Socialist heathcare the way to go in U.S.

[stephanie]

:eek:

Liberal conscience

Monica Krause
Commentary
Friday, November 21, 2008
It seems many people are afraid of socialism. But following the outcome of the election, I’ve found many are ill-informed about what socialism is, so I’d like to clear things up and show people there is nothing to fear.

Socialism is a social organization in which the government owns and operates the means of production.

Its opposite is capitalism, where private companies and individuals control the economy.

Socialism contends that capitalist societies unjustly concentrate wealth and power within a small group; thus, socialism is an attempt to create a more equal society to live in.

That’s the technical definition. For the United States it would mean the government controlling more institutions than it does now. America is one of the least socialist of the developed nations, but expanding the government’s influence in society may prove helpful.

President-elect Barack Obama will not make America completely socialist, and it is important to remember the socialist institutions we already have, such as police, fire departments and public education. These are some of our most needed and treasured institutions.

Some common fears I’ve heard include Americans being forced to have certain jobs or go to certain schools by a socialist government. That is simply untrue, and claims like these are a clear attempt to invoke fear out of ignorance.

The biggest socialist institution America needs is universal healthcare. We are the only industrialized nation not to guarantee healthcare to its citizens.

Nearly all European and Asian nations have some degree of government-run healthcare, as do Canada, Australia and others.

One of the tools political scientists use to measure countries’ development is the Human Development Index. It combines data on life expectancy, income and educational attainment into a single score.

The U.S. is ranked 12th in this year’s data, lagging behind socialist countries such as Sweden, Canada and the Netherlands. One reason is the average American’s life expectancy is years shorter than life expectancy in these countries, whose better health is attributed to their mandated healthcare.

As the world’s richest country, the United States should not be so far down the list. It is an embarrassment to our nation, and it shows capitalism is not the best way to preserve the life and health of our people.

Healthcare is a human right that we must honor here and abroad. This small step toward socialism will not only help our citizens, but also forge a better image to the world.


from..
http://www.uecrescent.org/articles/stories/public/200811/21/4kyy_forum.html

[Little-Acorn]

Thanks for the Michael Moore viewpoint. The roll of it in the bathroom had just about run out.

Actually, the article wasn't completely bad. I found some sentences that were not lies:

It seems many people are afraid of socialism.

I’ve found many are ill-informed about what socialism is

These are some of our most needed and treasured institutions.

Nearly all European and Asian nations have some degree of government-run healthcare, as do Canada, Australia and others.

The above sentences were unique in the article, by virtue of their being true. I had to separate the third one from its antecedant about police and fire departments being socialist, to include it in this group.

[Joe Steel]

No one is proposing a government-operated healthcare system. Even the most progressive commentators have proposed, at most, a single-payer system. That's just a big insurance company.

[avatar4321]

No one is proposing a government-operated healthcare system. Even the most progressive commentators have proposed, at most, a single-payer system. That's just a big insurance company.

Why should their be a single payer? What does government need to interefer in any industry or run any industry?

BTW there are alot of people who are ignorant about what socialism is. They are called socialists. Socialists are people who read Marx. Anti-socialists are those who understand Marx

[Joe Steel]

Why should their be a single payer? What does government need to interefer in any industry or run any industry?



The US government runs Medicare at a much lower cost than private industry runs similar programs. If every American were covered by Medicare (the single-payer) we'd all get healthcare at a much lower cost. You could still use the same providers but you wouldn't pay as much. That's because the principles of insurance would operate at their most efficient levels.

[darin]

...Anyone try to get care thru the VA medical system lately? That's the model of what nationalized medicine IS.

[avatar4321]

The US government runs Medicare at a much lower cost than private industry runs similar programs. If every American were covered by Medicare (the single-payer) we'd all get healthcare at a much lower cost. You could still use the same providers but you wouldn't pay as much. That's because the principles of insurance would operate at their most efficient levels.

got you, slave labor.

[Nukeman]

The US government runs Medicare at a much lower cost than private industry runs similar programs. If every American were covered by Medicare (the single-payer) we'd all get healthcare at a much lower cost. You could still use the same providers but you wouldn't pay as much. That's because the principles of insurance would operate at their most efficient levels.Do you know HOW they are able to run at lower cost??? If not I will be happy to tell you. Ohh by the way Mdicaid does an even BETTER job at saving cost as well. You tell me how they are able to do this and then I will tell you how they REALLY do it.....

[Joe Steel]

Do you know HOW they are able to run at lower cost??? If not I will be happy to tell you. Ohh by the way Mdicaid does an even BETTER job at saving cost as well. You tell me how they are able to do this and then I will tell you how they REALLY do it.....

One way is by not paying administrators extravagant salaries and bonuses or giving them extravagant perks. Another is not incurring marketing costs. Benefiiciaries shouldn't have to pay for that kind of stuff.

[Nukeman]

One way is by not paying administrators extravagant salaries and bonuses or giving them extravagant perks. Another is not incurring marketing costs. Benefiiciaries shouldn't have to pay for that kind of stuff.
You know those are a couple of "good reasons", but that doesn't scratch the surface behind why they really "save" money.

TRY AGAIN, this time come up with the REAL reasons.....

[crin63]

I expect it will end up like Canada's healthcare system.

[Joe Steel]

You know those are a couple of "good reasons", but that doesn't scratch the surface behind why they really "save" money.

TRY AGAIN, this time come up with the REAL reasons.....

Medicare's G&A expenses are about a third of similiar private plans. That's a big savings.

[darin]

have you tried to get health care from the VA health care system, Steel? Any reason why socialized Medicine would run inherently smoother?

[Joe Steel]

have you tried to get health care from the VA health care system, Steel? Any reason why socialized Medicine would run inherently smoother?

You don't understand the issue. No one is proposing government-furnished healthcare. The plans being proposed look for ways to pay the same providers we have now.

[Nukeman]

Medicare's G&A expenses are about a third of similiar private plans. That's a big savings.
Why do you suppose that is???

You have yet to actually answer the question as to HOW they are able to save this money........

If you don't know just admit it and be done done with it....

[Nukeman]

Joe, are you familiar CMS? How they operate, and what they actually do????

[darin]

You don't understand the issue. No one is proposing government-furnished healthcare. The plans being proposed look for ways to pay the same providers we have now.

I'm drawing you towards understanding how a national healthcare system is administered, NOT where the service is provided and by whom.

[crin63]

Here's how socialized medicine works in Canada:

My friend is down here right now from Canada because his wife was fainting, has no energy, dizziness and other problems that her doctor in Canada said she needs immediate testing and treatment for. So she is scheduled for testing in March. He had to bring her down here so she could get testing done now and begin treatment.

He has to go back up for knee replacement on Dec. 6th after a 9 month wait. If he missed that date it would be another 9 month wait. He has to leave his wife here while he goes back up for his surgery.

When they botched his eye surgery and all but blinded him they said he needed immediate surgery to fix the surgery so he was only blind for 4 months before they could get him back in for surgery.

Thats how socialized medicine is working in Canada.

[Joe Steel]

Why do you suppose that is???

You have yet to actually answer the question as to HOW they are able to save this money........

If you don't know just admit it and be done done with it....

I've already told you. What part didn't you understand?

[Joe Steel]

Joe, are you familiar CMS? How they operate, and what they actually do????

Certainly.

[Joe Steel]

I'm drawing you towards understanding how a national healthcare system is administered, NOT where the service is provided and by whom.

Then why bother with the VA? They provide service.

[Trigg]

Here's how socialized medicine works in Canada:

My friend is down here right now from Canada because his wife was fainting, has no energy, dizziness and other problems that her doctor in Canada said she needs immediate testing and treatment for. So she is scheduled for testing in March. He had to bring her down here so she could get testing done now and begin treatment.

He has to go back up for knee replacement on Dec. 6th after a 9 month wait. If he missed that date it would be another 9 month wait. He has to leave his wife here while he goes back up for his surgery.

When they botched his eye surgery and all but blinded him they said he needed immediate surgery to fix the surgery so he was only blind for 4 months before they could get him back in for surgery.

Thats how socialized medicine is working in Canada.

My oldest sister lives in Finland and it's the same way there. She waited 3 months for the mobile MRI machine.

She called me after bambam won and asked if we would be moving to Finland. I told her that soon enough we'll have the same crappy healthcare they have, no reason to move.

[Said1]

4 weeks ago, my daughter had a really BAD skin infection. I brought her to the hospital ER, she was seen in less than 1 hour. A doctor from the hospital called me the next day (late am) to say the swab test came back mrsa positive and she needed my pharmacies phone number to call in another prescription. Two days later, our family doctor's office called to schedule a follow up appointment for the following week, just to be safe - the hospital contacted them. I was actually impressed with that since I've heard health care here is so horrible.

The eye disease specialist called me two months ago so he could reassess the eye condition I have and discuss possible surgical options. I was impressed with that as well given that health care here sucks. I've been lucky. Others haven't. My friend had to go for an MRI at 2am. My mother had a heart attack while getting routine surgery on her ankle. This could have happened anywhere. Horror stories abound, boarders don't make much difference.

[Nukeman]

I've already told you. What part didn't you understand?YOU haven't told squat!! YOU gave 2 little minor points and that is it YOU obviously DO NOT understand the full story..


Certainly.Please elaborate, and tell us how they work and how they save money for medicare/medicaid!!


And don't give you patent one line answer and BS you usualy do...

[Joe Steel]

YOU haven't told squat!! YOU gave 2 little minor points and that is it YOU obviously DO NOT understand the full story..

Please elaborate, and tell us how they work and how they save money for medicare/medicaid!!


And don't give you patent one line answer and BS you usualy do...

All you've done is try to make us think you know stuff. What is it?

[Nukeman]

All you've done is try to make us think you know stuff. What is it?Not realy, I am giving YOU an oppotunity to inform all of us how the government is able to manage a "insurance" system better than the private sector.

For the record Joe, I deal with CMS, medicare/medicaid, self pay, and private insurance every working day! I am just curious as to how much YOU work with them or have you just googled a few terms. Since YOU profess to know so much how they work and operate I want to know from you HOW they are able to save all this money and operate so much better than private insurance....

[Nukeman]

All you've done is try to make us think you know stuff. What is it?
Tell ya what Joe i will give you a hint, look at the "balanced budget act" of 1996. It is a start!!!! You probably won't see how this affected hospitals but give it a try!!!!

[darin]

Then why bother with the VA? They provide service.

They are a very good example of a Government ADMINISTERED health care system. Doctors - trained doctors - provide the service. The problem isn't with the service - it's with the timelines, budgets, and availabillity of service...all aspects of how the system is designed, managed, and who holds oversight.

[Nukeman]

They are a very good example of a Government ADMINISTERED health care system. Doctors - trained doctors - provide the service. The problem isn't with the service - it's with the timelines, budgets, and availabillity of service...all aspects of how the system is designed, managed, and who holds oversight.Personally I feel the VA system should be removed, all hospitals and inventory should be sold. It would be far cheaper and better for ALL veterans if they were given a insurance policy that was accepted ANYWHERE. The overhead of the VA system is astronomical. The amount of money it takes to operate just ONE hospital is enough to administer a plan to millions of veterans.....

[Joe Steel]

Tell ya what Joe i will give you a hint, look at the "balanced budget act" of 1996. It is a start!!!! You probably won't see how this affected hospitals but give it a try!!!!

Either make an argument or be quiet.

[Nukeman]

Either make an argument or be quiet.

Your the one that made the statement that the Feds can run an insurance system BETTER and cheaper than the private sector!!! Back it up!!! if you can? If you can't just admit it and I will explain to you how they are able to do this. of course YOU won't like/believe it, or accuse everyone of lying!!!!

I have 20 years of hospital experience in most levels of management. this is what I live and breath every day

[Joe Steel]

Your the one that made the statement that the Feds can run an insurance system BETTER and cheaper than the private sector!!! Back it up!!! if you can? If you can't just admit it and I will explain to you how they are able to do this. of course YOU won't like/believe it, or accuse everyone of lying!!!!

I have 20 years of hospital experience in most levels of management. this is what I live and breath every day

Let's see some of it then. Make an argument or be quiet.

[darin]

Personally I feel the VA system should be removed, all hospitals and inventory should be sold. It would be far cheaper and better for ALL veterans if they were given a insurance policy that was accepted ANYWHERE. The overhead of the VA system is astronomical. The amount of money it takes to operate just ONE hospital is enough to administer a plan to millions of veterans.....

Absolutely - Was it Hobbit who said 'show me one thing the Govt can do better than Private industry and that will be something that requires armed/force/etc to accomplish"

[Joe Steel]

They are a very good example of a Government ADMINISTERED health care system. Doctors - trained doctors - provide the service. The problem isn't with the service - it's with the timelines, budgets, and availabillity of service...all aspects of how the system is designed, managed, and who holds oversight.

The VA is a very good system, the best in the country according to some.


Study after study puts the VA system at the very top for fewer medical errors, for effective treatments, for lower costs and for patient satisfaction. And the VA delivers all of this for at least $1,500 less per year per patient than Medicare.

Veterans Affairs Healthcare System No. 1 (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=3991225&page=1)

[darin]

have you tried to secure care thru the VA system? The way the VA is run is a joke. It's better than 'no' care, but if you (and others) want to decide it's "GREAT" or even a model, be careful what you wish for.

[Joe Steel]

have you tried to secure care thru the VA system? The way the VA is run is a joke. It's better than 'no' care, but if you (and others) want to decide it's "GREAT" or even a model, be careful what you wish for.

Somebody likes it. I've talked with guys who receive care there. They have no complaints; or, at least, no significant complaints.

[Nukeman]

Let's see some of it then. Make an argument or be quiet.
YOU made the argument. BACK IT UP!!!!


I know how they operate at a reduced cost. It has nothing to do with administrative savings........... Wait let me clarify, it has VERY VERY little to do with what they pay their employees....


YOU haven't made an attempt to justify your stance on this subject! I will ask you again what is YOUR expertise in CMS medicare/medicaid, or insurance payment fot that matter.....

[Nukeman]

Somebody likes it. I've talked with guys who receive care there. They have no complaints; or, at least, no significant complaints.Just don't try to recieve after hours care. Most VA's have a NO overtime rule. Unfortunatly accidents and sickness are not relligated to the 9-5 time frame......

[darin]

Somebody likes it. I've talked with guys who receive care there. They have no complaints; or, at least, no significant complaints.

I don't complain about the care I get from the VA - however, I also don't mind waiting 3 months for a 10 minute appointment, or 2 months for medical devices I use to walk.

[Joe Steel]

I know how they operate at a reduced cost. It has nothing to do with administrative savings........... Wait let me clarify, it has VERY VERY little to do with what they pay their employees....

Fine.

Make an argument or be quiet.

[avatar4321]

Either make an argument or be quiet.

Well if you applied this statement to yourself youd never be able to talk.

[Joe Steel]

Well if you applied this statement to yourself youd never be able to talk.

Prove it.

Make an argument or be quiet.

[Nukeman]

Fine.

Make an argument or be quiet.YOU have NOT proven or even attempted to prove YOUR point.

I will make my counter argument as soon as YOU put forth the effort of an argument. YOU have not supplied any information regarding the ways that CMS run healthcare payments or how their SOP runs.

YOU have given NOTHING yet you want an argument from me. Untill I know what YOU know, you will dismiss everything I have to say as "not true" or your favorite "you don't know what your talking about".

I have FIRST HAND knowledge of the type of practices CMS uses and how they "work" the system..... DO YOU???? :poke:

[Joe Steel]

YOU have NOT proven or even attempted to prove YOUR point.

I will make my counter argument as soon as YOU put forth the effort of an argument. YOU have not supplied any information regarding the ways that CMS run healthcare payments or how their SOP runs.

YOU have given NOTHING yet you want an argument from me. Untill I know what YOU know, you will dismiss everything I have to say as "not true" or your favorite "you don't know what your talking about".

I have FIRST HAND knowledge of the type of practices CMS uses and how they "work" the system..... DO YOU???? :poke:

You keep telling us how much you know but you haven't proven anything. All we've heard so far is puffery.

You're the challenger. Make an argument or be quiet.

[Nukeman]

You keep telling us how much you know but you haven't proven anything. All we've heard so far is puffery.

You're the challenger. Make an argument or be quiet.NO your the one that stated the government runs insurance BETTER than the private sector. I asked you for proof and how they are able to do that. YOU have not provided anything at this time. I think it is because YOU have NOTHING to back up your supposed argument (that you haven't even supplied yet).

I haven't made statement one about how they do what they do. so how have I supplied you with "puffery". I haven't even given you the reasons why they don't spend as much as a private sector.....

[Joe Steel]

NO your the one that stated the government runs insurance BETTER than the private sector. I asked you for proof and how they are able to do that. YOU have not provided anything at this time. I think it is because YOU have NOTHING to back up your supposed argument (that you haven't even supplied yet).

I haven't made statement one about how they do what they do. so how have I supplied you with "puffery". I haven't even given you the reasons why they don't spend as much as a private sector.....

That's right.

In fact, you haven't given us anything but puffery about how smart you are and how much you know. Maybe you should change your name to Marshmallow Man

[Nukeman]

That's right.

In fact, you haven't given us anything but puffery about how smart you are and how much you know. Maybe you should change your name to Marshmallow Man
Mybe you should change your name to JOE DONTKNOWSHIT.... But I sure as hell like to pretend I do because everyone else is soo stupid......

[Nukeman]

still waiting for YOUR proof as to how they save money Joe... You going to provide that or not????

[avatar4321]

Prove it.

Make an argument or be quiet.

You just proved it for me.

[Joe Steel]

You just proved it for me.

That you're an empty vessel -- just noise?

It was easy.

[emmett]

The US government runs Medicare at a much lower cost than private industry runs similar programs. If every American were covered by Medicare (the single-payer) we'd all get healthcare at a much lower cost. You could still use the same providers but you wouldn't pay as much. That's because the principles of insurance would operate at their most efficient levels.


Ah................Joe! Joe! Joe! Calm down son!


Ok read carefully. Medicare is subsidized with tax money. In addition, government hospitals give reduced prices to medicare/medicaid recipiants. Of course it is ran at a cheaper rate than private.


Do I really need to explain this?

[Joe Steel]

Ah................Joe! Joe! Joe! Calm down son!


Ok read carefully. Medicare is subsidized with tax money. In addition, government hospitals give reduced prices to medicare/medicaid recipiants. Of course it is ran at a cheaper rate than private.


Do I really need to explain this?

You might work on understanding it first.

Start with this:

General and administrative expense for Medicare is a small fraction of G & A for private health plans.

[Nukeman]

That's right.

In fact, you haven't given us anything but puffery about how smart you are and how much you know. Maybe you should change your name to Marshmallow ManNot to beat a dead horse, but you have yet to tell us how Medicare/Medicaid save money over other insurance companies....?????:poke:

[DragonStryk72]

The US government runs Medicare at a much lower cost than private industry runs similar programs. If every American were covered by Medicare (the single-payer) we'd all get healthcare at a much lower cost. You could still use the same providers but you wouldn't pay as much. That's because the principles of insurance would operate at their most efficient levels.

Have you ever read a government expense report? Have you never heard the whole $500 hammer thing, or $700 toilet seat? Seriously, our government has absolutely no ability to manage money, I think the bailout's been proof positive of that. Assuming that they get it right the first time (they won't), you still have the problem that, like the flat tax our current system is based off of, politicians have no ability to leave shit that is working alone.

[Psychoblues]

Although I am claearly no defender or even a friend of Joe Steel, DS'72, don't you think you could strut your stuff better by addressing his claims rather than him personally?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!



Have you ever read a government expense report? Have you never heard the whole $500 hammer thing, or $700 toilet seat? Seriously, our government has absolutely no ability to manage money, I think the bailout's been proof positive of that. Assuming that they get it right the first time (they won't), you still have the problem that, like the flat tax our current system is based off of, politicians have no ability to leave shit that is working alone.

Did I ever tell you about that $725,000 job I was on where I never did any work, didn't know anyone else that ever did any work and the contractor was paid in full anyway?!?!!??!??!?!?! It was a private gig paid for with private funding.

False argument begets false conclusions, cowgirl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did the gwb Prescription Drug Benefit package suit you in any way?!?!?!?!??!?!?!

Don't be a shithead like many others here, DS'72. I think you are much smarter than that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could I offer you a refreshment?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues