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bullypulpit
02-21-2009, 11:02 PM
In passing the loan to America's auto makers, GOP talking points were centered more on trying to break the UAW than on any truly constructive action. As the "Big Three" come to Washington once more, hat in hand, the GOP is sure to dredge up their fairy tales about how union workers make $73 an hour, or more, how the costs per unit for union labor ad a gazillion dollars to the cost of a vehicle...blah...blah...blah...blah...blah.

Let's dispel these myths, shall we?

<blockquote>• U.S. manufacturing workers are not overpaid. Of the 20 richest countries tracked by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the United States ranks 17th in hourly pay for production workers in manufacturing. This group of trading partners accounts for almost half of total U.S. trade flows.
• U.S. manufacturing workers are highly productive. Of the 16 nations with higher compensation for production workers in manufacturing, the United States ranks behind only Ireland (a nation with a manufacturing
workforce less than 2% as large as that of the United States) in terms of “value-added per employee” (a rough measure of productivity).
• Pay and productivity levels should translate into a competitive edge. The combination of relatively low compensation and high productivity means that U.S. manufacturing leads the world in terms of competitiveness of per unit
costs of manufacturing output.
• The overvalued U.S. dollar hurts U.S. competitiveness. This competitive advantage has, however, largely been offset in the past decade by the overvalued dollar. Exchange rates in the last 10 years have essentially given U.S. trading partners a 10-16% cost advantage compared to the previous decade.
• Health care costs hurt U.S. manufacturers. If average health care costs in the United States were the same as those of its comparable trading partner, U.S. manufacturing workers could earn what they do today and still reap a 4.6% cost advantage relative to our major trading partners.
• U.S. managers are overpaid. If the wages claimed by managerial and non-supervisory labor in the United States were the same as the median of comparable countries, U.S. manufacturing would have a 6.4% cost advantage over major trading partners. - <a href=http://epi.3cdn.net/170ac22fe87bb82346_idm6ivvgk.pdf>Squandering the blue-collar advantage</a></blockquote>

The dirty little secret the GOP is sitting on here is that a national health care plan and caps on executive compensation will do more to increase the profitability and competitiveness of US auto, and other, companies than all of the concessions granted by the the UAW and other unions.

PostmodernProphet
02-21-2009, 11:26 PM
<blockquote>• U.S. manufacturing workers are not overpaid. Of the 20 richest countries tracked by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the United States ranks 17th in hourly pay for production workers in manufacturing.

do you have any statistics on where UAW members rank?........

I see from the Bureau's charts that they show an average pay for production workers in the US at $17 per hour.....UAW workers earn $27 average pay.....does that ten dollar advantage boost them from 17th in the world to something higher do you expect?.....

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=69568

by the way, I have never heard anyone say they earn $70 an hour......they said they COST $70 an hour.....which includes benefits, payroll taxes, and overtime......then of course, you have the quota system, which means they continue to get paid to sit on their asses in the breakroom and play cards after they have produced their limit for the day.....

theHawk
02-22-2009, 01:22 AM
do you have any statistics on where UAW members rank?........

I see from the Bureau's charts that they show an average pay for production workers in the US at $17 per hour.....UAW workers earn $27 average pay.....does that ten dollar advantage boost them from 17th in the world to something higher do you expect?.....

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=69568

by the way, I have never heard anyone say they earn $70 an hour......they said they COST $70 an hour.....which includes benefits, payroll taxes, and overtime......then of course, you have the quota system, which means they continue to get paid to sit on their asses in the breakroom and play cards after they have produced their limit for the day.....


You can't expect a mental midget like Bully to take notice of such facts that would destroy his entire arguement.

As stubborn as facts can be, deranged liberals are much more so.

bullypulpit
02-22-2009, 01:38 PM
It would seem that it's y'all who are the mental midgets...

<blockquote>...union wages are, in fact, already in line with nonunion salaries at foreign-owned US plants. In 2007 the average UAW member made about $28 per hour, while the average American Honda or Toyota worker made $20 to $26 per hour; a new UAW hire earns as little as $14 per hour... - <a href=http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090105/editors>Dumping on Detroit</a></blockquote>

The $70+ per hour numbers fronted by the GOP represent not just the wages and benefits of line workers which come to about $55 an hour, but also with the benefits afforded to retirees figured in as well...which adds around $15 an hour. The $55 an hour average comports reasonably well with that of Toyota at $45 an hour. As for quotas...If you can cite specific, reliable resources on that, I would greatly appreciate it.

If employers were relieved of the burden of health care insurance, say through a national, single payer health care system, that burden would be dramatically reduced, with matching improvements in profitability and competitiveness. But hey, y'all keep drinking that GOP kool-aid, just remember what happened to everyone who drank the kool-aid in Jonestown.

PostmodernProphet
02-22-2009, 05:01 PM
The $70+ per hour numbers fronted by the GOP represent not just the wages and benefits of line workers which come to about $55 an hour, but also with the benefits afforded to retirees figured in as well...which adds around $15 an hour.

of course it is....that's the way it has always been presented......so what's your point.....or are you simply pointing out the obvious....that the GOP's claims are patently accurate.....



If employers were relieved of the burden of health care insurance, say through a national, single payer health care system

quite a windfall you're offering business there, bully....isn't that a bit uncharacteristic of you?......

PostmodernProphet
02-22-2009, 05:04 PM
As for quotas...If you can cite specific, reliable resources on that, I would greatly appreciate it.


I know it from personal experience and so do you.....but I know you'll never admit it......you recall the news reports late last year about the union members caught spending 3-4 hours a day in the local bars?........

crin63
02-22-2009, 05:31 PM
I mentioned it before in another thread but it bears repeating. First off I've been a union member for 27 years.

I worked at 2 GM facilities for quite a while. I personally witnessed UAW people sleeping throughout the night while on the clock. I personally witnessed sabotage (that they claimed was accidental) to shut down the plant. I had what engineering felt was an attempt on my life by UAW personnel for stopping their ability to shut down the plant. I personally witnessed people stand there waiting for cars to come by so they could put a couple screws in the dash with a cordless drill all the while complaining about their jobs. I personally witnessed UAW personnel drive the finished cars through the parking area with reckless abandon and damaging them occasionally.

So please don't expect me to have any sympathy for the UAW.

PostmodernProphet
02-22-2009, 05:53 PM
I know from a family member that the lines in the Lansing GMC plant used to shut down at 11:00 am (from a 7:00 am start) because the daily quota had been met.....that would have been back in the 80s....

crin63
02-22-2009, 07:42 PM
I know from a family member that the lines in the Lansing GMC plant used to shut down at 11:00 am (from a 7:00 am start) because the daily quota had been met.....that would have been back in the 80s....

My experience was in the 80's also.

darin
02-22-2009, 08:12 PM
Blah - I bash unions every chance I get. Worker unions are so horribly BAD nowadays. :(

bullypulpit
02-22-2009, 08:56 PM
of course it is....that's the way it has always been presented......so what's your point.....or are you simply pointing out the obvious....that the GOP's claims are patently accurate.....



quite a windfall you're offering business there, bully....isn't that a bit uncharacteristic of you?......

Nothing wrong with capitalism, so long as its practitioners are reigned in from the worst of their excesses.

But more to the point, the GOP's complaints against the UAW had little to do with their new found fiscal restraint. In the face of the need for loans to the auto industry it had everything to do with taking a shot at one of the few unions with any power left...the UAW...as evidenced by this action alert issued to Senate Republicans on 12/10/08...

<blockquote> From:

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM

To:

Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout

Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:

1.This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. <b>Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor</b>, instead of taking their first blow from it.

2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.

The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this.</blockquote>

Never mind that the average wage of a line worker at the Big Three is about $56,000 a year.

Silver
02-22-2009, 10:35 PM
2006
As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract negotiated with the "Big Five" (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi and Visteon), an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26 an hour ($60,000 a year) plus benefits that bring the company's total cost per worker to a staggering $65+ an hour.
But at least the grass cutters are working for their pay. The UAW contract also guarantees that 12,000 autoworkers get full wage for doing nothing. On the heels of Miller's straight-talk, the Detroit News reported that "12,000 American autoworkers, instead of bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank."

One blue-collar Delphi worker interviewed by the Detroit News makes $103,000 a year operating a forklift and fears the consequences if his pay is drastically reduced. But many Americans will ask how a forklift operator felt entitled to a six-figure income in the first place (according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average forklift operator wage in the U.S. is $26,000).

PostmodernProphet
02-22-2009, 11:20 PM
But more to the point, the GOP's complaints against the UAW had little to do with their new found fiscal restraint.

it was supposed to, and did, have a great deal to do with reality.....and the reality is that unless the errors that the auto dealers made in negotiating with the unions are corrected, it is inexcusable to use federal money to bail them out.....only bankruptcy can eliminate their union contract problems......

theHawk
02-23-2009, 06:47 PM
It would seem that it's y'all who are the mental midgets...



Your words, not mine:


the GOP is sure to dredge up their fairy tales about how union workers make $73 an hour, or more


The only fairy tales here are what few electrons are rattling around in your head as you come up with these rediculous arguements. :poke: