The Confederate Flag

[Hobbit]

Since gabby is no longer with us I'll have to defend her analogy for her.



The neocons are the present day scapegoats for the failures of the "true conservatives." The neocons ARE the "true conservatives". Period.

But the people that built this country and are respponsible for everything good that has ever happened in this country are catching on to the lies as told by present day rEpublican politicians and are now rejecting the excuses now told by the rEpublican Leadership that it has anything to do with their default scapegoats for their own failures, the "neocons". The true conservatives and wayyyy too many even more liberally minded Americans are gladly willing to hire an illegal anybody for a cut rate price to do their dirty work. "Dirty work" is my description for anything that you don't want to do for yourself.

That is, quite possibly, the biggest load of crap I have seen you dump in over a month. Way to raise the bar.

[Psychoblues]

I dunno, hibbit. Just exactly what do you have a problem with?



That is, quite possibly, the biggest load of crap I have seen you dump in over a month. Way to raise the bar.

I have a problem with your use of the phrase "load of crap" and equally your other phrase "Way to raise the bar." Spell it out for the imbeciles, spit it out for the idiots or just tell us what you object to in the post you reference. Or maybe it's a personal problem for you? I know that you have many of those.

[Hobbit]

I dunno, hibbit. Just exactly what do you have a problem with?




I have a problem with your use of the phrase "load of crap" and equally your other phrase "Way to raise the bar." Spell it out for the imbeciles, spit it out for the idiots or just tell us what you object to in the post you reference. Or maybe it's a personal problem for you? I know that you have many of those.

That would take a long time, be really hard, and would produce little, if any, results. I see no reason to spell out why that post was retarded.

[Psychoblues]

It's your reputation at stake here, hibbit.


That would take a long time, be really hard, and would produce little, if any, results. I see no reason to spell out why that post was retarded.

You can take as long as you would like to explain yourself. So far you ain't doing too good in my honest opinion.

[glockmail]

I think you mean neocons. True conservatives, you'll have to agree, never wanted the Mexicans here to begin with.

Also I think Mexicans are too short to change light bulbs.

I'm a true conservative, and I'll but my legal Mexican employee a ladder.

[Hobbit]

It's your reputation at stake here, hibbit.



You can take as long as you would like to explain yourself. So far you ain't doing too good in my honest opinion.

No, it's your reputation that's already trashed. C'mon, calling 'neo-cons' (do you even know what that means?) the true conservatives and saying that true conservatives hire illegal labor is like calling Jim Jones a true Christian. You're spouting drivel here.

[Psychoblues]

So far you ain't makin' much sense.



No, it's your reputation that's already trashed. C'mon, calling 'neo-cons' (do you even know what that means?) the true conservatives and saying that true conservatives hire illegal labor is like calling Jim Jones a true Christian. You're spouting drivel here.

Please speak on.

[gabosaurus]

Please ease up. You are forcing Hobbit to think. :poke:

[Psychoblues]

hibbitt has already done his thinking. He has admitted it many times before.




Please ease up. You are forcing Hobbit to think. :poke:

I don't think new information will change his steadfast thoughts one way or the other.

Thanks for the observation, gabby!!!

[Hobbit]

hibbitt has already done his thinking. He has admitted it many times before.





I don't think new information will change his steadfast thoughts one way or the other.

Thanks for the observation, gabby!!!

There is no new information on the topic. I'm just sick of you Yankee bigots telling me what my ancestors fought for and basically telling me I'm descended from Nazis.

[Hugh Lincoln]

The neocons ARE the "true conservatives".

Hey... a retarded person called. He wants his political analysis back.

[Psychoblues]

Lemme explain this to you one more time, hibbitt.




There is no new information on the topic. I'm just sick of you Yankee bigots telling me what my ancestors fought for and basically telling me I'm descended from Nazis.

I am no yankee or a carpetbagger. I was born and raised in the deep south in a richly southern heritage family. And although I have many worldwide travels I still call the deep south my home. I resent the defeated flag of the confederacy being displayed as any symbol of strength by any group today. It is a despicable symbol of racism and it amplifies the ignorance of it's displayers and defenders by 10,000 db.

[Hobbit]

Lemme explain this to you one more time, hibbitt.





I am no yankee or a carpetbagger. I was born and raised in the deep south in a richly southern heritage family. And although I have many worldwide travels I still call the deep south my home. I resent the defeated flag of the confederacy being displayed as any symbol of strength by any group today. It is a despicable symbol of racism and it amplifies the ignorance of it's displayers and defenders by 10,000 db.

Thus proving that every time you claim to have been raised in the 'deep south,' you're lieing through your teeth. You claim to be southern, but you talk like a damn Yankee...unless Pennsylvania's now considered 'south.'

[Psychoblues]

I am what I say I am and live where I say I live, hibbitt. My heritage is as well.



Thus proving that every time you claim to have been raised in the 'deep south,' you're lieing through your teeth. You claim to be southern, but you talk like a damn Yankee...unless Pennsylvania's now considered 'south.'

Think again!!!!!!!!

[Hobbit]

I am what I say I am and live where I say I live, hibbitt. My heritage is as well.




Think again!!!!!!!!

You can't exhale without lieing. I no more believe you're from the deep south than I would believe you're from Mars.

[Psychoblues]

How does Corinth, Mississippi sound to you, hibbitt?



You can't exhale without lieing. I no more believe you're from the deep south than I would believe you're from Mars.

Is that deep enough for you or should I lighten up on you just a bit?

[Hobbit]

How does Corinth, Mississippi sound to you, hibbitt?




Is that deep enough for you or should I lighten up on you just a bit?

Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Any true Mississippian wouldn't have the contempt for his state's history that you do.

[Psychoblues]

I have no contempt whatsoever for the history of the state of Mississippi, hibbbit.



Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Any true Mississippian wouldn't have the contempt for his state's history that you do.

It is those like you that I intend to dispel and protect the precious history of this most Glorious and Godly state, hibbitt. WE, as Mississippians, overwhelmingly reject the display of that horrendous flag.

[Hobbit]

I have no contempt whatsoever for the history of the state of Mississippi, hibbbit.




It is those like you that I intend to dispel and protect the precious history of this most Glorious and Godly state, hibbitt. WE, as Mississippians, overwhelmingly reject the display of that horrendous flag.

And that proves you've never even set foot in Mississippi. I guess you've never heard of the Ole' Miss Rebels?

[Psychoblues]

And I can only suppose that you are aware that the Col. Rebel is no longer a mascot for Ole Miss. Or that the confederate flag is forbidden from their games and campus? Or that most Ole Miss students reject the flag, you and all that either of you represent.



And that proves you've never even set foot in Mississippi. I guess you've never heard of the Ole' Miss Rebels?

You are such an ignorant turd, hibbitt. Maybe you ought to spend more time down here.

[Hobbit]

And I can only suppose that you are aware that the Col. Rebel is no longer a mascot for Ole Miss. Or that the confederate flag is forbidden from their games and campus? Or that most Ole Miss students reject the flag, you and all that either of you represent.




You are such an ignorant turd, hibbitt. Maybe you ought to spend more time down here.

The mascot is still the Rebels. The proposed new mascots are altered versions of the old Col. The Col. is still available in the Ole' Miss store. The flag ban was the University's overreaction to Tuberville's request that people stop waving it at games, and it's currently being challenged in court. I have spent a lot of time in Mississippi, especially since I'm from a neighboring state and I have a cousin who *gasp* went to Ole' Miss.

You're still full of crap.

[gabosaurus]

Hobbit, since you have the "Nazi" thing down pat, tell me this:
What is the difference between a Nazi and a German?

[Psychoblues]

I'll go you one further, gabby. What is the difference between a Nazi and any other right winger?




Hobbit, since you have the "Nazi" thing down pat, tell me this:
What is the difference between a Nazi and a German?

Sorry to see you can't respond.

[gabosaurus]

Modern-day Germany has banned the display of the swastika and any flag associated with Hitler and the defeated German military. They did so to help remove the stigma of Germany as a defeated country.

Why can't the U.S. do the same? There is zero honor in the Confederate flag. It represents a group of states that attempted to break the American Union. When the Confederacy was defeated, that should have been the end of it. No flags or other artifacts.

My maternal relatives were honorable people. They fought for what they felt was right, and to defend their country. They were not Nazis or barbaric people. I am proud of what they stood for.
At the same time, I don't own any swastikas or Nazi memorabilia. When I went to Germany last summer, we didn't sit around thinking about how much better we would have had it if "our side" won World War II.

There are Germans (and others) who do such. They revere Hitler and the ideals he stood for. With that in mind, I can understand why Confederate rednecks want to sit around the vittles table and dream of what could have been.
"Flossy May, bring us some more possum stew! And see if the still if ready yet!"

[5stringJeff]

Modern-day Germany has banned the display of the swastika and any flag associated with Hitler and the defeated German military. They did so to help remove the stigma of Germany as a defeated country.

Why can't the U.S. do the same?

It's called freedom of speech. You know, the same amendment that currently allows you to burn the US flag?


There is zero honor in the Confederate flag. It represents a group of states that attempted to break the American Union. When the Confederacy was defeated, that should have been the end of it. No flags or other artifacts.

Southern pride is obviously something you don't understand. It will take much more than losing a war to extinguish it.

[theHawk]

Modern-day Germany has banned the display of the swastika and any flag associated with Hitler and the defeated German military. They did so to help remove the stigma of Germany as a defeated country.

Why can't the U.S. do the same?

Because of a little 'ole thing call the Constitution.



There is zero honor in the Confederate flag. It represents a group of states that attempted to break the American Union. When the Confederacy was defeated, that should have been the end of it. No flags or other artifacts.

Maybe for you there is zero honor in it. But other people beg to differ.



My maternal relatives were honorable people. They fought for what they felt was right, and to defend their country. They were not Nazis or barbaric people. I am proud of what they stood for.
At the same time, I don't own any swastikas or Nazi memorabilia. When I went to Germany last summer, we didn't sit around thinking about how much better we would have had it if "our side" won World War II.
Good for you. Do you not own any Nazi memorabillia because its outlawed or because you just don't want to? If the latter, why are the laws needed?


If you think the Confederate flag should be banned, shouldn't also the Nazi flag?
Maybe next will be the rainbow flag, the Israeli flag....who knows eventually the American flag itself after all innocents have been killed under its banner right?

[theHawk]

I'll go you one further, gabby. What is the difference between a Nazi and any other right winger?


This type of comment is exactly why the government should never have a say in what should be allowed and what should not be allowed via the First Amendment. A few people get into power and they determine who is "bad", and start lumping all people they dislike with the Nazis. Next thing you know, we're living in a liberal utopia - a completely socialist/communist state run by the select few elites who censor everything and imprison whomever they deem evil.

[Gunny]

Modern-day Germany has banned the display of the swastika and any flag associated with Hitler and the defeated German military. They did so to help remove the stigma of Germany as a defeated country.

Why can't the U.S. do the same? There is zero honor in the Confederate flag. It represents a group of states that attempted to break the American Union. When the Confederacy was defeated, that should have been the end of it. No flags or other artifacts.

My maternal relatives were honorable people. They fought for what they felt was right, and to defend their country. They were not Nazis or barbaric people. I am proud of what they stood for.
At the same time, I don't own any swastikas or Nazi memorabilia. When I went to Germany last summer, we didn't sit around thinking about how much better we would have had it if "our side" won World War II.

There are Germans (and others) who do such. They revere Hitler and the ideals he stood for. With that in mind, I can understand why Confederate rednecks want to sit around the vittles table and dream of what could have been.
"Flossy May, bring us some more possum stew! And see if the still if ready yet!"

Why can't the US ban burning the US flag? If you support THAT as freedom of expression, then it should be legal to display whatever one wants.

You lefties are as hypocritical as it comes on this issue. You're all for freedom of expression as long as it's expressing what YOU think is right.

[Psychoblues]

Everybody has their little signs, gunny. Some, like you, choose to wear them around your necks.



Why can't the US ban burning the US flag? If you support THAT as freedom of expression, then it should be legal to display whatever one wants.

You lefties are as hypocritical as it comes on this issue. You're all for freedom of expression as long as it's expressing what YOU think is right.

I'm glad it's your neck and not mine!!!!!!!!!!

[Gunny]

Everybody has their little signs, gunny. Some, like you, choose to wear them around your necks.




I'm glad it's your neck and not mine!!!!!!!!!!

What sign would THAT be?

If that sign is the fact that freedom of expression IMO should be just that, guilty as charged. Freedom of expression does not apply solely to what is PC and/or popular.

If you can express your feelings that you hate racists, then they should be allowed to express their feelings of hatred toward you or whoever they hate.

That's pretty simple, and not defending their ideology at all. It's defending EQUAL rights under the First Amendment.

[Psychoblues]

So, if I am to interpret your remarks correctly, you are a racist.



What sign would THAT be?

If that sign is the fact that freedom of expression IMO should be just that, guilty as charged. Freedom of expression does not apply solely to what is PC and/or popular.

If you can express your feelings that you hate racists, then they should be allowed to express their feelings of hatred toward you or whoever they hate.

That's pretty simple, and not defending their ideology at all. It's defending EQUAL rights under the First Amendment.

And you are very proud of it and expect me to be as well?

Fly your goddamned flag, gunny. I will see you long before you see me.

[nevadamedic]

So, if I am to interpret your remarks correctly, you are a racist.




And you are very proud of it and expect me to be as well?

Fly your goddamned flag, gunny. I will see you long before you see me.

Im pretty sure Gunny isn't a racist.

[Psychoblues]

I have no clue as to whether you are pretty or not. I know that you are not attractive to me from your writings. As far as being sure about anything, I think you are mistaken.




Im pretty sure Gunny isn't a racist.

That's the way I see it. Let gunny defend his own remarks. You ain't doin' so good at it.

[LOki]

I have no clue as to whether you are pretty or not. I know that you are not attractive to me from your writings. As far as being sure about anything, I think you are mistaken.

That's the way I see it. Let gunny defend his own remarks. You ain't doin' so good at it.There's nothing in Gunny's post here that indicates he's racist. You've called him a racist to attack his valid observation that racist expression is a right protected by the 1st Amendement.

You need to defend your remarks.

[Psychoblues]

I don't need to defend anything, looney.


valid observation that racist expression is a right protected by the 1st Amendement.

You need to defend your remarks.

Have you read this entire thread? I can answer that for you already. NO, you have not. Catch up and get back with me.

[LOki]

I don't need to defend anything, looney.You actually do, poop-breath.


Have you read this entire thread? I can answer that for you already. NO, you have not. Catch up and get back with me. As my luck would have it, I have read this entire thread. I had previously skimmed over the off-topic sparring, but I've reviewed the record. Sorry about your luck, but there's nothing in Gunny's post here that indicates he's racist. You've called him a racist to attack his valid observation that racist expression is a right protected by the 1st Amendement.

You still need to defend your remarks. Defending a racist's right to express their racism does not make one a racist. Calling them a racist does not diminish the assertion that a racist's right to free speech is protected by the 1st Amendment.

[Psychoblues]

Gunny is racist and you suck and are probably racist as well.


You actually do, poop-breath.

As my luck would have it, I have read this entire thread. I had previously skimmed over the off-topic sparring, but I've reviewed the record. Sorry about your luck, but there's nothing in Gunny's post here that indicates he's racist. You've called him a racist to attack his valid observation that racist expression is a right protected by the 1st Amendement.

You still need to defend your remarks. Defending a racist's right to express their racism does not make one a racist. Calling them a racist does not diminish the assertion that a racist's right to free speech is protected by the 1st Amendment.

That's the way life goes. Like mommy used to say. "Make your bed and sleep in it" Have you always been such a shiteater?

[LOki]

Gunny is racist and you suck and are probably racist as well.Unsupported and insulting assertions; hardly convincing.


That's the way life goes. Like mommy used to say. "Make your bed and sleep in it" Have you always been such a shiteater? You forget; I'm "looney"--you're "poop-breath."

[Psychoblues]

I just hate it when a shit eater calls me "poop-breath".




Unsupported and insulting assertions; hardly convincing.

You forget; I'm "looney"--you're "poop-breath."

Is that a piece of corn in your teeth or is it just more shit?

[5stringJeff]

Sorry about your luck, but there's nothing in Gunny's post here that indicates he's racist. You've called him a racist to attack his valid observation that racist expression is a right protected by the 1st Amendement.

You still need to defend your remarks. Defending a racist's right to express their racism does not make one a racist. Calling them a racist does not diminish the assertion that a racist's right to free speech is protected by the 1st Amendment.

:clap::clap::clap:

[LOki]

I just hate it when a shit eater calls me "poop-breath".I just love it when retards can't get past name calling and vying for that last word. It's like they're waving a flag proclaiming their retarded pride. I'm so happy their 1st amendment right to do so is protected.

[Psychoblues]

This entire thread is about a flag.



I just love it when retards can't get past name calling and vying for that last word. It's like they're waving a flag proclaiming their retarded pride. I'm so happy their 1st amendment right to do so is protected.

You didn't get that, did you? Retard?

[LOki]

This entire thread is about a flag.




You didn't get that, did you? Retard?:clap:LOLfritters!:lol:

[Psychoblues]

Typical.



:clap:LOLfritters!:lol:


You prove a lot of points, loonie.

[Gunny]

So, if I am to interpret your remarks correctly, you are a racist.

So I should be surprised that you are incapable of interpetting simple English? There is nothing racist in my comment, nor does my comment support such.



And you are very proud of it and expect me to be as well?

I expect nothing of you, actually. Especially any kind of well-thought-out argument.

Fly your goddamned flag, gunny. I will see you long before you see me.

So lost in your own bigotry that you cannot see that YOU are the threat to freedom of expression here, not me.

[Gunny]

Gunny is racist and you suck and are probably racist as well.



That's the way life goes. Like mommy used to say. "Make your bed and sleep in it" Have you always been such a shiteater?

Feel free to cut and paste any comment I have made that expresses racism on my part, or any support for it and quote it back to me, then we'll apply "Mommy's" quote to YOU.

[5stringJeff]

This entire thread is about a flag.

You didn't get that, did you? Retard?

And LOki, Gunny, Hobbit, and I are all in favor of the continued freedom to fly that flag, given what it symbolizes to us. You, apparently, are not.

[gabosaurus]

First of all, I have never viewed Gunny as racist. I can think of several other DP members who exhibit far greater racial, cultural and religious hatred and bigotry than Gunny.
Gunny also exhibits more class than many of his detractors.

I will never understand the continued desire to display the Confederate flag. My dad's family has lived in the Dallas area for multiple generations. I don't recall the confederacy ever being mentioned. Perhaps they grew up with a different neck color than those who continue to embrace a culture of anti-American white supremacy.

So tell me, what if a family moved in down the street and decided to proudly fly the PLO flag. Or that of Iran or North Korea. Because he was proud of what it represented.
I don't see the Confederate banner as merely a flag. I see it as a symbol of racial hatred and anti-Americanism.

[Hobbit]

First of all, I have never viewed Gunny as racist. I can think of several other DP members who exhibit far greater racial, cultural and religious hatred and bigotry than Gunny.
Gunny also exhibits more class than many of his detractors.

I will never understand the continued desire to display the Confederate flag. My dad's family has lived in the Dallas area for multiple generations. I don't recall the confederacy ever being mentioned. Perhaps they grew up with a different neck color than those who continue to embrace a culture of anti-American white supremacy.

So tell me, what if a family moved in down the street and decided to proudly fly the PLO flag. Or that of Iran or North Korea. Because he was proud of what it represented.
I don't see the Confederate banner as merely a flag. I see it as a symbol of racial hatred and anti-Americanism.

That's because you've been conditioned to view it that way by groups like the NAACP, who want to see all history of black oppression viewed exactly the way they view it.

As far as Texas goes, it was a bit out of the way with the war. As a native Arkansan and descended from Georgian Confederate soldiers, I have a bit of a deeper connection to it. My ancestors fought for freedom and independance, even offering the slaves freedom in return for serving the Confederate army. The fact that the KKK adopted it doesn't make the flag racist. It makes the KKK a bunch of jackasses for wrecking a perfectly good symbol, much like the Nazis ruined the swastika.

[nevadamedic]

That's because you've been conditioned to view it that way by groups like the NAACP, who want to see all history of black oppression viewed exactly the way they view it.

As far as Texas goes, it was a bit out of the way with the war. As a native Arkansan and descended from Georgian Confederate soldiers, I have a bit of a deeper connection to it. My ancestors fought for freedom and independance, even offering the slaves freedom in return for serving the Confederate army. The fact that the KKK adopted it doesn't make the flag racist. It makes the KKK a bunch of jackasses for wrecking a perfectly good symbol, much like the Nazis ruined the swastika.

He makes a good point, just because a racist group uses it doesn't make it a symbol of racism. Actually it is a very important piece of American history and if you say or think it's a symbol of racism your ignorant.

[Gunny]

First of all, I have never viewed Gunny as racist. I can think of several other DP members who exhibit far greater racial, cultural and religious hatred and bigotry than Gunny.
Gunny also exhibits more class than many of his detractors.

I will never understand the continued desire to display the Confederate flag. My dad's family has lived in the Dallas area for multiple generations. I don't recall the confederacy ever being mentioned. Perhaps they grew up with a different neck color than those who continue to embrace a culture of anti-American white supremacy.

So tell me, what if a family moved in down the street and decided to proudly fly the PLO flag. Or that of Iran or North Korea. Because he was proud of what it represented.
I don't see the Confederate banner as merely a flag. I see it as a symbol of racial hatred and anti-Americanism.

Well, there ARE about as many Mexican flags around here as there are Texas and/or US flags.

Ever here the song "I'm Not from Dallas, I'm From Texas"? :poke:

The Confederate Battle flag has indeed at times been used as a symbol of racial hatred. It also has been used by Southern whites as a symbol of ethnic unity and common heritage no different than any other ethnicity's symbol representing the same. So either they ALL represent racial hatred, or they all represent what the presenters say they do unless or until their actions prove otherwise.

Personally, more than anything else, it represents antagonzing people who who see it, cry "racism" and think that in and of iself is a winning argument, when all they are really proving is their own ignorance.

Which begs the question: Do the Vietnamese family that live down the street think because I have the Marine Corps Colors on my truck that I'm going to come burn their hut down?:laugh2:

[theHawk]

I don't see the Confederate banner as merely a flag. I see it as a symbol of racial hatred and anti-Americanism.


Tell us Gabby, do you feel the same way about the commonly used African flag, since it was used by racist groups like the Black Panthers? Its not a flag of any one country, much like the Confederate flag, its rather a symbol for a people from a geographical area.

[5stringJeff]

That's because you've been conditioned to view it that way by groups like the NAACP, who want to see all history of black oppression viewed exactly the way they view it.

As far as Texas goes, it was a bit out of the way with the war. As a native Arkansan and descended from Georgian Confederate soldiers, I have a bit of a deeper connection to it. My ancestors fought for freedom and independance, even offering the slaves freedom in return for serving the Confederate army. The fact that the KKK adopted it doesn't make the flag racist. It makes the KKK a bunch of jackasses for wrecking a perfectly good symbol, much like the Nazis ruined the swastika.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap:

[glockmail]

......Which begs the question: Do the Vietnamese family that live down the street think because I have the Marine Corps Colors on my truck that I'm going to come burn their hut down?:laugh2:


If you were a truly sensitive indivdual you would take them off and paint your truck pink so as not to risk offending them. :poke:

[Gunny]

That's because you've been conditioned to view it that way by groups like the NAACP, who want to see all history of black oppression viewed exactly the way they view it.

As far as Texas goes, it was a bit out of the way with the war. As a native Arkansan and descended from Georgian Confederate soldiers, I have a bit of a deeper connection to it. My ancestors fought for freedom and independance, even offering the slaves freedom in return for serving the Confederate army. The fact that the KKK adopted it doesn't make the flag racist. It makes the KKK a bunch of jackasses for wrecking a perfectly good symbol, much like the Nazis ruined the swastika.

Texas was part of the Confederacy, and there are some rebel flag waivers here. The difference resides in the fact that we are WAY prouder of being Texans than anything else and most of us display the Texas flag and the US flag.

[gabosaurus]

Texas was part of the Confederacy, and there are some rebel flag waivers here. The difference resides in the fact that we are WAY prouder of being Texans than anything else and most of us display the Texas flag and the US flag.

:clap:
Best argument I have ever heard on this topic
:cheers2:

[Gunny]

:clap:
Best argument I have ever heard on this topic
:cheers2:

That's got to be a record first that being arrogant Texans ever got us props.:laugh2:

[Hobbit]

Texas was part of the Confederacy, and there are some rebel flag waivers here. The difference resides in the fact that we are WAY prouder of being Texans than anything else and most of us display the Texas flag and the US flag.

That too. We Arkansans are more awesome, but we let you Texans think you're better because it serves our purposes.

The Arkansas flag, by the way, is probably one of the coolest looking flags in the world, and honors every flag Arkansas has been under, with the U.S.A. being number one.

[Gunny]

That too. We Arkansans are more awesome, but we let you Texans think you're better because it serves our purposes.

The Arkansas flag, by the way, is probably one of the coolest looking flags in the world, and honors every flag Arkansas has been under, with the U.S.A. being number one.

Arkansas? I think that's that place in North Texas we back the garbage trucks up to ....:poke:

[DragonStryk72]

Well, for my two cents, the historical points that Hobbit mentioned are very accurate. Now for my credentials: I am a Yankee, specifically I was born in Queens, NY (near Shea Stadium), but I was raised in Albany, NY (even further north). After high school, I went into the Navy, and served out in Norfolk, VA, where I took a trip up to Williamsburg for a weekend, and got my first glimpse of Colonial Williamsburg (I was actually there for Busch Gardens, but my girlfriend insisted we take a day trip to CW), so, after Navy, I went back up north, did two years at Hudson Valley Community College, and then declared my major for American History, and moved my butt back south, graduating from the College of William & Mary. From there, I secured a job as a Historic Interpreter with the Colonial Williamsburg foundation, so yeah, I have a slight bit of knowledge about the whole history of america thing.

The problem is that, post-war, the north did everything they could to put the screws to the south, they lost voting rights, arms rights, could not hold a militia, those who had served in the militia were arrested for it (regulars were pardoned, but the militia wasn't), there was the railroads running roughshod over people, and the economy went into the toilet. This set the stage for a racism that wasn't previously existant, with whites blaming blacks for the problems, because really, who else were they going to blame, the government who had ground them into the dirt once already?

This was one of the things Lincoln had wanted to avoid by simply bringing the south back into the union, as it would have changed things quite a bit, but the government was sore about the southern states leaving, and nailed them.

We are the ONLY country in the world that stills harbors these resentments, btw. Britain, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, they all got past it, they accept it as a part of their history, and they move on. Because we botched the handling of it though (Britain for instance, simply put out the money to buy out all the slaves currently in hold, allowing the slave owners to adjust much more swiftly to the new order), we have created an atmosphere of continued bigotry and racism, to wit, this 21 page argument about it.

The confederate flag, at its inception, stood for the rights of the states to not be ruled over by the federal government, to choose their own path, and make their own destiny. This is why we nowadays are having discussions of returning states' rights to the states, that's what that is talking about. That is what the flag stands for, not what some unholy fucktards decided to pervert it to. Yes, it took me a while to accept this point, because I was raised in the north, so I had the northern spin on the Civil War, "It was fought over slavery", but it wasn't, and no amount of them accomplishing that goal changes what it was actually about.

Those who fail to learn from their history are doomed to repeat it, but those who fail to learn it correctly, why they are just doomed.

[Hobbit]

Arkansas? I think that's that place in North Texas we back the garbage trucks up to ....:poke:

You're thinking of Oklahoma. Arkansas is that place were you get the good barbeque...you know, the stuff made with hickory instead of that second-rate stuff, mesquite.

To Dragonstryk: :clap:

You are the first Yankee I've seen who gets it. The occupation of the Confederacy was the most oppressive occupation the United States has ever participated in. My family went from filthy rich to dirt poor in a single generation, and now a bunch of jackasses keep telling me how symbols of my family's history are racist and wrong...and then they wonder why we poor, dumb Southerners treat Yankees with contempt whenever they come around and tell us how much better we could live if we just did what they told us to.

And BTW, Colonial Williamsburg kicks the crap out of Busch Gardens, not that Busch Gardens isn't awesome.

[typomaniac]

Texas was part of the Confederacy, and there are some rebel flag waivers here. The difference resides in the fact that we are WAY prouder of being Texans than anything else...

True, that pride is fairly obvious to anyone who's spent much time there. Nonetheless, I lived more than 3 years in Texas and I still can't figure out WHY anyone would be proud of it.
:lmao:

[gabosaurus]

The occupation of the Confederacy was the most oppressive occupation the United States has ever participated in. My family went from filthy rich to dirt poor in a single generation, and now a bunch of jackasses keep telling me how symbols of my family's history are racist and wrong...and then they wonder why we poor, dumb Southerners treat Yankees with contempt whenever they come around and tell us how much better we could live if we just did what they told us to.

Hobbit, this is why you are and will always be a redneck hick.
First of all, there is no "north" and "south" anymore. This is the United States. If your family went broke supporting the Confederacy, that is the breaks of war.
My mom's family was well off before and during WWII. After the Russians came through, they were left with zero. That is why they emigrated to the U.S.
There was an East and West Germany for 40 years. Now, there is a united Germany. No one continues to fly the East German flag, or brag about any merits of East Germany. There is a united Germany.

The Civil War was a very bitter struggle, Often pitting family members against family members. Can you not understand why there was a brutal occupation? To the winners go the spoils.
Let's face it, the "symbols of your family's history" ARE racist and wrong. The Confederate states tried to break the union, were defeated and duly chastised. Stop trying to live in the past.

I have been to Texas many times. It is an awesome state. I love the Dallas area. I love the Austin-San Antonio area. Texans have a just right to be proud. It is the second-greatest state in the country (after California, of course :cheers2: ).
Arkansas has..what? Little Rock? Hillbillies and pick up trucks? Bill Clinton? There is nothing in Arkansas worth speaking about.
Perhaps that is why Arkies still embrace the Confederacy. There is nothing to brag about. Texas has plenty. How can you compare Austin to .. Pine Bluff? :laugh2:

Give up, Hobbit. Even Tennessee is cooler than Arkansas. :poke:

[5stringJeff]

True, that pride is fairly obvious to anyone who's spent much time there. Nonetheless, I lived more than 3 years in Texas and I still can't figure out WHY anyone would be proud of it.
:lmao:

I lived 13 years in Texas and will never stop calling it my home. What's not to love about Texas?

[5stringJeff]

The confederate flag, at its inception, stood for the rights of the states to not be ruled over by the federal government, to choose their own path, and make their own destiny. This is why we nowadays are having discussions of returning states' rights to the states, that's what that is talking about. That is what the flag stands for, not what some unholy fucktards decided to pervert it to. Yes, it took me a while to accept this point, because I was raised in the north, so I had the northern spin on the Civil War, "It was fought over slavery", but it wasn't, and no amount of them accomplishing that goal changes what it was actually about.



Let's face it, the "symbols of your family's history" ARE racist and wrong. The Confederate states tried to break the union, were defeated and duly chastised. Stop trying to live in the past.

DragonStryk obviously gets it. Gabby obviously does not.

[typomaniac]

I lived 13 years in Texas and will never stop calling it my home. What's not to love about Texas?

Well, I guess the weather would have to top the list. I don't like hot, and I like the hot-humid combination even less. Then there's the lack of any decent mountains. Torrential t-storms are no picnic, either.

The only things I actually miss about Texas are the barbecue and the iced tea (I hate it when CA restaurants serve fruit punch and call it "iced tea"). And the blue bonnets, I suppose. But that's pretty much it.

[Gunny]

You're thinking of Oklahoma. Arkansas is that place were you get the good barbeque...you know, the stuff made with hickory instead of that second-rate stuff, mesquite.




