Baghdad merchants dispute McCain on security

[lily]

So, I wonder how much this little photo-op cost the American taxpayers. I would think that 100 soldiers and a helicopter could be put to better use.....


http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/03/news/baghdad.php


Baghdad merchants dispute McCain on security


BAGHDAD: A day after members of an American congressional delegation led by
Senator John McCain pointed to their brief visit to Baghdad's central market
as evidence that the new security plan for the city was working, the
merchants there were incredulous about the conclusions.

"What are they talking about?" Ali Jassim Faiyad, the owner of an electrical
appliances shop in the market, said Monday. "The security procedures were
abnormal!"

The delegation arrived at the market, which is called Shorja, on Sunday with
more than 100 soldiers in armored Humvees - the equivalent of an entire
company - and attack helicopters circled overhead, a senior U.S. military
official in Baghdad said.

The soldiers redirected traffic from the area and restricted access to the
Americans, witnesses said, and sharpshooters were posted on the rooftops.
The congressmen wore bulletproof vests throughout their hourlong visit.

"They paralyzed the market when they came," Faiyad said during an interview
in his shop on Monday. "This was only for the media."


He added, "This will not change anything."

At a news conference shortly after their outing, McCain, Republican of
Arizona, and his three congressional colleagues described Shorja as a safe,
bustling place full of hopeful and warmly welcoming Iraqis. "Like a normal
outdoor market in Indiana in the summertime," offered Representative Mike
Pence, Republican of Indiana, who was a member of the delegation.

But the market that the congressmen said they saw is fundamentally different
from the market Iraqis know.

Merchants and customers say that a campaign by insurgents to attack
Baghdad's markets has put many shop owners out of business and forced
radical changes in the way people shop. Shorja, the city's oldest and
largest market, set in a sprawling labyrinth of narrow streets and
alleyways, has been bombed at least half a dozen times since last summer.

At least 61 people were killed and many more wounded in a three-pronged
attack there on Feb. 12, involving two vehicle bombs and a roadside bomb.

American and Iraq security forces have tried to protect Shorja and other
markets against car bombs by restricting vehicular traffic in some shopping
areas and erecting blast walls around the markets' perimeters. But these
measures, while making the markets safer, have not made them safe.

In the latest large-scale attack on a Baghdad market, at least 60 people,
most of them women and children, were killed last Thursday when a man
wrapped in an explosives belt walked around such barriers into a crowded
street market in the Shaab neighborhood and detonated himself.

In recent weeks, snipers hidden in Shorja's bazaar have killed several
people, merchants and the police say, and gunfights have erupted between
militants and the Iraqi security forces in the area.

During the Americans' visit on Sunday, they were buttonholed by merchants
and customers who wanted to talk about how unsafe they felt and the urgent
need for more security in the markets and throughout the city, witnesses
said.

"They asked about our conditions, and we told them the situation was bad,"
said Aboud Sharif Kadhoury, 63, who peddles prayer rugs at a sidewalk stand.

He said he had sold a small prayer rug worth less than $1 to General David
Petraeus, commander of the U.S. forces in Iraq, who accompanied the
congressional delegation. (Petraeus paid $20 and told Kadhoury to keep the
change, the vendor said.)

Kadhoury said he had lost more than $2,000 worth of merchandise in the
triple bombing in February. "I was hit in the head and back with shrapnel,"
he recalled.

"Everybody complained to them," recalled Ali Youssef, 39, who sells
glassware from a sidewalk stand down the block from Kadhoury. "We told them
we were harmed."

He and other merchants used to keep their shops open until dusk, but with
the falloff in customers as a result of the attacks, and a nightly curfew,
most shop owners close their businesses in the early afternoon.

"This area here is very dangerous," continued Youssef, who lost his shop in
the February attack. "They cannot secure it."

But these conversations were not reflected in the congressmen's comments at
the news conference Sunday.

Instead, the politicians spoke of strolling through the marketplace,
haggling with merchants and drinking tea.

"The most deeply moving thing for me was to mix and mingle unfettered,"
Pence said.

McCain was asked about a comment he made on a radio program in late March in
which he said that he could walk freely through certain areas of Baghdad.

"I just came from one," McCain replied sharply. "Things are better, and
there are encouraging signs."

He added, "Never have I been able to go out into the city as I was today."

Told about McCain's assessment of the market, Abu Samer, a kitchenware and
clothing wholesaler, scoffed: "He is just using this visit for publicity. He
is just using it for himself. They'll just take a photo of him at our market
and they will just show it in the United States. He will win in America, and
we will have nothing."

A Senate spokeswoman for McCain said he had left Iraq on Monday and was
unavailable for comment because he was traveling.

Several merchants said Monday that the Americans' visit may have only made
the market a more inviting target for insurgents.

"Every time the government announces anything - that the electricity is good
or the water supply is good - the insurgents come to attack it immediately,"
said Abu Samer, 49, who would give only his nickname out of concern for his
safety.

But even though he was fearful of a revenge attack, he said, he could not
afford to stay away from the market. This was his livelihood.

"We can never anticipate when they will attack," he said, his voice heavy
with gloomy resignation. "This is not a new worry."

[LiberalNation]

Probably could.

[Gaffer]

Interesting article. I'll make a few points about it.

