Socialism, Marxism, Communism & Obama [Archive] - Debate Policy

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No_Socialism

06-23-2008, 03:09 PM

Does Barack Obama Believe in Socialism, Marxism, and Communism? Does "CHANGE" represent Barack Obama's long term goal of "ISM" for the US? Our Future?

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Why would I ask these questions? This is why:

Part 1 - Obama's Ties to Socialism, Marxism, and Communism

1. Obama's Father Wrote About Socialism - His father wrote a paper called "Problems With Our Socialism" that advocates 100% taxation of the rich, communal ownership of land and the forced confiscation of privately controlled land. <a href="http://gregransom.com/prestopundit/2008/04/gregs-guide-to-barack-obamas-d.html">Source: Greg Ransom, PrestoPundit</a>

2. Obama's Mother Was a "Communist Sympathizer" - " Friends describe her as a "fellow traveler", that is, a communist sympathizer, from her youth, according to a March 27, 2007, Chicago Tribune report"<a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/front_page/jb26aa01.html"> Source: Spengler, Asia Times</a> "The values she taught me continue to be my touchstone when it comes to how I go about the world of politics - Barack Obama" <a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0703270151mar27,0,14968,full.story">Source: Tim Jones, Chicago Tribune</a>

3. Obama's Parents Met in a Russian Class (Back then it was the Communist USSR) - "His mother, Stanley Ann Dunham (her father always wanted a son), was white and just 18 when they met in a Russian class" <a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/politics/story/D506057F8AF59501862573D70007D769?OpenDocument">Source: Sharon Cohen, St Louis Times</a> 

4. Obama's Teen Mentor was Frank Marshall Davis (a known CPUSA member) - "...through Frank Marshall Davis, Obama had an admitted relationship with someone who was publicly identified as a member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA). The record shows that Obama was in Hawaii from 1971-1979, where, at some point in time, he developed a close relationship, almost like a son, with Davis, listening to his poetry and getting advice on his career path. But Obama, in his book, Dreams From My Father, refers to him repeatedly as just Frank." <a href="http://www.aim.org/aim-report/is-barack-obama-a-marxist-mole/">Source: Cliff Kincaid, Accuracy in the Media</a> "Kathryn Takara of the University of Hawaii, who wrote a dissertation on the life of Frank Marshall Davis, confirming Davis was a significant influence on Obama when the senator attended Punahou prep school in Hawaii from 1975 to 1979" <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65066">Source: Jim Corsi, WorldNetDaily</a> based on <a href="http://www.usasurvival.org/docs/hawaii-obama.pdf">Communism in Hawaii and the Obama Connection (Cliff Kincaid and Herbert Romerstein)</a>

5. Obama's Brother Roy and Cousin Odinga are Marxists - "Barack Obama's older brother, Abongo "Roy" Obama. He is a Luo activist. militant Muslim and a Marxist." <a href="http://www.180people.com/2008/May/Barack-Obama-and-the-Marxist-Movement-in-Kenya.htm">Source: Barbara Busby, 180people.com</a> “The person who made me proudest of all,” Obama wrote, “was Roy <a href="http://www.examiner.com/a-534540%7ECan_a_past_of_Islam_change_the_path_to_pr esident_for_Obama_.html">Source: Bill Sammon, The Examiner</a> "Odinga is a Marxist who reportedly has made a pact with a hard-line Islamic group in Kenya to establish Shariah courts throughout the country" <a style="font-family: arial;" href="http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id= 285292746454291">Source: Invenstor's Business Daily</a>

6. Obama Attended Socialist Conferences at Cooper Union - "He went to socialist conferences at Cooper Union and African cultural fairs in Brooklyn and started lecturing his relatives until they worried he'd become "one of those freaks you see on the streets around here." <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/01/14/2007-01-14_obamas_quiet_yrs_in_nyc_pols_rise_stuns_.html">Source: H Kennedy, NY Daily News</a>

7. Obama Was Hand Picked by Alice Palmer to Succeed Her in the Illinois State Senate - "Nine years before Palmer picked Obama to be her successor, she was the only African-American journalist to travel to the Soviet Union to attend the 27th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, according to an article Palmer wrote in the CPUSA newspaper, People's Daily World, June 19, 1986." <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65066">Source: </a><a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65066">Jim Corsi, WorldNetDaily</a> based on <a href="http://www.usasurvival.org/docs/chicago-obama.pdf">Communism in Chicago and the Obama Connection (Cliff Kincaid and Herbert Romerstein)</a>

8. Obama's Run for the Illinois State Senate was Launched by a Fundraiser Organized at Bill Ayers' and Bernardine Dorhn's Chicago Home - Ayers and Dorhn are former terrorists from the Weather Underground who's SDS organization received financial contributions from the CPUSA. "Obama's run for the Illinois state Senate was launched by a fundraiser organized at Ayers' and Dorhn's Chicago home by Alice Palmer. Palmer had named Obama to succeed her in the state Senate in 1995, when she decided to run for a U.S. congressional seat." <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65066">Source: </a><a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65066">Jim Corsi, WorldNetDaily</a> based on <a href="http://www.usasurvival.org/docs/chicago-obama.pdf">Communism in Chicago and the Obama Connection (Cliff Kincaid and Herbert Romerstein)</a>

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9. Obama Had a Close Relationship with the "Anti-Capitalist" Group ACORN - "Obama has had an intimate and long-term association with the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (Acorn)...Chicago Acorn appears to have played a major role in Obama’s political advance...Acorn’s radical agenda sometimes shifts toward “undisguised authoritarian socialism.” <a href="http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDZiMjkwMDczZWI5ODdjOWYxZTIzZGIyNzEyMjE0ODI#mor e">Source: Stanley Kurtz, National Review</a>

10. Obama Attended Several Meetings with the Democratic Socialists in Chicago and Was even Endorsed by Them - "Obama’s socialist backing goes back at least to 1996, when he received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) for an Illinois state senate seat. Later, the Chicago DSA newsletter reported that Obama, as a state senator, showed up to eulogize Saul Mendelson, one of the “champions” of “Chicago’s democratic left” and a long-time socialist activist. Obama’s stint as a “community organizer” in Chicago has gotten some attention, but his relationship with the DSA socialists, who groomed and backed him, has been generally ignored." <a href="http://www.aim.org/aim-report/is-barack-obama-a-marxist-mole/">Source: Cliff Kincaid, Accuracy in the Media</a> "In its broadest sense, democratic socialism could refer to any attempts to bring about socialism through democratic means as opposed to violent insurrection." <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism">Source: Wikipedia</a>

<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp3.blogger.com/_AOdk-xDdPJM/SFKfF3PQPKI/AAAAAAAAAAM/Sp8UIuyguL8/s1600-h/obamasoc.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp3.blogger.com/_AOdk-xDdPJM/SFKfF3PQPKI/AAAAAAAAAAM/Sp8UIuyguL8/s400/obamasoc.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5211402641897176226" border="0" /></a> 11. Obama Endorsed Openly Socialist Senator Bernie Sanders - <a style="font-family: arial;" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIlIpOkRh2A">Video</a> " "Sanders is the first self-described socialist to be elected to the U.S. Senate." <a style="font-family: arial;" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders">Source: Wikipedia</a>

12. Many Obama Supporters Idolize Che Guervara - Obama Campaign Worker Seen With Communist Cuba Flag Depicting Marxist Che Guevara on it. <a href="http://lonestartimes.com/2008/02/13/ocf2/">Source: David Benzion, Lone Star Times</a>

<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp3.blogger.com/_AOdk-xDdPJM/SFKhJ3PQPMI/AAAAAAAAAAc/BiraK2HzCVk/s1600-h/cheobama4.jpeg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp3.blogger.com/_AOdk-xDdPJM/SFKhJ3PQPMI/AAAAAAAAAAc/BiraK2HzCVk/s400/cheobama4.jpeg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5211404909639908546" border="0" /></a><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp3.blogger.com/_AOdk-xDdPJM/SFKhS3PQPNI/AAAAAAAAAAk/TVxXzqghWu0/s1600-h/marisa-and-barack.JPG"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer; width: 286px; height: 214px;" src="http://bp3.blogger.com/_AOdk-xDdPJM/SFKhS3PQPNI/AAAAAAAAAAk/TVxXzqghWu0/s400/marisa-and-barack.JPG" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5211405064258731218" border="0" /></a>
 "Guevara later served as Minister of Industries, in which post he helped formulate Cuban socialism...Guevara played a key role in bringing to Cuba the Soviet nuclear-armed ballistic missiles that precipitated the Cuban Missile Crisis in October 1962. During an interview with the British newspaper Daily Worker some weeks later, he stated that, if the missiles had been under Cuban control, they would have fired them against major U.S. cities." <a style="font-family: arial;" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara">Source: Wikipedia</a>

More "Che" fans from Obama's site:

<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/CjjF" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/CjjF</a>
<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGJKjv" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGJKjv</a>
<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGB5hc" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGB5hc</a>
<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/CLmp" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/CLmp</a>
<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGGMQB" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGGMQB</a>
<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gG5SSr" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gG5SSr</a>
<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/marisela/BV3" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/commu...t/marisela/BV3</a>
<a href="http://illinois.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/CC8v" target="_blank">http://illinois.barackobama .com/pa...rd/public/CC8v</a>
<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gYQqz" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gYQqz</a>
<a href="http://nevada.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGVCjm" target="_blank">http://nevada.barackobama.c om/page.../public/gGVCjm</a>
<a href="http://iowa.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/IowaHQ/CJQ3" target="_blank">http://iowa.barackobama.com /page/c...up/IowaHQ/CJQ3</a>
<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGNXhB" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGNXhB</a>
<a href="http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGv3LW" target="_blank">http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGv3LW</a>

 13. The Communist Party USA Endorsed Obama - "Our Party actively supported Obama during the primary election." <a href="http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/858/1/39/">Source: CPUSA Website</a> (This line has since been removed from the CPUSA website) - <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS278&q=%22Our+Party+ac tively+supported+Obama+during+the+primary+election .%22+communist&btnG=Search">Search for this quote</a>

14. Obama's Church is Rooted in Liberation Theology which is Rooted in Marxism - " The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology" <a href="http://www.tucc.org/talking_points.htm">Source: TUCC Website</a> "Simply put, Liberation Theology is an attempt to interpret Scripture through the plight of the poor. It is largely a humanistic doctrine. It started in South America in the turbulent 1950's when Marxism was making great gains among the poor because of its emphasis on the redistribution of wealth, allowing poor peasants to share in the wealth of the colonial elite and thus upgrade their economic status in life." <a href="http://www.gotquestions.org/liberation-theology.html">Source: gotquestions.org</a>


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15. Obama's Opening Band - The band that opened for Obama's Oregon rally (The Decemberists) is named after an 1825 revolt over the Imperial Russian succession (Decembrist revolt) that Meloy views as an attempted communist revolution. They also open many of their shows by playing the Soviet National Anthem... <a href="http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/communists-for-obama/">Source: Oleg Atbashian, Pajamasmedia</a>

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The Decemberists performing the Soviet National Anthem:

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<a style="font-family: arial;" href="http://www.usasurvival.org/obama.briefing.html">Watch this press briefing by America's Survival on Obama's Communist Connections Presented by Cliff Kincaid, Herbert Romerstein, Trevor Loudon, and Max Friedman </a>

Part 2 - Barack and Michelle's Socialist, Marxist, and Communist Quotes

 "They don't want the whole pie," she told the women. "There are some who do, but most Americans feel blessed just being able to thrive a little bit. But that is becoming even more out of reach. If we don't wake up as a nation with a new kind of leadership, for how we want this country to work, then we won't get universal health care. The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more."
 - Michelle Obama

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 "So we're going to provide a $4,000 tuition credit, every student, every year, but, students, you're going to have to give back something in return. You're going to have to participate in community service. You're going to have to work in a homeless shelter, or a veteran's home, or an underserved school, or join the Peace Corps." - Barack Obama

So he wants to make "every student, every year" an employee of the state? And is this another step towards socializing higher education? 

 "And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns, or religion, or antipathy to people who aren’t like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment, or anti-trade sentiments as a way to explain their frustrations" - Barack Obama

Karl Marx famously claimed that religion was an opiate of the masses. He was explaining his view that the wealthy bourgeoise cynically used religion as a device to keep the poor, simple proletariat happy in their misery and squalor so they would find it immoral to rise up and overthrow their capitalists oppressors.

<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="http://bp0.blogger.com/_AOdk-xDdPJM/SFK7eHPQPRI/AAAAAAAAABE/zNwYqHiY38k/s1600-h/obama-marx.jpg"><img style="margin: 0px auto 10px; display: block; text-align: center; cursor: pointer;" src="http://bp0.blogger.com/_AOdk-xDdPJM/SFK7eHPQPRI/AAAAAAAAABE/zNwYqHiY38k/s400/obama-marx.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5211433844834581778" border="0" /></a>"We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times ... and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK," - Barack Obama

Hmm, is this quote for Marxist or Fascist? I can't decide... 

 "It’s because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation." - Barack Obama 

"The great task before our founders was putting into practice the ideal that government could simultaneously serve liberty and advance the common good. and Government, he believed, had an important role to play in advancing our common prosperity." - Barack Obama

Collective? Common prosperity? "the ultimate goal of socialism is common prosperity" <a href="http://www.cpim.org/marxist/200102_marxist_deng_yang.htm">Source: Yang Chungui, The Marxist</a>

 "I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets." - Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)

"Political discussions, the kind at Occidental had once seemed so intense and purposeful, came to take on the flavor of the socialist conferences I sometimes attended at Cooper Union" - Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)

Nothing more to say here...

 "Well, Charlie, what I’ve said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness." - Barack Obama

No, not because it would increase revenue, but for "fairness". Yes that's right...punish success...

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Part 3 - Obama's Platform

Comparing Barack Obama to Self Described Socialist Bernie Sanders on socialism related policies:

<table style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="2" bordercolor="#111111" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <th><a href="http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm">Barack Obama (ontheissues.org)
</a></th> <th>Self Described Socialist <a href="http://senate.ontheissues.org/Senate/Bernie_Sanders.htm">Bernie Sanders (ontheissues.org)
</a></th> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Favors topic 5:
<a href="http://www.ontheissues.org/VoteMatch/q8_2006.asp">More federal funding for health coverage</a>
(-3 points on Economic scale) </td> <td valign="top">Strongly Favors topic 5:
<a href="http://www.ontheissues.org/VoteMatch/q8_2006.asp">More federal funding for health coverage</a>
(-5 points on Economic scale) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Strongly Opposes topic 6:
<a href="http://www.ontheissues.org/VoteMatch/q9_2006.asp">Privatize Social Security</a>
(-5 points on Economic scale) </td> <td valign="top">Strongly Opposes topic 6:
<a href="http://www.ontheissues.org/VoteMatch/q9_2006.asp">Privatize Social Security</a>
(-5 points on Economic scale) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Strongly Favors topic 11:
<a href="http://www.ontheissues.org/VoteMatch/q14_2006.asp">Make taxes more progressive</a>
(-5 points on Economic scale) </td> <td valign="top">Strongly Favors topic 11:
<a href="http://www.ontheissues.org/VoteMatch/q14_2006.asp">Make taxes more progressive</a>
(-5 points on Economic scale)</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Barack Obama was rated as the #1 most liberal senator in 2007 (even ahead of Bernie Sanders!) - " Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings." <a href="http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/">Source: Brian Friel, Richard E. Cohen and Kirk Victor, National Journal</a>

Commentary on Barack Obama's Economic Policies - "Among other things, he is concerned about the "winner-take-all" economy where, he says, "the gains from economic growth skew heavily toward the wealthy." Actually, the gains from economic growth can skew toward anyone willing to work hard and make personal and family decisions that improve their chances for success. This is boilerplate wealth redistribution, an economic philosophy at the center of the former Soviet Union. Obama and Democrats wish to embrace it now in order to make more people dependent on government, rather than encourage people to rely on themselves and the opportunity America offers to most citizens, even illegal aliens. Guaranteed equal outcome is socialism. America was built on and sustained by a "can do" spirit. Today, too many are taught a "can't do" spirit. They are told that because of factors over which they have no control -- race, class, poverty -- it is impossible for them to do anything for themselves and so they must increasingly rely on government. Government doesn't cure poverty." <a href="http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080619/OPINION04/806190346/">Source: Cal Thomas via pressdemocrat</a>

About Obama's Health Care Plan - "the costs would be staggering" <a href="http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/01/experts_doubt_obamas_healthcar.html">Source: </a><a href="http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/01/experts_doubt_obamas_healthcar.html">Stuart Butler via William Neikirk, The Swamp</a>

 "One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project, most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it." - Ronald Reagan - <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs">Video</a>

More Coming Soon...

Part 4 - Why is "ISM" so bad anyway?

#1 Reason - LOSS OF FREEDOM! A simple cartoon on the dangers of "ISM"

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Ronald Reagan explains in this <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=angbZB2WeMQ">VIDEO</a> why capitalism is more productive than socialism

Hugo Chavez' socialist policies were to blame for oppression in Venezuela - "Food shortages are plaguing the country at the same time that oil revenues are driving a spending splurge on imported luxury goods, prompting criticism of President Hugo Chávez's socialist policies...Milk has all but vanished from shops...Families say eggs and sugar are also a memory...Government price controls on staple foods are so low that producers cannot make a profit" <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/14/venezuela.international">Source: Rory Carroll, The Guardian</a>

More Coming Soon...

Protect the FREEDOM that our brave soldiers have fought and died for for over 200 years!

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If you have any more to add, please comment and post it!

Other Obama Fact Finding Websites & Blogs:
<a href="http://obamawtf.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Obama WTF</a>
<a href="http://www.aim.org/">Accuracy in the Media</a>
<a href="http://www.usasurvival.org/">America's Survival</a>
<a href="http://attackmachine.com/blog/category/obama/" target="_blank">Attack Machine</a>
<a href="http://thebigfeed.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Big Feed</a>
<a href="http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/016946.php" target="_blank">Captain's Quarters</a>
<a href="http://contrariancommentary.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Contrarian Commentary</a>
<a href="http://www.dontvoteobama.net/" target="_blank">Dont Vote Obama</a>
<a href="http://exposeobama.com/" target="_blank">Expose Obama</a>
<a href="http://investigatebarackobama.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Investigate Obama</a>
<a href="http://jewagainstobama.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Jews against Obama</a>
<a href="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/" target="_blank">Little Green Footballs</a>
<a href="http://meetbarackobama.com/" target="_blank">Meet Barack Obama</a>
<a href="http://www.obamablog08.com/" target="_blank">Obama Blog 08</a>
<a href="http://obamology.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Obama Watch</a>
<a href="http://obamawho.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">Obama Who?</a>
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Joe Steel

06-23-2008, 06:15 PM

Does Barack Obama Believe in Socialism, Marxism, and Communism?

Let's hope so.

Nukeman

06-23-2008, 06:41 PM

Let's hope so.Why is that what you want????

Do you really think anyone in this current or any subsequent government can take care of you better.....

April15

06-23-2008, 09:36 PM

Any kind of change from what we have endured for the last 7 years has to be better than what we have gotten from Bushco!

Gaffer

06-23-2008, 10:25 PM

Any kind of change from what we have endured for the last 7 years has to be better than what we have gotten from Bushco!

What exactly have you endured?

Joe Steel

06-24-2008, 07:18 AM

Why is that what you want????

Do you really think anyone in this current or any subsequent government can take care of you better.....

Socialism is not about a government which can "take care" of it's citizens from cradle to grave, the conservative "nanny state." Socialism is about creating public policy which recognizes the maldistribution of ability and opportunity and attempts to help citizens overcome them.

diuretic

06-24-2008, 07:32 AM

Dilloduck

06-24-2008, 07:47 AM

Joe Steel

06-24-2008, 07:55 AM

Please tell me you're joking.

I'm not.

