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View Full Version : Severed fingers of 5 hostages delivered to U.S. officials in Iraq



LiberalNation
03-12-2008, 08:02 PM
:sadly:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080312/wl_mcclatchy/2877385

BAGHDAD _U.S. authorities in Baghdad have received five severed fingers belonging to four Americans and an Austrian who were taken hostage more than a year ago in Iraq , U.S. officials said Wednesday.

The FBI is investigating the grisly development, and the families of the five kidnapped contractors have been notified, American officials said on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to discuss the case publicly.

Authorities confirmed that the fingers belonged to hostages Jonathan Cote , of Gainesville, Fla. ; Joshua Munns , of Redding, Calif. ; Paul Johnson Reuben , of Buffalo, Minn. ; Bert Nussbaumer of Vienna, Austria ; and Ronald J. Withrow , an American who was kidnapped separately from the others.

Little-Acorn
03-12-2008, 08:45 PM
If we sit down and negotiate with these people, they will realize we are nice and they won't do us any more harm.

Mr. P
03-12-2008, 08:48 PM
Waterboarding is SUCH a crime!

LiberalNation
03-12-2008, 08:50 PM
Worse things that could be done doesn't make it not a crime.

Speeding is SUCH a crime..................compared to murder.

Pale Rider
03-12-2008, 09:08 PM
Worse things that could be done doesn't make it not a crime.

Speeding is SUCH a crime..................compared to murder.

So cutting someones finger off is like, what... $100 fine and a weekend in jail offense? Nothing serious...

Mr. P
03-12-2008, 09:40 PM
Worse things that could be done doesn't make it not a crime.

Speeding is SUCH a crime..................compared to murder.

Some would say law enforcement is a crime, does that make questioning a crime suspect a crime? Is it a crime to use information gained to catch the bad guys, or prosecute a perpetrator? Is harmless interrogation of a wartime captive to save lives a crime?

LiberalNation
03-12-2008, 09:43 PM
Is it a crime to torture people to gain more than likely unreliable info, yep, according to treaties we've signed but then just ask the Native Americans how much our treaties mean.

Mr. P
03-12-2008, 09:53 PM
Is it a crime to torture people to gain more than likely unreliable info, yep, according to treaties we've signed but then just ask the Native Americans how much our treaties mean.

How does one know if the information is "unreliable" until it's obtained?
If it IS reliable, that is, productive, is it still a crime?

truthmatters
03-12-2008, 10:13 PM
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/soyster-speaks.html



It provides bad intel.


"Experienced military and intelligence professionals know that torture, in addition to being illegal and immoral, is an unreliable means of extracting information from prisoners. Much is being made of former CIA official John Kiriakou's statement that waterboarding "broke" a high-value terrorist involved in the 9/11 plot. There are always those who, whether out of fear or inexperience, rush to push the panic button instead of relying on what we know works best and most reliably in these situations. I would caution those who would rely on this example. It is far from clear that the information obtained from this prisoner through illegal means could not have been obtained through lawful methods. The FBI was getting good intelligence from this prisoner before the CIA took over.
And there are numerous examples of cases where relying on information obtained through torture has disastrous consequences. The reality is that use of torture produces inconsistent results that are an unreliable basis for action and policy. The overwhelming consensus of intelligence professionals is that torture produces unreliable information. And the overwhelming consensus of senior military leaders is that resort to torture is dishonorable. Use of such primitive methods actually put our own troops and our nation at risk."

Gaffer
03-12-2008, 11:21 PM
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/soyster-speaks.html



It provides bad intel.


"Experienced military and intelligence professionals know that torture, in addition to being illegal and immoral, is an unreliable means of extracting information from prisoners. Much is being made of former CIA official John Kiriakou's statement that waterboarding "broke" a high-value terrorist involved in the 9/11 plot. There are always those who, whether out of fear or inexperience, rush to push the panic button instead of relying on what we know works best and most reliably in these situations. I would caution those who would rely on this example. It is far from clear that the information obtained from this prisoner through illegal means could not have been obtained through lawful methods. The FBI was getting good intelligence from this prisoner before the CIA took over.
And there are numerous examples of cases where relying on information obtained through torture has disastrous consequences. The reality is that use of torture produces inconsistent results that are an unreliable basis for action and policy. The overwhelming consensus of intelligence professionals is that torture produces unreliable information. And the overwhelming consensus of senior military leaders is that resort to torture is dishonorable. Use of such primitive methods actually put our own troops and our nation at risk."

Would you please post some of those "examples"?

Torture and discomfort are two different things. We don't use torture, we use discomfort.

LiberalNation
03-12-2008, 11:33 PM
We prosecuted japs in ww2 for waterboarding. It was torture to us then........

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=6930746&ch=4227541&src=news

The presumptive GOP nominee for president, McCain says waterboarding prisoners is torture.

stephanie
03-12-2008, 11:39 PM
Well..if waterboarding is out..maybe we should just do as they do, and start cutting off body parts..:poke:

Yurt
03-12-2008, 11:40 PM
its amazing how nice we wish things are when we are safe and cozy in our bedrooms and not on the frontlines...

Mr. P
03-13-2008, 12:08 AM
Well..if waterboarding is out..maybe we should just do as they do, and start cutting off body parts..:poke:


I think everyone against waterboarding should watch the beheading and execution video LN posted...including LN.

Watch that guy flop around in his own blood! Be sure an have your sound up so you can hear his dieing gasps for air!

THAT FOLKS, IS REALLY HONEST TO GOD TORTURE!

You people that wanna make a physically harmless interrogation method an issue make me f'ing sick!

Kathianne
03-13-2008, 12:17 AM
I think the country should really soul search what is acceptable and not regarding investigating and what is torture; keeping in mind the mindset of the enemy.