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Classact
02-17-2008, 07:11 AM
Jonah Goldberg, in his new book Liberal Fascism explains how liberals are the true fascists http://calitreview.com/topics/politics/303/

I was watching this guy talk on CSPAN2 Book Review yesterday (will probably be on again today or tomorrow) and was very impressed in his conclusion that Obama was equal to the new age Hitler. I'll post only the link above but leave it up to you to Google the key words since there are plenty of links to allow you to debate the great horror of Liberal Fascism!

bullypulpit
02-17-2008, 08:36 AM
Despite Jonah Goldberg's claim to the contrary, history has shown us that fascism is primarily a phenomenon of the political right. We need look no further than Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, and yes, Stalin's Russia.

Unless there is a factual basis for the comparison, and I haven't seen any, Goldberg's claim is an empty one.

The likely reason behind this rhetoric is that the GOP leadership wants a Hillary as the Democratic nominee so they can rally the red-meat base with their almost pathological hatred of anything Clinton. An Obama campaign scares the crap out of them as he doesn't have the baggage to latch onto and throw around as Hillary does. Rest assured that if he is the nominee, the GOP won't hesitate to play the race card.

DrJohn
02-17-2008, 10:00 AM
The right wing trashing of the left is cranking up....

Dilloduck
02-17-2008, 10:04 AM
The right wing trashing of the left is cranking up....

Did you expect that our two glorious parties were going to be nice to each other in an election year ?? :laugh2:

DrJohn
02-17-2008, 10:05 AM
Did you expect that our two glorious parties were going to be nice to each other in an election year ?? :laugh2:


No, but Hitler?!?!?!???

Dilloduck
02-17-2008, 10:07 AM
No, but Hitler?!?!?!???

of course---that's who every politician gets compared to when you want to trash them.

gabosaurus
02-17-2008, 12:22 PM
Sorry dude, term limits prohibit Hitler from running again.

Classact
02-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Despite Jonah Goldberg's claim to the contrary, history has shown us that fascism is primarily a phenomenon of the political right. We need look no further than Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, and yes, Stalin's Russia.

Unless there is a factual basis for the comparison, and I haven't seen any, Goldberg's claim is an empty one.

The likely reason behind this rhetoric is that the GOP leadership wants a Hillary as the Democratic nominee so they can rally the red-meat base with their almost pathological hatred of anything Clinton. An Obama campaign scares the crap out of them as he doesn't have the baggage to latch onto and throw around as Hillary does. Rest assured that if he is the nominee, the GOP won't hesitate to play the race card.The writer, Jonah Goldberg is on CSPAN2 right now, turn it on and he will answer your questions.

Kathianne
02-17-2008, 01:59 PM
The writer, Jonah Goldberg is on CSPAN2 right now, turn it on and he will answer your questions.

I'm unsure how Goldberg is coming across on C-Span, but I have the book right here, pg 2:


"For what we call liberalism-the refurbished edifice of American Progressivism-is in fact a descendant and manifestation of fascism. This doesn't mean it's the same thing as Nazism. Nor is it the twin of Italian Fascism. But Progressivism was a sister movement of fascism, and today's liberalism is the daughter of Progressivism. One could strain the comparison and say the today's liberalism is the well-intention niece of European fascism. She is hardly identical to her uglier relations, but she nonetheless carries an embarrassing family resemblance that few will admit to recognizing."

Classact
02-17-2008, 02:07 PM
I'm unsure how Goldberg is coming across on C-Span, but I have the book right here, pg 2:


"For what we call liberalism-the refurbished edifice of American Progressivism-is in fact a descendant and manifestation of fascism. This doesn't mean it's the same thing as Nazism. Nor is it the twin of Italian Fascism. But Progressivism was a sister movement of fascism, and today's liberalism is the daughter of Progressivism. One could strain the comparison and say the today's liberalism is the well-intention niece of European fascism. She is hardly identical to her uglier relations, but she nonetheless carries an embarrassing family resemblance that few will admit to recognizing."He is in a question and answer session right now, I googled one of his comments about H. G. Wells and Roosevelt and found this link and interesting review also... http://www.amazon.com/review/R377E4P4XCE0J3


Here are the common features of liberal fascism:

- Creating a crisis atmosphere to panic the public into accepting an agenda
- Worship of the state
- Use of socialist economic policies, though usually through regulation rather than direct ownership
- Mobilizing society to cooperate to solve national problems ("the moral equivalent of war")
- Obsession with identity politics
- Demonizing certain groups (Jews, white males)
- Undermining parental authority so that children are more loyal to the state
- Limiting debate through regulations (examples include McCain-Feingold and codes against "hate" speech) and dominating communications (academia, entertainment, mainstream media) Sounds like the Democratic Party practices.

Kathianne
02-17-2008, 02:13 PM
He is in a question and answer session right now, I googled one of his comments about H. G. Wells and Roosevelt and found this link and interesting review also... http://www.amazon.com/review/R377E4P4XCE0J3

It's a very interesting read, I'd heartily recommend buying the book. I'm still going through it; rereading The Looming Tower by Wright; What Works In Schools; and As You Like It, Shakespeare, considering it for next year reading class.

It does get confusing reading so many books at the same time.

diuretic
02-17-2008, 09:41 PM
“Fascism” is such an overused word that it has almost become meaningless. How are you defining it in this book?

Definitions vary wildly among academics

Credibility shot down immediately. "Fascism" has an accepted meaning, it doesn't mean what Goldberg wants it to mean. And his rambling response shows that he knows it, caught out in the first question.

Kathianne
02-17-2008, 09:43 PM
Credibility shot down immediately. "Fascism" has an accepted meaning, it doesn't mean what Goldberg wants it to mean. And his rambling response shows that he knows it, caught out in the first question.

Actually political scientists and historians disagree on whether fascism is a right wing or left wing ideology. For myself, it seems to be where they meet at the 360 mark.

diuretic
02-17-2008, 11:46 PM
Actually political scientists and historians disagree on whether fascism is a right wing or left wing ideology. For myself, it seems to be where they meet at the 360 mark.

And so it could be but the blending of the state (such state, by definition, not being a liberal democracy) and industrial interests to benefit an elite which exists to control the populus is fascism.

I don't see fascism as being of the left, the left is the province of socialism and communism.

Now since we're discussing abstract concepts (not applied concepts) I have to argue the objectives of socialism and communism expressly reject the notion of elite while fascism expressly embraces it.

I know, I know, socialism and communism as practised have in fact given us state capitalism (the USSR) and communism especially requires totalitarian control (USSR, PRC, N Korea, E Germany etc), but we're talking about abstract concepts, not the corrupting effect of power (well not yet we're not but I bet we get there :D).

If Goldberg were to argue that the left - and the so-called soft or "liberal" left - is capable of great authoritarianism I would probably be inclined to agree. I mean take a look at the UK Labour government. They've turned out to be a bullying government, just like the Tories under Thatcher. But they ain't fascists.

actsnoblemartin
02-18-2008, 12:02 AM
The nationalist socialist party

sounds right wing to me

:laugh2:


Despite Jonah Goldberg's claim to the contrary, history has shown us that fascism is primarily a phenomenon of the political right. We need look no further than Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, and yes, Stalin's Russia.

Unless there is a factual basis for the comparison, and I haven't seen any, Goldberg's claim is an empty one.

The likely reason behind this rhetoric is that the GOP leadership wants a Hillary as the Democratic nominee so they can rally the red-meat base with their almost pathological hatred of anything Clinton. An Obama campaign scares the crap out of them as he doesn't have the baggage to latch onto and throw around as Hillary does. Rest assured that if he is the nominee, the GOP won't hesitate to play the race card.

diuretic
02-18-2008, 12:11 AM
The nationalist socialist party

sounds right wing to me

:laugh2:

It is - actions are better than labels martin - remember they bashed up all the left wingers :laugh2:

avatar4321
02-18-2008, 02:03 AM
It is - actions are better than labels martin - remember they bashed up all the left wingers :laugh2:

families always fight the most.

diuretic
02-18-2008, 03:17 AM
families always fight the most.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't sibling rivalry.

Classact
02-18-2008, 06:30 AM
Credibility shot down immediately. "Fascism" has an accepted meaning, it doesn't mean what Goldberg wants it to mean. And his rambling response shows that he knows it, caught out in the first question.Not exactly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The name of the book was not based on "his" assessment but that of the Wilson-Roosevelt birthmark of modern Progressive Liberalism...


The great merit of Liberal Fascism is that Jonah Goldberg uses liberal icons' own words and deeds speak for themselves. Liberal fascism is a term created by H.G. Wells. Wells used it approvingly. Goldberg provides a chilling quote from the first modern liberal president, Woodrow Wilson that the leader provides the power while "others supply only the materials on which that power operates ... It is the power which dictates." The next modern liberal president, Franklin Roosevelt, who established the model for liberal economics, said that his policies were more "orderly" than what Russia and Hitler were doing. New Deal and Fascist officials praised each other.In the book Goldberg concludes H. G. Wells was a loony left wing radical that published many Move On - Code Pink - Enviro- aso papers that had a swinging door access to Roosevelt... H. G. Wells offered up Nazi Liberalism, Fascists Liberalism to Roosevelt before settling with Progressive Liberalism as a label for the movement.

diuretic
02-18-2008, 07:22 AM
Not exactly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The name of the book was not based on "his" assessment but that of the Wilson-Roosevelt birthmark of modern Progressive Liberalism...

No I don't accept that for one moment. Goldberg knows exactly what "fascism" means but he has re-defined it for his own needs, that is to smear his ideological opponents. If you want to understand what he's doing then read or re-read "NIneteen Eighty-Four" and pay particular attention to the annexe "Newspeak". In the interview he has dodged the question and rambled on with his propaganda.

You might also take note of one of the main ideas in the book, that "he who controls the past controls the future", straight out of "Nineteen Eighty-Four". No, it wasn't Orwell who invented these ideas, he knew what the totalitarians were up to and he wrote the book to expose - ironically enough - the tactics of the Soviets under Stalin.



In the book Goldberg concludes H. G. Wells was a loony left wing radical that published many Move On - Code Pink - Enviro- aso papers that had a swinging door access to Roosevelt... H. G. Wells offered up Nazi Liberalism, Fascists Liberalism to Roosevelt before settling with Progressive Liberalism as a label for the movement.

Wells was a Fabian Socialist.

Heck even Blind Freddy can see what's going on here. This is pure historical revisionism. What will happen is that website after website will uncritically and in some cases, mischievously, repeat this stuff. The meme will be let loose across the Internet and because critical thinking is unfashionable among many, it will be sucked down uncritically.

Irony upon irony, Orwell invented the propagandist of Newspeak and doublethink and gave him the name Goldstein (it's said that Orwell was referring to Lev Bronstein in using Goldstein, Lev Bronstein is better known as Trotsky).

This is good, watching historical revisionism actually happening in front of me. I'll follow this closely, it's fascinating.

diuretic
02-18-2008, 07:27 AM
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/01/13/jonah-goldbergs-revisionist-definitions/


Ah…the Doughy Pantload strikes again. Speaking in front of the Heritage Foundation (because, honestly, who else could sit through this tripe?) to pimp his latest book, Liberal Fascism, Jonah Goldberg tries again to prove Moynihan wrong, not only by coming up with his own facts, but his own definitions as well.

The primary definition that Goldberg ignores for his own version is “Fascism.” In Doughy Pantload World, “fascism” means “something bad”. This is something I’ve suspected for many years about conservatives: They don’t actually know the definitions of the epithets they like to throw out to dismiss and demean the left. They just think it means “something bad.” For example:

To sort of start the story, the reason why we see fascism as a thing of the right is because fascism was originally a form of right-wing socialism. Mussolini was born a socialist, he died a socialist, he never abandoned his love of socialism, he was one of the most important socialist intellectuals in Europe and was one of the most important socialist activists in Italy, and the only reason he got dubbed a fascist and therefore a right-winger is because he supported World War I.

Um, actually, not so much. Mussolini was dubbed a fascist because he founded the Fascist Party, you big, fact-ignoring dope.

Jonah’s hatred of Hillary Clinton knows no rational bounds (the original sub-title was “The Totalitarian Temptation From Mussolini to Hillary Clinton”–Mussolini as an American politician–who knew?) and he steals liberally from Naomi Klein to dive head first into the Godwin abyss with fantastical allusions to 1984 and some Big Brother bleak bureaucratic scenario of DMVs with Jumbotrons with nanny-state advisories on breastfeeding, based on Hillary Clinton’s It Takes A Village.

The dizzying logic of it all just shows you why if Jonah Goldberg is one of the great thinkers on the right (and certainly, he’s has prominent enough platforms from which to spew this tripe to argue that point), the right is bankrupt of intellectual honesty and comprehension.

No credibility, as I said. What a joke.

bullypulpit
02-18-2008, 07:44 AM
He is in a question and answer session right now, I googled one of his comments about H. G. Wells and Roosevelt and found this link and interesting review also... http://www.amazon.com/review/R377E4P4XCE0J3

Sounds like the Democratic Party practices.

Never mind that the steps laid out by Mr. Goldberg are those, as history has shown us, used by fascist leaders of any stripe. Never mind that the term "liberal fascism" is an oxymoron. Allow me to direct you to the following article by Naomi Wolfe.
<center><a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment>Fascist America, in 10 easy steps</a></center>

In it she also points out the steps Bush has take towards a fascist government.

Also, for your edification:

<blockquote>Main Entry:<b>1lib·er·al </b>
Pronunciation: \ˈli-b(ə-)rəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lēodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
Date: 14th century

<b>1 a</b>: of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> barchaic : of or befitting a man of free birth <b>2 a</b>: marked by generosity : openhanded <a liberal giver> b: given or provided in a generous and openhanded way



Main Entry: <b>fas·cism</b>
Pronunciation:\ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921

<b>1</b> often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition <b>2:</b> a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge</blockquote>

diuretic
02-18-2008, 07:51 AM
He's eating into Ann Coulter's market share, she'll be furious :laugh2:

bullypulpit
02-18-2008, 07:55 AM
The nationalist socialist party

sounds right wing to me

:laugh2:

Read your history. The Nazis utterly destroyed the left in their rise to power.

bullypulpit
02-18-2008, 08:00 AM
He's eating into Ann Coulter's market share, she'll be furious :laugh2:

It's a man, baby! And she'll (he'll?) kick his ass too.

More to the point Mr. Goldberg has, apparently, liberally (<i>no pun intended</i>) poached from Naomi Wolfe's book, <a href=http://www.amazon.com/End-America-Letter-Warning-Patriot/dp/1933392797/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203339439&sr=8-1>The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot</a>, in which she details how the Bush administration has taken steps towards a fascist state in America.

Kathianne
02-18-2008, 09:44 PM
Never mind that the steps laid out by Mr. Goldberg are those, as history has shown us, used by fascist leaders of any stripe. Never mind that the term "liberal fascism" is an oxymoron. Allow me to direct you to the following article by Naomi Wolfe.
<center><a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment>Fascist America, in 10 easy steps</a></center>

In it she also points out the steps Bush has take towards a fascist government.

Also, for your edification:

<blockquote>Main Entry:<b>1lib·er·al </b>
Pronunciation: \ˈli-b(ə-)rəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lēodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
Date: 14th century

<b>1 a</b>: of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> barchaic : of or befitting a man of free birth <b>2 a</b>: marked by generosity : openhanded <a liberal giver> b: given or provided in a generous and openhanded way



Main Entry: <b>fas·cism</b>
Pronunciation:\ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921

<b>1</b> often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition <b>2:</b> a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge</blockquote>

Try here, more links than we have time for:

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/2007/08/post_419.html


August 24, 2007


The fascists are still coming!
But this time, they're libertarians in deadly sneakers!

I had a pretty good education (at least I like to think I had), and in addition to that, I've read a lot of books about history, including many about the Third Reich. I've studied the origins and rise of both Hitler and Mussolini, and I've read about innumerable fascist and quasi-fascist regimes. The usual stuff like Franco in Spain, Salazar in Portugal, Stroessner in Paraguay, Peron in Argentina (although he was a left/right hybrid), along with some convincing analyses that modern China is actually a fascist, not Communist, state.

But it was under "Bush fascism" that I noticed a steady deterioration in my skills. Not only was I not "getting it" (and failing to recognize the fascism before my very eyes), but a lot of people weren't. I don't know whether to blame Bush entirely for this, but it was during the Bush regime that the definition of fascism seemed to change dramatically, and become infinitely more complicated.

I used to think I knew what fascism was, but the longer Bush was in office, the more the word seemed to take on new meanings. It was as if the word "fascism" had developed an elasticized penumbra, and acquired octopus-like tentacles which reached out and engulfed things which in the old days had not been considered fascism, but which now were. Fascist hegemony was being achieved not by goose-stepping soldiers, but by definitional expansionism -- largely accomplished by computer keyboards.

Quite naively, I resorted to the traditional dictionary definition of fascism:

fascism n. 1. [often cap.] The principles of the Fascisti; also, the movement or government regime embodying those principles.

2. Any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severely nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce and finance, rigid censorship, and forcible suppression of opposition.

Webster's New International Dictionary (Second Ed., 1958)

I was soon scolded by the blogosphere's leading proponent of fascist definitional hegemony, who assured me that the definition of fascism was not to be found in any dictionary, but in the writings of Robert Paxton, whose 2005 definition of fascism is considered widely respected:

"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.''

Notice that the 2005 definition has shifted from the former focus on a style of government to a focus on the thought processes of the people who want to take it over.

Paxton sees fascism not as a type of government but as a mass psychological phenomenon often involving dissent, anarchy, even revolution -- so long as the emotional factors are present. Paxton cites the Ku Klux Klan as an example, not of a fascist government, but as a backlash against legal government:

It may be that the earliest phenomenon that can be functionally related to fascism is American: the Ku Klux Klan. Just after the Civil War, some former Confederate officers, fearing the vote given to African Americans in 1867 by the Radical Reconstructionists, set up a militia to restore an overturned social order. The Klan constituted an alternate civic authority, parallel to the legal state, which, in the eyes of the Klan's founders, no longer defended their community's legitimate interests.

By adopting a uniform (white robe and hood), as well as by their techiques of intimidation and their conviction that violence was justified in the cause of their group's destiny, the first version of the Klan in the defeated American South was arguably a remarkable preview of the way fascist movements were to function in interwar Europe. It should not be surprising, after all, that the most precocious democracies -- the United States and France -- should have generated precocious backlashes against democracy.

Seen this way, fascism need not prevail, and can exist anywhere. Provided, of course, that there's an "obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity," and the "mass-based party of committed nationalist militants." As I posited in another essay, the Nation of Islam would fit this definition. So would the Ayatollah Khomeini's organization. The former became a bit of a joke, while the latter took over the Iranian government.

But what about Bush fascism? Not so neat and tidy, even with the expanded definition. To be accommodating, the term "pseudo fascism" has been proposed. This includes people like Rush Limbaugh ("transmitters" of "eliminationist rhetoric") but not Ward Churchill or Louis Farrakhan, no matter how much they might resemble the Paxton formulation. ....

diuretic
02-19-2008, 03:27 AM
More power to the critical thinkers - on all sides! :cool:

bullypulpit
02-19-2008, 05:06 AM
Try here, more links than we have time for:

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/2007/08/post_419.html

And Mr. Paxton may be closer to the mark with his definition than anyone else. After being defeated in WWI, and the punitive conditions imposed under the Treaty of Versailles, the German population was ripe for being led down the road to a fascist state.

While the Weimar Republic was no bastion of liberalism itself, the elements were in place for it to grow into a stable democracy. Unfortunately they gave too much power into the hands of the executive and, with the coming of the Great Depression and the raging hyperinflation Germany was subjected to the German government tended towards repression. Hitler and his Brownshirts fed into the fears of a Leftist (communist/Jewish/what-have-you) takeover and through a combination of brutal violence and working within the legal system Hitler was eventually elected chancellor. It was downhill from there as anyone perceived as a threat to Nazi ideology was purged from society. The lucky ones escaped.

Dilloduck
02-19-2008, 10:22 PM
He sure talks like Hitler----I dont think the dude can shut up in Houston---anybody listening now ---OMG . He's promised everything :pee:

Dilloduck
02-19-2008, 10:25 PM
damnnnnnnnnnnn---FOX let this sucker go on UNINTERRUPTED for 45 freaking Minutes !!!!!!

DragonStryk72
02-20-2008, 05:56 AM
I lump this guy in pretty much with Coulter, Moore, and Wolfe. their is no fascist movement in America, and if people would stop chuck chuckin' the Nazi terms about, we'd probably be able to get stuff done.