The purpose of religion

[avatar4321]

I was reading a book called "The Great Awakening". It's probably one of many books with that name. But rather than discussing the Great Awakening in history, its more about an awakening the author sees in America now. I knew when I picked it up it was a liberal viewpoint. I figured it would be an interesting read regardless.

Reading the book, I've been struck by a few things. The author discusses how the religious right is bad religion. And how there is a religious revival on the left concerning real issues IE liberal issues like the environmental and social justice. And that this is "good" religious activity. And there is just a number of things that jumped out at me like:

1)The assumption the author is using as though religion is bad unless it supports liberal ideals.
2)Liberals are all for "healing" if its behind them, otherwise slash like crazy.

And

What I thought was the most thing i noticed was that there was this huge assumption that the purpose of religion was to use it as a vehicle for political change. So far there has been little to no mention of Christ, of what the Gospel is about. The only reason it gets a mention at all is if it somehow can be used to forward a previously established political agenda. It just seemed like the authors viewpoint wasnt about religion changing ones self, it was about using religion to control others.

I don't think thats the point of faith. I think the purpose of faith is work on the individual. I believe faith is meant to change the inner person. And by changing the inner person you change the world. I am just dumbfounded by the viewpoint that faith is meant to change others. Because practically you can't change others. You can teach the truth. You can exhort, preach, expound just and holy principles all day long. But unless those who hear the message and repent to become a new person, you aren't doing anything.

Religion is about learning truth and changing our lives to live it. It's about truly knowing God. The social changes that occur are just side benefits.

One of my favorate quotes:

"The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature."

And I think thats the point of religion. To change the inner man to be like God.

So what do you think the purpose of religion? Why do you go to Church? Why do you believe? Or why do you reject religion?

[Pale Rider]

The author sounds as though his words are straight from the devil.

[Missileman]

Or why do you reject religion?

Take for instance the bedrock principle of Christianity...the only way to heaven is through Christ. If true, 4 billion people on this planet are destined for hell whose only crime in most cases is they were born into the wrong religion. That doesn't make sense. If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.

[Hagbard Celine]

The author sounds as though his words are straight from the devil.

Obviously they are. He's a lib :poke:

[AllieBaba]

Take for instance the bedrock principle of Christianity...the only way to heaven is through Christ. If true, 4 billion people on this planet are destined for hell whose only crime in most cases is they were born into the wrong religion. That doesn't make sense. If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.

Tell me what the sense is in an acorn being the beginning of an oak tree.
Men cannot see the whole truth. Yes, sadly, the unsaved are destined for hell, which is why Christians work so hard at reaching everyone all the time. God loves us and he gave us just a few rules...and one of them is to accept Jesus, his Son. He gave us Jesus, he allowed his son to take on pain and death so we could be with him forever...and the only thing he expects from us in return is that we believe in him.

But if we don't recognize him, he won't recognize us. That's the way it has to be. It's not a matter of, "Oh, well, you knew about me and refused to believe but hey, you're a nice guy...so we'll let you in anyway." It's a matter of them's the rules, and the rules are the rules. God can't be a righteous judge if he doesn't enforce them.

Nobody deserves heaven. There is not one person on the face of the earth who "deserves" heaven. We all sin, we are all vile creatures, we are not comparable to God....and the only way we can be made acceptable is through belief in Christ. It's not about what "makes sense" to puny minded humans, it's about what God dictated. Men don't understand the mind of God, and it's arrogance to suppose that if you don't understand why something is the way it is, why then, it must not really be that way.....

[Missileman]

Tell me what the sense is in an acorn being the beginning of an oak tree.
Men cannot see the whole truth. Yes, sadly, the unsaved are destined for hell, which is why Christians work so hard at reaching everyone all the time. God loves us and he gave us just a few rules...and one of them is to accept Jesus, his Son. He gave us Jesus, he allowed his son to take on pain and death so we could be with him forever...and the only thing he expects from us in return is that we believe in him.

But if we don't recognize him, he won't recognize us. That's the way it has to be. It's not a matter of, "Oh, well, you knew about me and refused to believe but hey, you're a nice guy...so we'll let you in anyway." It's a matter of them's the rules, and the rules are the rules. God can't be a righteous judge if he doesn't enforce them.

Nobody deserves heaven. There is not one person on the face of the earth who "deserves" heaven. We all sin, we are all vile creatures, we are not comparable to God....and the only way we can be made acceptable is through belief in Christ. It's not about what "makes sense" to puny minded humans, it's about what God dictated. Men don't understand the mind of God, and it's arrogance to suppose that if you don't understand why something is the way it is, why then, it must not really be that way.....

Make excuses til the cows come home...there's no way for you or a god to justify the condemnation of 2/3rds of the planet to hell for no reason. Do babies born to Christian familes who die before they can "know" Christ get a free pass to heaven? What about the babies of non-Christians? Do you really believe they have a maternity ward in hell?

If your god is real, then presumeably, he creates all of the souls on earth. You really believe he just throws away 2/3rds for the hell of it?

[PostmodernProphet]

Take for instance the bedrock principle of Christianity...the only way to heaven is through Christ. If true, 4 billion people on this planet are destined for hell whose only crime in most cases is they were born into the wrong religion. That doesn't make sense. If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.


why wouldn't it make sense?......since he offered salvation free of charge to anyone who accepted it, the only reason they wouldn't get it would be because they chose not to accept it.....why would you expect someone to get what they chose not to accept?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Do babies born to Christian familes who die before they can "know" Christ get a free pass to heaven? What about the babies of non-Christians?

quite honestly, I don't have a clue.....and neither do you.....so why are you condemning God for doing something when you don't have a clue whether he is doing it?......

[Mr. P]

Tell me what the sense is in an acorn being the beginning of an oak tree.
Men cannot see the whole truth. Yes, sadly, the unsaved are destined for hell, which is why Christians work so hard at reaching everyone all the time. God loves us and he gave us just a few rules...and one of them is to accept Jesus, his Son. He gave us Jesus, he allowed his son to take on pain and death so we could be with him forever...and the only thing he expects from us in return is that we believe in him.

But if we don't recognize him, he won't recognize us. That's the way it has to be. It's not a matter of, "Oh, well, you knew about me and refused to believe but hey, you're a nice guy...so we'll let you in anyway." It's a matter of them's the rules, and the rules are the rules. God can't be a righteous judge if he doesn't enforce them.

Nobody deserves heaven. There is not one person on the face of the earth who "deserves" heaven. We all sin, we are all vile creatures, we are not comparable to God....and the only way we can be made acceptable is through belief in Christ. It's not about what "makes sense" to puny minded humans, it's about what God dictated. Men don't understand the mind of God, and it's arrogance to suppose that if you don't understand why something is the way it is, why then, it must not really be that way.....

We have another THUMPER! :laugh2:

[Missileman]

why wouldn't it make sense?......since he offered salvation free of charge to anyone who accepted it, the only reason they wouldn't get it would be because they chose not to accept it.....why would you expect someone to get what they chose not to accept?.....

And the people who go through their entire life without ever hearing about Christ?

[PostmodernProphet]

And the people who go through their entire life without ever hearing about Christ?

I have never seen anything in scripture indicate that anyone is condemned who does not have an opportunity to choose.....the bible even states that Christ went to hell to give the opportunity to choose to those who died before his incarnation......

you, however, having had the opportunity and rejected it, would be screwed.....

[Missileman]

I have never seen anything in scripture indicate that anyone is condemned who does not have an opportunity to choose.....the bible even states that Christ went to hell to give the opportunity to choose to those who died before his incarnation......

you, however, having had the opportunity and rejected it, would be screwed.....

Then the way to heaven is through Christ OR ignorance?

[Kathianne]

quite honestly, I don't have a clue.....and neither do you.....so why are you condemning God for doing something when you don't have a clue whether he is doing it?......

I do believe his argument is that Christians, not God, are the ones doing the condemning. I'm Christian, though I don't purport to know the will of God. Yes, I know many can quote chapter and verse to prove that Jesus said such. I'm not denying scripture, just not certain that Christ meant it the way it's now being interpreted, literally.

[avatar4321]

Take for instance the bedrock principle of Christianity...the only way to heaven is through Christ. If true, 4 billion people on this planet are destined for hell whose only crime in most cases is they were born into the wrong religion. That doesn't make sense. If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.

no it doesnt, but then i dont think Christianity requires such a thing.

[avatar4321]

I have never seen anything in scripture indicate that anyone is condemned who does not have an opportunity to choose.....the bible even states that Christ went to hell to give the opportunity to choose to those who died before his incarnation......

you, however, having had the opportunity and rejected it, would be screwed.....

in fact, the scriptures as you point out make it clear that everyone will have a chance to make a choice. To be born again of the Spirit or to remain in their fallen states.

Christ brings salvation to the living and the dead. That's why the resurrection is so important. Through Christ every single person who ever lived will be united with their bodies and saved from death. Every single person will have the opportunity to be cleansed through His Grace.

[avatar4321]

Then the way to heaven is through Christ OR ignorance?

No one can be saved through ignorance. No one can be damned through ignorance. All those who are ignorant will be taught truth. The only ones who need to worry are the ones who reject the truth.

[AllieBaba]

We have another THUMPER! :laugh2:

And we have another anti-Christian spaz.

[avatar4321]

come on guys. be nice.

[Mr. P]

And we have another anti-Christian spaz.

Hardly, if fact because I'm so far from being 'anti-Christian" is why I always point at the thumper, they do nothing but harm to Christianity.

[gabosaurus]

Why does religion need a purpose?

[Missileman]

No one can be saved through ignorance. No one can be damned through ignorance. All those who are ignorant will be taught truth. The only ones who need to worry are the ones who reject the truth.

After you're dead? The truth would be pretty evident then.

[Mr. P]

Why does religion need a purpose?

Without purpose there would be no need.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

[PostmodernProphet]

Then the way to heaven is through Christ OR ignorance?

the way to heaven is through Christ....how he chooses to do that is his choice, not yours.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I do believe his argument is that Christians, not God, are the ones doing the condemning.

I don't think I have misunderstood him....it's a classic argument....God is evil because he doesn't save everyone...ignoring the fact that those who aren't saved are those who consciously choose to refuse him......

[Missileman]

I don't think I have misunderstood him....it's a classic argument....God is evil because he doesn't save everyone...ignoring the fact that those who aren't saved are those who consciously choose to refuse him......

I never said God is evil..I said that a god allowing 2/3rds of his creation to go down the crapper doesn't make any sense.

[Kathianne]

I don't think I have misunderstood him....it's a classic argument....God is evil because he doesn't save everyone...ignoring the fact that those who aren't saved are those who consciously choose to refuse him......

That isn't what I said or implied.

[diuretic]

Or why do you reject religion?

I reject religion on a personal level. I have no problem with anyone's beliefs (and as long as their religious practices don't breach secular law I have no problem with them either).

I simply cannot believe in a god of any type. That doesn't mean I don't believe there is no god. No, it's not a paradox and no, I'm not confused. If you come at me with a reworking of a phrase using a false dilemma I shall probably laugh at you. Think about what I wrote before you have a go.

Anyway that's why I reject religion.

[diuretic]

Without purpose there would be no need.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

That's an interesting point. So what was the need?

[Mr. P]

That's an interesting point. So what was the need?

Personally, I believe it's the human need for answers...answers to questions beyond our ability to answer, therefore a purpose. It's easy to create an answer/s that folks can accept and live with. Like you I don't think that means there is no God, religion is just an easy way to deal with life's questions and be happy for many folks, IMO.

[avatar4321]

After you're dead? The truth would be pretty evident then.

You'd think. But then the truth about smoking is pretty obvious now and it doesnt stop people from smoking now does it?

Human nature is such that even when something is obvious, we dont always do what we know we should.

[Dilloduck]

Take for instance the bedrock principle of Christianity...the only way to heaven is through Christ. If true, 4 billion people on this planet are destined for hell whose only crime in most cases is they were born into the wrong religion. That doesn't make sense. If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.

It doesn't make sense for someone not to figure out that Christ's "way" is a symbolic way. I don't think you have to meet the guy personally or even know a name to call it. For example--I bet billions of people do things that Buddha suggested was "the way" but they are not even aware of his name nor his teaching.

[Abbey Marie]

We have another THUMPER! :laugh2:

Is such unprovoked scorn really necessary?

[diuretic]

Personally, I believe it's the human need for answers...answers to questions beyond our ability to answer, therefore a purpose. It's easy to create an answer/s that folks can accept and live with. Like you I don't think that means there is no God, religion is just an easy way to deal with life's questions and be happy for many folks, IMO.

I'd agree with that. I was just thinking about this the other day on the bus. When we couldn't explain our environment and its phenomena we sought answers. Supernatural explanations did the trick. Then we started to learn more and developed an understanding of phenomena in our environment and worked out the physical, not supernatural causes. We're still answering questions about the unknown by referencing the supernatural.

[Missileman]

You'd think. But then the truth about smoking is pretty obvious now and it doesnt stop people from smoking now does it?


The truth about smoking isn't black and white. There are millions of people who live to ripe old ages having smoked their entire life.

The Hindus have had their truth revealed to them, the Muslims theirs, the Jews, Bhuddists, etc. Why do you reject their truth?

[glockmail]

I never said God is evil..I said that a god allowing 2/3rds of his creation to go down the crapper doesn't make any sense.

Do you still have all the crap that you made in your life, or have you tossed most of it in the trash, where it belongs?

[Missileman]

It doesn't make sense for someone not to figure out that Christ's "way" is a symbolic way. I don't think you have to meet the guy personally or even know a name to call it. For example--I bet billions of people do things that Buddha suggested was "the way" but they are not even aware of his name nor his teaching.

I don't think many Christians are going to agree with that.

[AllieBaba]

Personally, I believe it's the human need for answers...answers to questions beyond our ability to answer, therefore a purpose. It's easy to create an answer/s that folks can accept and live with. Like you I don't think that means there is no God, religion is just an easy way to deal with life's questions and be happy for many folks, IMO.

If you think religion and faith makes anything "easy" you're way off base.

Try living life as a Christian for a day, trying to love your brother, to give no offense, to be a standard to others of what a good thing Christianity is. Try monitoring your THOUGHTS for a day, try to maintain faith, try to maintain God uppermost in your mind at all times. Try to witness without alienating, try to celebrate God regularly and praise him judiciously for every single thing that happens in your life, good or bad. Try to tithe faithfully and with a willing heart, try to conceptualize how it would be to realize there are members of your own family who will not be in heaven.

It isn't easy, and it doesn't make for giddy happiness.

[Hagbard Celine]

in fact, the scriptures as you point out make it clear that everyone will have a chance to make a choice. To be born again of the Spirit or to remain in their fallen states.

Christ brings salvation to the living and the dead. That's why the resurrection is so important. Through Christ every single person who ever lived will be united with their bodies and saved from death. Every single person will have the opportunity to be cleansed through His Grace.

So the "4 billion" other people who happened to be born into the wrong religion will have a chance to accept Christianity at the resurrection? Will we as well or do we only get one chance?
It seems to me that the people who'll get another chance at the resurrection will have a slight upper hand built into their chance at eternity seeing as how the resurrection would provide pretty much irrefutable evidence that the whole Christianity story is true. What about those of us who had nothing to go on except for the rantings of Pat Robertson and Reverend Wright? It doesn't seem fair to me.

[Mr. P]

If you think religion and faith makes anything "easy" you're way off base.

Try living life as a Christian for a day, trying to love your brother, to give no offense, to be a standard to others of what a good thing Christianity is. Try monitoring your THOUGHTS for a day, try to maintain faith, try to maintain God uppermost in your mind at all times. Try to witness without alienating, try to celebrate God regularly and praise him judiciously for every single thing that happens in your life, good or bad. Try to tithe faithfully and with a willing heart, try to conceptualize how it would be to realize there are members of your own family who will not be in heaven.

It isn't easy, and it doesn't make for giddy happiness.

Faith isn't easy and I'd never say it is..religion on the other hand is..don't be so defensive.

[AllieBaba]

Faith isn't easy and I'd never say it is..religion on the other hand is..don't be so defensive.

I'm not defensive. Just pointing out the reasons it isn't easy.

Religion isn't "easy" any more than faith is.

And Hagbard, you get whatever chance you get when (if) you're exposed to Christianity. You have from that time until the end of your life to determine whether or not to accept it...and if you haven't by the time you die, then you have made your choice. If we didn't really have to make a choice until God is looking us in the eye, well then, what's the value of the choice?

So you've been exposed. The clock is ticking. You won't get another chance, after your life is over.

[Mr. P]

I'm not defensive. Just pointing out the reasons it isn't easy.

Religion isn't "easy" any more than faith is.

And Hagbard, you get whatever chance you get when (if) you're exposed to Christianity. You have from that time until the end of your life to determine whether or not to accept it...and if you haven't by the time you die, then you have made your choice. If we didn't really have to make a choice until God is looking us in the eye, well then, what's the value of the choice?

So you've been exposed. The clock is ticking. You won't get another chance, after your life is over.

Just prove you're correct and every other religion is wrong..
Your belief and faith are not proof.

[Missileman]

I'm not defensive. Just pointing out the reasons it isn't easy.

Religion isn't "easy" any more than faith is.

And Hagbard, you get whatever chance you get when (if) you're exposed to Christianity. You have from that time until the end of your life to determine whether or not to accept it...and if you haven't by the time you die, then you have made your choice. If we didn't really have to make a choice until God is looking us in the eye, well then, what's the value of the choice?

So you've been exposed. The clock is ticking. You won't get another chance, after your life is over.

Where does that leave those who are never exposed? When do they get their shot? After they're dead and standing in front of St. Peter? Or are you of the opinion that those people are destined for hell, whether they were decent human beings or not?

[AllieBaba]

Can't do it. That's why it's called "faith". If it could be proven, then there would be no "faith" needed.

