True to our Native Land

[Yurt]

caveat -- i know obama's church has been brought up before, however, it needs to be brought up again. if the mods feel this should be joined with that thread, cool, no worries. i just wanted to bring a stark and fresh look at what is looking like the next president.

______________________________________________

Obama's church -- Trinity United Church of Christ


We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

i believe someone posted something about obama and his followers fearing death, imagine a white person running for president whose church adhered to these same values, except:


We are a congregation which is Unashamedly WHITE and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the WHITE religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an EUROPEAN people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a WHITE worship service and ministries which address the WHITE Community.

Oh yes, whites have been slaves and have experienced the same things. Don't forget how far Rome spread during her tenure. the european whites were savages, slaves and thought of as less than human.

regardless, the most important thing about his faith is this:



true to our native land


by definition his loyalty necessarily must not be with the United States of America. this is not to say that one cannot be loyal to "god" which arguably is not the united states, however, this is different, in that, his loyalty is to another land. his native land. he must remain true to that land, not this land.

[Kathianne]

I've said the same, posted the same, over and over. I really don't get the difference between those that back him and those that back Ron Paul. For the record, I disagree with both.

[retiredman]

bringing up white slavery from the roman empire is a tad far fetched. the fact of the matter is: black people IN THIS COUNTRY were considered property not all that long ago in the sweep of human history. Black people were preemptorily lynched long after they had been freed from the bonds of slavery. Black people were disenfranchised politically in my lifetime. Black people in America have a long and bitter history of second class citizenship. Obama's church seeks to uplift them. His church has the backing and unequivocal support of the United Church of Christ - which is my denomination. But DO keep acting as if being black in America is no different than being white. DO keep making this a major issue in your attempts to denigrate a virtuous public servant. I expected nothing more...and I am sure, neither did he.

[Yurt]

I've said the same, posted the same, over and over. I really don't get the difference between those that back him and those that back Ron Paul. For the record, I disagree with both.

this is why i like bringing ideas that have been said or hashed out in old threads up again:

ron paul? i missed that.


and i believe this is an extremely imporant issue, yet, it has not really surfaced in the media. maybe it was you kathy that said: he is untouchable in our too PC era. if it was someone else, ooops and props to you.

[Yurt]

manfrommaine;206462]bringing up white slavery from the roman empire is a tad far fetched. the fact of the matter is: black people IN THIS COUNTRY were considered property not all that long ago in the sweep of human history.

the way you and your cohorts are going........we might as well bring up slavery from the roman era


Black people were preemptorily lynched long after they had been freed from the bonds of slavery. Black people were disenfranchised politically in my lifetime.

al sharpton just called me and said you are full of black caca cuz his man his running for office. good lord, do you realize the logical fallacy of your statements? you apparently have a timeline on when slavery should no longer be considered, however, it appears that for "you" the black man's issue reigns supreme and should never be forgotten.

as you once told me --> he was editor of the harvard law review :poke: i believe that was approximately 18 years ago.


Black people in America have a long and bitter history of second class citizenship.

as do the irish, jews...... cry me a river. fat people, short people, all are second class citizens. don't forget, he made harvard law review editor. :poke:



Obama's church seeks to uplift them. His church has the backing and unequivocal support of the United Church of Christ - which is my denomination. But DO keep acting as if being black in America is no different than being white. DO keep making this a major issue in your attempts to denigrate a virtuous public servant. I expected nothing more...and I am sure, neither did he.

why didn't you throw in chinese, mexican, indians, and so called half breeds? why isn't he "white" why is it that he is only black to you. and i will make this a major issue:


and remain "true to our native land,"


you are blind if you fail to see the issue. and if a white person said half of what this church said in their "this is us" memo, you would be literally frothing at the mouth.

seriously, get some objectivity and really see what his church stands for and where his loyalty MUST be.

[Dilloduck]

bringing up white slavery from the roman empire is a tad far fetched. the fact of the matter is: black people IN THIS COUNTRY were considered property not all that long ago in the sweep of human history. Black people were preemptorily lynched long after they had been freed from the bonds of slavery. Black people were disenfranchised politically in my lifetime. Black people in America have a long and bitter history of second class citizenship. Obama's church seeks to uplift them. His church has the backing and unequivocal support of the United Church of Christ - which is my denomination. But DO keep acting as if being black in America is no different than being white. DO keep making this a major issue in your attempts to denigrate a virtuous public servant. I expected nothing more...and I am sure, neither did he.

So what's the latest plan the "uplift" blacks ?

[Yurt]

So what's the latest plan the "uplift" blacks ?

ever wonder why oprah jumped on his bandwagon so quick?

[Dilloduck]

ever wonder why oprah jumped on his bandwagon so quick?

So are we talknig about plastic surgery here or what ? :laugh2:

[Yurt]

So are we talknig about plastic surgery here or what ? :laugh2:

did i miss something?

[retiredman]

the way you and your cohorts are going........we might as well bring up slavery from the roman era



al sharpton just called me and said you are full of black caca cuz his man his running for office. good lord, do you realize the logical fallacy of your statements? you apparently have a timeline on when slavery should no longer be considered, however, it appears that for "you" the black man's issue reigns supreme and should never be forgotten.

as you once told me --> he was editor of the harvard law review :poke: i believe that was approximately 18 years ago.



as do the irish, jews...... cry me a river. fat people, short people, all are second class citizens. don't forget, he made harvard law review editor. :poke:




why didn't you throw in chinese, mexican, indians, and so called half breeds? why isn't he "white" why is it that he is only black to you. and i will make this a major issue:




you are blind if you fail to see the issue. and if a white person said half of what this church said in their "this is us" memo, you would be literally frothing at the mouth.

seriously, get some objectivity and really see what his church stands for and where his loyalty MUST be.

I don't know of any white people whose ancestors were brought to America against their will as property.

I have objectivity. I happen to belong to his denomination. My church is fully supportive of his chuch's mission. Uplifting and empowering blacks on the south side of CHicago to lift themselves up from economic empoverishment is a noble mission. The UCC is fully supportive of Trinity. SO am I.

[retiredman]

did i miss something?

just dillo's lame-ass lounge lizard humor.

[Dilloduck]

just dillo's lame-ass lounge lizard humor.

Uplifting and empowering blacks on the south side of CHicago to lift themselves up from economic empoverishment

What in the hell kind of babble is that ?

[Yurt]

=manfrommaine;206479]I don't know of any white people whose ancestors were brought to America against their will as property.

and this matters........why? because a "black" person is running for president.... get over yourself.


I have objectivity. I happen to belong to his denomination.

bullshit. you have no objectivity and have lost all reason by supporting that church's ideals. why don't you go back to the motherland? if your commitment is to the motherland, why are you here?


My church is fully supportive of his chuch's mission. Uplifting and empowering blacks on the south side of CHicago to lift themselves up from economic empoverishment is a noble mission. The UCC is fully supportive of Trinity. SO am I.


you are the biggest hypocrite i have ever met. you shun white slavery because it happened (x) years ago, yet, you have to qualms about forever "uplifting" dark skinned people.

you ALSO again have failed to address the "motherland"

what say you to the loyalty? and don't ignore it ............ again

[retiredman]

and this matters........why? because a "black" person is running for president.... get over yourself.

bullshit. you have no objectivity and have lost all reason by supporting that church's ideals. why don't you go back to the motherland? if your commitment is to the motherland, why are you here?

you are the biggest hypocrite i have ever met. you shun white slavery because it happened (x) years ago, yet, you have to qualms about forever "uplifting" dark skinned people.

you ALSO again have failed to address the "motherland"

what say you to the loyalty? and don't ignore it ............ again

MY motherland is not well defined. My ancestors came from Holland and Germany and Ireland....AND THEY ALL CAME OF THEIR OWN VOLITION. They all decided to leave those countries and come to America to start a new life. The ancestors of most black americans did not make such a choice.

And I do not shun white slavery. If the ancestors of non-Italian caucasian roman slaves were still being economically and socially discriminated against in Italy, I would be all FOR a church that ministered to that flock.

[Dilloduck]

MY motherland is not well defined. My ancestors came from Holland and Germany and Ireland....AND THEY ALL CAME OF THEIR OWN VOLITION. They all decided to leave those countries and come to America to start a new life. The ancestors of most black americans did not make such a choice.

And I do not shun white slavery. If the ancestors of non-Italian caucasian roman slaves were still being economically and socially discriminated against in Italy, I would be all FOR a church that ministered to that flock.

I would be all FOR a church that ministered to that flock

Now what kind of babble is that ? Obama speak ??

[Kathianne]

I would be all FOR a church that ministered to that flock

Now what kind of babble is that ? Obama speak ??

he's looking to equate the Obama church with others under that umbrella. Problem is, the mission is clear and it's African centric.

[Dilloduck]

he's looking to equate the Obama church with others under that umbrella. Problem is, the mission is clear and it's African centric.

I get that part---I'm still trying to figure out what they actually do. Uplifting STILL sound more like plastic surgery to me.

[retiredman]

he's looking to equate the Obama church with others under that umbrella. Problem is, the mission is clear and it's African centric.

because their flock are african americans.

[Dilloduck]

because their flock are african americans.

Racism--pure and simple racism.

[retiredman]

Racism--pure and simple racism.


your opinion. I disagree.

[Kathianne]

because their flock are african americans.

Dang it, thought they were Americans. Wrong once again. Proof is in the puddin

[retiredman]

Dang it, thought they were Americans. Wrong once again. Proof is in the puddin


they are americans. black americans in an economically depressed community...and Trinity UCC is trying to give them a sense of pride. Why would you be so against that. It does not hurt you. They are not pledging allegiance to another country...

[Dilloduck]

your opinion. I disagree.

So how do you uplift these people of African descent ?

[Kathianne]

they are americans. black americans in an economically depressed community...and Trinity UCC is trying to give them a sense of pride. Why would you be so against that. It does not hurt you. They are not pledging allegiance to another country...

Yes they are, it may be named the same, but isn't. The fact that you ignore that speaks volumes of your own prejudice.

[retiredman]

Yes they are, it may be named the same, but isn't. The fact that you ignore that speaks volumes of your own prejudice.


which COUNTRY are they pledging allegiance to?

[Dilloduck]

So how do you uplift these people of African descent ?

Answer ?

[retiredman]

Answer ?


many ways.... one of which is to attempt to counteract more than three centuries of socialization that they ARE second class citizens here in America by trying to instill in them a sense of ethnic pride.

[Dilloduck]

many ways.... one of which is to attempt to counteract more than three centuries of socialization that they ARE second class citizens here in America by trying to instill in them a sense of ethnic pride.

What a pompous condescending racist ass.

[Dilloduck]

Answer ?

I meant a real answer---not silly ass neg rep. :poke:

[retiredman]

I meant a real answer---not silly ass neg rep. :poke:

I gave you an answer.... I neg repped your reply to it. for good reason

[Yurt]

because their flock are african americans.

thank you.

would you support a president whose flock was only white americans?

[retiredman]

thank you.

would you support a president whose flock was only white americans?


Would I support a president who attended a church in an all white neighborhood and, therefore, only white people attended? Certainly. Would I support a president who attended a church in a neighborhood where many AIDS patients lived and the ministry of that church was supportive of that population? absolutely. In the end, where a president does or does not worship ought to have little bearing on his performance as president....

separation of church and state, you know.

[Kathianne]

Would I support a president who attended a church in an all white neighborhood and, therefore, only white people attended? Certainly. Would I support a president who attended a church in a neighborhood where many AIDS patients lived and the ministry of that church was supportive of that population? absolutely. In the end, where a president does or does not worship ought to have little bearing on his performance as president....

separation of church and state, you know.

Where is the neighborhood with 'many AIDS patients? Whoops, just a feel good gotcha.

[Yurt]

they are americans. black americans in an economically depressed community...and Trinity UCC is trying to give them a sense of pride. Why would you be so against that. It does not hurt you. They are not pledging allegiance to another country...

are they americans? i don't think so:


We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent


your blind zealousness has caused you to lose sight of this issues.

how many more times do i have to post this before you address it?

[Yurt]

Would I support a president who attended a church in an all white neighborhood and, therefore, only white people attended? Certainly. Would I support a president who attended a church in a neighborhood where many AIDS patients lived and the ministry of that church was supportive of that population? absolutely. In the end, where a president does or does not worship ought to have little bearing on his performance as president....

separation of church and state, you know.

you are lying sack of waste with this post. you normally have my respect, but this post sinks you.

kkk -- that is my church. i strongly believe jesus christ wants only white people to be in power. oh yeah. only whites. why do you think blacks have been "lower" class citizens as you say? because jesus wants only whites to be in power.

now vote for me

[Dilloduck]

Would I support a president who attended a church in an all white neighborhood and, therefore, only white people attended? Certainly. Would I support a president who attended a church in a neighborhood where many AIDS patients lived and the ministry of that church was supportive of that population? absolutely. In the end, where a president does or does not worship ought to have little bearing on his performance as president....

separation of church and state, you know.

Nor should his run for presidency have anything to with his racist church. Now how are you "uplifting" these people of African descent ?

[retiredman]

you are lying sack of waste with this post. you normally have my respect, but this post sinks you.

kkk -- that is my church. i strongly believe jesus christ wants only white people to be in power. oh yeah. only whites. why do you think blacks have been "lower" class citizens as you say? because jesus wants only whites to be in power.

now vote me

Trinity UCC church tries to uplift and empower its congregants. There are many caucasian members of that church who think that empowering and uplifting black americans is a worthy goal. There are straight members of UCC churches in predominantly gay neighborhoods who think that helping AIDS sufferers is a worthy goal. Trinity does not seek to subjegate or denigrate white americans...it preaches to its flock.

and if believing that causes me to lose your respect, it was really nothing I should have ever sought in the first place.

[Dilloduck]

Trinity UCC church tries to uplift and empower its congregants.

How ?

[Yurt]

Trinity UCC church tries to uplift and empower its congregants. There are many caucasian members of that church who think that empowering and uplifting black americans is a worthy goal. There are straight members of UCC churches in predominantly gay neighborhoods who think that helping AIDS sufferers is a worthy goal. Trinity does not seek to subjegate or denigrate white americans...it preaches to its flock.

and if believing that causes me to lose your respect, it was really nothing I should have ever sought in the first place.

why do you keep ignoring this:


We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent

[Dilloduck]

why do you keep ignoring this:


We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent

Too much Scotch---and too few answers. :lol:

[Yurt]

why do you keep ignoring this:


We are a WHITE people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother WHITE continent

[retiredman]

Nor should his run for presidency have anything to with his racist church. Now how are you "uplifting" these people of African descent ?

Obama's run for the presidency has nothing to do with his church, and I disagree with your suggestion that his church is racist. As to what MY church is doing to uplift people of african descent? We are doing nothing in support of that mission... my particular church has chosen homelessness and poverty as our mission. We don't have a large african american population in need of care... we do have plenty of poor and homeless people living in the urban area of our church and we are ministering to them.

[retiredman]

why do you keep ignoring this:


We are a WHITE people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother WHITE continent


what IS the mother white continent?

Do you throw this sort of hissy fit when NYC has a big St. Patrick's Day parade and all the irishmen show that they remain true to the emerald isle?

[retiredman]

Too much Scotch---and too few answers. :lol:


actually, I give up all alcoholic beverages for Lent and have for the past decade, anyhow.

[Dilloduck]

Obama's run for the presidency has nothing to do with his church, and I disagree with your suggestion that his church is racist. As to what MY church is doing to uplift people of african descent? We are doing nothing in support of that mission... my particular church has chosen homelessness and poverty as our mission. We don't have a large african american population in need of care... we do have plenty of poor and homeless people living in the urban area of our church and we are ministering to them.


My church is fully supportive of his chuch's mission

We are doing nothing in support of that mission

:laugh2:

[retiredman]

:laugh2:

I suppose you cannot understand the connections between congregations of the United Church of Christ. MY particular church has a mission. I am sure that Trinity is quite supportive of our mission and wishes us great success in it. Similarly, while my church does not have the empowerment of black american congregants as a mission ourselves, we are fully supportive of Trinity's mission and wish them great success in it.

Does that help, or will you admit that learning anything about this issue is not really what you are here for?

[Yurt]

what IS the mother white continent?

Do you throw this sort of hissy fit when NYC has a big St. Patrick's Day parade and all the irishmen show that they remain true to the emerald isle?

you're giving up this early, not like you

then again, it must be tiring to be smacked down over and over


care to actually answer what i have repeatedly posted? just the other day you made a big STINK about people asking questions. NOW you are doing the same.

hypocrite

[Dilloduck]

I suppose you cannot understand the connections between congregations of the United Church of Christ. MY particular church has a mission. I am sure that Trinity is quite supportive of our mission and wishes us great success in it. Similarly, while my church does not have the empowerment of black american congregants as a mission ourselves, we are fully supportive of Trinity's mission and wish them great success in it.

Does that help, or will you admit that learning anything about this issue is not really what you are here for?

So your church supports a church that call Africa their motherland and is TRYING to somehow uplift them???
I learned alright. I learned you don't know racism when you see it.

[Yurt]

why do you keep ignoring this:


We are a WHITE people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother WHITE continent

let no one run from this

[Dilloduck]

let no one run from this

Shit Yurt---we can't stop him from running from your question any more than he can empower blacks.

[retiredman]

let no one run from this

why don't you make the letters bigger and, maybe a different color.

I have run from nothing...

I can't WAIT for your hissy fit on St Patty's Day.

Damned Irishmen...how DARE they celebrate their allegiance to the Emerald Isle and still call themselves Americans!

[Dilloduck]

why don't you make the letters bigger and, maybe a different color.

I have run from nothing...

I can't WAIT for your hissy fit on St Patty's Day.

Damned Irishmen...how DARE they celebrate their allegiance to the Emerald Isle and still call themselves Americans!

Apples and oranges---and yes--you ran like hell.:laugh2:

[retiredman]

Apples and oranges---and yes--you ran like hell.:laugh2:

I am still here. I have run from nothing. I answered him and he insulted me.

and you do nothing but try out your one liners for open mike night at the nerd's comedy club.


and they are not apples and oranges. African americans are not pledging allegiance to any other sovereignty. I am sure that the irishmen aren't either.

for example: is the ancient order of hibernians in america a "racist" organization

[Yurt]

why don't you make the letters bigger and, maybe a different color.

I have run from nothing...

I can't WAIT for your hissy fit on St Patty's Day.

Damned Irishmen...how DARE they celebrate their allegiance to the Emerald Isle and still call themselves Americans!

stop running coward :slap:

why do you keep ignoring this:


We are a WHITE people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother WHITE continent

[avatar4321]

many ways.... one of which is to attempt to counteract more than three centuries of socialization that they ARE second class citizens here in America by trying to instill in them a sense of ethnic pride.

How exactly trying to build ethnic pride help them see themselves as equal citizens with everyone else?

If you want the to be treated like everyone else, you need to treat them like everyone else.

[avatar4321]

This is the problem when Churches segregate. I can't figure out where they get the idea that segregation is a good idea.

[Dilloduck]

Originally Posted by manfrommaine
many ways.... one of which is to attempt to counteract more than three centuries of socialization that they ARE second class citizens here in America by trying to instill in them a sense of ethnic pride.


THEY are second class citizens? Everyone in southside Chicago is a second class citizen ? See how you just threated THEM ? Probably not.

[Dilloduck]

This is the problem when Churches segregate. I can't figure out where they get the idea that segregation is a good idea.

MFM thinks it's a great idea--his church supports them in their efforts.

[retiredman]

This is the problem when Churches segregate. I can't figure out where they get the idea that segregation is a good idea.


the church is not segregated. It is a church in a predominately black, economically depressed neighborhood. They do not exclude whites from joining their church. There are many white members AND staff members. Their mission is uplifting and nurturing the black congregants in their neighborhood. All the members of the church - black and white - are supportive of that mission.

but don't listen to me. I am just a member of the UCC...what the fuck would I know? Ask Dildo....he's working up a cute standup routine...that makes HIM the expert on the Trinity UCC.

[retiredman]

THEY are second class citizens? Everyone in southside Chicago is a second class citizen ? See how you just threated THEM ? Probably not.


they are not, but one can understand how, after three centuries of discrimination, some black americans might have grown to think so. The church tries to teach them otherwise. I would think you would applaud such a goal....

[Dilloduck]

the church is not segregated. It is a church in a predominately black, economically depressed neighborhood. They do not exclude whites from joining their church. There are many white members AND staff members. Their mission is uplifting and nurturing the black congregants in their neighborhood. All the members of the church - black and white - are supportive of that mission.

but don't listen to me. I am just a member of the UCC...what the fuck would I know? Ask Dildo....he's working up a cute standup routine...that makes HIM the expert on the Trinity UCC.

bla bla bla--no wonder you're an Obama man--try to baffle em with bullshit and feel good talk. Try answering some questions.

[retiredman]

bla bla bla--no wonder you're an Obama man--try to baffle em with bullshit and feel good talk. Try answering some questions.
I answered every question.

which one do you think I missed?

[avatar4321]

the church is not segregated. It is a church in a predominately black, economically depressed neighborhood. They do not exclude whites from joining their church. There are many white members AND staff members. Their mission is uplifting and nurturing the black congregants in their neighborhood. All the members of the church - black and white - are supportive of that mission.

but don't listen to me. I am just a member of the UCC...what the fuck would I know? Ask Dildo....he's working up a cute standup routine...that makes HIM the expert on the Trinity UCC.

Why should one congregant be nourished while the other isnt when they are both in the same impoverished conditions?

[Dilloduck]

I answered every question.

which one do you think I missed?

Originally Posted by manfrommaine
Trinity UCC church tries to uplift and empower its congregants.

How ?

There's one. Let's start easy

[avatar4321]

they are not, but one can understand how, after three centuries of discrimination, some black americans might have grown to think so. The church tries to teach them otherwise. I would think you would applaud such a goal....

again how does teaching "ethnic pride" as you call it, help teach people that they are all fellowcitizens?

[retiredman]

Originally Posted by manfrommaine
Trinity UCC church tries to uplift and empower its congregants.

How ?

There's one. Let's start easy

by giving them a sense of cultural identity and significance.

[Dilloduck]

again how does teaching "ethnic pride" as you call it, help teach people that they are all fellowcitizens?

I like how he's calls blacks "them" ---like they are all the same :laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

by giving them a sense of cultural identity and significance.

African culture and African significance ??

[retiredman]

again how does teaching "ethnic pride" as you call it, help teach people that they are all fellowcitizens?

it helps teach them that they are equal citizens. Irishmen can be proud of their Irish heritage and form clubs and associations that glorify their ancestral home, and nobody bats an eye. Trinity UCC tries to make downtrodden black americans be proud of their black heritage and their cultural connection to the african continent, and when THEY do it, every white boy on the internet is threatened. give it a break

[retiredman]

African culture and African significance ??
yep. African culture and their significance as black americans with a heritage that is greater than slave stories.

[retiredman]

I like how he's calls blacks "them" ---like they are all the same :laugh2:

that is incorrect and not very humorous.

[Dilloduck]

downtrodden black americans

:lame2: Dragging up cliche'd garbage now ? Can you go on for hours with crap like Obama does?

[avatar4321]

it helps teach them that they are equal citizens. Irishmen can be proud of their Irish heritage and form clubs and associations that glorify their ancestral home, and nobody bats an eye. Trinity UCC tries to make downtrodden black americans be proud of their black heritage and their cultural connection to the african continent, and when THEY do it, every white boy on the internet is threatened. give it a break

i dont see irishmen swearing loyalty to the motherland.

Nor do I see how knowledge of ethnicity helps one become an equal citizen. Most people, sadly, are completely ignorant of their heritage. That doesn't mean they are any less citizens than those who are.

I'm not threatened, so I don't know who you are talking about. Not everyone who questions illogical propaganda is afraid of anything. Quite the opposite. You see we actually would love to see everyone succeed.

That's the difference between you and I. You look at someone and see them as second class citizens. I look at them and see them as people. I just dont see how you can teach people to segregate themselves and expect them to view themselves as equal with everyone. It doesn't make sense.

[Dilloduck]

yep. African culture and their significance as black americans with a heritage that is greater than slave stories.

Oh please---name me some great black Africans. Idi Amin doesn't count. I'll give ya Shaka the zulu---he was pretty cool.

[retiredman]

i dont see irishmen swearing loyalty to the motherland.

Nor do I see how knowledge of ethnicity helps one become an equal citizen. Most people, sadly, are completely ignorant of their heritage. That doesn't mean they are any less citizens than those who are.

I'm not threatened, so I don't know who you are talking about. Not everyone who questions illogical propaganda is afraid of anything. Quite the opposite. You see we actually would love to see everyone succeed.

That's the difference between you and I. You look at someone and see them as second class citizens. I look at them and see them as people. I just dont see how you can teach people to segregate themselves and expect them to view themselves as equal with everyone. It doesn't make sense.

Trinity does not swear loyalty to their motherland...they try to remain true to the cultural traditions of the african continent. They want their congregants to be aware of the rich cultural heritage of their ancestral home and not have their cultural history be defined solely by forced servitude, sharecropping, lynchings, separate but equal, and the back of the bus. I applaud that mission

And please don't put words in my mouth or pretend to know how I see people.

[retiredman]

:lame2: Dragging up cliche'd garbage now ? Can you go on for hours with crap like Obama does?


here's a novel idea: put me on ignore like I am doing to you. that will spare you whatever I type as I will be - gratefully - spared from your silly snippy little one liners,

[Dilloduck]

Trinity does not swear loyalty to their motherland...they try to remain true to the cultural traditions of the african continent. They want their congregants to be aware of the rich cultural heritage of their ancestral home and not have their cultural history be defined solely by forced servitude, sharecropping, lynchings, separate but equal, and the back of the bus. I applaud that mission

And please don't put words in my mouth or pretend to know how I see people.

I always thought Chrstianity taught humility--not pride.

[avatar4321]

Trinity does not swear loyalty to their motherland...they try to remain true to the cultural traditions of the african continent. They want their congregants to be aware of the rich cultural heritage of their ancestral home and not have their cultural history be defined solely by forced servitude, sharecropping, lynchings, separate but equal, and the back of the bus. I applaud that mission

And please don't put words in my mouth or pretend to know how I see people.

The original post makes it clear that they do, in fact, remain true to their native land. I really would like to know how they say one thing on their site yet they arent really doing that.

And I don't have to put words in your mouth. You speak quite clearly on your own.

[retiredman]

The original post makes it clear that they do, in fact, remain true to their native land. I really would like to know how they say one thing on their site yet they arent really doing that.

And I don't have to put words in your mouth. You speak quite clearly on your own.

If you want to look at the phrase "remain true to their native land" as being synonymous was swearing a blood oath of allegiance over all other allegiances and loyalties.... they you can. It is clear that such an interpretation suits you and makes it easier for you to dismiss and distrust them. Go for it.

I would prefer to interpret it as not ever losing sight of the culture and heritage and pride that they are trying to imbue into their congregants.

[Dilloduck]

If you want to look at the phrase "remain true to their native land" as being synonymous was swearing a blood oath of allegiance over all other allegiances and loyalties.... they you can. It is clear that such an interpretation suits you and makes it easier for you to dismiss and distrust them. Go for it.

I would prefer to interpret it as not ever losing sight of the culture and heritage and pride that they are trying to imbue into their congregants.

right----the PRIORITY is Afican culture heritage and pride. It's clearly a message that is counter to them assimilating.

[Dilloduck]

here's a novel idea: put me on ignore like I am doing to you. that will spare you whatever I type as I will be - gratefully - spared from your silly snippy little one liners,

There's nothing novel about running away from a debate.

[Yurt]

i dont see irishmen swearing loyalty to the motherland.
Nor do I see how knowledge of ethnicity helps one become an equal citizen. Most people, sadly, are completely ignorant of their heritage. That doesn't mean they are any less citizens than those who are.

I'm not threatened, so I don't know who you are talking about. Not everyone who questions illogical propaganda is afraid of anything. Quite the opposite. You see we actually would love to see everyone succeed.

That's the difference between you and I. You look at someone and see them as second class citizens. I look at them and see them as people. I just dont see how you can teach people to segregate themselves and expect them to view themselves as equal with everyone. It doesn't make sense.

exactly, great post

[Yurt]

why do you keep ignoring this:


We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent

:dance:

their not american

[retiredman]

right----the PRIORITY is Afican culture heritage and pride. It's clearly a message that is counter to them assimilating.

assimilation is for people who just get off the boat.

[retiredman]

:dance:

their not american

Of course they are. But again... make this an issue... it just shows how incredibly desperate and devoid of vision the republicans are these days.

[Dilloduck]

Of course they are. But again... make this an issue... it just shows how incredibly desperate and devoid of vision the republicans are these days.

Obamas church and YOUR church made it an issue.

[retiredman]

Obamas church and YOUR church made it an issue.

no. that's silly. They have a mission.... most UCC church's do. None of us make "issues" about them. They are what they are.... the republicans are the ones who want to demonize Trintiy UCC... unfortunately for you all, nobody but koolaid soaked desperate republicans really gives a shit.

but DO keep making a big deal out of it...really. The smell of fear rising up from the right is palpable.

[Yurt]

Of course they are. But again... make this an issue... it just shows how incredibly desperate and devoid of vision the republicans are these days.

the very fact you are so desperate to avoid actually addressing the statement shows how serious this matter is. you so badly wish it would just go away, but it won't. your running from it will not make it disappear.

as avi said -- he has sworn loyalty to another land. how can he take the oath of office when his must be first and foremost "true to his native land"? they are an african people, NOT american. why is it you can't accept what they themselves wrote and declare?

[retiredman]

the very fact you are so desperate to avoid actually addressing the statement shows how serious this matter is. you so badly wish it would just go away, but it won't. your running from it will not make it disappear.

as avi said -- he has sworn loyalty to another land. how can he take the oath of office when his must be first and foremost "true to his native land"? they are an african people, NOT american. why is it you can't accept what they themselves wrote and declare?

post #79. The statement was addressed. Do you have anything else?

[manu1959]

as the president of the united states i look to my faith to give me strength and guide me....i am an african american, and i will remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.....

should be one hell of a corronation....

[Yurt]

If you want to look at the phrase "remain true to their native land" as being synonymous was swearing a blood oath of allegiance over all other allegiances and loyalties.... they you can. It is clear that such an interpretation suits you and makes it easier for you to dismiss and distrust them. Go for it.

I would prefer to interpret it as not ever losing sight of the culture and heritage and pride that they are trying to imbue into their congregants.

how is this an answer? this is hyperbole. if you "want" ...

[retiredman]

how is this an answer? this is hyperbole. if you "want" ...

no. I do not see the quote you post as any sort of pledge of ALLEGIANCE to any other nation. I do not think that the members of the church are more LOYAL to Africa than they are America.

But, as I said, please continue to interpret it your way... and continue to make a big deal out of it. I have answered you, not run away from anything... we have a difference of opinion. Anything else?

[Yurt]

no. I do not see the quote you post as any sort of pledge of ALLEGIANCE to any other nation. I do not think that the members of the church are more LOYAL to Africa than they are America.

But, as I said, please continue to interpret it your way... and continue to make a big deal out of it. I have answered you, not run away from anything... we have a difference of opinion. Anything else?

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.


why would you continue to ignore the reality of the statements...

[retiredman]

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.


why would you continue to ignore the reality of the statements...

you keep asking the same question over and over again. I answered it. I understand that you don't LIKE my answer. Tough shit. It is my answer. I am ignoring nothing. I interpret the "reality" of those statements differently than you. What part of that do you not understand, or better yet, why do you continue to ignore the reality of MY statements on the subject?

[Yurt]

you keep asking the same question over and over again. I answered it. I understand that you don't LIKE my answer. Tough shit. It is my answer. I am ignoring nothing. I interpret the "reality" of those statements differently than you. What part of that do you not understand, or better yet, why do you continue to ignore the reality of MY statements on the subject?

it is not open for interpretation. the statement speaks for itself. you're being delusional. if the same statements were from white people you'd be in a hissy fit.

[retiredman]

it is not open for interpretation. the statement speaks for itself. you're being delusional. if the same statements were from white people you'd be in a hissy fit.

it is not open to interpretation because the almighty Yurt hath decreed is such? it's time for you to get over yourself. you are not the final arbiter of ANYTHING as far as I am concerned.

"being true to our native land", when the native land is a continent made up of many nation states, is not suggesting that they have any higher national allegiance than the one they have to the United States. Being true to africa is about being true to their cultural roots.

and again...if those statements were from white people whose ancestors had been brought to a black nation and sold as property and had been socially and economically marginalized for centuries, I would not throw any such hissy fit whatsoever.

[Yurt]

it is not open to interpretation because the almighty Yurt hath decreed is such? it's time for you to get over yourself. you are not the final arbiter of ANYTHING as far as I am concerned.

"being true to our native land", when the native land is a continent made up of many nation states, is not suggesting that they have any higher national allegiance than the one they have to the United States. Being true to africa is about being true to their cultural roots.

and again...if those statements were from white people whose ancestors had been brought to a black nation and sold as property and had been socially and economically marginalized for centuries, I would not throw any such hissy fit whatsoever.

you just proved me right, thank you.

[retiredman]

you just proved me right, thank you.

if you say so, emperor yurt!:lame2:

[Yurt]

if you say so, emperor yurt!:lame2:

i do. everyone knows it but you.

[Dilloduck]

I interpret the "reality" of those statements differently than you.

Truer words were never spoken. :laugh2:

[retiredman]

you two should get a room.

[Dilloduck]

you two should get a room.

awesome comeback. I'd advise returning to one of your other long threads where you constantly are trying to defend something goofy and rationalizing your nonsense.

[Yurt]

you two should get a room.

:lame2:

[Pale Rider]

bringing up white slavery from the roman empire is a tad far fetched. the fact of the matter is: black people IN THIS COUNTRY were considered property not all that long ago in the sweep of human history. Black people were preemptorily lynched long after they had been freed from the bonds of slavery. Black people were disenfranchised politically in my lifetime. Black people in America have a long and bitter history of second class citizenship. Obama's church seeks to uplift them. His church has the backing and unequivocal support of the United Church of Christ - which is my denomination. But DO keep acting as if being black in America is no different than being white. DO keep making this a major issue in your attempts to denigrate a virtuous public servant. I expected nothing more...and I am sure, neither did he.

So... when a black man is all about uplifting blacks, it's all fine and dandy. But when a white man is all about uplifting whites, he's a filthy racist. It's a double standard and a travesty, and if people were truly NOT racist in any shape, way or form, they wouldn't be party to any exclusively race based, "uplifting" entities, of any type. How blacks get away with it, I don't know... how a *CHURCH* gets away with it is even a bigger mystery.

[avatar4321]

So... when a black man is all about uplifting blacks, it's all fine and dandy. But when a white man is all about uplifting whites, he's a filthy racist. It's a double standard and a travesty, and if people were truly NOT racist in any shape, way or form, they wouldn't be party to any exclusively race based, "uplifting" entities, of any type. How blacks get away with it, I don't know... how a *CHURCH* gets away with it is even a bigger mystery.

That's exactly why i asked earlier why they didnt focus on just uplifting people in general. That is what Christ wants us to do. I've never seen Christ tell us to only uplift certain races. It just seems completely contrary to the message of the Gospel. The good news of the Gospel is specifically that Christ descended below all things so we can rise above them.

[retiredman]

That's exactly why i asked earlier why they didnt focus on just uplifting people in general. That is what Christ wants us to do. I've never seen Christ tell us to only uplift certain races. It just seems completely contrary to the message of the Gospel. The good news of the Gospel is specifically that Christ descended below all things so we can rise above them.

you should consider their neighborhood...

[Dilloduck]

you should consider their neighborhood...

I thought Jews were the only race that trumped Christianity

[Yurt]

you should consider their neighborhood...

at least you admit obama favors one race over another

[GW in Ohio]

bringing up white slavery from the roman empire is a tad far fetched. the fact of the matter is: black people IN THIS COUNTRY were considered property not all that long ago in the sweep of human history. Black people were preemptorily lynched long after they had been freed from the bonds of slavery. Black people were disenfranchised politically in my lifetime. Black people in America have a long and bitter history of second class citizenship. Obama's church seeks to uplift them. His church has the backing and unequivocal support of the United Church of Christ - which is my denomination. But DO keep acting as if being black in America is no different than being white. DO keep making this a major issue in your attempts to denigrate a virtuous public servant. I expected nothing more...and I am sure, neither did he.

manfrommaine: You did a good job of responding. :clap::clap:

[Dilloduck]

manfrommaine: You did a good job of responding. :clap::clap:

oh shit another one :laugh2:

[GW in Ohio]

at least you admit obama favors one race over another

I would not expect hard-core right wingers to find anything to like about Obama.......anything.

But you guys will be among the dwindling numbers of right wingers and Repubs who bother to go out and vote in November. Considerable numbers of your right-wing brethren will choose to sit this one out because they detest one candidate and don't care much for the other one.

[Yurt]

I would not expect hard-core right wingers to find anything to like about Obama.......anything.

But you guys will be among the dwindling numbers of right wingers and Repubs who bother to go out and vote in November. Considerable numbers of your right-wing brethren will choose to sit this one out because they detest one candidate and don't care much for the other one.

so like, can ya like, actually respond to what i said or are you here to offer us only empty headed rhetoric?

[avatar4321]

you should consider their neighborhood...

Why? You said there are people from all races in the neighborhood and they wont shut out whites. Why is the white poor person in any need of less uplifting than the black poor person?

Ministers of Christ are called to uplift all men. Not just certain ones dependent on race or class.

[avatar4321]

manfrommaine: You did a good job of responding. :clap::clap:

I don't see much difference. No one alive has been enslaved. No one alive has owned slaves in this nation. This nation is one of the first in history to end slavery. And it cost the blood of millions of people to do it.

The idea that the payment they made with their blood wasn't enough deeply bothers me. But some people believe that people who had no involvement in slavery somehow owes something to people who were never slaves. It's their right. But the race baiting they use to justify this is unexecusable after so many people died to make them free.

[avatar4321]

I would not expect hard-core right wingers to find anything to like about Obama.......anything.

But you guys will be among the dwindling numbers of right wingers and Repubs who bother to go out and vote in November. Considerable numbers of your right-wing brethren will choose to sit this one out because they detest one candidate and don't care much for the other one.

He's a good speaker. Thus I've just refused your premise. That is one good thing.

But like most on the right, policy is more important than style. We are not going to agree with policies that involve taking freedom and power from people and giving it to government no matter how nice the bow looks on the package.

[retiredman]

Why? You said there are people from all races in the neighborhood and they wont shut out whites. Why is the white poor person in any need of less uplifting than the black poor person?

Ministers of Christ are called to uplift all men. Not just certain ones dependent on race or class.

I said there were people from all races in their congregation. The church is in a predominantly black neighborhood. YOu have to ask, if the mission really is exclusionary to whites as you say, why would there be ANY white members? Why would whites have to travel past other UCC churches nearer to their homes to get to Trinity?

[Immanuel]

it helps teach them that they are equal citizens. Irishmen can be proud of their Irish heritage and form clubs and associations that glorify their ancestral home, and nobody bats an eye. Trinity UCC tries to make downtrodden black americans be proud of their black heritage and their cultural connection to the african continent, and when THEY do it, every white boy on the internet is threatened. give it a break


So... when a black man is all about uplifting blacks, it's all fine and dandy. But when a white man is all about uplifting whites, he's a filthy racist. It's a double standard and a travesty, and if people were truly NOT racist in any shape, way or form, they wouldn't be party to any exclusively race based, "uplifting" entities, of any type. How blacks get away with it, I don't know... how a *CHURCH* gets away with it is even a bigger mystery.

1) What does the mission of Obama's church have to do with his candidacy? Do we dwelve into the mission of the church that John McCain is a member of? Why are we bringing this church's mission into question?

2) Just reading the mission of this chruch bothers me. I've always disliked segregation and this seems to me to be nothing more than segregation. However, I've never been to this chruch. I've never heard the pastoral staff preach. I know nothing of how this church operates or the message they preach. The perception I have based off the mission statement may be way off.

Uplifting a people is not a bad thing. Inciting them to racial conflict would be.

3) The one problem that I have is that if a white man were to run for office belonging to a church whose mission specifically stated uplifting people of aryan decent i.e. David Duke there would be hell to pay and rightly so. I would not vote for such a candidate if he espoused the mission of that church. He'd be way off base in my opinion and not worthy of even a casual thought about getting my vote.

To my knowledge, Obama has not even mentioned his church... of course, I wouldn't either. His church affiliation should never have been brought into this campaign.

To sum up, Obama's church affiliation is of little consequence in this campaign. It wouldn't come up if he were white and it should not come up now. If Obama believed in Black supremacy and espoused a revolt and racial retaliation, I'd have a problem with that but then I'm sure his rhetoric would give him away as a racist. So far, I haven't heard that from him.

I'm not going to vote for him, but that decision won't be based upon his church affiliation.

Immie

[avatar4321]

I said there were people from all races in their congregation. The church is in a predominantly black neighborhood. YOu have to ask, if the mission really is exclusionary to whites as you say, why would there be ANY white members? Why would whites have to travel past other UCC churches nearer to their homes to get to Trinity?

do you know any that do? Or do you just know of people who live in the neighborhood and go to the Church regardless?

[GW in Ohio]

and this matters........why? because a "black" person is running for president.... get over yourself.



bullshit. you have no objectivity and have lost all reason by supporting that church's ideals. why don't you go back to the motherland? if your commitment is to the motherland, why are you here?




you are the biggest hypocrite i have ever met. you shun white slavery because it happened (x) years ago, yet, you have to qualms about forever "uplifting" dark skinned people.

you ALSO again have failed to address the "motherland"

what say you to the loyalty? and don't ignore it ............ again


Lot of anger in your post, Yurt.

Also a lot of racism.

I think a lot of you white folks here are threatened by the thought of a black president. Are you afraid he's gonna take revenge for all those centuries of slavery? :dance:

The irony is all this is that you righties feel threatened by Obama, when the truth is that Obama is 180 degrees from the stereotype of black men that normally threatens you.

Obama is better educated, more intelligent, dresses better and is better looking than most of us white people. I can see you being threatened by an Al Sharpton, or a Jesse Jackson.

But Obama? He's everything us white folks aspire to be.

Loosen up your sphincter muscles, right wingers.

[retiredman]

do you know any that do? Or do you just know of people who live in the neighborhood and go to the Church regardless?

my brother goes to a UCC church in the northwestern suburbs of Chicago and relayed that information to me. There are about thirty UCC churches within a seven mile radius of Trinity...yet Trinity is the largest single UCC congregation in America. If there were whites "in the neighborhhod", they certainly have many more choices than Trinity.

UCC... those are the guys who were the Pilgrims... old white new england denomination. go figure.

[Dilloduck]

Lot of anger in your post, Yurt.

Also a lot of racism.

I think a lot of you white folks here are threatened by the thought of a black president. Are you afraid he's gonna take revenge for all those centuries of slavery? :dance:

The irony is all this is that you righties feel threatened by Obama, when the truth is that Obama is 180 degrees from the stereotype of black men that normally threatens you.

Obama is better educated, more intelligent, dresses better and is better looking than most of us white people. I can see you being threatened by an Al Sharpton, or a Jesse Jackson.

But Obama? He's everything us white folks aspire to be.

Loosen up your sphincter muscles, right wingers.

Maybe re-reading the OP might help you get a grip on what is being discussed here. No fear--No anger---just an observation that Obama's CHURCH is consumed with the black race. If a white candidate's church was that concerned about the white race he/she would be run out of town on a rail.

[retiredman]

Maybe re-reading the OP might help you get a grip on what is being discussed here. No fear--No anger---just an observation that Obama's CHURCH is consumed with the black race. If a white candidate's church was that concerned about the white race he/she would be run out of town on a rail.


lucky for all of us, none of the white candidates are in such a position. The fact of the matter is: Obama is NOT being run out of town on a rail. End of discussion. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. ::yawn::

[Yurt]

Lot of anger in your post, Yurt.

Also a lot of racism.

I think a lot of you white folks here are threatened by the thought of a black president. Are you afraid he's gonna take revenge for all those centuries of slavery? :dance:

The irony is all this is that you righties feel threatened by Obama, when the truth is that Obama is 180 degrees from the stereotype of black men that normally threatens you.

Obama is better educated, more intelligent, dresses better and is better looking than most of us white people. I can see you being threatened by an Al Sharpton, or a Jesse Jackson.

But Obama? He's everything us white folks aspire to be.

Loosen up your sphincter muscles, right wingers.

wow, and you accuse me of having anger in my post?

http://www.consciousexistence.com/family/mirror.gif

[DragonStryk72]

I don't know of any white people whose ancestors were brought to America against their will as property.

I have objectivity. I happen to belong to his denomination. My church is fully supportive of his chuch's mission. Uplifting and empowering blacks on the south side of CHicago to lift themselves up from economic empoverishment is a noble mission. The UCC is fully supportive of Trinity. SO am I.

Unfortunately, gonna have to catch you on this one. Numerous settlers in the beginnings of America were brought over here under terms of indenture, as well as to ship off criminals that they didn't want hanging around Europe anymore (somewhat the same way they used australia originally). Now, the terms of indenture, unfortunately, were never specifically clear, save for a few honest holders, and so, a person could have costs "tacked on" to their indenture, or paid out the indenture rate so slowly, that they would never make it out from under it in their lifetimes.

Now, as to the plight of black communities, I do understand there's intolerance in the world, racism is real, but things are nowhere near where they were in this country during the civil rights movement. No one even bats an eyelash at the thought that Obama is of mixed ethnicity these days, but forty years ago? Not a chance in hell he would have held public office, certainly not as a senator, and even less a viable candidate for the presidency.

the problem is that the root of the problem in our society is no longer race-related, but class-related. The inner cities are not exclusively black communities, all races are held within now. We need to stop focusing so much on the color of a person's skin (No matter how much you may not wish to admit it, promoting black kids ahead of white kids is still based on skin color), and start focusing on helping the people who need help the most, regardless of their skin.

[Dilloduck]

lucky for all of us, none of the white candidates are in such a position. The fact of the matter is: Obama is NOT being run out of town on a rail. End of discussion. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. ::yawn::

no--the fact is that a white person would be. double standard.

[retiredman]

no--the fact is that a white person would be. double standard.

a white person in a black dominated country where whites had been imported as slaves earlier in the country's history, and who belonged to a church that served a depressed white neighborhood probably wouldn't be.

[avatar4321]

a white person in a black dominated country where whites had been imported as slaves earlier in the country's history, and who belonged to a church that served a depressed white neighborhood probably wouldn't be.

Blacks are not hepless. They don't have any less rights than any other Americans. Why do you continue to treat them like they are little children incapable of doing anything for themselves because 200 years ago their ancestors may have been owned by someone?

At what point does the past become the past and people start paying attention to what's going on now?

[avatar4321]

Lot of anger in your post, Yurt.

Also a lot of racism.

I think a lot of you white folks here are threatened by the thought of a black president. Are you afraid he's gonna take revenge for all those centuries of slavery? :dance:

The irony is all this is that you righties feel threatened by Obama, when the truth is that Obama is 180 degrees from the stereotype of black men that normally threatens you.

Obama is better educated, more intelligent, dresses better and is better looking than most of us white people. I can see you being threatened by an Al Sharpton, or a Jesse Jackson.

But Obama? He's everything us white folks aspire to be.

Loosen up your sphincter muscles, right wingers.

Why do you always accuse others of racism when your side is the one treating blacks like they are children?

The very fact that Senator Obama is a serious contender demonstrates that race is not the issue it was. That a black man can succeed and overcome on his own merits. They are no better or worse than anyone else and with hard work and sacrifice can succeed like everyone else.

Hard work and sacrifice are the requirements for anyone to succeed.

[retiredman]

Blacks are not hepless. They don't have any less rights than any other Americans. Why do you continue to treat them like they are little children incapable of doing anything for themselves because 200 years ago their ancestors may have been owned by someone?

At what point does the past become the past and people start paying attention to what's going on now?

I never said they were helpless. I don't treat them in the way you infer.

And the past will get closer to actually being the past when blacks reach economic equity with whites in America....much the same way our sexist past which had disenfranchised all women until less than a century will be finally part of the past when women reach economic equity with men.

[avatar4321]

I never said they were helpless. I don't treat them in the way you infer.

And the past will get closer to actually being the past when blacks reach economic equity with whites in America....much the same way our sexist past which had disenfranchised all women until less than a century will be finally part of the past when women reach economic equity with men.

then it should have been over decades ago.

[retiredman]

then it should have been over decades ago.

ummm...I am not sure that the median income for black american families anywhere near approaches the median income for white families.

and women are not paid the same wage as men for the same jobs.

so.... by my reckoning, it has a ways to go.

[manu1959]

ummm...I am not sure that the median income for black american families anywhere near approaches the median income for white families.

and women are not paid the same wage as men for the same jobs.

so.... by my reckoning, it has a ways to go.

blacks and women should just be given more money by the govt to even it out......hey i know just tax the rich white guys ....

[Dilloduck]

blacks and women should just be given more money by the govt to even it out......hey i know just tax the rich white guys ....

MFM needs to swap homes with a black family because he's white. He would if he REALLY cared.

[retiredman]

blacks and women should just be given more money by the govt to even it out......hey i know just tax the rich white guys ....

that is stupid. we should have a society where blacks and women have equal economic opportunity.

and if rich white guys are earning more in their jobs while blacks and women toil in similar jobs for less money, they OUGHT to be taxed!

[Kathianne]

that is stupid. we should have a society where blacks and women have equal economic opportunity.

and if rich white guys are earning more in their jobs while blacks and women toil in similar jobs for less money, they OUGHT to be taxed!

Right. Women and blacks should be exempted! Power to women and Blacks!

[retiredman]

Right. Women and blacks should be exempted! Power to women and Blacks!

women and blacks should have economic equity. Or do you think it is perfectly OK that across our country a gender pay equity gap exists? Or a racial pay equity gap exists?

[Kathianne]

women and blacks should have economic equity. Or do you think it is perfectly OK that across our country a gender pay equity gap exists? Or a racial pay equity gap exists?

Please remember the qualifiers for each. Women in upper echelon's tend to take off time for kids, sometimes jettisoning their careers in favor of 'family.' There may be more at work than prejudice.

[retiredman]

Please remember the qualifiers for each. Women in upper echelon's tend to take off time for kids, sometimes jettisoning their careers in favor of 'family.' There may be more at work than prejudice.

they may be more than JUST prejudice...but there is clearly gender inequity in the workplace...at all echelons.

Just like there is equity in economic equity and opportunity for blacks in America.... to suggest that the passage of the Civil Rights Act waved a magic wand over the land and all prejudices and racial favoritism in the workplace just magically disappeared is inaccurate.

[Kathianne]

they may be more than JUST prejudice...but there is clearly gender inequity in the workplace...at all echelons.

Just like there is equity in economic equity and opportunity for blacks in America.... to suggest that the passage of the Civil Rights Act waved a magic wand over the land and all prejudices and racial favoritism in the workplace just magically disappeared is inaccurate.

Link!

[Yurt]

that is stupid. we should have a society where blacks and women have equal economic opportunity.

and if rich white guys are earning more in their jobs while blacks and women toil in similar jobs for less money, they OUGHT to be taxed!

i guess running for president and being a senator doesn't count :rolleyes:

[retiredman]

Link!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Pay_Act#Detailed_Comparisons

[retiredman]

i guess running for president and being a senator doesn't count :rolleyes:

gosh, I guess because Shaquille ONeal is seven feet tall, that must mean that ALL black folks have the ability to be seven feet tall.:lol:

[Kathianne]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Pay_Act#Detailed_Comparisons

2002? and wikki? Wow, underimpressed.

[Yurt]

gosh, I guess because Shaquille ONeal is seven feet tall, that must mean that ALL black folks have the ability to be seven feet tall.:lol:

huh? you're losing it, give up your argument now. you said "all facets". i proved you wrong because he makes the same money as other equally ranked senators. you are wrong and your desperation is showing. :)

[retiredman]

2002? and wikki? Wow, underimpressed.

so the data from bls is unimpressive?

or are you suggesting that gender pay inequity has magically disappeared in those halycon days of the booming Bush economy?

[Kathianne]

so the data from bls is unimpressive?

or are you suggesting that gender pay inequity has magically disappeared in those halycon days of the booming Bush economy?

And that is why I say you are dishonest. I'm no RSR, Glock, Martin, or any right wing person. I'm me, I've said plenty against GW economically and foreign policy wise. Try again, you are not going to smear me with this type of thing.

[retiredman]

huh? you're losing it, give up your argument now. you said "all facets". i proved you wrong because he makes the same money as other equally ranked senators. you are wrong and your desperation is showing. :)

hardly. are you suggesting that because there are some black men who make the same money for the same jobs in America, that therefore economic inequity is a myth?

[retiredman]

And that is why I say you are dishonest. I'm no RSR, Glock, Martin, or any right wing person. I'm me, I've said plenty against GW economically and foreign policy wise. Try again, you are not going to smear me with this type of thing.


what about bls data compiled in wiki is underimpressive?

and since the data on the website is from 2002, are you, underimpressed, therefore, because things have changed dramatically in the ensuing six years?

which is basically what I was asking in the sentence you bolded, btw.

[Kathianne]

what about bls data compiled in wiki is underimpressive?

and since the data on the website is from 2002, are you, underimpressed, therefore, because things have changed dramatically in the ensuing six years?

which is basically what I was asking in the sentence you bolded, btw.

Here's the thing, you are unwilling to speak to improvements, if doing so will help the other party. That's you, I'm me. Not going to help you villify the attempts over time, which like homelessness, you will give all credit to your party, if they win. On the other hand if they don't, homelessness and discrimination will remain.

That is intellectually dishonest.

[Yurt]

hardly. are you suggesting that because there are some black men who make the same money for the same jobs in America, that therefore economic inequity is a myth?

are you suggesting that there aren't white males who make less than blacks male or female? your very premise is flawed. the world is inequal, short people supposedly make less, fat people, ugly people.... are you suggesting that those people are a "protected class?"

[retiredman]

are you suggesting that there aren't white males who make less than blacks male or female? your very premise is flawed. the world is inequal, short people supposedly make less, fat people, ugly people.... are you suggesting that those people are a "protected class?"

I am suggesting that pay inequity and economic inequity exists. for women and for blacks in America. are you suggesting otherwise?

To say that one black making more or one woman making more makes that national inequity disappear is silly.

and I think it is good social policy and good economic policy to devise ways to reduce those disparities.

[Dilloduck]

I am suggesting that pay inequity and economic inequity exists. for women and for blacks in America. are you suggesting otherwise?

To say that one black making more or one woman making more makes that national inequity disappear is silly.

and I think it is good social policy and good economic policy to devise ways to reduce those disparities.

So did Marx.

[manu1959]

that is stupid. we should have a society where blacks and women have equal economic opportunity.

and if rich white guys are earning more in their jobs while blacks and women toil in similar jobs for less money, they OUGHT to be taxed!

the opportunity is equal......

everyone should be taxed....each dollar i make should be taxed at the same rate as any other dollar any one else makes.....

if i am better at it than you why should more be taken from me and less from you....

[retiredman]

the opportunity is equal......

everyone should be taxed....each dollar i make should be taxed at the same rate as any other dollar any one else makes.....

if i am better at it than you why should more be taken from me and less from you....


if you have a problem with the progressive tax schedule philosophy that has been in place since the beginning of the income tax in America, take it up with your congressman and senator.

[Dilloduck]

the opportunity is equal......

everyone should be taxed....each dollar i make should be taxed at the same rate as any other dollar any one else makes.....

if i am better at it than you why should more be taken from me and less from you....

Because you are white----sins of the fathers and all that stuff.

[manu1959]

Because you are white----sins of the fathers and all that stuff.

i am a black woman,......i have no idea where you got the idea i was a white male.....

[Dilloduck]

i am a black woman,......i have no idea where you got the idea i was a white male.....

oh --- my mistake---I owe ya. What will it take to make up for all the blacks my race killed ?

[Lee~*]

I think that they could support their native land ever so much better if they were much closer to it, like say IN IT! So, if they are all so into this idea, why don't they go back to Africa?? I'll be tthey could take up a collection to help finance the trip ... I'll kick in a few bucks!

And while we are whining about how oppressed the poor black folks are, what about what this nation did to the folks that were here first? The whole durn country was stolen from the Native Americans, and the black folks are livin in high cotton compared to how most of the Original Americans are living. Most of the reservations where we shoved these people are no better than third world nations, total abject poverty ... thanks to the good old US government.

And where does that leave this country gal? I've got a multitude of woes ... I'm of Scots/ English/ German/ Native American descent, and short, fat and female to boot ... wow, I think I'll go lock myself in a closet and cry .... Oy vey! Get a life! Wake up and smell the coffee! Get over it already ! Learn from the past ... but don't dwell on it, its over ... its like beating a dead horse! :poke::poke: :slap: :slap:

Just my 2 cents! Lee~*

[Yurt]

I am suggesting that pay inequity and economic inequity exists. for women and for blacks in America. are you suggesting otherwise?

To say that one black making more or one woman making more makes that national inequity disappear is silly.

and I think it is good social policy and good economic policy to devise ways to reduce those disparities.

so then if the same number of black people as white people make an equal amount, our we equal now?

[retiredman]

so then if the same number of black people as white people make an equal amount, our we equal now?

silly question.

Blacks make up just about 12% of the population... about 37 million as of 2000

If 10 million whites made minimum wage and 10 million blacks also did, that would hardly make us "equal" now, would it?

[Dilloduck]

silly question.

Blacks make up just about 12% of the population... about 37 million as of 2000

If 10 million whites made minimum wage and 10 million blacks also did, that would hardly make us "equal" now, would it?

They can never be "fairly" compensated. It's history that cannot be undone. From here on out your handouts and uplifts are an insult.

[Yurt]

silly question.

Blacks make up just about 12% of the population... about 37 million as of 2000

If 10 million whites made minimum wage and 10 million blacks also did, that would hardly make us "equal" now, would it?

given your answers lately, i had to make sure you knew this. hence, your talk about "equality" is nonsensical.

[retiredman]

They can never be "fairly" compensated. It's history that cannot be undone. From here on out your handouts and uplifts are an insult.

who, exactly are social programs an insult to?

[retiredman]

given your answers lately, i had to make sure you knew this. hence, your talk about "equality" is nonsensical.

Where did I say anything about equality?

I said equity. Go check out a dictionary for the difference.

[Yurt]

that is stupid. we should have a society where blacks and women have equal economic opportunity.

and if rich white guys are earning more in their jobs while blacks and women toil in similar jobs for less money, they OUGHT to be taxed!


women and blacks should have economic equity. Or do you think it is perfectly OK that across our country a gender pay equity gap exists? Or a racial pay equity gap exists?


hardly. are you suggesting that because there are some black men who make the same money for the same jobs in America, that therefore economic inequity is a myth?


Where did I say anything about equality?

I said equity. Go check out a dictionary for the difference.

you are the one who needs a dictionary. the economic equity you are talking about is directly related to the income "inequality" you claim exists. the opposite of that would be income "equality." exactly what i said, and what you are saying doesn't exist.

silly kid, big words are for grown ups.

[DragonStryk72]

gosh, I guess because Shaquille ONeal is seven feet tall, that must mean that ALL black folks have the ability to be seven feet tall.:lol:

Improper analogy, MFM. height is a simple matter of genetics, there's nothing more than that to it. For the analogy to work, you would have to be saying that, genetically, blacks and women are not on the same level.

Now, Shaq is a pro ball player, does that mean that all blacks and women have the ability to become pro ball players? Yes they do, in fact, but not all of them are going to succeed at it, or want to.

I agreed with Affirmative Action, when it was needed, back when whites would *refuse* to bunk with blacks, when they were disallowed paths in the military based on race or gender. It was necessary when white schools refused to allow black students, or when restaurants refused them service. What we're talking about now, is a small gap in pay in some areas, gaps that would disappear if the people involved would a) assert their rights, or b) stop settling for the positions that are paying them less based on gender. If they have the aptitude, and they meet the requirements, then there is more than one place that they can work.

This is not something the government needs to be involved in anymore. Now, were we to alter Affirmative Action to help those who need it, without race as a factor (say, instead, going by need), then yes, I would continue to support it, but as of now, it is only weakening the ones it seeks to help. the same can be said for this denomination. It is not Christian to help the black child who is starving, only to turn a blind eye to the white kid who is starving.

[retiredman]

Improper analogy, MFM. height is a simple matter of genetics, there's nothing more than that to it. For the analogy to work, you would have to be saying that, genetically, blacks and women are not on the same level.

Now, Shaq is a pro ball player, does that mean that all blacks and women have the ability to become pro ball players? Yes they do, in fact, but not all of them are going to succeed at it, or want to.

I agreed with Affirmative Action, when it was needed, back when whites would *refuse* to bunk with blacks, when they were disallowed paths in the military based on race or gender. It was necessary when white schools refused to allow black students, or when restaurants refused them service. What we're talking about now, is a small gap in pay in some areas, gaps that would disappear if the people involved would a) assert their rights, or b) stop settling for the positions that are paying them less based on gender. If they have the aptitude, and they meet the requirements, then there is more than one place that they can work.

This is not something the government needs to be involved in anymore. Now, were we to alter Affirmative Action to help those who need it, without race as a factor (say, instead, going by need), then yes, I would continue to support it, but as of now, it is only weakening the ones it seeks to help. the same can be said for this denomination. It is not Christian to help the black child who is starving, only to turn a blind eye to the white kid who is starving.


I have never suggested turning a blind eye to anyone's hunger.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

Income

Overview

Real median income for the nation remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 for all types of family and nonfamily households.
Race and Hispanic Origin

Real median income did not change between 2002 and 2003 for non-Hispanic white households (about $48,000), black households (about $30,000) or Asian households (about $55,500).

Households with Hispanic householders (who can be of any race) experienced a real decline in median income of 2.6 percent between 2002 and 2003.

Comparison of two-year moving averages (2001-2002 and 2002-2003) showed that the real median income for households with householders who reported American Indian and Alaska native, regardless of whether they reported any other races, increased by 4.0 percent to $35,441. There was no change for those who chose the single race of American Indian and Alaska native ($32,866).

[Dilloduck]

People have different attitudes, skills and motivations toward finances. There are hundreds of categories that you could divide our population into and you would ALWAYS find that one group makes more money than another group.

[retiredman]

There are hundreds of categories that you could divide our population into


no doubt. the link provided, however, divides them by race. and the data supports my assertion.

next?

[Dilloduck]

no doubt. the link provided, however, divides them by race. and the data supports my assertion.

next?

Your assertion is that blacks are downtrodden because their median income is lower than others? Is having a low income a direct correllary to how many opportunities have been denied ?

[retiredman]

Your assertion is that blacks are downtrodden because their median income is lower than others? Is having a low income a direct correllary to how many opportunities have been denied ?


you suggest that I have implied causation. That is inaccurate and sloppy reasoning.

[glockmail]

They can never be "fairly" compensated. It's history that cannot be undone. From here on out your handouts and uplifts are an insult.
Especially insulting to me, who's ancestry was in Europe when all this shit was going down. I should therefore be exempt from paying any costs of AA programs and welfare for blacks.

[Dilloduck]

you suggest that I have implied causation. That is inaccurate and sloppy reasoning.

Then why do blacks have a lower median income than whites?

[Yurt]

Then why do blacks have a lower median income than whites?

he meant exactly what you said. i told him a few posts above to stop using big words, i guess the same applies to complex reasoning.

[glockmail]

Then why do blacks have a lower median income than whites? When you compare married blacks to married whites, they don't.

[retiredman]

Then why do blacks have a lower median income than whites?

your statement was that blacks are downtrodden because they have lower median incomes. Not vise versa.

YOur question should be, if lower median incomes are NOT the cause, they why are blacks downtrodden?

you need to understand the difference between causation and correlation.

Let me know when you do, then formulate a question that makes sense.:laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

When you compare married blacks to married whites, they don't.

Well hell---it's a simple fix then. Make em all get married !!!:laugh2:

[glockmail]

Well hell---it's a simple fix then. Make em all get married !!!:laugh2:
The decadence of the liberal culture has caused an epidemic of unwed mothers, especially among blacks. That is the root cause of poverty.

[Yurt]

your statement was that blacks are downtrodden because they have lower median incomes. Not vise versa.

YOur question should be, if lower median incomes are NOT the cause, they why are blacks downtrodden?

you need to understand the difference between causation and correlation.

Let me know when you do, then formulate a question that makes sense.:laugh2:

dumdum, it wasn't HIS statement, it was what he presumed and ask if that is what you are saying.

i told you to stop using big words and trying to think too hard :laugh2:

oh, don't forget "context" appears you still can't grasp it

[DragonStryk72]

I have never suggested turning a blind eye to anyone's hunger.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

Income

Overview

Real median income for the nation remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 for all types of family and nonfamily households.
Race and Hispanic Origin

Real median income did not change between 2002 and 2003 for non-Hispanic white households (about $48,000), black households (about $30,000) or Asian households (about $55,500).

Households with Hispanic householders (who can be of any race) experienced a real decline in median income of 2.6 percent between 2002 and 2003.

Comparison of two-year moving averages (2001-2002 and 2002-2003) showed that the real median income for households with householders who reported American Indian and Alaska native, regardless of whether they reported any other races, increased by 4.0 percent to $35,441. There was no change for those who chose the single race of American Indian and Alaska native ($32,866).


Again, this is not proof of prejudice, or a necessity to specifically uplift one group over another. This only says that median income (the average income, or basically, fair to middling), hasn't really moved much of the past few years (though apparently whites and blacks are being discriminated against and should be given benefits until we catch up to the Asians :laugh2: ), and some of that is, yes, cultural and economic in nature. Over crowded schools, a lack of higher education, and high crime are more a factor these days than race.

[retiredman]

dumdum, it wasn't HIS statement, it was what he presumed and ask if that is what you are saying.

i told you to stop using big words and trying to think too hard :laugh2:

oh, don't forget "context" appears you still can't grasp it

his presumption was fatally flawed: blacks downtrodden because their median income is less than others. I pointed that out to him.

[Dilloduck]

his presumption was fatally flawed: blacks downtrodden because their median income is less than others. I pointed that out to him.

why is their median income less than others?

[Yurt]

his presumption was fatally flawed: blacks downtrodden because their median income is less than others. I pointed that out to him.

if only because your reasoning is fatally flawed. if you look at your posts, it is reasonable to infer you are saying such, that is why he asked you a question.

i think he has asked it again now, for the maybe the 3rd time.

[REDWHITEBLUE2]

But DO keep acting as if being black in America is no different than being white. Your right there is a big Difference Whites are not allowed to show pride in their race while blacks are allowed to discriminate against whites with their miss black America awards the black music awards OH and lets not forget February is black history month. If whites tried to have white awards they would be called Racist Thats called double standards or black Racism YOUR choice

[retiredman]

why is their median income less than others?
If you and I, as white men, start playing the game of Monopoly with real money and then, several years later, we finally let our black neighbor join the game, and you and I already own all the hotels and houses and railroads and power companies and water companies, our black neighbor is going to have a tough time competing with us. His only income is gonna be when he passes go and collects his $200, but he will have been paying us on every roll all the way around.

That is essentially what white America has done with the blacks in America. Businesses have been formed, family fortunes made, markets created, alliances forged, good old boy networks nurtured, school ties reinforced, and on and on... and black Americans were not let in on the deal. Hell, for the first century of that process they were not even people, but property. They were kept out of boardrooms and classrooms and cloakrooms and voting booths. There is a deeply ingrained, well rooted institutional bias in American industry that cannot be denied. I believe that THAT has a great deal to do with why their median incomes are less than whites. Wouldn't you agree?

[Yurt]

If you and I, as white men, start playing the game of Monopoly with real money and then, several years later, we finally let our black neighbor join the game, and you and I already own all the hotels and houses and railroads and power companies and water companies, our black neighbor is going to have a tough time competing with us. His only income is gonna be when he passes go and collects his $200, but he will have been paying us on every roll all the way around.