To Dragonstryk: :clap:

You are the first Yankee I've seen who gets it. The occupation of the Confederacy was the most oppressive occupation the United States has ever participated in. My family went from filthy rich to dirt poor in a single generation, and now a bunch of jackasses keep telling me how symbols of my family's history are racist and wrong...and then they wonder why we poor, dumb Southerners treat Yankees with contempt whenever they come around and tell us how much better we could live if we just did what they told us to.

And BTW, Colonial Williamsburg kicks the crap out of Busch Gardens, not that Busch Gardens isn't awesome.

Obviously your tastebuds have been ruined by indulging them in nasty tasting meat or you could easily appreciate the simple fact that mesquite flavor is FAR superior to hickory. Why? Because if hickory was superior, WE would have it.:laugh2:

[Gunny]

Well, I guess the weather would have to top the list. I don't like hot, and I like the hot-humid combination even less. Then there's the lack of any decent mountains. Torrential t-storms are no picnic, either.

The only things I actually miss about Texas are the barbecue and the iced tea (I hate it when CA restaurants serve fruit punch and call it "iced tea"). And the blue bonnets, I suppose. But that's pretty much it.

I hated every minute of So Cal weather, and No Cal weather sucks even worse. Cold at night year round, the ocean is ALWAYS cold, and fog.

Then there's the fact that if you are sitting on a ship off the coast, you can see a distinct orange roll of smoke cover the I5 corridor as far as the eye can see.

The only time I actually enjoyed living in CA was in the hi desert.

[5stringJeff]

Well, I guess the weather would have to top the list. I don't like hot, and I like the hot-humid combination even less. Then there's the lack of any decent mountains. Torrential t-storms are no picnic, either.

The only things I actually miss about Texas are the barbecue and the iced tea (I hate it when CA restaurants serve fruit punch and call it "iced tea"). And the blue bonnets, I suppose. But that's pretty much it.

I grew up with hot and humid, so I suppose I'm used to it.

The food is excellent. Both Tex-Mex and BBQ don't get any better than Texas.

After living in the NW for so long, I understand what you mean about mountains. But we've lots of meandering rivers to make up for it.

[typomaniac]

I hated every minute of So Cal weather, and No Cal weather sucks even worse. Cold at night year round, the ocean is ALWAYS cold, and fog.
But we hi-tech Californians now have these things called "wet suits." You should try one on sometime. :D

[gabosaurus]

There is no better BBQ than in Texas! I will give that to them. Not to mention the ability to cook a chicken fried steak. My best friend Beth took me to this BBQ place in Austin that was freakin unbelievable!
I am sure Arkansas has better possum steaks though.

[Hobbit]

Obviously your tastebuds have been ruined by indulging them in nasty tasting meat or you could easily appreciate the simple fact that mesquite flavor is FAR superior to hickory. Why? Because if hickory was superior, WE would have it.:laugh2:

Honestly, hickory won't grow in Texas. If you go down to Texas with hickory, you can get a 2-1 trade for mesquite, which is nasty.

Anybody who thinks the best barbeque is from Texas is a moron. Go to the Memphis world championship barbeque cookoff. First off, Texans talk about beef. There is no beef catagory at that contest, just 3 pork categories and an 'other' catagory. That, and the winners are almost always from either Arkansas or Memphis. No lie.

[5stringJeff]

Anybody who thinks the best barbeque is from Texas is a moron. Go to the Memphis world championship barbeque cookoff. First off, Texans talk about beef. There is no beef catagory at that contest, just 3 pork categories and an 'other' catagory. That, and the winners are almost always from either Arkansas or Memphis. No lie.

That's why the best BBQ in the world is from Texas... no one else BBQs the right animal.

[Pale Rider]

And here I thought this thread was about the Confederate flag.

We got a couple BBQ joints here in Reno. Both serve up damn good stuff. I think to say that the BEST comes only from your state, you gotta have pickier taste buds than I got.

[Hobbit]

That's why the best BBQ in the world is from Texas... no one else BBQs the right animal.

Just keep thinking that. Your bastardized beef has nothing on the genuine article. Your pride does you credit, but your taste buds betray you.

Hint: If you're ever in Hot Springs, go to McLard's Barbeque. If you still think anything in Texas is even worth eating, it's purely psychosomatic.

Also, watch the History Channel episode of American Eats on barbeque. The experts they have on there disagree on a lot of things, but the one thing they all agree on is that calling beef barbeque is like calling hamburger patty a steak.

[CockySOB]

And here I thought this thread was about the Confederate flag.

We got a couple BBQ joints here in Reno. Both serve up damn good stuff. I think to say that the BEST comes only from your state, you gotta have pickier taste buds than I got.

The real argument will start when some idiot claims that wet BBQ is better than a dry rub.

[Hobbit]

The real argument will start when some idiot claims that wet BBQ is better than a dry rub.

I must admit that I have a real soft spot for good ole' Memphis dry rub.

[nevadamedic]

I hated every minute of So Cal weather, and No Cal weather sucks even worse. Cold at night year round, the ocean is ALWAYS cold, and fog.

Then there's the fact that if you are sitting on a ship off the coast, you can see a distinct orange roll of smoke cover the I5 corridor as far as the eye can see.

The only time I actually enjoyed living in CA was in the hi desert.

I love the weather in Northern California and the hills are really pretty!

[glockmail]

That's why the best BBQ in the world is from Texas... no one else BBQs the right animal. Then you have never had pork country ribs. Pure delight as it clogs your arteries good and tight. :laugh2:

[Pale Rider]

The real argument will start when some idiot claims that wet BBQ is better than a dry rub.

I thought all good BBQ started with a rub, and ended being sopped.

[Pale Rider]

I love the weather in Northern California and the hills are really pretty!

So do I. I think NorCal is some of the prettiest country I've ever seen in my life, and the weather was perfect. Up around Shasta Lake is God's country, and nobody can deny the beauty of Yosemite.

[CockySOB]

I thought all good BBQ started with a rub, and ended being sopped.

BLASPHEMER!!!

Good BBQ doesn't need any sauce to cover the taste. Bad BBQ needs sauce to cover the cook's incompetence whether in the choice of meat cuts or in the cooking.

I just did a mess of pork ribs over hickory embers for just under 8 hrs yesterday - the meat practically fell apart when you looked at it! And the flavor was divine. Time to take some of the left-overs to my folks house for lunch.

[Pale Rider]

BLASPHEMER!!!

Good BBQ doesn't need any sauce to cover the taste. Bad BBQ needs sauce to cover the cook's incompetence whether in the choice of meat cuts or in the cooking.

I just did a mess of pork ribs over hickory embers for just under 8 hrs yesterday - the meat practically fell apart when you looked at it! And the flavor was divine. Time to take some of the left-overs to my folks house for lunch.

:dunno: - - :bow3:

[Gunny]

Honestly, hickory won't grow in Texas. If you go down to Texas with hickory, you can get a 2-1 trade for mesquite, which is nasty.

Anybody who thinks the best barbeque is from Texas is a moron. Go to the Memphis world championship barbeque cookoff. First off, Texans talk about beef. There is no beef catagory at that contest, just 3 pork categories and an 'other' catagory. That, and the winners are almost always from either Arkansas or Memphis. No lie.

See, right THERE is what's wrong with your WHOLE argument.

I would expect someone from TN or Arkansas to win a pork BBQ contest. That is like saying "Let's go horseback riding" and giving someone a goat to ride.

[Gunny]

Just keep thinking that. Your bastardized beef has nothing on the genuine article. Your pride does you credit, but your taste buds betray you.

Hint: If you're ever in Hot Springs, go to McLard's Barbeque. If you still think anything in Texas is even worth eating, it's purely psychosomatic.

Also, watch the History Channel episode of American Eats on barbeque. The experts they have on there disagree on a lot of things, but the one thing they all agree on is that calling beef barbeque is like calling hamburger patty a steak.

Keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper. I wouldn't let my dog eat pork BBQ. You're just jealous you can't smoke a brisket because you can't spell it well enough to pick one out at the meat market.

[Gunny]

Then you have never had pork country ribs. Pure delight as it clogs your arteries good and tight. :laugh2:

He's not talking about THAT kind of pork. Everyone BBQ's babyback ribs. He's talking about pig roast, sliced and slapped on a bun. It's nasty, and will clog your arteries twice as fast.

[typomaniac]

That's nothing compared to California. Here we have a WHOLE TOWN named "Manteca."

That's Spanish for "lard," by the way. :laugh2:

[Psychoblues]

Lard is what they serve on the Confederate Flag, isn't it?



That's nothing compared to California. Here we have a WHOLE TOWN named "Manteca."

That's Spanish for "lard," by the way. :laugh2:

Or is it simply bullshit?

[DragonStryk72]

Hobbit, this is why you are and will always be a redneck hick.
First of all, there is no "north" and "south" anymore. This is the United States. If your family went broke supporting the Confederacy, that is the breaks of war.

There might not be, but the point he is making is that, during that time, it wasn't just a matter of the north beat the south, the north beat the south, crushed their whole economy, kicked them out of the government for about 50 years, and continued beating them past point of surrender. This of course creates a tad bit of resentment from the ones kicked, and yes, it passes down.


My mom's family was well off before and during WWII. After the Russians came through, they were left with zero. That is why they emigrated to the U.S.
There was an East and West Germany for 40 years. Now, there is a united Germany. No one continues to fly the East German flag, or brag about any merits of East Germany. There is a united Germany.

For this, I go back to WWI, where we created WWII by putting Germany into an untenable situation. by the time that Hitler rolled in, people could wallpaper their homes with money, it was worth so little. This opened the door for someone to walk in and use that against, and so enters Adolf Hitler, who gave them someone to blame (the Jews) that operated as a convenient scapegoats, a way to have money that was actually worth a damn, and a united goal (take over world).

The same can be said of the KKK, it got perverted by people who had their own agenda. The north created the fertile ground for racism, and so it grew. As you sow, so shall you reap.


The Civil War was a very bitter struggle, Often pitting family members against family members. Can you not understand why there was a brutal occupation? To the winners go the spoils.
Let's face it, the "symbols of your family's history" ARE racist and wrong. The Confederate states tried to break the union, were defeated and duly chastised. Stop trying to live in the past.

He isn't, but perverting the past is no different. Valuing the history is a great and wonderful thing, and it i possible for someone to be your enemy, and to still respect that enemy, and what they are fighting for.

[Psychoblues]

I'll buy into everything you said, DS72.



There might not be, but the point he is making is that, during that time, it wasn't just a matter of the north beat the south, the north beat the south, crushed their whole economy, kicked them out of the government for about 50 years, and continued beating them past point of surrender. This of course creates a tad bit of resentment from the ones kicked, and yes, it passes down.



For this, I go back to WWI, where we created WWII by putting Germany into an untenable situation. by the time that Hitler rolled in, people could wallpaper their homes with money, it was worth so little. This opened the door for someone to walk in and use that against, and so enters Adolf Hitler, who gave them someone to blame (the Jews) that operated as a convenient scapegoats, a way to have money that was actually worth a damn, and a united goal (take over world).

The same can be said of the KKK, it got perverted by people who had their own agenda. The north created the fertile ground for racism, and so it grew. As you sow, so shall you reap.



He isn't, but perverting the past is no different. Valuing the history is a great and wonderful thing, and it i possible for someone to be your enemy, and to still respect that enemy, and what they are fighting for.

You end up talking about enemies and I suppose you think you have one or some. Care to elaborate?

BTW, we're talking about a defeated flag of the United States confederacy here so please be comprehensive.

[Hugh Lincoln]

that is the breaks of war.

Liberals get bloodthirsty at the thought of the suffering of their enemies, wail and moan about the suffering of their friends, and then can't understand why anyone would get mad at them for hypocrisy.

You clearly wouldn't brush off all "the breaks of war." We'll never hear you say, "Well, those Palestinians might be suffering, but so what?" or "Who cares if a few innocent Iraqis lose their children to stray American bombs?"

A million German civilians died during competely unnecessary Allied bombing in WW2. Breaks of war? Sure, you'd say. Jews in concentration camps during the war? An unspeakable crime.

Inconsistent.

[gabosaurus]

The Civil War ended more than 140 years ago. That should be long enough for the defeat and lingering animosity to be passed aside.
When blacks continue to shriek about being enslaved and put in ghettos, conservatives tell them to get over it. Slavery ended a long time ago. Yet some of the same still want to embrace the confederacy, which endorsed slavery.

The Confederacy was a bogus idea that was defeated. It shouldn't matter who died in the 1860s and who lost properties and fortunes. It's over, this is America. If you want to continue to be a prejudiced hillbilly redneck, you are free to do so. Just don't complain about blacks, Mexicans and Muslims who want to do the same.

[Mr. P]

The Civil War ended more than 140 years ago. That should be long enough for the defeat and lingering animosity to be passed aside.
When blacks continue to shriek about being enslaved and put in ghettos, conservatives tell them to get over it. Slavery ended a long time ago. Yet some of the same still want to embrace the confederacy, which endorsed slavery.

The Confederacy was a bogus idea that was defeated. It shouldn't matter who died in the 1860s and who lost properties and fortunes. It's over, this is America. If you want to continue to be a prejudiced hillbilly redneck, you are free to do so. Just don't complain about blacks, Mexicans and Muslims who want to do the same.

History of ancestors. Mean anything to you?

[gabosaurus]

Sure it does. Ancestors are part of your family history. They are your past, not your present or future.

Part of Hitler's plan for world domination was to breed "pure" German women with men from occupied countries. This would insure the Germanic lineage.
In other words, people like me would be ruling the world right now if Germany had won WWII.

I have gotten over it. So should everyone.

[5stringJeff]

I have gotten over it. So should everyone.

I'm not getting over it. I'm embracing it. In fact, I'm getting my certification ready to join the Sons of Confederate Veterans (http://www.scv.org/).

[Hobbit]

See, right THERE is what's wrong with your WHOLE argument.

I would expect someone from TN or Arkansas to win a pork BBQ contest. That is like saying "Let's go horseback riding" and giving someone a goat to ride.

Once again, you disagree with everywhere in the world outside Texas, forgetting that BBQ started OUTSIDE Texas and migrated there. You don't get to redefine it. What you're doing right now would be similar to doing the following:

Baseball comes to Texas.
Texans aren't good at baseball.
Texans decide to make baseball full tackle, replace the ball with a more elongated one, and completely eliminate the bat.
Texans make fun of everyone else because baseball without full tackle and with bats isn't baseball.

BBQ has ALWAYS been pork. It always will be pork, and just because you can't find any pork that I think is even worthy for me to piss on in that steer state of yours doesn't give you the right to change the definition of a generations old tradition.

As for your comment on me being unable to cook or pick out brisket, I can do that well enough. I've rivaled Texans at cooking the stuff and can make it up so well that people have asked me to do their fundraisers. I just think it's vastly inferior to a pair of pork shoulders and some country style ribs.

[CockySOB]

A good beef brisket ain't nothing to sneeze at, Hobbit. Of course just as with pork, getting the right cuts with the right marbling and top fat is the key to having great BBQ. In my experience most grocers tend to have their brisket too lean for a good BBQ, which is why I get mine cut by the local butcher to MY specifications.

Both have their particulars, and done right NEITHER need any crappy sauce covering up the smoky goodness of the BBQ.

[gabosaurus]

Hobbit, quit trying to exalt the "wonders of Arkansas." There aren't any.
Why do you even bother mentioning baseball? Texas has two major league baseball teams. Two Texas colleges, Rice and Texas, has won college baseballl championships. The only thing that Arkies know about baseball is that the bats are good things to beat up blacks with.

Barbeque may not have originated in Texas, but it is sure best there at the present. I have had BBQ brisket, sausage and pork ribs in Austin that boggles the imagination.

On top of that, let's compare the intelligence of the Texas posters on this board against the Arkie ones. Nuff said about that. :laugh2:

[5stringJeff]

Hobbit, quit trying to exalt the "wonders of Arkansas." There aren't any.
Why do you even bother mentioning baseball? Texas has two major league baseball teams. Two Texas colleges, Rice and Texas, has won college baseballl championships. The only thing that Arkies know about baseball is that the bats are good things to beat up blacks with.

