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View Full Version : Catholic cardinal leads protest against capital punishment



gabosaurus
11-24-2008, 08:20 PM
Busloads of Catholic faithful converged today on Huntsville, Texas — site of the state's execution chamber — at what was termed a "Pilgrimage for Life."

Cardinal Daniel DiNardo of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston led the procession, which consisted of a crowd of about 500.

The protest began with a Mass at St. Thomas Catholic Church, where DiNardo reiterated the church's opposition to abortion and capital punishment.

Protesters then were bused to Huntsville's Planned Parenthood clinic. A one-mile march to the Walls Unit, where more than 400 capital killers have been executed since 1982, was scheduled for later today.

The pilgrimage was part of an affirmation of Catholic teachings that included prayer sessions at churches throughout the state.

"We're not here to demand. We're here to pray," DiNardo said during the morning Mass. "There will be no slogans. We'll fall on our knees for intercession."

DiNardo said the "Gospel of life applies to everyone, no matter how little or seemingly insignificant."

"We need to make the truth known in a persuasive way — one by one, not always in massive doses of rhetoric," he said.

George Scheuchenzuber of Magnolia, said he attended the protest to affirm his opposition to capital punishment — a position he adopted just two months ago.

"Murder is murder," said Scheuchenzuber, 67. "Abortion is murder. And if a grown person kills someone, that's murder, but the state should not murder."

He added that he opposes capital punishment because, among other reasons, it can deprive the killer of the opportunity to repent and find God.

At 11:30 a.m., a procession of protesters three blocks long, marched through a light drizzle, passed the Sam Houston State University campus. They murmured prayerfully, "Hail Mary, full of grace," and sang Ave Maria. They carried sleeping babies on their shoulders and images of the Virgin and child.

At the head of the procession was a Huntsville police car, moving slowly, lights flashing.

Yurt
11-24-2008, 09:20 PM
interesting, given that god allowed the death penatly and even proscribed the death penalty for certain crimes. as to whether someone makes peace with god, well as we see from the story of the thief on the cross, one can enter paradise while hanging on a cross with only a short time to live.

retiredman
11-24-2008, 09:45 PM
I don't think that Jesus ever condoned capital punishment

Mr. P
11-24-2008, 09:54 PM
I don't think that Jesus ever condoned capital punishment

Hummm gotta wonder bout that Sodom and Gomorrah thing that Dad did then. What was that, murder or capital punishment? Donno..but they damn sure is dead.

retiredman
11-24-2008, 09:56 PM
Hummm gotta wonder bout that Sodom and Gomorrah thing that Dad did then. What was that, murder or capital punishment? Donno..but they damn sure is dead.

clearly, OT stuff is different that NT stuff.

Mr. P
11-24-2008, 09:58 PM
clearly, OT stuff is different that NT stuff.

Oh..God changed somewhere tween the two then..ok..got it..Clearly..NOT.

Yurt
11-24-2008, 10:07 PM
Oh..God changed somewhere tween the two then..ok..got it..Clearly..NOT.

i and the father are one...

i don't recall jesus ever saying that capital punishment is wrong... in fact, the wages of sin is death.

also, someone once said that jesus sayz to pay your taxes...because you are to give unto ceasar...if ceasar says we have the death penalty, then according to that logic jesus sayz....

retiredman
11-24-2008, 10:08 PM
i and the father are one...

i don't recall jesus ever saying that capital punishment is wrong... in fact, the wages of sin is death.

let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

manu1959
11-24-2008, 10:10 PM
let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

just hand the rock to the girl next to you then.....

retiredman
11-24-2008, 10:10 PM
just hand the rock to the girl next to you then.....

what is that supposed to imply?

Yurt
11-24-2008, 10:14 PM
so then we are not to punish anyone because none of us are without sin? i guess adultery or other sins are no longer punishable then...yet the wages of sin are death?

further, the verse should be taken in context, they were trying to trick him, i would not see that jesus laid down a new law that day...are you saying that? are you saying he abolished the old law?

retiredman
11-24-2008, 10:28 PM
so then we are not to punish anyone because none of us are without sin? i guess adultery or other sins are no longer punishable then...yet the wages of sin are death?

further, the verse should be taken in context, they were trying to trick him, i would not see that jesus laid down a new law that day...are you saying that? are you saying he abolished the old law?

which commandment is the greatest?

That you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all you soul and with all you mind, and the second is like it...that you shall love your neighbor as yourself...on this hangs all the law and the prophets.

manu1959
11-24-2008, 10:29 PM
which commandment is the greatest?

That you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all you soul and with all you mind, and the second is like it...that you shall love your neighbor as yourself...on this hangs all the law and the prophets.

number 10

Yurt
11-24-2008, 10:34 PM
which commandment is the greatest?

That you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all you soul and with all you mind, and the second is like it...that you shall love your neighbor as yourself...on this hangs all the law and the prophets.

what does that have to do with whether jesus abolished the death penalty? fact is, jesus never said we are to do away with the death penalty.

even paul did not speak out against the death penalty

Acts 25

11For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.

retiredman
11-24-2008, 10:38 PM
what does that have to do with whether jesus abolished the death penalty? fact is, jesus never said we are to do away with the death penalty.

even paul did not speak out against the death penalty

Acts 25

all men are sinners... none should cast the first stone. instead, we should love the lord our God with all our hearts, souls, and minds and love our neighbor as ourselves.

there is no room for the death penalty in that, IMHO...

but hey... you are a Christian scholar - except for the fact you know diddly about the Christian faith - so you can interpret the Gospel any way you choose, yurt. Just remember what Jesus said in Matthew 25.

manu1959
11-24-2008, 10:40 PM
He added that he opposes capital punishment because, among other reasons, it can deprive the killer of the opportunity to repent and find God.

i disagree......moments before they are executed they will find god......and then will get to meet god shortly there after.....

manu1959
11-24-2008, 10:41 PM
all men are sinners... none should cast the first stone. instead, we should love the lord our God with all our hearts, souls, and minds and love our neighbor as ourselves.

there is no room for the death penalty in that, IMHO...

but hey... you are a Christian scholar - except for the fact you know diddly about the Christian faith - so you can interpret the Gospel any way you choose, yurt. Just remember what Jesus said in Matthew 25.

this coming from the resident "christian" hypocrit.....ya lets take advice from you.....

Yurt
11-24-2008, 10:51 PM
paul did not speak out against the death penalty, he said he would accept the death penalty:


11For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.

when jesus spoke to the men <--- accusing the woman...where was the man who must also have committed adultery? it is possible that jesus was calling them out on their hypocrisy. further, there is no evidence that jesus abolished the death penalty.

can you cite direct evidence that he abolished the law regarding the death penalty? how can you tell people they MUST pay taxes because jesus says give unto ceasar yet tell them not to obey other laws?

retiredman
11-24-2008, 10:52 PM
paul did not speak out against the death penalty, he said he would accept the death penalty:



when jesus spoke to the men <--- accusing the woman...where was the man who must also have committed adultery? it is possible that jesus was calling them out on their hypocrisy. further, there is no evidence that jesus abolished the death penalty.

can you cite direct evidence that he abolished the law regarding the death penalty? how can you tell people they MUST pay taxes because jesus says give unto ceasar yet tell them not to obey other laws?

paying taxes is inherently different than taking the life of one's neighbor.

Yurt
11-24-2008, 10:55 PM
paying taxes is inherently different than taking the life of one's neighbor.

why do you keep ignoring paul?

you are admitting that god was wrong in the OT then...we should never have had the death penalty, according to you, is this right? did god somehow make a mistake? loving your neighbor does not at all mean that you cannot end your neighbors life for a heinous sin. where does jesus say that sin is NOT worthy of death? where does jesus say that the wages of sin are not death?

retiredman
11-24-2008, 10:55 PM
you would be wise to follow your own counsel

I intend to.

Yurt
11-24-2008, 10:59 PM
did god or his son abrogate this:

genesis 9

5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

retiredman
11-24-2008, 11:00 PM
why do you keep ignoring paul?

you are admitting that god was wrong in the OT then...we should never have had the death penalty, according to you, is this right? did god somehow make a mistake? loving your neighbor does not at all mean that you cannot end your neighbors life for a heinous sin. where does jesus say that sin is NOT worthy of death? where does jesus say that the wages of sin are not death?

I have never admitted that God has EVER been "wrong". I believe that Jesus does not condone the death penalty in anything he ever preached. If you care to interpret the words of Jesus differently, join the club... theologians and laymen have been struggling to interpret the words of Christ for two millennia.

Yurt
11-24-2008, 11:03 PM
I have never admitted that God has EVER been "wrong". I believe that Jesus does not condone the death penalty in anything he ever preached. If you care to interpret the words of Jesus differently, join the club... theologians and laymen have been struggling to interpret the words of Christ for two millennia.

you again ignore paul. why is this?

you cannot show me one single verse where jesus abrograted the death penalty? and yet you, the righteous holier than thou preacher, counsels me about interpreting verses....oh, thats rich

retiredman
11-24-2008, 11:03 PM
did god or his son abrogate this:

genesis 9

5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Jesus said that of the 600+ commandments in the Torah, the ONE that was most important was to Love God, and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself...AND ON THIS HANGS ALL THE LAWS AND THE PROPHETS.

Yurt
11-24-2008, 11:17 PM
Jesus said that of the 600+ commandments in the Torah, the ONE that was most important was to Love God, and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself...AND ON THIS HANGS ALL THE LAWS AND THE PROPHETS.

is this all you are going to keep saying? this does not at all address my questions, it merely repeats the phrase. why i am not surprised you won't answer questions...that phrase does not abrogate the death penalty and does not in fact abrogate any commandment.

you can't provide me with a single verse from jesus abrogating the death penalty, you can't address paul's words and you ignore god's words and you have the nuts to tell me i don't know diddly about christianity....

Yurt
11-24-2008, 11:21 PM
Matt 15

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

retiredman
11-24-2008, 11:23 PM
is this all you are going to keep saying? this does not at all address my questions, it merely repeats the phrase. why i am not surprised you won't answer questions...that phrase does not abrogate the death penalty and does not in fact abrogate any commandment.

you can't provide me with a single verse from jesus abrogating the death penalty, you can't address paul's words and you ignore god's words and you have the nuts to tell me i don't know diddly about christianity....

I think that the phrase does indeed abrogate the death penalty. As I said, scholars and theologians have been disagreeing about the meanings of the words of Christ for two thousand years.

As for Paul...Paul condoned slavery as well, so I don't put anywhere near as much stock in the words of Paul as I do the words written in red... but hey, that's just me.

Abbey Marie
11-24-2008, 11:24 PM
is this all you are going to keep saying? this does not at all address my questions, it merely repeats the phrase. why i am not surprised you won't answer questions...that phrase does not abrogate the death penalty and does not in fact abrogate any commandment.

you can't provide me with a single verse from jesus abrogating the death penalty, you can't address paul's words and you ignore god's words and you have the nuts to tell me i don't know diddly about christianity....

Jesus submitted himself willingly to the death penalty. Regardless of the reason, he did it.

manu1959
11-24-2008, 11:25 PM
Jesus submitted himself willingly to the death penalty. Regardless of the reason, he did it.

that he did......suicide by roman...........:poke:.....sorry i couldn't resist.....

retiredman
11-24-2008, 11:26 PM
Jesus submitted himself willingly to the death penalty. Regardless of the reason, he did it.

he did...but that does not mean that he endorsed it.

Yurt
11-24-2008, 11:28 PM
he did...but that does not mean that he endorsed it.

he did something he did not believe in?

retiredman
11-24-2008, 11:30 PM
he did something he did not believe in?


he didn't execute anyone. He submitted to the authorities to fulfill the scriptures.

Abbey Marie
11-24-2008, 11:30 PM
he did something he did not believe in?

Yeah, you know that wacky Jesus. Always saying "Do as I say, not as I do".

Yurt
11-24-2008, 11:30 PM
I think that the phrase does indeed abrogate the death penalty. As I said, scholars and theologians have been disagreeing about the meanings of the words of Christ for two thousand years.

As for Paul...Paul condoned slavery as well, so I don't put anywhere near as much stock in the words of Paul as I do the words written in red... but hey, that's just me.

then you have no right telling me i know diddly about christianity, you can't even provide me with a single verse and you demean paul, i guess you think his words should just be taken out of the bible...they aren't in "red" afterall...

heck, why don't we do away with the bulk of the OT, there is not much "red" there either.

either you accept the entire bible or you don't.

Yurt
11-24-2008, 11:34 PM
Yeah, you know that wacky Jesus. Always saying "Do as I say, not as I do".

since i know diddly about christianity...:laugh2:

Yurt
11-24-2008, 11:37 PM
all men are sinners... none should cast the first stone. instead, we should love the lord our God with all our hearts, souls, and minds and love our neighbor as ourselves.

there is no room for the death penalty in that, IMHO...

but hey... you are a Christian scholar - except for the fact you know diddly about the Christian faith - so you can interpret the Gospel any way you choose, yurt. Just remember what Jesus said in Matthew 25.


I have never admitted that God has EVER been "wrong". I believe that Jesus does not condone the death penalty in anything he ever preached. If you care to interpret the words of Jesus differently, join the club... theologians and laymen have been struggling to interpret the words of Christ for two millennia.


I think that the phrase does indeed abrogate the death penalty. As I said, scholars and theologians have been disagreeing about the meanings of the words of Christ for two thousand years.
As for Paul...Paul condoned slavery as well, so I don't put anywhere near as much stock in the words of Paul as I do the words written in red... but hey, that's just me.

:lol:

i know diddly, yet scholars and theologians have been disagreeing for two thousand years and this is all mfm can come up with

rich i tell you, rich

Yurt
11-25-2008, 12:12 AM
Matt 15

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

^ sure looks like jesus is not abrogating the death penalty ^

an interesting take:


Then Why Is the Death Penalty
Not a Deterrent in America?

God promises that the death penalty is a reliable deterrent:

"So you shall put away the evil from Israel. And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously." Deut. 17:12-13
Yet, the death penalty as executed through American courts is not much of a deterrent. Wise King Solomon 2,900 years ago explained why this is so:

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Eccl. 8:11
When a murderer is executed, three appeals and 12 years after his crime, society has largely forgotten about him. His death has almost no deterrent effect on crime. Further, a life sentence cannot be executed speedily. The swift death penalty deters crime and aids evangelism. Thus Christians, in obedience to God, should support the death penalty.
http://www.theologyonline.com/DEATH.HTML

Kathianne
11-25-2008, 02:29 AM
Derails, flames, etc moved to cage.

There are times when one can make mountains out of nothing. The ability to do so in order to get a running start on flaming is not a reason to then complain that such happens. How simple it would be to ignore. :rolleyes:

bullypulpit
11-25-2008, 05:43 AM
i and the father are one...

i don't recall jesus ever saying that capital punishment is wrong... in fact, the wages of sin is death.

also, someone once said that jesus sayz to pay your taxes...because you are to give unto ceasar...if ceasar says we have the death penalty, then according to that logic jesus sayz....

<blockquote>Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. - Romans 12:19</blockquote>

And that is all the death penalty is...state sanctioned revenge.

Oh and I know the wages of sin is death, but after taxes, it's just kind of a tired feeling.

PostmodernProphet
11-25-2008, 06:29 AM
as to whether someone makes peace with god, well as we see from the story of the thief on the cross, one can enter paradise while hanging on a cross with only a short time to live.
on the other hand, there's the story of the woman on death row in Texas who converted after 27 years.....I've been opposed to the death penalty since thinking that one through......

Yurt
11-25-2008, 11:24 AM
on the other hand, there's the story of the woman on death row in Texas who converted after 27 years.....I've been opposed to the death penalty since thinking that one through......

that is interesting. maybe she would have converted earlier had she known her time was limited, ie, she would be put to sleep/death in one month.

avatar4321
11-25-2008, 11:29 AM
<blockquote>Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. - Romans 12:19</blockquote>

And that is all the death penalty is...state sanctioned revenge.

Oh and I know the wages of sin is death, but after taxes, it's just kind of a tired feeling.

State sanctioned revenge? are you serious?

Revenge requires injury. The state isnt the injured party. The victim is. The state simply administers the law.