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dmp
10-09-2008, 01:42 PM
On the topic of McCain v. Obama I had a guy (on another forum) write:


Socialist Medical plans work for most other countries with out a hitch, we don't support it because then there is no way to turn a huge profit. See the movie "Sicko" I am not a big Michael Morre fan, but he got that one right. I have been over to many countries with a med program like this and it is far superior to ours with care just as good. There is magnetic tape of Nixon saying that we should't go to a socialst medical plan because there is just so much money to be made in the insurance biz. If you have not seen the movie, I really urge you to see it, some of the things that are revealed are horrifying.


WHA????????????? How do you respond to something like that?

Abbey
10-09-2008, 01:54 PM
On the topic of McCain v. Obama I had a guy (on another forum) write:




WHA????????????? How do you respond to something like that?

I think you have to neuter it for the sake of mankind. :coffee:

diuretic
10-11-2008, 02:28 AM
On the topic of McCain v. Obama I had a guy (on another forum) write:




WHA????????????? How do you respond to something like that?

With a ....."damn right!" :laugh2:

Psychoblues
10-11-2008, 02:46 AM
Zactly, doc, zactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!


With a ....."damn right!" :laugh2:

The reichwing world in America is nothing more than a series of "damn right"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think it's their mating call!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

avatar4321
10-11-2008, 03:01 AM
On the topic of McCain v. Obama I had a guy (on another forum) write:




WHA????????????? How do you respond to something like that?

You cant. Because if someone is that deluded he just cant see the truth.

Psychoblues
10-11-2008, 03:07 AM
Delusion is a common thing in conservative circles, a'21!!!!!!!!!!!



You cant. Because if someone is that deluded he just cant see the truth.

Good catch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

Noir
10-11-2008, 04:41 AM
Delusion is a common thing in conservative circles, a'21!!!!!!!!!!!




Good catch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

and it's a common thing in liberal circles aswell psychobabe, infact it is common in all aspects of politic, as politics itself is the art of deception.

Yurt
10-11-2008, 02:14 PM
compare american health industry to canadian health industry...the facts are that america has far superior medical care/treatment...and much quicker access time...problem is not all can afford it....canada, while not as superior, is accessable in terms of finances...but not accessible because of the long wait lists...and one thing that truly bothers me....the government decides whether you truly need this or that treatment

Said1
10-11-2008, 04:34 PM
compare american health industry to canadian health industry...the facts are that america has far superior medical care/treatment...and much quicker access time...problem is not all can afford it....canada, while not as superior, is accessable in terms of finances...but not accessible because of the long wait lists...and one thing that truly bothers me....the government decides whether you truly need this or that treatment

How do they do this, exactly? Which government - fed, prov or municiple?

Mr. P
10-11-2008, 05:59 PM
I've never spoken to a Canadian that was happy with their health care system.
I'm sure there are exceptions, I've just never met one in all my travels.

Maybe said1 likes it, I donno.

Said1
10-11-2008, 06:33 PM
I've never spoken to a Canadian that was happy with their health care system.
I'm sure there are exceptions, I've just never met one in all my travels.

Maybe said1 likes it, I donno.

Some people like it, some don't. I've had good experiences and bad. I get sick I go to the doctor. I needed surgery, no wait - others do. Like many governmemt services, location and demographics quite often determine quality and access. Large population growth within this type of system isn't compatible - provincial population fluctuations and poor city planning are a problem too. It's not always possible for city facilities to keep up with increased demand if increases happen rather quickly - you can only build so fast. I also think people have the wrong idea about why healthcare is declining in Canada and it has more to do with population than socialism. That is, even IF healthcare was totally private, I don't know if Canada would have that many more doctors - the same infrastructure problems would still exist with respect to regional population changes as well. At least that's my opinion.

Yurt
10-11-2008, 08:58 PM
How do they do this, exactly? Which government - fed, prov or municiple?

my wife says it is probably a combination, depending on the wealth of the province, etc... she also said i am not technically right on the government (paraphrasing here) per se deciding your treatment, however the doctors are employed by the government....that was my point, the government is made up of employees of the government. in the states, we call someone working for the government in the scope of their employment...a state actor...

so in essence, it is my opinion that the government makes the ultimate decisions...you have budgets etc....


Some people like it, some don't. I've had good experiences and bad. I get sick I go to the doctor. I needed surgery, no wait - others do. Like many governmemt services, location and demographics quite often determine quality and access. Large population growth within this type of system isn't compatible - provincial population fluctuations and poor city planning are a problem too. It's not always possible for city facilities to keep up with increased demand if increases happen rather quickly - you can only build so fast. I also think people have the wrong idea about why healthcare is declining in Canada and it has more to do with population than socialism. That is, even IF healthcare was totally private, I don't know if Canada would have that many more doctors - the same infrastructure problems would still exist with respect to regional population changes as well. At least that's my opinion.

that is a fair opinion and not one i think anyone can say: you're wrong.

in addition to my wife being canadian, i had quite a few canadian profs at uni as the uni was in WA. since i was a business major, this topic actually came up quite a bit. it was never resolved on who or what was at fault, only that, if you truly needed ground breaking medical work or medical work right away, you come to the US, so long as you can afford it....and if you can't afford it in the US, then some wait is better than never getting help

that is my recollection anyways

Said1
10-11-2008, 09:36 PM
my wife says it is probably a combination, depending on the wealth of the province, etc... she also said i am not technically right on the government (paraphrasing here) per se deciding your treatment, however the doctors are employed by the government....that was my point, the government is made up of employees of the government. in the states, we call someone working for the government in the scope of their employment...a state actor...

so in essence, it is my opinion that the government makes the ultimate decisions...you have budgets etc....

To be honest, I'm not totally sure how the budget is passed down. That is, I'm not sure what is ear marked for what when the feds give to the provinces who in turn give to regional governments. Citizens of each province are covered by provincial plans, so I'm assuming, for the most part that the province decides what is covered and what isn't. I know that people often head to the US and are covered under provincial plans, it's not always a cash deal either. What you pay into your provincial plan varies per province as well. In Ontario, I pay via taxes. In BC, I would pay via taxes and based on monthly income! Then there's equalization payments, transfer payments -etc.




that is a fair opinion and not one i think anyone can say: you're wrong.

in addition to my wife being canadian, i had quite a few canadian profs at uni as the uni was in WA. since i was a business major, this topic actually came up quite a bit. it was never resolved on who or what was at fault, only that, if you truly needed ground breaking medical work or medical work right away, you come to the US, so long as you can afford it....and if you can't afford it in the US, then some wait is better than never getting help

that is my recollection anyways

Again, I think it's fair to say that population has a large influence on economics in Canada. What I mean by that is; where there is less people, there will be less industry and innovation due to lack of capital, among other things. I'm not a business major, so I won't say that's the final answer, but it does come into play at some point. Of course, there are things that can aid in remedying this situation, but with a very limited population, there will be less scientists, less doctors, less billionaires etc. On the other hand, our population is growing enough to surpass our health care needs. What should we do?

This topic gets on my nerves. :laugh2:

Yurt
10-11-2008, 10:10 PM
UOTE=Said1;307738]To be honest, I'm not totally sure how the budget is passed down. That is, I'm not sure what is ear marked for what when the feds give to the provinces who in turn give to regional governments. Citizens of each province are covered by provincial plans, so I'm assuming, for the most part that the province decides what is covered and what isn't. I know that people often head to the US and are covered under provincial plans, it's not always a cash deal either. What you pay into your provincial plan varies per province as well. In Ontario, I pay via taxes. In BC, I would pay via taxes and based on monthly income! Then there's equalization payments, transfer payments -etc.

did not know that, will ask my wife and her family





Again, I think it's fair to say that population has a large influence on economics in Canada. What I mean by that is; where there is less people, there will be less industry and innovation due to lack of capital, among other things. I'm not a business major, so I won't say that's the final answer, but it does come into play at some point. Of course, there are things that can aid in remedying this situation, but with a very limited population, there will be less scientists, less doctors, less billionaires etc. On the other hand, our population is growing enough to surpass our health care needs. What should we do?

This topic gets on my nerves. :laugh2:

a sexy nurse with a wicked (i want to stab you in a sexy manner) grin for an avi....you kill me or stab me, your pick

a business major is not required to have a some ethereal final answer....for i am willing to wager that you will find at least two phd business majors who disagree :)

this of course does not negate the fact i am always right :laugh2:

i can see your point about limited population. OR and WA do pretty good, given their limited population. CA, so so, maybe good on the very high end, but look at our budget and current situation. I mention CA because CA has more people than Canada...and yes, i pointed that out to my girlfriend, fiancee and wife...

i would have to talk to more canadians about this, but my wife's immediate family believes many of the ailments are due to unions.

Said1
10-11-2008, 10:37 PM
a sexy nurse with a wicked (i want to stab you in a sexy manner) grin for an avi....you kill me or stab me, your pick

a business major is not required to have a some ethereal final answer....for i am willing to wager that you will find at least two phd business majors who disagree :)

this of course does not negate the fact i am always right :laugh2:

i can see your point about limited population. OR and WA do pretty good, given their limited population. CA, so so, maybe good on the very high end, but look at our budget and current situation. I mention CA because CA has more people than Canada...and yes, i pointed that out to my girlfriend, fiancee and wife...


I'm a human geography major and a lot of what I study involves the various aspects of population growth and decline and it's affects on different societies. Health Care isn't my favorite topic, I prefer funner stuff like 'light rail' expansion. The economics of health care is enough to put be to sleep for a long time, although I do know that price capping on services had made it very undesirable for doctors to practice in Canada. I've heard it's also difficult for foreign doctors to do what they need to do in order to get proper licensing, after being recruited from abroad - even though it seems like everyone is on their way to see dr. Chang or Dr. Ackmed..

As for unions and health care, I don't know. I do know that a few years back I applied for a job at one of the Ottawa hospitals. i forget the exact job title, but it involved walking around the corporate campus with a cart, picking up boxes of files and then destroying them in a giant thing-a-ma-bob. It paid $22/hr plus benefits out the A$$. Ottawa city hospitals are so desperate for staff, they're willing to take admin staff who received ICS diplomas. I bet Sally Struthers herself could get a job in admitting - wig and all. :laugh2:

Yurt
10-12-2008, 12:45 AM
TE=Said1;307748]I'm a human geography major

don't give up hope :laugh2:

i'm kidding you really


and a lot of what I study involves the various aspects of population growth and decline and it's affects on different societies. Health Care isn't my favorite topic, I prefer funner stuff like 'light rail' expansion. The economics of health care is enough to put be to sleep for a long time, although I do know that price capping on services had made it very undesirable for doctors to practice in Canada. I've heard it's also difficult for foreign doctors to do what they need to do in order to get proper licensing, after being recruited from abroad - even though it seems like everyone is on their way to see dr. Chang or Dr. Ackmed..

therein lies the argument...price caps...the free market....

who controls the price

who controls the market

and who controls both

the government should have a light hand in this....not a heavy hand. there is something for the private sector, even you see this in the medical field. right or wrong, the private medical sector does well, and if they dont, they fail. no one bails them out



As for unions and health care, I don't know. I do know that a few years back I applied for a job at one of the Ottawa hospitals. i forget the exact job title, but it involved walking around the corporate campus with a cart, picking up boxes of files and then destroying them in a giant thing-a-ma-bob. It paid $22/hr plus benefits out the A$$. Ottawa city hospitals are so desperate for staff, they're willing to take admin staff who received ICS diplomas. I bet Sally Struthers herself could get a job in admitting - wig and all. :laugh2:

i have never recieved benefits out of the A$$.... care to explain :finger3:

my question is this then.....the government is not working....do we know the private sector would not work.....well......maybe not........but........the government is not working in canada

or is it?

what is our choice?

Said1
10-12-2008, 10:13 AM
my question is this then.....the government is not working....do we know the private sector would not work.....well......maybe not........but........the government is not working in canada

or is it?

what is our choice?

I think we can use Quebec as an example. They've allowed for a certain amount of privatization. They're not supposed to and we're not supposed to go over there and pay, but we do and the feds look the other way. We have a small amount of it here in Ontario as well, but they do not apply to the private services Quebec allows ie MRIs. Ontario hospitals have those machines running 24/7. It's not uncommon for people to have appointments at 2am - it's all about wait times.

I don't have a problem with a 2 tiered system similar to Australia's, IF spending stayed the same as it is now. Meaning that health care professionals should be allowed to work inside and outside the health care system. We should be allowed, in certain cases to combine provincial health care plans with private plans (outside of private hospital rooms etc). I hardly see the point of having private insurance if it only covers things such as eye exams, orthopedic shoes and a visit to the chiropractor.


Those are just a few ideas. Brilliant, I know. :dance:

Said1
10-12-2008, 11:05 AM
I would have to agree with this:
The major problem in the quality and effectiveness of
medical education stems from the mismatch between the
health needs of the public and what is concentrated upon,
demonstrated and taught in our academic medical centers.
The educational program is dominated by the choices
made in research and patient care, which reflect the
interests of the many specialized individuals and groups
that make up the faculty. Though each of these choices has
some relevance to health and disease, when taken together,
they rarely match the health needs of the population as a
whole. Geriatrics and alcoholism, for example, present
massive problems which get little, if any, attention in the
academic medical center. The emphasis is on acute and
unusual conditions, leaving chronic disease grossly neglected.
The focus is generally on the unusual rather than the
common problems. Prevention and rehabilitation are
given lip service. Tertiary care is preferred over primary
care. The patient in bed is deemed to be more interesting
than the one who is ambulatory. The patients in the
teaching hospital, where student experience is concentrated,
represent a tiny fraction, less than 1 percent, of the
total number of patients who seek medical care at any
point in time. How can this experience be thought to
prepare students adequately for medical practice?

....................Causes of postgraduate training problems
The causes are not obvious. Perhaps the single
most important one is the absence of control and
coordination of the total complement of funded
positions and their allocation across specialties and
training sites. Even a cursory look at the statistics
provided by CAPER'2 reveals numerous examples of
duplication and of small programs.
However, there is a deeper issue. The need for
control and coordination seems widely acknowledged
and appreciated; thus, their virtual absence
must be attributed to a failure of political will, at two
levels. First, despite the ample opportunity for coordination
in some provinces no agency has stepped in
to take a leadership role (although the Council of
Faculties of Medicine in Ontario is trying). Second,
at the time of our report there had been few serious
attempts to develop interprovincial arrangements.*
This same lack of political will underlies the
misalignment of the mix of funded positions with
population needs. Provincial ministries have always
been keenly interested in the overall numbers of
positions they fund but apparently not in their
specialty mix. As one senior ministry official noted,
"We know it's a problem, and we know it's a
problem about which we could do something.
Somehow it never seems to be quite important
enough amidst the competing political and fiscal
priorities." Certainly, medical educatQrs have no
interest in seeing governments involved in the
"micromanage[ment of] postgraduate training."'9
There is ample evidence of similar problems at
individual institutions. As Maudsley'3 noted, "in
many programs the issue is not too few trainees but,
rather, too many CTUs [clinical teaching units]."
The causes are pressures from clinical teaching units
and potential clinical supervisors who would stand
to benefit personally from the establishment of
programs and affiliations.'3 This conflict between the
service needs of teaching units and the educational
needs of a mix of residents that matches population
requirements should be resolved in favour of the
educational interests (legitimate service needs being
met through other means).
Of course, it is not always (or ever) that easy.
For example, a province's subspecialty service needs
may be met only through the offer of an academic
affiliation and a residency program during recruitment.
To meet such needs a province may end up
training people it has no use for.


This is part of an assesment of a report found here......(warning, very big PDF document, do not click link of not interested!)http://www.chspr.ubc.ca/files/publications/1991/hpru91-06D.pdf
This is a very indepth health care policy analysis. One of their findings, back in '92 was that we were facing a physician SURPLUS!!!!!! Of course, things were done to remedy an already faltering system to make it worse.


The snip above can be found here: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1336286&blobtype=pdf
It has more to do with specialists training and possible explainations why we are lacking in that area.

Yurt
10-12-2008, 02:37 PM
good points Said1, i may go through the info

DragonStryk72
10-13-2008, 03:16 AM
Zactly, doc, zactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!



The reichwing world in America is nothing more than a series of "damn right"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think it's their mating call!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:salute::cheers2::clap::laugh2::cheers2::salute:

Yes, PB, that's exactly what we should do, I mean we've done so well with the economy, education, medicare, medicaid, social security, and welfare, we should have the government handle the medical too. Yeah, that's the ticket.