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View Full Version : Polygamist sect victim of hoax?



avatar4321
04-18-2008, 03:16 AM
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271689,00.html

Im probably going to take a rather controversial stand on this issue since i know the feelings of alot of you on this board. I don't know how well you've been following the polygamist "compound" being raided a few weeks ago on a supposed phone call alleging abuse that resulted in the entire communities children being taken away from them. With the link above, it looks like the woman who made the original phone calls alleging abuse may have been found, and those calls were a hoax.

I am rather mixed on the issue here. I detest these polygamists. And if there is abuse going on it needs to be taken care of immediately. But I am also a defense attorney, and quite honestly, the magnitude of the action taken here frightens me.

Since the story broke, I've had seen a number of stories that have m concerned on what's going on. First, it seemed odd that, from the evidence I've seen, two inconsistant phone calls from the same person provided the officers with enough probable cause to not only search the community to the extent they did but to remove 400+ children from their homes. Obviously, if there has been child abuse, the matter needs to be solved. The abusers need to go to jail and we have to do something to protect the children. But removing all the children regardless of whether there is evidence of abuse? It just seems very excessive.

in addition, it's also been clear that the some of the Texas Lawmakers have been specifically changing legislation to give the law enforcement power to go after this group. Texas Legislature discusses changing law in response to sect moving there (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/12/us/12raid.html?_r=1&em&ex=1208145600&en=a49bdc808f6af04e&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin)

Child abuse is clearly an emotional crime. It pulls on the heart strings of people. And there are alot of people who dont reallycare what the government has to do to break this group up. From the time the group moved to Texas, thre have been people saying, "We all know they are abusing children." I was watching people interview the residents in the surrounding areas. Everyone "knows" something is happening. Yet, the government hasnt been able to find any probable to go in and search until now. I think if there had been evidence, law enforcement would have gone in a long time ago. The very scope and organization of their raid seems to be evidence that the State was planning this for a while. But Id think that if they did have real evidence, these cases would have been prosecuted years ago.

Everything I've seen in the media on this case just worries me. I know polygamy is unpopular and destestable to many people. (I can't imagine one angry wife, let alone several... scary thought). And this particular sect has a very bad image. However, I am very concerned that if people are willing to look the other way and allow the government to destroy them for the "sake of the children" that there is going to be nothing to stop the government from going after other unpopular religions and sects. Especially, if this woman did perpetuate a hoax to get this ball rolling.

I am also very concerned that if law enforcement jumped the gun on case, that they may have compromised any legitimate evidence they could find to prosecute anyone actually guilty of abuse. They have also reinforced the sects views that the world is out to get them which will make them even more recluse and harder to infiltrate for evidence.

I honestly don't know whether anyone is actually guilty of abuse. The State has the burden to prove that there was a crime committed. What I do know is that the action the state took is unprecedented. Nothing like this has ever happened before. And I am very concerned at what the precedent could become if everything isn't done by the book. If people are willing to overlook overzealous law enforcement by being so emotionally involved that they ignore the facts, we have bigger problems than the fact that some child abusers may be off the hook because evidence has to be suppressed. We may have the Due Process requirements of the law become completely subverted.

I have a feeling youll see this incident creating a number of cases and precedents and going before the US Supreme Court before it's over. I know alot of people are inclined to just want to destroy these people as child abusers. If I had it my way, child abusers would be put to death. But atleast wait till someone is atleast arrested before investing emotionally into seeing them fry. There are other huge legal issues involved in this case that being too emotional could blind us too. I honestly think this is going to have alot of legal precents come out of it that can be either bad or good for our nation as a whole.

This whole situation is ugly and unfortunate. Nothing good is going to come out of it.

avatar4321
04-18-2008, 03:44 AM
BTW, this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080418/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat) is a perfect example of the chaos that's going on there at the moment.

Seriously this is a crazy case.

diuretic
04-18-2008, 04:37 AM
I agree. Emotional cases or matters which outrage public opinion have to be handled extremely carefully by police and by the rest of the criminal justice system, especially when politicians of any sort are on the sidelines hooting and hollering. It's entirely possible for due process to get steamrolled and for a stampede to start.

The word that comes to mind is "prudence" and the need for those involved in enforcement and justice to be extremely careful that they're not playing to the gallery and they're doing their duty objective and not with one eye on what the media and the pubic are saying.

Hobbit
04-18-2008, 10:01 AM
what gets me is how many people immediately knee jerk to abuse allegations against polygamists. I'm not a fan, but from what I've heard, there are polygamist compounds where the women and children are perfectly happy, not to mention that polygamy was the norm for thousands of years. Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, had 700 wives (which begs the question of how wise any of use could be, since the wisest man who ever lived willingly signed up for 700 mothers-in-law.

Seriously, charge the men with polygamy if you want, but the children need to be with their mothers, as most children raised by the state wind up in prison.

Trigg
04-18-2008, 01:58 PM
I detest these polygamists.

Why??

Many, many men and women have relationships outside marriage. If polygamy came out of the closet the abuse would be easier to control since they wouldn't be secluded on remote outposts.


Look at Nevada and prostitution they've legalized it and are able to tax it and check the prostitutes for infection.

midcan5
04-18-2008, 02:17 PM
Would you feel that way if they were Muslims? and if so where is your outrage over Guantanamo?

Devils advocate

theHawk
04-18-2008, 02:55 PM
It seems really strange that they have yet to identify the girl who called in. If they have evidence for a specific child then they have the right to intervine. But all 400? It looks to me like the constitutional rights of these people are being trampled on.

theHawk
04-18-2008, 02:56 PM
Would you feel that way if they were Muslims? and if so where is your outrage over Guantanamo?

Devils advocate

How many US citizens are in Guantanamo?

PostmodernProphet
04-18-2008, 03:44 PM
It seems really strange that they have yet to identify the girl who called in. If they have evidence for a specific child then they have the right to intervine. But all 400? It looks to me like the constitutional rights of these people are being trampled on.

if a hoax report initiated the first search warrant it may have an impact upon criminal proceedings, but not upon the issue of child abuse/neglect....in most states the issue of removing a child from the custody of parents is handled by a different court than the criminal courts....usually the probate or a special family court.....if child protective services receives information about the abuse of a child from ANY means, even an unconstitutional one, they will continue to pursue the issue of child custody to it's completion.....

upon reaching the compound they discovered girls under the age of 15 that were pregnant....one 16 year old who had three children.....it is unlikely that any woman who doesn't leave the compound permanently will ever get custody again.....

avatar4321
04-18-2008, 05:23 PM
Why??

Many, many men and women have relationships outside marriage. If polygamy came out of the closet the abuse would be easier to control since they wouldn't be secluded on remote outposts.


Look at Nevada and prostitution they've legalized it and are able to tax it and check the prostitutes for infection.

I've seen some of the shennenigans this group has pulled before. When I talk about these polygamists i mean this particular sect. Honestly, Id rather see men who marry multiple women and take responsibility for their actions who guys who just carelessly screw around with multiple women, get them pregnant, and run. Neither is really the ideal situation. but im always for taking responsibility over not.

avatar4321
04-18-2008, 05:24 PM
Would you feel that way if they were Muslims? and if so where is your outrage over Guantanamo?

Devils advocate

Maybe you could inform me where any of these polygamists are committing acts of war against the United States or were captured on the Battlefield.

Kathianne
04-18-2008, 05:50 PM
I honestly don't know whether anyone is actually guilty of abuse. The State has the burden to prove that there was a crime committed. What I do know is that the action the state took is unprecedented. Nothing like this has ever happened before. And I am very concerned at what the precedent could become if everything isn't done by the book. If people are willing to overlook overzealous law enforcement by being so emotionally involved that they ignore the facts, we have bigger problems than the fact that some child abusers may be off the hook because evidence has to be suppressed. We may have the Due Process requirements of the law become completely subverted.

I have a feeling youll see this incident creating a number of cases and precedents and going before the US Supreme Court before it's over. I know alot of people are inclined to just want to destroy these people as child abusers. If I had it my way, child abusers would be put to death. But atleast wait till someone is atleast arrested before investing emotionally into seeing them fry. There are other huge legal issues involved in this case that being too emotional could blind us too. I honestly think this is going to have alot of legal precents come out of it that can be either bad or good for our nation as a whole.

This whole situation is ugly and unfortunate. Nothing good is going to come out of it.

I have so many conflicting thoughts on this case; no parents should lose custody of their children based upon a phone call or 3, without due process.

I believe polygamy undermines our culture.

I can believe this is a cult that indoctrinates the children from their earliest years, yet that in and of itself is not 'proof' of abuse.

I don't blame the police, but the court system needs to get on this pronto and ensure the state isn't railroading these people.

avatar4321
04-18-2008, 09:01 PM
State keeps custody of children (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24199519/)

Seriously, I'd love to see what is actually going on in these hearings because its so hard to tell the facts from what the media is telling us.

Dilloduck
04-18-2008, 09:06 PM
State keeps custody of children (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24199519/)

Seriously, I'd love to see what is actually going on in these hearings because its so hard to tell the facts from what the media is telling us.

These people won't even tell the media anything---hundreds of kids with no birth certficates who can't or wont' identify their own parents or siblings. Cult behavior--crazy.

avatar4321
04-18-2008, 09:12 PM
These people won't even tell the media anything---hundreds of kids with no birth certficates who can't or wont' identify their own parents or siblings. Cult behavior--crazy.

not really so sure... I am not saying they shouldn't do what they can to cooperate, but if the police just raided my community and ripped the children of me and my neighbors from us, I don't think id be inclined to cooperate with the state officials either.

Dilloduck
04-18-2008, 09:14 PM
not really so sure... I am not saying they shouldn't do what they can to cooperate, but if the police just raided my community and ripped the children of me and my neighbors from us, I don't think id be inclined to cooperate with the state officials either.

They're brainwashed and clueless.

Gaffer
04-19-2008, 12:06 PM
The police acted on a call and issued search warrants before going in to the commune. The court is determining what to do with the children based on what is being said there now. It seems the boys were taught to be predators while the girls were taught to be victims. It seems any girl over 12 was subject to abuse and forced marriages. A whole lot of under age pregnancies were involved.

There are no criminal proceedings going on yet. They are still determining how to keep the children safe. They are also in the process of doing DNA testing to find out who is related to who and for future prosecution of the older men.