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View Full Version : NYers' gun rights may depend on hot dog vendor's case



Little-Acorn
08-07-2008, 10:41 AM
Last month, the Supreme Court decided that the 2nd amendment protected the right of a DC resident to keep a gun in his home. Since the resident had told the court that he would be satisfied if DC merely required a permit, the Court limited its decision to a statement that DC had to issue him such a permit.

The Court pointed out that its decision applied only to this DC resident's case, and that it was remaining silent on the issue of whether gun possession outside the home was protected by the 2nd. But its decision in the DC case, does give some indication of how it might decide future cases.

Other cases need to be brought before the Supreme Court, to decide those "other" issues.

Here they come.

Big-government advocates have been encroaching on our rights for generations now. It will be a long fight, as we wrest every little piece of oour rights back from them, stretching over at least as many generations in the future.

With the DC case, the battle has begun over our God-given right to keep and bear arms as sovereign individuals. The next skirmishes are already lining up.

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http://www.nysun.com/new-york/gun-rights-of-new-yorkers-may-rest-on-case-of-hot/83043/

New Yorkers' Gun Rights May Rest on Hot Dog Vendor's Case
New Supreme Court Ruling Is Cited Repeatedly in City Gun Cases

by JOSEPH GOLDSTEIN, Staff Reporter of the Sun
August 1, 2008

If New York's strict antigun laws are overturned in the near future, it may be the work of a hot dog vendor.

The vendor, Daniel Vargas, is due next month in court to fight misdemeanor charges that he kept an unlicensed revolver loaded on a basement shelf in his apartment. The case, which has generated 23 hearings and been heard by no fewer than 10 different judges as it winds through Brooklyn's lowest criminal court, would be of little general interest, except for the fact that the U.S. Supreme Court recently ruled that the Second Amendment protects a right to keep a handgun at home for self-defense.

Now, suddenly, Mr. Vargas's case, as well as a handful of other cases, are testing the authority of district attorneys to prosecute people for gun possession, a strategy that Mayor Bloomberg has emphasized in his criminal justice policies.

In about half a dozen New York City cases reviewed by The New York Sun, defense lawyers have filed briefs arguing that the Supreme Court's decision requires the dismissal of gun possession charges against their clients.

The briefs question the constitutionality of the city's treatment of all unlicensed guns as illegal guns — mere possession of which can be punished by up to 15 years in prison.

(snip)

What makes Mr. Vargas's case so singular is that the only issue is the alleged gun. He is not accused of using the gun improperly or of committing any illegal conduct unrelated to its possession. Nor did police find the alleged gun while investigating other crimes, as often happens. For instance, many unlicensed handguns are recovered from homes in the course of responding to domestic violence calls, defense lawyers say.

Police records indicate that the officer who arrested Mr. Vargas in October 2006 had received "a tip for a location with firearm." According to the police records, Mr. Vargas consented to the search and police found a loaded .38-caliber revolver in a holster sitting on a shelf, with a box of bullets nearby.

Under New York law, possession of an unregistered gun on the streets in New York City carries a maximum penalty of up to 15 years in prison, while possession of such a gun at home is treated as a misdemeanor, which rarely carries jail time for a first offense.

Mr. Vargas's legal aid attorney, Laura Guthrie, wrote in a brief that Mr. Vargas denies possessing any gun or ammunition. The court brief goes on to say that even assuming the allegations are taken as true, the prosecution, "violates the individual right to bear arms protected by the Second Amendment."

"Here the government does not allege that Mr. Vargas possessed the weapon with intent to use it unlawfully, or outside of his home," she wrote. "Mr. Vargas is accused of keeping a gun in his home. This conduct is protected by the individual right to bear arms enshrined in the Second Amendment." The brief, filed last year, cites the appellate court ruling that the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed in the June decision.

A prosecutor from the Brooklyn district attorney's office, David Morisset, had argued, before the Supreme Court ruling was issued, that the Second Amendment didn't protect an individual right to keep a gun unless the owner was a part of a militia.

In a decision last year rejecting Mr. Vargas's Second Amendment claims, a city judge, Alexander Jeong, focused on another point, which is that Mr. Vargas had never sought a gun license.

But that reason for dismissing Mr. Vargas's Second Amendment claim may have been weakened somewhat since the Supreme Court recognized an individual right to keep a gun at home.

"The question now becomes which defendants with guns in their homes should benefit from that Constitutional right," a criminal defense lawyer and former president of the city bar, Barry Kamins, said. "One issue becomes whether to allow defendants to make these types of challenges even though they never applied for the permit."

Ms. Guthrie has argued that it should not matter whether Mr. Vargas applied for a permit.

"Mr. Vargas is alleged, in essence, not to have submitted himself to the complete discretion and the extraordinary power of the New York City Police Commissioner," she wrote. "The Second Amendment does not permit such interference."

New York's permitting system itself could come under scrutiny as these issues in criminal cases are litigated.

Mayor Bloomberg and other city officials have said that the Supreme Court decision does not threaten New York City's regulations, which require that all gun owners go through a lengthy and costly licensing process. Yet, some gun rights proponents and defense lawyers say that New York's licensing system is so burdensome as to be unconstitutional.

"An average poor guy who's particularly vulnerable to burglary or break-ins is going to have a hard time getting a license," said a legal aid attorney, Steven Wasserman, who wrote the Second Amendment motion that many legal aid attorneys are now using.

It can require multiple trips to One Police Plaza, a wait of more than four months, and fees that can reach more than $1,000 over a decade.

Immanuel
08-07-2008, 10:54 AM
With the DC case, the battle has begun over our God-given right to keep and bear arms as sovereign individuals. The next skirmishes are already lining up.


1) I am FOR the right of U.S. citizens to keep and bare arms. Under the Constitution we have been given that right by the founding fathers.

2) However, I want to know where you come up with this being a God-given right.

I read my Bible quite regularly and have read it through several times, but I have never seen any mention in the Bible that says citizens have the right to bare firearms of any kind or even spears, knives or swords for that matter.

Do you have a biblical reference that supports the statement that this is a God-given right?

Immie

PS I do not accept the belief that the Quran is the word of God. I do not accept the belief that the Book of Mormon is the word of God so references from those books or books similar to them will need to come with some kind of proof that these are the words of God... not a god. ;) :laugh2:

PPS just yanking your chain here, but I would like to know how this is a God-given right.

Little-Acorn
08-07-2008, 11:04 AM
God created us as sentient, sovereign beings - that is, beings with the ability to make decisions and determine (or at least influence) our own fates. In doing so, He gave us the desire to preserve our own lives and well-being, along with an ability to do so. He clearly intended us to defend ourselves against attempts by others to take away that which He gave us.

IOW, He gave us the right to defend ourselves... and the ability to figure out new and novel ways to do it, along with giving us the materials we would need.

The Bible is the Word of God. But it does not encompass His full intentions... because by definition, His ideas and intentions are infinite and cannot be entirely codified within the limits of a printed volume. We must guess at His intentions, by examining what He has done, and said, and given us.

He clearly intended us to preserve what He gave us, by defending ourselves. And He gave us everything we would need to do it. IOW, He gave us the right to defend ourselves.

BTW, this right was not given in the Constitution, or by the Founding Fathers.. The 2nd amendment states that the right cannot be restricted or taken away... but is silent on where that right came from. By remaining silent. it implies that the right existed long before the Constitution or its 2nd amendment were written, and that their being written had nothing to do with the origin of the right.

Back to the subject:
As I mentioned, big-govt advocates have been steadily eroding this and other rights of ours, for generations. But even if we finally have a court system in place that will declare those depradations null and void, the courts cannot simply announce that fact. They must wait until relevant cases are brought before them, where someone has had his rights restricted or taken away, and then decide that such acts were illegal under our Constitution. They have to knock down the illegal statutes one at a time, as it were. That will take a LONG time, since the leftists have been building up huge numbers of them for the last century or so.

Let the games begin!

Immanuel
08-07-2008, 11:17 AM
Well, in my opinion (which means very little) you are stretching God's word to fit your beliefs here. Which, by the way, I am certain gun control advocates could do as well.

But, I'm not here to argue against our right to bare arms, rather I wanted to see how you answered the question about it being a God-given right.

Thanks for your time.

Immie

Little-Acorn
08-07-2008, 11:42 AM
Well, in my opinion (which means very little) you are stretching God's word to fit your beliefs here.

Sorry, but I'm not stretching His word. As I pointed out, I am observing what He has DONE and said, and drawing a logical conclusion. No stretching required. I also pointed out that God's word cannot possibly cover all situations He might take an interest in, since His interest is infinite.

Why do you believe my conclusions are a "stretch"?

Back to the subject:
The decision by the Supreme Court in the Heller case, is just the tiniest tip of a huge iceberg of anti-gun-rights legislation that has restricted our freedom for the last several generations. Though it had little effect overall (it was explicitly restricted to one case about one ordnance in one city), it serves as an indicator of a sea change in Court jurisprudence.

Finally the U.S. courts may be coming aorund to the realization that the Constitution means what it says (including the 2nd amendment), not what some dreamy anti-gun-rights wishful thinker wishes it said. But it will take more decades of legwork and fighting to get rid of the unconstitutional legislation the anti-rights people have put into place.

This hot-dog-vendor case is just one of thousands that will be needed, to do this. Vargas apparently never threatened anyone with the pistol in question, never killed or injured anyone, never did anything at all with it. Here merely bought it, loaded it, and placed it on a shelf in his residence, and never touched it after that.

He was, in fact, exercising the "keep" part of his right "to keep and bear arms". New York objected. It is not incumbent upon the courts to tell New York that they have no power to object, or do anything else, in regard to Vargas's actions.

Bring it on!

hjmick
08-07-2008, 11:55 AM
The hopes of NYC gun owners, and potentially gun owners everywhere, rest on the outcome of a case surrounding a curbside weiner wrangler.


Seriously... based on facts presented in the story (and the recent decision in DC), it sounds as if there is a good chance of a win for the rights of gun owners.

DragonStryk72
08-07-2008, 11:57 AM
wow, four months? Seriously, You can build a house in that length of time, a couple of houses actually. That's 16 episodes of Extreme Home Makeover.

I don't see the part in the 2nd Amendment though where it says, "As long as your states government is okay with it".

Oh, btw, just a note, but as to the whole idea of a "militia", the problem with that is that a militia arms itself, meaning that you would have to have ordinary citizens with enough firepower to fully arm themselves for battle in order for them to be useful as a militia.

DragonStryk72
08-07-2008, 11:59 AM
The hopes of NYC gun owners, and potentially gun owners everywhere, rest on the outcome of a case surrounding a curbside weiner wrangler.


Seriously... based on facts presented in the story (and the recent decision in DC), it sounds as if there is a good chance of a win for the rights of gun owners.

You know, speaking as a former New Yorker, though, I find it very appropriate that this discussion is coming down to a hot dog vendor, given their use as street-side advisor to many.

Little-Acorn
08-07-2008, 12:01 PM
The hopes of NYC gun owners, and potentially gun owners everywhere, rest on the outcome of a case surrounding a curbside weiner wrangler.
The relative insignificance of the case (a basically poor man with little or no influence who did nothing wrong) shows just how intrusive and unfair the laws of New York have grown to be.


Seriously... based on facts presented in the story (and the recent decision in DC), it sounds as if there is a good chance of a win for the rights of gun owners.

There always has been... in a world where people assume the 2nd amendment meant what it said.

That assumption is what's been missing all these years. As well as a large dose of common sense. Too bad it took a major decision by the highest court in the land, to even begin to restore what should have been "common" sense. But at least the process has been started.

hjmick
08-07-2008, 12:08 PM
You know, speaking as a former New Yorker, though, I find it very appropriate that this discussion is coming down to a hot dog vendor, given their use as street-side advisor to many.

I know, I just wanted to type "weiner wrangler."


The relative insignificance of the case (a basically poor man with little or no influence who did nothing wrong) shows just how intrusive and unfair the laws of New York have grown to be.

There always has been... in a world where people assume the 2nd amendment meant what it said.

That assumption is what's been missing all these years. As well as a large dose of common sense. Too bad it took a major decision by the highest court in the land, to even begin to restore what should have been "common" sense. But at least the process has been started.

You're preaching to the choir, brother.

I have often wondered what the reaction would be if those of us who support the right of gun ownership were to employ a similar mentality used by those who oppose such rights. What I mean is, they want to take away everyone's right to own guns, what if started an effort to force every one to own guns?

Hobbit
08-07-2008, 12:38 PM
For you, Immanuel:


Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Now, given that swords were the standard weapon of choice for both professional armies and private citizens wishing to defend themselves, and that that distinction has been taken over by the gun, I think it is safe to say that God not only gives us the right to carry a gun, but actually COMMANDS us to carry a gun, even if we have to sell our clothes to get it.

Immanuel
08-11-2008, 07:42 PM
Sorry, but I'm not stretching His word. As I pointed out, I am observing what He has DONE and said, and drawing a logical conclusion. No stretching required. I also pointed out that God's word cannot possibly cover all situations He might take an interest in, since His interest is infinite.

Why do you believe my conclusions are a "stretch"?

Sorry for the delay in this reply. I just got home from celebrating my 24th wedding anniversary in Key West. Also, please forgive me. After 8 hours of driving, I'm a bit tired.

I said stretching because your reply sounded more like an attempt to justify your position rather than actually turning to God's Word and pointing out where God has stated that we have a "God-given" right to bare arms. Ignoring verses like Luke 22:36, which I am NOT inclined to do, but to complete my thought here before discussing Hobbit's reply, and continuing with the statements that you made (and I am not saying you are wrong) one could say that Jesus commanded us to turn the other cheek or use many other non-violent responses to our oppressors none of which would include arming ourselves.


For you, Immanuel:



Now, given that swords were the standard weapon of choice for both professional armies and private citizens wishing to defend themselves, and that that distinction has been taken over by the gun, I think it is safe to say that God not only gives us the right to carry a gun, but actually COMMANDS us to carry a gun, even if we have to sell our clothes to get it.

Thanks for this reply Hobbit. I looked up Luke 22:36 and it does clearly seem to state that God, through Jesus Christ, has told his disciples to take up weapons in their own defense or in preparation for the times to come. In giving them permission to do so, it would seem that he has given us the same right to defend ourselves when the time comes.

Thanks again for both of your replies. I'm not sure what other verses there may be that support your positions, but I think I'd like to look them up... later... after a long night's sleep. :)

Immie