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View Full Version : Republicans stopped being conservative, and paid the price



Little-Acorn
11-05-2008, 12:17 PM
Barack Obama will be our next President. A man so unabashedly socialistic, that he didn't even bother to deny it, and even asked "What's wrong with that?" in so many words.

And yes, he will be my President, too. I will support him as I supported George Bush... and I will oppose him on policy issues I disagree with, just as I opposed George Bush on exploding government spending, new entitlements, campaign finance "reform", and other such things. But none of this "He's not MY President" crap - that's for babies, disgruntled losers who can't handle real life, and is frankly unAmerican - the first time I've ever used that word about any political attitude.

I have too much respect for the Constitution, and the ageless wisdom and shrewd practical truths the Framers put into it, to deny one of its most fiundamental principles: That both the people who vote for AND AGAINST an issue, agree to be bound by the election's outcome regardless, and work to support the decision of the whole once the votes are counted.

But how did this outcome happen? America is a fundamentally conservative country. Most of its citizens would never dream of walking into their neighbor's house, holding him up at gunpoint, and taking his hard-earned money to hand to others "for free". Nor would they ever demand that the neighbor be thrown in jail and lose his land for draining a marsh on that privately held property. Nor would they ever give condoms to their 13-year-old daughters, or encourage their kids to be lazy and wait for government to take care of them. That those same Americans then turn around and vote for government officials who will do exactly those things, remains an enduring mystery.

I suspect it has to do with the idea that, if their only choices in an election is to vote between two liberals (as yesterday's election was), they may as well vote for a real one, rather than one who has to compromise himself and betray his friends to be liberal. Nobody likes, or trusts, a turncoat. And at least the real liberal promises them more goodies, which they may as well grab since they aren't going to get what they really want from either candidate.

Conservatism is, of course, the idea that a central government should confine itself to functions that private individuals and groups CANNOT do: National defense, dispassionate criminal pursuit and prosecution, adjudicating civil conflicts, coining money, foreign relations, and a few others. Things that private groups can do, but some people think govt can do better, are FORBIDDEN to the central government.

The only landslides in most of our living memories, have come when a genuine conservative who did NOT compromise his principles, ran against liberals. They happened in 1980 and 1984,and congressionally in 1994. In those elections, the American people were offered a clear choice: Smaller government that would stay out of their way and confine itself to the things government was originally designed for (protecting our rights), versus politicians who made it clear that they would expand government and extend it into the most private areas of their lives (and charge them for the privilege). And the American people's response was equally clear, every time: A thunderous rejection of the big-government advocates, in favor of the smaller-government advocates.

Only in the 1990s and 2000s, did the picture become murkier as both sides started expanding government and offering the voters goodies taxed away from other people. When Republicans won, they did so by narrower and narrower (and sometimes negative) margins; and even when Democrats won, they never got a majority of the popular vote, until yesterday, and then only 52%.

Fast forward to today. The Republicans need to read the writing on the wall. They've tried being liberal. They've tried compromising with liberals. They've tried being nice guys. And they've sunk further and further into the mud, every time, without exception.

They need to realize that the American people don't want nice guys. They don't want compromisers - note that they keep voting for liberals who have NO history of compromising their ideas. And historically they don't want liberals, either: when they have a choice, they vote for a genuine conservative every time. They only vote for liberals when that's all that both candidates offer.

What Americans want, is a government that protects their rights. And they don't mind when that government is uncompromising about it. In fact, they do mind when government does compromise on that ideal.

In other words, the American people have not changed much. THEY WANT CONSERVATISM. The Republican party has offered them everything BUT that for the last twenty years... and look at where it's goitten them.

Again, Republicans need to read the writing on the wall. They can't (or shouldn't) out-liberal the liberals - people will choose a real one over a fake one, when those are the only choices. But when they have a clear choice between big government and small, low taxes versus high, freedom and personal responsibilities versus nanny-state cradle-to-grave government "care", rigorous national defense versus compromise and appeasement of our foreign enemies, they choose conservatism every time, and by WIDE margins.

We need to start with CONSERVATIVE leaders in government, who will swing the party toward the ideal mentioned above. And if some liberal Republicans (some call them "neocons") get upset and threaten to leave the party... good riddance. Far more real conservatives will join, than will leave, since America has far more of the former than the latter within its borders.

America is a fundamentally conservative country, and always has been. America needs a party that reflects that fact... to make up for the fact that they don't have one now, and haven't for twenty years.

Republicans stopped being conservative long ago, and paid the price. They'd better take the hint.

Gaffer
11-05-2008, 01:15 PM
I will reiterate, he is not MY president. I fought against his like in Vietnam. I stood against his like during the cold war. Everything he stands for I am against. Its not the rantings of a disgruntled loser. It's the disappointment I have in this country.

You think conservatives are going to rebuild their party and come out fresh and take back the reigns of government. Forget it. The commies are not going to let that happen. We have entered the age of one party rule. rinos will tow the line and real conservatives will disappear. And the media will sing the praises of the messiah.

It has been an historic election. He is the first affirmative action president.

Little-Acorn
11-05-2008, 01:38 PM
I will reiterate, he is not MY president. I fought against his like in Vietnam.
The people you fought against there, were people who didn't think there was a good reason to run a legitimate election or abide by its outcome.

Consider carefully which side you want to be on here.

I have never seen an election that chose 100% of what I wanted. This one less than the rest. But I have abided by them all... not because I liked the outcome, but because I thought it was better for the country that we accept the outcome, even while working for a different outcome in the NEXT election.

Obama will be my President... because he will be my country's president. Even as I plan to oppose many of his ideas, like I opposed many of Bush's, and work for his defeat in 2012.


Its not the rantings of a disgruntled loser.
Unfortunately, that's exactly what it is.

It's the disappointment I have in this country.
Ditto. But I am not disappointed in the election, and so I will abide by it... with the caveats listed above.

What parts of the Constitution do you intend to change, so that you will not have to accept the DULY ELECTED socialist Obama as your President?


You think conservatives are going to rebuild their party and come out fresh and take back the reigns of government.
I think nothing of the kind. I said they MUST do that... not that they WILL do it.


The commies are not going to let that happen.

Now you're starting to realize what happens when people do NOT accept the results of elections, and do NOT abide by the Constitution. Do you really want to be part of that group?

Gaffer
11-05-2008, 02:01 PM
I said nothing about not abiding by the results of the election, nor did I say anything about changing the Constitution. I said he's not my president. That doesn't make him any less the president. I do not respect him in any way. There is nothing I can do about him. I'm stuck with him just like everyone else. And I will work against him in every way I can.


The people you fought against there, were people who didn't think there was a good reason to run a legitimate election or abide by its outcome.

The people I fought against weren't interested in elections. And they had a real permanent way of getting rid of political enemies.


Consider carefully which side you want to be on here.

Not sure what you mean by this.

theHawk
11-05-2008, 02:01 PM
I have too much respect for the Constitution, and the ageless wisdom and shrewd practical truths the Framers put into it, to deny one of its most fiundamental principles: That both the people who vote for AND AGAINST an issue, agree to be bound by the election's outcome regardless, and work to support the decision of the whole once the votes are counted.

But how did this outcome happen? America is a fundamentally conservative country. Most of its citizens would never dream of walking into their neighbor's house, holding him up at gunpoint, and taking his hard-earned money to hand to others "for free". Nor would they ever demand that the neighbor be thrown in jail and lose his land for draining a marsh on that privately held property. Nor would they ever give condoms to their 13-year-old daughters, or encourage their kids to be lazy and wait for government to take care of them. That those same Americans then turn around and vote for government officials who will do exactly those things, remains an enduring mystery.



I think we face another problem on top of the one you pointed out.

The generational gap. A huge new voting block now are the young adults, and a lot of them thirty-something 'Gen X'ers like myself. The problem with my generation is many of them are totally ignorant of the fundamentals that founded this country:individual freedom and self-responsibility. Nor do they understand the importance of the Constitutional rights that protect them, and they most certainly don't understand the danger of socialism and liberalism.

This is a generation that grew up spoiled, and they feel entitled to anything they ask for. If they want to go to college, they shouldn't have to bust their ass at a part time job to help pay their way through, it should just be given to them. If they want a new car, mommy and daddy should buy one for them. This is of course a result of how they were raised by their parents. A generation of parents that didn't want their children to feel any hardships. Parents that felt the best way to show love to their children was through material gifts, and now we are stuck with a young and working class generation that is obsessed with materialism. With the manufactured financial crisis, we have a large voting block that is so afraid to lose its material life its running away from "risky" capitalism to what they perceive as "safe" socialism.

diuretic
11-06-2008, 03:45 AM
The poor bastard can't win, I can see that. You lot on the right call him a socialist, which he isn't. But on the hard left they'll go nuts if he doesn't deliver socialist nirvana in the first six months. Look, ideology drove BushCheney and look what it got you. Obama is a pragmatist, he's into pragmatism, not socialism - his "ism" is pragmat. If he isn't into pragmatism then he won't get a second term and he knows it. He has major problems to resolve and ideology is not the guide to resolve them.

PostmodernProphet
11-06-2008, 06:29 AM
Obama is a pragmatist, he's into pragmatism, not socialism -

????....where do you find evidence to support that?......pragmatists don't do things like cast the sole vote against the Illinois Born Alive Act....it would be illogical for a pragmatist to take an isolated stand on any issue.....

diuretic
11-06-2008, 07:05 AM
????....where do you find evidence to support that?......pragmatists don't do things like cast the sole vote against the Illinois Born Alive Act....it would be illogical for a pragmatist to take an isolated stand on any issue.....

No? Why not?

PostmodernProphet
11-06-2008, 09:44 AM
No? Why not?

do you consider the best way to accomplish your goals is to go against the wishes of everyone else around you?.....

Yurt
11-06-2008, 10:24 AM
The poor bastard can't win, I can see that. You lot on the right call him a socialist, which he isn't. But on the hard left they'll go nuts if he doesn't deliver socialist nirvana in the first six months. Look, ideology drove BushCheney and look what it got you. Obama is a pragmatist, he's into pragmatism, not socialism - his "ism" is pragmat. If he isn't into pragmatism then he won't get a second term and he knows it. He has major problems to resolve and ideology is not the guide to resolve them.

he is going to implement socialism lite...you should read my thread about him and socialism, the truths contained therein will blow your mind

avatar4321
11-06-2008, 11:59 AM
The poor bastard can't win, I can see that. You lot on the right call him a socialist, which he isn't. But on the hard left they'll go nuts if he doesn't deliver socialist nirvana in the first six months. Look, ideology drove BushCheney and look what it got you. Obama is a pragmatist, he's into pragmatism, not socialism - his "ism" is pragmat. If he isn't into pragmatism then he won't get a second term and he knows it. He has major problems to resolve and ideology is not the guide to resolve them.

Ive seen nothing to believe he is a pragmatist. Where do you get that idea?

diuretic
11-06-2008, 07:11 PM
do you consider the best way to accomplish your goals is to go against the wishes of everyone else around you?.....

The best way is to persuade them you're correct.

diuretic
11-06-2008, 07:11 PM
he is going to implement socialism lite...you should read my thread about him and socialism, the truths contained therein will blow your mind

He won't, don't worry about it, not going to happen. What he does need to do is repair the damage.

diuretic
11-06-2008, 07:12 PM
Ive seen nothing to believe he is a pragmatist. Where do you get that idea?

Where did I get that idea? From the evidence I've seen of course, I thought that would be obvious.

Yurt
11-06-2008, 07:28 PM
He won't, don't worry about it, not going to happen. What he does need to do is repair the damage.

what makes you say that....he wants to spread the wealth around

diuretic
11-07-2008, 09:09 AM
what makes you say that....he wants to spread the wealth around

So I read. I'll wait and see what he does.

On edit - put this down to English being a strange language.


"So I read" pronounced as "So I red".

I need that clip from "The Life of Brian" with John Cleese as the Centurion correcting the rebels' Latin :D

Hobbit
11-07-2008, 01:01 PM
So I read. I'll wait and see what he does.

On edit - put this down to English being a strange language.


"So I read" pronounced as "So I red".

I need that clip from "The Life of Brian" with John Cleese as the Centurion correcting the rebels' Latin :D

Ask, and you shall receive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8