Barbeque may not have originated in Texas, but it is sure best there at the present. I have had BBQ brisket, sausage and pork ribs in Austin that boggles the imagination.

On top of that, let's compare the intelligence of the Texas posters on this board against the Arkie ones. Nuff said about that. :laugh2:

Out of curiousity, have you ever actually been to Arkansas, or are all of your judgments about the state preconceived notions?

[Hugh Lincoln]

Out of curiousity, have you ever actually been to Arkansas, or are all of your judgments about the state preconceived notions?

I grew up for the most part in the Midwest. For decades I have lived in the East. Few things amaze me more than the way a New Yorker can completely miss the irony in the following statement:

"I hate Southerners. They're all so prejudiced."

Ask them if they've ever even BEEN to the South, and they will laugh in your face. "Excuse me? Who the fuck are you, a redneck? No, I've never been there, and I'd never go there, either. All those white hicks should be nuked. Hey, everyone, we've got David Duke in the room over here! Ha!"

True recreation of actual events at actual cocktail gatherings in Manhattan. Repeatedly.

You listen to that often enough, and you wonder why I go on the Internet to speak my piece? Unbridled hatred of whites is rampant in America, and if you complain about it, they laugh even harder. Frustrating? Oh, maybe just a little.

[Hobbit]

A good beef brisket ain't nothing to sneeze at, Hobbit. Of course just as with pork, getting the right cuts with the right marbling and top fat is the key to having great BBQ. In my experience most grocers tend to have their brisket too lean for a good BBQ, which is why I get mine cut by the local butcher to MY specifications.

Both have their particulars, and done right NEITHER need any crappy sauce covering up the smoky goodness of the BBQ.

Yeah, I love a good brisket, and as I think I said, I've cooked a few myself, but it isn't BBQ unless it's pork, just really good smoked beef.

And Gabby, you're a moron, and that becomes more and more obvious with every post you use to try to bash Arkansas. As a general policy, I don't argue with people who must first be educated, so do us both a favor and stop talking (er, typing).

[Gunny]

Once again, you disagree with everywhere in the world outside Texas, forgetting that BBQ started OUTSIDE Texas and migrated there. You don't get to redefine it. What you're doing right now would be similar to doing the following:

Baseball comes to Texas.
Texans aren't good at baseball.
Texans decide to make baseball full tackle, replace the ball with a more elongated one, and completely eliminate the bat.
Texans make fun of everyone else because baseball without full tackle and with bats isn't baseball.

BBQ has ALWAYS been pork. It always will be pork, and just because you can't find any pork that I think is even worthy for me to piss on in that steer state of yours doesn't give you the right to change the definition of a generations old tradition.

As for your comment on me being unable to cook or pick out brisket, I can do that well enough. I've rivaled Texans at cooking the stuff and can make it up so well that people have asked me to do their fundraisers. I just think it's vastly inferior to a pair of pork shoulders and some country style ribs.

Pork is readily available here. It SUCKS. And it's only "always been BBQ" for the underprivileged.:poke:

If you don't like how we play baseball, don't watch it.:laugh2:

I lived outside Texas for more of my life than I have lived here. Couldn't wait to get back. Y'all foreigners are always taking a perfectly good thing (like BBQ) and screwing it up.

[Gunny]

A good beef brisket ain't nothing to sneeze at, Hobbit. Of course just as with pork, getting the right cuts with the right marbling and top fat is the key to having great BBQ. In my experience most grocers tend to have their brisket too lean for a good BBQ, which is why I get mine cut by the local butcher to MY specifications.

Both have their particulars, and done right NEITHER need any crappy sauce covering up the smoky goodness of the BBQ.

Sauce? Isn't that what you drink WHILE BBQing?:cheers2:

[CockySOB]

Sauce? Isn't that what you drink WHILE BBQing?:cheers2:

LOL! Yeah, that's the ONLY kind of sauce that needs to be at a BBQ....

[Hobbit]

Pork is readily available here. It SUCKS. And it's only "always been BBQ" for the underprivileged.:poke:

If you don't like how we play baseball, don't watch it.:laugh2:

I lived outside Texas for more of my life than I have lived here. Couldn't wait to get back. Y'all foreigners are always taking a perfectly good thing (like BBQ) and screwing it up.

I was thinking the same thing about Texas.

I also know that pork is available there, but I've tried the pork you can get in Texas, and it's TERRIBLE, especially when they use that bastard mesquite bullcrap. Come on up to Memphis and try that stuff, and don't dare mention beef or you'll get laughed at.

[Mr. P]

Well Boys, the only way to settle this is to have a cook-off.

I'll be the judge, since the best BBQ in the world comes from Georgia. :)

[Hobbit]

Well Boys, the only way to settle this is to have a cook-off.

I'll be the judge, since the best BBQ in the world comes from Georgia. :)

I would challenge you on that, but Georgia is one of the states that 'gets it,' so instead of dividing the house, I'll just let that be decided in Memphis.

[Mr. P]

I would challenge you on that, but Georgia is one of the states that 'gets it,' so instead of dividing the house, I'll just let that be decided in Memphis.

Memphis? :laugh2:

[Hobbit]

Memphis? :laugh2:

That's where the world championship barbeque cookoff is every year.

[Gunny]

I was thinking the same thing about Texas.

I also know that pork is available there, but I've tried the pork you can get in Texas, and it's TERRIBLE, especially when they use that bastard mesquite bullcrap. Come on up to Memphis and try that stuff, and don't dare mention beef or you'll get laughed at.

Dude, you need to just quit wasting your time and effort. I've lived all over the US, and tried the BBQ from CA to KCMO, to VA to FL and NONE of it compares to a brisket smoked with mesquite.

I've been to TN plenty of times. My paternal family is from AL/TN. Y'all need to stick to making mash.

[Gunny]

Memphis? :laugh2:


Last time I went through Memphis I wouldn't unlock the doors.

[Hobbit]

Dude, you need to just quit wasting your time and effort. I've lived all over the US, and tried the BBQ from CA to KCMO, to VA to FL and NONE of it compares to a brisket smoked with mesquite.

I've been to TN plenty of times. My paternal family is from AL/TN. Y'all need to stick to making mash.

I give up. You have no taste buds. Either that, or you're so convinced of the superiority of Texas that you are incapable of liking anything else. I can't argue with somebody I have to educate first, so I'm not going to.

BTW, you're like people who hate Star Wars with a burning passion. Over 99% of the general population disagrees with you, but you're convinced it's because they're wrong, and there's nothing they can say to convince you otherwise.


Last time I went through Memphis I wouldn't unlock the doors.

Good thinking. Ever since that jackass got 'elected' mayor, it's been going down the toilet. I moved away about the time that happened, and it was a really nice place under the previous mayor.

[Gunny]

I give up. You have no taste buds. Either that, or you're so convinced of the superiority of Texas that you are incapable of liking anything else. I can't argue with somebody I have to educate first, so I'm not going to.

BTW, you're like people who hate Star Wars with a burning passion. Over 99% of the general population disagrees with you, but you're convinced it's because they're wrong, and there's nothing they can say to convince you otherwise.



Good thinking. Ever since that jackass got 'elected' mayor, it's been going down the toilet. I moved away about the time that happened, and it was a really nice place under the previous mayor.

You STILL trying to pass that pig meat off as BBQ? My tastebuds are fine. I love FL seafood. Japanese tenpura and tepanyaki. There's NOTHING in world like fresh bread from a Cretian bakery. There's nothing like my grandmother's (who was from TN btw) fried chicken and cornbread, or biscuits and gravy. There's nothing like Tex-Mex food.

In other words, I've eaten all over the world, and all over the US, so I doubt you could do much to educate me.

And I STILL wouldn't let my dog eat BBQ'd pig.:laugh2:

[Hobbit]

And I STILL wouldn't let my dog eat BBQ'd pig.:laugh2:

Then you have learned nothing.


I love FL seafood.

And this is further proof. There's no seafood in the world that can compare to Chesapeake Bay blue crab.

[Gunny]

Then you have learned nothing.



And this is further proof. There's no seafood in the world that can compare to Chesapeake Bay blue crab.

I've eaten both Chesapeake Bay seafood and FL seafood. They are comparable, but I give the slight edge to FL.

And *I* have learned plenty that apparently seems to be beyond your ability to grasp. I don't like pork. :poke:

[Hobbit]

I've eaten both Chesapeake Bay seafood and FL seafood. They are comparable, but I give the slight edge to FL.

And *I* have learned plenty that apparently seems to be beyond your ability to grasp. I don't like pork. :poke:

And that's your problem, not a blanket statement on the state of all pork the world over. I bet you being colorblind would lead you to denounce the very existence of the colors red and green.

[Gunny]

And that's your problem, not a blanket statement on the state of all pork the world over. I bet you being colorblind would lead you to denounce the very existence of the colors red and green.

Come now, Hobbit ... you weren't reading more into what I said than is there, were you? I said pork BBQ sucks. I made no blanket statement, nor attempted to pass it off as fact. Anyone with any kind of G-2 at all knows that who likes what kind of barbeque is NOTHING BUT opinion based on personal taste.

I bet you would be wrong. I've just been pulling your chain because you've been working dilligently trying to pull mine. :poke:

(And pork STILL sucks)

[Hobbit]

Come now, Hobbit ... you weren't reading more into what I said than is there, were you? I said pork BBQ sucks. I made no blanket statement, nor attempted to pass it off as fact. Anyone with any kind of G-2 at all knows that who likes what kind of barbeque is NOTHING BUT opinion based on personal taste.

I bet you would be wrong. I've just been pulling your chain because you've been working dilligently trying to pull mine. :poke:

(And pork STILL sucks)

Yeah, it's been fun, but we've been playing tug-of-war for what, 10 pages now? I'm all yanked out.

And beef is still vastly inferior to pork unless it's a juicy hamburger or cooked, at most, medium rare as a nice, tender cut on my plate...with a loaded baked potato on the side.

[gabosaurus]

I was in Austin this weekend. We had barbeque brisket and links. It was God-fearing incredible.
We wanted to eat with our fingers, but they told us this wasn't Arkansas, so we needed to use a knife and fork.

[Hobbit]

I was in Austin this weekend. We had barbeque brisket and links. It was God-fearing incredible.
We wanted to eat with our fingers, but they told us this wasn't Arkansas, so we needed to use a knife and fork.

A Texan asking you to eat with a knife and fork? You're a damn liar.

[Hugh Lincoln]

I have a complaint that people use the term "barbecue" to refer to a simple cookout over a grill. "Barbecue" means slow-cured, smoked meat from a smoker, a process that takes hours and hours. It's not the same as frying a burger on the charcoal.

I don't mean this thread, I mean, people just tend to do that.

[Gunny]

I have a complaint that people use the term "barbecue" to refer to a simple cookout over a grill. "Barbecue" means slow-cured, smoked meat from a smoker, a process that takes hours and hours. It's not the same as frying a burger on the charcoal.

I don't mean this thread, I mean, people just tend to do that.

Don't know about anyone else participating here, but we call "frying a burger on the charcoal" grilling. We use the term barbeque as you described ... smoked for hours in a smoker.

[Hobbit]

Don't know about anyone else participating here, but we call "frying a burger on the charcoal" grilling. We use the term barbeque as you described ... smoked for hours in a smoker.

And that...and the awesomeness that is eating things with fingers, is something even Texans and Arkansans can agree on. Oh, that and the fact that Gabby has never been on the ground in 'flyover country.'

[Gunny]

A Texan asking you to eat with a knife and fork? You're a damn liar.

What do YOU know? I stab everything I eat with a BMF knife. :death:

[Hobbit]

What do YOU know? I stab everything I eat with a BMF knife. :death:

And fork? Eating BBQ with just a knife is manly. Using a fork on anything that requires a knife, though, is a little too dainty for BBQ.

By the way, I've eaten pork shoulder before with both a Bowie knife and an Arkansas Toothpick.

[gabosaurus]

So which is best used to eat BBQ Possum? I bet it goes better with the moonshine.

[Hobbit]

So which is best used to eat BBQ Possum? I bet it goes better with the moonshine.

Possum's kinda nasty. Armadillo is much better. It even comes in its own bowl.

P.S. Seriously, I've had both.
P.P.S. But I don't drink, so no moonshine, though I hear most of it's a lot better than some of the stuff that you can buy in stores, and I know that you have a lifetime allowance of 100 gallons tax free, provided you don't sell it.

[Gunny]

Possum's kinda nasty. Armadillo is much better. It even comes in its own bowl.

P.S. Seriously, I've had both.
P.P.S. But I don't drink, so no moonshine, though I hear most of it's a lot better than some of the stuff that you can buy in stores, and I know that you have a lifetime allowance of 100 gallons tax free, provided you don't sell it.

:lmao:

And you questioned MY taste, you damned backwoods-dwelling hillbilly? 'Possum and armadillo? That's freakin' ROADKILL around here.

[Hobbit]

:lmao:

And you questioned MY taste, you damned backwoods-dwelling hillbilly? 'Possum and armadillo? That's freakin' ROADKILL around here.

It was in the 'anything but' catagory in Memphis, and I was curious.

Hey, it still beats anything done with that bastard wood, mesquite.

[gabosaurus]

Gunny, obviously you have never stopped at the Roadkill Cafe in Eureka Springs.
Though I am sure Hobbit prefers homemade roadkill. Squirrels and other critters undoubtedly taste better when prepared by relatives.
And in Arkansas, most everyone is related somehow. :laugh2:

[Hobbit]

Gunny, obviously you have never stopped at the Roadkill Cafe in Eureka Springs.

Don't knock it 'til you try it.


Though I am sure Hobbit prefers homemade roadkill.

I'd never eat roadkill, but there have been cows and deer killed on the road...in far more frequency than possums and close to that of armadillos. Does that mean beef and venison are all roadkill and unfit for consumption?


Squirrels and other critters undoubtedly taste better

Far better than McCrap's corn and butane nuggets with their 100% all cowpie patties and molded fries.


when prepared by relatives.

And you don't like home cooking?


And in Arkansas, most everyone is related somehow. :laugh2:

Keep telling yourself that. It's not like you would know, having never landed in flyover country.

[Trigg]

Gunny, obviously you have never stopped at the Roadkill Cafe in Eureka Springs.
Though I am sure Hobbit prefers homemade roadkill. Squirrels and other critters undoubtedly taste better when prepared by relatives.
And in Arkansas, most everyone is related somehow. :laugh2:

Hey, squirrel is actually pretty good. With the added benefit of no arguments over who gets the drumstick.

Don't make the mistake of shooting it with buckshot though, getting all those little pellets out is a pain.

[Hobbit]

Hey, squirrel is actually pretty good. With the added benefit of no arguments over who gets the drumstick.

Don't make the mistake of shooting it with buckshot though, getting all those little pellets out is a pain.

Here here! A .22 is the way to go.

[Trigg]

Here here! A .22 is the way to go.

Gabbo probably has something against rabbit also. :rolleyes:

[5stringJeff]

Gunny, obviously you have never stopped at the Roadkill Cafe in Eureka Springs.
Though I am sure Hobbit prefers homemade roadkill. Squirrels and other critters undoubtedly taste better when prepared by relatives.
And in Arkansas, most everyone is related somehow. :laugh2:

Again, I ask, have you ever actually been to Arkansas, or do you just get this stuff from old Jeff Foxworthy videos?

[gabosaurus]

I've been to Compton a few times. The people are more educated and the food is better. As least they have the sense not to fool around with buckshot there.

There are a lot of places that I haven't been, like Nebraska and West Virginia. Doesn't mean I want to go there.
The only reason that there are still stereotypes about Arkansas is that people like Hobbit continue to reinforce them.

[Hobbit]

I've been to Compton a few times. The people are more educated and the food is better. As least they have the sense not to fool around with buckshot there.

There are a lot of places that I haven't been, like Nebraska and West Virginia. Doesn't mean I want to go there.
The only reason that there are still stereotypes about Arkansas is that people like Hobbit continue to reinforce them.

What I've seen here is a confession that I have eaten a couple of animals not thought of as food by people who never leave their urban sancuaries, and that confession being accompanied by the fact that I wasn't in Arkansas at the time. The rest of this 'reinforced stereotype' that you seem to proclaim is you making sad attempts at humor by accusing me of everything from illiteracy to abject ignorance to inbreeding, which only reinforces the stereotype that San Fransicko is way out of touch with the rest of the world and looks down on anybody who isn't them.

[Gunny]

What I've seen here is a confession that I have eaten a couple of animals not thought of as food by people who never leave their urban sancuaries, and that confession being accompanied by the fact that I wasn't in Arkansas at the time. The rest of this 'reinforced stereotype' that you seem to proclaim is you making sad attempts at humor by accusing me of everything from illiteracy to abject ignorance to inbreeding, which only reinforces the stereotype that San Fransicko is way out of touch with the rest of the world and looks down on anybody who isn't them.

Okay .... time to drag out the heavy artillery ... which people of which state voted Clinton in as there governor; thereby, giving him a platform to ascend to the Presidency?

[Hobbit]

Okay .... time to drag out the heavy artillery ... which people of which state voted Clinton in as there governor; thereby, giving him a platform to ascend to the Presidency?

The twits in eastern and southern Arkansas who always vote for the 'D,' cause that's what their parents did.

To be fair, Clinton was actually a really good governor.

Though it's pretty telling how much ground the Dems are losing in Arkansas since slick Willy decided to make a jackass of himself.

[Psychoblues]

You don't even know what an Arkansas toothpick is, hibbit.



And fork? Eating BBQ with just a knife is manly. Using a fork on anything that requires a knife, though, is a little too dainty for BBQ.

By the way, I've eaten pork shoulder before with both a Bowie knife and an Arkansas Toothpick.

Ever seen the penis bone of a raccoon? We call them coon dicks. You pick your teeth with a coon dick?

[5stringJeff]

The Confederate states tried to break the union, were defeated and duly chastised. Stop trying to live in the past.

To resurrect the thread:

Yes, the states that formed the Confederacy tried to break the Union. At the time, there was no precedent for trying to leave the Union, although New England wanted to secede in 1814/1815.. but that's a different post. Anyway, the Constitution was entered into voluntarily, and the Confederate states ought to have been able to leave voluntarily.

And displaying the Confederate flag (battle flag or otherwise) isn't "living in the past." It's honoring the heritage and the ideals that the South fought for. And oh, by the way, that includes four of my ancestors.

[Psychoblues]

It is now considered a defeated flag, represents a most shameful era of American history and it's resurrection is only proposed by the most despicable of those somehow excusing themselves as simply "patriots".



To resurrect the thread:

Yes, the states that formed the Confederacy tried to break the Union. At the time, there was no precedent for trying to leave the Union, although New England wanted to secede in 1814/1815.. but that's a different post. Anyway, the Constitution was entered into voluntarily, and the Confederate states ought to have been able to leave voluntarily.

And displaying the Confederate flag (battle flag or otherwise) isn't "living in the past." It's honoring the heritage and the ideals that the South fought for. And oh, by the way, that includes four of my ancestors.

Try again, 5Stringer.

[gabosaurus]

Can I fly the German flag from World War II? It's honoring the heritage and the ideals that the Germans fought for. And oh, by the way, that includes all of my mother's ancestors.

[Psychoblues]

Does that include a Swastika, gabby?



Can I fly the German flag from World War II? It's honoring the heritage and the ideals that the Germans fought for. And oh, by the way, that includes all of my mother's ancestors.

Are you in support of waving ol' Swastika?

[CockySOB]

Can I fly the German flag from World War II? It's honoring the heritage and the ideals that the Germans fought for. And oh, by the way, that includes all of my mother's ancestors.

It's a free country, go for it!

[5stringJeff]

Can I fly the German flag from World War II? It's honoring the heritage and the ideals that the Germans fought for. And oh, by the way, that includes all of my mother's ancestors.

If you want to, go ahead. Of course, since Germany has a long and rich history, you've got a wide choice of flags. The Confederacy only has a few, the most famous of which was hijacked by racists.

[glockmail]

Can I fly the German flag from World War II? It's honoring the heritage and the ideals that the Germans fought for. And oh, by the way, that includes all of my mother's ancestors. Das guten! Spaten bier!

[gabosaurus]

Flags have different meanings to different people.
If you were a Viet Nam vet, would you want an immigrant moving in across the street and raising a Viet Cong flag? After all, it is likely a symbol of pride to him.
Same thing with the Japanese and German. Flags of those nations have different meanings to war vets and Holocaust survivors than those citizens of their respective nations.
My dad's family grew up in Texas, going back several generations. I am sure I can trace my dad's roots back to the Civil War and the 19th Century South. I have never heard any of them express pride in owning slaves and trying to break the union. They express more pride in the history of the state of Texas, the only state in the union that was once a country.
As long as you cling to the confederate flag, you have no right to express scorn at anyone (including Mexicans) who cling to their flags.

[glockmail]

As far as I'm concerned racist Democrats lost that war and therefore lost the right to wave their battle flag.

[Hagbard Celine]

As far as I'm concerned racist Democrats lost that war and therefore lost the right to wave their battle flag.

It's the "libs!" :eek: "Libs" were also behind the civil war, slavery and I hear they're even responsible for death itself! Your brain flatlined years ago didn't it?
Your theory is sound except for the fact that it's ignorant, pro-war redneck Bubbas who are flying the Confederate battle flag and not "libs" as you would put it. Try again Boomer.

[glockmail]

It's the "libs!" :eek: "Libs" were also behind the civil war, slavery and I hear they're even responsible for death itself! Your brain flatlined years ago didn't it?
Your theory is sound except for the fact that it's ignorant, pro-war redneck Bubbas who are flying the Confederate battle flag and not "libs" as you would put it. Try again Boomer.

It was the racist Democrats who held slaves, and the radical, liberal republicans who fought them.

You're trying to equate year 2007 liberals with year 1861. This makes no sense.

[Hagbard Celine]

It was the racist Democrats who held slaves, and the radical, liberal republicans who fought them.

You're trying to equate year 2007 liberals with year 1861. This makes no sense.

Yep, it's right here in the "LIB HANDBOOK." Chapter 12, line three. *Ahem* "In accordance with being completely and outlandishly racist at all times, the good Lib should fly the Confederate Battle flag in accordance with the actions of our party's noble founders, the racist Democrats who held slaves." This verse contradicts many other verses in the Handbook, especially those red-letter verses dealing with latte drinking. However, the good "Lib" must never stray from the faith. :dance:

[glockmail]

Yep, it's right here in the "LIB HANDBOOK." Chapter 12, line three. *Ahem* "In accordance with being completely and outlandishly racist at all times, the good Lib should fly the Confederate Battle flag in accordance with the actions of our party's noble founders, the racist Democrats who held slaves." This verse contradicts many other verses in the Handbook, especially those red-letter verses dealing with latte drinking. However, the good "Lib" must never stray from the faith. :dance: Touche!

[5stringJeff]

My dad's family grew up in Texas, going back several generations. I am sure I can trace my dad's roots back to the Civil War and the 19th Century South. I have never heard any of them express pride in owning slaves and trying to break the union.

The Confederacy was not fighting for the right to own slaves. It is well documented that many Southern politicians and generals opposed slavery. They were fighting for the right to leave a pact which they thought to be voluntary.

[glockmail]

The Confederacy was not fighting for the right to own slaves. It is well documented that many Southern politicians and generals opposed slavery. They were fighting for the right to leave a pact which they thought to be voluntary.


It is also well documented that political power was concentrated with rich farm families who inherited their wealth from their English ancestors who occupied most of the fertile bottom lands. In NC this may have been 1000 or so families. We German-Americans and Scots-Irish-Americans who emigrated later and got forced into the less fertile Piedmont and Mountain regions didn't own slaves and didn't support sucession. In fact many of us fought for the Union.

We won the right not to have the Confederat battle flag flown in our states. If y'all want to use it for history lessons and such fine, but let's remember the entire history.

[Psychoblues]

Sorry, gm. As far as I know the confederate flag can still be displayed and flown anywhere and anytime. Now, what "right" have you won, again?


We won the right not to have the Confederate battle flag flown in our states. If y'all want to use it for history lessons and such fine, but let's remember the entire history.

But, to clarify, I think flying it in your yard or in the rear window of your vehicle is just ignorant and asking for trouble. And if you insist on it's representation on your state flagpole I think you are the most ignorant.

[5stringJeff]

We won the right not to have the Confederat battle flag flown in our states. If y'all want to use it for history lessons and such fine, but let's remember the entire history.

Actually, no, what you "won" was the privilege not to live under the Stars and Bars. There are no laws banning the flying of any Confederate flag, nor should there be.

[Gunny]

It is also well documented that political power was concentrated with rich farm families who inherited their wealth from their English ancestors who occupied most of the fertile bottom lands. In NC this may have been 1000 or so families. We German-Americans and Scots-Irish-Americans who emigrated later and got forced into the less fertile Piedmont and Mountain regions didn't own slaves and didn't support sucession. In fact many of us fought for the Union.

We won the right not to have the Confederat battle flag flown in our states. If y'all want to use it for history lessons and such fine, but let's remember the entire history.

Let's. My ancestry is Scot and to a man they all fought for the right to not have a bunch of carpetbaggers telling them what they could and could not do in their own yards, and none of those sidehill farmers could afford slaves.

It is also well-document that Northern power was concentrated among a monority of wealthy industrialists whose sole aim was to control the South's wealth and feed their bottomless pit factories on the cheap or for free by taking what they did not wish to pay for.

Anyone that believes the US Civil War was about anything more than greed, money and power at its base is swallowing the party line rather than looking at the actual truth.

Blacks and apologists have villified the Confederate Battle Flag because they don't like anything that disagrees with their distorted, fanciful version of American history.

You didn't win any right to do anything. You caved to political correctness and revisionist history.

[typomaniac]

Anyone that believes the US Civil War was about anything more than greed, money and power at its base is swallowing the party line rather than looking at the actual truth.

Just like Gulf Wars I and II. :poke:

[Gunny]

Just like Gulf Wars I and II. :poke:

Please name a war in history that has not been based on one or all the three.

The First Gulf War was a direct result of Saddam's greed and sociopathic quest for money and power.

The second is a continuation of the first.

[typomaniac]

Please name a war in history that has not been based on one or all the three.

The First Gulf War was a direct result of Saddam's greed and sociopathic quest for money and power.

The second is a continuation of the first.

I'm glad you at least agree that it's not about "freedom" or "fighting the terrorists over there so that they don't come here."

[Gunny]

I'm glad you at least agree that it's not about "freedom" or "fighting the terrorists over there so that they don't come here."

I would say that is subjective to individual idealism. Liberating Kuwait was indeed about freedom from Saddam Hussein's military occupation and rape of a sovereign nation.

Fighting an enemy in HIS yard instead of your own is sound logic if you don't want YOUR stuff torn up. 9/11 was a direct result of the "they're way over there" mentality.

[actsnoblemartin]

political correctness rules the day, sadly


Since I've seen so many discussions on the Confederate flag, I've decided to give one southerner's view on the whole thing.

First off is the Confederacy itself. Yes, the Confederacy allowed slavery throughout its borders, and that was wrong. To be fair, though, four Union states still allowed slavery, and those were Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware. In the Union, racism was still rampant, and a free black in the South enjoyed more liberties than a black in the North. The Confederacy, rather, was formed over states' rights. The South felt that the more populous Northern states were using their legislative power to overstep the Constitution and impose their will on the South. With Northern industry heavily dependant on Southern agriculture combined with Northern condescension towards Southerners, who they thought to be stupid (sound familiar), this was probably true.

The War Between the States. When the war started, it was in response to the Union leaving a fort (Fort Sumpter) manned, despite the fact that the land it was built on was still owned by the state of South Carolina, which had seceded from the Union. Although no person was killed in the assault on either side, Lincoln moved an army into the South, which was routed at Manassas (not Bull Run, Yankee retards. Manassas was where it happened. Bull Run was the nearest river). The Southerners fought valiantly to try to save their new nation, and outfought the Union on every battlefield, but the Union had more men and resources. Knowing that the world depended on their cotton crop, the Confederacy appealed to Great Britain and France for help (France was still worth talking to for help right up until they sunk all that money into the Maginot Line in the 20s and 30s). Britain hesitated, and France awaited Britain's answer.

The war was not about slavery. Yes, you heard that right. Slavery was far from the issue. In fact, despite the hype behind the (admirable) unit portrayed in the movie "Glory," that unit did not contain America's first black soldiers. Although Confederate military records were destroyed after the war (many think to cover up this fact), photographic and mail evidence clearly show that many Confederate units were mixed, with between 30,000 and 100,000 black soldiers fighting for the South, many in exchange for emancipation. With the war already going badly and appearing long and costly, Lincoln feared France and Britain entering the war, as they would force the Union to accept the Confederacy as an independant nation. To this end, Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation. It was nothing more than a speech, and did not affect any slaves in the four Union slave states. However, Britain was a strongly abolitionist nation and, for appearance's sake, kept out of the war, as did France. In fact, General Ulysses S. Grant owned his own slaves until the 13th ammendment passed in 1865.

Following the war, Lincoln was willing to welcome back the Confederacy and get back to business as usual, with no penalties for former Confederates. He wanted the bloody business done and behind us, but before he could implement his plan, he was assassinated. His successors did not have such a merciful view. They were so forceful in freeing the slaves that many of them ended up starving on the streets, unable to return to their former masters for work. In addition to this, many Northern politicians created puppet governments through uneducated blacks, who now controlled most of the Southern vote. To protect the interests of the Southern states, the KKK was formed to combat the influence of Northern puppetteers and 'carpetbaggers,' so named for the luggage they carried, which was made from old carpet.

When the KKK formed, they were not racist in primary purpose, but were rather political. However, it did not take long for the goals of the KKK as a shadow political party to be hijacked by the many racists who had climbed to power in the organization. With their popularity declining, they adopted the symbol of the Confederacy, claiming they carried its legacy. Despite this, the KKK was eventually dissolved, mostly due to new laws designed specifically to bring it down. In the early 20th century, a new movie entitled "The Klansman" opened in theaters. This fictionalized version of the founding of the KKK protrayed all blacks and idiots and the KKK as being the only thing standing between white women and black rapists. It also caused the revival of the Klan, which took on not only the Confederacy, but adopted Christianity (specifically Protestantism) as another symbol, not because of religious endorsement, but to increase their popularity among the protestant majority of the South. Although it has died down from the pre-civil rights days of lynchings and partial political control of the South, the KKK still exists as a racist organization, now expanding further in its goals to take out not only blacks, but Jews, Mexicans, Asians, and even Catholics.

It is also worth noting that with few exceptions, the South integrated more swiftly and with less conflict than the North.

Now to the Confederate flag. The Confederate flag is the flag of a fallen nation. That nation fought for the rights of the states to be free from a federal government controlled by industrialists. Many of us (Southerners) have ancestors who fought for that nation, and we will not be ashamed. However, black race-baiters feed off of conflict, and portraying the South as the cause of all black problems is far easier than telling them what really happened and trying to move on. The fact that the KKK has also soiled our blessed flags in their dogmatic idiocy has not helped matters. However, given the true history of the Confederacy and the flag that the KKK adopted, it is clear that the Confederate flag is no more racist than the cross, another symbol adopted by the KKK. What needs to happen is not the politically motivated suppression of a historical symbol, but rather an abandonment of the attack on all things associated with the Confederate nation. The Confederacy is long dead, and its a horse that has been beaten for nearly 150 years, post mortem.

I, personally, have a full set of Confederate flags in my room, but they will never fly higher than the American flag also in my room, and I will never toss them aside just because some black guy doesn't want to be reminded of the country on which he blames all of his problems.

[typomaniac]

I would say that is subjective to individual idealism. Liberating Kuwait was indeed about freedom from Saddam Hussein's military occupation and rape of a sovereign nation.About which the U.S. wouldn't have given two shits if not for its oil deposits.


Fighting an enemy in HIS yard instead of your own is sound logic if you don't want YOUR stuff torn up. 9/11 was a direct result of the "they're way over there" mentality.
Wrong, G: 9/11 was a direct result of greed on the part of American Airlines and UAL.

[Mr. P]

About which the U.S. wouldn't have given two shits if not for its oil deposits.


Wrong, G: 9/11 was a direct result of greed on the part of American Airlines and UAL.

Huh? How?

[typomaniac]

Huh? How?

Being too cheap to pay for trained inflight security. Quite stupid considering how many millions each of their planes costs.

[Gunny]

About which the U.S. wouldn't have given two shits if not for its oil deposits.

Perhaps. Self-interest pretty-much makes everyone's decisions for them at every level from individual to National.

At the same time, we are capable of and have performed selfless acts in the past just because it was the right thing to do.


Wrong, G: 9/11 was a direct result of greed on the part of American Airlines and UAL

Not sure where THIS little theory comes from. My point is, we are not untouchable to anyone who TRULY wants to attack us. Halfway around the world is no longer a deterrent in this day and age ... it's merely an inconvenience. A handful of backwards-assed, 7th century minds proved that.

[typomaniac]

Not sure where THIS little theory comes from. My point is, we are not untouchable to anyone who TRULY wants to attack us. Halfway around the world is no longer a deterrent in this day and age ... it's merely an inconvenience. A handful of backwards-assed, 7th century minds proved that.See post #416. But I get your point, and for the most part I agree.

However, just because a handful of backwards-assed, 7th-century minds halfway around the world can try to touch us does not at all mean that we can't make it impossible for them to do any significant damage.

[Gunny]

See post #416. But I get your point, and for the most part I agree.

However, just because a handful of backwards-assed, 7th-century minds halfway around the world can try to touch us does not at all mean that we can't make it impossible for them to do any significant damage.

The fact that we live in an open, free society and can't even control our own borders pretty-much means we can't make it impossible for them to attack us. The attacker always has the advantage of knowing what and when and how he is going to strike. All we can do is react.

And where do we draw the line in sacrificing freedom for security. The two are pretty much mutually exclusive. You have to give up one to gain the other.

We demand our government protect us; yet, oppose allowing it the tools necessary to do so.

[typomaniac]

The fact that we live in an open, free society and can't even control our own borders pretty-much means we can't make it impossible for them to attack us. The attacker always has the advantage of knowing what and when and how he is going to strike. All we can do is react.

And where do we draw the line in sacrificing freedom for security. The two are pretty much mutually exclusive. You have to give up one to gain the other.

We demand our government protect us; yet, oppose allowing it the tools necessary to do so.

I'd say our government already has the necessary tools to do so: it's the globalists and advocates of cheap labor who oppose allowing the government to use them. We could easily control our borders if our politicians didn't feel the need to accept legalized bribes from these people.

As far as the freedom issue goes, Israel has nearly the same level of civil liberties (for its Jews at least) as the U.S. And they're obviously more secure. They have to be in order to just survive.

[Gunny]

I'd say our government already has the necessary tools to do so: it's the globalists and advocates of cheap labor who oppose allowing the government to use them. We could easily control our borders if our politicians didn't feel the need to accept legalized bribes from these people.

As far as the freedom issue goes, Israel has nearly the same level of civil liberties (for its Jews at least) as the U.S. And they're obviously more secure. They have to be in order to just survive.

While I by no means side with any globalists, nor advocates of cheap labor, I think it goes a little further than that. Our government in fact does not have the tools to control our borders, nor more importantly, identify possible terrorists/enemies BEFORE they strike.

The NSA wiretapping has caused a wailing and gnashing of teeth on the left that can be heard on the moon; when, in fact, it is a common sense tool that identifies terrorists and their possible allies in this country.

The border is an issue being driven by the wealthy, and politicians who don't want to alienate the Hispanic vote. There's enough crap in THAT sandwich to spread both ways.

Still, it is our free society and our own laws that are the most detrimental. I am not advocating a police state, either. I am merely saying that more security equals less freedom and vice-versa.

You can't compare the US to Israel. The Israeli people know, to the man, their existence is dependent on the IDF and security. Id' say over half of Americans, even after 9/11, believe the fact that we're here and they're there and nothing's going to happen.

[gabosaurus]

http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc344.html

[midcan5]

"The Confederate flag stands for several things, none of which are good. It stands for slavery. It stands for racism. It stands for treason. It is a historical relic that belongs in a museum, not flying today. It is a symbol of everything we've tried to overcome in this country since the 19th Century. It isn't anything to be proud of, to be celebrated, to be revered. It represents a black mark on our nation's permanent record. To think otherwise is to embrace a dark past."

http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2006/03/the_south_will_.htmlw

[glockmail]

"The Confederate flag stands for several things, none of which are good. It stands for slavery. It stands for racism. It stands for treason. .....
Sounds like it should be flying at the DNC headquarters.

[emmett]

Being too cheap to pay for trained inflight security. Quite stupid considering how many millions each of their planes costs.

Equate it to this. A person purchases a 100,000 car and then changes the oil themselves using 3.oo qt oil instead of Mobil One Synthetic at a much higher cost. The 3 buck stuff is suffiecient and will properly protect the engine but with Mobil One they might get another mile per gallon.

[Hagbard Celine]

Sounds like it should be flying at the DNC headquarters.

Oh, I get it. Because you don't like Democrats. Ha. Ha?

[emmett]

The Confederate flag really means nothing. Neither does the American Flag or any other for that matter. It is their symbolism and how it applies to thiose who seem so fascinated by whatever symbol they have chosen to "worship". On the other hand anyone is offended by a flag is a weak fool. It's nothing!!!! Allowing oneself to become such a simpleton that they can be so influenced by something that has no value is fool hardy. What does it matter?

Usually the people bitching are the ones that worship their own symbols the most.

Now!!! The American Flag on the other hand is also just a flag. The flag burning issue brings it to light. Who cares? Burn mine, you know, like MY personal American Flag and you are indeed making a hateful statement against me. That is personal. Burn one in the street and to me you are just waisting 9 or 10 bucks and making absolutely no statement what so ever other than you are a "simpleton". Don't take what I just said out of context. The flag is a glorious tool and repreenative of our heritage, YES, however to think that folks should come to blows over the issue is stupid.

Psycho made the point a few posts back about the Confederate Flag, fly it in your car window and you invite the idiots who think it is a big deal to be confrontational. Load down your bookshelf at home with history books that contain the flag and noone cares.

Are we just as interested in a jolly roger flying on the back of a boat at the lake? Hell, that flag represents way more tyrany than the St. Andrews cross which in essence stood for good things originally.

Who cares about the Confederate Flag? It is no insult to my southern ancestors for me to be uninterested in this issue. Nor does it lend anything to my northern ancestors. I am also part Apache Indian, have a little Mexican, mostly Irish and English. Hmmm, whose symbols should I be offended by. Maybe I should go through my hunting rifles and toss my Colts, Remingtons and H/R's because they were used to kill my Indian ancestors. Oops, my ancestors used them too. We take this symbolism shit way too far.

Here is what I am proud of. During WW2, my aunt from Alabama gave five sons to the cause of fighting the German attempted takeover of the world. Now there is something to be proud of and I don't imagine anyone will be offended by the Five Star plaque that decorates my cousins foyer in Childersburg, Al. I don't even think his German golf buddy would be offended by it.

Technically, every person of German decent who lives here in America should be attempting to find my cousins house and burn it down, RIGHT! Then on the other hand we drive Mercedes Benz auto's and Mitsubishi's. I personally am not the slighest bit offended by the Japanese flag. Then hell, the calvary flew the then version of the American flag when it slaughtered Indians in the west.

It is a moot issue for hatemongers. Hate the hate! If you want to hate something, hate the Nintendo insignia that has turned our children into fat, dumb lazy idiots who can't tell you who the Secretary of State is. Symbolism sucks.

I'm done!

[Pale Rider]

"The Confederate flag stands for several things, none of which are good. It stands for slavery. It stands for racism. It stands for treason. It is a historical relic that belongs in a museum, not flying today. It is a symbol of everything we've tried to overcome in this country since the 19th Century. It isn't anything to be proud of, to be celebrated, to be revered. It represents a black mark on our nation's permanent record. To think otherwise is to embrace a dark past."

http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2006/03/the_south_will_.htmlw

OK... you're a liberal, and you're having yourself a damn good time pissing on a very important part of our American history. So, if you feel so strongly that the Confederate States of America flag shouldn't even be SEEN outside a museum, then I should think you'd also feel as strongly that the REAL American flag shouldn't be BURNT!

[Yurt]

The Confederate flag really means nothing. Neither does the American Flag or any other for that matter. It is their symbolism and how it applies to thiose who seem so fascinated by whatever symbol they have chosen to "worship". On the other hand anyone is offended by a flag is a weak fool. It's nothing!!!! Allowing oneself to become such a simpleton that they can be so influenced by something that has no value is fool hardy. What does it matter?

Usually the people bitching are the ones that worship their own symbols the most.

Now!!! The American Flag on the other hand is also just a flag. The flag burning issue brings it to light. Who cares? Burn mine, you know, like MY personal American Flag and you are indeed making a hateful statement against me. That is personal. Burn one in the street and to me you are just waisting 9 or 10 bucks and making absolutely no statement what so ever other than you are a "simpleton". Don't take what I just said out of context. The flag is a glorious tool and repreenative of our heritage, YES, however to think that folks should come to blows over the issue is stupid.

Psycho made the point a few posts back about the Confederate Flag, fly it in your car window and you invite the idiots who think it is a big deal to be confrontational. Load down your bookshelf at home with history books that contain the flag and noone cares.

Are we just as interested in a jolly roger flying on the back of a boat at the lake? Hell, that flag represents way more tyrany than the St. Andrews cross which in essence stood for good things originally.

Who cares about the Confederate Flag? It is no insult to my southern ancestors for me to be uninterested in this issue. Nor does it lend anything to my northern ancestors. I am also part Apache Indian, have a little Mexican, mostly Irish and English. Hmmm, whose symbols should I be offended by. Maybe I should go through my hunting rifles and toss my Colts, Remingtons and H/R's because they were used to kill my Indian ancestors. Oops, my ancestors used them too. We take this symbolism shit way too far.

Here is what I am proud of. During WW2, my aunt from Alabama gave five sons to the cause of fighting the German attempted takeover of the world. Now there is something to be proud of and I don't imagine anyone will be offended by the Five Star plaque that decorates my cousins foyer in Childersburg, Al. I don't even think his German golf buddy would be offended by it.

Technically, every person of German decent who lives here in America should be attempting to find my cousins house and burn it down, RIGHT! Then on the other hand we drive Mercedes Benz auto's and Mitsubishi's. I personally am not the slighest bit offended by the Japanese flag. Then hell, the calvary flew the then version of the American flag when it slaughtered Indians in the west.

It is a moot issue for hatemongers. Hate the hate! If you want to hate something, hate the Nintendo insignia that has turned our children into fat, dumb lazy idiots who can't tell you who the Secretary of State is. Symbolism sucks.

I'm done!

have to spread rep...great post :clap:

[glockmail]

Oh, I get it. Because you don't like Democrats. Ha. Ha?
The reason is that the DNC stands for the same three things that I mentioned: slavery, racism, and treason.

[red states rule]

The reason is that the DNC stands for the same three things that I mentioned: slavery, racism, and treason.

You outlined the Dem's beliefs and Barry Obama's platform perfectly

[emmett]

"The Confederate flag stands for several things, none of which are good. It stands for slavery. It stands for racism. It stands for treason. It is a historical relic that belongs in a museum, not flying today. It is a symbol of everything we've tried to overcome in this country since the 19th Century. It isn't anything to be proud of, to be celebrated, to be revered. It represents a black mark on our nation's permanent record. To think otherwise is to embrace a dark past."

http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2006/03/the_south_will_.htmlw

If it does not stand for anything good then why would it be considered historical and be worthy of being in a museum?

[DragonStryk72]

"The Confederate flag stands for several things, none of which are good. It stands for slavery. It stands for racism. It stands for treason. It is a historical relic that belongs in a museum, not flying today. It is a symbol of everything we've tried to overcome in this country since the 19th Century. It isn't anything to be proud of, to be celebrated, to be revered. It represents a black mark on our nation's permanent record. To think otherwise is to embrace a dark past."

http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2006/03/the_south_will_.htmlw

Huh, funny, but the north had slavery at the same time as the south, so I guess we should ditch ours as well.

Oh yeah, forgot about that little section did we? We didn't even get the Emancipation Proclamation til 1863, three years after the war had started. Now why might that be? Oh yeah, the north was having a hard time of it, and England and France were getting ready to step in, because the south was the main place they imported cotton from.

either put both sides, or neither, but don't pander to the one side simply cause you've made your mind up about things.

Other things the confederate flag:

the right of the states to cede from union, as agreed upon in the United States Constitution

States Rights in total

The right of the people to govern themselves.


Now let's also look at the north's effect on the south. When the south took a northern city, they remained civilized, while the northern troops would take a southern city and hang militiamen. Now, yes, they granted amnesty to the regulars, but the bulk of the force for the south were militia, so really, the north was using a loophole.

After this, the government used Eminent Domain to snatch southern land out from under the owners' hands for pennies on the dollar. They wrecked the southern economy for about the next 50-60 years, and refused the confederate states' rights to representation in the federal government for a generation, against Lincoln's express lay out of the plan.

So don't think the stars & stripes are covered in any better a blood than the confederate flag.

[Pale Rider]

The Confederate flag really means nothing. Neither does the American Flag or any other for that matter.

Now!!! The American Flag on the other hand is also just a flag. The flag burning issue brings it to light. Who cares? Burn mine,

Maaaaaaaaan..... how does a person get such deep antipathy for the symbol of their country? Do you really have such little reverence for all those who have fought and died for the ideals that flag portrays? How is it you so easily spit on all those people, their nation, and their flag?

Let me show you a little poem....



I am the flag of the United States of America.
My name is Old Glory.

I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.
I stand watch in America's halls of justice.

I fly majestically over institutions of learning.
I stand guard with power in the world.

Look up ... and see me.

I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.
I stand for freedom.


I am confident.
I am arrogant.
I am proud.

When I am flown with my fellow banners,
my head is a little higher,
my colors a little bit truer.

I bow to no one!

I am recognized all over the world.
I am mighty - I am saluted.

I am loved - I am revered.
I am respected -- and I am feared.

I have fought in every battle of every
war for more then 200 years.


I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg,
Shiloh and Appomattox.

I was there at San Juan Hill,
the trenches of France,
in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome
and the beaches of Normandy, Guam.
Okinawa, Korea and KheSan, Saigon,
Vietnam know me,

I was there.
I led my troops,
I was dirty, battle worn, and tired,
but my soldiers cheered me.
And I was proud.

I have been burned, torn and trampled
on the streets of countries I have helped set free.
It does not hurt, for I am invincible.
I have been soiled upon, burned, torn
and trampled on the streets of my own country.
And when it's by those! whom I've served in battle -
it hurts.

But I shall overcome - for I am strong.

I have slipped the bonds of Earth
and stood watch over the uncharted
frontiers of space from my vantage point
on the moon.

I have borne silent witness
to all of America's finest hours.
But my finest hours are yet to come.

When I am torn into strips
and used as bandages
for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldier,
Or when I lie in the trembling arms
of a grieving parent
at the grave of their fallen son or daughter,

I am proud.

MY NAME IS OLD GLORY.
LONG MAY I WAVE.
DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN,
LONG MAY I WAVE

And if you still feel it's no big deal to burn an American flag, then all I can say is I think you're a goddamn piece of shit, and don't you fucking dare do it in front of me. That mullet of yours won't be the only ugly part on you any more.

[typomaniac]

Maaaaaaaaan..... how does a person get such deep antipathy for the symbol of their country? Do you really have such little reverence for all those who have fought and died for the ideals that flag portrays? How is it you so easily spit on all those people, their nation, and their flag?

Let me show you a little poem....




And if you still feel it's no big deal to burn an American flag, then all I can say is I think you're a goddamn piece of shit, and don't you fucking dare do it in front of me. That mullet of yours won't be the only ugly part on you any more.I'd never do it, I'd never try to convince anyone to do it, and I'd never cheer somebody on who was doing it. It's a stupid ploy to get attention that does nothing to convey whatever the "message" is supposed to be.

I'm just glad to be living in a country that lets people do it. :salute:

[Psychoblues]

You chickenshit racsists will never cease to avoid the subject. Have you ever considered an honest argument?

[Pale Rider]

I'd never do it, I'd never try to convince anyone to do it, and I'd never cheer somebody on who was doing it. It's a stupid ploy to get attention that does nothing to convey whatever the "message" is supposed to be.

I'm just glad to be living in a country that lets people do it. :salute:

That statement is so full of contradiction, it's utterly ludicrous.

[red states rule]

You chickenshit racsists will never cease to avoid the subject. Have you ever considered an honest argument?

Keep trying. Perhops one day with more practice you might be able to make an honest argument. Until then, keep tossing out your insults and racist accusations

[typomaniac]

That statement is so full of contradiction, it's utterly ludicrous.

I don't see even one contradiction, much less the swarm of contradictions you're implying.

[Hagbard Celine]

The Confederate flag stands for slavery and secession from the Union. Anyone who flies that flag is an unpatriotic racist. Period. As is anyone who takes any pride at all in their "Confederate ancestry." Those people were traitors to the US and have shamed themselves.

[Classact]

The Confederate flag stands for slavery and secession from the Union. Anyone who flies that flag is an unpatriotic racist. Period. As is anyone who takes any pride at all in their "Confederate ancestry." Those people were traitors to the US and have shamed themselves.The Confederate flag is a symbol of a political stance and not what you describe it. Some people, do in fact use the flag to show their feelings about race but that is not absolute. Many African Americans would agree with you 100% and would be wrong to do so.

I had a Confederate flag on the front of my car for three years when I first got my drivers license. My family moved to NJ and it went with me there too. The war with the South was provoked and was unnecessary but you know how those neocon Republicans like Lincoln are, now don't you?

[Hagbard Celine]

The Confederate flag is a symbol of a political stance and not what you describe it. Some people, do in fact use the flag to show their feelings about race but that is not absolute. Many African Americans would agree with you 100% and would be wrong to do so.

I had a Confederate flag on the front of my car for three years when I first got my drivers license. My family moved to NJ and it went with me there too. The war with the South was provoked and was unnecessary but you know how those neocon Republicans like Lincoln are, now don't you?

The South chose to secede from the Union based on the issue of the enslavement of other human beings = Evil.
Evil lost and the South was lucky that the North allowed them to re-enter the Union after they had turned their arms against their fellow countrymen. Flying the Confederate flag is not only a slap in the face of every soldier to have ever fought for the US as well as every black American descended from slaves, it's a testament to the flyer's ignorance and impertinence.

[Classact]

The South chose to secede from the Union based on the issue of the enslavement of other human beings = Evil.
Evil lost and the South was lucky that the North allowed them to re-enter the Union after they had turned their arms against their fellow countrymen. Flying the Confederate flag is not only a slap in the face of every soldier to have ever fought for the US as well as every black American descended from slaves, it's a testament to the flyer's ignorance and impertinence.You try to take a very complex issue and explain it with a crayon like a child playing in kindergarten. The politics, religion and economy of the north and south were quite different and slavery had very little to do with the issue of why the South fought the North or the North fought the South. Maybe you should do some reading on the period and get back with me.

[Hagbard Celine]

You try to take a very complex issue and explain it with a crayon like a child playing in kindergarten. The politics, religion and economy of the north and south were quite different and slavery had very little to do with the issue of why the South fought the North or the North fought the South. Maybe you should do some reading on the period and get back with me.

Maybe you should stop trying to pretend that proudly displaying the Confederate flag doesn't make you an unpatriotic racist. (shrug)

[typomaniac]

You try to take a very complex issue and explain it with a crayon like a child playing in kindergarten. The politics, religion and economy of the north and south were quite different and slavery had very little to do with the issue of why the South fought the North or the North fought the South. Maybe you should do some reading on the period and get back with me.

Now that's ludicrous. The South in the mid-19th century was as dependent on slaves as the West is dependent on oil today.

[Pale Rider]

I don't see even one contradiction, much less the swarm of contradictions you're implying.

What part about, "you light up a flag in front of me and I'm stomping your mother fucking face in," did you find contradictory?

Don't give me that shit moron. I don't fuck around one bit on this board, and I don't give a fuck if somebody likes or dislikes my opinion. I don't fashion my opinion around what I think others want to hear, as YOU do. Get that straight, and don't give me any more gas bag, hot air, bull shit replies.

[Classact]

Now that's ludicrous. The South in the mid-19th century was as dependent on slaves as the West is dependent on oil today.Why do you think that was the way it was?

The war between the north and south was a self righteous religious war, the ending of slavery was a religious movement and not a governmental movement.

Why didn't the north have as many slaves as the south? How many southerners owned slaves, was it ten, hundreds, thousands, ten of thousands or millions of slave owners? Were the owners of slaves in the south a minority or a majority, facts please?

Why would a majority of non-slave holder southerners fight for the right of a minority of slave owners rights to have slaves fight the north to the death?

Read the history of the period and get back with me.

[typomaniac]

What part about, "you light up a flag in front of me and I'm stomping your mother fucking face in," did you find contradictory?

Don't give me that shit moron. I don't fuck around one bit on this board, and I don't give a fuck if somebody likes or dislikes my opinion. I don't fashion my opinion around what I think others want to hear, as YOU do. Get that straight, and don't give me any more gas bag, hot air, bull shit replies.
Hello? You said I was contradicting myself, and didn't bring shit to the table to back it up.

So again, for the record, I believe every word of what I said regarding flag burning. No hot air, no bullshit. And there's nothing contradictory (that I'm aware of) about those statements.

And by the way, don't pretend I ever accused you of being contradictory. I don't have any patience with moronic, turn-everything-around bullshit, either.

[Psychoblues]

The stars and bars is so contradictory of genuine American ideology that I can't comprehend it's continued defense in 2008.

[Pale Rider]

Hello? You said I was contradicting myself, and didn't bring shit to the table to back it up.

So again, for the record, I believe every word of what I said regarding flag burning. No hot air, no bullshit. And there's nothing contradictory (that I'm aware of) about those statements.

And by the way, don't pretend I ever accused you of being contradictory. I don't have any patience with moronic, turn-everything-around bullshit, either.

Lookie here you ball kissing faggot... what you said was you don't think it's right to burn a flag, and then you said, but I love living in a country where you can burn a flag... wha?

Hey... don't burn that flag.... er... I mean... LIGHT 'EM UP BOYS.... God this is a great country where we can BURN OUR FLAG!

Yes, you contradict yourself on a horrendous level. Either you're FOR IT, or AGAINST IT. You can't have it both ways moron.

[ranger]

The Confederate flag stands for slavery and secession from the Union. Anyone who flies that flag is an unpatriotic racist. Period. As is anyone who takes any pride at all in their "Confederate ancestry." Those people were traitors to the US and have shamed themselves.

The Confederate flag stands for people who believe in minimal federal government interference and states rights. Those people believe in what the Founding Fathers believed in, that a large federal government is the biggest enemy to the people of this country.

Those who believe the Civil War was all about freeing the poor slaves have read the wrong history books and are naive idiots.

[typomaniac]

Lookie here you ball kissing faggot... what you said was you don't think it's right to burn a flag, and then you said, but I love living in a country where you can burn a flag... wha?

Hey... don't burn that flag.... er... I mean... LIGHT 'EM UP BOYS.... God this is a great country where we can BURN OUR FLAG!

Yes, you contradict yourself on a horrendous level. Either you're FOR IT, or AGAINST IT. You can't have it both ways moron.

I'm against DOING it. I'm NOT against banning it just because it offends me. Or is that too tough for you?

[Pale Rider]

I'm against DOING it. I'm NOT against banning it just because it offends me. Or is that too tough for you?

That's where you lose me... if you're against burning the American flag, then you should be against burning the American flag period, and it should be outlawed.

You want to have it both ways. It's chicken shit.

[Roomy]

That's where you lose me... if you're against burning the American flag, then you should be against burning the American flag period, and it should be outlawed.

You want to have it both ways. It's chicken shit.

Keep your flags, I couldn't give a fuck about my flag until someone fucks it off, and so the world turns:laugh2:

[typomaniac]

That's where you lose me... if you're against burning the American flag, then you should be against burning the American flag period, and it should be outlawed.

You want to have it both ways. It's chicken shit.

And that's where you lose me: I'm not going to outlaw something just because I'm offended by it.

The First Amendment applies to EVERYONE, not just you and me. One of the prices America pays for freedom is that it will always be full of assholes who disagree with you, and some of them are guaranteed to piss you off. What's chicken shit is trying to outlaw asshol-ish behavior, and that's what being against a flag burning ban is (or should be) about.

[Pale Rider]

And that's where you lose me: I'm not going to outlaw something just because I'm offended by it.

The First Amendment applies to EVERYONE, not just you and me. One of the prices America pays for freedom is that it will always be full of assholes who disagree with you, and some of them are guaranteed to piss you off. What's chicken shit is trying to outlaw asshol-ish behavior, and that's what being against a flag burning ban is (or should be) about.

Obviously there are millions of people that disagree with you, including me. The American flag is NOT just "something." It's the symbol of everything this country is, it's the symbol of everyone that's fought and died for it, it embodies the whole essence of what America is. If you think that's just "something," then that is where we're at opposite ends. I think it's "EVERYTHING," and I'll beat the shit out of the first person I see burning one. It should be illegal, and I've worked to make it so and supported the movenment with money.

[ranger]

First they want you to tolerate flag burning, then they want you to tolerate gay marriage, then they want you to tolerate a socialist president, what's next?

What's right is right and wrong is wrong. The only shades of gray are the ones used by people trying to get away with things they know they shouldn't be doing.

[Hagbard Celine]

First they want you to tolerate flag burning, then they want you to tolerate gay marriage, then they want you to tolerate a socialist president, what's next?

What's right is right and wrong is wrong. The only shades of gray are the ones used by people trying to get away with things they know they shouldn't be doing.

Nope, you're wrong.

[ranger]

Nope, you're wrong.


Care to elaborate on this comment?

[Hagbard Celine]

Care to elaborate on this comment?

Do I really need to? You genuinely believe that everything in life is black and white but I'll bet you that you can't come up with one thing that I couldn't find an example of "grayness" to refute that premise. Go ahead. Try.

[ranger]

Do I really need to? You genuinely believe that everything in life is black and white but I'll bet you that you can't come up with one thing that I couldn't find an example of "grayness" to refute that premise. Go ahead. Try.


Check out the other thread on this but off the top of my head, there's murder, robbery, rape, theft, child molestation, child abuse, sexual abuse, arson, shoplifting, kidnapping, and driving under the influence.

Care to find something that's gray? Oh yeah, you tried in the other thread and got your ass handed to you.

[ranger]

You only want it to be gray so you can do what you want and feel justified in doing it.

[actsnoblemartin]

:clap:

i ocouldnt have said it better


Obviously there are millions of people that disagree with you, including me. The American flag is NOT just "something." It's the symbol of everything this country is, it's the symbol of everyone that's fought and died for it, it embodies the whole essence of what America is. If you think that's just "something," then that is where we're at opposite ends. I think it's "EVERYTHING," and I'll beat the shit out of the first person I see burning one. It should be illegal, and I've worked to make it so and supported the movenment with money.

[Classact]

Why do you think that was the way it was?

The war between the north and south was a self righteous religious war, the ending of slavery was a religious movement and not a governmental movement.

Why didn't the north have as many slaves as the south? How many southerners owned slaves, was it ten, hundreds, thousands, ten of thousands or millions of slave owners? Were the owners of slaves in the south a minority or a majority, facts please?

Why would a majority of non-slave holder southerners fight for the right of a minority of slave owners rights to have slaves fight the north to the death?

Read the history of the period and get back with me.Still waiting...

[DragonStryk72]

You chickenshit racsists will never cease to avoid the subject. Have you ever considered an honest argument?

Go back to page one, and read it this time, Psycho. And continue reading. the confederate flag issues was already answered fantastically by Hobbit.

[DragonStryk72]

First they want you to tolerate flag burning, then they want you to tolerate gay marriage, then they want you to tolerate a socialist president, what's next?

What's right is right and wrong is wrong. The only shades of gray are the ones used by people trying to get away with things they know they shouldn't be doing.

Yes, actually, first we tolerated flag burning, back when our forefathers were doing it. Then people decided to make the symbol more important than the people it represents.

just like they wanted us to tolerate blacks in our schools back in the 60s(one of the few times I agree with government intervention in a social issue). It must be so easy to simply blame people who are in anyway seeing a balanced view of things. I mean, yeah, there are some things that are black and white, but there are always going to be grey areas, which are neither good nor evil, only a choice that we have to make.

[typomaniac]

Obviously there are millions of people that disagree with you, including me. The American flag is NOT just "something." It's the symbol of everything this country is, it's the symbol of everyone that's fought and died for it, it embodies the whole essence of what America is. If you think that's just "something," then that is where we're at opposite ends. I think it's "EVERYTHING," and I'll beat the shit out of the first person I see burning one. It should be illegal, and I've worked to make it so and supported the movenment with money.
There are going to be millions of Americans who disagree with you no matter who you are or what you believe. And, for the record, I wouldn't say that the American flag is nothing more than a 3-colored piece of cloth. Of course it's a symbol. Which (IMO) is why burning it is nothing more than a stupid ploy for attention that detracts from whatever the burner's message is. (As I said in my original post on the topic.)

More power to you if you want to finance a movement to amend the Constitution to outlaw it, but I wouldn't back such an amendment in a million years. Laws like this are similar to the new "saggy pants" bans in various southern towns: they have nothing to do with keeping Americans free and everything to do with extending government control over the people.

[typomaniac]

The war between the north and south was a self righteous religious war, the ending of slavery was a religious movement...The religious factor was incidental. The real motive was economic domination.
Why would a majority of non-slave holder southerners fight for the right of a minority of slave owners rights to have slaves fight the north to the death?Because the majority depended on that minority for their own livelihoods.

[Classact]

The religious factor was incidental. The real motive was economic domination.Because the majority depended on that minority for their own livelihoods.You are using crayons again... Look at the US constitution and take note of the three classes of people, property owners, Indentured Servants and Slaves.

What was the difference between the north and the south? The north consists of less farming area and was therefore more prone to be influenced by the industrial revolution.

If you consider that in 1905 when my father, a son of a farm owner had 11 brothers and sisters you must ask why? There were no automated machines to do the labor so labor was done with a large work force of children to assist in the kitchen and the fields. Today the "man work days" required to support our lifestyle is at a rate of about 177 people for each citizen, or in other words to provide the same services that energy operated machines, heating and lighting provides would take the labor of 177 men.

In the north the slaves were primarily white men on contracts called indentured servants. These servant/slaves did the work to offset rich people to have comfort without holding slaves... http://www.geocities.com/nai_cilh/servitude.html In the south the rich large land owners held black slaves and the remainder of the smaller farmers had large families just like my grandfather had to do the work. In the north and the south trade was king and ports were the heart of the king.

So in the north as the white slaves were released from their contracts they either moved west to take free land or worked in the industrial areas that had sprung up as a result of the industrial revolution. In the south all life was based on agriculture and trade (through the ports) and very little industrialization existed in comparison to the north.

The idea of freeing the slaves came from the North, Canada to be exact, the origin of the "Great Awakening" (Google it) a religious movement that moved south in the late 1700's and early 1800's. Canadians repatriated many slaves back to Africa and later so did America, see Monrovia (Google it) a nation state in Africa where slaves were repatriated by president Monroe.

It was very easy and self righteous for the north to end slavery since their families had no harm since no land or work would be offset by freeing slaves. When Lincoln blocked the port with military forces he provoked war without attempting to take into consideration alternatives to ending the black slave situation. It was this trade obstruction that caused the south to rise up and not defense of slavery so the god damned confederate flag has nothing to do with fucking slaves and everything to do with trade and poor diplomacy conducted by Lincoln.

[DragonStryk72]

You are using crayons again... Look at the US constitution and take note of the three classes of people, property owners, Indentured Servants and Slaves.

What was the difference between the north and the south? The north consists of less farming area and was therefore more prone to be influenced by the industrial revolution.

If you consider that in 1905 when my father, a son of a farm owner had 11 brothers and sisters you must ask why? There were no automated machines to do the labor so labor was done with a large work force of children to assist in the kitchen and the fields. Today the "man work days" required to support our lifestyle is at a rate of about 177 people for each citizen, or in other words to provide the same services that energy operated machines, heating and lighting provides would take the labor of 177 men.

In the north the slaves were primarily white men on contracts called indentured servants. These servant/slaves did the work to offset rich people to have comfort without holding slaves... http://www.geocities.com/nai_cilh/servitude.html In the south the rich large land owners held black slaves and the remainder of the smaller farmers had large families just like my grandfather had to do the work. In the north and the south trade was king and ports were the heart of the king.

So in the north as the white slaves were released from their contracts they either moved west to take free land or worked in the industrial areas that had sprung up as a result of the industrial revolution. In the south all life was based on agriculture and trade (through the ports) and very little industrialization existed in comparison to the north.

The idea of freeing the slaves came from the North, Canada to be exact, the origin of the "Great Awakening" (Google it) a religious movement that moved south in the late 1700's and early 1800's. Canadians repatriated many slaves back to Africa and later so did America, see Monrovia (Google it) a nation state in Africa where slaves were repatriated by president Monroe.

It was very easy and self righteous for the north to end slavery since their families had no harm since no land or work would be offset by freeing slaves. When Lincoln blocked the port with military forces he provoked war without attempting to take into consideration alternatives to ending the black slave situation. It was this trade obstruction that caused the south to rise up and not defense of slavery so the god damned confederate flag has nothing to do with fucking slaves and everything to do with trade and poor diplomacy conducted by Lincoln.

Remember as well that technically, slavery still existed in the north, it wasn't until 1863, when the English were preparing to back the south, that the Emancipation Proclamation was finally put out.

[typomaniac]

When Lincoln blocked the port with military forces he provoked war without attempting to take into consideration alternatives to ending the black slave situation. It was this trade obstruction that caused the south to rise up and not defense of slavery so the god damned confederate flag has nothing to do with fucking slaves and everything to do with trade and poor diplomacy conducted by Lincoln.

Congratulations, you just proved my point for me. The Civil War was a war of economic domination.

:clap:

[Mr. P]

Congratulations, you just proved my point for me. The Civil War was a war of economic domination.

:clap:

Yep..but some slavery stuff too...but most of the cause was economic issues.

Next, we need to get past this 'civil war' stuff..it wasn't, it was a war between the states.

[Psychoblues]

The confederate flag continues to be a symbol of human oppression, ignorance, power usurption by those that would gladly send young men to war without personal or economic damage to themselves and American disagreement. Wouldn't you agree?

[actsnoblemartin]

my understanding

The south wanted slaves for two primary reasons: economic and racism

The north opposed slavery on humanitarian grounds and didnt need slaves as far as i know

the south succeeded, and the north fought to keep them in the union. Im sure the war was fought mainly for economic reasons, but it was also fought by those who opposed slavery and those who were for it.

Thus, america is not as bad as most want us to believe.

[Psychoblues]

The conversation concerns the confederate flag, martin.



my understanding

America is not as bad as most want us to believe.

Are you still flying yours?

[actsnoblemartin]

yes, and my nazi flag too :laugh2:


The conversation concerns the confederate flag, martin.




Are you still flying yours?

[actsnoblemartin]

but many associate the south, or the southern states or even today with the confederate, and they hate america because of it

that was my point


The conversation concerns the confederate flag, martin.




Are you still flying yours?

[typomaniac]

Yep..but some slavery stuff too...but most of the cause was economic issues.

Next, we need to get past this 'civil war' stuff..it wasn't, it was a war between the states.

I would agree that (in the paraphrased words of Axl Rose), there's nothing "civil" about war. But it's also wrong to call it a war between the states, I believe. Shouldn't it be a war AMONG the states? :D

[Classact]

Remember as well that technically, slavery still existed in the north, it wasn't until 1863, when the English were preparing to back the south, that the Emancipation Proclamation was finally put out.I think it was much to do about state rights and not slavery in the beginning. It was when the free soil party was founded in IL that slavery entered. The northern states, especially NY and MA were involved in the Homestead Act in expanding westward. The free soil party (Lincoln's original party) wanted the new territories free from slaves. The fear was that the southern states "rights" would be minimized by a majority of states from the north that had grouped together. It was an argument of state rights verses Jefferson's "All men are created equal" argument. Jefferson didn't die until 1826 so maybe someone should have asked him leading up to this argument? Like you said the north held slaves, white and black throughout the war. I've been to Jefferson's home and I do believe he had slave quarters as did Washington. Considering only 30% of white northerners were free men I would tend to think it was state right issue and politics where the mob gangs up on the minority.

[Pale Rider]

There are going to be millions of Americans who disagree with you no matter who you are or what you believe. And, for the record, I wouldn't say that the American flag is nothing more than a 3-colored piece of cloth. Of course it's a symbol. Which (IMO) is why burning it is nothing more than a stupid ploy for attention that detracts from whatever the burner's message is. (As I said in my original post on the topic.)

More power to you if you want to finance a movement to amend the Constitution to outlaw it, but I wouldn't back such an amendment in a million years. Laws like this are similar to the new "saggy pants" bans in various southern towns: they have nothing to do with keeping Americans free and everything to do with extending government control over the people.

You might have had a point, but when you compare burning an American flag to some stupid little punk with his pants hanging off his ass, you lose this hand in spades.

Yes, burning the American flag should be against the law. That is my opinion. It is anyones right to disagree.

[DragonStryk72]

The confederate flag continues to be a symbol of human oppression, ignorance, power usurption by those that would gladly send young men to war without personal or economic damage to themselves and American disagreement. Wouldn't you agree?

Nope, not at all, and if you would read any of the well put point against that thought, then you would have gotten that by now. Crack a damn history book, Psycho!

[Pale Rider]

Yep..but some slavery stuff too...but most of the cause was economic issues.

Next, we need to get past this 'civil war' stuff..it wasn't, it was a war between the states.

Yeah, well... we need another one.... between the liberals and the conservatives.

[DragonStryk72]

I think it was much to do about state rights and not slavery in the beginning. It was when the free soil party was founded in IL that slavery entered. The northern states, especially NY and MA were involved in the Homestead Act in expanding westward. The free soil party (Lincoln's original party) wanted the new territories free from slaves. The fear was that the southern states "rights" would be minimized by a majority of states from the north that had grouped together. It was an argument of state rights verses Jefferson's "All men are created equal" argument. Jefferson didn't die until 1826 so maybe someone should have asked him leading up to this argument? Like you said the north held slaves, white and black throughout the war. I've been to Jefferson's home and I do believe he had slave quarters as did Washington. Considering only 30% of white northerners were free men I would tend to think it was state right issue and politics where the mob gangs up on the minority.

Okay, Jefferson did have slave quarters, but he saw slavery as being hypocritical when you're proclaming "All men are created equal", and fighting for liberty while keeping slaves at the same time. However, he also realized the issue was a divisive one that they could not afford with the war with england coming up, so he simply did it his own way: He freed his slaves, and began paying them.


my understanding

The south wanted slaves for two primary reasons: economic and racism

The north opposed slavery on humanitarian grounds and didnt need slaves as far as i know

the south succeeded, and the north fought to keep them in the union. Im sure the war was fought mainly for economic reasons, but it was also fought by those who opposed slavery and those who were for it.

Thus, america is not as bad as most want us to believe.

Okay, the thing is, slavery was the entire economic basis of the south, both by trade, and by labor base on the farms, and the southern states were not being given any choice in the matter, nor any timeline to convert over, simply a, "Do it!" command from the federal government, that the federal government had no right to give. Facing the destruction of their entire economy, the south of course chose to fight back, and did so by the use of secession rights guaranteed them by the Constitution of the United States of America, with all southern states turning over a vast majority in favor of secession.

It would be like being the CEO of Wal-Mart, receiving that kind of money, and with that many jobs, when the government decides to outlaw Superstores, deciding that they are predatory businesses. You wouldn't let it stand anymore than they would.

Now, honestly, the racism aspect didn't really get started until after the war, when the southern economy and political branches were crippled by the North, turning it into something much like what Germany became after World War I. Now, of course, this sets up the perfect opportunity for someone with a good line of bullshit to step in and pick out a scapegoat. But who to pick? the government? Can't, they already beat us into the ground. The military? No, of course not, they were doing as ordered. However, the newly "freed" slaves (quotations are because almost all of the blacks of the time worked in exactly place, doing the same job for the same length each day as had been doing before, and were getting paid just enough to never be able to get out on their own, due to the shitty economy) had no proponents for them, as the federal government had lost interest in blacks as soon as the war finished out. they, much like the Jewish people in Germany, were a convenient scapegoat.

Now, a better example of how to end slavery would be to look to England. when the English government decided that slavery needed to be abolished, what they did was to simply go through, and buy out the existing slaves, thus give the traders, as well as the farmers, a nice little buffer between them and the destruction of their livelihood.

[typomaniac]

You might have had a point, but when you compare burning an American flag to some stupid little punk with his pants hanging off his ass, you lose this hand in spades.

Yes, burning the American flag should be against the law. That is my opinion. It is anyones right to disagree.

I still had a point. But it looks like you took things as far as they can intelligently go with your last 3 sentences.


eah, well... we need another one.... between the liberals and the conservatives.You wouldn't want that: the liberals would win hands down. Reason being, there are almost no real conservatives left in the US. Ditto heads and Bible thumpers don't qualify.

[Pale Rider]

I still had a point. But it looks like you took things as far as they can intelligently go with your last 3 sentences.
Don't use sophomoric, nonsensical examples. Try something adult.


You wouldn't want that: the liberals would win hands down. Reason being, there are almost no real conservatives left in the US. Ditto heads and Bible thumpers don't qualify.
Riiiiiiiiight.... the very same terrorist appeasing, white flag waving, war protesting, gun outlawing, group hug, hold hands and sing kumbaya, flower children, hippie, liberal, anti military, pussies are going to whip the military joining, terrorist fighting, gun owning, VFW/American Legion member, Ted Nugent loving rednecks, looking for some liberal to beat up, conservatives..... pppphhtt.... :laugh:

Damn... what a joke.... :lmao:

[Mr. P]

Yeah, well... we need another one.... between the liberals and the conservatives.

But Pale, it won't be "fair" the liberals wouldn't be armed! :laugh2:

[ranger]

But Pale, it won't be "fair" the liberals wouldn't be armed! :laugh2:


That's too bad for their dumbasses.....

[typomaniac]

Don't use sophomoric, nonsensical examples. Try something adult.You know, Pale, banning flag burning and bagging saggy pants are still based on the same principle (a bunch of bored prudes are offended by something, so they pass a law against it). It's just a question of which people are offended, and by how much.


Riiiiiiiiight.... the very same terrorist appeasing, white flag waving, war protesting, gun outlawing, group hug, hold hands and sing kumbaya, flower children, hippie, liberal, anti military, pussies are going to whip the military joining, terrorist fighting, gun owning, VFW/American Legion member, Ted Nugent loving rednecks, looking for some liberal to beat up, conservatives..... pppphhtt.... :laugh:

Damn... what a joke.... :lmao:Yeah, but even 20 million hippie flower children should be able to handle 10 conservatives. :p

[Mr. P]

That's too bad for their dumbasses.....

Yep

[Pale Rider]

You know, Pale, banning flag burning and bagging saggy pants are still based on the same principle (a bunch of bored prudes are offended by something, so they pass a law against it). It's just a question of which people are offended, and by how much.
I don't give a rats patootie about punks and baggy pants. It's not even in the same category as burning an American flag, and you comparing it is ridiculous.


Yeah, but even 20 million hippie flower children should be able to handle 10 conservatives. :p
It was slightly amusing once... twice is just pitiful.

[typomaniac]

I don't give a rats patootie about punks and baggy pants. It's not even in the same category as burning an American flag, and you comparing it is ridiculous.I never said it was in the same category, hoss. Just that it's the same principle.



It was slightly amusing once... twice is just pitiful.Except that there are plenty of morons around here who need to hear the same thing at least 5 or 6 times to get it. I try to make concessions to them whenever I can.

It isn't just about you and me, after all...

[manu1959]

can you be fired for wearing baggy, saggy pants hitched up below your ass ............

[Pale Rider]

I never said it was in the same category, hoss. Just that it's the same principle.
Doesn't make any sense to me to compare burning the symbol of our country to some little punks dirty, skanky underwear hanging out because his pants are down below his ass crack. In my opinion, nothing compares to burning an American flag. It's an offense that's separate to it's own, and it should be against the law. I know you don't agree, but that's your right. No problem.



Except that there are plenty of morons around here who need to hear the same thing at least 5 or 6 times to get it. I try to make concessions to them whenever I can.

It isn't just about you and me, after all...
Then have at it. I surely don't want to stop you from getting through to the morons, or beating a dead horse.... little joe.

[Mr. P]

I support the right of anyone who wants to burn a flag, as long as they own it.

I also support the right of someone kickin their ass for doing so.

I'll be in the kick ass group, but NEVER support any Constitutional amendment to make this action illegal.

[typomaniac]

I support the right of anyone who wants to burn a flag, as long as they own it.

I also support the right of someone kickin their ass for doing so.

I'll be in the kick ass group, but NEVER support any Constitutional amendment to make this action illegal.

I'm with you on #1 and #3. The "right" to kick ass in #2 doesn't actually exist, and I wouldn't defend it as a right. I'd probably just look the other way while it was going on.

[Mr. P]

I'm with you on #1 and #3. The "right" to kick ass in #2 doesn't actually exist, and I wouldn't defend it as a right. I'd probably just look the other way while it was going on.

#2 You have a right to kick ass...just be ready for the consequences of your actions.

[Pale Rider]

I'm with you on #1 and #3. The "right" to kick ass in #2 doesn't actually exist, and I wouldn't defend it as a right. I'd probably just look the other way while it was going on.


#2 You have a right to kick ass...just be ready for the consequences of your actions.

If it was illegal to burn a flag, then I wouldn't kick someones as for doing it. I'd call the cops and have them arrested.

Yes, it should be illegal, and I support that constitutional amendment all the way. It almost passed last time, and more than likely will the next, unless we have some dog eared, racist, America hating, liberal nigger for President.

[typomaniac]

If it was illegal to burn a flag, then I wouldn't kick someones as for doing it. I'd call the cops and have them arrested.

Yes, it should be illegal, and I support that constitutional amendment all the way. It almost passed last time, and more than likely will the next, unless we have some dog eared, racist, America hating, liberal nigger for President.
Jeremiah Wright isn't running, moron. :slap:

[Pale Rider]

Jeremiah Wright isn't running, moron.

No, but his twenty year long adopted son, student, best friend, hussein is, MORON. :slap:

[5stringJeff]

my understanding

The south wanted slaves for two primary reasons: economic and racism

The north opposed slavery on humanitarian grounds and didnt need slaves as far as i know

the south succeeded, and the north fought to keep them in the union. Im sure the war was fought mainly for economic reasons, but it was also fought by those who opposed slavery and those who were for it.

Thus, america is not as bad as most want us to believe.

First, Northerners and Southerners were both just as racist in the 19th century. Lincoln didn't believe the black race to be equal to the white race in any regard.

Second, "the North" did not oppose slavery. Four of the states that remained with the Union (Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri) were slave states. And in other northern states, abolition was a minority viewpoint.

Third, slavery was brought up as a reason for the North to continue the war only to keep Britian and France from recognizing the Confederacy in 1863. If you read the Emancipation Proclamation, you'll note that Lincoln only declared slaves to be freed in areas that were not under Northern control. Slavery did not end until the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment in 1866.