How do you negotiate

[The Reverend]

with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.

IMO you can't, the same way you can negotiate with people that protest soldiers funerals, blow abortion clinics up, destroy property in the name of the environment.

Some people cannot be reasoned with.

[Kathianne]

with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.

IMO you can't, the same way you can negotiate with people that protest soldiers funerals, blow abortion clinics up, destroy property in the name of the environment.

Some people cannot be reasoned with.Agreed and it's past time to pretend that anyone can. They should know that their actions have consequences and that I thought was the point of Bush's doctrine so long ago. It's unrecognizable under Rice.

[FSUK]

I agree, its is next to impossible to negotiate with these brutal sick terrorists. However, the root causes of terrorism need to be examined. Once this is done, then there will be no need to negotiate with these criminals.

[actsnoblemartin]

:coffee: ok. lets....

Stupid morons become imams then convince other stupid morons to commit to jihad or what the imams are to big of blanks to do :laugh2:

The simple mans guide to radical jihad


I agree, its is next to impossible to negotiate with these brutal sick terrorists. However, the root causes of terrorism need to be examined. Once this is done, then there will be no need to negotiate with these criminals.

[truthmatters]

Here is what you do.

You give them no fuel to convince the young and poor people in thier society that you need to be a target of such tactics. Many of these people are in such poverty that they will do this in exchange for a months supply of food for their family. Just like here it is not the sons and daughters of the wealthy in their society who are being groomed to do these tasks.

You dont invade the countries they populate on a pack of lies and then NEVER leave. You dont send pallets of large bills to their country so that the corporations you send to "rebuild" can be bribed with them. You dont blow up and Burn their children. You dont send their country into a hellish spiral of poverty.

What you do do is leave them the hell alone and dont do business with the people who support these idiots. That means you dont buy their oil. You go to south America and buy their oil until you can reduce the supply you need.

If these countries which harbor the idiots who convience their young and poor to kill themselves to hurt us had no money or power then they could not do much conviencing. Lets just remember that 16 of the 19 hyjackers were Saudi Arabian. They were raised and taught in a country which we do huge amounts of business with. If saudi Arabia was reduced back to the date farm it used to be before they discovered Oil then they would be incapable of harming anyone. Let China buy their oil and become their target while we invest in South America which has no muslims.

Think about it for awhile.

If you think the Muslim religion is the base of the problem then you should not want to give any muslim country a penny of our dollars let alone spend trillions of dollars Protecting Iraq from its self.

Bush already said we won this war Years ago on that aircraft carrier. An occupation can end any time you want it to without "losing" anything.

Lets end the occupation and tell the Iraqis they better get their shit together and stand on their own.

[Kathianne]

I agree, its is next to impossible to negotiate with these brutal sick terrorists. However, the root causes of terrorism need to be examined. Once this is done, then there will be no need to negotiate with these criminals.

The root cause from the Palestinian side is the existence of Israel. I don't think negotiation with that is possible?

[FSUK]

The root cause from the Palestinian side is the existence of Israel. I don't think negotiation with that is possible?


What a ridiculous statement, im sure these extremists didnt wake up one day and say '' lets hate israel''. Their land has been illegally occupied, thus this cycle of violence will never stop. Unless, the israelis pull out from all palestinian land.

I am not justifying the terrible and criminal attacks by these islamic terrorists, they should be eliminated. However, they just want their land back. Dialogue is needed, not violence.

[Kathianne]

What a ridiculous statement, im sure these extremists didnt wake up one day and say '' lets hate israel''. Their land has been illegally occupied, thus this cycle of violence will never stop. Unless, the israelis pull out from all palestinian land.

I am not justifying the terrible and criminal attacks by these islamic terrorists, they should be eliminated. However, they just want their land back. Dialogue is needed, not violence.

Again, the 'root cause' of the violence has been those unwilling to negotiate, that has not been Israel. You are delusional.

[truthmatters]

who took whos land?

[Nukeman]

who took whos land?
Tell ya what genius, why don't you do some research and tell us.

Ohh and be sure to double check to see if there were ANY Jewish people who lived in the region and had as much claim to the land as anyone else.

[FSUK]

:coffee: ok. lets....

Stupid morons become imams then convince other stupid morons to commit to jihad or what the imams are to big of blanks to do :laugh2:

The simple mans guide to radical jihad

You really need to educate your self? I am not a muslim, but again, you seem to one of those people that think sick muslims terrorists represent the whole faith of islam. The IRA in ireland, were catholics. Does that mean all catholics are holy warriors or terrorists.

[actsnoblemartin]

this is the day for stupid statements. :laugh2:

It was not nor has it ever been palestinian land, they have never owned it. Theyre not even palestinians, theyre arabs.

The brits were the last to own it, then the u.n. owned it, check your history. instead of your emotions, and your feelings.

The land belonged to israel, before it was stolen by the romans.

the u.n. offered both the pales, i mean arabs and jews a homeland, instead the pales, er arabs, and their terrrorists neigbor friends decided to commit murder against the jews, just look at how muslim women and non muslim are treated in their countries.

im sorry fsuk, and tm, but your statement are not based on realiy :poke:


who took whos land?

[actsnoblemartin]

:clap:, youre my hero nuke :salute:


Tell ya what genius, why don't you do some research and tell us.

Ohh and be sure to double check to see if there were ANY Jewish people who lived in the region and had as much claim to the land as anyone else.

[actsnoblemartin]

this is not about ireland.

please do try to stick on topic.

I never said all muslims were anything, so please dont assume or put words in my mouth, thank you very much. I am more then capable of being my own spokesman thank you

:dance:


You really need to educate your self? I am not a muslim, but again, you seem to one of those people that think sick muslims terrorists represent the whole faith of islam. The IRA in ireland, were catholics. Does that mean all catholics are holy warriors or terrorists.

[AFbombloader]

There has never been a country called Palestine, there onlyt has been a contested area in the area called such. Look back in history. the are has beed rulled by the Romand, Jewish, Turks, British.....do I need to go on. The consept of the "Palestines" has been there but ubtil recently has never been acted upon.
Personally, they have no right to the land. Israel was granted the land in 1949 by the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, which also caused the Palestinian Arab leaders to reject it and refuse to negotiate. Which in turn led to the 1948 Arab/Israeli War which the Isralei's won and therefore have all rights tot he land.

AF

[truthmatters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#The_20th_century


Please people use reality to discuss these matters.


The 20th century

Palestine in British map 1924 the map now in the National Library of ScotlandIn European usage up to World War I, "Palestine" was used informally for a region that extended in the north-south direction typically from Raphia (south-east of Gaza) to the Litani River (now in Lebanon). The western boundary was the sea, and the eastern boundary was the poorly-defined place where the Syrian desert began. In various European sources, the eastern boundary was placed anywhere from the Jordan River to slightly east of Amman. The Negev Desert was not included.[104]

Under the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916, it was envisioned that most of Palestine, when freed from Ottoman control, would become an international zone not under direct French or British colonial control. Shortly thereafter, British foreign minister Arthur Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which laid plans for a Jewish homeland to be established in Palestine eventually.

[manu1959]

who took whos land?

the UN drew a line around the land that jews and arabs were living in and called it israel..... a few days later the arabs started atacking israel ....israel has been defending itself every since .... the arabs keep attacking and loosing land .... now they are claiming foul and want the land back they lost .... israel then gives some of it back and they keep attacking them .... anyone know the fabel of the frog and the scorpion ....

[actsnoblemartin]

can you give us a link to that fabel, ive never heard of it

:salute:


the UN drew a line around the land that jews and arabs were living in and called it israel..... a few days later the arabs started atacking israel ....israel has been defending itself every since .... the arabs keep attacking and loosing land .... now they are claiming foul and want the land back they lost .... israel then gives some of it back and they keep attacking them .... anyone know the fabel of the frog and the scorpion ....

[actsnoblemartin]

and what happened, the palestinians, where offered deal or no deal

and they chose the latter, and they have lost land, because of war after war, they have started to kill all the jews, and push them into the sea

they werent talking about swimming when they said push them into the sea :laugh2:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#The_20th_century


Please people use reality to discuss these matters.


The 20th century

Palestine in British map 1924 the map now in the National Library of ScotlandIn European usage up to World War I, "Palestine" was used informally for a region that extended in the north-south direction typically from Raphia (south-east of Gaza) to the Litani River (now in Lebanon). The western boundary was the sea, and the eastern boundary was the poorly-defined place where the Syrian desert began. In various European sources, the eastern boundary was placed anywhere from the Jordan River to slightly east of Amman. The Negev Desert was not included.[104]

Under the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916, it was envisioned that most of Palestine, when freed from Ottoman control, would become an international zone not under direct French or British colonial control. Shortly thereafter, British foreign minister Arthur Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which laid plans for a Jewish homeland to be established in Palestine eventually.

[manu1959]

can you give us a link to that fabel, ive never heard of it

:salute:

your google button busted....:poke:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=frog+and+the+scorpion

[truthmatters]

If the UN told you your state would now be half Muslim land would you fight the Muslims who moved in to claim that land?

[actsnoblemartin]

you may not have a lot of threads, but let me tell you, you are an excellent poster, whom i admire

:dance:


with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.

IMO you can't, the same way you can negotiate with people that protest soldiers funerals, blow abortion clinics up, destroy property in the name of the environment.

Some people cannot be reasoned with.

[actsnoblemartin]

lazy

:lol:

I lost my staples button


your google button busted....:poke:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=frog+and+the+scorpion

[actsnoblemartin]

if the muslims, said.. were moving in 6 million muslims into israel.

#1 they cant israel is a sovereign nation.

#2 In 1947, britain handed it over to the u.n., so only at the time, could the u.n. do what you wanted to do, and actually did. It actually gave more land to the pales :laugh2:

#3 the muslims have no real claim on it, the land belonged to the jews and was stolen by the romans. Just because a few nomadic arab traders passed through it, doesnt mean they have any special rights to it.

#4 even if you give every inch of israel back to pales, they will kill every christian left there, and then go after europe, with the most sincerest respect, this is about jews being there, in 1929, the riots were about israel, they were about, how dare jews be here at all.


If the UN told you your state would now be half Muslim land would you fight the Muslims who moved in to claim that land?

[truthmatters]

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=107629&d=8&m=3&y=2008

It seems the Saudi Arabian King is odering the the SA gov to pay to rebuild the Palistinian homes destroyed by Isreal.

[truthmatters]

if the muslims, said.. were moving in 6 million muslims into israel.

#1 they cant israel is a sovereign nation.

#2 In 1947, britain handed it over to the u.n., so only at the time, could the u.n. do what you wanted to do, and actually did. It actually gave more land to the pales :laugh2:

#3 the muslims have no real claim on it, the land belonged to the jews and was stolen by the romans. Just because a few nomadic arab traders passed through it, doesnt mean they have any special rights to it.

#4 even if you give every inch of israel back to pales, they will kill every christian left there, and then go after europe, with the most sincerest respect, this is about jews being there, in 1929, the riots were about israel, they were about, how dare jews be here at all.




Under your train of thought we need to give the US back to the Indians.

[actsnoblemartin]

I almost forgot, if israel caved into to right of return requests, israel would cease to exist, because 6 million arabs, would quickly outgrow the jews in population, hence another muslim country.


If the UN told you your state would now be half Muslim land would you fight the Muslims who moved in to claim that land?

[manu1959]

If the UN told you your state would now be half Muslim land would you fight the Muslims who moved in to claim that land?

the was no state.....there was land.....it was already occupied by jews and arabs.....the un recognized the land as israel....as did prety much the rest of the world....except the arabs.....the arabs lost.....so they attacked israel...and lost again....then lost land...the arabs have been losing for 60 years.....you know what stop attacking the israelis and you will stop losing....

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont remember saying that, and leave my train alone :coffee:


Under your train of thought we need to give the US back to the Indians.

[actsnoblemartin]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

thank you manu, you can articulate words, better then i can mate :salute:


the was no state.....there was land.....it was already occupied by jews and arabs.....the un recognized the land as israel....as did prety much the rest of the world....except the arabs.....the arabs lost.....so they attacked israel...and lost again....then lost land...the arabs have been losing for 60 years.....you know what stop attacking the israelis and you will stop losing....

[Classact]

If the UN told you your state would now be half Muslim land would you fight the Muslims who moved in to claim that land?You have to put this in to context... the ME was on the losing side of the WWII teams and the spoils of war are determined by the winners...

The Israel area was to be managed by France and England following WWII... So yes, if your state had a war and you lost .... use your imagination...

[manu1959]

Under your train of thought we need to give the US back to the Indians.

and most of europe and the middle east back to the romans.....

[FSUK]

It is well known that Israel’s existence is largely due to the UN, the israelis have persisted in their refusal to adhere to dozens of UN resolutions that have been passed during the years aiming for some peace, the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homes, also calling for an Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories, and offcourse he actual establishment of permanent boundaries. However, why has Israel expanded its borders dramatically over the years??

And why did israel conduct the randcom attack on Jordan and Egypt in 1967 occupying the rest of historic Palestine, including Jerusalem. Israel also invaded Lebanon in 1982 and has continued to occupy a decent amount of Lebanese territory until today.

It just seems obvious that israel does not want peace, if it was serious about peace- it would cease its violent and oppressive policy towards the palestinians.

[truthmatters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#UN_partition

The Arabs never agreed to the partition. Just like you would have never agreed to have your state partitioned off to a mass of foriegners by the UN.

They were against the agreement from the very start and it was forced on them anyway by the UN.

You would scream bloody murder too if it was your land and the UN forcing it on you.

[OCA]

with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.

IMO you can't, the same way you can negotiate with people that protest soldiers funerals, blow abortion clinics up, destroy property in the name of the environment.

Some people cannot be reasoned with.

I have been saying this same thing for years now, hell even some local Muslims I know around here that I share music with say that you can't, they say that you are going to have to kill every man, woman and child associated with the extremists, IOW you have to remove the tree by its roots.

Oh and also you have to get into the mud pit with them, this higher road no torture crap will get us killed.

[manu1959]

It is well known that Israel’s existence is largely due to the UN, the israelis have persisted in their refusal to adhere to dozens of UN resolutions that have been passed during the years aiming for some peace, the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homes, also calling for an Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories, and offcourse he actual establishment of permanent boundaries. However, why has Israel expanded its borders dramatically over the years??

And why did israel conduct the randcom attack on Jordan and Egypt in 1967 occupying the rest of historic Palestine, including Jerusalem. Israel also invaded Lebanon in 1982 and has continued to occupy a decent amount of Lebanese territory until today.

It just seems obvious that israel does not want peace, if it was serious about peace- it would cease its violent and oppressive policy towards the palestinians.

israel expands and takes land from those that attack it.....

this low grade war has been going on since israels inception.....

it just seems obvious that the arabs do not want peaces, if they did they would cease their violent and opressive policices towards israel.....

[truthmatters]

How many Palistinians are dead and how many Isrealis?

[manu1959]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#UN_partition

The Arabs never agreed to the partition. Just like you would have never agreed to have your state partitioned off to a mass of foriegners by the UN.

They were against the agreement from the very start and it was forced on them anyway by the UN.

You would scream bloody murder too if it was your land and the UN forcing it on you.

yes we are aware of this .....this is why they have been attacking them for 60 years .... you do know they fought on the axis side in WWII and lost ..... you do remeber germany had to give back lands they lost ..... the arabs lost the war ... they picked the wrong side .....

[OCA]

The root cause from the Palestinian side is the existence of Israel. I don't think negotiation with that is possible?

No, the root cause is that they were given no choice but to pack up and leave their ancestral lands when Israel was created, all because the U.N. felt sorry for the Holocaust.

You act as if the Palestinians have no legitimate beef, surely you cannot believe that.

Modern day Israel is no better or different than South Africa was under apartheid.

[actsnoblemartin]

tm should google, grand mufti of jerusalem, and see how he cooperated with hitler to kill jews.


yes we are aware of this .....this is why they have been attacking them for 60 years .... you do know they fought on the axis side in WWII and lost ..... you do remeber germany had to give back lands they lost ..... the arabs lost the war ... they picked the wrong side .....

[OCA]

israel expands and takes land from those that attack it.....

this low grade war has been going on since israels inception.....

it just seems obvious that the arabs do not want peaces, if they did they would cease their violent and opressive policices towards israel.....

How about the land that originally comprised Israel in 1947? They weren't attacked then were they? That is the root cause of the animosity, its the WAY AND MANNER in which Israel was created. Its no different than if the U.N. said tommorrow that it were moving only Mexicans back into Arizona, forcing the people already living their to vacate their properties and move into what essentially are concentration camps. No freakin way would the people of Arizona take that lying down.

[manu1959]

No, the root cause is that they were given no choice but to pack up and leave their ancestral lands when Israel was created, all because the U.N. felt sorry for the Holocaust.

You act as if the Palestinians have no legitimate beef, surely you cannot believe that.

Modern day Israel is no better or different than South Africa was under apartheid.

there are agreeved people in every nation in the world.....their greevance does not give them the right to blow up busses, pizza parlours or kill students....and if they belive they have that right then they should expect a symetrical if not greater response....

[manu1959]

How about the land that originally comprised Israel in 1947? They weren't attacked then were they? That is the root cause of the animosity, its the WAY AND MANNER in which Israel was created. Its no different than if the U.N. said tommorrow that it were moving only Mexicans back into Arizona, forcing the people already living their to vacate their properties and move into what essentially are concentration camps. No freakin way would the people of Arizona take that lying down.

israel was attack within the first weeks of its existance by arab terrorists....

and it is different.....the arabs lost wwii.....arizona did not lose a war to mexico.....

[OCA]

the UN drew a line around the land that jews and arabs were living in and called it israel..... a few days later the arabs started atacking israel ....israel has been defending itself every since .... the arabs keep attacking and loosing land .... now they are claiming foul and want the land back they lost .... israel then gives some of it back and they keep attacking them .... anyone know the fabel of the frog and the scorpion ....

Thats false. Israel does not keep giving back the CORRECT LAND. All people displaced off of their properties should be returned there or their heirs, whomever is left. Israel enlarges the concentration camps which are the shittiest land in Israel but keep the juicy stuff for theirselves, moving settlers in if noone is there already.

Fact is, no Israel and we have peace in the M.E., keep Israel around and we wil never have peace there, ever.

And to address the spoils of war argument, we won, should we have created a new state in Japan, lets say, I mean we did win, right? Spoils of war is a bad agument for displacing people out of pity.

[Kathianne]

Thats false. Israel does not keep giving back the CORRECT LAND. All people displaced off of their properties should be returned there or their heirs, whomever is left. Israel enlarges the concentration camps which are the shittiest land in Israel but keep the juicy stuff for theirselves, moving settlers in if noone is there already.

Fact is, no Israel and we have peace in the M.E., keep Israel around and we wil never have peace there, ever.

And to address the spoils of war argument, we won, should we have created a new state in Japan, lets say, I mean we did win, right? Spoils of war is a bad agument for displacing people out of pity.

Where's the 'juicy land' in Israel?

[OCA]

israel was attack within the first weeks of its existance by arab terrorists....

and it is different.....the arabs lost wwii.....arizona did not lose a war to mexico.....

They were attacked and correctly so. actualy the U.N. should be blamed for those attacks.

Again, spoils of war is not a good enough reason for displacing indigenous peoples...........and nether is pity for a group of people.

If Jews wanted so bad to return to Israel why didn't they do it in the centuries leading up to WWII? Answer...........they didn't really want to.

[truthmatters]

The Arabs NEVER agreed with the partitioning of the land in they way it was done.

Would you sugest that Americas would just give up and say OH WELL they are the boss if the UN told you you had to share your state with Muslims coming in from abroad?

What would you expect any humans to do?

Niether side is all right or all wrong here but MANY more Palistinians are dead than Isrealis in this conflict.

The saw it as the world taking their land from them. Now every time the Isrealis push them back beyond the borders the Arabs never agreed to in the first place Isreal keeps the land they concur.

[OCA]

Where's the 'juicy land' in Israel?

I'm not sure the names of the areas or even if I could find it on a map, my friend used to date this really hardcore Jewish girl, taught at a Jewish school, i'm talking the kind that goes to Israel like twice a year, she showed me video of some beautiful areas once with high agricultural output, very green. She showed it to me because like many I was under the myth that it was 1 big rock and sand pit.

[Kathianne]

I'm not sure the names of the areas or even if I could find it on a map, my friend used to date this really hardcore Jewish girl, taught at a Jewish school, i'm talking the kind that goes to Israel like twice a year, she showed me video of some beautiful areas once with high agricultural output, very green. She showed it to me because like many I was under the myth that it was 1 big rock and sand pit.

Uh huh. How do you think they got that green?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel

[Kathianne]

and:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1025/p04s01-wome.html


from the October 25, 2005 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1025/p04s01-wome.html
Troubled season for Gaza's greenhouses
Palestinians struggle to restart a thriving settlers' business amid poor security.

By Joshua Mitnick | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

NETZER HAZANI, GAZA - Rows of irrigation hoses run across the bare sand floor of a greenhouse shell in this former Jewish settlement.

But as Hatem Awad prepares to plant the first crop of tomatoes since Israel handed these plantations over to the Palestinians last month, he is troubled by rips in the sheeting covering the metal greenhouse frame.

"If the wind blows a little bit here, [the saplings] will all fly away," says Mr. Awad, who worked in the greenhouses for Jewish settlers evacuated from here in August. "The winter is coming tomorrow and the viruses will come and kill the plants."

Hoping to save the jobs of thousands of Palestinian farm workers, international donors enlisted by former World Bank President James Wolfensohn paid Jewish settlers $14 million on the eve of the pullout from Gaza. The hope was that they would leave behind at least 800 acres of greenhouses, which grew flowers and produce, to be ready for September planting.

But that hope was jeopardized when Palestinian looters damaged many of the greenhouses, stripping them bare, for instance, of computers that the settlers used to monitor crops. Irrigation pumps were stolen, electricity networks paralyzed, and protective sheeting for the hothouses were torn.

Greenhouses covering one-fourth of the land were damaged during looting after the handover, according to Palestinian officials. The inherited farms have the potential to nearly double the output of the local agriculture industry, the largest domestic private-sector income engine in Gaza's $1 billion economy.

Now as the Palestinians try to restart a lucrative agribusiness that yielded exports to the US and Europe, the greenhouses face an uncertain future. Lax security and unreliable access to foreign markets threatens to turn profit-making ventures that grossed $75 million annually into a money pit....

[OCA]

Uh huh. How do you think they got that green?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel

Nah it was green before that. Palestinians farmed olives and dates among many other things before the U.N. moved the Jews in illegally.

[Gaffer]

It is well known that Israel’s existence is largely due to the UN, the israelis have persisted in their refusal to adhere to dozens of UN resolutions that have been passed during the years aiming for some peace, the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homes, also calling for an Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories, and offcourse he actual establishment of permanent boundaries. However, why has Israel expanded its borders dramatically over the years??

Israel was established by the un, not largely because of it. There are not dozens of resolutions against Israel, there are hundreds. The un resolutions that are passed are not aimed at peace, they are aimed at the destruction of Israel. Israel has expanded its borders as a result of the wars it has fought and to create buffer zones between the country and its enemies.

[/QUOTE]And why did israel conduct the randcom attack on Jordan and Egypt in 1967 occupying the rest of historic Palestine, including Jerusalem. Israel also invaded Lebanon in 1982 and has continued to occupy a decent amount of Lebanese territory until today.[/QUOTE]

You need to read your history. Egypt and Jordan and Syria along with others attacked Israel in 1967. The territory taken during that war was kept by Israel to prevent future attacks. You need to study real history and not propaganda.

[/QUOTE]It just seems obvious that israel does not want peace, if it was serious about peace- it would cease its violent and oppressive policy towards the palestinians.[/QUOTE]

How about the pals stop the violence and policy of genocide first. I bet Israel would be more than happy to deal with them after that. The arabs are the aggressors there, not the Israelis.

[Nukeman]

Gaffer,

He needs to just read up on the 6 day war to understand where most of us are coming from.

You know when you attack a country and "attempt" to take away their ability to travel and maintain commerce than you should probably expect a little retaliation...

[Gaffer]

Gaffer,

He needs to just read up on the 6 day war to understand where most of us are coming from.

You know when you attack a country and "attempt" to take away their ability to travel and maintain commerce than you should probably expect a little retaliation...

Yes he has a lot of reading to do. Hope he can comprehend it all as well.

When the 6 day war broke out my unit in Vietnam had to cease operations and sit tight at our base camp to be ready to go to Israel. They had planes on the runway at Chu Lai waiting for us. It was a complete sneak attack and the Israelis were really hard pressed. We waited for three days before the Israelis got the upper hand and it turned out we wouldn't be needed.

[OCA]

Gaffer,

He needs to just read up on the 6 day war to understand where most of us are coming from.

You know when you attack a country and "attempt" to take away their ability to travel and maintain commerce than you should probably expect a little retaliation...

That country exists illegally. They illegally dispersed indigenous peoples already living in Palestine and moved them into concentration camps in order to move Jews in because they felt sorry for what happened to em in WWII.

The reality was Jews were much happier in Europe and didn't really want to to go back to Palestine, they knew there would be trouble and they were right but oh noooooooo, the U.N. is always right.

[OCA]

Yes he has a lot of reading to do. Hope he can comprehend it all as well.

When the 6 day war broke out my unit in Vietnam had to cease operations and sit tight at our base camp to be ready to go to Israel. They had planes on the runway at Chu Lai waiting for us. It was a complete sneak attack and the Israelis were really hard pressed. We waited for three days before the Israelis got the upper hand and it turned out we wouldn't be needed.

And why is it that the Israelis can't stand on their own two feet? Basically they are the 51st state, we prop them up militarily, financially and only God knows with what else. If they are a people of destiny lets cut em off and see if they can make a go of it on their own.

[Kathianne]

Yes he has a lot of reading to do. Hope he can comprehend it all as well.

When the 6 day war broke out my unit in Vietnam had to cease operations and sit tight at our base camp to be ready to go to Israel. They had planes on the runway at Chu Lai waiting for us. It was a complete sneak attack and the Israelis were really hard pressed. We waited for three days before the Israelis got the upper hand and it turned out we wouldn't be needed.

Yep, back to the 7thC, 1400's, 1800's, and pre-WWI to get a start.

[The Reverend]

What you do do is leave them the hell alone and dont do business with the people who support these idiots. That means you dont buy their oil. You go to south America and buy their oil until you can reduce the supply you need.
Yeah that sure worked in the 90's


who took whos land?


No on took anybody's land. The land was the ottomans empire and then when the British defeated them it became British land.
The UN tried to create a Palestinian state at the same time that Israel was to be created but they refused. Their loss. Not to mention that Israel was attacked first.
One more thing if Israel should no longer be a state then neither should the states created by the League of Nations, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan to name some.

[Gaffer]

And why is it that the Israelis can't stand on their own two feet? Basically they are the 51st state, we prop them up militarily, financially and only God knows with what else. If they are a people of destiny lets cut em off and see if they can make a go of it on their own.

They do stand on their own. They don't get any more aid than any of the other countries in that area. And no one has ever even offered to come to their aid other than the US. They would do just fine if everyone else stayed out of their business.

And for your information no one forced the jews to go to Israel. They were going there in droves on their own. They snuck in when necessary because the British put a ban on any more immigration. So saying they were forced there doesn't hold water.

[FSUK]

Many people assume that those that criticize israel- are infact anti-israel.
This is not true, i am not anti-israel- i am simply anti-intolerance, anti-injustice, anti-massacre, anti-aggression.

[OCA]

They do stand on their own. They don't get any more aid than any of the other countries in that area.

Your kidding me right?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

[Gaffer]

Many people assume that those that criticize israel- are infact anti-israel.
This is not true, i am not anti-israel- i am simply anti-intolerance, anti-injustice, anti-massacre, anti-aggression.

and anti Semite.

[FSUK]

and anti Semite.

Usual story, why do people have to link religion with the actions of the country? Just because i disagree with the actions of the govt- does not make me an anti-semite.

So, the people that did not agree with Blair , does that make them anti-christian?.

yes, Israel is the land of the jews- however, does this give them the right to conduct state terrorism?.

[Gaffer]

Your kidding me right?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

we give them military aid so they can defend themselves from the enemies that surround them. We don't have combat troops there. Just give them equipment that allows them to defend themselves. I didn't see the article mentioning how much aid goes to egypt or saudi or UEA, or any of the other countries we prop up in the area. To say Israel gets one third of our foreign aid is false. They get aid from us mostly because most of the world will not trade with them. Israeli goods are banned in most countries. Sanctions, embargoes and un resolutions designed to destroy their country and everyone wonders why they need aid from the US. Go figure.

[FSUK]

we give them military aid so they can defend themselves from the enemies that surround them. We don't have combat troops there. Just give them equipment that allows them to defend themselves. I didn't see the article mentioning how much aid goes to egypt or saudi or UEA, or any of the other countries we prop up in the area. To say Israel gets one third of our foreign aid is false. They get aid from us mostly because most of the world will not trade with them. Israeli goods are banned in most countries. Sanctions, embargoes and un resolutions designed to destroy their country and everyone wonders why they need aid from the US. Go figure.

The aid to israel= political points in washington, thus allowing the next candidate or current leader to remain in power- and attain powerful connections.

[Kathianne]

The aid to israel= political points in washington, thus allowing the next candidate or current leader to remain in power- and attain powerful connections.

We need a conspiracy forum. :rolleyes:

[FSUK]

We need a conspiracy forum. :rolleyes:


haha- i agree.

[OCA]

we give them military aid so they can defend themselves from the enemies that surround them. We don't have combat troops there. Just give them equipment that allows them to defend themselves. I didn't see the article mentioning how much aid goes to egypt or saudi or UEA, or any of the other countries we prop up in the area. To say Israel gets one third of our foreign aid is false. They get aid from us mostly because most of the world will not trade with them. Israeli goods are banned in most countries. Sanctions, embargoes and un resolutions designed to destroy their country and everyone wonders why they need aid from the US. Go figure.

Israeli goods are banned for the same reasons South African goods were banned during apartheid, Israel is a serious violator of human rights.

There would be no enemies and no problems in the M.E. if the U.N. had not illegally displaced the Palestinian people.

And BTW lets not kid each other, the only reason we give so much aid to Israel is because of the size of the Jew voting bloc in America, thats unargueable.

[OCA]

and anti Semite.

Come on Gaffer, you're better than this.

[OCA]

We need a conspiracy forum. :rolleyes:

Kathianne you know in our corrupt American government that what FSUK said is absolutely true, its why American presidents have been reluctant to criticize Israel at any juncture..........votes.

[Kathianne]

Kathianne you know in our corrupt American government that what FSUK said is absolutely true, its why American presidents have been reluctant to criticize Israel at any juncture..........votes.

:laugh2:

[Trigg]

And BTW lets not kid each other, the only reason we give so much aid to Israel is because of the size of the Jew voting bloc in America, thats unargueable.


Yep that 2% of the population is HUGE!!:laugh2:

The reason we give aid to Israel is because they are our allies in an otherwise hostile area.

[FSUK]

Yep that 2% of the population is HUGE!!:laugh2:

The reason we give aid to Israel is because they are our allies in an otherwise hostile area.

No, it is because of the power and influence of the jewish lobbies .

[Gaffer]

Israeli goods are banned for the same reasons South African goods were banned during apartheid, Israel is a serious violator of human rights.

There would be no enemies and no problems in the M.E. if the U.N. had not illegally displaced the Palestinian people.

And BTW lets not kid each other, the only reason we give so much aid to Israel is because of the size of the Jew voting bloc in America, thats unargueable.

There is no apartheid in Israel, there is profiling though. The pals were not illegally displaced. They moved out of their on accord. They live in squalor now because of the other arab countries. Not for what Israel did. As Trigg said the Jewish voting block doesn't amount to shit in this country. You just blindly hate jews and believe all the arab propaganda that's been put out for the last 60 years. Read Reverends post about the myths of Israel, I just bumped it back to the top. It says, in a lot more detail, what I have been saying.

[Gaffer]

No, it is because of the power and influence of the jewish lobbies .

So why do you hate jews? No conspiracy theories please. Just real facts.

[FSUK]

So why do you hate jews? No conspiracy theories please. Just real facts.

When did i say that i hate jews? Thats the problem with narrow minded people such as your self. Simply because i disagree with the policies of the israeli govt- that does not mean i hate jews.

I dont like the govt and their actions, i have nothing against jews, some of my best freinds are jewish. So, please do not insult me by making such a stupid accusation. I did not agree with tony blairs policies, that doesnt mean i hate the UK, or christans or whatever faiths are in are in the UK.

[actsnoblemartin]

I know we give the egyptians 2 billion in terror and why are you calling israelies state terrorists?

:poke:


The aid to israel= political points in washington, thus allowing the next candidate or current leader to remain in power- and attain powerful connections.

[actsnoblemartin]

so the fact they are our allies, and their neighbors want to kill them has nothing to do with it?

Israel is not the only powerful lobby here.

I dont think you hate jews, i just dont know think you know what youre talking about :coffee:

and yes there is a difference between, hating and not knowing.

youre just very nieve, and someone brain washed you into this moral equivalency crap :dance:


No, it is because of the power and influence of the jewish lobbies .

[FSUK]

i am not naive, it seems impossible to debate with a group of people that are just right wing hawks/ neo cons. You are incapable of seeing the other side of the story. You guys always act the victims, and become so defensive in your arguments. All of you seem to use the same shitty old arguments in your points.

And by the way- i am not a muslim nor arab. I am just appauled at the violation of international law and humanity by the Israeli govt.

[The Reverend]

Many people assume that those that criticize israel- are infact anti-israel.
This is not true, i am not anti-israel- i am simply anti-intolerance, anti-injustice, anti-massacre, anti-aggression.

And so is Israel.

[FSUK]

And so is Israel.

offcourse:clap:

[gabosaurus]

The battle is between the hardline forces of both sides. Moderate Israelis and moderate Palestinians have made attempts to negotiate in the past. They still make attempts. The radical fringes of each side sabotage each effort.
Various Israeli leaders have made peace overtures in the past. They have never been successful. There are radical Palestinians who never forgave Arafat for attempting to make peace with Israel.
You don't negotiate with the hardliners on either sad. You have to deal with the moderates.

[OCA]

Yep that 2% of the population is HUGE!!:laugh2:

The reason we give aid to Israel is because they are our allies in an otherwise hostile area.

Steph, the Jewish lobby here in D.C. is the biggest lobby there is, they are unbelievably powerful and control huge swaths of Congress, nobody denies that. Its not the size of the population that matters but the money that Jews control in America which gives them their power.

[OCA]

There is no apartheid in Israel, there is profiling though. The pals were not illegally displaced. They moved out of their on accord. They live in squalor now because of the other arab countries. Not for what Israel did. As Trigg said the Jewish voting block doesn't amount to shit in this country. You just blindly hate jews and believe all the arab propaganda that's been put out for the last 60 years. Read Reverends post about the myths of Israel, I just bumped it back to the top. It says, in a lot more detail, what I have been saying.

So anybody who is against Israel and which sees her for what she really is is an anti-semite?

Yes, there is apartheid in Israel, yes the Palestinians were illegally displaced despite the Jewish propoganda you guys are trying to push.

[The Reverend]

Steph, the Jewish lobby here in D.C. is the biggest lobby there is, they are unbelievably powerful and control huge swaths of Congress, nobody denies that. Its not the size of the population that matters but the money that Jews control in America which gives them their power.
Why deny something that isn't even close to true.

[OCA]

So why do you hate jews? No conspiracy theories please. Just real facts.


So why do you resort to the intellectually lazy tactic of labeling everyone a hater who disagrees with the apartheid policy of Israel?

[Kathianne]

So why do you resort to the intellectually lazy tactic of labeling everyone a hater who disagrees with the apartheid policy of Israel?

How would you present your position?

[Kathianne]

So anybody who is against Israel and which sees her for what she really is is an anti-semite?

Yes, there is apartheid in Israel, yes the Palestinians were illegally displaced despite the Jewish propoganda you guys are trying to push.

Under what auspices did what you claim occur?

[OCA]

Why deny something that isn't even close to true.

You must be kidding or have no knowledge of D.C. lobbying. Go to K St. 1 day and buy a lobbyist a cup of coffee and they will fill you in if you don't believe me. Better yet, go to Park Heights, MD and stop by one of the kibbutz rooms there and see if you aren't hit up for a donation to promote Israeli friendly bills moving through Congress a few dozen times.

A little hint, anything less than 4 figures and you will be laughed at.:laugh2:

[OCA]

How would you present your position?

My position is all over this thread......get to reading.

[Kathianne]

You must be kidding or have no knowledge of D.C. lobbying. Go to K St. 1 day and buy a lobbyist a cup of coffee and they will fill you in if you don't believe me. Better yet, go to Park Heights, MD and stop by one of the kibbutz rooms there and see if you aren't hit up for a donation to promote Israeli friendly bills moving through Congress a few dozen times.

A little hint, anything less than 4 figures and you will be laughed at.:laugh2:

Same with the IRA years ago. Currently same with the Greek organizations trying to shut out Macedonia from NATO. Ooops.

[The Reverend]

So anybody who is against Israel and which sees her for what she really is is an anti-semite?

Yes, there is apartheid in Israel, yes the Palestinians were illegally displaced despite the Jewish propoganda you guys are trying to push.

No there is not apartheid in Israel, it wasn't the Israel that displaced people, it was the Muslims.

[OCA]

Under what auspices did what you claim occur?

That the U.N. created the country of Israel, offering a bogus deal to the Palestinians knowing all along that they wouldn't take it and thereby displacing people who had lived on the land for centuries and creating the M.E. situation we have today.....all because of pity for the Holocaust. The Holocaust was terrible but not worth the price we pay today.

The U.N. had no right to arbitrarily displace those people and move a few dozen Jews in there.

[Yurt]

So why do you resort to the intellectually lazy tactic of labeling everyone a hater who disagrees with the apartheid policy of Israel?

do muslims live in israel? how many jews live in muslim lands?

[The Reverend]

You must be kidding or have no knowledge of D.C. lobbying. Go to K St. 1 day and buy a lobbyist a cup of coffee and they will fill you in if you don't believe me. Better yet, go to Park Heights, MD and stop by one of the kibbutz rooms there and see if you aren't hit up for a donation to promote Israeli friendly bills moving through Congress a few dozen times.

A little hint, anything less than 4 figures and you will be laughed at.:laugh2:

Conspiracy theories are a nice way of getting away from reality.
Israel friendly bills get passed because they are are allies, that's it.

[Kathianne]

That the U.N. created the country of Israel, offering a bogus deal to the Palestinians knowing all along that they wouldn't take it and thereby displacing people who had lived on the land for centuries and creating the M.E. situation we have today.....all because of pity for the Holocaust. The Holocaust was terrible but not worth the price we pay today.

The U.N. had no right to arbitrarily displace those people and move a few dozen Jews in there.

As someone pointed out to you, you really need to get a history lesson or five.

[OCA]

No there is not apartheid in Israel, it wasn't the Israel that displaced people, it was the Muslims.

The Muslims should have never needed the opportunity to house refugees since there should never have been an Israel and therefore never have been a refugee problem.

There is apartheid, if there isn't then Israel should have no problem handing East Jerusalem back and tearing down the walls and ALL settlements.

Ohhh.....and restoring full freedom to travel wherever they want to all Palestinians.

[OCA]

As someone pointed out to you, you really need to get a history lesson or five.


Nope, i'm factually correct. You are just an appeaser, its ok in my book.

[OCA]

Conspiracy theories are a nice way of getting away from reality.
Israel friendly bills get passed because they are are allies, that's it.

Allies support EACH OTHER, when was the last time something like arms or money came to America from Israel? It doesn't because the Israeli's look at America as nothing more than an ATM.

[OCA]

do muslims live in israel? how many jews live in muslim lands?

Not sure, probably some? Currently no Muslims of Palestinian descent are allowed into Israel, they built some walls , did ya hear about it?

[The Reverend]

That the U.N. created the country of Israel, offering a bogus deal to the Palestinians knowing all along that they wouldn't take it and thereby displacing people who had lived on the land for centuries and creating the M.E. situation we have today.....all because of pity for the Holocaust. The Holocaust was terrible but not worth the price we pay today.

The U.N. had no right to arbitrarily displace those people and move a few dozen Jews in there.

The UN did not displace anyone. NO ONE was forced to leave by Israel or the UN.

Jews lived in that land as well. ALSO if Israel was ilegally created then so was Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and the other nations created by the League of Nations.

The SMALL portion of land that was given to Israel was barren and dry, they turned it into an oasis. The land that was to be Palestine was fertile but they decided that if they couldn't have it all they wanted none.

Also the UN had every right to do what they wanted. The land belonged to Britian after it defeated the Ottoman Empire.

[OCA]

Same with the IRA years ago. Currently same with the Greek organizations trying to shut out Macedonia from NATO. Ooops.


Yep! There is another brilliant move by the U.N. and the international community, I really don't care about the land they occupy but the name should have been rejected. I support all efforts to penalize them.

Private citizenry funnelled money to the IRA not the government, maybe you should read up on that too.

[Yurt]

Not sure, probably some? Currently no Muslims of Palestinian descent are allowed into Israel, they built some walls , did ya hear about it?

there are full neighborhoods of muslims there, many from gaza as well. there is really no such thing as palestinian descent, historically and holistically, in that, muslims do not think in such terms, they are simply muslims and claim all the ME as theirs.

maybe ottoman descent.

[Kathianne]

Yep! There is another brilliant move by the U.N. and the international community, I really don't care about the land they occupy but the name should have been rejected. I support all efforts to penalize them.

Private citizenry funnelled money to the IRA not the government, maybe you should read up on that too.
Macedonia should be allowed in, name held. The Greeks are being apartheid like.

[The Reverend]

The Muslims should have never needed the opportunity to house refugees since there should never have been an Israel and therefore never have been a refugee problem.



The refuee problem was caused by the Muslims not by the Jews.

Again if there never sould have been Israel there never shold have been Syria, Lebanon, or Jordan either or America for that matter.


There is apartheid, if there isn't then Israel should have no problem handing East Jerusalem back and tearing down the walls and ALL settlements.
No that is not what is needed. You are calling for seperation by doing that. Palestinians already are allowed to go to East Jerusalem, and all the settlements. Besides Jerusalem was built by the Jews. Not to mention Muslims are allowed ot be part of Israel's government.


Ohhh.....and restoring full freedom to travel wherever they want to all Palestinians.
Hmm would you restore freedom to travel to someone that constantly shoots rockets at you and that uses suicide attacks against you?

[OCA]

The UN did not displace anyone. NO ONE was forced to leave by Israel or the UN.

Jews lived in that land as well. ALSO if Israel was ilegally created then so was Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and the other nations created by the League of Nations.

The SMALL portion of land that was given to Israel was barren and dry, they turned it into an oasis. The land that was to be Palestine was fertile but they decided that if they couldn't have it all they wanted none.

Also the UN had every right to do what they wanted. The land belonged to Britian after it defeated the Ottoman Empire.

Sure, the Jews said sure Ahmed, take that beautiful piece of property there and we'll take this crap over here......Jews don't operate that way, they are much too shrewd and calculating. You've bought into the Israel does no wrong propoganda, try looking at it with an objective eye one time, might surprise you.

Strange thing though about those other countries you mentioned, none of the indigenous peoples were displaced when the nation was created.

[The Reverend]

Not sure, probably some? Currently no Muslims of Palestinian descent are allowed into Israel, they built some walls , did ya hear about it?

Not true, that is propaganda being spread by the Muslim's

[Kathianne]

Sure, the Jews said sure Ahmed, take that beautiful piece of property there and we'll take this crap over here......Jews don't operate that way, they are much too shrewd and calculating. You've bought into the Israel does no wrong propoganda, try looking at it with an objective eye one time, might surprise you.

Strange thing though about those other countries you mentioned, none of the indigenous peoples were displaced when the nation was created.

Once again, showing your dispassion and fairness. Uh huh. :rolleyes:

[OCA]

there are full neighborhoods of muslims there, many from gaza as well. there is really no such thing as palestinian descent, historically and holistically, in that, muslims do not think in such terms, they are simply muslims and claim all the ME as theirs.

maybe ottoman descent.


Not anymore Yurt, in the last twenty years they have been systematically moved out in the name of "security" to Gaza, the West Bank and other places. You are hard pressed to find any Muslim neighborhoods now in official Israeli land.

[OCA]

Once again, showing your dispassion and fairness. Uh huh. :rolleyes:

No, they aren't lol. Hey I didn't create their genetic traits, if you got a problem with it take it up with Jehovah.

[Kathianne]

No, they aren't lol. Hey I didn't create their genetic traits, if you got a problem with it take it up with Jehovah.

At this juncture, you are owned.

[OCA]

Not true, that is propaganda being spread by the Muslim's


There are no walls? And Muslims don't have to basically shit a golden ticket for an hour in Israel? Are you that brainwashed?

[OCA]

At this juncture, you are owned.

Hahaha, nice try. Either debate or find another thread. This is looking to be too deep for you.

[Yurt]

Not anymore Yurt, in the last twenty years they have been systematically moved out in the name of "security" to Gaza, the West Bank and other places. You are hard pressed to find any Muslim neighborhoods now in official Israeli land.

saw plenty in the news last year when israel and hezbully went at it. in fact, the muslims were complaining because a bomb got through and blew up in their hood, they said israel was not protecting them enough.

Israeli-Muslim population on the rise


Muslim population in Israel grows at faster rate than Jewish, expected to reach 2 million by 2025; fertility rate among Muslims dropping, still higher than in neighboring countries, Central Bureau of Statistics reveals

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3197413,00.html

[OCA]

saw plenty in the news last year when israel and hezbully went at it. in fact, the muslims were complaining because a bomb got through and blew up in their hood, they said israel was not protecting them enough.

Israeli-Muslim population on the rise


Muslim population in Israel grows at faster rate than Jewish, expected to reach 2 million by 2025; fertility rate among Muslims dropping, still higher than in neighboring countries, Central Bureau of Statistics reveals

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3197413,00.html

Sure they got hoods.............Palestinian Authority controlled territory, not official Israeli territory. I think you might be referring to the Golan Heights or something close by, I think that is up there close to the Lebanese border but I could be wrong.

[The Reverend]

Not anymore Yurt, in the last twenty years they have been systematically moved out in the name of "security" to Gaza, the West Bank and other places. You are hard pressed to find any Muslim neighborhoods now in official Israeli land.
Really, you got any facts to back this up? Links? something ANYTHING

There are no walls? And Muslims don't have to basically shit a golden ticket for an hour in Israel? Are you that brainwashed?

There are some walls. They are not completely finished yet.

Muslims are allowed ot go to Israel, Hell they are allowed to becomse citizens.

Now if Israel lets a Palestinian become a citizen why won't most Arab nations? Hmmm.

Also you can blame the shape of Gaza on Arafat


The PA rule of the Gaza Strip and West Bank under leadership of Arafat suffered from serious mismanagement and corruption. Exorbitant bribes were demanded for allowing goods to pass in and out of the Gaza Strip, while heads of the Preventive Security Service apparatus profited from their involvement in the gravel import and cement and construction industries, like the Great Arab Company for Investment and Development, the al-Motawaset Company and the al-Sheik Zayid construction project. [11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

[OCA]

Really, you got any facts to back this up? Links? something ANYTHING




Holy crap! This comes from a Jewish publication.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909613.html

[Kathianne]

Holy crap! This comes from a Jewish publication.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909613.html

Right, but awhile ago, 06/10/2007 what's happened since?

[The Reverend]

Couldn't find anything more current

06/10/2007

That was six months ago

Besides that only applies to those coming from Gaza, the same place the rockets and suicide bomber come from.
During WAR you do not just let people come nilly wily into your country.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/31/world/middleeast/31mideast.html

This is off topic but interesting.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jun/18/israel.comment

Not to mentiont that just says they are not letting them in, not that they are kicking them out over the last twenty years like you claimed. That was what the proof I asked for was for

[DragonStryk72]

with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.

IMO you can't, the same way you can negotiate with people that protest soldiers funerals, blow abortion clinics up, destroy property in the name of the environment.

Some people cannot be reasoned with.

"Talk softly, and carry a big stick"

Honestly, you can't negotiate with those kinds of people. Negotiation requires reason, something that a person who would specifically order the deaths of innocent people just to prove a point, quite obviously lack.

Fighting is terrible, war is terrible, but if you must fight, if you must war, then fight & war to win, in the most effective manner possible.

[OCA]

Right, but awhile ago, 06/10/2007 what's happened since?

Nothing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg8jg3bWvCI


http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3409075,00.html

[OCA]

Couldn't find anything more current

06/10/2007

That was six months ago

Besides that only applies to those coming from Gaza, the same place the rockets and suicide bomber come from.
During WAR you do not just let people come nilly wily into your country.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/31/world/middleeast/31mideast.html

This is off topic but interesting.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jun/18/israel.comment

Not to mentiont that just says they are not letting them in, not that they are kicking them out over the last twenty years like you claimed. That was what the proof I asked for was for

They are punishing law abiding Palestinians for the actions of a few.

Apartheid.....Israel by creating the concentration camps has created a permanent group of second class citizens who do not possess all the rights of other Israeli's which by definition and action is exactly what took place in South Africa and ironically........Nazi Germany.

[Kathianne]

Nothing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg8jg3bWvCI


http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3409075,00.html

So now the poor Palestinians are like the illegals in our country? I have to say, you are consistent.

[OCA]

So now the poor Palestinians are like the illegals in our country? I have to say, you are consistent.

Kath, you want to debate or engage in frivolities? I must say your behavior in this thread has been....lets say..........less than whats required to make the grade.

[Kathianne]

Kath, you want to debate or engage in frivolities? I must say your behavior in this thread has been....lets say..........less than whats required to make the grade.

What's there to debate with? All you have put forward are 'poor Palestinians' stories. While I feel sorry for those that are innocent, they seem to be few and far between, whether voting in terrorists, strapping explosives on babies, hiding rockets in residential areas.

Funny thing is, Amnesty International recognizes that Israel is no longer occupying Gaza, yet now calls it a 'blockade' and says that Israel should care for all 'basic necessities' of the poor Palis. Sort of like you are told to feed and care for the guy across the street that you know wants to kill you and your family.

[OCA]

What's there to debate with? All you have put forward are 'poor Palestinians' stories. While I feel sorry for those that are innocent, they seem to be few and far between, whether voting in terrorists, strapping explosives on babies, hiding rockets in residential areas.

Funny thing is, Amnesty International recognizes that Israel is no longer occupying Gaza, yet now calls it a 'blockade' and says that Israel should care for all 'basic necessities' of the poor Palis. Sort of like you are told to feed and care for the guy across the street that you know wants to kill you and your family.


They occupied their territory ilegally in the first place, they expelled them and herded them into designated areas, they restrict the flow of neccessities in and out of those areas...........yes, they are responsible for them, not because the Palestinians wanted it that way but rather the Israeli's themselves have fixed it that way.

Few and far between? Go to my new thread in "international politics" and see how I debunked your few and far between melarkey.

The bitter truth is is that the root problem in all of the M.E. is the continued illegal existence and practices of Israel. Now i'm not calling for the elimination of Israel per say but if there were ni Israel there would be no probs in M.E.. If you support Israel you support the further continuation of problems in the M.E.

[truthmatters]

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/03/08/see-and-hear-about-the-horrors-in-gaza-on-video-interview-with-mohammed-omer/

You can NEVER know the real story unless you listen to all sides.

[Kathianne]

They occupied their territory ilegally in the first place, they expelled them and herded them into designated areas, they restrict the flow of neccessities in and out of those areas...........yes, they are responsible for them, not because the Palestinians wanted it that way but rather the Israeli's themselves have fixed it that way.

Few and far between? Go to my new thread in "international politics" and see how I debunked your few and far between melarkey.

The bitter truth is is that the root problem in all of the M.E. is the continued illegal existence and practices of Israel. Now i'm not calling for the elimination of Israel per say but if there were ni Israel there would be no probs in M.E.. If you support Israel you support the further continuation of problems in the M.E.

What Tutu wrote was his opinion, not fact. Facts are that Israel exists and will continue to exist. That will piss off the poor Palis who could decide to have a state and be responsible for themselves, it's not going to happen.

[OCA]

What Tutu wrote was his opinion, not fact. Facts are that Israel exists and will continue to exist. That will piss off the poor Palis who could decide to have a state and be responsible for themselves, it's not going to happen.

Why should they accept a state that does not comprise fully the lands that were taken from them illegally in 1947? If Mexico were given part of Arizona and New Mexico by the U.N. and there were conflict, would you accept anything other than the return of the full territory that comprised Arizona and New Mexico? I think not.

[Kathianne]

Why should they accept a state that does not comprise fully the lands that were taken from them illegally in 1947? If Mexico were given part of Arizona and New Mexico by the U.N. and there were conflict, would you accept anything other than the return of the full territory that comprised Arizona and New Mexico? I think not.

It was 'land' not 'their land'. It was 'British controlled.' They gave it up, the UN tried to divide it, the Trans-Jordans attacked and were removed.

[Yurt]

Why should they accept a state that does not comprise fully the lands that were taken from them illegally in 1947? If Mexico were given part of Arizona and New Mexico by the U.N. and there were conflict, would you accept anything other than the return of the full territory that comprised Arizona and New Mexico? I think not.

isn't it true that the land was actually under the control of the ottoman empire, then went to the brits. as far as private ownership, jews have been lawfully purchasing vast amounts of land in the area since the mid 1800s. as far as governments, the ottoman empire no longer exists and when it did, that area was not autonomous.

do you side with muslims waging war and conquering that territory around 700 AD?

[OCA]

isn't it true that the land was actually under the control of the ottoman empire, then went to the brits. as far as private ownership, jews have been lawfully purchasing vast amounts of land in the area since the mid 1800s. as far as governments, the ottoman empire no longer exists and when it did, that area was not autonomous.

do you side with muslims waging war and conquering that territory around 700 AD?

Doesn't matter who controlled the territory at what time. The Occupying power should give first preference in reference to land to the indigenous peoples, much like what America should have done with the Iindians.

Palestinians had been in the area since biblical times, long after Jews had abandoned it.

[FSUK]

Below is an Early Day Motion, which has been signed by 77 British MP's from a a broad spectrum of the political arena and faiths.

"That this House notes that the Israeli government has expressed the desire to upgrade its relations with the EU to the same level as Norway and Switzerland; further notes that this would include the ability to have free passage of goods, people and capital between the two entities; further notes that Israel remains in consistent violation of UN Security Council Resolutions and the Fourth Geneva Convention, has routinely prevented the free movement of Palestinian goods and people and has withheld Palestinian funds from their people; further notes that these and other grievous human rights abuses represent a clear breach of Article Two of the EU-Israel Association Agreement, which calls for adherence to human rights laws; commends the International Development Select Committee's report into development assistance and the Occupied Palestinian territories, and in particular its recommendation that `the UK should urge the EU to use the Association Agreement with Israel as a lever for change and to consider suspending the Agreement until there are further improvements in access arrangements'; and urges the Government to insist that no upgrading of Israel's relations with the EU be considered until the Israeli government has brought itself into full compliance with international law, including the permanent lifting of all barriers to freedom of movement for Palestinian goods, people and capital."

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=32632&SESSION=885

You see, my disagreement with the israels actions, are not some sort of unfounded propaganda.

[Kathianne]

Below is an Early Day Motion, which has been signed by 77 British MP's from a a broad spectrum of the political arena and faiths.

"That this House notes that the Israeli government has expressed the desire to upgrade its relations with the EU to the same level as Norway and Switzerland; further notes that this would include the ability to have free passage of goods, people and capital between the two entities; further notes that Israel remains in consistent violation of UN Security Council Resolutions and the Fourth Geneva Convention, has routinely prevented the free movement of Palestinian goods and people and has withheld Palestinian funds from their people; further notes that these and other grievous human rights abuses represent a clear breach of Article Two of the EU-Israel Association Agreement, which calls for adherence to human rights laws; commends the International Development Select Committee's report into development assistance and the Occupied Palestinian territories, and in particular its recommendation that `the UK should urge the EU to use the Association Agreement with Israel as a lever for change and to consider suspending the Agreement until there are further improvements in access arrangements'; and urges the Government to insist that no upgrading of Israel's relations with the EU be considered until the Israeli government has brought itself into full compliance with international law, including the permanent lifting of all barriers to freedom of movement for Palestinian goods, people and capital."

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=32632&SESSION=885

You see, my disagreement with the israels actions, are not some sort of unfounded propaganda.

What else is new? If your argument is that Europe backs any and all requests of the Palestinians, funds them, and has a long history of anti-semitism, I'll not argue that.

[OCA]

It was 'land' not 'their land'. It was 'British controlled.' They gave it up, the UN tried to divide it, the Trans-Jordans attacked and were removed.

No, it wasn't their land, they'd only been there for 1500 or so years.

It wasn't the U.N.'s to divide.

[Kathianne]

No, it wasn't their land, they'd only been there for 1500 or so years.

It wasn't the U.N.'s to divide.

Sure it was, the British turned it over. If you give me your land, it's mine to do what I like with.

[OCA]

Sure it was, the British turned it over. If you give me your land, it's mine to do what I like with.

The British turned it over to the U.N.? Since when has the U.N. been a holder of territory?

The U.N. and its member nations ILLEGALLY, without authority ceded territory to Jews out of pity for the Holocaust at the expense of the Palestinians.

End of story.

[Kathianne]

The British turned it over to the U.N.? Since when has the U.N. been a holder of territory?

The U.N. and its member nations ILLEGALLY, without authority ceded territory to Jews out of pity for the Holocaust at the expense of the Palestinians.

End of story.

The world according to OCA. Thanks for the 'debate.'

[Yurt]

Doesn't matter who controlled the territory at what time. The Occupying power should give first preference in reference to land to the indigenous peoples, much like what America should have done with the Iindians.

Palestinians had been in the area since biblical times, long after Jews had abandoned it.

there is no such thing as palestinians. jews abandoned it? you mean forced exile and extermination. the crusades, the muslims, rome....

why do you feel the muslims or non jews (palestinians did not even exist until yasser arafat coined it) have superior claim? weren't jews living there after the war as well?

[OCA]

The world according to OCA. Thanks for the 'debate.'

Your welcome, not sure when you actually participated in the debate beside some one line quips though.

[OCA]

there is no such thing as palestinians. jews abandoned it? you mean forced exile and extermination. the crusades, the muslims, rome....

why do you feel the muslims or non jews (palestinians did not even exist until yasser arafat coined it) have superior claim? weren't jews living there after the war as well?

Most Palestinians can trace their lineage on that land going back many generations, very few Jews can trace it back any farther past when their grandparents emigrated from Europe.

So its ok to force the Palestinians into exile but not the Jews? If not give back the land stolen by the U.N. in 1947.

[The Reverend]

They are punishing law abiding Palestinians for the actions of a few.

Apartheid.....Israel by creating the concentration camps has created a permanent group of second class citizens who do not possess all the rights of other Israeli's which by definition and action is exactly what took place in South Africa and ironically........Nazi Germany.

Let me ask you some questions.

Should people from Mexico and Canada be allowed to come in unchecked anytime they want to America, OR are you for securing the borders?

Also say terrorists were lobbing rockets into America from Mexico or Canada, do you think that WE would just let anybody come through our borders?

[The Reverend]

Most Palestinians can trace their lineage on that land going back many generations, very few Jews can trace it back any farther past when their grandparents emigrated from Europe.

So its ok to force the Palestinians into exile but not the Jews? If not give back the land stolen by the U.N. in 1947.

1) The history of Jews in Israel can be traced back to before Biblical times. Remember they are the ones that built Jerusalem.

2) The land was not stolen nor was it the Palestinians. It was the Ottoman Empires and when Britian defeated them it became Britians.

[OCA]

Let me ask you some questions.

Should people from Mexico and Canada be allowed to come in unchecked anytime they want to America, OR are you for securing the borders?

Also say terrorists were lobbing rockets into America from Mexico or Canada, do you think that WE would just let anybody come through our borders?

Bad analogy.

Mexico and Canada are seperate countries, what you have with Israel is a country created out of pity, a country created on top of existing peoples. Yes, Palestinians should be allowed to move freely through their own land, the land illegally known as Israel.

[OCA]

1) The history of Jews in Israel can be traced back to before Biblical times. Remember they are the ones that built Jerusalem.

2) The land was not stolen nor was it the Palestinians. It was the Ottoman Empires and when Britian defeated them it became Britians.

1. They left, the Palestinians remained, the Jews showed little or no interest in it until Adolph.

2. Doesn't matter who it belonged to, what does matter is when it was being decided whom to give it to the Palestinians should've been given a fair opportunity........they weren't.

[The Reverend]

Bad analogy.

Mexico and Canada are seperate countries, what you have with Israel is a country created out of pity, a country created on top of existing peoples. Yes, Palestinians should be allowed to move freely through their own land, the land illegally known as Israel.
Answer the question please.

1. They left, the Palestinians remained, the Jews showed little or no interest in it until Adolph.

2. Doesn't matter who it belonged to, what does matter is when it was being decided whom to give it to the Palestinians should've been given a fair opportunity........they weren't.
They did not leave, they were hauled off as slaves.
Though some did remain.

The Palestinians DID get a chance are MORE then a fair share. More land and better fertile land too boot. They chose not to take it.

[DragonStryk72]

Why should they accept a state that does not comprise fully the lands that were taken from them illegally in 1947? If Mexico were given part of Arizona and New Mexico by the U.N. and there were conflict, would you accept anything other than the return of the full territory that comprised Arizona and New Mexico? I think not.

It wasn't a country in 1947!! seriously, The british made it up, same with Iraq, they just didn't have a name for the area, that's all. Palestine was an afterthought nothing more, and had they not STARTED the fight, they would not be getting an ass-whuppin now. They chose to kick this off, and Israel has chosen to fight to win.

[OCA]

It wasn't a country in 1947!! seriously, The british made it up, same with Iraq, they just didn't have a name for the area, that's all. Palestine was an afterthought nothing more, and had they not STARTED the fight, they would not be getting an ass-whuppin now. They chose to kick this off, and Israel has chosen to fight to win.

So what do we gain by the existence of Israel besides our tax dollars being used to prop them up in a way we prop no other nation up? Certainly they are not our ally because that would denote that they reciprocate the aid which everyone knows nothing ever flows our way from Israel besides Manischewitz wine.

I know! Our politicians get votes and money from the huge Israeli lobby here in America, and in reciprocation our politicians pass legislation which allows Israel to continue to practice its policy of apartheid and human rights abuses, abuses to which America continuously turns a blind eye towards.

[OCA]

Answer the question please.




Question answered, not my problem if the answer don't suit ya.

[The Reverend]

The question was not a bad analogy.


Israel was not illegally created.

On another note the creation of Israel was prophesied in the Bible. God gave them that land and it has been and always will be theirs.

[Kathianne]

Question answered, not my problem if the answer don't suit ya.

No, you didn't:

http://debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=214303&postcount=142

On the other hand, you are for open borders, right?

[OCA]

No, you didn't:

http://debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=214303&postcount=142

On the other hand, you are for open borders, right?

Sure I did.

Nice try at mischaracterizing my position on the border, do you teach your students the same ethics?

My official position is seal up the border first then amnesty for all non-felon committing illegals..........not that this has shit to do with this thread.

[Kathianne]

Sure I did.

Nice try at mischaracterizing my position on the border, do you teach your students the same ethics?

My official position is seal up the border first then amnesty for all non-felon committing illegals..........not that this has shit to do with this thread.

You feeling pressured? Nice segue to the teaching deal, are you 12? It actually has quite a bit to do with the borders/amnesty issue, as your position appears as I said earlier, consistent on both. The fact that you fail to recognize it or the other issues raised is not anyone else's problem.

Oh, and you didn't answer his question.

[OCA]

You feeling pressured? Nice segue to the teaching deal, are you 12? It actually has quite a bit to do with the borders/amnesty issue, as your position appears as I said earlier, consistent on both. The fact that you fail to recognize it or the other issues raised is not anyone else's problem.

Oh, and you didn't answer his question.

Pressured? LOL. I just figured that if mischaracterization and obfuscation were two of your online traits which you seem to be exhibiting lately maybe you were passing that on to future generations.

There is zero correlation between the Israeli problem and illegals, don't be silly.

Yes I answered.

[Kathianne]

Pressured? LOL. I just figured that if mischaracterization and obfuscation were two of your online traits which you seem to be exhibiting lately maybe you were passing that on to future generations.

There is zero correlation between the Israeli problem and illegals, don't be silly.

Yes I answered.

:laugh2: No you didn't. You are being silly.

[OCA]

:laugh2: No you didn't. You are being silly.

Reread....again.

[Kathianne]

Reread....again.

I already did, now you.

[Dilloduck]

1) The history of Jews in Israel can be traced back to before Biblical times. Remember they are the ones that built Jerusalem.

2) The land was not stolen nor was it the Palestinians. It was the Ottoman Empires and when Britian defeated them it became Britians.

And Jews swiped it from the Caananites at el. Do Jews have dibs on it ?

[OCA]

I already did, now you.

I guess comprehension was lost on you.

Anyway, thanks for participating though, useless as it was on your part.

[OCA]

And Jews swiped it from the Caananites at el. Do Jews have dibs on it ?

Yes, God drew up a 40,000 yr lease on it and Moses signed at the x.

[Dilloduck]

Yes, God drew up a 40,000 yr lease on it and Moses signed at the x.

With witnesses ?? :laugh2:

[Kathianne]

I guess comprehension was lost on you.

Anyway, thanks for participating though, useless as it was on your part.

You're welcome. Tell me OCA, do you feel fulfilled as a man, a Greek to be so full of hubris? Just wondering.

[DragonStryk72]

So what do we gain by the existence of Israel besides our tax dollars being used to prop them up in a way we prop no other nation up? Certainly they are not our ally because that would denote that they reciprocate the aid which everyone knows nothing ever flows our way from Israel besides Manischewitz wine.

I know! Our politicians get votes and money from the huge Israeli lobby here in America, and in reciprocation our politicians pass legislation which allows Israel to continue to practice its policy of apartheid and human rights abuses, abuses to which America continuously turns a blind eye towards.

And what, Palestines doing a better job? People were all for Israel, until they kept winning, then suddenly they were "bullying" Palestinians, by not letting their enemies beat the shit out of them, or just hand over land to them like Europe did to Germany and Italy in WWII. God forbid that Israel defend itself. And as for these human rights violations and apartheid, I'll a link for those.

I do agree, we should not be pumping them up, however, nor should we be holding their leash back either, which we do. When they fight back, we step in and back them down, instead of simply letting the inevitable happen. Israel OR Palestine will control the area, but not both.

[Yurt]

Most Palestinians can trace their lineage on that land going back many generations, very few Jews can trace it back any farther past when their grandparents emigrated from Europe.

So its ok to force the Palestinians into exile but not the Jews? If not give back the land stolen by the U.N. in 1947.

there is no such thing as palestinians, they were ottomans, egyptians and so forth. its interesting that you mention lineage..... so if the jews were in fact forced off the land by muslims, crusades, and the romans....they had to of course live elsewhere until such time it was safe to come back.... isn't that what in essense one could argue they did?

this argument potentially could go forever, who was there first....who has greater claim....

no?

[OCA]

You're welcome. Tell me OCA, do you feel fulfilled as a man, a Greek to be so full of hubris? Just wondering.

If by hubris you mean my self confidence.....why yes, it does, quite so. Thanks for noticing.

[Yurt]

OCA my friend, click on this:

http://www.palestinehistory.com/history/brief/brief.htm


interesting the years it gets "important"

LOL

[actsnoblemartin]

the cannanites wouldnt let um threw on their way to israel, so they got bitch slapped by the jews


And Jews swiped it from the Caananites at el. Do Jews have dibs on it ?

[actsnoblemartin]

You are an ignorant thug, and a lying bitch.

You dont know a dam thing about israel, except your hate and contempt for it.

Israel is not practicing aparteid. Nor is it committing human rights abuses, but morons like you, single out israel, and turn a blind eye to the rest of the world.

You digust me. :pee:

Faggot.

Enjoy your neg rep bitch :fu:, you earned it for being a hateful fuck and rude to other posters. You ever call me raymond again, and ill neg rep you again asshole.




So what do we gain by the existence of Israel besides our tax dollars being used to prop them up in a way we prop no other nation up? Certainly they are not our ally because that would denote that they reciprocate the aid which everyone knows nothing ever flows our way from Israel besides Manischewitz wine.

I know! Our politicians get votes and money from the huge Israeli lobby here in America, and in reciprocation our politicians pass legislation which allows Israel to continue to practice its policy of apartheid and human rights abuses, abuses to which America continuously turns a blind eye towards.

[OCA]

You are an ignorant thug, and a lying bitch.

You dont know a dam thing about israel, except your hate and contempt for it.

Israel is not practicing aparteid. Nor is it committing human rights abuses, but morons like you, single out israel, and turn a blind eye to the rest of the world.

You digust me. :pee:

Faggot.

Enjoy your neg rep bitch :fu:, you earned it for being a hateful fuck and rude to other posters. You ever call me raymond again, and ill neg rep you again asshole.

Ok...............Raymond. ROTFLMFAO!:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

You know you are doing something right when you get negged and an episode of tourettes from Ray all in the same post lol.

[OCA]

Also can someone help Ray and point out to him where i've been "rude" as he calls it in this thread?

[Dilloduck]

Also can someone help Ray and point out to him where i've been "rude" as he calls it in this thread?

It's a waste of time. The guy has Aspergers along with other problems that inhibit his ablilty to act in social interactions.

[OCA]

You are an ignorant thug, and a lying bitch.

You dont know a dam thing about israel, except your hate and contempt for it.

Israel is not practicing aparteid. Nor is it committing human rights abuses, but morons like you, single out israel, and turn a blind eye to the rest of the world.

You digust me. :pee:

Faggot.

Enjoy your neg rep bitch :fu:, you earned it for being a hateful fuck and rude to other posters. You ever call me raymond again, and ill neg rep you again asshole.

Ray we were having a pretty civilized discussion in this thread and then you jump in with stuff such as this, do you not see that you are the biggest detrimental member currently on this board? You simply have zero control over yourself and your emotions, and you have not a clue as to how to debate.

[The Reverend]

Ray we were having a pretty civilized discussion in this thread and then you jump in with stuff such as this, do you not see that you are the biggest detrimental member currently on this board? You simply have zero contro over yourself and your emotions, and you have not a clue as to how to debate.
According to PR I am the biggest detriment to the board, along with PmP.

Now my title is getting taken away from me?

[OCA]

According to PR I am the biggest detriment to the board, along with PmP.

Now my title is getting taken away from me?

Rev, i've been away for a few weeks so I don't know what happened with you and PR but in my opinion you got a long way to go to reach the gutter depths of Raymond.

[The Reverend]

I just joined and PR did not like my thread defending McReagan (McCain)

Short story of it.

[OCA]

I just joined and PR did not like my thread defending McReagan (McCain)

Short story of it.

Oooooh not a big fan of Johnny Boy myself, he's a sellout. He's the reason i'm voting 3rd party(not that he stands a chance in hell of defeating any Demo this cycle).

[The Reverend]

And that is fine, your choice. We seem to be able to disagree and debate and still get along.

Funny thing is that I bet PR and I have alot of the same views except this one.

[Abbey Marie]

They occupied their territory ilegally in the first place, they expelled them and herded them into designated areas, they restrict the flow of neccessities in and out of those areas...........yes, they are responsible for them, not because the Palestinians wanted it that way but rather the Israeli's themselves have fixed it that way.

Few and far between? Go to my new thread in "international politics" and see how I debunked your few and far between melarkey.

The bitter truth is is that the root problem in all of the M.E. is the continued illegal existence and practices of Israel. Now i'm not calling for the elimination of Israel per say but if there were ni Israel there would be no probs in M.E.. If you support Israel you support the further continuation of problems in the M.E.


If your bolded statement were true, then why did Saddam invade Iran?
I think it is naive to state that the ME would essentially be a utopia if it were not for Israel. These are warlike people, who have repeatedly shown themselves over the centuries to not be content to live in peace.

[OCA]

If your bolded statement were true, then why did Saddam invade Iran?
I think it is naive to state that the ME would essentially be a utopia if it were not for Israel. These are warlike people, who have repeatedly shown themselves over the centuries to not be content to live in peace.

While that may be true throwing Israel into the mix certainly did not help and in fact is cited by most there as the #1 agitator in the mix.

[Yurt]

While that may be true throwing Israel into the mix certainly did not help and in fact is cited by most there as the #1 agitator in the mix.

so why did the muslims conquer north africa, spain, the land now and then called, Israel?

if israel was not in the picture, something would be. by its very nature, islam must be the non agressor. they are not conquering people, they are merely defending the land and taking it back for "Allah"

have you ever talked to a muslim (forum or person)?

[Nukeman]

While that may be true throwing Israel into the mix certainly did not help and in fact is cited by most there as the #1 agitator in the mix.
Truth be told OCA, as long as Israel exist than the ME has a single enemy to complain about and pour all of their fear and angst into. So you could say that as far as the other countries are concerned Israel keeps peace between them by their combined hatred of Israel......:poke:

[DragonStryk72]

Truth be told OCA, as long as Israel exist than the ME has a single enemy to complain about and pour all of their fear and angst into. So you could say that as far as the other countries are concerned Israel keeps peace between them by their combined hatred of Israel......:poke:

:lol:, god that's morbid

[Nukeman]

:lol:, god that's morbid
Maybe but does have a certain amount of truth doesn't it???


I mean the old say:

"Is the enemy of my enemy my friend"?

[Yurt]

:lol:, god that's morbid

and you whine about my posts .......

[Nukeman]

and you whine about my posts .......

What!!!!???????:cool: