Definition of Hell

[glockmail]

Hell is neither exothermic nor endothermic
because it does not exist physically.
Hell is a state of being, existing in eternity
an ever present now.
Souls are spiritual and have no mass.
Hell is that state of being of a soul post-life,
that is not in the presence of God, its creator.
Aware that it is not, and never will be,
as a result of its own choice not to be while alive.
It is the horrifying awareness of the ultimate failure
that is entirely one's own fault.
It is a state of desperation and the most profound and
forlorn loneliness that will never end.

G. Gordon Liddy http://www.liddyshow.com/mustread9.php

[82Marine89]

Hell is having to live with a liberal.

[Cheyenne]

Oops, 2 times

[Cheyenne]

Hell is neither exothermic nor endothermic
because it does not exist physically.
Hell is a state of being, existing in eternity
an ever present now.
Souls are spiritual and have no mass.
Hell is that state of being of a soul post-life,
that is not in the presence of God, its creator.
Aware that it is not, and never will be,
as a result of its own choice not to be while alive.
It is the horrifying awareness of the ultimate failure
that is entirely one's own fault.
It is a state of desperation and the most profound and
forlorn loneliness that will never end.

G. Gordon Liddy http://www.liddyshow.com/mustread9.php
I really hate to disagree with someone so well educated, but this can not be true. What kind of God would make a soul suffer for the rest of eternity?

Sin separates us from God. But we have the opportunity to rectify that. Someday we will not. When God comes we each will face Him & there are some that will realize that this separation is permanent. The Bible says those whose names that are not written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the "lake of fire", sin destroyed forever. If a soul would be tormented for eternity then there would be a remembrance of sin. The Bible says all will be erased. And a new heaven & new earth will be created.
You will find this in Revelation 20 & 21

[glockmail]

I really hate to disagree with someone so well educated, but this can not be true. What kind of God would make a soul suffer for the rest of eternity?

Sin separates us from God. But we have the opportunity to rectify that. Someday we will not. When God comes we each will face Him & there are some that will realize that this separation is permanent. The Bible says those whose names that are not written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the "lake of fire", sin destroyed forever. If a soul would be tormented for eternity then there would be a remembrance of sin. The Bible says all will be erased. And a new heaven & new earth will be created.
You will find this in Revelation 20 & 21 Revelation not being Gospel is open to wide interpretation.

[Cheyenne]

Revelation not being Gospel is open to wide interpretation.

How so?

While I will grant you that Revelation is hard to understand I think this is written so that the most dull can understand. I quote:
Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small & great stand before God; and the books were opened , which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books,according to their works..........verse 15; And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 I saw a new heave & a new earth; for the first heaven & the first earth were passed away......verse4 And God shall wipe away all tears fro their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain; for the former things are passed away.

Act 2:31 also says, He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

[gabosaurus]

Anyone who has been to Disneyland during the summer is well prepared for Hell.

[glockmail]

How so?

While I will grant you that Revelation is hard to understand I think this is written so that the most dull can understand. I quote:
Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small & great stand before God; and the books were opened , which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books,according to their works..........verse 15; And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 I saw a new heave & a new earth; for the first heaven & the first earth were passed away......verse4 And God shall wipe away all tears fro their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain; for the former things are passed away.

Act 2:31 also says, He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Personally I think that Revelation was written by someone on magic mushrooms. I just don't put a lot of faith in it.

That being said, your definition of hell, or Liddy's, or mine, are all just as valid.

[Cheyenne]

Personally I think that Revelation was written by someone on magic mushrooms. I just don't put a lot of faith in it.

That being said, your definition of hell, or Liddy's, or mine, are all just as valid.Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the image & Pharaoh's dream of the sheaves also seem strange, don't you think?

Still Act 2:31 says, He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell.......
And Matthew 10:28 says.....but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul & body in hell.

I don't think the point of what Hell really is is the issue. I just know I don't want to be there.

[glockmail]

Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the image & Pharaoh's dream of the sheaves also seem strange, don't you think?

Still Act 2:31 says, He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell.......
And Matthew 10:28 says.....but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul & body in hell.

I don't think the point of what Hell really is is the issue. I just know I don't want to be there.

I think a lot of it seems strange.

I've always thought of the soul as something that belongs to God and is borrowed to us. At the end of our lives He either gathers it back into His possession or rejects it. If rejected it still exists, but not in a desirable way.

[Cheyenne]

I think a lot of it seems strange.

I've always thought of the soul as something that belongs to God and is borrowed to us. At the end of our lives He either gathers it back into His possession or rejects it. If rejected it still exists, but not in a desirable way.
But that isn't in line with the character of God.

[glockmail]

But that isn't in line with the character of God.
Why not? Not that Revelation stuff again, I hope.

God made man in his own image, and man tosses worthless crap out after he's done with it, and covets the valuable stuff. At least I do.

[April15]

Arguing about a work of fiction like it was real! Here is the truth about this so called hell;
The following is supposedly an actual question given on a chemistry mid-term exam. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.

One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different Religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not
belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A"

[typomaniac]

That being said, your definition of hell, or Liddy's, or mine, are all just as valid.

Doesn't matter to me. I'll be forced to go to heaven, because hell could never cope with both of us.

[Cheyenne]

Why not? Not that Revelation stuff again, I hope. I'll answer this tomorrow; I just got in.


God made man in his own image,I understand this but will you please explain to me what you mean by this.
and man tosses worthless crap out after he's done with it, and covets the valuable stuff. At least I do.

[PostmodernProphet]

Here is the truth about this so called hell

lol.....

by the way, it has been established that your story was a fraud....in reality, Theresa turned out to be the professor's daughter and the student was failed......

[glockmail]

.....

I understand this but will you please explain to me what you mean by this. [and man tosses worthless crap out after he's done with it, and covets the valuable stuff. At least I do. ]

This was meant to be self-explanatory.

[Cheyenne]

[and man tosses worthless crap out after he's done with it, and covets the valuable stuff. At least I do. ]

This was meant to be self-explanatory.I understood the words; I am wondering where they fit in with Hell & our discussion. I missed something in the translation. :)

[glockmail]

I understood the words; I am wondering where they fit in with Hell & our discussion. I missed something in the translation. :) I don't think that God tortures the damned; he merely throws them out. The good souls he keeps. Fairly simple.

[Cheyenne]

I don't think that God tortures the damned; he merely throws them out. The good souls he keeps. Fairly simple.

I stated before this in not in line with the character of God.

But you have to believe in the Bible & God for this all to make sense. You can't stand here & say, "That's B.S. but I know nothing of what you're talking about."

The Bible says that "God is love", 1 John 4:8. That "He is merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness". Micah 7:18
"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him". 1 John 4:9
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son"......John 3:16

This is not a God who throws away souls.

[glockmail]

I stated before this in not in line with the character of God.

But you have to believe in the Bible & God for this all to make sense. You can't stand here & say, "That's B.S. but I know nothing of what you're talking about."

