Philly Inquirer: No 4th For You, America is Evil,

[red states rule]

Once again, the liberal media is showing their contempt for America just in time for the 4th of July holiday


Chris Satullo: A not-so-glorious Fourth
U.S. atrocities are unworthy of our heritage

Put the fireworks in storage.
Cancel the parade.

Tuck the soaring speeches in a drawer for another time.

This year, America doesn't deserve to celebrate its birthday. This Fourth of July should be a day of quiet and atonement.

For we have sinned.

We have failed to pay attention. We've settled for lame excuses. We've spit on the memory of those who did that brave, brave thing in Philadelphia 232 years ago.

The America those men founded should never torture a prisoner.

The America they founded should never imprison people for years without charge or hearing.

The America they founded should never ship prisoners to foreign lands, knowing their new jailers might torture them.

Such abuses once were committed by the arrogant crowns of Europe, spawning rebellion.

Today, our nation does such things in the name of our safety. Petrified, unwilling to take the risks that love of liberty demands, we close our eyes.

We have done such things, on orders from the Oval Office. We have done them, without general outrage or shame.

Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo. CIA secret prisons. "Rendition" of prisoners to foreign torture chambers.

It's not enough that we had good reason to be scared.

The men huddled long ago in Philadelphia had better reason. A British fleet floated off the Jersey coast, full of hands eager to hang them from the nearest lampposts.

Yet they pledged their lives and sacred honor - no idle vow - to defend the "inalienable rights" of men. Inalienable - what does that signify? It means rights that belong to each person, simply by virtue of being human. Rights that can never be taken away, no matter what evil a person might do or might intend.

Surely one of those is the right not to be tortured. Surely that is a piece of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

This is the creed of July 4: No matter what it costs us, no matter how it scares us, no matter how foolish it seems to a cynical world, America should stand up for human rights.

for the complete article
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20080701_Chris_Satullo__A_not-so-glorious_Fourth.html

[5stringJeff]

Well, if we're going to start respecting liberty all of a sudden, how about the right to keep and bear arms? How about the right to be secure in your person and belongings, unless an executive officer gets a judicial warrant? How about the right to speak freely through the election process, instead of being silenced about the people you want to throw out of office? How about the right of protection against a government who would steal your property without just compensation? How about the right to live without fear or concern of "domestic surveilance?"
I certainly disagree that we should "cancel" the 4th of July. Instead, we should use it to remember what courage it took to declare our independence from tyranny, and then turn around and show the same courage to protect those liberties that were given to us by the Founding generation.

[mundame]

This Fourth of July should be a day of quiet and atonement.

For we have sinned.

The America those men founded should never torture a prisoner.

The America they founded should never imprison people for years without charge or hearing.


Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo. CIA secret prisons. "Rendition" of prisoners to foreign torture chambers.

...rights that belong to each person, simply by virtue of being human. Rights that can never be taken away, no matter what evil a person might do or might intend.

Surely one of those is the right not to be tortured. Surely that is a piece of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

This is the creed of July 4: No matter what it costs us, no matter how it scares us, no matter how foolish it seems to a cynical world, America should stand up for human rights.



I entirely agree with this.

I supported this war and this president until I found out about the torture, starting in May 2004, one of the most disillusioning times of my life.

Torture is not American. I disclaim a government that behaves as ours has.

I agree that this is a Fourth of quiet and atonement; that's how we plan to spend it. The fun has gone out of the Fourth, because it's impossible to be proud of a failing America as it is failing and divided now.

I AM proud of that editorial writer: he did a good job of expressing how a lot of people feel, from that center of American patriotism once, Philadelphia.

[red states rule]

I entirely agree with this.

I supported this war and this president until I found out about the torture, starting in May 2004, one of the most disillusioning times of my life.

Torture is not American. I disclaim a government that behaves as ours has.

I agree that this is a Fourth of quiet and atonement; that's how we plan to spend it. The fun has gone out of the Fourth, because it's impossible to be proud of a failing America as it is failing and divided now.

I AM proud of that editorial writer: he did a good job of expressing how a lot of people feel, from that center of American patriotism once, Philadelphia.

What torture? The US Constitution protects the rights of US citizens, not foreign terrorists

[5stringJeff]

What torture? The US Constitution protects the rights of US citizens, not foreign terrorists

Waterboarding (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/), to start with.

[mundame]

What torture? The US Constitution protects the rights of US citizens, not foreign terrorists


If you are trying to claim there WAS no torture, that ship has long since sailed.

[stephanie]

How utterly STUPID..that writer should move from this gawd awful country, that he seems to hate so much.
no one would care, or miss his gawd awful writing.

:salute:

[red states rule]

Waterboarding (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/), to start with.

For the record, it has been shown only 3 terrorists were ever waterboarded. All 3 cracked in less then 1 minute. They all gave info that prevented future attacks

I believe it has been about 2 years since anyone was waterboarded

[red states rule]

If you are trying to claim there WAS no torture, that ship has long since sailed.

Lsat I checked no terrorist had his/her head cut off, or sliced and diced for the entertainment of their captives - as the terrorists do to their captives

[5stringJeff]

For the record, it has been shown only 3 terrorists were ever waterboarded. All 3 cracked in less then 1 minute. They all gave info that prevented future attacks

I believe it has been about 2 years since anyone was waterboarded

That still does not change the fact that it is torture.

[mundame]

Lsat I checked no terrorist had his/her head cut off, or sliced and diced for the entertainment of their captives - as the terrorists do to their captives


Muslim terrorists are a bad lot, no question.

I recommend Vantage Point, the new DVD is out. Very anti-terrorist movie for Hollywood, good for them.

And we win.

[red states rule]

That still does not change the fact that it is torture.

I do not consider it torture. The terrorists are fine afterwards with no lasting effects

How would you get the info that stopped attacks and saved lives?

[mundame]

How would you get the info that stopped attacks and saved lives?


There's no reason to suppose that ever happened.

The CIA and Army just tortured the hell out of people because they enjoyed doing it. Our guys were the bad guys: there it is.

[glockmail]

Waterboarding (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/), to start with.
Fraternety prank. :lame2:

[5stringJeff]

I do not consider it torture. The terrorists are fine afterwards with no lasting effects

How would you get the info that stopped attacks and saved lives?

Did you read the link I posted? Do you understand exactly what waterboarding is? This guy was actually waterboarded, in training, so he knows more than most what exactly it entails. It is, in fact and deed, torture, and for the US to have used it in any interrogation is wrong, morally and legally (since we are bound by the Geneva conventions).

[Kathianne]

Waterboarding (http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/), to start with.

Why I like Hitchens, in spite of his agnosticism. He allowed himself to be waterboarded, acknowledges he didn't fair well, even the SECOND time. Yet, he ends with both pov:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808


...The team who agreed to give me a hard time in the woods of North Carolina belong to a highly honorable group. This group regards itself as out on the front line in defense of a society that is too spoiled and too ungrateful to appreciate those solid, underpaid volunteers who guard us while we sleep. These heroes stay on the ramparts at all hours and in all weather, and if they make a mistake they may be arraigned in order to scratch some domestic political itch. Faced with appalling enemies who make horror videos of torture and beheadings, they feel that they are the ones who confront denunciation in our press, and possible prosecution. As they have just tried to demonstrate to me, a man who has been waterboarded may well emerge from the experience a bit shaky, but he is in a mood to surrender the relevant information and is unmarked and undamaged and indeed ready for another bout in quite a short time. When contrasted to actual torture, waterboarding is more like foreplay. No thumbscrew, no pincers, no electrodes, no rack. Can one say this of those who have been captured by the tormentors and murderers of (say) Daniel Pearl? On this analysis, any call to indict the United States for torture is therefore a lame and diseased attempt to arrive at a moral equivalence between those who defend civilization and those who exploit its freedoms to hollow it out, and ultimately to bring it down. I myself do not trust anybody who does not clearly understand this viewpoint.

Against it, however, I call as my main witness Mr. Malcolm Nance. Mr. Nance is not what you call a bleeding heart. In fact, speaking of the coronary area, he has said that, in battlefield conditions, he “would personally cut bin Laden’s heart out with a plastic M.R.E. spoon.” He was to the fore on September 11, 2001, dealing with the burning nightmare in the debris of the Pentagon. He has been involved with the sere program since 1997. He speaks Arabic and has been on al-Qaeda’s tail since the early 1990s. His most recent book, The Terrorists of Iraq, is a highly potent analysis both of the jihadist threat in Mesopotamia and of the ways in which we have made its life easier. I passed one of the most dramatic evenings of my life listening to his cold but enraged denunciation of the adoption of waterboarding by the United States. The argument goes like this:

1. Waterboarding is a deliberate torture technique and has been prosecuted as such by our judicial arm when perpetrated by others.

2. If we allow it and justify it, we cannot complain if it is employed in the future by other regimes on captive U.S. citizens. It is a method of putting American prisoners in harm’s way.

3. It may be a means of extracting information, but it is also a means of extracting junk information. (Mr. Nance told me that he had heard of someone’s being compelled to confess that he was a hermaphrodite. I later had an awful twinge while wondering if I myself could have been “dunked” this far.) To put it briefly, even the C.I.A. sources for the Washington Post story on waterboarding conceded that the information they got out of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was “not all of it reliable.” Just put a pencil line under that last phrase, or commit it to memory.

4. It opens a door that cannot be closed. Once you have posed the notorious “ticking bomb” question, and once you assume that you are in the right, what will you not do? Waterboarding not getting results fast enough? The terrorist’s clock still ticking? Well, then, bring on the thumbscrews and the pincers and the electrodes and the rack....

[mundame]

4. It opens a door that cannot be closed. Once you have posed the notorious “ticking bomb” question, and once you assume that you are in the right, what will you not do? Waterboarding not getting results fast enough? The terrorist’s clock still ticking? Well, then, bring on the thumbscrews and the pincers and the electrodes and the rack....


Sure. And gang-raping his young wife, then torturing his baby toddlers slowly one by one in front of him -------------------------------

It's a soul-sickness; it is the worst sin.

There is nothing worse than torture in this sad world.

And yet now my country, which I used to be proud of, does it and defends it.

[glockmail]

Sure. And gang-raping his young wife, then torturing his baby toddlers slowly one by one in front of him -------------------------------

It's a soul-sickness; it is the worst sin.

There is nothing worse than torture in this sad world.

And yet now my country, which I used to be proud of, does it and defends it. Yeah that's exactly like waterboarding. :rolleyes:

[Yurt]

Why I like Hitchens, in spite of his agnosticism. He allowed himself to be waterboarded, acknowledges he didn't fair well, even the SECOND time. Yet, he ends with both pov:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808


When contrasted to actual torture, waterboarding is more like foreplay. No thumbscrew, no pincers, no electrodes, no rack. Can one say this of those who have been captured by the tormentors and murderers of (say) Daniel Pearl? On this analysis, any call to indict the United States for torture is therefore a lame and diseased attempt to arrive at a moral equivalence between those who defend civilization and those who exploit its freedoms to hollow it out, and ultimately to bring it down. I myself do not trust anybody who does not clearly understand this viewpoint.

good post kath

[GW in Ohio]

I do not consider it torture. The terrorists are fine afterwards with no lasting effects

How would you get the info that stopped attacks and saved lives?

I'm in agreement with you on this one, red states.

I don't have a big problem with waterboarding.

And I don't believe it starts us on a slippery slope toward the rack and the thumbscrews.

But back to the topic of this thread.....

The U.S. has a lot to be ashamed of this 4th of July and not a whole lot to be proud of.

Our invasion of Iraq has made us an outcast among nations and created many, many more enemies of America in the Muslim world that were not in the enemy column before.

[red states rule]

I'm in agreement with you on this one, red states.

I don't have a big problem with waterboarding.

And I don't believe it starts us on a slippery slope toward the rack and the thumbscrews.

But back to the topic of this thread.....

The U.S. has a lot to be ashamed of this 4th of July and not a whole lot to be proud of.

Our invasion of Iraq has made us an outcast among nations and created many, many more enemies of America in the Muslim world that were not in the enemy column before.

Not alot to be proud of eh?

Amercia has liberated more people and more countries then any other nation

America is most giving nation on Earth. We are the first ones to help those who are vicitmes of natural disasters

America leads the world in freedom and liberty. That is why everyone wants to come here

Like most libs, you do not see anything good in America. The Dems 08 slogan should be "America Stinks"

[Yurt]

Like most libs, you do not see anything good in America. The Dems 08 slogan should be "America Stinks"

yeah, what do libs see positive about america?

[red states rule]

yeah, what do libs see positive about america?

I would not know. If a hear a liberal say anything good about Amercia I will let you know

I do not count Ms Obama saying she is pround of her country for the first time since hubby started winning elections

[glockmail]

...The U.S. has a lot to be ashamed of this 4th of July and not a whole lot to be proud of.....

:fu:

[red states rule]

:fu:

Tried to rep you, but I have to spread it out more

For the party that claims to be so tolerant, they are the most intolerant and hate filled people you could ever meet

[DragonStryk72]

What torture? The US Constitution protects the rights of US citizens, not foreign terrorists

From a moral/ethical standpoint, that is not true. It is also against the agreement we made in Geneva. Technically, there is no point in our Constitution that says we can't be tortured. Go look, it isn't there, RSR.

I will celebrate the fourth, as always, because I view it more as a celebration of what we found on this day so long ago. The ideal is still alive, even if it is having the tar beaten severely out of it. Myself, I have been becoming more involved in local politics, to do what little I can to help reverse the damage.

[red states rule]

From a moral/ethical standpoint, that is not true. It is also against the agreement we made in Geneva. Technically, there is no point in our Constitution that says we can't be tortured. Go look, it isn't there, RSR.

I will celebrate the fourth, as always, because I view it more as a celebration of what we found on this day so long ago. The ideal is still alive, even if it is having the tar beaten severely out of it. Myself, I have been becoming more involved in local politics, to do what little I can to help reverse the damage.

Terrorists are not covered under the GC either. They do not meet the requirements

Hope you have a safe and happy 4th

[retiredman]

Terrorists are not covered under the GC either. They do not meet the requirements



are terrorists covered under The United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment?

[5stringJeff]

From a moral/ethical standpoint, that is not true. It is also against the agreement we made in Geneva. Technically, there is no point in our Constitution that says we can't be tortured. Go look, it isn't there, RSR.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

[red states rule]

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Again it applies to US citizens - not foreign terrorists

Will we now require the troops to read the terrorists their "rights" when they capture them?

Or have them leave the battlefield to testify in court?

[retiredman]

Again it applies to US citizens - not foreign terrorists

Will we now require the troops to read the terrorists their "rights" when they capture them?

Or have them leave the battlefield to testify in court?

I disagree. I think it applies to anyone who falls under our justice system.

did you ever answer the question as to whether terrorists were covered under The United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment?

[5stringJeff]

Again it applies to US citizens - not foreign terrorists

Will we now require the troops to read the terrorists their "rights" when they capture them?

Or have them leave the battlefield to testify in court?

I didn't say it applied to terrorists. It applies to US citizens.

[red states rule]

I didn't say it applied to terrorists. It applies to US citizens.

OK

If I misunderstood your post accept my apology

To many people think terrorists are covered by the US Constitution, and that is scary as hell

[5stringJeff]

I disagree. I think it applies to anyone who falls under our justice system.

did you ever answer the question as to whether terrorists were covered under The United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment?

Apparently, they are, although the Senate did state (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/ratification/9.htm#N12) that "... nothing in this Convention requires or authorizes legislation, or other action, by the United States of America prohibited by the Constitution of the United States as interpreted by the United States."

[Sitarro]

I disagree with housing enemy combatant at Guantanamo, shoot them in the knee caps in the battlefield and question them there before pouring pigs blood all over their rotting corpses, they are on vacation at Club Gitmo, waterboarding is the first chance they have had in years for a bath.

You need to fight the enemy the way they would fight you not pretend that we should fight a more civil war, that is what makes a quagmire. Remember how stupid the British were in the Revolutionary war walking abreast in a column, waiting for the order to fire from some fag in a wig........ they were the most powerful force in the world and a bunch of peasants and the French kicked their ass.

Or put them in our prisons in the general population and see what happens to their asses.

[avatar4321]

I entirely agree with this.

I supported this war and this president until I found out about the torture, starting in May 2004, one of the most disillusioning times of my life.

Torture is not American. I disclaim a government that behaves as ours has.

I agree that this is a Fourth of quiet and atonement; that's how we plan to spend it. The fun has gone out of the Fourth, because it's impossible to be proud of a failing America as it is failing and divided now.

I AM proud of that editorial writer: he did a good job of expressing how a lot of people feel, from that center of American patriotism once, Philadelphia.

Who exactly is being tortured? Here's my problem with the claims that there has been torture. No one has shown it to be true. Prove it to me. Otherwise stop making the claim.

Also, Atonement is not quiet.

[avatar4321]

If you are trying to claim there WAS no torture, that ship has long since sailed.

What because you said so? I am so sick and tired of people who think they can repeat things over and over and over and then somehow, while providing no actual evidence, it will be true.

yes yes Bush lied. We cant point to a lie but he lied.

Yes yes prisoners have been tortured. We cant name a single one but we all know it happened.

Prove it.

[avatar4321]

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Is it punshment if used for interrogation?

[avatar4321]

I disagree. I think it applies to anyone who falls under our justice system.

did you ever answer the question as to whether terrorists were covered under The United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment?

Question's irrelevant. You havent shown any terrorist has been tortured.

[midcan5]

In order to be a member of any sect, one must swear allegiance to everything the sect does, and defend everything it does as justified. The republican party's view of America is that of a sect today, it is a America our founding mothers and fathers would throw out.

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else." Teddy Roosevelt

[avatar4321]

In order to be a member of any sect, one must swear allegiance to everything the sect does, and defend everything it does as justified. The republican party's view of America is that of a sect today, it is a America our founding mothers and fathers would throw out.

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else." Teddy Roosevelt

How is this relevant? No one has said you can't criticize the President.

[retiredman]

Apparently, they are, although the Senate did state (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/ratification/9.htm#N12) that "... nothing in this Convention requires or authorizes legislation, or other action, by the United States of America prohibited by the Constitution of the United States as interpreted by the United States."


where is not torturing someone prohibited by the Constitution?

[retiredman]

Question's irrelevant. You havent shown any terrorist has been tortured.


do you think that waterboarding is allowed under that treaty? how about hypothermia? how about extreme sleep deprivation?

[actsnoblemartin]

If you knew one american life was saved by torturing a knon islamic terrist thug, would you support it, yes or no?


do you think that waterboarding is allowed under that treaty? how about hypothermia? how about extreme sleep deprivation?

[5stringJeff]

where is not torturing someone prohibited by the Constitution?

I'm just reporting what I found. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't be torturing anyone, for any reason, for both moral and legal reasons, the legal reason being that we are a signatory to a treaty (i.e. the UN Convention Against Torture) that forbids it.

[5stringJeff]

Is it punshment if used for interrogation?

If it's administered by the government, on a person in that government's custody, yes.

[red states rule]

I'm just reporting what I found. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't be torturing anyone, for any reason, for both moral and legal reasons, the legal reason being that we are a signatory to a treaty (i.e. the UN Convention Against Torture) that forbids it.

The US is not torturing anyone. Again, the libs rants about waterboarding is a mute issue

Nobody has been waterboarded for years. Only 3 terrorists were waterboarded, and in each case, they cracked and gave up inofrmation that prevented attacks

Dems even saw the video of them being waterboarded and did not say anything at that time

Only when they could score political points did they have a cow over the "rights" of terrorists

[retiredman]

If you knew one american life was saved by torturing a knon islamic terrist thug, would you support it, yes or no?
no

[retiredman]

I'm just reporting what I found. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't be torturing anyone, for any reason, for both moral and legal reasons, the legal reason being that we are a signatory to a treaty (i.e. the UN Convention Against Torture) that forbids it.


I agree completely.

and the argument posed by RSR that "we have only violated the constitution a few times so that makes it alright" is insultingly ridiculous

[GW in Ohio]

If you knew one american life was saved by torturing a knon islamic terrist thug, would you support it, yes or no?

To answer your question, yes, I'd support it.

But let's define torture.

We don't have to inflict pain or use the rack. That's crude stuff. We have more sophisticated means of extracting information, like waterboarding and sleep deprivation.

[Hagbard Celine]

Once again, the liberal media is showing their contempt for America just in time for the 4th of July holiday


Chris Satullo: A not-so-glorious Fourth
U.S. atrocities are unworthy of our heritage

Put the fireworks in storage.
Cancel the parade.

Tuck the soaring speeches in a drawer for another time.

This year, America doesn't deserve to celebrate its birthday. This Fourth of July should be a day of quiet and atonement.

For we have sinned.

We have failed to pay attention. We've settled for lame excuses. We've spit on the memory of those who did that brave, brave thing in Philadelphia 232 years ago.

The America those men founded should never torture a prisoner.

The America they founded should never imprison people for years without charge or hearing.

The America they founded should never ship prisoners to foreign lands, knowing their new jailers might torture them.

Such abuses once were committed by the arrogant crowns of Europe, spawning rebellion.

Today, our nation does such things in the name of our safety. Petrified, unwilling to take the risks that love of liberty demands, we close our eyes.

We have done such things, on orders from the Oval Office. We have done them, without general outrage or shame.

Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo. CIA secret prisons. "Rendition" of prisoners to foreign torture chambers.

It's not enough that we had good reason to be scared.

The men huddled long ago in Philadelphia had better reason. A British fleet floated off the Jersey coast, full of hands eager to hang them from the nearest lampposts.

Yet they pledged their lives and sacred honor - no idle vow - to defend the "inalienable rights" of men. Inalienable - what does that signify? It means rights that belong to each person, simply by virtue of being human. Rights that can never be taken away, no matter what evil a person might do or might intend.

Surely one of those is the right not to be tortured. Surely that is a piece of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

This is the creed of July 4: No matter what it costs us, no matter how it scares us, no matter how foolish it seems to a cynical world, America should stand up for human rights.

for the complete article
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20080701_Chris_Satullo__A_not-so-glorious_Fourth.html

This is ridiculous. Everyone knows that our forefathers were a bunch of slave-owning hypocritical atheist womanizing drunken white-supremacist pot head coke addicts. What rag is this guy on? :cuckoo:

[DragonStryk72]

Terrorists are not covered under the GC either. They do not meet the requirements

Hope you have a safe and happy 4th

They are in fact, only the Bush admin decided to shred our honor with that "enemy combatant" tag they threw in just to get around it. you cannot defeat terror with terror. It doesn't work, because then we become the thing we fight, and our ideal fails. We do not need torture to win this, just as we've never needed it to win previously.

I view our current history as a challenge to become the best once more, because I am disappointed in the direction we've gone down. We do need to cease torture, or "stress positions" or whatever other legalistic crap you want to shirk honor and call it. We keep acting all afraid of these little shit 3rd world leaders, who have whole countries that are smaller than our individual states, when our country is founded in the overthrow of the Empire on Which the Sun Never Sets. We've won every time we have fought for the right reasons, and lost every time that we haven't, yet still the lesson seems to be escaping our leaders.

In Afghanistan, we won in, what, about a month? Had we continued our work there, shown the resolve to take OBL down, I believe wholeheartedly that we would have already captured him, but instead of simply hunting down our enemy, we spread our focus, and went after Iraq, which had nothing to do with Afghanistan. McCain was right originally when he blurted out that we were wasting our troops' lives, and he would likely have gotten my vote had he had the sack to stick by those words.

[DragonStryk72]

This is ridiculous. Everyone knows that our forefathers were a bunch of slave-owning hypocritical atheist womanizing drunken white-supremacist pot head coke addicts. What rag is this guy on? :cuckoo:

Actually, our founding fathers were libertarian deists- they believed that God set the rules down in the beginning, and then stepped back to allow man to have free will, stepping in only when necessary, and that government should do the same. As to slave-owners, I assume you speak of those who weren't abolitionists. Thomas Jefferson in fact was paying his former slaves, having freed them, as others did as well, before the war, because when he was looking over his line "All men are created equal", he thought it was hypocritical to preach liberty, while enslaving others. The problem is that, when you're getting ready to fight the Empire on Which the Sun Never Sets with an army that is mostly militia, you really don't have the time for a civil war.

As well, slaves were offered their freedom in exchange for 6 months service, which was still a large step, if it had seemed small from our perspective. As to pot and coke, Pot is and always has been harmless, it's less harmful than cigarettes. As to Coke, possible, but then, they didn't have any research on it, so it wasn't like there were any government sponsored service messages about it. They knew it picked them up, and didn't really trouble themselves overmuch about what might happen down the line, since it wasn't illegal.

Now, when you go out and establish a unified democracy that will last over 200 years, and change the entire face of the world around it, and become one of the greatest powers in the history of the world, then maybe I'll lend a little more credence to your opinion here. don't step into this debate with a W&M history grad, you will lose this argument.

To quote Firefly, "Every man that ever got a statue made of him was some kind of bastard or another."

[5stringJeff]

The US is not torturing anyone. Again, the libs rants about waterboarding is a mute issue

Nobody has been waterboarded for years. Only 3 terrorists were waterboarded, and in each case, they cracked and gave up inofrmation that prevented attacks

Dems even saw the video of them being waterboarded and did not say anything at that time

Only when they could score political points did they have a cow over the "rights" of terrorists

In logical argument form:

Premise #1: Waterboarding is torture. (shown in the link in post #5)
Premise #2: American officials used waterboarding as an interrogation technique. (admitted by you in post #8 and #47)
Conclusion #1 (from P1 and P2): American officials have used torture techniques in interrogation.
Premise #3: The US has signed a treaty, known as the UN Convention Against Torture, which binds signatory states to abstain from using torture in any state capacity. (see post #34)
Conclusion #2 (from C1 and P3): The use of torture by American officials was illegal.

[Hagbard Celine]

Actually, our founding fathers were libertarian deists- they believed that God set the rules down in the beginning, and then stepped back to allow man to have free will, stepping in only when necessary, and that government should do the same. As to slave-owners, I assume you speak of those who weren't abolitionists. Thomas Jefferson in fact was paying his former slaves, having freed them, as others did as well, before the war, because when he was looking over his line "All men are created equal", he thought it was hypocritical to preach liberty, while enslaving others. The problem is that, when you're getting ready to fight the Empire on Which the Sun Never Sets with an army that is mostly militia, you really don't have the time for a civil war.

As well, slaves were offered their freedom in exchange for 6 months service, which was still a large step, if it had seemed small from our perspective. As to pot and coke, Pot is and always has been harmless, it's less harmful than cigarettes. As to Coke, possible, but then, they didn't have any research on it, so it wasn't like there were any government sponsored service messages about it. They knew it picked them up, and didn't really trouble themselves overmuch about what might happen down the line, since it wasn't illegal.

Now, when you go out and establish a unified democracy that will last over 200 years, and change the entire face of the world around it, and become one of the greatest powers in the history of the world, then maybe I'll lend a little more credence to your opinion here. don't step into this debate with a W&M history grad, you will lose this argument.

To quote Firefly, "Every man that ever got a statue made of him was some kind of bastard or another."

Yeah, I thought about putting "deist" in my list but I went for "atheist" instead because I knew it'd get a bigger rise out of the hillbillies on here.
As for the slave issue, it is my understanding (and correctly so) that Jefferson owned slaves up until his death (he only emancipated his five favorite slaves)--so you are wrong in this respect--but that he had in fact worked to advance the cause of abolition in Virginia even though it was his opinion that Blacks are inferior to Whites and that it would be impossible for the two to live freely together peacefully. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#Jefferson_and_slavery

I'm glad you can find no other fault with my statement.

[Abbey Marie]

Politicizing this, of all holidays, for a partisan rant, is pathetic.

At this point, there should be rotisseries in our founders' graves, and in the graves of all the colonials who perished fighting.

[actsnoblemartin]

typical left wing, america haters

they should be ashamed of themselves


Once again, the liberal media is showing their contempt for America just in time for the 4th of July holiday


Chris Satullo: A not-so-glorious Fourth
U.S. atrocities are unworthy of our heritage

Put the fireworks in storage.
Cancel the parade.

Tuck the soaring speeches in a drawer for another time.

This year, America doesn't deserve to celebrate its birthday. This Fourth of July should be a day of quiet and atonement.

For we have sinned.

We have failed to pay attention. We've settled for lame excuses. We've spit on the memory of those who did that brave, brave thing in Philadelphia 232 years ago.

The America those men founded should never torture a prisoner.

The America they founded should never imprison people for years without charge or hearing.

The America they founded should never ship prisoners to foreign lands, knowing their new jailers might torture them.

Such abuses once were committed by the arrogant crowns of Europe, spawning rebellion.

Today, our nation does such things in the name of our safety. Petrified, unwilling to take the risks that love of liberty demands, we close our eyes.

We have done such things, on orders from the Oval Office. We have done them, without general outrage or shame.

Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo. CIA secret prisons. "Rendition" of prisoners to foreign torture chambers.

It's not enough that we had good reason to be scared.

The men huddled long ago in Philadelphia had better reason. A British fleet floated off the Jersey coast, full of hands eager to hang them from the nearest lampposts.

Yet they pledged their lives and sacred honor - no idle vow - to defend the "inalienable rights" of men. Inalienable - what does that signify? It means rights that belong to each person, simply by virtue of being human. Rights that can never be taken away, no matter what evil a person might do or might intend.

Surely one of those is the right not to be tortured. Surely that is a piece of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

This is the creed of July 4: No matter what it costs us, no matter how it scares us, no matter how foolish it seems to a cynical world, America should stand up for human rights.

for the complete article
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20080701_Chris_Satullo__A_not-so-glorious_Fourth.html

[retiredman]

In logical argument form:

Premise #1: Waterboarding is torture. (shown in the link in post #5)
Premise #2: American officials used waterboarding as an interrogation technique. (admitted by you in post #8 and #47)
Conclusion #1 (from P1 and P2): American officials have used torture techniques in interrogation.
Premise #3: The US has signed a treaty, known as the UN Convention Against Torture, which binds signatory states to abstain from using torture in any state capacity. (see post #34)
Conclusion #2 (from C1 and P3): The use of torture by American officials was illegal.

bingo!!!