Saving the US auto industry...

[bullypulpit]

Is a matter of national security. Without the industrial base the auto industry provides, the US military...particularly US ground forces...will be deprived of the resources needed to fight and win on the ground. Their safety and their ability to respond effectively to the rapidly changing conditions on the modern battle field will be compromised.

So despite GOP objections and decades of mismanagement on the part of auto industry executives, it behooves Congress to act, and act now, to preserve the industrial base that is the US auto industry.

<center><a href=http://www10.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/opinion/16clark.html?_r=5&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin&oref=slogin>What’s Good for G.M. Is Good for the Army</a> - Maj.Gen.(Ret) Wesley Clark</center>

[Kathianne]

Is a matter of national security. Without the industrial base the auto industry provides, the US military...particularly US ground forces...will be deprived of the resources needed to fight and win on the ground. Their safety and their ability to respond effectively to the rapidly changing conditions on the modern battle field will be compromised.

So despite GOP objections and decades of mismanagement on the part of auto industry executives, it behooves Congress to act, and act now, to preserve the industrial base that is the US auto industry.

<center><a href=http://www10.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/opinion/16clark.html?_r=5&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin&oref=slogin>What’s Good for G.M. Is Good for the Army</a> - Maj.Gen.(Ret) Wesley Clark</center>
BS. The companies can file Chap 11 and reorganize. They'll still be able to produce tanks, etc.

[Sitarro]

BS. The companies can file Chap 11 and reorganize. They'll still be able to produce tanks, etc.

That's right Kath, Bully is trying to save a bunch of useless unions........ news flash, unions make U.S. companies non competitive, screw them like they screw their own members.

Who could possibly give a shit what that politician and pretend military man has to say, Clark is an idiot and for sale, the dems have bought and paid for his whimp ass.

[MtnBiker]

There are several foreign auto factories in the US, all the US military would need to do is have a contract with one or more of them, place a team of Q&A people in each factory and build as much as they want. Simple.

Even if the big 3 go bankrupt the factory assests will still be there, it is not like they will evaporate.

[stephanie]

Democrats and Unions go hand in hand, and the little Marxist owes them BIG TIME..

[red states rule]

Is a matter of national security. Without the industrial base the auto industry provides, the US military...particularly US ground forces...will be deprived of the resources needed to fight and win on the ground. Their safety and their ability to respond effectively to the rapidly changing conditions on the modern battle field will be compromised.

So despite GOP objections and decades of mismanagement on the part of auto industry executives, it behooves Congress to act, and act now, to preserve the industrial base that is the US auto industry.

<center><a href=http://www10.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/opinion/16clark.html?_r=5&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin&oref=slogin>What’s Good for G.M. Is Good for the Army</a> - Maj.Gen.(Ret) Wesley Clark</center>

So it is the fault of management BP? I saw Barney Frank on TV saying he will punish management, and go after people making over $200,000/yr

Yet nobody is taking about the unions, and how they have driven the auto comapnies into the ground.

Nobody is pointing out how the Japanese car companies are doing fine here the America

[April15]

The automakers in the south have pretty much the same benefits and pay as the unionised north. The big difference is the product or should I say the conceived idea of the product. One makes gas hogs that serve no purpose but intimidation while another makes fuel effiecint long lasting cars.
It surly is not the workers, but management, that decides what vehicle is made.

[red states rule]

The automakers in the south have pretty much the same benefits and pay as the unionised north. The big difference is the product or should I say the conceived idea of the product. One makes gas hogs that serve no purpose but intimidation while another makes fuel effiecint long lasting cars.
It surly is not the workers, but management, that decides what vehicle is made.

30% of all GM car sales are paying for Union costs. They will never compete with Toyota, Honda, non-union shops that are flourishing here in the US.

[Hobbit]

The best way to save the U.S. auto industry is to let it fail. All the union contracts will go away and companies that can't save themselves will have all their assets bought up by investors who would rather make good cars cheaply and sell them for a profit than run a welfare state. If we prop up failing businesses, we're only telling the market that they can get away with failing business practices.

And the national security thing is bogus. The M1-A1 Abrams tank is made by General Dynamics, a defense conglomerate, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle is made by another defense conglomerate, BAE Systems Land and Armaments, the new APCs are made by Navistar International Corporation, which makes commercial trucks and school buses, and the Humvee line has already been discontinued by GM. Our defense is not going to be compromised by the failure of businesses that make civilian cars for personal transport.

[red states rule]

The best way to save the U.S. auto industry is to let it fail. All the union contracts will go away and companies that can't save themselves will have all their assets bought up by investors who would rather make good cars cheaply and sell them for a profit than run a welfare state. If we prop up failing businesses, we're only telling the market that they can get away with failing business practices.

And the national security thing is bogus. The M1-A1 Abrams tank is made by General Dynamics, a defense conglomerate, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle is made by another defense conglomerate, BAE Systems Land and Armaments, the new APCs are made by Navistar International Corporation, which makes commercial trucks and school buses, and the Humvee line has already been discontinued by GM. Our defense is not going to be compromised by the failure of businesses that make civilian cars for personal transport.

Let the Big Three file for bankruptcy, restructure, and go non union

Here is one of the big factors as to why they can't compete

http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606

[Mr. P]

The medicine to fix failing business is going to be hard to swallow. There will be a ripple affect in the economy just like there is right now with the real estate market. BUT in 5 yrs after a rebirth the auto industry will come back lean and mean, not fat an lazy like they've been for the last 30 yrs.

That's my 2 cents.

[red states rule]

The medicine to fix failing business is going to be hard to swallow. There will be a ripple affect in the economy just like there is right now with the real estate market. BUT in 5 yrs after a rebirth the auto industry will come back lean and mean, not fat an lazy like they've been for the last 30 yrs.

That's my 2 cents.

It's a bailout of the unions not the auto companies

[crin63]

My very first job as a union construction worker was at General Motors, Van Nuys where they made the Camaros and Firebirds.

Even at 17 years old I was appalled at what I saw. The UAW employees were sleeping in cardboard boxes throughout the night while being paid so they could go work their day jobs.

I had to repair the sabotage created by UAW people who would destroy equipment so everyone could go home for next 12-24 hours with full pay. I was simply amazed that all one person had to do was put 2 screws in the interior of every car that came by while someone else was on the other side putting in the other 2 screws.

Watching the UAW people was actually a good thing for me because I refused to act like them. They disgusted me. I was a union member but I worked my butt off to make my employers money.

Thats not to mention the UAW people tried to kill or injure me intentionally (according to the engineers) for interfering with their primary means of sabotage.

[Mr. P]

It's a bailout of the unions not the auto companies

IMO it would be one in the same..that's why they need to deal with it alone cept for the option of a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, there should be no bailout.

[red states rule]

The union workers are overpaid for what they do. It is bankrupting their companies. Thats the problem. Noones saying don't pay them a fair wage or even give them healthcare. What they are getting now is an enourmous amout of overkill that is hurting the auto-industry.

The union thugs have accomplished what they alsways accomplish - they destroy the companies they infest, and rape their workers for as much of their money as they can

I do not care what industry it is; NO BAIL OUTS!

GM and the UAW need to get to the table and work it out. If GM fails the UAW will suffer.

[Binky]

The automakers in the south have pretty much the same benefits and pay as the unionised north. The big difference is the product or should I say the conceived idea of the product. One makes gas hogs that serve no purpose but intimidation while another makes fuel effiecint long lasting cars.
It surly is not the workers, but management, that decides what vehicle is made.


Actually, the consumers pester and pester the auto companies, wanting them to produce larger and larger vehicles. And because of this you now see Hummers on the road. People wanted to drive what was orginally made for the military.

The companies have been trying to please the consumer by giving them what they've asked for. And since gas jumped higher, they now want to blame the auto companies for producing big cars. Well, duh! You can't have it both ways. Either accept the smaller, compact and cramped vehicles, or enjoy the ride in your huge one. Either way, so long as America has it's head up it's ass and is dependant on foreign oil, gas is going to rise higher and higher. And on occasion, when the oil companies see an opportunity arise, they are going to jump the price to new heights.

[red states rule]

Actually, the consumers pester and pester the auto companies, wanting them to produce larger and larger vehicles. And because of this you now see Hummers on the road. People wanted to drive what was orginally made for the military.

The companies have been trying to please the consumer by giving them what they've asked for. And since gas jumped higher, they now want to blame the auto companies for producing big cars. Well, duh! You can't have it both ways. Either accept the smaller, compact and cramped vehicles, or enjoy the ride in your huge one. Either way, so long as America has it's head up it's ass and is dependant on foreign oil, gas is going to rise higher and higher. And on occasion, when the oil companies see an opportunity arise, they are going to jump the price to new heights.

Does the public want the same people who gave us Amtrak, to decide what types of cars are made, in what quantity, how much they cost, and what their MPG shall be?

[MtnBiker]

The automakers in the south have pretty much the same benefits and pay as the unionised north. The big difference is the product or should I say the conceived idea of the product. One makes gas hogs that serve no purpose but intimidation while another makes fuel effiecint long lasting cars.
It surly is not the workers, but management, that decides what vehicle is made.

12 of the top 20 vehicles are from the Big 3;




Following is a list of the top-20 selling vehicles, ranked by total units.

RANK VEHICLE 2008 2007 '07 RANK %Chng
1 Ford F-Series P/U 235,924 290,282 1 -18.7
2 Toyota Camry 198,309 193,900 3 +2.3
3 Chevy Silverado-C/K P/U 197,030 265,941 2 -25.9
4 Honda Accord 166,158 153,431 6 +8.3
5 Honda Civic 164,994 137,288 8 +20.2
6 Toyota Corolla 152,308 165,722 4 -8.1
7 Nissan Altima 133,465 114,318 9 +16.7
8 Chevrolet Impala 122,281 144,541 7 -15.4
9 Dodge Ram P/U 112,795 154,143 5 -26.8
10 Ford Focus 105,499 77,732 15 +35.7
11 Chevrolet Cobalt 93,362 79,257 14 +17.8
12 Honda CR-V 89,017 84,464 11 +5.4
13 Toyota Prius 79,675 76,747 16 +3.8
14 Ford Escape 76,966 73,058 17 +5.3
15 Chevrolet Malibu 74,925 59,627 26 +25.7
16 Ford Fusion 73,197 66,260 20 +10.5
17 GM Pontiac G6 71,062 59,063 28 +20.3
18 GMC Sierra P/U 70,765 84,106 12 -15.9
19 Toyota Tundra 66,278 61,113 23 +8.5
20 Ford Econoline/Club Wagon 63,869 80,641 13 -20.


http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/06/04/088884.html

April15, are you attempting to make the arguement that management of the Big 3 want to produce "gas hogs that serve no purpose but intimidation" and not vecihles that sell?

[Binky]

Does the public want the same people who gave us Amtrak, to decide what types of cars are made, in what quantity, how much they cost, and what their MPG shall be?


Well, once the companies stopped making the larger ones and then switched to smaller ones for years, people were tired of them and wanting the larger ones again. GM wouldn't have spent the time and money into making the Hummer if the consumer hadn't wanted it marketed. It's too huge. Too expensive and the gas is outrageous to fill the tank. Given that, the only reason for making it and marketing it is because the public WANTED it.

Like any other product out there, the time it takes to make and market it, the cost of materials, wages etc. is all going to result in overblown prices. Just the way it is. They all have to figure in a profit margine, whatever that may be, otherwise, what would be the point of being in business?

Greed is at the bottom of it all. Greed for more money and greed of the gotta haves to show off what they've got.

[red states rule]

Well, once the companies stopped making the larger ones and then switched to smaller ones for years, people were tired of them and wanting the larger ones again. GM wouldn't have spent the time and money into making the Hummer if the consumer hadn't wanted it marketed. It's too huge. Too expensive and the gas is outrageous to fill the tank. Given that, the only reason for making it and marketing it is because the public WANTED it.

Like any other product out there, the time it takes to make and market it, the cost of materials, wages etc. is all going to result in overblown prices. Just the way it is. They all have to figure in a profit margine, whatever that may be, otherwise, what would be the point of being in business?

Greed is at the bottom of it all. Greed for more money and greed of the gotta haves to show off what they've got.

Mostly it is greed on the part of the unions. The Big Three spend more more on retirees each month than they do on the ones actually working, they also spend more on health insurance than they do sheet metal.

Look at how well the electric car sold. Last I heard the production was discontinued due to lack mof sales

This is an attempt by the left to oversee the auto industry and force them to make cars that people do not want

[Sitarro]

Well, once the companies stopped making the larger ones and then switched to smaller ones for years, people were tired of them and wanting the larger ones again. GM wouldn't have spent the time and money into making the Hummer if the consumer hadn't wanted it marketed. It's too huge. Too expensive and the gas is outrageous to fill the tank. Given that, the only reason for making it and marketing it is because the public WANTED it.

Like any other product out there, the time it takes to make and market it, the cost of materials, wages etc. is all going to result in overblown prices. Just the way it is. They all have to figure in a profit margine, whatever that may be, otherwise, what would be the point of being in business?

Greed is at the bottom of it all. Greed for more money and greed of the gotta haves to show off what they've got.

If American car companies would take a Camry or an Accord and produce cars just like them, why wouldn't Americans buy them? They certainly buy them now. It would also be nice if they would hire some designers that would build cars that weren't so damn ugly, who wants to drive an ugly car? The only reason Chevrolet has stayed in business is the sales to rental car companies and black people......... I don't know a white person that has bought one in decades..... except Camaros, Vettes and trucks. That huge, obnoxious gold emblem is enough reason not to buy one.

Check the total number of real Hummers sold, I think you will find that there aren't that many. The Hummer 2 and 3 are both on a GM chassis, just different sheet metal. The Hummer 2 is a Tahoe and the 3 is a Chevy Colorado.

[Mr. P]

12 of the top 20 vehicles are from the Big 3;



http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/06/04/088884.html

April15, are you attempting to make the arguement that management of the Big 3 want to produce "gas hogs that serve no purpose but intimidation" and not vecihles that sell?

But only 7 are in the + range. People don't buy junk or overpriced products.

[Des]

This is a tricky thing, so I may be "wrong", but here's my opinion:

We depend on our current transportation system to survive. We need trucks, automobiles, etc, to drive ourselves and supplies...our homes are located off roads, our food supplies are...

There exists technology to make cars that are 100 percent solar powered, powered by the wheels momentum (as the wheel turns around, it creates electricity, constantly re-charging the vehicle), electric, etc...but our entire system is dependant on the vehicles we have now and oil. If we eliminate our need for oil in cars, oil companies will naturally suffer. We can't do it 100 percent (asphault (sp), plastics, etc), but without gas powering our vehicles,there won't be a market for an energy source. I'm guessing that until those who control the current energy sources tap into the profitability of another energy source, we are all s.o.l. Even if those technologies already exist.

[Hobbit]

This is a tricky thing, so I may be "wrong", but here's my opinion:

We depend on our current transportation system to survive. We need trucks, automobiles, etc, to drive ourselves and supplies...our homes are located off roads, our food supplies are...

There exists technology to make cars that are 100 percent solar powered, powered by the wheels momentum (as the wheel turns around, it creates electricity, constantly re-charging the vehicle), electric, etc...but our entire system is dependant on the vehicles we have now and oil. If we eliminate our need for oil in cars, oil companies will naturally suffer. We can't do it 100 percent (asphault (sp), plastics, etc), but without gas powering our vehicles,there won't be a market for an energy source. I'm guessing that until those who control the current energy sources tap into the profitability of another energy source, we are all s.o.l. Even if those technologies already exist.

First problem: A solar car's second worst enemy:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40386000/jpg/_40386645_cloud_ap_203.jpg

The second worst enemy is the ludicrously low output of solar panels even when the it's high noon.

Second:
powered by the wheels momentum (as the wheel turns around, it creates electricity, constantly re-charging the vehicle)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_conservation_of_energy

That's a perpetual motion machine, a physical impossibility.

Third: If it's some big conspiracy to rely so much on foreign oil, then how come pretty much every car company, American or otherwise, is rolling out prototype electric cars with ranges in the hundreds of miles? They're also designing models with easily changed batteries. That way, gas stations could keep charged batteries on hand and trade them for the empty batteries, for a fee, when somebody goes on a long trip.

This whole thing is drive by market demand. Trust me, if we had feasible technology currently available to make economical cars that didn't run on gasoline, we'd be selling them. The fact that so many technologies are in development should tell everyone that they're in high demand, and car companies care way too much about selling cars to care whether the oil industry takes a hit.

[April15]

30% of all GM car sales are paying for Union costs. They will never compete with Toyota, Honda, non-union shops that are flourishing here in the US.I would like to see some kind of back up for that. Do you have any?

[Des]

First problem: A solar car's second worst enemy:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40386000/jpg/_40386645_cloud_ap_203.jpg

The second worst enemy is the ludicrously low output of solar panels even when the it's high noon.

Second:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_conservation_of_energy

That's a perpetual motion machine, a physical impossibility.

Third: If it's some big conspiracy to rely so much on foreign oil, then how come pretty much every car company, American or otherwise, is rolling out prototype electric cars with ranges in the hundreds of miles? They're also designing models with easily changed batteries. That way, gas stations could keep charged batteries on hand and trade them for the empty batteries, for a fee, when somebody goes on a long trip.

This whole thing is drive by market demand. Trust me, if we had feasible technology currently available to make economical cars that didn't run on gasoline, we'd be selling them. The fact that so many technologies are in development should tell everyone that they're in high demand, and car companies care way too much about selling cars to care whether the oil industry takes a hit.

I swear to god I saw a man on the discovery channel who built a car that re-charged the battery as the wheels turned around...it was possible because it was charging and running off a battery, a secondary power source.

[red states rule]

I would like to see some kind of back up for that. Do you have any?

snip

The Detroit automaker spent $3.3 billion for retiree health care in 2006, a tab GM does not break down by salaried or hourly status. The automaker has 432,000 retirees, of which 100,000 are salaried.

The increases differ depending on the type of plan. But for most salaried retirees covered with an Enhanced PPO plan, the changes will cover an increase of plan deductibles from $500 to $750 for an individual and from $1,000 to $1,500 for a family. Also, it was announced that prescription co-pays for generic drugs will double from $5 to $10 for a drug filled at a retail location and from $10 to $20 for a drug ordered through the mail. Additionally, out-of-pocket maximums will surge from $1,500 to $2,000 for an individual and from $3,000 to $4,000 for a family.

Co-pays for preferred and nonpreferred drugs also will increase, and for the first time, the automaker will require retirees taking certain drugs to pay a co-pay higher than the one it has set for nonpreferred brand name medications, the report continued.

The changes are not sitting well with some retirees, who feel "cast adrift," said Richard Dreist, who retired from GM in 1992 after 30 1/2 years. Dreist is appealing the automaker's decision to slash coverage for Cialis, a drug he takes following a bout with prostate cancer. "It's a quality of life issue," he said.

Dee Edington, the director of the Health Management Research Center, at the University of Michigan, has this to say: "From the retirees' point of view, it doesn't seem like a very loyal program. On the other hand, it is a trend that GM is following."

To further cut costs, the automaker will offer coverage for retirees who are eligible but do not enroll for Medicare Part B. It will only pay the amount Medicare would pay for care covered under Part B. Care covered include durable medical equipment and limited services thus leaving the retiree responsible for the rest of the bill.

But the automaker has a slice of good news for the upcoming year. GM will extend the number of days for which salaried retirees can get prescriptions filled at a retail pharmacy, from 21 to 30 days at a time.

"It really irritated people that they could only get three weeks at a time," Bunker noted. "Retirees should be happy about that."

GM has to take its plan seriously otherwise the company will be outpaced by other automakers. Other automakers like the maker of Dodge brake dust shields also are serious with their restructure plans

http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/print_article.php?articleId=59020

[April15]

Looks like bankruptcy would be best answer.

[red states rule]

Looks like bankruptcy would be best answer.

Well, one liberal down - only 49 million more to go

[Mr. P]

Looks like bankruptcy would be best answer.

Without a doubt. If they want to continue business in the USA anyway. Then produce a competitive product at a competitive price..they'll be fine.

[5stringJeff]

Bankruptcy is the only way for the Detroit Three to go on. It will be painful, for all involved, but for the Detroit Three's sake, they should hope they can get rid of the millstone around their neck that is the UAW.
Bankruptcy and the subsequent reorganization worked for the American airline industry, and it will work for the automakers. And there's no extra bailout money required!!!

[red states rule]

It is not hard to figure out why the Big Three are in trouble

snip

The Big Three say they are providing healthcare coverage for about 2 million current and retired workers and their dependents. By contrast, they contend, foreign automakers that have set up plants in the U.S. – manned almost exclusively with non-union workers – have about 1,200 American retirees on their books.

The American companies also are trying to cut labor costs. GM says it pays its workers an average of $73 an hour in wages and pension and healthcare benefits. Toyota pays its U.S. workers an average of $48 an hour, GM says.

Although payroll and retiree costs have contributed to the U.S. automakers’ troubles, missteps by management also have played a role.

The American companies rely on big-ticket sport utility vehicles and pickups for much of their profits, and sales of the big vehicles plummeted when gas prices soared three years ago. Japanese automakers were able to grab market share by offering consumers a lineup of fuel-efficient vehicles, including gasoline-electric hybrids.

GM’s U.S. market share this year is 23%, down from 44% in the late 1970s.

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/sep/27/business/fi-gm27

[April15]

Without a doubt. If they want to continue business in the USA anyway. Then produce a competitive product at a competitive price..they'll be fine.Ain't that the truth!

[red states rule]

Ain't that the truth!

That is not what Barney Frank and Co want to do. They want to tell Detriot what to produce, and "punish management"

[avatar4321]

The federal government shouldnt be bailing out people, industries, or financial institutions. I don't care if we have to go through some tough times. Its better to clean out the waste then pretend that everything is alright every time we slap a trillion dollar band aid on our problems. Because eventually our debts will be due and we are going to end up in a darkness far worse that we might face if we take the hard route now.

[red states rule]

The federal government shouldnt be bailing out people, industries, or financial institutions. I don't care if we have to go through some tough times. Its better to clean out the waste then pretend that everything is alright every time we slap a trillion dollar band aid on our problems. Because eventually our debts will be due and we are going to end up in a darkness far worse that we might face if we take the hard route now.

:clap::clap:

All the politicans are doing is rewarding bad behaviour. In exchange we will get more of the same bad behaviour

If the government starts deciding how these companies will function - things will get more screwed up

Does Fannie and Freddie ring a bell? Government interference started the downward spriral we are in right now

[Mr. P]

Just a personal word on unions..When Reagan busted PATCO (Air traffic controllers union) in the early 80's it made my job more difficult but only for about one yr. but it was the best thing to happen in the world of aviation!

The system sucked with the union idiots at the controls. They were arrogant assholes protected by unions and they knew it. Once they were gone and everyone (pilots and controllers) did their job things were great.