The Bible says that "God is love", 1 John 4:8. That "He is merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness". Micah 7:18
"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him". 1 John 4:9
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son"......John 3:16

This is not a God who throws away souls.

I understand your position, and I think that it is well founded, but my nterpretation of the above quotes is apparently different than yours. "slow to anger" means that He will get angry.

[Hagbard Celine]

I understand your position, and I think that it is well founded, but my nterpretation of the above quotes is apparently different than yours. "slow to anger" means that He will get angry.

You know, in the Middle Ages the idea arose of a "demiurge" or another mean-spirited God that created the Earth and used his wrath often to punish the peoples of the Earth that he created--as is written in the old Testament. They posited that Jesus was actually another God altogether. A "true God" who ousted the demiurge and saved the people from the demiurge's wrath. I think this is one of the founding principles of Zoroastrianism or at least the demiurge and the savior figure are the model figures for Angra Mainyu and Ahura Mazda--or visa versa. It's been awhile since Freshman History of Religion 1001.

[typomaniac]

You know, in the Middle Ages the idea arose of a "demiurge" or another mean-spirited God that created the Earth and used his wrath often to punish the peoples of the Earth that he created--as is written in the old Testament. They posited that Jesus was actually another God altogether. A "true God" who ousted the demiurge and saved the people from the demiurge's wrath. I think this is one of the founding principles of Zoroastrianism or at least the demiurge and the savior figure are the model figures for Angra Mainyu and Ahura Mazda--or visa versa. It's been awhile since Freshman History of Religion 1001.
Yeah, my sister used to drive one of those, and I borrowed it a few times. It didn't give me any demi-urges, though. :laugh2:

[glockmail]

You know, in the Middle Ages the idea arose of a "demiurge" or another mean-spirited God that created the Earth and used his wrath often to punish the peoples of the Earth that he created--as is written in the old Testament. They posited that Jesus was actually another God altogether. A "true God" who ousted the demiurge and saved the people from the demiurge's wrath. I think this is one of the founding principles of Zoroastrianism or at least the demiurge and the savior figure are the model figures for Angra Mainyu and Ahura Mazda--or visa versa. It's been awhile since Freshman History of Religion 1001. My belief is that not all of God's works are written down in the OT. Just like turning on the news today the view of the world is much more violent and cruel than it actually is.

[April15]

lol.....

by the way, it has been established that your story was a fraud....in reality, Theresa turned out to be the professor's daughter and the student was failed......An addendum! Nice. I like it.

[gabosaurus]

The Bible is not the actual verbatim Word of God. I don't recall ever hearing of anyone following Jesus around, taking notes for later publication. Jesus never held a press conference.
That is why the Bible has so many different interpretations. The stories were passed down through time and eventually written down.

[Cheyenne]

The Bible is not the actual verbatim Word of God. I don't recall ever hearing of anyone following Jesus around, taking notes for later publication. Jesus never held a press conference.
That is why the Bible has so many different interpretations. The stories were passed down through time and eventually written down.

And your point is?

I will agree that there are some things that are hard to understand. But the theme of the Bible is not. It doesn't take an Einstein to understand that.



I understand your position, and I think that it is well founded, but my nterpretation of the above quotes is apparently different than yours. "slow to anger" means that He will get angry.

Sure He gets angry; it 's an emotion from the author of emotions. I'm sure He laughs & cries as well.
That still doesn't mean He doesn't love; or that He discards souls

[PostmodernProphet]

The Bible is not the actual verbatim Word of God. I don't recall ever hearing of anyone following Jesus around, taking notes for later publication. Jesus never held a press conference.
That is why the Bible has so many different interpretations. The stories were passed down through time and eventually written down.

okay, so you got these guys, like John and the others, who spent three years following Jesus around the eastern shores of the Mediterranean, listening to what he had to say.....and after he dies and comes back from the dead, people ask them about him....because they knew him.....and they write down what they want people to understand about Jesus, what they believe Jesus wants people to understand about him.....

you could sit down and read the gospel of John out loud in what, an hour?....two hours...and this is a summary of everything that happened in three years?.......either life with Christ was rather repetitive, or we are getting only a few highlights......Matthew, et al, wrote down what they believed important, with, I suspect and believe, some prompting on the part of God to not overlook anything HE thought was important....all four had different perspectives and purposes.....Matthew was writing primarily to a Hebrew audience.....Mark to a Greek audience.....Luke was trying to set down a more historical, chronological presentation....and John's goal was to prove the divinity of Jesus....

so is the Bible the verbatim word of God?.....I think it is precisely, word for word, what God wanted communicated to us....

[Cheyenne]

......so is the Bible the verbatim word of God?.....I think it is precisely, word for word, what God wanted communicated to us....I really think this is an awesome post PmP, but verbatim......I believe that the Bible says what God wants it to say. But to choose the actual words; I'm not so sure. You have 40 different authors; each speaking the language of their time. That is why you must study the Scriptures. But I will reiterate, the theme of the Bible is VERY easy to understand.

[PostmodernProphet]

But to choose the actual words; I'm not so sure.

let's put it this way.....I suspect if there were some words God didn't want in there, they wouldn't have found their way in.......but do I think God was dictating it?.....no.....

[typomaniac]

let's put it this way.....I suspect if there were some words God didn't want in there, they wouldn't have found their way in.......but do I think God was dictating it?.....no.....

To say nothing of the fact that a lot of changes were made during the first council of Nicea that were clearly intended just to further the political agenda of the church at that time.

[nevadamedic]

Hell is neither exothermic nor endothermic
because it does not exist physically.
Hell is a state of being, existing in eternity
an ever present now.
Souls are spiritual and have no mass.
Hell is that state of being of a soul post-life,
that is not in the presence of God, its creator.
Aware that it is not, and never will be,
as a result of its own choice not to be while alive.
It is the horrifying awareness of the ultimate failure
that is entirely one's own fault.
It is a state of desperation and the most profound and
forlorn loneliness that will never end.

G. Gordon Liddy http://www.liddyshow.com/mustread9.php

After reading the title of this thread I thought it was about a Liberal getting the Presidency.

[Cheyenne]

let's put it this way.....I suspect if there were some words God didn't want in there, they wouldn't have found their way in.......but do I think God was dictating it?.....no.....I believe you are correct.
The Bible says that woe be to anyone who adds words or takes away words from the Bible.

[PostmodernProphet]

To say nothing of the fact that a lot of changes were made during the first council of Nicea that were clearly intended just to further the political agenda of the church at that time.

you could say that.....wouldn't be true, but you could say that.....

[typomaniac]

you could say that.....wouldn't be true, but you could say that.....

And even you aren't THAT old! ;)

[Pale Rider]

I don't think that God tortures the damned; he merely throws them out. The good souls he keeps. Fairly simple.

He doesn't. The devil does.

[PostmodernProphet]

And even you aren't THAT old! ;)

when God created grass we argued about color.....he wanted green......

[Cheyenne]

when God created grass we argued about color.....he wanted green......We see who won. :lmao:

[-Cp]

Actually nobody has mentioned that the word hell - in every single use of it - was a word for some other Earthly place:

In the old testament the word was Sheol - meaning the Grave

The new testament uses Gehenna - a garbage dump outside of town

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of the creation of such an "eternal place" - don't you think if the majority of people ever created were damned thru Adam's sin to spend eternity in it, that the Bible would talk about when it was made?

[typomaniac]

Actually nobody has mentioned that the word hell - in every single use of it - was a word for some other Earthly place:

In the old testament the word was Sheol - meaning the Grave

The new testament uses Gehenna - a garbage dump outside of town

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of the creation of such an "eternal place" - don't you think if the majority of people ever created were damned thru Adam's sin to spend eternity in it, that the Bible would talk about when it was made?By that logic, hell would have been empty when it was made, so why talk about it? :laugh2:

[5stringJeff]

Actually nobody has mentioned that the word hell - in every single use of it - was a word for some other Earthly place:

In the old testament the word was Sheol - meaning the Grave

The new testament uses Gehenna - a garbage dump outside of town

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of the creation of such an "eternal place" - don't you think if the majority of people ever created were damned thru Adam's sin to spend eternity in it, that the Bible would talk about when it was made?

That's not correct. Jesus mentioned several times that there was a place of "eternal" punishment, most famously in the parable about Lazarus and the rich man.

[PostmodernProphet]

parable

and were any of his other parables literally true?........

[5stringJeff]

and were any of his other parables literally true?........

The parable is about a person in heaven having a conversation with a person in hell. Like all other parables, it is a story based on real circumstances. For instance, in the Parable of the Sower, in which a farmer scatters seeds, which then fall in four different places, there are farmers in the real world, who actually scatter seeds. Likewise, in this parable, there is actually a heaven and a hell, even though the conversation did not necessarily take place.

And, if that's not enough for you, here are two verses in which Jesus clearly speaks of eternal punishment:

Matthew 18:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+18:8&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

Matthew 25:46 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+25:46&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

[PostmodernProphet]

Likewise, in this parable, there is actually a heaven and a hell

I take it then that you assume hell is a place within view of heaven, so that the thirsty can see folks sitting on God's lap?....

a parable is a literary devise, like a fable, which teaches by means of something simply understood......it doesn't require there to have actually been a farmer sowing seeds, or traveler who was really beaten on a mountain road.....or a son who was really prodigal.....

[5stringJeff]

I take it then that you assume hell is a place within view of heaven, so that the thirsty can see folks sitting on God's lap?....

a parable is a literary devise, like a fable, which teaches by means of something simply understood......it doesn't require there to have actually been a farmer sowing seeds, or traveler who was really beaten on a mountain road.....or a son who was really prodigal.....

Parables are stories, based on the real world, or potentially real situations, so that people can relate to the story.

Regardless, there are several verses in the New Testament which specifically mention eternal punishment.

[-Cp]

That's not correct. Jesus mentioned several times that there was a place of "eternal" punishment, most famously in the parable about Lazarus and the rich man.

EDIT: Do not post articles without links.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

If you are to take the Bible accounts literal in every aspect, which I do know that they are literal for first is the natural and then that which is spiritual then I assume you believe that the Lamb of God is a literal four footed beast? If we are to take that spiritual and say well it is a reference to his gentle spirit and nature then how are we to take A lake that burns with fire? Do we just pick and choose throughout the Word of God what is meant literal and what can only be symbolic?

Everyone who dies will go to hell. There is a hell, a hades, shoel, the unseen place.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died, and was buried; and in Hell
(Hadees) he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Luke 16:22-23.

If this is a literal history, as is sometimes claimed, of the after-death experiences of two persons, then the good are carried about in Abraham's bosom; and the wicked are actually roasted in fire, and cry for water to cool their parched tongues. If these are figurative, then Abraham, Lazarus, Dives and the gulf, and every part of the account, are features of a picture, an allegory, as much as the fire and Abraham's bosom. If it be history, then the good are obliged to hear the appeals of the damned for that help which they cannot bestow! They are so near together as to be able to converse across the gulf, not wide but deep.

The story is not fact, but a parable. This is denied by some Christians, who ask, does not our Savior say: "There was a certain rich man?" etc. True, but all his parables begin in the same way, "A certain rich man had two sons,"
and the like. In Judges ix, we read: "The trees went forth, on a time, to anoint a king over them, and they said to the olive tree, reign thou over us." This language is positive, and yet it describes something that never could have occurred. All fables, parables, and other fictitious accounts which are related to illustrate important truths have this positive form, to give force, point, life-likeness to the lessons they inculcate.

That this is only a parable and not a real history of what was actually done, is evident from the circumstances of it, namely, the rich man lifting up his eyes in Hell, and seeing Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, his discourse with Abraham, his complaint of being tormented in flames, and his desire that Lazarus might be sent to cool his tongue, and if all this be confessedly parable, why should the rest be accounted history? To them who regard the narrative a reality it must stand as an unanswerable argument for the purgatory.

We give an indubitable proof that this is a parable. The Jews have a book, written during the Babylonish Captivity, entitled Gemara Babylonicum, containing doctrines entertained by Pagans concerning the future state, not recognized by the followers of Moses. This story is founded on heathen views. They were not obtained from the Bible, for the Old Testament contains nothing resembling them. They were among those traditions which our Savior condemned when he told the Scribes and Pharisees, "Ye make the word of God of none effect through your traditions," and when he said to his disciples, "Beware of the leaven, or doctine, of the Pharisees."

Our Savior seized the imagery of this story, not to indorse its truth, but just as we now relate any other fable. He related it as found in the Gemara, not for the story's sake, but to convey a moral to his hearers; and the Scribes and Pharisees to whom he addressed this and the five preceding stories, felt--as we shall see--the force of its application to them.
The Jews did not, indeed, adopt the pagan fables on this subject, nor did they express themselves entirely, in the same manner; but the general grain of thinking, in both, came pretty much to coincide. The Greek Hadees they found well adapted to express the Hebrew Sheol. This they came to conceive as including different sorts of habitations, for ghosts of different characters.
Now as nothing resembling these ideas is found in the Old Testament, where did the Jews obtain it, if not from the heathen?

It must be acknowledged that our Lord's descriptions are not drawn from the writings of the Old Testament, but have a remarkable affinity to the descriptions which the Grecian poets have given. They represent the abodes of the blest as lying contiguous to the region of the damned, and separated only by a great impassable gulf in such sort that the ghosts could talk to one another from the opposite banks.

If from these resemblances it is thought the parable is formed on the Grecian mythology, it will not at all follow that our Lord approved of what the common people thought or spoke concerning these matters, agreeably to the notions of Greeks. In parables, provided the doctrines inculcated are strictly true, the terms in which they are inculcated may be such as are most familiar to the people, and the images made use of are such as they are best acquainted with.

But if it were a literal history, nothing could be gained for the terrible doctrine of endless torment. It would oblige us to believe in literal fire after death, but there is not a word to show that such fire would never go out. We have heard it claimed that the punishment of the rich man must be endless, because there was a gulffixed so that those who desired to, could not cross it. But were this a literal account, it would not follow that the gulf would last alway.

For are we not assured that the time is coming when "every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low?" Isa. 11:4. When every valley is exalted, what becomes of the great gulf? And then there is not a word said of the duration of the sufferings of the rich man. If the account be a history is must not militate against the promise of "The restitution of all things spoken by the mouth of all God's holy prophets since the world began." There is not a word intimating that the rich man's torment was never to cease. So the doctrine of endless misery is, after all, not in the least taught here. The most that can be claimed is that the consequences of sin extend into the future life, and this is a doctrine that we believe just as strongly as can any one, though we do not believe they will be endless, nor do we believe that the doctrine is taught in this parable, nor in the Bible use of the word Hell.

You may quote the parable of Rich man and Lazarus (which was the emancipation from the Tartarus theory) as the one instance in which our Lord professedly opens the secrets of the next world, that he there represents the Rich Man as still Abraham's child, under no despair, not cut off from Abraham's sympathy, and under a direct moral training of which you see the fruit. He is gradually weaned from the selfish desire of indulgence for himself, to love and care for his brethren, a divine step forward in his life, which of itself proves him not to be lost. The impossibility of Lazarus getting to him, or vice versa, expresses plainly the great truth that each being is where he ought to be at that time, interchange of place, (i.e., of spiritual state) is impossible. But it says nothing against Dives rising out of his torment, when he has learnt the lesson of it, and going where he ought to go. So that on the theory that this is a literal account, it affords no evidence of endless torment.

But allowing for a moment that this is intended to represent a scene in the spirit world, what a representation we have! The Rich Man is dwelling in a world of fire in the company of lost spirits, hardened by the depravity that must possess the residents of that world, and yet, yearning with compassion for those on earth. Not totally depraved, not harboring evil thoughts, but benevolent, humane. Instead of being loyal to the wicked world in which he dwells, as any one bad enough to go there should be, he actually tries to prevent migration thither from earth, while Lazarus is entirely indifferent to everybody but himself. The Rich Man seems to have more mercy and compassion than does Lazarus.

But what does the parable teach? That the Jewish nation, and especially the Scribes and Pharisees were about to die as a power, as a church, as a controlling influence in the world; while the common people among them, and the Gentiles outside of them, were to be exalted in the new order of things.
The details of the parable show this: "There was a certain rich man clothed in purple and fine linen." In these first words, by describing their very costume, the Savior fixed the attention of his hearers on the Jewish priesthood. They were, emphatically, the rich men of that nation. His description of the beggar was equally graphic. He lay at the gate of the rich, only asking to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the table. Thus dependent were the common people, and the Gentiles, on the scribes and Pharisees. We remember how Christ once rebuked them for shutting up the kingdom of heaven against these.

They lay at the gates of the Jewish heirarchy, for the Gentiles were literally restricted to the outer court of the temple. Hence in Rev. xi:12, we read; "But the court, which is without the temple, leave out, and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles." They could only walk the outer court, or lie at the gate. The brief, graphic descriptions given by our Savior, at once showed his hearers that he was describing those two classes, the Jewish priesthood and nation, on the one hand, and the common people, Jews and Gentiles, on the other.

The rich man died and was buried. This class died officially, nationally, and its power departed. The kingdom of God was taken from them, and conferred on others. The beggar died. The Gentiles, publicans and sinners, were translated into the kingdom of God's dear son, where is neither Jew nor Greek, but where all are one in Christ Jesus. This is the meaning of "Abraham's bosom." They accepted the true faith and so became one with faithful Abraham. Abraham is called the father of the faithful, and the beggar is represented to have gone to Abraham's bosom, to denote the fact, which is now history, that the common people and Gentiles accepted Christianity and have since continued Christian nations, enjoying the blessings of the Christian faith.

What is meant by the torment of the rich man? The misery of those proud men, when, soon after, their land was captured, and their city and temple possessed by barbarians, and they scattered like chaff before the wind--a condition in which they have continued from that day to this. All efforts to bless them with Christianity have proved unavailing. At this very moment there is a great gulf fixed so that there is no passing to and fro. And observe, the Jews do not desire the gospel. Nor did the rich man ask to enter Abraham's bosom with Lazarus. He only wished Lazarus to alleviate his sufferings by dipping his finger in water and cooling his tongue. It is so with the Jews today. They do not desire the gospel; they only ask those among whom they sojourn to tolerate them and soften the hardships that accompany their wanderings. The Jewich church and nation are now dead. Once they were exalted to heaven, but now they are thrust down to Hadees, the kingdom of death, and the gulf that yawns between them and the Gentiles shall not be abolished till the fullness of the Genitles shall come in, and "then Israel shall be saved."

Lightfoot says: "The main scope and design of it seems this: to hint the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, who, though they had Moses and the prophets, did not believe them, nay would not believe though one (even
Jesus) arose from the dead."

The rich man, or the Jews, were and are in the same Hell in which David was when he said: "The pains of Hell (Hadees) got hold on me, I found trouble and sorrow," and "thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Hell." Not in endless woe in the future world, but in misery and suffering in this.

But this is not a final condition. Wherever we locate it, it must end. Paul asks the Romans, "Have they (the Jews) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid! but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles."
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness is in part happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved. As it is written, There shall come out of Zion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob, for this is my covenant with them when I shall take away their sins.

In brief terms then, we may say that this is a fictitious story or parable describing the fate in this world of the Jewish and Gentile people of our Savior's times, and has not the slightest reference to the world after death, nor to the fate of mankind in that world.

Let the reader observe that the rich man, being in Hadees, was in a place of temporary detention only. Whether this be a literal story or a parable, his confinement is not to be an endless one.
This is demonstrated in a two-fold manner:
1. Death and Hadees will deliver up their occupants. Rev. 20:13.
2. Hadees is to be destroyed. I Cor. 15:55; Rev. 20:14.
Therefore Hadees is of temporary duration. The Rich Man was not in a place of endless torment. Whatever the state of either the righteous or the wicked may be, will in Hadees, that state will certainly cease, and be exchanged for another at the general resurrection.

Thus the New Testament usage agrees exactly with the Old Testament.
Primarily, literally, Hadees is death, the grave, and figuratively, it is destruction. It is in this world, and is to end. The last time it is referred to (Rev.xx:14) as well as in other instances (Hosea 13:14; I Cor.
15:55) its destruction is positively announced.
So that the instances (sixty-four) in the Old Testament, and (eleven) in the New; in all seventy-five in the Bible, all perfectly agree in representing the word Hell, derived from the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hadees, as being in this world, and of temproary duration.

[5stringJeff]

The following is an excerpt (with emphasis added) from:
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm

I should add that just because I advocate the Biblical position on hell (i.e. that it is a place of eternal, conscious punishment) doesn't mean I enjoy defending the position. I would rather that no one ended up there.

----------------
The words associated with Hell

Gehenna
In the OT, the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom' meaning "Valley of Hinnom." It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called 'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 32:25)(1). This is probably why in the NT the word came to be associated with destruction by fire. The word 'gehenna' is found in the NT 12 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In the NT, "gehenna" is used of a condition and never of a place.

Hades
This word only occurs in the NT, ten times, and corresponds to the OT word "sheol." Jesus uses the word four times: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23. The other six occur in Acts 2:27,31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13,14.
It was probably the "subterranean abode of all the dead until the judgment. It was divided into two departments, paradise or Abraham's bosom for the good, and Gehenna or hell for the bad."(2) In particular, in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man of (Luke 16:19-31), it is the place of the conscious dead who are wicked.

Sheol
"The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root "to make hollow," and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the grave.(3) It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35; Num. 16:30,33; Psalm 16:10, etc. Sheol has many meanings in scripture: the grave, the underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15,17; Psalm 86:13).

Is Hell Eternal Conscious Torment?

There are some Christian groups and many cults that deny the idea that hell, in the general sense, means eternal, conscious punishment. Some maintain that God's eternal punishment is annihilation, or non-existence. Others say it is temporal and that eventually all will be saved out of hell. Perhaps the most common objection is that a loving God would never punish people in eternal torment. We agree that God is love (1 John 4:8), but He is also just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and eternal (Psalm 90:2; 1 Tim. 1:17 ). God punishes the evil doer (Isaiah 11:13) and this punishment will be eternal. But the question remains. Is this eternal punishment conscious or not?
There are verses that can be interpreted to support the idea that the dead are not conscious after death: (Ecc. 9:5 - the dead know nothing(4) and Psalm 146:4 - their thoughts perish, are good examples.) Other verses compare the dead to sleep: Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:1-6; 1 Thess. 4:13, etc. But these latter verses are merely comparing the similarity between the appearance of the dead and the appearance of someone sleeping.

The Dead are Conscious After Death

The wicked descend alive into Sheol
Num. 16:30, "But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord . . . 33So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly."

Cast to outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Those cast into the fire suffer consciously
Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

Cast into a tormenting fire
Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The word 'eternal' in both places is "aionios" which means 1)without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2)without beginning; 3)without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word 'punishment' is the word kolasis and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering - 'to punish, punishment.'"(5)

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man

In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.
Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question then is, if it is? What is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.


Conclusion

Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.


Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30"And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell," (Matt. 5:29-30).

[gabosaurus]

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa137/gabriella8406/DSC01056.jpg

[-Cp]

The following is an excerpt (with emphasis added) from:
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm

I should add that just because I advocate the Biblical position on hell (i.e. that it is a place of eternal, conscious punishment) doesn't mean I enjoy defending the position. I would rather that no one ended up there.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm

"Hell" Is Not an Old Testament doctrine:

Popular myth : Hell is an established Biblical doctrine that is in the Bible from start to finish. This is not true! Two thirds of the Bible (the Old Testament) does not mention Hell at all. ("Sheol," the Old Testament word that is sometimes translated as Hell, only means "grave" by definition, and it is where everyone in the Old Testament went when they died--good or evil, Jew or Gentile). Thus the Old Testament does not contain the concept of Hell!

Think about it...

If Hell is real, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was death- -not "eternal life" in fire and brimstone.

If Hell is real, why wasn't Cain warned about it, or Sodom and Gomorrah , or any of those who committed the earliest recorded "sins?"

If Hell is real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings in this lifetime.

If Hell is real, why are its roots in paganism, rather than the Bible? Many nations surrounding Israel in the Old Testament believed in Hell-like punishment in the afterlife, for they served bloodthirsty and evil "gods," while Israel simply taught the grave (sheol) and a hope of a resurrection. If Hell is real, why was the revelation of it first given to pagan nations, instead of God's covenant people? Did God expect Israel to learn about the afterlife from the Pagan Gentiles? If so, why did He repeatedly warn Israel to not learn of their ways?

If Hell is real, why did God tell the Jews that burning their children alive in the fire to the false god Molech, (in the valley of Gehenna ) was so detestable to Him? God said that such a thing "never even entered His mind" (Jer. 32:35). How could God say such a thing to Israel , if He has plans to burn alive a good majority of His own creation in a spiritual and eternal Gehenna of His own making?

**FACT: The King James Bible erroneously translates the word "Sheol" as Hell a total of 31 times in the Old Testament, thus setting a foundation for that doctrine in the New Testament as well as the majority of Bible translations to follow the KJV. Even so, most new translations have completely eliminated Hell from the Old Testament, as honest and better scholarship has demanded. The Jewish version of the Old Testament (the Tanakh) has no concept of Hell in it. The importance of this fact cannot be over-emphasized. If a doctrine does not appear as seed form in the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, it cannot fairly be taught as a major biblical doctrine, if indeed it can be taught as biblical at all!

Hell Is Not a New Testament Doctrine:

Popular myth: Jesus spoke of Hell more than He did of Heaven. This is not true! Jesus warned the Jews many times of impending destruction, both nationally and individually. He used several different terms to refer to punishment/destruction, some of which were erroneously translated as the same word, "Hell" by Bible translators. We do not deny that God will indeed judge the whole world, nor do we wish to make light of His judgments. We are challenging the belief that His judgment on sin and unbelief is eternal torment/Hell and never-ending separation from God. Certainly, Jesus spent a lot of his ministry warning people to repent or reap the consequences, (particularly "Gehenna.") But could we be reading more into His warnings than He originally intended?

Think about it.......

If Hell is real, why were most of the warnings pertaining to punishment/Gehenna directed to Israel , particularly the Lord's own disciples as well as the Pharisees? The first great cluster of references to Gehenna, are found in the Sermon on the Mount (Mat 5:22, 29, 30), Jesus' great sermon to His disciples in which He warned that one was in danger of Gehenna for the likes of calling someone a fool. This is a far cry from our modern Evangelical interpretation that says not accepting Jesus as your Savior is what sends someone to Hell. Are we perhaps missing the symbolism that Jesus originally intended?

If Hell is real, aren't we taking verses out of context when we warn non-Jewish sinners who are not part of the Mosaic covenant God made with the nation of Israel about consequences for sin which have nothing to do with them since they are not under that covenant?

Since the concept of Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? And if He was introducing the subject for the first time, why did He do it so casually, as though His listeners already understood what He was talking about?

If Hell is real, since some English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word "Gehenna," in the New Testament, why didn't this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form "ga ben Hinnom" in the Old Testament?

If the Jews did not understand "Gehenna" as a symbol of everlasting torture, but rather as a place of shame, filth, and defilement (where Israel participated in the grossest form of idol worship), why does modern theology ascribe more to the word than the original meaning did? The teaching of Gehenna has evolved in Jewish teachings to include punishment in the afterlife; but even today, Gehenna still does not mean "endless" punishment to the Jews.

If Hell is real how could the Apostle Paul (who was especially commissioned by God to preach the gospel to the nations) say that he had declared the entire counsel of God (Acts 20:27), when indeed he never warned of "Hell" in any of his letters? If Hell is real, wouldn't Paul, of all people, warn of it repeatedly?

If Hell is real, the sin/death of Adam has had a far more powerful effect on the world than the resurrection life of Christ! And yet Paul declares in Romans 5 that Christ's victory is far greater than Adam's transgression! Listen to Paul's confidence in the work of Christ! If Paul believed in eternal hell for the majority of men, how could he write the following verses?

"Just as the result of one trespass (Adam's) was condemnation for all men , so also the result of one act of righteousness (Christ's) was justification that brings life for all men . For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ( Romans 5:18,19).

"Since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4;10).

(The above verses are just a few of the many verses where Paul writes of a pre-eminent Christ that far transcends the traditional Christian view. This article is full of many more New Testament references by Paul that display his views of the Christ triumphant, unlimited, all-powerful, all-conquering, and victorious).

If Hell is real, why is it that the only time Paul even mentioned "Hell" in any of his epistles, was declare the triumph of Christ over it? (1 Corinthians 15:55). The word "Grave" in the passage is the Greek word "Hades."

If Hell is real, why is it not mentioned once in the book of Acts in any the evangelistic sermons that were recorded by the early Apostles?

If Hell is real why do some of the best Bible scholars and Bible teachers say it is not in the Greek or Hebrew text? (William Barclay, John A.T. Robinson, Lightfoot, Westcott, F.W. Farrar, Marvin Vincent, etc.)

If Hell is real, why does the word itself come from the Teutonic "Hele" (goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe ). The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.

FACT: The apocryphal books of the intertestimental period had a tremendous impact on the Jews in the time of Christ. It is from these books, especially the book of Enoch, that many of the Jewish myths and fables concerning Hell, heaven, demons and angels and many other fables first became a part of Judaism and from there became a part of Christianity. The myths and fables of these books came from Pagan influences (namely Zoroastrianism), during and after the Babylonian captivity of Israel . In fact, Zoroastrianism looks more like modern Christianity in many ways than ancient Judiasm does!

If Hell is real, why did Paul warn Timothy repeatedly to stay away from Jewish myths and fables, the likes of which were influencing many in the early church? Rather than affirming such doctrines, Paul declares them to be profane fables. (1 Tim. 1:1; Tit. 1:14)

Hell Contradicts The Work of the Messiah:

Popular myth: Jesus came to save the sinner from his destination of everlasting Hell. Not exactly true! Hell was never a place that the Jews were hoping to be saved from, since they didn't even believe in it! But they did need to be saved from their sins and consequences of them; namely death. Jesus came as the Anointed One to fulfill all of God's plan for the earth-that through Him might come the salvation, deliverance of sin, peace, kingdom of God and all that God had promised through the Old Testament scriptures. There is much we can say here, but for the sake of brevity we will limit our points to a few key passages. Please take the time to look up the verses that are referenced.

Think about it...

If Hell is real, why does Psalm 22 (one of the most prophetic passages in scripture concerning the Messiah) promise that because of the cross, " All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD , and all the families of the nations will worship before You. For the kingdom is the LORD'S and He rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship , all those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, even he who cannot keep his soul alive " (Psalm 22:27-29 NASB).

If Hell is real, did Jesus fail in His mission? He said, "I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (John 12:47).

If Hell is real and most find their way to it, was Jesus lying when He said if He was lifted up (crucified) that He would "draw" ("drag" in the original Greek word, "helkyo") all mankind unto Himself? (John 12:32)

If Hell is real and eternal, how can the Scriptures speak of the gathering of all things into Christ? (Eph. 1:10)

If Hell is real and eternal, how can all things be subdued unto Christ? (1 Corinthians 15:28, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 2:8).

If Hell is real and eternal, how can it be that the scriptures promise that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord? (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10).

If Hell is real and eternal, how will Jesus ever see the travail of His soul and be satisfied (Isaiah 53:11)? If the traditional understanding is correct, most of those He came to save will never experience His salvation. Do we believe that this would be satisfying to Jesus?

If Hell is real, and God sent Jesus to save people from it, can we really say that the will and pleasure of God has prospered in His hand, since, according to traditional theology, only a few will ever be saved? (Isaiah 53:10, and 55:11).

If Hell is real, and the devil is the one who deceives people into going there, isn't he ultimately the winner in the war for souls? After all, traditional interpretation of the Bible says that more people will end up in Hell than in Heaven. If so, how can we really call Satan the defeated enemy and Christ the victor?

If Hell is real and most of mankind will remain in an eternal deathlike state of torment with no chance to repent or escape, how exactly are we to understand and rejoice in the fact that Jesus destroyed death and him that had the power of death (Satan)? (Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8, Hosea 13:14, 1 Corinthians 15:55, 1 Corinthians 15:26 etc.)

If Hell is eternal, how can the increase of Christ's government and of peace have no end? (Isaiah 9:7).

FACT: The term "saved" has evolved in Christianity to mean something different than it did to the original readers and hearers of Scripture. The Greek words, "sozo" and "soteria" embrace the broad meaning of being rescued, delivered, healed and saved from danger. These words were applied in a variety of ways throughout the New Testament. There is much more to the salvation of Christ than most Christians know. Sadly, much of the church is robbed of fullness of their salvation by embracing a limited and futuristic view of what it actually means-- (i.e. "going to Heaven when they die").

Popular Myth: "Eternity" is a theme that is throughout the entire Bible, including eternal punishment. Not exactly true! We are not denying that the New Testament is full of warnings of judgment, and that the words, "everlasting" and "eternal" appear often in most translations. However, a careful study of the words that are translated to mean forever or everlasting, will prove that they have been mistranslated. The question is not whether or not God will punish sin and rebellion, but rather how He does it, and for what purpose and how long the correc5ion lasts.

Think about it..

If Hell is forever, why is the Hebrew word Olam (which has been translated to mean "eternal/forever") used in so many verses where it clearly does not mean "everlasting? A few examples: "Everlasting" is applied to the priesthood of Aaron; to the statutes of Moses; to the mountains and hills; and to the doors of the Jewish temple, to the length of time that reproach and shame should be upon the Jews. The word "forever" is applied to the duration of man's earthly existence; to the time a child was to abide in the temple; to the continuance of Gehazi's leprosy; to the to the duration of a king's life; to the time a servant was to abide with his master; to the duration of the Jewish temple; to the time David was to be king over Israel; to the throne of Solomon; to the stones that were set up at Jordan; and to the time Jonah was in the fish's belly. It should be obvious from the context that olam merely referred to an indefinite period of time--not forever!

Aion and related words ( aionian and aionios ) are the Greek equivalents of olam . Aion, literally means "age," from which we get our English word, "eon." Aion/age/eon, is merely a period of time. "Aionian and Aionios" are words that refer to the ages (plural) or pertaining to the ages. As long as time is being measured, it cannot be referring to eternity, which is a realm beyond the measurement of time. If "Hell" is forever, why is it described by words that pertain to the ages?

If the Greek word Aion and its derivatives mean eternal as some Bible scholars insist, why did contemporary Greek usage of it, at the time the New Testament was written, not carry with it the idea of endless eternity? (Works by Plato, Aristotle, Homer, Hippocrates and many others use these words in a limited, not an eternal sense).

If Hell is forever, how do we explain the fact that aion/olam did not mean eternal/unending to the original writers and hearers of Scripture?

FACT: Some would argue that if aionian and related words do not mean eternal, then God cannot be eternal, for these words also describe Him. To this we say, that just because God is described as the God of the eons, does not mean that He is not the God who also transcends the eons. In the same way, just because He is called the God of Israel , does not also mean that He is not the God of all the other nations. Also, there are other Greek words used to refer to the unending power and life of God. They are, aptharsia/apthartos, which means imperishableness and immortality; amarantinos/amarantos which mean unfading; and akatalytos , which means indestructable. They are usually translated as immortal, or incorruptible. Please refer to the following verses for reference: Hebrews 7:15-16, 1 Peter 1:3-4, 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 1:23, 1 Corinthians 9:25, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, Romans 2:7, 1 Corinthians 15:42, 2 Timothy 1:10, and 1 Timothy 6:16.

Popular Myth: One's fate is sealed after death. If this is true, how do we deal with the following scriptures that indicate the opposite?

Think about it...

"Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, He devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him" (2 Samuel 14:14).

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: He bringeth down to the grave (sheol), and bringeth up." 1 Samuel 2: 6

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand" (Deuteronomy 32:39).

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave (Sheol/Hell); I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave (Sheol/Hell), I will be your destruction!" (Hosea 13:11-14).

"For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though He brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is His unfailing love. For He does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men. (Lam 3:31-33)

"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny" (Matthew 5:25-26).

If Hell is a place of no escape, why did the early church teach Jesus went to Hell (Hades), preached to them and led captivity captive? (Eph. 4:8,9; Psalm 68:18; 1 Peter 3:18-20)

If Hell lasts forever, why the Psalmist confidently speak again and again about being rescued from it (sheol)? (Psalms 16:10, 30:2-3, Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 116:3-8, 139:8).

If Hell is real, how can Solomon teach that the spirit of man will return to the God Who gave it? (Ecc 12:7).

If the grave settled the matter forever, why did the early Christians offer up prayers for the dead? Why were they baptized for the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:29).



"Hell" Was Not a Doctrine of the Early Church:

Popular myth: Universalism was recently introduced to Christianity in the 1800's as the church became more liberal and modern and began to abandon their true biblical foundation. This is not true! A belief in the restitution of all things was a standard view in the early church, held by the majority of early Christians. It has also been held by a minority throughout all of church history even during the Dark Ages.

Think about it..

If Hell was real, why did the first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, contain the tenet of universal salvation?

If Hell was real, why did the first complete presentation of Christianity (Origen, 220 A.D.) contain the doctrine of universal salvation?

If Hell was real, why do neither the Apostles Creed, nor the Nicean Creed, two foundational "doctrinal statements" for the early church, contain the concept of Hell?

If Hell was real, why did Church leaders as late as the fourth century AD acknowledge that the majority of Christians believed in the salvation of all mankind?

If Hell was real why did the early church appoint an avowed universalist as the President of the second council of the church of Constantinope in the fourth century? (Gregory Nazianzen, 325-381).

If Hell was real why did not a single Church council for the first five hundred years condemn Universalism as heresy considering the fact that they made many declarations of heresy on other teachings?

If Hell was real why didn't Epiphanius (c. 315-403) the "hammer of heretics" who listed 80 heresies of his time not list universalism among those heresies?

If Hell was real, since most historians would acknowledge today that Origen was perhaps the most outstanding example of universalism in the church, when Methodius, Eusibius, Pamphilus, Marcellus, Eustathius, and Jerome made their lists of Origen's heresies, why wasn't universalism among them?

If Hell was real and found in the original Greek manuscripts of the Bible, why is it that it was primarily those church leaders who either couldn't read Greek (For example, Minucius Felix and Tertullian), or hated Greek as in the case of Augustine, that the doctrine of Hell was advocated? Those early church leaders familiar with the Greek and Hebrew (the original languages of the Bible) saw universal salvation in those texts. Those who advocated Hell got it from the Latin, not from the original Greek and Hebrew. Who would more likely be correct--those who could read the original languages of the Bible or those who read a Latin translation made by one man (Jerome)?

If Hell was real then why did four out of six theological schools from 170 AD to 430 AD teach universal salvation while the only one that taught Hell was in Carthage, Africa, again were Latin was the teaching language, not Greek?

If Hell was real and a serious heresy, why was it not until the sixth century when Justinian, a half-pagan emperor, tried to make universalism a heresy? Interestingly, most historians will acknowledge that Justinian's reign was among the most cruel and ruthless.

*The historical facts documented in the above section can all be verified through the books, "Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Early Church for the First 500 Years" by J.W. Hanson and "The History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution" by Edward Beecher.

Hell does not reflect the heart of God:

Popular myth: The justice of God demands a place like Hell in which the wicked shall be eternally punished for their sins. Not true! The justice of God demanded a perfect sacrifice for sin, and that man was Christ Jesus. The justice of God will certainly come to every person, and God may deal severely with our sins as He subdues and gathers all things to Christ, but to punish people endlessly for crimes committed in a short human lifespan defies all logic and justice. How is it just to have unending punishment for offenses that have limits?

Think about it....

If Hell is real and all things were made for God's pleasure (Rev. 4:11), is it conceivable that God would derive pleasure from seeing those He created endlessly tortured? God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ez. 33:11).

If Hell is a real place of endless torment, and God didn't want anyone to end up there, why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve and end the long terrible chain of misery that passed to their offspring before it began? After all, the Scriptures say that all died because of Adam. (Rom. 5:18)

If Hell is real, if God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them? Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

If Hell is real, if you had sufficient power would you not deliver all men from sin? If God would save all men, but cannot , is He infinite in power?

If Hell is real, and God can save all men, but will not , is He infinite in goodness and mercy?

If Hell is real, since God will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3 KJV), does that mean God's power is not strong enough to have His will fulfilled?

If Hell is real and Jesus teaches us to forgive seventy times seven and yet He Himself will never offer forgiveness to anyone after they die, does that not make Him a hypocrite?

If Hell is real and God's wrath abides upon billions of human beings forever, doesn't that violate the Scripture which says His anger will come to an end? (Isaiah 57:16-18)

If Hell is real and God only loves those who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)

If Hell is real, since some people receive many chances to "get saved," some receive only a few chances and billions have never even received one chance, does that make God a respecter of persons? (Acts 10:34, James 3:17). After all, billions of people have been born and died on this earth without a chance to ever hear the name of Jesus, the "only name under heaven by which men may be saved."

If there is a Hell and all who have sinned are destined to go there (which is everyone) unless they figure out how to avoid it, does that not consign all aborted babies and non-Christian children to Hell? (While some denominations teach a so-called "age of accountability," it is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is just some people's way of trying to make God more humane than the eternal torment teaching makes Him out to be).

If Hell is real, does that mean that motherly love is more powerful and enduring than God's love? Do you know of normal parents who would endlessly torment most of their kids? Why do we believe our heavenly Father, Who is millions of times more loving than all of us combined, could do such an evil, wicked thing?

If Hell is real, why does the human spirit writhe under the horror of wars and prison camps, torture chambers and dictators? How can we judge these things as wrong, if Hell is real? After all, Hell far eclipses these earthly torments which came from the most sinful and beastly part of humanity. We say God is grieved by man's violence and disregard for life, and yet believe that He Himself enforces the same principles for all eternity!

If Hell is real, how would endless misery benefit the Almighty, as the inflictor? How would endless misery benefit the saints, as spectators? How would endless misery benefit the sinner, as the sufferer?

If Hell is real, how does the threat of endlessly torturing us convince us that God loves us and that we should love Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength?

FACT: While the church has gotten used to thinking of God as Someone who was forced to design a grandiose punishment called Hell, and against His own will sends the majority of His creation there, this concept of a God "who did the best He could" is totally against the Scriptural view of a God who is absolutely sovereign, powerful, all-wise and all-victorious. He never had to come up with a plan B or C, for Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It is time to give Him the glory He deserves for our God is truly awesome and wonderful far beyond the limited, and man-centered views of Him!

Come Up Higher!

Beloved, what is the "lens" through which you are interpreting the Bible? Traditional doctrines teach us to interpret the "victorious" scriptures in the light of the "judgment" scriptures. But what if God wants us to see it the other way around? What if we are to interpret the "judgment" scriptures in the light of the "victorious" scriptures? Is not Christ's victory the greatest revelation in the Bible? Standing on this highest peak-that is, the finished work of the cross, causes us to see a much larger and far more beautiful panoramic view of God's plan throughout the ages. We do not throw out one set of Scriptures in favor of another. Rather, we seek to harmonize them.For man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

In the time of Christ, most of Israel completely missed the Word of God when He was in their midst. They were too busy with their nose in the book, to perceive the Word Himself as He came and walked among them! Many Jews were afraid to believe in Jesus, since the majority of their leaders (Scribes, Pharisees, Saducees, Priests etc) who knew the scriptures better than they did, were convinced that He was not the Messiah. In the early days of the church, faith in Jesus Christ was heresy and to admit faith in Him was basically asking for scorn and rejection. Modern Christians point the finger at Israel of old, not realizing that we are following in their footsteps today. Most of us play it safe, siding with the denomination or movement that we happen to be a part of. While there is wisdom in honoring our spiritual fathers, we can never allow them to take the place of the Holy Spirit teaching us in our own lives.

The facts presented in this article should at least cause every reader who is truly hungry to know God, to search the scripture to see if these things be so. If what we are presenting here is false, it needs to be disproved. And if it is true, it cannot be ignored.

It is time to stop skipping the parts of the Bible that do not fit in with our theology. And if, like the religious leaders of Jesus' day, our theology is not big enough to hold the entire counsel of Scripture, perhaps it is time to expand--lest we once again miss God!

And so we ask you again, beloved Christian, to ask yourself.

If the traditional teaching of Hell is real..

How can mercy triumph over judgment? (James 2:13)

How can it be true that, "where sin abounded grace did much more abound?" (Rom. 5:20)

When will all flesh come to God? (Psalm 65:2-4)

When will the poor of the earth be avenged and comforted by God? (Psalm 113:7, Psalm 140:12, Proverbs 14:31, Proverbs 19:17, Proverbs 31:9, Isaiah 11:4, Isaiah 61:1, Jeremiah 22:16 etc.) (Bear in mind that most of the poor of the earth throughout history have not had a chance to accept Jesus as their savior).

When shall it come to pass that: "On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine- the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken" (Isaiah 26:6-8).

When and how will "all nations" praise Him, come to Him, serve Him, be blessed in Him and bow to Him? (Psalm 45:17, Ps. 86:9, Isaiah 62:11, Daniel 7:14 Ps 66:1, Ps 72:11, Ps 102:15, Jer. 3:17, Ps 72:17, Isa. 2:2, Isa. 11:10, Isa. 52:10, Rev. 5:13 etc.)

How can the world be reconciled to God? (2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 11;5, Romans 5:10).

Why would Paul the apostle say the goal of God's creative plan was to ultimately be "all in all?" (1 Cor. 15:28)

How can it be true that God, Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, shall gather together all things in Christ, in the fullness of the times? (Ephesians 1:9-11)

How can Paul insist that "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things" (Romans 11:36).

How can the most often-repeated Biblical description of God be true? "His mercy endures forever" (literally, "His mercy/lovingkindness endures for the ages"). Certainly, as long as there are ages, and people in need of mercy, God's mercy will endure.

How and when can there ever be a "restitution of all things?" (Acts 3:21)

A Final Test

We have tested the doctrine of Hell against many different Biblical topics and concepts and found it wanting. When scrutinized in the light of the entire counsel of Scripture, the doctrine of Hell is found to be full of holes. Now, test this doctrine against your own heart and see whether it can stand. Please take some time and prayerfully ask yourself these questions:

If there is a Hell and according to most denominations of Christianity the majority of mankind will go there, could you really enjoy heaven knowing your mother or father or children or best friend are suffering everlasting tortures the likes of which would make the Holocaust seem like a picnic?

If Hell is real, will you judge your mother, son, or other non-believers to Hell ? "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world"? And if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Corinthians 6:2-3

If Hell is real and a place of terrible, unending pain, could you even send a dog to such a place?

If Hell is real and universalism is a heresy, why is it that those who believe God loves all and will save all find it easier to love all people than those who believe most people are going to Hell? (Think this through very carefully.)

If Hell is real, can you honestly rejoice in the victory, love, and wisdom of God, knowing that somewhere in His beautiful creation there will always be a black and stinking hell-hole crammed full of tortured souls who have no chance for relief or forgiveness--or even death? Even if there was only one person left in such a state, how could all of Heaven rejoice for all eternity knowing that there was still one soul who had not been touched by the victory of Christ and was suffering alone?

Is it good to desire all men to be saved? "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim.2:3,4).

. Do you ardently desire the salvation of all men?
. Is it true that God "openeth His hand and satisfieth the desire of every living thing?" -- (Ps. 145:16)
. Do you fervently pray for the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:1)
. Do you pray in faith, nothing doubting? (James 1:6)
. Are you aware, "that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" -- (Rom 14:23)
. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?


We hope that this information has raised enough questions for you to pursue further study on this subject. For more information on the history of the doctrine of Hell, the Lake of Fire , Studies on Biblical words that are often translated as eternal, everlasting, etc. and many other teachings pertaining to this subject, please visit: www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Some of these questions were taken from a much larger list compiled in an article entitled Is Salvation a Deliverance From Hell or Eternal Death? " by Gary Amirault .


".And for this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe" (2 Timothy 4:10 ).

[Dilloduck]

Probably too long and against a rule but a great read--thanks !