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Psychoblues
12-17-2008, 01:42 AM
We just don't know the truth when information is gagged by idiots that have personal interests to protect.

Stephen C. Webster
Published: Tuesday December 16, 2008


ACLU victorious as federal court declares Patriot Act provision a violation of the First Amendment

A federal appeals court ruling late Monday is the cause célèbre of the American Civil Liberties Union, as another provision of the Bush administration's Patriot Act falls to the judicial system.

Until the ruling, recipients of so-called "national security letters" were legally forbidden from speaking out. The letters, usually a demand for documents, or a notice that private records had been searched by government authorities, were criticized as a cover-all for FBI abuses.

"The appeals court invalidated parts of the statute that wrongly placed the burden on NSL recipients to initiate judicial review of gag orders, holding that the government has the burden to go to court and justify silencing NSL recipients," said the ACLU in a release. "The appeals court also invalidated parts of the statute that narrowly limited judicial review of the gag orders – provisions that required the courts to treat the government's claims about the need for secrecy as conclusive and required the courts to defer entirely to the executive branch."

Because of the ruling, the government will now be forced to justify individual gag orders before a court, instead of casually wielding the power of a blanket gag as the Bush administration has done since the blindingly fast passage of the Patriot Act in Oct. 2001.

In Sept. 2007, a federal judge ruled unconstitutional provisions within the Patriot Act which allowed the government to obtain search warrants without probable cause.

The ACLU's complete press release follows.

####

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 15, 2008

NEW YORK – A federal appeals court today upheld, in part, a decision striking down provisions of the Patriot Act that prevent national security letter (NSL) recipients from speaking out about the secret records demands. The decision comes in an American Civil Liberties Union and New York Civil Liberties Union lawsuit challenging the FBI's authority to use NSLs to demand sensitive and private customer records from Internet Service Providers and then forbid them from discussing the requests. Siding with the ACLU, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit found that the statute's gag provisions violate the First Amendment.

"We are gratified that the appeals court found that the FBI cannot silence people with complete disregard for the First Amendment simply by saying the words 'national security,'" said Melissa Goodman, staff attorney with the ACLU National Security Project. "This is a major victory for the rule of law. The court recognized the need for judicial oversight of the government's dangerous gag power and rejected the Bush administration's position that the courts should just rubber-stamp these gag orders. By upholding the critical check of judicial review, the FBI can no longer use this incredible power to hide abuse of its intrusive Patriot Act surveillance powers and silence critics."

The appeals court invalidated parts of the statute that wrongly placed the burden on NSL recipients to initiate judicial review of gag orders, holding that the government has the burden to go to court and justify silencing NSL recipients. The appeals court also invalidated parts of the statute that narrowly limited judicial review of the gag orders – provisions that required the courts to treat the government's claims about the need for secrecy as conclusive and required the courts to defer entirely to the executive branch.

"The appellate panel correctly observed that the imposition of such a conclusive presumption ignored well-settled First Amendment standards and deprived the judiciary of its important function as a protector of fundamental rights," said Arthur Eisenberg, Legal Director for the New York Civil Liberties Union.

In this regard, the opinion stated: "The fiat of a governmental official, though senior in rank and doubtless honorable in the execution of official duties, cannot displace the judicial obligation to enforce constitutional requirements."

The court, therefore, also ruled that the government must now justify the gag on the John Doe NSL recipient in the case, a gag that has been in place for more than four years.

The ACLU and New York Civil Liberties Union filed this lawsuit in April 2004 on behalf of an Internet Service Provider (ISP) that received an NSL. Because the FBI imposed a gag order on the ISP, the lawsuit was filed under seal, and even today the ACLU is prohibited from disclosing its client's identity. The FBI continues to maintain the gag order even though the underlying investigation is more than four years old (and may well have ended), and even though the FBI abandoned its demand for records from the ISP over a year and a half ago.

In September 2004, Judge Victor Marrero of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York struck down the NSL statute, ruling that the FBI could not constitutionally demand sensitive records without judicial review and that permanent gag orders violated the First Amendment guarantee of free speech. The government appealed the ruling, but Congress amended the NSL provision before the court issued a decision.

The ACLU brought a new challenge to the amended provision, and in September 2007, Judge Marrero again found the statute unconstitutional.

Bills aimed at bringing the NSL authority back in line with the Constitution were introduced last year in both the House and Senate after reports had confirmed and detailed the widespread abuse of the authority by federal law enforcement. Since the Patriot Act was passed in 2001, relaxing restrictions on the FBI's use of the power, the number of NSLs issued has seen an astronomical increase, to nearly 200,000 between 2003 and 2006. A March 2008 Office of Inspector General (OIG) report revealed that, among other abuses, the FBI misused NSLs to sidestep the authority of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC). In one instance, the FBI issued NSLs to obtain information after the FISC twice refused its requests on First Amendment grounds. The OIG also found that the FBI continues to impose gag orders on about 97 percent of NSL recipients and that, in some cases, the FBI failed to sufficiently justify why the gag orders were imposed in the first place.

In addition to this case, the ACLU has challenged this Patriot Act statute multiple times. One case was brought on behalf of a group of Connecticut librarians and another case, called Internet Archive v. Mukasey, involved an NSL served on a digital library in California. In the latter case, the FBI withdrew the NSL and the gag as part of the settlement of a legal challenge brought by the ACLU and the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

Attorneys in Doe v. Mukasey are Jameel Jaffer, Goodman and L. Danielle Tully of the ACLU National Security Project and Eisenberg of the NYCLU.

More: http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Court_sides_with_ACLU_strikes_down_1216.html

Let's see what our legal beagles can make of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

DragonStryk72
12-17-2008, 02:32 AM
wow, the ACLU actually protected civil liberties, crap, we haven't had that pretty much since segregation ended.

The Patriot Act was a terrible move, made during the time when people were still wanting to believe in the Bush presidency. He was given the pull reins of power to wield, and he let us all down on that.

Psychoblues
12-17-2008, 02:51 AM
The ACLU does better than you intimate, ds'72.


wow, the ACLU actually protected civil liberties, crap, we haven't had that pretty much since segregation ended.

The Patriot Act was a terrible move, made during the time when people were still wanting to believe in the Bush presidency. He was given the pull reins of power to wield, and he let us all down on that.

Their history indicates a strong aversion to undermining the values, mores, intentions and the Constitution of the United States of America and much to the disfavor of those that would propence to do so or promote otherwise whether inadvertently or not.

The dis-allowance of freedoms by those that most loudly profess them is rather astounding, don't you think?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Classact
12-17-2008, 09:38 AM
The ACLU does better than you intimate, ds'72.



Their history indicates a strong aversion to undermining the values, mores, intentions and the Constitution of the United States of America and much to the disfavor of those that would propence to do so or promote otherwise whether inadvertently or not.

The dis-allowance of freedoms by those that most loudly profess them is rather astounding, don't you think?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

PsychobluesDo you think it will be President Bush or President Obama to appeal this rediculous rulling?

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2008, 10:46 AM
so much for the effectiveness of the Act....next, lawyers will be advising clients how to draft letters to keep from being sued....

"Dear Suspected Terrorist
This letter is to advise you that we have been requested to provide to Homeland Security a list of telephone numbers that you have called within the last ninty days.
Sincerely
The Phone Company"

Immanuel
12-17-2008, 10:55 AM
so much for the effectiveness of the Act....next, lawyers will be advising clients how to draft letters to keep from being sued....

"Dear Suspected Terrorist
This letter is to advise you that we have been requested to provide to Homeland Security a list of telephone numbers that you have called within the last ninty days.
Sincerely
The Phone Company"

Good, I'm glad.

As an American Citizen, if some Homeland Security Agent got a wild hair up his ass and decided that I was a terrorist and he was going to investigate every aspect of my life, without probable cause, I sure as hell would want to know about it.

Immie

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2008, 04:00 PM
Good, I'm glad.

As an American Citizen, if some Homeland Security Agent got a wild hair up his ass and decided that I was a terrorist and he was going to investigate every aspect of my life, without probable cause, I sure as hell would want to know about it.

Immie

and, since you hadn't been calling up terrorist operatives and telling them which building to bomb when, there would be very little impact upon our health and safety because you knew.....but in deciding whether there is a public interest in the ability to locate all those secret operatives of the asshole who DOES plan to blow up buildings I am willing to trade off the privacy of HS knowing where you and I order our pizza.....

Immanuel
12-17-2008, 07:22 PM
and, since you hadn't been calling up terrorist operatives and telling them which building to bomb when, there would be very little impact upon our health and safety because you knew.....but in deciding whether there is a public interest in the ability to locate all those secret operatives of the asshole who DOES plan to blow up buildings I am willing to trade off the privacy of HS knowing where you and I order our pizza.....

And let's just say that the HS Agent with the wild hair up his ass has it in for me. The time and money I spend defending myself because I slept with his girlfriend... or he thinks it was me when in fact she's just trying to make him jealous and to forget about his little dic... er peepee isn't worth it. Nor is the time in prison because I couldn't convince the little pecker that it wasn't me.

Sorry, but I have a problem with giving the government too much power.

Immie

PostmodernProphet
12-17-2008, 09:21 PM
hmmmm.....balances the odds of the HS agent successfully misusing the system to get even with Immanuel versus the odds of a terrorist trying to do damage to civilians in the US......decides Immanuel is negligible......I have a bigger problem with not giving the government enough power.....

Immanuel
12-17-2008, 09:34 PM
hmmmm.....balances the odds of the HS agent successfully misusing the system to get even with Immanuel versus the odds of a terrorist trying to do damage to civilians in the US......decides Immanuel is negligible......I have a bigger problem with not giving the government enough power.....

Ah, I see, as long as it is my hide you don't give a damn, but what if it were yours? ;)

I've long been anti-Patriot Act, PMP. It was one of the things that started my own disfavor to our current President.

Personally, I am concerned anytime the government even hints at diminishing our civil rights. For the longest time, (maybe you've read this from me, if so, I apologize for repeating it) I said, I wasn't so concerned with the Bush Admin as I was with a future Democratic Administration... namely Hillary's. We've opened the door for a future President to decide that you, by virtue of your anti-abortion stance are a potential terrorist and therefore, you, and I, bare watching or better yet, you should be a resident of the prison at Guantanamo Bay where you can do no harm. Maybe it won't be your stance on abortion. Maybe it will be the fact that you are a Christian or even nothing more than a conservative.

The right wing argument in defense of the Patriot Act has always been, "what rights have you lost"? Well, the right to feel safe in my own home is one of those rights. But of even more concern to me is what rights are threatened by the act.

And one more thing... the government has enough power. The problem is rather that they would rather be focusing on how to tax the citizens for every dime they can get rather than focusing on the issues that they should be focusing on.

Immie

5stringJeff
12-17-2008, 09:54 PM
Holy crap. I had no idea that was part of the Patriot Act! I'm very glad this was struck down. There's no way you shouldn't be able to speak out if the government acts against you.

PostmodernProphet
12-18-2008, 07:11 AM
Holy crap. I had no idea that was part of the Patriot Act! I'm very glad this was struck down. There's no way you shouldn't be able to speak out if the government acts against you.

Wow....either you or I have seriously misread the opening post.....the provision they are talking about says that if, for example, the government contacts a library and asks it to voluntarily provide a list of the web sites or email addresses you contacted from a public computer, the library is prohibited from spilling the beans that you are a suspected person.......the goal is to make sure surveillance is productive......

PostmodernProphet
12-18-2008, 07:15 AM
Ah, I see, as long as it is my hide you don't give a damn, but what if it were yours? ;)

I've long been anti-Patriot Act, PMP. It was one of the things that started my own disfavor to our current President.

Personally, I am concerned anytime the government even hints at diminishing our civil rights. For the longest time, (maybe you've read this from me, if so, I apologize for repeating it) I said, I wasn't so concerned with the Bush Admin as I was with a future Democratic Administration... namely Hillary's. We've opened the door for a future President to decide that you, by virtue of your anti-abortion stance are a potential terrorist and therefore, you, and I, bare watching or better yet, you should be a resident of the prison at Guantanamo Bay where you can do no harm. Maybe it won't be your stance on abortion. Maybe it will be the fact that you are a Christian or even nothing more than a conservative.

The right wing argument in defense of the Patriot Act has always been, "what rights have you lost"? Well, the right to feel safe in my own home is one of those rights. But of even more concern to me is what rights are threatened by the act.

And one more thing... the government has enough power. The problem is rather that they would rather be focusing on how to tax the citizens for every dime they can get rather than focusing on the issues that they should be focusing on.

Immie

sorry, but I'm not buying into your fear mongering.....first of all my hide has nothing to hide....but there are people with plenty to hide.....as I recall, we've caught a few of them since 9/11......post-Patriot Act, this country still provides far more protection of personal rights than any other country in the world.....just because you think actually catching people who want to kill you is an infringement on their rights is no reason to handicap law enforcement.......

Immanuel
12-18-2008, 08:12 AM
Wow....either you or I have seriously misread the opening post.....the provision they are talking about says that if, for example, the government contacts a library and asks it to voluntarily provide a list of the web sites or email addresses you contacted from a public computer, the library is prohibited from spilling the beans that you are a suspected person.......the goal is to make sure surveillance is productive......

You do realize that they can also contact your bank and demand your financial records as well and the bank can't (or couldn't) inform you of this. Don't you?


sorry, but I'm not buying into your fear mongering.....first of all my hide has nothing to hide....but there are people with plenty to hide.....as I recall, we've caught a few of them since 9/11......post-Patriot Act, this country still provides far more protection of personal rights than any other country in the world.....just because you think actually catching people who want to kill you is an infringement on their rights is no reason to handicap law enforcement.......

It has nothing to do with whether or not you have something to hide. It has everything to do with the abuse of power.

As for catching people who want to kill us, they already have the tools to do that and they do a damned good job of it as well. For whatever reason, the 9/11 murderers got through the front line. In law enforcement that is going to happen at times. Having missed that one doesn't mean the system doesn't work or that we should sell our rights down the shitter and become the next dictatorship without the protections that our founding fathers felt necessary to install in our Constitution.

I'm damned glad this provision was struck down and I pray to God that over the next few years the entire act is found to be the fearmongering piece of shitty legislation it started out to be. That is after all what it was all about. Casting fear in the hearts of Americans to force us to give up rights that we have always counted on... "for the good of the people"

Immie

PostmodernProphet
12-18-2008, 03:12 PM
You do realize that they can also contact your bank and demand your financial records as well and the bank can't (or couldn't) inform you of this. Don't you?

first of all, no....they cannot DEMAND anything.....they can ask for it and if the bank gives it to them the bank doesn't have to tell me about it......and I could care less......I have no expectation at all that anyone is going to ask my bank for my records.....or yours.....though I expect if I was a person who regularly transferred cash to the Middle East it might happen.....and I hope it does.....




It has nothing to do with whether or not you have something to hide.

sure it does......those of us with nothing to hide have nothing to lose if someone looks at their records....



As for catching people who want to kill us, they already have the tools to do that and they do a damned good job of it as well.

they do....and those tools include the Patriot Act....



That is after all what it was all about. Casting fear in the hearts of Americans to force us to give up rights that we have always counted on... "for the good of the people"

I will agree that all your arguments against the Patriot Act are fearmongering....especially since there hasn't been a single case of abuse stemming from its use since it passed....

Immanuel
12-18-2008, 03:51 PM
I will agree that all your arguments against the Patriot Act are fearmongering....especially since there hasn't been a single case of abuse stemming from its use since it passed....

Wrong!

The Patriot Act was fearmongering of the worst kind that came directly from Washington.

Paraphrased from our President: We have to do this for your protection because if we don't the boogeyman is going to get you.

That PMP, is the worst kind of fearmongering.

Immie

PostmodernProphet
12-18-2008, 05:56 PM
Wrong!

The Patriot Act was fearmongering of the worst kind that came directly from Washington.

Paraphrased from our President: We have to do this for your protection because if we don't the boogeyman is going to get you.

That PMP, is the worst kind of fearmongering.

Immie

you tell us we have more to fear from a good man acting contrary to his purpose using a good law that prohibits wrongful use than we do from a bad man acting in accordance with an evil purpose using tools intended to harm.....to me there can be no worse kind of fearmongering than that.....

5stringJeff
12-18-2008, 06:38 PM
you tell us we have more to fear from a good man acting contrary to his purpose using a good law that prohibits wrongful use than we do from a bad man acting in accordance with an evil purpose using tools intended to harm.....to me there can be no worse kind of fearmongering than that.....

No, we're telling you that the "good man" using a "good law" can easily become a "bad man" using that same good law, for his own purposes. The government should not have the power to gag other entities about a search for information they've done on you.

5stringJeff
12-18-2008, 06:40 PM
Wow....either you or I have seriously misread the opening post.....the provision they are talking about says that if, for example, the government contacts a library and asks it to voluntarily provide a list of the web sites or email addresses you contacted from a public computer, the library is prohibited from spilling the beans that you are a suspected person.......the goal is to make sure surveillance is productive......

The library - or a bank, for that matter - shouldn't be prohibited from telling anyone anything regarding a government search.

Yurt
12-18-2008, 08:20 PM
Wrong!

The Patriot Act was fearmongering of the worst kind that came directly from Washington.

Paraphrased from our President: We have to do this for your protection because if we don't the boogeyman is going to get you.

That PMP, is the worst kind of fearmongering.

Immie

what if that were true, e.g., this thing has to be done or the boogeyman will get you?

Psychoblues
12-18-2008, 10:14 PM
Obviously the "boogyman" exists in your (double meaning there, dumbo) mind, yuk.

Why am I not surprised?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2008, 05:20 AM
The library - or a bank, for that matter - shouldn't be prohibited from telling anyone anything regarding a government search.

lol.....you let them SELL information about you to telemarketers without letting you know......

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2008, 05:21 AM
No, we're telling you that the "good man" using a "good law" can easily become a "bad man" using that same good law, for his own purposes. The government should not have the power to gag other entities about a search for information they've done on you.

exactly......which is fearmongering......my point.....

Psychoblues
12-19-2008, 05:24 AM
Hilarious, pmp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep your thinking cap on. You might need it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is the whine holding up?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??! Need some cheese?!?!?!?!?!??!???!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2008, 05:36 AM
At times like this, Psych.....I get this feeling that if we met in public, I would roll you over and check your pockets for money.....then I would call the cops and tell them the town drunk was sprawled in the gutter again.....

Psychoblues
12-19-2008, 05:40 AM
At times like this, pmp, I would rattle your ugly head and call the cops to arrest you for public ignorance.



At times like this, Psych.....I get this feeling that if we met in public, I would roll you over and check your pockets for money.....then I would call the cops and tell them the town drunk was sprawled in the gutter again.....

Roll me over?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??! In your freakin' dreams, cowgirl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That cheese stinky enough for you?!?!?!?!??! More whine?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Immanuel
12-19-2008, 08:34 AM
what if that were true, e.g., this thing has to be done or the boogeyman will get you?

What if it were true? Big if!

Does that mean that we should hand over the protections that the founding fathers placed in the Constitution? They feared what a corrupt government could do. Why shouldn't we? Those protections were placed there for a reason. GWB in the blink of an eye scared the hell out of this nation and erased them with the blessings of the sheep.

Immie

PostmodernProphet
12-19-2008, 11:27 AM
Roll me over?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??! In your freakin' dreams, cowgirl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you're too optimistic.....most drunks land on their face when they pass out.....(and that would be cowboy, to you)

Yurt
12-19-2008, 02:35 PM
What if it were true? Big if!

Does that mean that we should hand over the protections that the founding fathers placed in the Constitution? They feared what a corrupt government could do. Why shouldn't we? Those protections were placed there for a reason. GWB in the blink of an eye scared the hell out of this nation and erased them with the blessings of the sheep.

Immie

big if, little if, so what, i said if....

if such action stopped the boogeyman, is that necessarily a bad thing? what exactly bothers you, specifics....

Immanuel
12-19-2008, 02:57 PM
big if, little if, so what, i said if....

if such action stopped the boogeyman, is that necessarily a bad thing? what exactly bothers you, specifics....

Thanks for asking at least it carries on the discussion rather than PMP's and my wasted back and forth discussion. Note: not blaming PMP alone for that.

What bothers me?

Well, I don't trust those in power. I believe that the Bill of Rights was ratified for our protections in all matters dealing with the government. I believe that those rights were established to hold in check a government that might eventually become too big to handle. I believe that even if the government has not reached that point the Patriot Act has only pushed us further in that direction. I also believe that eventually the government will overstep its bounds even here in America. That being the case, we will wish that we had those protections in place. We will wish that we had thought twice before we allowed George Bush to scare us into accepting his "protections" for our own good.

We've allowed the precedent to be set to remove rights at the whim of a President. Is Habeus Corpus next? Maybe the right to bear arms? Will we one day wake up to find that a President has decided to wage war against the citizens of the U.S. and there won't be a damned thing we can do about it? I think we will. I just don't know when that will be.

Immie

Psychoblues
12-21-2008, 02:28 AM
Yuk promotes the boogyman, immie.



Thanks for asking at least it carries on the discussion rather than PMP's and my wasted back and forth discussion. Note: not blaming PMP alone for that.

What bothers me?

Well, I don't trust those in power. I believe that the Bill of Rights was ratified for our protections in all matters dealing with the government. I believe that those rights were established to hold in check a government that might eventually become too big to handle. I believe that even if the government has not reached that point the Patriot Act has only pushed us further in that direction. I also believe that eventually the government will overstep its bounds even here in America. That being the case, we will wish that we had those protections in place. We will wish that we had thought twice before we allowed George Bush to scare us into accepting his "protections" for our own good.

We've allowed the precedent to be set to remove rights at the whim of a President. Is Habeus Corpus next? Maybe the right to bear arms? Will we one day wake up to find that a President has decided to wage war against the citizens of the U.S. and there won't be a damned thing we can do about it? I think we will. I just don't know when that will be.

Immie

It's a lawyerly thing to do, don't you know?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues

Psychoblues
12-21-2008, 02:50 AM
Do you have experience that you want to share, cowgirl?



you're too optimistic.....most drunks land on their face when they pass out.....(and that would be cowboy, to you)

Does your irony not count for anything?!?!?!???!?!?!?!?!??1

:beer::cheers2::beer:

Psychoblues