First off i see no columnists name on this article. I even went to the site and there is nothing. Yet there are quotes from various business owners and customers all with negative comments.

The delegation arrived at the market, which is called Shorja, on Sunday with
more than 100 soldiers in armored Humvees - the equivalent of an entire
company - and attack helicopters circled overhead, a senior U.S. military
official in Baghdad said.

100 soldiers is not the equivalent of an entire company. It's two platoons. Though allowing for attrition maybe its three. It seems the security measures were adiquate and nothing unusual. redirecting traffic and snipers throughout the area is standard practice. The shop owners probably made more in that one hour than they do all day.


Merchants and customers say that a campaign by insurgents to attack
Baghdad's markets has put many shop owners out of business and forced
radical changes in the way people shop. Shorja, the city's oldest and
largest market, set in a sprawling labyrinth of narrow streets and
alleyways, has been bombed at least half a dozen times since last summer.

a campaign by al queda to attack baghdad markets has been under way for a long time. Especially now as many of the tribes are turning on al queda and fighting them or turning them in to the iraqi and US troops. al queda is bombing markets to terrorize the population into supporting them again.

American and Iraq security forces have tried to protect Shorja and other
markets against car bombs by restricting vehicular traffic in some shopping
areas and erecting blast walls around the markets' perimeters. But these
measures, while making the markets safer, have not made them safe.

No they are not safe. They won't be until al queda is driven out completely. The surge is another part of making them safe. The surge also consists of iraqi military from other parts of the country. Not all the troops are there yet.

Several merchants said Monday that the Americans' visit may have only made
the market a more inviting target for insurgents.

"Every time the government announces anything - that the electricity is good
or the water supply is good - the insurgents come to attack it immediately,"
said Abu Samer, 49, who would give only his nickname out of concern for his
safety.

Yes if al queda can get some play out of attacking that market and scare all the people then they will probably do that. They will also attack any electric facilty or water supply they can as well because they want to keep the people unhappy. And reporters like this feed the negative image that al queda wants to present. No wonder he didn't put his name on it.

[lily]

Interesting article. I'll make a few points about it.

First off i see no columnists name on this article. I even went to the site and there is nothing. Yet there are quotes from various business owners and customers all with negative comments.
Not sure what site you went to. When I click on the link I see his name, the date and the article. No quotes from anybody.




100 soldiers is not the equivalent of an entire company. It's two platoons. Though allowing for attrition maybe its three. It seems the security measures were adiquate and nothing unusual. redirecting traffic and snipers throughout the area is standard practice. The shop owners probably made more in that one hour than they do all day.

So you are fully content with not only these soldiers wasting their time shuffling around McCain, wasting money not to mention the helicopter, so he could get a photo-op and use it to become president? Let me guess, you are upset about the pork in the supplimental spending, though.......even though that was from the previous senate.




a campaign by al queda to attack baghdad markets has been under way for a long time. Especially now as many of the tribes are turning on al queda and fighting them or turning them in to the iraqi and US troops. al queda is bombing markets to terrorize the population into supporting them again.
Let me see.......on the one hand, I have what an Iraqi person who is there is saying on on the other I have a poster on a forum........decisions decisions....who should I believe?




No they are not safe. They won't be until al queda is driven out completely. The surge is another part of making them safe. The surge also consists of iraqi military from other parts of the country. Not all the troops are there yet.

Are you still of the mind set that al-quada is still the main problem in Baghdad?





Yes if al queda can get some play out of attacking that market and scare all the people then they will probably do that. They will also attack any electric facilty or water supply they can as well because they want to keep the people unhappy. And reporters like this feed the negative image that al queda wants to present. No wonder he didn't put his name on it.

See here again I am in the same quandry.......do I believe someone that is there, or you?

[Gaffer]

Not sure what site you went to. When I click on the link I see his name, the date and the article. No quotes from anybody.

I went to the link you gave in your post. Maybe his name was buried in the ads.



So you are fully content with not only these soldiers wasting their time shuffling around McCain, wasting money not to mention the helicopter, so he could get a photo-op and use it to become president? Let me guess, you are upset about the pork in the supplimental spending, though.......even though that was from the previous senate.

Well since they were protecting a bunch of congress people and high ranking officers I don't feel it was a waste of money. The soldiers might have thought it a waste of time. But then they have units there that specialize in protecting VIP's. And the cost for that operation wasn't even a fraction of the pork attached to the dem slow bleed bill.


Let me see.......on the one hand, I have what an Iraqi person who is there is saying on on the other I have a poster on a forum........decisions decisions....who should I believe?

And your iraqi source is credible because....? Can we say Capt. Jamil Hussien? And other made up ap sources.



Are you still of the mind set that al-quada is still the main problem in Baghdad?

al queda IS the main source of the problems in iraq. The attacks on iraqi civilians are not being made by iraqi's. The tribes in the west, anbar province are going after the al queda in their midst and turning them in, at the same time they are joining the iraqi army and police forces. MY iraqi sources tell me your sources are wrong. Try this site for real info.

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/



See here again I am in the same quandry.......do I believe someone that is there, or you?

Don't take my word for it. Go to the site I gave you and read for yourself. The bloggers there live IN baghdad. were you aware of the change in parliment there a few weeks ago? The new attitude of the government? The kicking out of the shea majority?

[grunt]

If I would of had to put my Marines or myslef in a more of a risky situation than needed, I would have been pissed. McCain, whom I highly respect, knows better than this and was being a politician instead of a highly decorated Naval Aviator. Soldiers and Marines do not need to be used as "bodyguards". if there was a need for him to be there, fine, but I'm sick and tired of Politicians getting in the fucking way and not allowing the military to do what it's trained for. And that is to fucking WIN!

[grunt]

Not sure what site you went to. When I click on the link I see his name, the date and the article. No quotes from anybody.





So you are fully content with not only these soldiers wasting their time shuffling around McCain, wasting money not to mention the helicopter, so he could get a photo-op and use it to become president? Let me guess, you are upset about the pork in the supplimental spending, though.......even though that was from the previous senate.




Let me see.......on the one hand, I have what an Iraqi person who is there is saying on on the other I have a poster on a forum........decisions decisions....who should I believe?





Are you still of the mind set that al-quada is still the main problem in Baghdad?





See here again I am in the same quandry.......do I believe someone that is there, or you?

Al Queerda is a big problem in Iraq. The country of Iraq is certainly better now than it was 3yrs ago. There are some places that aren't. Those are the places the media dwells on. Death sells newspapers.

[Gaffer]

If I would of had to put my Marines or myslef in a more of a risky situation than needed, I would have been pissed. McCain, whom I highly respect, knows better than this and was being a politician instead of a highly decorated Naval Aviator. Soldiers and Marines do not need to be used as "bodyguards". if there was a need for him to be there, fine, but I'm sick and tired of Politicians getting in the fucking way and not allowing the military to do what it's trained for. And that is to fucking WIN!

They have units assigned just for those VIP escort duties. A friend of ours just came home the first of the year and he was assigned to just such a detail. They aren't just pulling guys out and making them body guards.

[grunt]

They have units assigned just for those VIP escort duties. A friend of ours just came home the first of the year and he was assigned to just such a detail. They aren't just pulling guys out and making them body guards.


I realize this...there are better uses for them. And using them as bodyguards is not that.

[Gaffer]

Want more info on how things are going in iraq, from a source that is THERE?

http://acutepolitics.blogspot.com/

He's seeing changes too.

[Gaffer]

I realize this...there are better uses for them. And using them as bodyguards is not that.

I agree that a bunch of congressmen playing politics is not a good use for the troops. But these guys are assigned this duty. It's not like they are pulled off of something else. Though most of the time they operate in smaller units with VIP's that are not so important. Congress people go there to make political points.

[Psychoblues]

Here is another thread addressing the same issue, lily. Within it you will find a link to an article with the publishers name, attachments and other pertinent information.

I don't put much credence in the words of anyone walking around in a bulletproof vest, an escort of about 100 fully armed American Soldiers, countless official Iraqi military operatives, at least 2 or 3 US Army gunship helicopters immediately overhead, USAirForce Fighter jets of an unknown number attached to just this mission and that person telling me that it's like a walk in the park. Sorry, Johnny, I ain't buying it!!!!!!

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=2194

On the other hand, I am not surprised. I have always until just the past year or so very much respected John McCain. I would have voted for him in 2000 had he achieved the nomination. But, we live with what we got. As much as we hope they don't or won't, Republicans have no problem with lying. If they have no problems telling lies on the big issues, just think what they are doing to the small ones!!!!










http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=2194

[lily]

I went to the link you gave in your post. Maybe his name was buried in the ads.

Well, I clicked on my link again and saw only the name of the paper, the author, the date and the article. If it helps your argument here:

By Kirk Semple Published: April 3, 2007




Well since they were protecting a bunch of congress people and high ranking officers I don't feel it was a waste of money. The soldiers might have thought it a waste of time. But then they have units there that specialize in protecting VIP's. And the cost for that operation wasn't even a fraction of the pork attached to the dem slow bleed bill.

Ok, I'll keep that in mind when a Democrat decides to to there and use it to further their campaign. Personally if any candidate want to go there and say how safe it is, they shouldn't need all that protection. I mean if the streets are safe enough to walk on, why would they need 100 soldiers guarding them plus the helicopter! I would think those 100 soldiers would be a nice replacement for soldiers that have been on their 5th tour of duty and that helicopter could be used for the ones that got shot down........but then I guess I might be thinking of the troops. Selfish, I know.





And your iraqi source is credible because....? Can we say Capt. Jamil Hussien? And other made up ap sources.

You have proof that these people are made up?





al queda IS the main source of the problems in iraq. The attacks on iraqi civilians are not being made by iraqi's. The tribes in the west, anbar province are going after the al queda in their midst and turning them in, at the same time they are joining the iraqi army and police forces.

Oh....ok.......I see you're still of the mindset that there is no civil war going on there. 5 years now and alquada is still going strong......oh well, bin Laden is still roaming around. Probably the tallest man in Afghainstan, he should be easy to spot, but then Bush has said he's not important.



MY iraqi sources tell me your sources are wrong. Try this site for real info.

Ok, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I read the first blog from an
artist in Baghdad talking about Istanbul and the main article:


Heavy Armor's Here.
Operation Imposing Law is in its seventh week now. Our last update on
the developments in Baghdad is now available on Pajamas Media:



"Evacuate all houses in the area around the Americans' base for we
shall attack it soon. Those occupiers will soon be gone from this land. Who
will protect you then?"

These were roughly the words in a leaflet the "mujahideen" distributed
in Adhamiya a few days ago. A distant relative who lives there received one.

This message reveals that terrorists and insurgents were planning
attacks on some of the joint security stations that American and Iraqi
forces have established in that section of Baghdad. And, in fact, one such
attack happened just this morning. The news reports here said that a joint
security station (or JSS) was attacked with a car-bomb. The location was
given as Sadr city though, not Adhamiya.

Around Baghdad today, there's a notable increase in the presence of
armored vehicles on the streets, - and I mean heavy armor. Humvees are
usually everywhere. Stryker vehicles come second and are quite occasionally
spotted. The much more serious Bradley's and tanks are usually quite rare,
but today they too are abundant particularly in Rasafa, the eastern half of
the Baghdad.

We've witnessed patrols of three to four Bradley vehicles rumbling
through the streets; at times passing the same street more than a few times.
Exactly what this increase in activity portends is always difficult to know
until afterwards. The security forces do not share their motives and
movements beforehand...

This is suppose to change my mind an make me think Iraq is better?



The kicking out of the shea majority?

Well, if they kicked out the shea majority that's great. I'm however worried about the Shia majority.

[Gaffer]

Well, I clicked on my link again and saw only the name of the paper, the author, the date and the article. If it helps your argument here:

By Kirk Semple Published: April 3, 2007

Thanks, I must have missed it.



Ok, I'll keep that in mind when a Democrat decides to to there and use it to further their campaign. Personally if any candidate want to go there and say how safe it is, they shouldn't need all that protection. I mean if the streets are safe enough to walk on, why would they need 100 soldiers guarding them plus the helicopter! I would think those 100 soldiers would be a nice replacement for soldiers that have been on their 5th tour of duty and that helicopter could be used for the ones that got shot down........but then I guess I might be thinking of the troops. Selfish, I know.

dems have been going there and using it for their same political gains. And they get the same protection. In the case of high profile VIP's there is always over protection. You really have no concept of the military do you. The soldier performing that detail are ALREADY IN IRAQ. They didn't come in just to escort a bunch of senators. Most of them are probably already on their third or fourth tour. A chopper that would normally be patroling over the city is assigned to a specific area for an hour. Big deal. It's all resources that's already on hand.




You have proof that these people are made up?

You have proof they are real?




Oh....ok.......I see you're still of the mindset that there is no civil war going on there. 5 years now and alquada is still going strong......oh well, bin Laden is still roaming around. Probably the tallest man in Afghainstan, he should be easy to spot, but then Bush has said he's not important.

The facts show there is a war going on with al queda. Most of the iraqi's are helping in that war. There is still some secular violence going on, which will continue long after we have left there. But there is no civil war. That's just a lib myth to make things look bad. And you buy into it.


Ok, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I read the first blog from an
artist in Baghdad talking about Istanbul and the main article:

You might read some of his other blogs as well. He reports on the good and bad things going on there. And he doesn't mention a civil war. He's just a regular guy telling what he sees and experiences.


This is suppose to change my mind an make me think Iraq is better?

You will never change your mind and you will never think iraq is better. That's not something you want. You want negative things to happen so you can condemn Bush for it and you want nothing less than that.


Well, if they kicked out the shea majority that's great. I'm however worried about the Shia majority.

The sadr element has been removed or nullified in the iraqi government. Maliki is taking control of the country. sadr city is a target now, along with sunni militia, that are joining the government and US forces in taking on al queda. sadr has run off to iran so his mahdi army is leaderless. al queda is making desperation attacks and they will continue for a while. But over all we are winning. Inspite of you and the libs that want us to lose at all cost.

[lily]

dems have been going there and using it for their same political gains. And they get the same protection. In the case of high profile VIP's there is always over protection. You really have no concept of the military do you. The soldier performing that detail are ALREADY IN IRAQ. They didn't come in just to escort a bunch of senators. Most of them are probably already on their third or fourth tour. A chopper that would normally be patroling over the city is assigned to a specific area for an hour. Big deal. It's all resources that's already on hand.

What I am getting at is both sides need to stop using Iraq as their personal campaign photo-op. Soldiers have more importan things to do. I as a taxpayer want to pay for the soldiers, not for someone to go to Baghdad, put on a show, then leave.



You have proof they are real?

Unless you disprove my source, which has been reporting from Iraq for a long time, then yes I do.




The facts show there is a war going on with al queda. Most of the iraqi's are helping in that war. There is still some secular violence going on, which will continue long after we have left there. But there is no civil war. That's just a lib myth to make things look bad. And you buy into it.

How does it feel to live in 2001?




You will never change your mind and you will never think iraq is better. That's not something you want. You want negative things to happen so you can condemn Bush for it and you want nothing less than that.

Gee......and here I thought you were a better convererser that to throw out the Republican talking points.....well let's see.......When the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down.........been 5 years now and we need a surge.....what does that tell you?



The sadr element has been removed or nullified in the iraqi government. Maliki is taking control of the country. sadr city is a target now, along with sunni militia, that are joining the government and US forces in taking on al queda. sadr has run off to iran so his mahdi army is leaderless. al queda is making desperation attacks and they will continue for a while. But over all we are winning. Inspite of you and the libs that want us to lose at all cost.

Um....they moved out of Sadr City and now are in the cities that they weren't in before.......or didn't you know that last week 500 Iraqis died? Whle you mentioned al Sadr.....do you think it was a good idea to broker the deal with him and his "merry men" to leave Najaf with their weapons?

[Dilloduck]

Gee......and here I thought you were a better convererser that to throw out the Republican talking points.....well let's see.......When the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down.........been 5 years now and we need a surge.....what does that tell you?

It tells me that for some reason the Iraqis have not stood up yet and are still in the process of deciding what they will stand up as. It would be cool if Iran and foreign fighters could stay out of it.

[manu1959]

So, I wonder how much this little photo-op cost the American taxpayers. I would think that 100 soldiers and a helicopter could be put to better use.....


like what...traveling to damascus to help protect the group of individuals undermining the forigen policy of the president of the united states?

[grunt]

like what...traveling to damascus to help protect the group of individuals undermining the forigen policy of the president of the united states?


Actually, I would have rather seen some troops sent there. And then bomb the hell out of the building she was in.

[Gaffer]

What I am getting at is both sides need to stop using Iraq as their personal campaign photo-op. Soldiers have more importan things to do. I as a taxpayer want to pay for the soldiers, not for someone to go to Baghdad, put on a show, then leave.

Yes I can agree with that. No congress person need to be going there.


Unless you disprove my source, which has been reporting from Iraq for a long time, then yes I do.

Well your source seems to go out of his way to find iraqi's with negative opinions.



How does it feel to live in 2001?

I don't understan what your talking about here.



Gee......and here I thought you were a better convererser that to throw out the Republican talking points.....well let's see.......When the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down.........been 5 years now and we need a surge.....what does that tell you?

All I hear from liberals is the usual "I hate Bush" garbage. Never any real arguement about what they feel is right or how they will change something. I didn't give talking points. I gave my opinion that you will not change your mind no matter what I say or how many facts I give.

The iraqi's are standing up. That's what I was pointing too in the sites I gave. Nothing is done overnight. But more and more of the iraqi tribes are switching over to the government and assisting the troops. The army and police there are getting recruits by the thousands in areas they couldn't go without a fight. We needed the surge three years ago. That was one of the mistakes Bush is now correcting.


Um....they moved out of Sadr City and now are in the cities that they weren't in before.......or didn't you know that last week 500 Iraqis died? Whle you mentioned al Sadr.....do you think it was a good idea to broker the deal with him and his "merry men" to leave Najaf with their weapons?

The al queda thugs are moving out because they are being hard pressed, and they have always done that. Then we the American troops left they moved back in. This time the Americans and iraqi troops are not leaving and they are going out into the other towns and areas to look for these guys.

Most of the attacks and killing are al queda against iraqi citizens in retaliation for the iraqi's turning them in and fight them. al queda is losing big time now and is striking out. Again, it won't stop over night.

sadr should have been killed when they had him bottled up back in 03. He wasn't because there were too many of his supporters in parliment at the time. A reshuffling of the parliment about a month ago has changed the power stucture there. Maliki has a freer hand in dealing with that madman. That's why sadr ran to iran. He no longer had the political protection. His followers are going to be a factor to deal with in the future though as I expect he will try to come back and overthrow the government in the future.

[lily]

It tells me that for some reason the Iraqis have not stood up yet and are still in the process of deciding what they will stand up as. It would be cool if Iran and foreign fighters could stay out of it.

They haven't decided what they will stand up for.....after 5 years? Come on, I would fall for that after a year.....hell, I'd give them two years...but 5 years?

Well, one good thing, we don't have to hear When they stand up, we'll stand down anymore. Was nice for a slogan, but shit for a battle plan.

[lily]

like what...traveling to damascus to help protect the group of individuals undermining the forigen policy of the president of the united states?

No.....like what I said, but nice try.:salute:

[lily]

Well your source seems to go out of his way to find iraqi's with negative opinions.

While that may be your opinion, it doesn't prove your point.




How does it feel to live in 2001?

I don't understan what your talking about here.

In 2001 in may have been al-quada. It's not just them anymore. Sunnis are killing Shia, by the thousands. Where I come from that's a civil war. If you prefer the sanitized version the White House uses, I'm fine with sectarian violence, since it means the same thing.



All I hear from liberals is the usual "I hate Bush" garbage. .

Where have I said I hate Bush? I don't like what he is doing to this country.


Never any real arguement about what they feel is right or how they will change something. I didn't give talking points. I gave my opinion that you will not change your mind no matter what I say or how many facts I give.

Really? Here I thought all along I was telling you what I would do with those 100 soldiers and helicopter.


The iraqi's are standing up. That's what I was pointing too in the sites I gave. Nothing is done overnight. But more and more of the iraqi tribes are switching over to the government and assisting the troops. The army and police there are getting recruits by the thousands in areas they couldn't go without a fight. We needed the surge three years ago. That was one of the mistakes Bush is now correcting.

After five years, one would think that we wouldn't be needed anymore. Well, I guess if I had someone doing the dying for me, I'd sit back and let them too.




The al queda thugs are moving out because they are being hard pressed, and they have always done that. Then we the American troops left they moved back in. This time the Americans and iraqi troops are not leaving and they are going out into the other towns and areas to look for these guys.

That's going to work for Baghdad. What about the cities they are moving to?


Most of the attacks and killing are al queda against iraqi citizens in retaliation for the iraqi's turning them in and fight them. al queda is losing big time now and is striking out. Again, it won't stop over night.

I'd like a link to an article that says that most of the attacks are in retaliation for the Iraqi's turning them in. I'd like this article to explain the 500 deaths last week also.


sadr should have been killed when they had him bottled up back in 03. He wasn't because there were too many of his supporters in parliment at the time.

What are you talking about? They didn't vote for parliment until 2005.





The al queda thugs are moving out because they are being hard pressed, and they have always done that. Then we the American troops left they moved back in. This time the Americans and iraqi troops are not leaving and they are going out into the other towns and areas to look for these guys.

How are they going to do that? Have another surge?

[Dilloduck]

They haven't decided what they will stand up for.....after 5 years? Come on, I would fall for that after a year.....hell, I'd give them two years...but 5 years?

Well, one good thing, we don't have to hear When they stand up, we'll stand down anymore. Was nice for a slogan, but shit for a battle plan.

If you were honest you know full well that it's two Muslim sects fighting for power mixed in with outside neighbors doing everything they can to destabalize the region. Americans can't even agree on who to stand up for.
"When they stand up, we'll stand down" was never a battle plan. It is an explanation to all those impatient bastards who don't understand how important this is.

[lily]

If you were honest you know full well that it's two Muslim sects fighting for power mixed in with outside neighbors doing everything they can to destabalize the region.

I think you have me mistaken with another poster who thinks we're still fighting al-quada. I've been saying all along it's 2 Muslim sects.....thus a civil war.




Americans can't even agree on who to stand up for.

I'll agree with you %100 on that.........so why are they there? We've got the best fighting force in the world, bar none. Tell them which side we want in power and get 'er done and be done with it! Otherwise stop wasting their lives.


"When they stand up, we'll stand down" was never a battle plan. It is an explanation to all those impatient bastards who don't understand how important this is.

Oh really? Then how come that's what we've heard for years, until he asked for the surge? I thought all along that was the plan.

[Dilloduck]

[QUOTE=lily;34943]I think you have me mistaken with another poster who thinks we're still fighting al-quada. I've been saying all along it's 2 Muslim sects.....thus a civil war.

Al queada is still there as are Iranians


I'll agree with you %100 on that.........so why are they there? We've got the best fighting force in the world, bar none. Tell them which side we want in power and get 'er done and be done with it! Otherwise stop wasting their lives.

Obviously you're unaware of our experience with propping up proxy governments.


Oh really? Then how come that's what we've heard for years, until he asked for the surge? I thought all along that was the plan.

Which is why there's no point in trying to explain things to you. A battle plan and a statement explaining when we plan to leave are different things.

[manu1959]

No.....like what I said, but nice try.:salute:

so you don't think visitng politicians should have military escorts?

so pelosi should not have SS protection or a plane...i actually agree with you....

[lily]

[QUOTE]

Al queada is still there as are Iranians

Agreed..but I also thought we agreed the main fighting was between the 2 sects?




Obviously you're unaware of our experience with propping up proxy governments.

Yes, we're well known for it, let's face it, that's the way it's going to end up anyway.........so stop tying the soldiers hands behind their backs and let them get the job done.

[manu1959]

there are several wars:

a religious one sunni shia

bathists vs coalition

mercenaries vs coalition

al queda vs coalition

media vs coalition

anyone notice the kurds are cool?

[lily]

so you don't think visitng politicians should have military escorts?

so pelosi should not have SS protection or a plane...i actually agree with you....

I'm really trying to be patient with you manu, because I'm not sure if you have a reading disablity or not.

What does Pelosi's right to have SS protection and a plane, just like every other speaker in the history of plane travel have to do with what we are discussing?

If she goes to Baghdad and pulls a stunt like this, get back to me, ok?

[manu1959]

I'm really trying to be patient with you manu, because I'm not sure if you have a reading disablity or not.

What does Pelosi's right to have SS protection and a plane, just like every other speaker in the history of plane travel have to do with what we are discussing?

If she goes to Baghdad and pulls a stunt like this, get back to me, ok?

remeber trying is failing with honour...

anyway... pelosi should be protected for her photo op but mccain shouldn't?

[lily]

remeber trying is failing with honour...

HUH????


anyway... pelosi should be protected for her photo op but mccain shouldn't?

Pelosi is using her plane to go home for a photo-op? ????

Ok......then if she rides that plane to Baghdad, takes 100 soildiers with her and the helicopter takes her picture, maybe you'd have a point.


I might suggest taking your Pelosi red herring to one of the 10 Pelosi thread. Right now we're discussing Iraq, ok?:salute:

[manu1959]

HUH????
Pelosi is using her plane to go home for a photo-op? ????
Ok......then if she rides that plane to Baghdad, takes 100 soildiers with her and the helicopter takes her picture, maybe you'd have a point.
I might suggest taking your Pelosi red herring to one of the 10 Pelosi thread. Right now we're discussing Iraq, ok?:salute:

so how did pelosi get to syria? did she have military protection?

how did mcain get to iraq? did he have militray protection?

you said mcain should not have his....

"So, I wonder how much this little photo-op cost the American taxpayers. I would think that 100 soldiers and a helicopter could be put to better use....."


you said you would try to be patient...trying to do something is admiting failure before you start.

are you sure you are a blue stater?

[lily]

=lily;34506]From original article:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/03/news/baghdad.php

<snip>

Several merchants said Monday that the Americans' visit may have only made
the market a more inviting target for insurgents.

"Every time the government announces anything - that the electricity is good
or the water supply is good - the insurgents come to attack it immediately,"
said Abu Samer, 49, who would give only his nickname out of concern for his
safety.

But even though he was fearful of a revenge attack, he said, he could not
afford to stay away from the market. This was his livelihood.

"We can never anticipate when they will attack," he said, his voice heavy
with gloomy resignation. "This is not a new worry."






http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1604931.ece

April 3, 2007

Lorry bomb kills children in school
James Hider in Baghdad
A newborn baby was one of at least 14 children and adults killed when a
suicide bomber detonated a lorry laden with explosives close to a primary
school in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk yesterday.

The latest massacre of Iraqi children came as 21 Shia market workers were
ambushed, bound and shot dead north of the capital. The victims came from
the Baghdad market visited the previous day by John McCain, the US
presidential candidate, who said that an American security plan in the
capital was starting to show signs of progress.

The Kirkuk bloodshed erupted when a bomber driving a truck full of
explosives hidden by sacks of flour targeted an Iraqi police station that US
soldiers were visiting. The full force of the blast hit a nearby primary
school.

Buthayna Mahmud, 10, was horrified to see the bodies of her classmates
strewn on the ground in flames. "Everyone I saw was wearing the blue school
uniform drenched with blood. Some of their dresses were torn. I only saw
fire. I heard teachers and students shouting," she said. "When we rushed out
of the school, we saw pupils on the ground, some of them burning."

[manu1959]

=lily;34506]From original article:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/03/news/baghdad.php

<snip>

Several merchants said Monday that the Americans' visit may have only made
the market a more inviting target for insurgents.

"Every time the government announces anything - that the electricity is good
or the water supply is good - the insurgents come to attack it immediately,"
said Abu Samer, 49, who would give only his nickname out of concern for his
safety.

But even though he was fearful of a revenge attack, he said, he could not
afford to stay away from the market. This was his livelihood.

"We can never anticipate when they will attack," he said, his voice heavy
with gloomy resignation. "This is not a new worry."

oh i get it now...because mcain exists... terrorist kill people....

[lily]

If I wrote it out in crayon, would you be able to read it then, or do I have to draw pictures?

[manu1959]

If I wrote it out in crayon, would you be able to read it then, or do I have to draw pictures?

left handed with pictures would be good....

[Gaffer]

=lily;34506]From original article:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/03/news/baghdad.php

<snip>

Several merchants said Monday that the Americans' visit may have only made
the market a more inviting target for insurgents.

"Every time the government announces anything - that the electricity is good
or the water supply is good - the insurgents come to attack it immediately,"
said Abu Samer, 49, who would give only his nickname out of concern for his
safety.

But even though he was fearful of a revenge attack, he said, he could not
afford to stay away from the market. This was his livelihood.

"We can never anticipate when they will attack," he said, his voice heavy
with gloomy resignation. "This is not a new worry."

Sounds like a revenge attack to make mccain look bad. And based on the article there were two attacks. One to single out people from the market and one to kill innocent children. All al queda tactics. Especially suicide bombing. The iraqi's don't do that. The ambush of the market people shows why there were 100 soldiers there to secure the senator. Note the report did not say the ambush took part in the market but an area north of baghdad.

sunni and shea groups murdering each other is not a civil war. There are also thugs, known as ali baba's that are killing for money. The usual criminal element taking advantage of the things going on. That's not a civil war either.

I have posted links in this and other threads. I am not going to continually post links just because you demand it.

al queda is being forced out of baghdad, and they are moving to other cities. But they are being followed and continually engaged. More suicide bombings and murders are taking place because they are desperate now and striking out at anyone they can. This is going to continue.

[lily]

Sounds like a revenge attack to make mccain look bad. And based on the article there were two attacks. One to single out people from the market and one to kill innocent children. All al queda tactics. Especially suicide bombing. The iraqi's don't do that. The ambush of the market people shows why there were 100 soldiers there to secure the senator. Note the report did not say the ambush took part in the market but an area north of baghdad.

Well....that's your opinion. The facts don't back you up.


sunni and shea groups murdering each other is not a civil war. There are also thugs, known as ali baba's that are killing for money. The usual criminal element taking advantage of the things going on. That's not a civil war either.

I have posted links in this and other threads. I am not going to continually post links just because you demand it.

Sorry.......I don't read all your posts. I'm not demaning anything. I'm asking. If you don't want to provide links, then I'm not obliged to take your word on anything........just as you wouldn't for me.


al queda is being forced out of baghdad, and they are moving to other cities. But they are being followed and continually engaged. More suicide bombings and murders are taking place because they are desperate now and striking out at anyone they can. This is going to continue.

...........and continue and continue and continue, until new leadership is voted in, or the Democarts stop it.

[Dilloduck]

Well....that's your opinion. The facts don't back you up.



Sorry.......I don't read all your posts. I'm not demaning anything. I'm asking. If you don't want to provide links, then I'm not obliged to take your word on anything........just as you wouldn't for me.



...........and continue and continue and continue, until new leadership is voted in, or the Democarts stop it.

So what' taking them so damn long ?

[lily]

I'm not much for excuses, but since you asked, Dill....they've only been in power for 3 months. In these 3 months they've done everything they said they were going to do. Now we are wroking on getting this war over.....but the President doesn't "play well with others". Now after all have had their break, maybe we can sit down and get this funding worked out....give a little take a little........it's something Bush has got to learn to do. The blank check and rubber stamping of everything is over. This is the way our founding fathers wanted it.

[Dilloduck]

I'm not much for excuses, but since you asked, Dill....they've only been in power for 3 months. In these 3 months they've done everything they said they were going to do. Now we are wroking on getting this war over.....but the President doesn't "play well with others". Now after all have had their break, maybe we can sit down and get this funding worked out....give a little take a little........it's something Bush has got to learn to do. The blank check and rubber stamping of everything is over. This is the way our founding fathers wanted it.

In other words-----they can't.

[lily]

In other words-----they can't.

They can't what? They fulfilled their 100 hour pledge. Now I admit maybe this wasn't fair, since they did work a 5 day work week.......

[Dilloduck]

They can't what? They fulfilled their 100 hour pledge. Now I admit maybe this wasn't fair, since they did work a 5 day work week.......

Wow--and how much of this "pledge" has been passed by the senate and signed by the president? Are we to be impressed by zero ? The house is as lame as the president.

[lily]

Oh I see how this works. The House passes them and then the Republicans stonewall them.......and you're proud of this?:salute:

[Kathianne]

Oh I see how this works. The House passes them and then the Republicans stonewall them.......and you're proud of this?:salute:

Who is in the majority?

[Dilloduck]

Oh I see how this works. The House passes them and then the Republicans stonewall them.......and you're proud of this?:salute:

You mean you have just now figured out what it takes to get a bill passed? Symbolic gestures like this are used by one party to make the other party look bad. Like I said--the democrats haven't withdrawn our troops because they can't.

[lily]

Who is in the majority?

By 1 in the senate. We didn't get the double amount like we did in the house and there's Lieberman. Who exactly stopped the debate on the troop increase to get their own way.............hey this finger pointing is fun! Doesn't promote much debate, but then I doubt you're here for that.:salute:

[Dilloduck]

By 1 in the senate. We didn't get the double amount like we did in the house and there's Lieberman. Who exactly stopped the debate on the troop increase to get their own way.............hey this finger pointing is fun! Doesn't promote much debate, but then I doubt you're here for that.:salute:

You are actually asking us to believe that you just now discovered finger pointing?

[lily]

You are actually asking us to believe that you just now discovered finger pointing?

Um, no..........and no offense to the forum, but not as often on any of the other forums I go to. I don't know if it's just because some don't have anything to say but look at what so and so did, or they feel threatened by the few left sided posters that post here.

Don't get me wrong, there are posters I look forward to debating here, but some here can't debate their way out of a paper bag and think posting one line zingers, or a smilie is making a point.

[Dilloduck]

Um, no..........and no offense to the forum, but not as often on any of the other forums I go to. I don't know if it's just because some don't have anything to say but look at what so and so did, or they feel threatened by the few left sided posters that post here.

Don't get me wrong, there are posters I look forward to debating here, but some here can't debate their way out of a paper bag and think posting one line zingers, or a smilie is making a point.

Maybe--or maybe they don't think you are making points valid enough to respond to. All I know is that you constantly are pointing a finger at Bush et al yet condemn those who point fingers at liberals.

[lily]

Maybe--or maybe they don't think you are making points valid enough to respond to.

Yet they still feel the need to.


All I know is that you constantly are pointing a finger at Bush et al yet condemn those who point fingers at liberals.

Hmmmm and here I thought we were having a civil debate. There is a difference between pointing a finger at Bush and discussing. Like it or not, he is the President and that's what most political debate forums discuss. The point I am getting at is it doesn't seem like 2 posts go by, before the insulting begins or someone changes the subject to yeah but Clinton lied.

Like I said, I'm not knocking the forum, just stating my opinion.

[Dilloduck]

Yet they still feel the need to.



Hmmmm and here I thought we were having a civil debate. There is a difference between pointing a finger at Bush and discussing. Like it or not, he is the President and that's what most political debate forums discuss. The point I am getting at is it doesn't seem like 2 posts go by, before the insulting begins or someone changes the subject to yeah but Clinton lied.

Like I said, I'm not knocking the forum, just stating my opinion.

I'll agree that it takes very little time before a discussion or debate turns to shit. Hyper-partisanship is boring as hell and keeping our country a mess.

[lily]

I'll agree that it takes very little time before a discussion or debate turns to shit. Hyper-partisanship is boring as hell and keeping our country a mess.

........and I think I can agree with you that it's not one sided. Both sides of the isle do it.

Now if we could just solve the world problems this easily.