That is essentially what white America has done with the blacks in America. Businesses have been formed, family fortunes made, markets created, alliances forged, good old boy networks nurtured, school ties reinforced, and on and on... and black Americans were not let in on the deal. Hell, for the first century of that process they were not even people, but property. They were kept out of boardrooms and classrooms and cloakrooms and voting booths. There is a deeply ingrained, well rooted institutional bias in American industry that cannot be denied. I believe that THAT has a great deal to do with why their median incomes are less than whites. Wouldn't you agree?


this is the sorriest tripe i have ever seen. your quote/unquote analogy infers that ALL whites have access to this. :poke: it is a class issue more than a race issue. your own prejudice has blinded you.

be honest -- there was excitement in you about obama partly due to the fact of his genetics, e.g., half black. i want you to be very honest here, admit it, you have been excited about the prospect of his presidency, in part, solely because he is black.

you are prejudice.

further, you keep harping on the days of old. i think bill cosby and you would have hoot. he would kick your ass around the 'hood' and make you beg for mercy. it is only an issue because people like you continue to make it an issue.

what is the ratio of white rap artists to black rap artists?

[manu1959]

If you and I, as white men, start playing the game of Monopoly with real money and then, several years later, we finally let our black neighbor join the game, and you and I already own all the hotels and houses and railroads and power companies and water companies, our black neighbor is going to have a tough time competing with us. His only income is gonna be when he passes go and collects his $200, but he will have been paying us on every roll all the way around.

That is essentially what white America has done with the blacks in America. Businesses have been formed, family fortunes made, markets created, alliances forged, good old boy networks nurtured, school ties reinforced, and on and on... and black Americans were not let in on the deal. Hell, for the first century of that process they were not even people, but property. They were kept out of boardrooms and classrooms and cloakrooms and voting booths. There is a deeply ingrained, well rooted institutional bias in American industry that cannot be denied. I believe that THAT has a great deal to do with why their median incomes are less than whites. Wouldn't you agree?


if that is true then there should be no successful black people and no failed white people......

[Yurt]

let's not forget, this thread is about a possible future president who belongs to a church that uplifts one race over others and is true to a on "land" over another. that land is not america.

never forget this. this is not about him being black. if a white person had the same church motto, they wouldn't have made it out of the starting gate. this is about stupidity and people allowing racism to continue by perpetuating the sins of the past. yet how quickly the dems forgave the white billy or the drunken teddy.

[manu1959]

let's not forget, this thread is about a possible future president who belongs to a church that uplifts one race over others and is true to a on "land" over another. that land is not america.

never forget this. this is not about him being black. if a white person had the same church motto, they wouldn't have made it out of the starting gate. this is about stupidity and people allowing racism to continue by perpetuating the sins of the past. yet how quickly the dems forgave the white billy or the drunken teddy.

romney went up in smoke because of his religious beliefs,.....why does the preacher get a pass....

[retiredman]

if that is true then there should be no successful black people and no failed white people......
that is ridiculous. There are long established hurdles in place for black americans.... that does not mean that many cannot jump over them....likewise, there may be a mush smoother path for whites...that does not mean that some will chose to sit down beside the road and dawdle.

[manu1959]

that is ridiculous. There are long established hurdles in place for black americans.... that does not mean that many cannot jump over them....likewise, there may be a mush smoother path for whites...that does not mean that some will chose to sit down beside the road and dawdle.

well it would seem then.....that an individual with skill and drive can make it ...... and the past is not the issue the present is....

[retiredman]

let's not forget, this thread is about a possible future president who belongs to a church that uplifts one race over others and is true to a on "land" over another. that land is not america.

never forget this. this is not about him being black. if a white person had the same church motto, they wouldn't have made it out of the starting gate. this is about stupidity and people allowing racism to continue by perpetuating the sins of the past. yet how quickly the dems forgave the white billy or the drunken teddy.

I have previously addressed your point and made mine.... then you asked me to respond to dildo - again - and I did. I think we're all through here now....right?

[retiredman]

well it would seem then.....that an individual with skill and drive can make it ...... and the past is not the issue the present is....

that does not mean that the hurdles are not there moreso for blacks than whites....which, as I explained, is my opinion as to why their median income is lower.

[Yurt]

romney went up in smoke because of his religious beliefs,.....why does the preacher get a pass....

because MFM and his friends are prejudice

[Yurt]

that does not mean that the hurdles are not there moreso for blacks than whites....which, as I explained, is my opinion as to why their median income is lower.

at least you're finally claiming it is not fact

[Yurt]

this is the sorriest tripe i have ever seen. your quote/unquote analogy infers that ALL whites have access to this. :poke: it is a class issue more than a race issue. your own prejudice has blinded you.

be honest -- there was excitement in you about obama partly due to the fact of his genetics, e.g., half black. i want you to be very honest here, admit it, you have been excited about the prospect of his presidency, in part, solely because he is black.

you are prejudice.

further, you keep harping on the days of old. i think bill cosby and you would have hoot. he would kick your ass around the 'hood' and make you beg for mercy. it is only an issue because people like you continue to make it an issue.

what is the ratio of white rap artists to black rap artists?

did you purposefully miss this? cuz you posted to a post of mine AFTER this......

[manu1959]

that does not mean that the hurdles are not there moreso for blacks than whites....which, as I explained, is my opinion as to why their median income is lower.

yes i have read your opinion....i do not believe these alleged hurdles exist....i believe there is a fear of success that prevents people from succeeding.....given the quantity of special classes and programs and groups and universities and minority business programs and quotas……i think we have taught people the do not have to succeed that they will be taken care of.....we have created a spoiled and indulgent class of people that believes they have a right to health wealth and happiness when in fact all they have is the right of pursuit….

[retiredman]

did you purposefully miss this? cuz you posted to a post of mine AFTER this......

my excitement about Barack Obama has never had anything to do with his race. My excitement was planted by my now deceased father who went to the East Moline American Legion to hear Obama speak during his run for the senate against Keyes. My father was a shrewd democratic politician and he was very impressed and told me the young man had a powerful future I then read his book...and heard him speak at the DNC in 2004... then I read his second book. Again. I am supporting his candidacy because of his ideas, his eloquence, his judgment, and his charisma. I could care less what color he is. honestly.

and dildo wanted to know why I thought blacks median incomes were less. I answered him.

[retiredman]

yes i have read your opinion....i do not believe these alleged hurdles exist....i believe there is a fear of success that prevents people from succeeding.....given the quantity of special classes and programs and groups and universities and minority business programs and quotas……i think we have taught people the do not have to succeed that they will be taken care of.....we have created a spoiled and indulgent class of people that believes they have a right to health wealth and happiness when in fact all they have is the right of pursuit….

you don't think that playing the game, making the rules, building the empires, the networks the connections, the old school ties that white people have been building for more than three hundred years here have created any hurdles to success for black americans?

Let's just agree to disagree on that.

[manu1959]

you don't think that playing the game, making the rules, building the empires, the networks the connections, the old school ties that white people have been building for more than three hundred years here have created any hurdles to success for black americans?

Let's just agree to disagree on that.

i think that people go out of their way to give the benifit of the doubt to minorites of all kinds....and i think all the programs create a a hurdle of a different kind......possibly a more damaging one than the olde school lock out ..... all i know as a partner in a rather large company that is qualified to do a variety of work the fact that my skin is white and i have a penis i am precluded from doing that work......and if i was black and had a vagina i would get that work ..... experience and qualifications be damned ......

[avatar4321]

my excitement about Barack Obama has never had anything to do with his race. My excitement was planted by my now deceased father who went to the East Moline American Legion to hear Obama speak during his run for the senate against Keyes. My father was a shrewd democratic politician and he was very impressed and told me the young man had a powerful future I then read his book...and heard him speak at the DNC in 2004... then I read his second book. Again. I am supporting his candidacy because of his ideas, his eloquence, his judgment, and his charisma. I could care less what color he is. honestly.

and dildo wanted to know why I thought blacks median incomes were less. I answered him.

one of these days maybe Obama will get to ideas in his campaign.

[avatar4321]

i think that people go out of their way to give the benifit of the doubt to minorites of all kinds....and i think all the programs create a a hurdle of a different kind......possibly a more damaging one than the olde school lock out ..... all i know as a partner in a rather large company that is qualified to do a variety of work the fact that my skin is white and i have a penis i am precluded from doing that work......and if i was black and had a vagina i would get that work ..... experience and qualifications be damned ......

Our society has been coddled for too long. and we are starting to see the effects of it.

[Pale Rider]

yes i have read your opinion....i do not believe these alleged hurdles exist....i believe there is a fear of success that prevents people from succeeding.....given the quantity of special classes and programs and groups and universities and minority business programs and quotas……i think we have taught people the do not have to succeed that they will be taken care of.....we have created a spoiled and indulgent class of people that believes they have a right to health wealth and happiness when in fact all they have is the right of pursuit….


i think that people go out of their way to give the benifit of the doubt to minorites of all kinds....and i think all the programs create a a hurdle of a different kind......possibly a more damaging one than the olde school lock out ..... all i know as a partner in a rather large company that is qualified to do a variety of work the fact that my skin is white and i have a penis i am precluded from doing that work......and if i was black and had a vagina i would get that work ..... experience and qualifications be damned ......

And it's the democrats that have done all the bull work creating this sect of society. You can expect much more of it if Obama Hussein is elected President. In other words, things will get a lot worse long before they get better.

[avatar4321]

And it's the democrats that have done all the bull work creating this sect of society. You can expect much more of it if Obama Hussein is elected President. In other words, things will get a lot worse long before they get better.

I think that's going to be the case regardless who is elected.

Let's be honest here. Despite all the complaints, this nation is in fairly good condition. We are safe. We are at full employment. We are prosperous even though some people do make stupid moves and lose their money sometimes. Even the poor in this nation are among the top 5% of the richest people in the world. We have it pretty darn good!

So yeah, chances are it will get worse. There is only so long society can maintain this safety and prosperity with the faulty practices of so many people.

[DragonStryk72]

The problem is not the creation of these programs, they were good programs, and were needed in the time of their creation. In the Depression Era, Social Security was a necessity, because everyone was hurting, but it was never designed to be a permanent fixture, just to get US back up on its feet. this is again true for Affirmative Action, it was put in place in a time where the government needed to enforce the liberties of the downtrodden.

These states, however, no longer exist, and the programs have run long past their time, and so they are now creating exactly the problems they were built to prevent.

[Dilloduck]

If you and I, as white men, start playing the game of Monopoly with real money and then, several years later, we finally let our black neighbor join the game, and you and I already own all the hotels and houses and railroads and power companies and water companies, our black neighbor is going to have a tough time competing with us. His only income is gonna be when he passes go and collects his $200, but he will have been paying us on every roll all the way around.

That is essentially what white America has done with the blacks in America. Businesses have been formed, family fortunes made, markets created, alliances forged, good old boy networks nurtured, school ties reinforced, and on and on... and black Americans were not let in on the deal. Hell, for the first century of that process they were not even people, but property. They were kept out of boardrooms and classrooms and cloakrooms and voting booths. There is a deeply ingrained, well rooted institutional bias in American industry that cannot be denied. I believe that THAT has a great deal to do with why their median incomes are less than whites. Wouldn't you agree?

No. I had no more access to any fortune,alliance, school ties or networks than any black born at the same time I was. Actually blacks had the government give them more access to opportunities than I had.
I had to compete with other whited AND blacks armed with goverment programs that gave THEM more advantages than I had.

[Yurt]

its interesting that barack claims he can represent african american people better than anyone and he represents them better than he can white people.

this guy is a racist, i can't believe he gets a pass

[Dilloduck]

its interesting that barack claims he can represent african american people better than anyone and he represents them better than he can white people.

this guy is a racist, i can't believe he gets a pass

He only gets a pass from guilty whites

[retiredman]

its interesting that barack claims he can represent african american people better than anyone and he represents them better than he can white people.
:link:

[Yurt]

:link:

are you obsessively stalking me?

:laugh2:

its on his website

[retiredman]

its on his website

no. that is incorrect

[manu1959]

you two should get a room.....

[Yurt]

you two should get a room.....

jealous?

[Yurt]

no. that is incorrect

click the link for people -- he says he is best for african americans

notice under the link that anglo americans are NOT listed, yet the link is titled "people"

he is racist

[Kathianne]

no. that is incorrect

Not really:

http://africanamericans.barackobama.com/page/content/afamhome



Welcome to the online home of African Americans for Obama

“I’m here because somebody marched. I’m here because you all sacrificed for me. I stand on the shoulders of giants.”

— Barack Obama, 2007 Selma Voting Rights March Commemoration
Watch the Video

It is an exciting time for African Americans, who will play a pivotal role in this election. We want to ensure that you have what you need to share your ideas and turn your enthusiasm for Barack into action that can help lift up your families and communities.

There is no better advocate for African Americans than Barack Obama. Barack knows your story, because it is his story. ...

[retiredman]

Not really:

http://africanamericans.barackobama.com/page/content/afamhome


yes. really.

that is NOT a claim that he represents black people better than he can white people.

[Yurt]

yes. really.

that is NOT a claim that he represents black people better than he can white people.

please find us white people under the link for people. asians, natives, hispanics, but NO white people.

he is racist and he only says that he is best for blacks, no other race.

[Kathianne]

yes. really.

that is NOT a claim that he represents black people better than he can white people.

Granted, that is what Yurt wrote.

[manu1959]

Granted, that is what Yurt wrote.

granted.....i would like a link to his other racial group sections and how he will champion their cause as well.....

[Kathianne]

granted.....i would like a link to his other racial group sections and how he will champion their cause as well.....

I'm not sure about 'championing' them, but they are there. I didn't know that was supposed to be a consideration, I thought the president was supposed to represent all of us, "We the People." Now I'm well aware that many didn't, for many years...

[Yurt]

I'm not sure about 'championing' them, but they are there. I didn't know that was supposed to be a consideration, I thought the president was supposed to represent all of us, "We the People." Now I'm well aware that many didn't, for many years...


There is no better advocate for African Americans than Barack Obama. Barack knows your story, because it is his story. ...

he is saying that because his is african american. look under "first nation" and latinos, he says nothing about being the best advocate for them or that he shares a story with them.

i guess hillary is the best for white women and mccain is the best for white men using obama's clear visible racism.

[Dilloduck]

he is saying that because his is african american. look under "first nation" and latinos, he says nothing about being the best advocate for them or that he shares a story with them.

i guess hillary is the best for white women and mccain is the best for white men using obama's clear visible racism.

That'll pretty much be the split. All he's gotta do is count on those waffling hating Hillary's guts.

[Yurt]

very telling that obama doesn't list whites or males under his "people" category

[retiredman]

I think he wants to highlight how he will represent those folks who do not have a real voice in American politics. White males kinda run the joint.:lol:

[Yurt]

I think he wants to highlight how he will represent those folks who do not have a real voice in American politics. White males kinda run the joint.:lol:

so he does care about them more than white males....

[retiredman]

so he does care about them more than white males....


I didn't say that, nor imply it.

[Yurt]

I didn't say that, nor imply it.

his lack of mentioning them "speaks" volumes

imagine a white candidate that listed natives, latinos, but failed to list blacks... or said, white people, i am best able to represent you as my story is your story...

[Yurt]

his lack of mentioning them "speaks" volumes

imagine a white candidate that listed natives, latinos, but failed to list blacks... or said, white people, i am best able to represent you as my story is your story...

echooooo

[retiredman]

asked and answered in 224

[Yurt]

asked and answered in 224

ok, if that is your answer, then you have proved my point that he is racist and care more about non whites and women as allegedly white males are in power so obama has gone out of his way to address non white males and has ignored white males due to his prejudice.

if skin color were not an issue, it should not matter who is in "charge"

you think running for the president is some affirmative action bs, where whites can be ignored and minorities addressed?

[retiredman]

ok, if that is your answer, then you have proved my point that he is racist and care more about non whites and women as allegedly white males are in power so obama has gone out of his way to address non white males and has ignored white males due to his prejudice.

if skin color were not an issue, it should not matter who is in "charge"

you think running for the president is some affirmative action bs, where whites can be ignored and minorities addressed?


how does the fact that he intends to intends to insure that relatively disenfranchised Americans get a voice mean that he is "racist"?:laugh2:

[Yurt]

how does the fact that he intends to intends to insure that relatively disenfranchised Americans get a voice mean that he is "racist"?:laugh2:

because he has given no assurance that the alleged "franchised" americans have any voice...

[retiredman]

because he has given no assurance that the alleged "franchised" americans have any voice...
Why would you think he would need to give assurances to white males that they would be completely cut out of the discussion? WHo the hell would write the checks? :laugh2:

[manu1959]

Why would you think he would need to give assurances to white males that they would be completely cut out of the discussion? WHo the hell would write the checks? :laugh2:

their mail order brides........:poke:

[Yurt]

Why would you think he would need to give assurances to white males that they would be completely cut out of the discussion? WHo the hell would write the checks? :laugh2:

you're being obtuse because you know i am right

kindly answer this question, which you did not, though you allege you did:

if a white candidate did the same, and left out only blacks, do you think the response would be the same?

[retiredman]

you're being obtuse because you know i am right

kindly answer this question, which you did not, though you allege you did:

if a white candidate did the same, and left out only blacks, do you think the response would be the same?

if a white candidate, in country where whites had been property and were the minority and were economically and socially disenfranchised, did that, I think the response would be exactly the same. yes

[Yurt]

if a white candidate, in country where whites had been property and were the minority and were economically and socially disenfranchised, did that, I think the response would be exactly the same. yes

in other words, yurt is right because i must use some hypothetical country to defend my position about america.

face it, he purposefully ignored half the country and placed others above white males and imo, whites in general, but it is proven that he has ignored white males.

he is racist mfm, accept it and vote for your candidate.

[retiredman]

in other words, yurt is right because i must use some hypothetical country to defend my position about america.

face it, he purposefully ignored half the country and placed others above white males and imo, whites in general, but it is proven that he has ignored white males.

he is racist mfm, accept it and vote for your candidate.

yurt...that is your opinion. I am well aware that I will not be able to change it, just as you ought to be aware that you will not be able to convince me of the accuracy of it.... but it is, in the final analysis, only your opinion and not proven fact.

I WILL vote for the candidate of my party, be it Hillary or Barack, because I am sick of the mess that republican leadership has gotten us into, and I am fearful of what this country might become with four more years of republican rule and the two more supreme court justices such an administration would fill.

[Yurt]

yurt...that is your opinion. I am well aware that I will not be able to change it, just as you ought to be aware that you will not be able to convince me of the accuracy of it.... but it is, in the final analysis, only your opinion and not proven fact.

I WILL vote for the candidate of my party, be it Hillary or Barack, because I am sick of the mess that republican leadership has gotten us into, and I am fearful of what this country might become with four more years of republican rule and the two more supreme court justices such an administration would fill.

are you saying it is not fact that he did not mention white males under his "people" link? are you saying that it is not fact that he said he is best to represent blacks because their story is his story?

simple yes or no on the facts please.

[retiredman]

are you saying it is not fact that he did not mention white males under his "people" link? are you saying that it is not fact that he said he is best to represent blacks because their story is his story?

simple yes or no on the facts please.

the fact that he did not mention white males does not mean that he would not represent them. the fact that he can best represent black does not preclude him from also being able to represent others.

[Yurt]

the fact that he did not mention white males does not mean that he would not represent them. the fact that he can best represent black does not preclude him from also being able to represent others.

so you agree that he willfully did not mention white males and that he said he is best able to represent blacks because his story (he is black) is their story (they are black)

those are the facts folks.

[Yurt]

A reflection on this thread:

if one were to come to this board as an undecided and white american, i think it is clear that their immediate reaction would be ... wow, i am left out of obama's main concern. for all MFMs effort, he really failed to ever prove or substantiate the reasons as to why obama's church leans more towards blacks and why obama left out white males (i say whites, but he does say "women").

all mfm can say is that... well, since whitey is in charge, obama does not have to address them and because whitey is in charge, it is ok for his church to put more emphasis on blacks and the mother land.

so, what we have is that because whitey is allegedly in charge and whiteys great great parents committed some booboo, it is ok to be racist now

for those on the fence or those that think obama is the answer, carefully consider this thread and what obama is really about. MLK was not about future or present racism to wrong some past racism, he was about a place where we are not judged by the color of our skin.

obama is not listening.

[retiredman]

A reflection on this thread:

if one were to come to this board as an undecided and white american, i think it is clear that their immediate reaction would be ... wow, i am left out of obama's main concern. for all MFMs effort, he really failed to ever prove or substantiate the reasons as to why obama's church leans more towards blacks and why obama left out white males (i say whites, but he does say "women").

all mfm can say is that... well, since whitey is in charge, obama does not have to address them and because whitey is in charge, it is ok for his church to put more emphasis on blacks and the mother land.

so, what we have is that because whitey is allegedly in charge and whiteys great great parents committed some booboo, it is ok to be racist now

for those on the fence or those that think obama is the answer, carefully consider this thread and what obama is really about. MLK was not about future or present racism to wrong some past racism, he was about a place where we are not judged by the color of our skin.

obama is not listening.


you would do yourself a world of good if you took the time to actually listen to Obama a lot more!

[Yurt]

you would do yourself a world of good if you took the time to actually listen to Obama a lot more!

actions speak louder than words and so do all the facts presented in this thread. i simply cannot trust someone who waffled so badly on farakan and then capitulated only after being called on it. and then he didn't even know that rejection and denunciation are different.

i suggest you objectively go back over the finer points of this thread. to be honest, you have not swayed me one bit to his cause, i'm sure i did not sway you either as you always have an excuse for him (its just common sense). thats not enough, if i can't call the guy on his words and his website ommission of whites, what then am i to do? make it all ok because whitey is evil and in control?

i'm not buying and neither should you. whether your black or white or brown...

[manu1959]

you would do yourself a world of good if you took the time to actually listen to Obama a lot more!

i listen to him every chance i get....read his website...same with hillary

there is not one single issue i agree with him on....further.....

his pastor and friends have issues.....

sad part is he is going to get his chance to prove he is better than bush....

[Kathianne]

i listen to him every chance i get....read his website...same with hillary

there is not one single issue i agree with him on....further.....

his pastor and friends have issues.....

sad part is he is going to get his chance to prove he is better than bush....

We're on the same page, not that it's unusual.

[retiredman]

if i can't call the guy on his words and his website ommission of whites, what then am i to do?

vote for McCain... I am sure you won't be the ONLY one.

[Yurt]

vote for McCain... I am sure you won't be the ONLY one.

thats all you can you say?

[retiredman]

thats all you can you say?

no. It is all I CARE to say.

[Yurt]

no. It is all I CARE to say.

makes "common" sense according to you....