It isn't going to happen, as faith in Jesus is the only thing required to get to heaven...it's the one thing that will not be proven until Jesus returns. And then it will be too late for most.

[Pale Rider]

The Bible says that the road to hell is wide, and many will take it, and also that the path to heaven is narrow, and few will find it. But then it goes on to say in Revelations that in the end days, those that shall cry out to the Lord will be saved, but then Jesus said that the only way onto the father was through him. So take it as you like. Myself, I just cover all the bases. I'm baptisted, I'm reborn in the name of Jesus Christ, and I'll never deny my faith. Hopefully my path is up when I die.

[Mr. P]

Can't do it. That's why it's called "faith". If it could be proven, then there would be no "faith" needed.

It isn't going to happen, as faith in Jesus is the only thing required to get to heaven...it's the one thing that will not be proven until Jesus returns. And then it will be too late for most.

You're right it can't be proven which is why claims that it is the only way is moot. Many believe as you, many don't, no one really knows the truth but many claim they do..at least you admit it's beyond proof.

[AllieBaba]

You're right it can't be proven which is why claims that it is the only way is moot. Many believe as you, many don't, no one really knows the truth but many claim they do..at least you admit it's beyond proof.

Of course it's beyond proof. The Bible states it is, and states that there will never be definitive proof until the end, and that to non-believers the Bible is "foolishness".

However, it is not moot. Regardless of whether you believe that fire is hot and will burn you doesn't mean it won't when you stick your hand in a flame. This is what people who have a problem with the bible don't get. They think that because it hasn't been proven, it isn't "real" and doesn't matter.

Things are real, even before they're proven. Gravity existed before anyone knew about it. The sun was a big star before anybody proved it. Likewise, the way to Heaven is through Christ, whether you believe it or not. Can't prove it, yet, but that doesn't mean it's any less true.

[Yurt]

is religion more important or is God more important? why do christians have so many "religions"/churches?

[AllieBaba]

God is more important.
However we're supposed to gather together to praise God and commune with each other, to strengthen our faith and resolve. The reason there are so many different churches is because people are different. Half of the NT is Paul preaching to different churches. If there were a variety of churches just a few years after the death of Christ, of course we still have a variety of churches. Different populations of people have different issues and different backgrounds. But according to the Bible, we are all one "church" ultimately, and should look beyond petty differences.

[Yurt]

God is more important.
However we're supposed to gather together to praise God and commune with each other, to strengthen our faith and resolve. The reason there are so many different churches is because people are different. Half of the NT is Paul preaching to different churches. If there were a variety of churches just a few years after the death of Christ, of course we still have a variety of churches. Different populations of people have different issues and different backgrounds. But according to the Bible, we are all one "church" ultimately, and should look beyond petty differences.

ok, but is there one true church?

[Mr. P]

God is more important.
However we're supposed to gather together to praise God and commune with each other, to strengthen our faith and resolve. The reason there are so many different churches is because people are different. Half of the NT is Paul preaching to different churches. If there were a variety of churches just a few years after the death of Christ, of course we still have a variety of churches. Different populations of people have different issues and different backgrounds. But according to the Bible, we are all one "church" ultimately, and should look beyond petty differences.

So, back to a question in the OP..what is the purpose of religion?

[Abbey Marie]

So, back to a question in the OP..what is the purpose of religion?

I can't speak for other religions, but in Christianity, I see "religion" as synonymous with "church".

The purpose of either/both, should be, IMO:

1. Teach the Word of God
2. Help spread the Word of God to all
3. Provide a meeting place for fellowship, worship, support and accountability

[Mr. P]

I can't speak for other religions, but in Christianity, I see "religion" as synonymous with "church".

The purpose of either/both, should be, IMO:

1. Teach the Word of God
2. Help spread the Word of God to all
3. Provide a meeting place for fellowship, worship, support and accountability

Can you address "religion" overall though? What is the purpose?

[Yurt]

I can't speak for other religions, but in Christianity, I see "religion" as synonymous with "church".

The purpose of either/both, should be, IMO:

1. Teach the Word of God
2. Help spread the Word of God to all
3. Provide a meeting place for fellowship, worship, support and accountability

what is the one true church? jesus talks about it.

[diuretic]

what is the one true church? jesus talks about it.

Where is it referenced that He says that? Note - this is not one of those pugnacious, jaw-jutting questions, it's just a simple question because all I remember is Jesus addressing Peter and telling him that he will be the rock on whom Jesus will build his church.

Assuming it's so then the one true church would have to be the Catholic Church as Catholics claim Peter to be the first Bishop of Christ.