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mrg666
03-22-2007, 06:57 PM
FRANKFURT, March 22 — A German judge has stirred a storm of protest here by citing the Koran in turning down a German Muslim woman’s request for a fast-track divorce on the ground that her husband beat her.

In a remarkable ruling that underlines the tension between Muslim customs and European laws, the judge, Christa Datz-Winter, said that the couple came from a Moroccan cultural milieu, in which she said it was common for husbands to beat their wives. The Koran, she wrote, sanctions such physical abuse.

News of the ruling brought swift and sharp condemnation from politicians, legal experts, and Muslim leaders in Germany, many of whom said they were confounded that a German judge would put 7th-century Islamic religious teaching ahead of modern German law in deciding a case involving domestic violence.

The woman’s lawyer, Barbara Becker-Rojczyk, said she decided to publicize the ruling, which was issued in January, after the court refused her request for a new judge. On Wednesday, the court in Frankfurt abruptly removed Judge Datz-Winter from the case, saying it could not justify her reasoning.

“It was terrible for my client,” Ms. Becker-Rojczyk said of the ruling. “This man beat her seriously from the beginning of their marriage. After they separated, he called her and threatened to kill her.”

While legal experts said the ruling was a judicial misstep rather than evidence of a broader trend, it comes at a time of rising tension in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, as authorities in many fields struggle to reconcile Western values with their countries’ burgeoning Muslim minorities.

Last fall, a Berlin opera house canceled performances of a Mozart opera because of security fears. The opera includes a scene that depicts the severed head of the Prophet Muhammad. Stung by charges that it had surrendered its artistic freedom, the opera house staged the opera three months later without incident.

To some here, the divorce court ruling reflects a similar compromise of basic values in the name of cultural sensitivity.

“A judge in Germany has to refer to the constitutional law, which says that human rights are not to be violated,” said Günter Meyer, director of the Center for Research on the Arab World at the University of Mainz. “It’s not her task to interpret the Koran,” Mr. Meyer said of Judge Datz-Winter. “It was an attempt at multi-cultural understanding, but in completely the wrong context.”

Reaction to the decision has been almost as sulfurous as it was to the cancellation of the opera.

“When the Koran is put above the German constitution, I can only say, ‘Good night, Germany,’ ” Ronald Pofalla, general secretary of the main conservative party in the country, the Christian Democratic Union, said to the mass-market paper Bild.

Dieter Wiefelspütz, a member of Parliament from the more liberal Social Democratic Party, said in an interview that he could not recall any court ruling in years that had aroused so much indignation.

Muslim leaders agreed that Muslims living here must be judged by the German legal code. But they were just as offended by what they characterized as the judge’s misinterpretation of a much-debated passage in the Koran governing relations between husbands and wives.

While the verse cited by Judge Datz-Winter does say husbands may beat their wives for disobedience — an interpretation embraced by Wahhabi and other fundamentalist Islamic groups — most mainstream Muslims have long rejected wife-beating as a relic of the medieval age.

“Our prophet never struck a woman, and he is our example,” Ayyub Axel Köhler, the head of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, said in an interview.

The 26-year-old woman in this case, whose name has not been disclosed, was not so fortunate. Born in Germany to a Moroccan family, the woman was married in Morocco in 2001, according to her lawyer, Ms. Becker-Rojczyk. The couple settled in Germany and had two children.

In May 2006, the police were summoned to the couple’s home after a particularly violent incident. At that time, Judge Datz-Winter ordered the husband to move out and stay at least 50 meters (164 feet) away from the home. In the months that followed, her lawyer said, the man threatened to kill his wife.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/22/world/europe/22cnd-germany.html?hp

MtnBiker
03-22-2007, 07:08 PM
A question I posed on March 3rd;

Does the idea of Western women's rights reconcile with Islamic rule?

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=1500



Not really from what I know of the Koran it treats woman about as well as the bible except for the viel being a requirment.

From the article above;

In a remarkable ruling that underlines the tension between Muslim customs and European laws, the judge, Christa Datz-Winter, said that the couple came from a Moroccan cultural milieu, in which she said it was common for husbands to beat their wives. The Koran, she wrote, sanctions such physical abuse.



“It was terrible for my client,” Ms. Becker-Rojczyk said of the ruling. “This man beat her seriously from the beginning of their marriage. After they separated, he called her and threatened to kill her.”


Hmmmmmmm

LiberalNation
03-22-2007, 07:26 PM
Hmmmm, now we have to read it, read the bible and compare the two. The bible does have beating your wife laws in it somewhere I'm bettin. Is it the text that are that much different or the cultures, that is the big question.

mrg666
03-22-2007, 07:26 PM
the gyst of it is going back to when in rome or when in germany
it goes to show that we (the west) are helping differant cultures especialy muslim create there own islam etc
what next thats the worry

mrg666
03-22-2007, 07:28 PM
Hmmmm, now we have to read it, read the bible and compare the two. The bible does have beating your wife laws in it somewhere I'm bettin. Is it the text that are that much different or the cultures, that is the big question.

would the bible be quoted in any none christian country
NO

LiberalNation
03-22-2007, 07:30 PM
No European cowtowing to the muslim religion while deriding the Christian religion is stupid IMO though. In fact the follwers of Islam in this day and age tend to be worse than christians in the nonsecular sense.

mrg666
03-22-2007, 09:35 PM
No European cowtowing to the muslim religion while deriding the Christian religion is stupid IMO though. In fact the follwers of Islam in this day and age tend to be worse than christians in the nonsecular sense.

its happening in the us the same bs just a little slower is all

avatar4321
03-22-2007, 11:43 PM
Hmmmm, now we have to read it, read the bible and compare the two. The bible does have beating your wife laws in it somewhere I'm bettin. Is it the text that are that much different or the cultures, that is the big question.

I suggest you bother reading the Bible sometime, then you wouldn't have to speculate what is and what isnt in it.

Trigg
03-23-2007, 07:47 AM
When the Koran is put above the German constitution, I can only say, ‘Good night, Germany,’ ” Ronald Pofalla, general secretary of the main conservative party in the country, the Christian Democratic Union, said to the mass-market paper Bild.

I completely agree with this statement. Why on earth would the judge do something like that?

LiberalNation
03-23-2007, 09:05 AM
I suggest you bother reading the Bible sometime, then you wouldn't have to speculate what is and what isnt in it.

It's a big book and boring but I'll get through it one of these days.

avatar4321
03-23-2007, 03:12 PM
It's a big book and boring but I'll get through it one of these days.

The only boring parts is the genealogy. its quite interesting.

theHawk
03-23-2007, 03:28 PM
. Why on earth would the judge do something like that?

Because the judge is a liberal moron. Completely disregarding written law and common sense all in the name of "cultural understanding" is a symptom of modern day liberalism.

5stringJeff
03-23-2007, 07:04 PM
Hmmmm, now we have to read it, read the bible and compare the two. The bible does have beating your wife laws in it somewhere I'm bettin. Is it the text that are that much different or the cultures, that is the big question.

Having read the Bible multiple times, I can assure you that husbands are not authorized by it to beat their wives. In fact, in the New Testament, husbands are instructed to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, to the point of laying down their lives for their wifes' sakes.

Yurt
03-23-2007, 09:18 PM
It's a big book and boring but I'll get through it one of these days.

You have outdone yourself:


Hmmmm, now we have to read it, read the bible and compare the two. The bible does have beating your wife laws in it somewhere I'm bettin. Is it the text that are that much different or the cultures, that is the big question.

You make a bet, then back off your stupid claim because it is too much for you to read. If the subject is too BIG, don't bother placing bets. You have made a major fool of yourself. You are willing to spout crap about stuff you have no personal knowledge of, and then when called on it, retort with:



It's a big book and boring but I'll get through it one of these days


Honestly, would you respect a poster that did the same to you?

LiberalNation
03-23-2007, 09:24 PM
Whose talkin respect, nobody respects nobody and I certainitly don't post to try and earn respect. As for my claim, their is a lot of rules in the bible. How to treat slaves, animals, ect, doesn't seem like to far a stretch that woman would be included.

Hobbit
03-23-2007, 10:22 PM
Whose talkin respect, nobody respects nobody and I certainitly don't post to try and earn respect. As for my claim, their is a lot of rules in the bible. How to treat slaves, animals, ect, doesn't seem like to far a stretch that woman would be included.

Yes, it does give rules on how to treat women. The most notable is to love them as Christ loved the church (which is to be willing to die for them, if necessary). You were also not supposed to touch them while they're on their period (I think that's called common sense now :P), because the 'discharge' was considered unclean (lots of things were unclean. Cleansing oneself in ancient Judaism was about as common as Catholic confessional).

Other than that, there aren't a whole lot of rules on how to specifically treat women. There are, however, many stories of strong, independant women, such as the Jewish general Deborah in the book of Judges, the beauty queen turned political activist Esther, and the Canaanite double agent, Rahab. The Bible was way ahead of its time in the liberation of women.