AFbombloader

06-24-2008, 07:56 AM

Socialism is not about a government which can "take care" of it's citizens from cradle to grave, the conservative "nanny state." Socialism is about creating public policy which recognizes the maldistribution of ability and opportunity and attempts to help citizens overcome them.

http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/Socialism.html

snip-

Socialism—defined as a centrally planned economy in which the government controls all means of production—was the tragic failure of the twentieth century. Born of a commitment to remedy the economic and moral defects of capitalism, it has far surpassed capitalism in both economic malfunction and moral cruelty. Yet the idea and the ideal of socialism linger on.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

IMHO, your definition needed some clarification. Socialism is about taking control of all property away from you and me and putting it under the control of the government. It would also take all means of production, so all industry is gone too. You want that? If you do, there are plenty of places in the world to go get that. I will help anyone pack their things and move.I don't want it here.

AF:salute:

GW in Ohio

06-24-2008, 07:59 AM

AFbombloader

06-24-2008, 08:11 AM

Dear Thread Parent (No_Socialism): Could I give you a little friendly advice?

When you start a discussion that attempts to brand the Democratic candidate as a communist, you identify yourself as one of those way-out, around-the-bend right wingers who sits in front of his computer wearing a tinfoil hat to prevent alien radio waves from reaching his brain.

Oh, I know you'll get support and affirmation from Debate Policy's resident right wingers, but consider the source, dude......

Did you see anything in his post that wasn't directly quoted from Obama or someone close to him? I am usually not one of the tin foil hat wearers:tinfoil: but these did make me want look into this more closely. I do not plan on voting for Obama, but not for these issues, but I will add them to the list.

AF:salute:

GW in Ohio

06-24-2008, 08:30 AM

glockmail

06-24-2008, 08:43 AM

What is really funny and I mean really hilarious, is the idea that one man, even if he were elected president, could bring socialism to America. There's a sense of hysteria in this thread which is both amusing and sad, but above both of those the word "ridiculous" comes to mind. Actually it is one man, George Bush, who is standing in the way of it. Aren't you aware that both houses of Congress are lead by the extreme Left?

glockmail

06-24-2008, 08:45 AM

AFbombloader: Let's use a little common sense here......

When candidates from the two major parties get their parties' nomination they move toward the center.

That's not a move that's just for show, either. No American president can govern while pursuing a radical left or right agenda. There are too many checks and balances, from the Congress, the media, etc.

Even Reagan, our most conservative president in recent memory, was forced to make concessions to the Democrats in Congress, most notably on government spending and entitlement programs.

Obama is nowhere near a socialist, let along a communist. To suggest that he is, or even that he has socialist tendencies or sympathies, is to brand yourself as a right wing wacko. Per usual you are confused.

Although you are correct that candidates in this phase of the election move toward the center, Obama's center is clearly far-left, meaning that his true self is extreme left, meaning socialist.

AFbombloader

06-24-2008, 08:55 AM

AFbombloader: Let's use a little common sense here......

When candidates from the two major parties get their parties' nomination they move toward the center.

That's not a move that's just for show, either. No American president can govern while pursuing a radical left or right agenda. There are too many checks and balances, from the Congress, the media, etc.

Even Reagan, our most conservative president in recent memory, was forced to make concessions to the Democrats in Congress, most notably on government spending and entitlement programs.

Obama is nowhere near a socialist, let along a communist. To suggest that he is, or even that he has socialist tendencies or sympathies, is to brand yourself as a right wing wacko.

Great idea, lets use common sence. Read the post and answer my question. Did he apply ANY quotes that were not made by Obama? And, if looked at through glasses colored by a socialist tint, do they not all apply? I didn't make the coments, and I am not saying he is a socialist. But if it quacks like a duck.........you know the rest.

AF:salute:

Joe Steel

06-24-2008, 10:15 AM

IMHO, your definition needed some clarification. Socialism is about taking control of all property away from you and me and putting it under the control of the government. It would also take all means of production, so all industry is gone too. You want that? If you do, there are plenty of places in the world to go get that. I will help anyone pack their things and move.I don't want it here.

You're wrong.

Democratic Socialists of America (http://www.dsausa.org/about/index.html)

No_Socialism

06-24-2008, 11:00 AM

You're wrong.

Democratic Socialists of America (http://www.dsausa.org/about/index.html)

The goal of the Democratic Socialists is to move the USA towards Socialism via democratic means (as opposed to violent insurrection). Having a candidate like Obama get elected may be of great help to their goals...

Read:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Private corporations seem to be a permanent fixture in the US, so why work towards socialism?

In the short term we can’t eliminate private corporations, but we can bring them under greater democratic control.

http://www.dsausa.org/pdf/widemsoc.pdf
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if they say that in the short term they cannot eliminate private corporations, what does that say about the long term? Also, "greater democratic control" means more state control of corporations via regulations and taxation. That is their plan for the short term.

Nukeman

06-24-2008, 12:15 PM

The goal of the Democratic Socialists is to move the USA towards Socialism via democratic means (as opposed to violent insurrection). Having a candidate like Obama get elected may be of great help to their goals...

Read:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Private corporations seem to be a permanent fixture in the US, so why work towards socialism?

In the short term we can’t eliminate private corporations, but we can bring them under greater democratic control.

http://www.dsausa.org/pdf/widemsoc.pdf
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if they say that in the short term they cannot eliminate private corporations, what does that say about the long term? Also, "greater democratic control" means more state control of corporations via regulations and taxation. That is their plan for the short term.Your beating a dead horse with JOE. He has his own little thoughts and that is it. He tells the rest of us that we are just too stupid to know anything and too closed minded to even learn, yet he refuses to EVER see an alternate viewpoint or even concede when he has lost an argument.

I especialy like it when he DEMANDS that we find a source for him yet tells the rest of us "he isn't doing our homework for us" when asked to reciprocate.. He is an ass plain and simple.....

April15

06-24-2008, 12:27 PM

What exactly have you endured?If you have to ask you weren't paying attention or you have plenty of money.

No_Socialism

06-24-2008, 01:04 PM

If you have to ask you weren't paying attention or you have plenty of money.

Now the question is, how has a Bush presidency impacted YOUR LIFE PERSONALLY? It can get a lot worse, trust me...

Personally I am better off than I was 8 years ago. That may not be true for everybody but I can honestly say that Bush has not impacted ME PERSONALLY in a negative way at all. Now when Obama starts redistributing your wealth and mine and lowering our quality of life, that WILL IMPACT ME AND YOU PERSONALLY. As a father and a husband, I sell HELL NO to that. Get Obama and his Marxist crap the heck out of here!!!

crin63

06-24-2008, 01:42 PM

Is Joe Steel a Union Ironworker?

April15

06-24-2008, 04:27 PM

glockmail

06-24-2008, 04:33 PM

I am not any better off and might be worse off than 7 years ago. With the lack of oversight of the financial industry the entire nation is in economic trouble. With the oil and auto industries in cahoots with this administration it is no wonder there is no viable research into alternative energy.
The quality of life in this nation has been going down for the better part of a decade. Fewer people control more of the money and more people are at their mercy for earning wages.
I would like a little inflation as it would make it easier to pay bills with cheaper money!

You ain't carrying your weight then.

Back in the 70's when we had the last oil price shock things were truly bad. Almost everyone stopped driving. You don't see that today.

AFbombloader

06-24-2008, 05:06 PM

You're wrong.

Democratic Socialists of America (http://www.dsausa.org/about/index.html)

No I'm not. You gave a link to a specific organization that is not totally socialist. Look back at the definitions I gave and you will see I am correct. If we were saying Obama was a member of the organization you mentioned you would have a point, but you don't.

aF:salute:

April15

06-24-2008, 08:24 PM

You ain't carrying your weight then.

Back in the 70's when we had the last oil price shock things were truly bad. Almost everyone stopped driving. You don't see that today.The 70's were a piece of cake compared to this crap.

glockmail

06-25-2008, 07:12 AM

The 70's were a piece of cake compared to this crap.
You are obvously too young to have lived through it.

GW in Ohio

06-25-2008, 08:21 AM

Now the question is, how has a Bush presidency impacted YOUR LIFE PERSONALLY? It can get a lot worse, trust me...

Personally I am better off than I was 8 years ago. That may not be true for everybody but I can honestly say that Bush has not impacted ME PERSONALLY in a negative way at all. Now when Obama starts redistributing your wealth and mine and lowering our quality of life, that WILL IMPACT ME AND YOU PERSONALLY. As a father and a husband, I sell HELL NO to that. Get Obama and his Marxist crap the heck out of here!!!

The Bush presidency has embarrassed me personally. To have a clown that stupid represent your country to the rest of the world is embarrassing.

The Bush invasion of Iraq, with its implicit assumption of: "We can do whatever the fuck we want....we're Americans. And if you don't like it, maybe we'll nuke you back into stone age" made me ashamed to be an American.

While I'm no politician, even I know that most of our problems with the Muslim world stem from the arrogant attitude exemplified by Bush and Cheney and their team of idiots.

I'm paying about 3 times as much for gas now as when Bush took office. He has done nothing to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

He has also done nothing about the environmental crisis that is threatening the entire world. Even if you're one of those people who sticks his head in the sand and questions or denies the reality of global warming, we still have very serious environmental problems resulting from air and water pollution and overpopulation. The American president should be championing birth control in undeveloped countries. But instead, Bush is doing his pro-life song and dance.

I want to have a president who is an actual leader, instead of a clueless idiot.

I look forward to the end of the Bush presidency. It's been a sorry chapter in the history of this country.

Nukeman

06-25-2008, 08:58 AM

The Bush presidency has embarrassed me personally. To have a clown that stupid represent your country to the rest of the world is embarrassing.

The Bush invasion of Iraq, with its implicit assumption of: "We can do whatever the fuck we want....we're Americans. And if you don't like it, maybe we'll nuke you back into stone age" made me ashamed to be an American.. If this were even remotely true we wouldn't still be in Iraq. We would have "nuked them back ito the stone age"

While I'm no politician, even I know that most of our problems with the Muslim world stem from the arrogant attitude exemplified by Bush and Cheney and their team of idiots.
You obviously do not understand the Mid-East at all, you are talking about an area of the world that is completely MALE driven and is not interested in democracy in its curent form. They have been living in a constant state of "he has the biggest gun wins" mentality for thousands of years and continue to do so. They also have an illiteracy rate of ~40% so the "average" person over there doesn't even know better. They understand heavy handedness and thats about it. If you approach them with a carrot they look at you as if yor weak. Weakness is BAD!!!

I'm paying about 3 times as much for gas now as when Bush took office. He has done nothing to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

I am paying 4 times as much for my home owners insurance why isn't the government doing something to protect me from natural disasters. This oil problem has been in the works for decades this is not somehting new. You have a strong Arab presence that would love to see our economy ruined.

He has also done nothing about the environmental crisis that is threatening the entire world. Even if you're one of those people who sticks his head in the sand and questions or denies the reality of global warming, we still have very serious environmental problems resulting from air and water pollution and overpopulation.

What would you have him do??? he can not force his will on other countries and the US is already pretty darn good ad policing our own environmental inpact, we can not very well tell other countries to use the same standards we do because they tell us it "cost too much"

As for over poplulation why don't you go talk to the leaders of China and India after all they have almost half of the worlds populations between them well maybe a little more than a third. Still Huge numbers of people that continue to grow. On the other hand the US and other developed European countries are barely at replacement or are below replacement levels. So once again what would have him do or what would you do for that matter

The American president should be championing birth control in undeveloped countries. But instead, Bush is doing his pro-life song and dance.
There is a BIG difference between "birth control" and "pro life". these are not exclusive trains of thought. Just because someone does not agree with abortion does not mean they are against birth control. In fact I am quite sure most would rather the pregnancy never take place than have conception than abortion. dontcha think?????

I want to have a president who is an actual leader, instead of a clueless idiot.
For him being a "clueless idiot" the European Union leaders are following his lead on Iran and many other major issues in the world. So what does that make all of them "stupid blind sheep"

I look forward to the end of the Bush presidency. It's been a sorry chapter in the history of this countryI have to say I agree with you to a certain extent, that being said I do not think we would have faired any better with the likes of Kerry and Edwards.

glockmail

06-25-2008, 09:12 AM

.... I know that most of our problems with the Muslim world stem from the arrogant attitude exemplified by Bush and Cheney and their team of idiots.....

Actually Arabs respect those who show strength and disrespect those who show weakness- like you and Jimmy Carter. So as usual the opposite of what you claim is true.

MtnBiker

06-25-2008, 09:16 AM

What is really funny and I mean really hilarious, is the idea that one man, even if he were elected president, could bring socialism to America. There's a sense of hysteria in this thread which is both amusing and sad, but above both of those the word "ridiculous" comes to mind.

You must have the same response to similar attitudes that some people display toward Bush.

DragonStryk72

06-25-2008, 01:18 PM

Ah yes, a whole bunch of pundits got together and have articles that are uncomplimentary to Obama oh...yes.... you... have... him... now... :rolleyes:

Your arguments are sad, pathetic excuses made because you can find no better argument.

No one man can POSSIBLY bring socialism to the USA, it can only be achieved by a majority of her people deciding they want it, which won't happen.

Move the fuck on, and quit the fatalistic coward arguments that he's a secret communist, or secret muslim, or secret christian extremist, cause I really don't want to get to the point where it gets to, "and he's a secret Mormon!". These arguments are without merit, or any responsible backing.

No_Socialism

06-25-2008, 04:07 PM

Ah yes, a whole bunch of pundits got together and have articles that are uncomplimentary to Obama oh...yes.... you... have... him... now... :rolleyes:

Your arguments are sad, pathetic excuses made because you can find no better argument.

The post is to inform. Were you aware of all of this info?

No one man can POSSIBLY bring socialism to the USA, it can only be achieved by a majority of her people deciding they want it, which won't happen.

Well we may have a Democratic congress next year there to rubber stamp all of Obama's policies. People like Maxine Walters who wanted to nationalize all of the oil companies...

Move the fuck on, and quit the fatalistic coward arguments that he's a secret communist, or secret muslim, or secret christian extremist, cause I really don't want to get to the point where it gets to, "and he's a secret Mormon!". These arguments are without merit, or any responsible backing.

Hmm, that's not nice... I never called him a muslim or a secret Christian extremist. And I'm only implying that his communist connections need to be looked into.

Judging from your sig I guess you're a libertarian. So you should REALLY care if Obama has commie connections because Communism is about the polar opposite of libertarianism.

April15

06-25-2008, 08:25 PM

You are obvously too young to have lived through it.What makes you think that?

glockmail

06-26-2008, 08:26 AM

What makes you think that?
Because in the 70's we had high prices, gas rationing, long lines, inflation at about 14%, high unemployment, and the Iramians has American hostages. What we have now is high prices and a bunch of whiney liberals complaining about how bad things are (wishful thinking on their part).

No_Socialism

06-26-2008, 08:32 AM

Because in the 70's we had high prices, gas rationing, long lines, inflation at about 14%, high unemployment, and the Iramians has American hostages. What we have now is high prices and a bunch of whiney liberals complaining about how bad things are (wishful thinking on their part).

It's amazing that hardly any of the Bush haters have had their lives personally affected by what Bush has done. Instead they complain about things they have seen on the news... Makes you say hmm....

No doubt that Obama's wealth redistribution policies would hit a lot of us in the wallet...hard!

diuretic

06-26-2008, 08:38 AM

You must have the same response to similar attitudes that some people display toward Bush.

Why?

No_Socialism

06-26-2008, 10:25 AM

The Communist Party USA Basically Endorses Obama HERE (http://cpusaelections.blogspot.com/2008/06/i-read-with-interest-recent-article-by.html)

April15

06-26-2008, 06:52 PM

Because in the 70's we had high prices, gas rationing, long lines, inflation at about 14%, high unemployment, and the Iramians has American hostages. What we have now is high prices and a bunch of whiney liberals complaining about how bad things are (wishful thinking on their part).Well I'm 59 years old. The seventies were a cake walk compared to this crap. For one thing inflation kept wages going higher along with the prices of food. As for the long lines I worked a farm at that time and had an exemption from rationing.
As for the hostages they were being held for repayment by the us for all the oil we did not pay for from the 50's until the fall of the shah.

Kathianne

06-26-2008, 06:55 PM

Well I'm 59 years old. The seventies were a cake walk compared to this crap. For one thing inflation kept wages going higher along with the prices of food. As for the long lines I worked a farm at that time and had an exemption from rationing.
As for the hostages they were being held for repayment by the us for all the oil we did not pay for from the 50's until the fall of the shah.

Sorry, but I was in college during the 70's and I know that wasn't a 'cakewalk'. I'm in worse financial position now, but am in a better position to deal with what comes, than my folks were then.

You are either lying or your circumstances have changed beyond the norm.

April15

06-26-2008, 07:03 PM

Sorry, but I was in college during the 70's and I know that wasn't a 'cakewalk'. I'm in worse financial position now, but am in a better position to deal with what comes, than my folks were then.

You are either lying or your circumstances have changed beyond the norm.I am close to losing my house and am out of work. The reason is simple, I became a contractor and set my nest egg up in my house. With houses not being built or sold at a normal rate it has killed my business and most all of my competetors business' as well.

Kathianne

06-26-2008, 08:00 PM

I am close to losing my house and am out of work. The reason is simple, I became a contractor and set my nest egg up in my house. With houses not being built or sold at a normal rate it has killed my business and most all of my competetors business' as well.

So you gambled and lost. Cholces, certainly. I chose in the past year, to pay down my debt and lesson my expenditures. It was near 90 today, no ac. Yes, whole house fan and blinds closed.

I run both the washer and dishwasher when full. No extra lighting.

Buy fruits and veggies in season, this year is hard, no bargains.

April15

06-26-2008, 08:30 PM

So you gambled and lost. Cholces, certainly. I chose in the past year, to pay down my debt and lesson my expenditures. It was near 90 today, no ac. Yes, whole house fan and blinds closed.

I run both the washer and dishwasher when full. No extra lighting.

Buy fruits and veggies in season, this year is hard, no bargains.I still have a chance. I am changing from construction to driver or manager. I got a ton of apps out.

Kathianne

06-26-2008, 08:33 PM

I still have a chance. I am changing from construction to driver or manager. I got a ton of apps out.

Seriously, good luck. We must all take responsibility though, our wrong choices do not make a problem for others, as much as it might be great to be bailed out.

April15

06-26-2008, 09:01 PM

Seriously, good luck. We must all take responsibility though, our wrong choices do not make a problem for others, as much as it might be great to be bailed out.Thanks!

glockmail

06-27-2008, 07:08 AM

I am close to losing my house and am out of work. The reason is simple, I became a contractor and set my nest egg up in my house. With houses not being built or sold at a normal rate it has killed my business and most all of my competetors business' as well.
I'm sorry that you gambled and lost, but you can't blame Bush for your present situation. I myself bought a piece of property with two other guys with the intention of splitting it in two and building two houses. Luckily we all got too busy to bother with it, and the small investment in land hasn't hurt us one bit. It may actually be a good time for us to build, except that all the subcontractors we know are still very busy. None of us, however, would have leveraged our personal property against this project.

AFbombloader

06-27-2008, 11:33 AM

Nukeman

06-27-2008, 12:20 PM

I am actually scared for the first time in my adult life. But it realy has nothing to do with Bush or the congress, if you boil it down. I am leaving the Air Force after 20 years and will be venturing out into the civilian job market. I am actually really worried. I know in my heart I am qualified to do a lot of jobs, but I will be testing the job market for the first time. I understand the insecurity that comes along with the situaiton you are in with your business. I hope we are both in better situations in the very near future.

AF:salute:AF, the wife and I just had this very conversation with your wife last night, We know you will do fine and remember we will help out with your transition as much as possible. We look forward to seeing you in a few weeks. Take care and "Don't worry so much" you will be fine......:slap:

AFbombloader

06-27-2008, 09:22 PM

AF, the wife and I just had this very conversation with your wife last night, We know you will do fine and remember we will help out with your transition as much as possible. We look forward to seeing you in a few weeks. Take care and "Don't worry so much" you will be fine......:slap:

Thanks Nuke, I know. You and a lot of other people have all said the same thing. But this is a huge step. And it is probibly the worst time to do this, with the way the economy is. But I have faith this is the right thing to do.

I look frward to seeing you and the wife too. I don't know if we will get any camping in, but we will definantly see you guys.

AF:salute: