View Full Version : The concept of only some "being saved"...
Ya know what I find funny? Christians have NO problems saying that "thru one man (Adam- just a regular guy), Sin entered the world" - yet for them to admit that "through one man, (Christ who was God) the whole world is saved"... is nearly impossible....
They say we didn't choose to be born into sin (Adam made that Choice) - so I ask - if that's the case, how can Adams choice be enough to curse us all but that "God's not willing ANY would perish" somehow gets swept under the rug? Isn't God's will (choice) that much more powerful than the choice of Adam?
Am I the only one lost on the "Logic" of evangelicals who believe in only "certain folks" to be saved?
Romans 5 goes into even more detail about the parallel, of how "just as" through the one man everyone fell, "so through" Christ all will be redeemed again. By denying this, they are essentially implying that feeble human Adam had better success wrecking the world than Christ did rectifying it.
PostmodernProphet
07-04-2009, 10:12 PM
Ya know what I find funny? Christians have NO problems saying that "thru one man (Adam- just a regular guy), Sin entered the world" - yet for them to admit that "through one man, (Christ who was God) the whole world is saved"... is nearly impossible....
They say we didn't choose to be born into sin (Adam made that Choice) - so I ask - if that's the case, how can Adams choice be enough to curse us all but that "God's not willing ANY would perish" somehow gets swept under the rug? Isn't God's will (choice) that much more powerful than the choice of Adam?
Am I the only one lost on the "Logic" of evangelicals who believe in only "certain folks" to be saved?
Romans 5 goes into even more detail about the parallel, of how "just as" through the one man everyone fell, "so through" Christ all will be redeemed again. By denying this, they are essentially implying that feeble human Adam had better success wrecking the world than Christ did rectifying it.
????....I am puzzled regarding your confusion.....of course Christ's death on the cross is sufficient for all......but some refuse to accept it and thus are not saved.....everyone who chooses to believe in Christ is one of those "certain folks" who are saved...
how does that make Adam more powerful than Christ....we are not condemned because of Adam's choice, we are condemned because of our own choice.....
Because - according to your logic - sin can enter the world (i.e. make us all sinners) yet God's own blood isn't good enough to cover that sin.
I had no choice to be a sinner, did I? Nor did you? Nor has anyone since Adam...
Again - your saying Adam had better success wrecking the world than Christ did rectifying it. I.E. Adam - who is a MAN - made us all sinners - yet GOD's own blood isn't good enough at saving all unless they somehow choose?
avatar4321
07-05-2009, 02:16 AM
An interesting verse on that:
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Tim 4:10)
So Christ saves all men, especially those that believe. What is to be meant by that? How can He especially be a Savior to those who believe? How does He save those who dont believe?
I think I can answer that, to a degree at least.
Christ saves all mankind through the resurrection. All men, believer and non-believer will be saved from death regardless of whether we believe in Christ. Because as one man brought death into this world, so one man shall take it away.
Now Salvation from sin, seems conditioned on Repentence. Because Christ came to save us from our sins, not in our sins. And in order to repent we must believe in Christ and His power.
An interesting verse on that:
So Christ saves all men, especially those that believe. What is to be meant by that? How can He especially be a Savior to those who believe? How does He save those who dont believe?
I think I can answer that, to a degree at least.
Christ saves all mankind through the resurrection. All men, believer and non-believer will be saved from death regardless of whether we believe in Christ. Because as one man brought death into this world, so one man shall take it away.
Now Salvation from sin, seems conditioned on Repentence. Because Christ came to save us from our sins, not in our sins. And in order to repent we must believe in Christ and His power.
Also, can't forget this one:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
John 12:32
The greek word for "Draw" here is drag... Christ will drag all men to himself..
I guess Christ must be a liar if in fact the overwhelming majority of people ever created will live in "eternal torment" - which would also make Christ's work on the cross a colossal failure...
Also - There is a difference between being "saved," and being "born again." The word "saved" means "rescued; delivered; healed; made whole." These are actions that are usually made to change the conditions of one who needs them. . It is an entirely different concept from "being born," which, with humans, is supposed to be the result of love, or the desire to have children (& hopefully both). Being born does not save someone
To our natural minds, it is simply impossible that Christ's death could bring salvation to the whole world, even as it seemed impossible to Mary that she should bear the Son of God, since she knew no man. "And you yourselves, who were strangers to God, and, in fact, through the evil things you had done, his spiritual enemies, he has now reconciled" (Col. 1:21, Phillips).
The religious systems of the world have made SIN the centre of their theology, and then formed a humanistic solution for dealing with the problem. John records for us the truth saying, “For God sent not his son into the world to CONDEMN the world, but that the world through him might be saved." Jn 3:17. The sending of the “WORD” into the world had nothing to do with condemnation but to giving life to all mankind.
There are basically three things that happen when you become aware of sin: 1. You become separated in your consciousness from God. 2. You sense guilt. 3. You experience accusation. The blood of Jesus answers sufficiently all three of these areas.
My privilege is to declare that Jesus Christ is "the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." (1 John 2:2) He was sent for one purpose and that is to be the Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:4)
PostmodernProphet
07-05-2009, 07:40 AM
Because - according to your logic - sin can enter the world (i.e. make us all sinners) yet God's own blood isn't good enough to cover that sin.
that's the part I don't understand....of course God's blood is enough to cover that sin....why on earth would you think it wasn't......this is the kind of error that usually gets corrected in third grade Sunday School....did you sleep through it?
I had no choice to be a sinner, did I? Nor did you? Nor has anyone since Adam...
lol.....you have a choice every time you sin, and I expect, like the rest of us, you made the wrong choice several times today.....you don't sin BECAUSE Adam sinned, you sin because your no better than Adam....
Again - your saying Adam had better success wrecking the world than Christ did rectifying it. I.E. Adam - who is a MAN - made us all sinners - yet GOD's own blood isn't good enough at saving all unless they somehow choose?
lol, you misunderstand the concept of Original Sin.....it isn't that we are condemned because of one, original sin.....it's that we, by reason of our identity as human beings are sinners at our origin, our beginning......it's Origin-al Sin.....
Like every human being, you've committed enough sin to earn your own condemnation....
PostmodernProphet
07-05-2009, 07:45 AM
I guess Christ must be a liar if in fact the overwhelming majority of people ever created will live in "eternal torment" - which would also make Christ's work on the cross a colossal failure...
1) why do you assume the overwhelming majority of people ever created refused to believe in God....
2) Christ's death on the cross isn't the failure.....the refusal of a human to accept salvation is the failure.....
There is a difference between being "saved," and being "born again."
/shrugs....no......there isn't.........
PostmodernProphet
07-05-2009, 07:48 AM
My privilege is to declare that Jesus Christ is "the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." (1 John 2:2) He was sent for one purpose and that is to be the Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:4)
so tell me.....since you seem to be dancing around it....what is your opinion regarding the future of those who have been offered salvation through Christ's death on the cross but refuse to believe he exists.....are you implying (while carefully avoiding saying) that they are going to be saved even though they refuse to believe God even exists?......
so tell me.....since you seem to be dancing around it....what is your opinion regarding the future of those who have been offered salvation through Christ's death on the cross but refuse to believe he exists.....are you implying (while carefully avoiding saying) that they are going to be saved even though they refuse to believe God even exists?......
I believe that it's quite clear - from scripture - that God will reconcile ALL of his creation back to himself..
PostmodernProphet
07-05-2009, 01:20 PM
what about the unpardonable sin, rejection of the spirit?.....
that's the part I don't understand....of course God's blood is enough to cover that sin....why on earth would you think it wasn't......this is the kind of error that usually gets corrected in third grade Sunday School....did you sleep through it?
lol.....you have a choice every time you sin, and I expect, like the rest of us, you made the wrong choice several times today.....you don't sin BECAUSE Adam sinned, you sin because your no better than Adam....
lol, you misunderstand the concept of Original Sin.....it isn't that we are condemned because of one, original sin.....it's that we, by reason of our identity as human beings are sinners at our origin, our beginning......it's Origin-al Sin.....
Like every human being, you've committed enough sin to earn your own condemnation....
You need to go re-read your Bible sir.. and.. it'd be nice if you'd use scripture rather than platitudes...
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
Romans 5:12
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
PostmodernProphet
07-05-2009, 05:21 PM
You need to go re-read your Bible sir.. and.. it'd be nice if you'd use scripture rather than platitudes...
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
Romans 5:12
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
???...I don't need to reread anything.....but you need to reread my posts....I have said nothing that contradicts those verses....now, respond to the comments I posted that contradict yours....
darin
07-05-2009, 05:54 PM
If God's preference is for ALL to be saved, he'd have said "Because it's God's will, ALL shall" instead of "It's God's will non should perish, but all should find Forgiveness".
Clearly implies not all will be 'saved'
If God's preference is for ALL to be saved, he'd have said "Because it's God's will, ALL shall" instead of "It's God's will non should perish, but all should find Forgiveness".
Clearly implies not all will be 'saved'
Seems clear to me that it's HIS WILL that nobody will perish (die)... who are we to circumvent his Will?
If God's preference is for ALL to be saved, he'd have said "Because it's God's will, ALL shall" instead of "It's God's will non should perish, but all should find Forgiveness".
Clearly implies not all will be 'saved'
If God's preference is for ALL to be saved, he'd have said "Because it's God's will, ALL shall" instead of "It's God's will non should perish, but all should find Forgiveness".
Clearly implies not all will be 'saved'
Seems clear to me that it's HIS WILL that nobody will perish (die)... who are we to circumvent his Will?
Additionally, when seeking biblical truths - we must always look at the overwhelming theme (many scriptures in context etc) and not cherry-pick ones to support our view.
That means we must keep the above scripture in context with the following:
1. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
John 12:32
The greek word for "Draw" here is drag... Christ will drag all men to himself..I guess Christ must be a liar if in fact the overwhelming majority of people ever created will live in "eternal torment" - which would also make Christ's work on the cross a colossal failure...
2. To our natural minds, it is simply impossible that Christ's death could bring salvation to the whole world, even as it seemed impossible to Mary that she should bear the Son of God, since she knew no man. "And you yourselves, who were strangers to God, and, in fact, through the evil things you had done, his spiritual enemies, he has now reconciled" (Col. 1:21, Phillips).
3. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
Romans 5:12
4. Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
chloe
07-05-2009, 07:14 PM
Ya know what I find funny? Christians have NO problems saying that "thru one man (Adam- just a regular guy), Sin entered the world" - yet for them to admit that "through one man, (Christ who was God) the whole world is saved"... is nearly impossible....
They say we didn't choose to be born into sin (Adam made that Choice) - so I ask - if that's the case, how can Adams choice be enough to curse us all but that "God's not willing ANY would perish" somehow gets swept under the rug? Isn't God's will (choice) that much more powerful than the choice of Adam?
Am I the only one lost on the "Logic" of evangelicals who believe in only "certain folks" to be saved?
Romans 5 goes into even more detail about the parallel, of how "just as" through the one man everyone fell, "so through" Christ all will be redeemed again. By denying this, they are essentially implying that feeble human Adam had better success wrecking the world than Christ did rectifying it.
no, I am lost too.
PostmodernProphet
07-05-2009, 07:38 PM
Seems clear to me that it's HIS WILL that nobody will perish (die)... who are we to circumvent his Will?
the only ones circumventing his will would be those denying his existence....so when you ask "who are we to circumvent his will" the answer is God-deniers......
PostmodernProphet
07-05-2009, 07:43 PM
.I guess Christ must be a liar if in fact the overwhelming majority of people ever created will live in "eternal torment" - which would also make Christ's work on the cross a colossal failure...
I asked you before but you dodged it....I will ask again....what inside knowledge to you have regarding the percentage of people who choose not to believe in God......did he whisper the numbers in your ear?
To our natural minds, it is simply impossible that Christ's death could bring salvation to the whole world
dude, again....it isn't a difficult concept at all....everyone knows Christ's death was sufficient to bring salvation to the whole world.....the problem is you keep ignoring the question of those who refuse to accept it.....
do you expect them to be saved when they refuse it, outright?.....
I asked you before but you dodged it....I will ask again....what inside knowledge to you have regarding the percentage of people who choose not to believe in God......did he whisper the numbers in your ear?
dude, again....it isn't a difficult concept at all....everyone knows Christ's death was sufficient to bring salvation to the whole world.....the problem is you keep ignoring the question of those who refuse to accept it.....
do you expect them to be saved when they refuse it, outright?.....
The Bible is quite clear when it says:
EVERY Knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord..
"God has given him a name which is above every name – that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord…" Philippians 2:9-11.
PostmodernProphet
07-06-2009, 05:33 AM
is this passage less clear?....
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
or John 3
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
chesswarsnow
07-06-2009, 07:48 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. Well its clear to me.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
PostmodernProphet
07-06-2009, 08:31 AM
The Bible is quite clear when it says:
EVERY Knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord..
"God has given him a name which is above every name – that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord…" Philippians 2:9-11.
I don't think this ranks as semantics, but did you notice how you had to change the verb in your statement from that which appears in scripture.....
Paul wrote "every knee SHOULD bow", CP wrote "every knee WILL bow".....
chesswarsnow
07-06-2009, 09:09 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. If your trying to lean towards a certain interpretaion, I can see how that would help.
2. Bending the word of God, isn't a good idea, I don't think.
3. I know that many religions have different interpretations on the word of God, but I don't judge them.
4. Main thing is they are Christ as the central doctrine.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
is this passage less clear?....
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
or John 3
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Yup. and at the time they see him face to face and bow before him - what a beautiful sight of restoration that'll be!
is this passage less clear?....
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
or John 3
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
What God is determined to destroy in the sinner is that which makes him a sinner, and he prodeeds towards him as a good parent must, to eradicate it by punishment. An angry mother--a true mother--punishes her wayward boy, just as God punishes the wicked, because she loves him. The boy may call it anger, but it is that kind which will not harm a hair of his head. It is indeed the highest love; it is determined on the child's welfare, and so will not shrink from inflicting pain. But it is temporary. This is evident when we remember that men are told to be like God, and yet they must not let the sun go down upon their wrath. We must love our enemies that we may be children of the highest. If God were angry every day, and we were like him, we should be cross, petulant, wrathful, vindictive and hateful all the time. But we can only be like God as we "put off anger" (Col. iii:8) and "put away all wrath, anger and malice," (Eph. iv:31) inasmuch as "a fool's wrath is presently known," (Prov. xii:16) while "he that is slow to wrath is of great understanding." (Prov. xivv:28)
"God is not angry with the wicked every day," is the correct reading of this passage, and it must be true of him who is Love, and who is unchangeable, that he never was, never is, and never will be--for he never can be--angry with any human being in any other sense than that his righteous indignation burns towards those traits that cause his children to sin, and that it will continue to burn until it destroys those traits, and transforms his enemies into friends. "The man who destroyed his enemies" transformed them to friends. God's anger will destroy the enmity of his enemies. He will always be kind to the unthankful and evil. He "is not angry with the wicked every day."
Kathianne
07-06-2009, 03:22 PM
I remember Joseph beating Jesus for getting 'lost' while sitting with the rabbis. He wanted Him to know how to get to heaven.
PostmodernProphet
07-06-2009, 04:35 PM
What God is determined to destroy in the sinner is that which makes him a sinner, and he prodeeds towards him as a good parent must, to eradicate it by punishment. An angry mother--a true mother--punishes her wayward boy, just as God punishes the wicked, because she loves him. The boy may call it anger, but it is that kind which will not harm a hair of his head. It is indeed the highest love; it is determined on the child's welfare, and so will not shrink from inflicting pain. But it is temporary. This is evident when we remember that men are told to be like God, and yet they must not let the sun go down upon their wrath. We must love our enemies that we may be children of the highest. If God were angry every day, and we were like him, we should be cross, petulant, wrathful, vindictive and hateful all the time. But we can only be like God as we "put off anger" (Col. iii:8) and "put away all wrath, anger and malice," (Eph. iv:31) inasmuch as "a fool's wrath is presently known," (Prov. xii:16) while "he that is slow to wrath is of great understanding." (Prov. xivv:28)
"God is not angry with the wicked every day," is the correct reading of this passage, and it must be true of him who is Love, and who is unchangeable, that he never was, never is, and never will be--for he never can be--angry with any human being in any other sense than that his righteous indignation burns towards those traits that cause his children to sin, and that it will continue to burn until it destroys those traits, and transforms his enemies into friends. "The man who destroyed his enemies" transformed them to friends. God's anger will destroy the enmity of his enemies. He will always be kind to the unthankful and evil. He "is not angry with the wicked every day."
this doesn't jive with what scriptures say about those who refuse to believe.....please explain why your views are correct and the scriptures are wrong....
this doesn't jive with what scriptures say about those who refuse to believe.....please explain why your views are correct and the scriptures are wrong....
Sorry, but my views are based in scripture....
PostmodernProphet
07-06-2009, 07:38 PM
Sorry, but my views are based in scripture....
clarify for me....are you saying..
1) in the end every person will believe in Christ, and therefore will be saved; or
2) in the end God will save every person even if they don't believe in Christ.....
the first I would say is overly optimistic and certainly isn't based on anything stated in scripture....
the second is openly contradicted by scripture....
hence the confusion....
clarify for me....are you saying..
1) in the end every person will believe in Christ, and therefore will be saved; or
2) in the end God will save every person even if they don't believe in Christ.....
the first I would say is overly optimistic and certainly isn't based on anything stated in scripture....
the second is openly contradicted by scripture....
hence the confusion....
Please show me where and how #2 is contradicted by scripture?
I don't think this ranks as semantics, but did you notice how you had to change the verb in your statement from that which appears in scripture.....
Paul wrote "every knee SHOULD bow", CP wrote "every knee WILL bow".....
The WILL ALL Bow and Confess:
He who created all things will "reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross" (Colossians 1:20).
A friend of mine emailed this to me - it explains it very well:
How Many Is Whosover?
John Gavazzoni
Very recently I received the following suggestion from a brother in Christ as part of a brief e-mail conversation we were having:
"John, in my sharing of the gospel of peace with ET Christians I find the toughest stumbling blocks for their spirit to take over the flesh belief is John 3:16,and Rom 10 :9 It always comes back to those two scriptures when they get alone with themselves. If the spirit ever leads you, maybe you could write an article on these 2 scriptures." (Editorial note: by "ET Christians," he means those who believe the doctrine of eternal torment.)
And so, it seemed good to me and the Holy Spirit to do so, so I submit the following exposition of the so-called golden verse of the Bible, John 3:16, to confirm the conviction of those who already have some understanding concerning the unqualified inclusivity of the saving grace of God in Christ , and to, hopefully, enlighten those in whose minds there still exists that vein of darkness and unbelief that seeks to limit what God has and will accomplish in His Son:
The most elementary rule of exegesis (critical explanation or interpretation, especially of scripture) is that any statement, verse, passage or even larger segment, must be interpreted in its context. Every student of scripture gives lip service to this rule, but in practice it is so very often ignored and/or violated with incredible impunity.
In the case of the scripture verse in question, most Christians utterly ignore the tonic chord that ties that gospel together, the clearly pervasive spirit of John's record, and the primary note sounded throughout its pages, thus opening themselves up to interpreting Jesus' statement discordantly.
Though many of the same Christians are aware of verses where this note is sounded, they fail to make the necessary connections that will allow scripture to explain scripture. Specifically, without taking into consideration the general backdrop of the whole book, it is conventionally presumed that by saying, "whosoever," Jesus was limiting the number of those who would believe in Him, who would not perish, and who would have everlasting life. If they were to read and interpret in context, they would find, not limitation in His words, but underlined and emphasized inclusivity.
For example, if I, as the mayor of a city, knowing that every citizen of that city were certain to claim a local tax refund once it was announced and understood by each one, I might assure them up front, that whosoever applies for the refund will in fact receive it. (Keep in mind now that in my analogy I know for a fact that everyone will end up disposed to accepting what is being proffered to them.)
In that case, "whosoever" would underline and emphasize that none will be excluded when they come forward (no pun intended). "Whosoever" gives force to the fact that the refund is for everyone. The intended effect would be to discourage anyone from thinking that, for any reason, they might be disqualified from receiving the refund.
Does my analogy fit John's gospel. It most certainly does! How emphatic Jesus is as recorded in the 12 chapter, vs 32; "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John adds his editorial note in the next verse, explaining that by "lifted up," Jesus was speaking of the manner of His death. The only condition for being drawn to Christ is that Christ be lifted up from the earth in crucifixion.
Come on now, yield to the force and clarity of the words of Jesus. His being lifted up from the earth on the cross would have the drawing power to, and in fact would, bring all men to Himself. Some reading this know that the Greek word translated "draw" in the KJV has the force of "drag."
In the progression of this gospel record, right up front, assurance is given that there will be none of those so drawn who will be disqualified. Among the all drawn, it does not matter, the down-and-out sinner or the Pharisee, the Torah-illiterate or the scribe, the religiously disenfranchised or the Sadducee, Jew or Gentile, WHOSOEVER, WHOSOEVER, WHOSOEVER, GLORY TO GOD, shall not perish but have everlasting life.
The Lord Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the Way to the Father (Jn.14:6) and said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws that one (Jn. 6:44), and I have already shown that all will be so drawn (Jn. 12:32), and, oh blessed promise in Jn. 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." One literal translation of "no wise cast out', renders it as, "under no circumstances be casting out." Another literal rendering has it, "never, no never, no never cast out." There is no need to prove, but only point out that "come to me" is a metaphor for believing in Christ.
Make the connections, you students of scripture. Let scripture explain scripture. What we have in this gospel, beginning in the prologue, is the eternal Word, the Son of God, the Christ, becoming flesh and dwelling among us, In Him was life and the life was the light of men. This light, according to verse 9, of the 1st chapter, "was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." He "lighteth every man." That's an ongoing enlightening. That's why the Concordant version translates it as "which is enlightening every man---coming into the world."
This Christ/Word is the light of the world. He IS the light of the world. If He does not end up enlightening the whole world, then He is not the light of the world. He is---also according to this same gospel---"The Lamb that taketh away the sin of the world." (1:29) If He doesn't take away the world's sin, then He is not the Lamb that taketh away the sin of the world. He "taketh away;" that's ongoing. That's why the Concordant version has it as, "...which is taking away the sin of the world." That's what He's doing, and that's what He will fully do.
I can imagine about this time that if some reader is is finding his mind being troubled by the Spirit of Truth, that, because of a blatantly erroneous pre-supposition, he or she is trying to figure out how Christ will save everyone since obviously millions die without ever having come to Christ. They are betwixt and between because they have bought into the lie that God's salvific overtures to men cease at the point of their physical death.
Hey, hey----wake up! Haven't you ever questioned that assumption? Where did that idea come from? It certainly doesn't come from the Bible. Oh, I know, you'll shoot from the hip and quote "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement." Yes, it does say that. It says, after this "the judgement." It doesn't say, "after this eternal roasting in hell." After this the judgement. What is the judgement? The judgement is that "there is no other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we MUST be saved." That's God's judgement. You MUST be saved. Non-negotiable. If you haven't been drawn to Christ on this side of the veil, that's what you'll face on the other side. You'll face the inescapable, that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
You say, "but some people refuse the will of God." Some people TRY to refuse the will of God, and ultimately find that rebellion is the ultimate exercise in futility. The prophet, Isaiah, recorded God's magnificently sovereign pronouncement, "I will do all my good pleasure." Now if you find yourself trying to figure out a way to prove that sending billions of people to suffer endlessly in hell, is God's good pleasure, then, my friend you are in the grip of a demonic delusion.
Don't go running to hide in the opinion of your pastor whose allegiance is divided between the truth and man's tradition, or some evangelist who has more testosterone than brains, or some prophet who knows not of what spirit he is. If they deny the universality of the redemption that is in Jesus Christ, they are WRONG, plain and simple, WRONG .
I have nothing of which to boast for I was wrong for years until that blessed day when the Spirit of Truth confronted me with the terrible mixture of gospel and superstition I'd been preaching. I came to a place of repentance by the grace of God, and that repentance included believing in the light as greater than the darkness, where before, I believed that the darkness would eternally overcome the light in the lives of billions for all eternity.
I don't think it is necessary for me to address Rom:10:9, because the same principles that apply to John 3:16, apply to the Romans passage. God's faithfulness will prevail over man's unbelief and all men, each in their own order, shall know and believe that Christ bore our sins in His own body on the tree. It is not that He will bear our sins if we believe; it is that He has borne our sins, and the force of that truth shall bring us to faith.
Even more:
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PostmodernProphet
07-06-2009, 10:22 PM
Please show me where and how #2 is contradicted by scripture?
I did once already....
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
how on earth can you interpret that to NOT contradict
2) in the end God will save every person even if they don't believe in Christ.....
Mr. P
07-06-2009, 10:32 PM
Who will win this debate, the Catholic or the Thumper?
I'm betting on the Catholic.
:popcorn:
I did once already....
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
how on earth can you interpret that to NOT contradict
because I believe it's your assumption that not everyone will eventually believe on him...
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 05:43 AM
because I believe it's your assumption that not everyone will eventually believe on him...
/boggle.....that is why I asked you for clarification when I asked you if you were asserting
1) in the end every person will believe in Christ, and therefore will be saved; or
2) in the end God will save every person even if they don't believe in Christ.....
and your responded with a question about 2) I assumed that was your answer......now you say 1)......you leave me confused.....are you abandoning 2)?......
if 1) is your answer there is nothing to argue, because it IS an assumption.....I think it is a highly likely assumption.....I know people now who say they want nothing to do with God and would rather be in hell than heaven......but they may change their mind and I pray they do.....but it is still only an assumption.....
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 05:45 AM
Who will win this debate, the Catholic or the Thumper?
I'm betting on the Catholic.
:popcorn:
I was rather hoping that I would....I'm not a thumper and I'm not a Catholic.....I am a protestant, and an extremely non-liturgical protestant at that.....I'm afraid I wouldn't last very long with all those kneelings and Latin mumblings and heirarchical gatherings and pointy hats.....I favor what is currently described as the emerging church.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church
chesswarsnow
07-07-2009, 07:29 AM
Sorry bout that,
I was rather hoping that I would....I'm not a thumper and I'm not a Catholic.....I am a protestant, and an extremely non-liturgical protestant at that.....I'm afraid I wouldn't last very long with all those kneelings and Latin mumblings and heirarchical gatherings and pointy hats.....I favor what is currently described as the emerging church.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church
CWN~Catholic
1. Its in english these days.
2. You would fit in well PMP.
3. Come and see, your welcome to come check it out.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Mr. P
07-07-2009, 07:56 AM
I was rather hoping that I would....I'm not a thumper and I'm not a Catholic.....I am a protestant, and an extremely non-liturgical protestant at that.....I'm afraid I wouldn't last very long with all those kneelings and Latin mumblings and heirarchical gatherings and pointy hats.....I favor what is currently described as the emerging church.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church
Sorry I thought you were Catholic. I'm betting on the protestant.
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 09:01 AM
Sorry bout that,
CWN~Catholic
1. Its in english these days.
2. You would fit in well PMP.
3. Come and see, your welcome to come check it out.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
I don't know CW....I'm apt to get in an argument with some priest and say "who died and made you pope?"........
I don't think this ranks as semantics, but did you notice how you had to change the verb in your statement from that which appears in scripture.....
Paul wrote "every knee SHOULD bow", CP wrote "every knee WILL bow".....
I didn't change it:
From the New American Standard:
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Perhaps you'll believe the scriptures:
"Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam ALL died, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)
"Love NEVER fails." (1 Cor. 13:8) (God IS Love)
In Jesus Christ is "the restoration of ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21)
"God was Christ reconciling THE WORLD to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: be reconciled to God." (2 Cor. 5:19, 20)
"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation." (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)
1 Timothy 4:10
(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and especially of those who believe.
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek, helkuo) ALL MANKIND unto Myself." (John 12:32)
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
To our natural minds, it is simply impossible that Christ's death could bring salvation to the whole world, even as it seemed impossible to Mary that she should bear the Son of God, since she knew no man. "And you yourselves, who were strangers to God, and, in fact, through the evil things you had done, his spiritual enemies, he has now reconciled" (Col. 1:21, Phillips).
“For God sent not his son into the world to CONDEMN the world, but that the world through him might be saved." Jn 3:17. The sending of the “WORD” into the world had nothing to do with condemnation but to giving life to all mankind.
My privilege is to declare that Jesus Christ is "the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." (1 John 2:2) He was sent for one purpose and that is to be the Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:4)
Romans 14:11
11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.'
Philippians 2:9-11
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
"ALL the nations of the earth shall be blessed." (Gen. 18:18)
"ALL the families of the earth shall be blessed." (Gen. 12:3, 28:14)
Of those who crucified Him (which is all of us) Jesus asked: "Father forgive them; for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34) Did the Father forgive us all?
"In this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And he shall destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over ALL nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces." (Isaiah 25:6-8)
"The Lord will NOT cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His
mercies." (Lam. 3:31, 32)
"Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. ALL the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you." (Psalm 66:3, 4)
"0 You Who hear prayer, to you ALL flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them." (Psalm 65:2-4)
"The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to ALL, and His tender mercies are over ALL His works. ALL your works shall praise you, 0 Lord." (Psalm 145:8-10)
God "reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him." (Isaiah 65:1)
The Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." (Isaiah 52:10)
God's Spirit "will be poured out on ALL FLESH." (Joel 2:28)
"ALL nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him" (Psalm 86:9)
"ALL nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested." (Rev. 15:4)
"ALL Israel will be saved." (Rom. 11:26)
"The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN." (Titus 2:11)
"ALL shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them." (Heb. 8:11)
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 03:26 PM
Perhaps you'll believe the scriptures:
I do, especially John 3:18....which you are working very hard to avoid responding to.....that one verse contradicts everything you have argued, yet you won't address it.....that in itself assures me that I am right....
I do, especially John 3:18....which you are working very hard to avoid responding to.....that one verse contradicts everything you have argued, yet you won't address it.....that in itself assures me that I am right....
I'm pretty sure that the ENTIRE list of scriptures I just posted do more than enough to address John 3:18...
I haven't avoided at all the way you're distorting John 3:18 to say something that it's not..
That passage says nothing about the eternal destination of those whom believe or don't believe...
John 3:18 (New American Standard Bible)
18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
According to the Bible, - it states that when SOMEONE CONFESSES that "Jesus is Lord," – that they will be SAVED?
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is
with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."(Rom. 1:9-10)
And also:
Peter saying "and it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Act 2:21).
The jailor said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." - (Act 16:27-31).
Furthermore. the Bible also states - that – 'EVERYONE' will confess that "Jesus is Lord"
"As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God" - (Rom. 14:11)
"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." - (Phil. 2:11)
…Again…..HOW MANY PEOPLE will call on the name of the Lord?
"Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord , "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out
my wrath on them- all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all
of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder." - (Zeph 3:8-9)
The whole earth will acknowledge the LORD and return to him.
People from every nation will bow down before him.
For the LORD is king! He rules all the nations. (Psalm 22:27-28)
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 05:36 PM
I'm pretty sure that the ENTIRE list of scriptures I just posted do more than enough to address John 3:18...
except that the clear meaning of John 3:18 contradicts all the twisted interpretation you had to meander through.......dude, the Bible says, if you don't believe in Christ you aren't going to get saved.....you need to stop messing with the Bible.....if some poor sucker believes you he's going to end up in hell for eternity because of you....
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 05:57 PM
how do you reconcile your position with the following passage from Mark 6
4Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
a lack of faith interfered with Christ's ability to heal.....
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 05:58 PM
Furthermore. the Bible also states - that – 'EVERYONE' will confess that "Jesus is Lord"
again....if you are simply arguing that everyone WILL believe in Christ I can't argue it.....but if you are arguing that those who refuse to believe in Christ will be saved you are abusing scripture.....
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 06:01 PM
I haven't avoided at all the way you're distorting John 3:18 to say something that it's not..
That passage says nothing about the eternal destination of those whom believe or don't believe...
???....if it isn't talking about the eternal destination of those who believe, then what on earth is it talking about.....if you reject John 3:18, how can you believe John 3:16?....it's in the same paragraph......
does the verse say "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him(and everyone else standing in close proximity) shall not perish but have eternal life"?
do the words "eternal life" in that verse tell you that maybe, just maybe, it really IS talking about eternal destinations?....
???....if it isn't talking about the eternal destination of those who believe, then what on earth is it talking about.....if you reject John 3:18, how can you believe John 3:16?....it's in the same paragraph......
does the verse say "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him(and everyone else standing in close proximity) shall not perish but have eternal life"?
do the words "eternal life" in that verse tell you that maybe, just maybe, it really IS talking about eternal destinations?....
Can you please tell me what you think those who don't believe are condemned to?
chesswarsnow
07-07-2009, 09:48 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. From what I gather, people need to make a choice now, while they are alive.
2. If they procrastinate, and fail to do so some time before they die, its to late.
3. But some scriptures alude to praying for loved ones after they have died.
4. Which would tend to lean towards saving some from eternal punishment in hell, after they are already there, pulling them from he flames, why pray for them if they're not in some terrible place?
5. Wether or not, all people will have a chance, to stake a claim to Jesus Christ, on judgement day, I can not say for sure, and wouldn't teach such.
6. Because if I were wrong, I could be held responcible for those who were led astray.
7. And I don't know of any mainstream religion teaching such.
8. If I were cp, I would be very careful.
9. Just some free advice.
10. I can see how he's adding all this up, and working to get to what he's saying though, but I am not convinced, at all.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. From what I gather, people need to make a choice now, while they are alive.
2. If they procrastinate, and fail to do so some time before they die, its to late.
3. But some scriptures alude to praying for loved ones after they have died.
4. Which would tend to lean towards saving some from eternal punishment in hell, after they are already there, pulling them from he flames, why pray for them if they're not in some terrible place?
5. Wether or not, all people will have a chance, to stake a claim to Jesus Christ, on judgement day, I can not say for sure, and wouldn't teach such.
6. Because if I were wrong, I could be held responcible for those who were led astray.
7. And I don't know of any mainstream religion teaching such.
8. If I were cp, I would be very careful.
9. Just some free advice.
10. I can see how he's adding all this up, and working to get to what he's saying though, but I am not convinced, at all.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry about that,
1. Please show me - in scripture - of this "place" called hell for that's for eternal punishment.
2. Please show me - in scripture - why folks MUST make the choice while physically alive.
3. Appreciate the advice.. :)
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 10:11 PM
Can you please tell me what you think those who don't believe are condemned to?
I think we need to finish this discussion first.....
PostmodernProphet
07-07-2009, 10:13 PM
2. Please show me - in scripture - why folks MUST make the choice while physically alive.
this is really starting to annoy me.....so are we adding a third option now?........a) everyone will choose Christ, b) everyone goes to heaven even if they don't choose Christ, and c) people get to make their choices after death.......
when you figure out what you believe and want to debate in support of it, let me know.....
Mr. P
07-07-2009, 10:17 PM
this is really starting to annoy me.....so are we adding a third option now?........a) everyone will choose Christ, b) everyone goes to heaven even if they don't choose Christ, and c) people get to make their choices after death.......
when you figure out what you believe and want to debate in support of it, let me know.....
TKO!
:popcorn:
chesswarsnow
07-07-2009, 10:28 PM
Sorry bout that,
Sorry about that,
1. Please show me - in scripture - of this "place" called hell for that's for eternal punishment.Already did, Jesus' own words, you know, where the flame dieth not, neither worn, ghashing of teeth etc.
2. Please show me - in scripture - why folks MUST make the choice while physically alive.Why else would it be nessary to pray for those already dead, if indeed it didn't matter?
3. Appreciate the advice.. :)Thought I would try to help you, don't mention it.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
this is really starting to annoy me.....so are we adding a third option now?........a) everyone will choose Christ, b) everyone goes to heaven even if they don't choose Christ, and c) people get to make their choices after death.......
when you figure out what you believe and want to debate in support of it, let me know.....
I've been clear all along - it's not my fault you can't pay attention...
I've said - and supported via a TON of scripture (not just one like you have) that God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost"..
You should REALLY check into Exegesis and Biblical Hermeneutics...
Mr. P
07-07-2009, 10:44 PM
I've been clear all along - it's not my fault you can't pay attention...
I've said - and supported via a TON of scripture (not just one like you have) that God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost"..
You should REALLY check into Exegesis and Biblical Hermeneutics...
So, if God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost"..What's the point in faith or even a religion?
Sorry bout that,
Thought I would try to help you, don't mention it.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry about that,
1. Christ was describing Gehenna... the trash-dump outside of Jeruselem
2. Gehenna - The name is derived from a geographical site in Jerusalem known as the Valley of Hinnom, one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City. In Jewish tradition this valley was associated with the idea of Hell. The reasons for this association are uncertain. Some believe that it relates to the role of the valley in the disposing and burning of rubbish and unclean animals.
So, if God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost"..What's the point in faith or even a religion?
I've never claimed there IS a reason to have a religion - in fact, Christ spoke out the harshest against the religious of his day..
We have faith in God and commune w/ him because he's our creator and we do it out of love.
Your question could be easily liken to "What's the point of a wife loving her husband?"
1. Would it be because if she leaves him, he'll beat her?
2. No, they made vow - there's unity and love
3. The same way, we too can have a relationship with our Father
Holding a gun to someone's head and saying "love me or else" is not love.. The bible says that God IS LOVE - and LOVE NEVER Fails...
Mr. P
07-07-2009, 11:02 PM
I've never claimed there IS a reason to have a religion - in fact, Christ spoke out the harshest against the religious of his day..
We have faith in God and commune w/ him because he's our creator and we do it out of love.
Your question could be easily liken to "What's the point of a wife loving her husband?"
1. Would it be because if she leaves him, he'll beat her?
2. No, they made vow - there's unity and love
3. The same way, we too can have a relationship with our Father
Holding a gun to someone's head and saying "love me or else" is not love.. The bible says that God IS LOVE - and LOVE NEVER Fails...
You didn't answer my question, CP.
So, if God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost" (your quote)..What's the point in faith or even a religion?
You didn't answer my question, CP.
So, if God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost" (your quote)..What's the point in faith or even a religion?
IS IT REALLY SO FRIGGIN HARD FOR PPL TO READ!??!?
I DID answer you... check out www.hop.com
Mr. P
07-07-2009, 11:13 PM
IS IT REALLY SO FRIGGIN HARD FOR PPL TO READ!??!?
I DID answer you... check out www.hop.com
NO YOU DIDN'T ANSWER!!! You said you never said that...blah blah..Which I never said you did, try an answer to a direct question...K?
Again you said: ...
God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost"..
I'll ask it again...
So, if God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost"..What's the point in faith or even a religion?
NO YOU DIDN'T ANSWER!!! You said you never said that...blah blah..Which I never said you did, try an answer to a direct question...K?
Again you said: ...
I'll ask it again...
So, if God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost"..What's the point in faith or even a religion?
May wanna scroll up:
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=373956&postcount=63
NO YOU DIDN'T ANSWER!!! You said you never said that...blah blah..Which I never said you did, try an answer to a direct question...K?
Again you said: ...
I'll ask it again...
So, if God WILL reconcile ALL men to himself - even those you call "lost"..What's the point in faith or even a religion?
Also - this video will prolly explain it better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtXWrIP3K6Y&feature=channel_page
Mr. P
07-07-2009, 11:33 PM
Yer hopeless.
PostmodernProphet
07-08-2009, 05:04 AM
You should REALLY check into Exegesis and Biblical Hermeneutics...
I enjoy studying....over a ten year period, going part time, I completed a Masters in Theology.....I am familiar with the terms.....
PostmodernProphet
07-08-2009, 05:08 AM
What's the point in faith or even a religion?
there would certainly be no point in faith....in truth, you could despise God and still enjoy the same eternity as those who love him......Satan himself will be traipsing around heaven with you.....
chesswarsnow
07-08-2009, 07:54 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. If in fact everyone gets saved, then there would be no justice, and God is just, if he forgave everyone, that would make everyone equal, and he would be unjust.
2. Mass murderers, even those arabs who flew airplanes into buildings on 911, "thats ok", God says, not!
3. History is full of hell bound people, but cp from where ever says, "no, not going to happen".
4. I think I will listen to Jesus, instead, I think he knows better.
5. Hetherns, always want an easy out, sorry but heavens gates are closed, unless you seek Jesus first.
6. CP you do indeed believe in Jesus correct?
7. If not you have an amazing amount of useless information rolling around in your head.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. If in fact everyone gets saved, then there would be no justice, and God is just, if he forgave everyone, that would make everyone equal, and he would be unjust.
2. Mass murderers, even those arabs who flew airplanes into buildings on 911, "thats ok", God says, not!
3. History is full of hell bound people, but cp from where ever says, "no, not going to happen".
4. I think I will listen to Jesus, instead, I think he knows better.
5. Hetherns, always want an easy out, sorry but heavens gates are closed, unless you seek Jesus first.
6. CP you do indeed believe in Jesus correct?
7. If not you have an amazing amount of useless information rolling around in your head.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
1. I never said there's not any sort of punishment for sins - in fact there is - it's just not some sort of eternal torment - THAT would be unjust - infinite punishment for a finite crime would make things horribly unjust.
2. Those sins you outlined in point 2 are no worse of a sin to God than any other.
3. Romans 5:20 says "Where sin abounds, Grace abounds even more".
4. I try my best to!
5. Most heathens I know want nothing to do w/ the Jesus that's too commonly portrayed by so-called "Christians" - when they finally see (meet) HIM face to face, the Bible does tell us that they will bow and confess he is Lord.
6. Of course I do!
I enjoy studying....over a ten year period, going part time, I completed a Masters in Theology.....I am familiar with the terms.....
Great, then you know we don't build entire doctrines over one verse....
PostmodernProphet
07-08-2009, 03:07 PM
Great, then you know we don't build entire doctrines over one verse....
agreed.....amazingly though, it appears you can still disprove an entire doctrine with one verse.....a verse which you haven't bothered to counter yet, by the way, please see my unanswered posts above to get caught up.....
be that as it may, it isn't only one verse, it's the entire essence of the gospel message.....salvation requires a belief in Christ as savior.....
agreed.....amazingly though, it appears you can still disprove an entire doctrine with one verse.....a verse which you haven't bothered to counter yet, by the way, please see my unanswered posts above to get caught up.....
be that as it may, it isn't only one verse, it's the entire essence of the gospel message.....salvation requires a belief in Christ as savior.....
And everyone will believe when they stand before him, right?
According to the Bible, - it states that when SOMEONE CONFESSES that "Jesus is Lord," – that they will be SAVED?
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is
with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."(Rom. 1:9-10)
And also:
Peter saying "and it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Act 2:21).
The jailor said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." - (Act 16:27-31).
Furthermore. the Bible also states - that – 'EVERYONE' will confess that "Jesus is Lord"
"As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God" - (Rom. 14:11)
"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." - (Phil. 2:11)
…Again…..HOW MANY PEOPLE will call on the name of the Lord?
"Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord , "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out
my wrath on them- all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all
of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder." - (Zeph 3:8-9)
The whole earth will acknowledge the LORD and return to him.
People from every nation will bow down before him.
For the LORD is king! He rules all the nations. (Psalm 22:27-28)
PostmodernProphet
07-08-2009, 05:51 PM
okay, so we're back to everyone believes.......fine.....just so long as you give up on the claim that those who don't believe will be saved.....
okay, so we're back to everyone believes.......fine.....just so long as you give up on the claim that those who don't believe will be saved.....
All I've ever tried to say is the following:
1. that God will ultimately God will reconcile ALL of his creation back to himself.
2. there is no such a place of eternal torment ("hell" )
chesswarsnow
07-08-2009, 08:17 PM
Sorry bout that,
All I've ever tried to say is the following:
1. that God will ultimately God will reconcile ALL of his creation back to himself.
2. there is no such a place of eternal torment ("hell" )
1. But I can not agree.
2. This looks so much like John Lennons song.
3. I can't imagine.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. But I can not agree.
2. This looks so much like John Lennons song.
3. I can't imagine.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. of course ya can't - like too many Christians you accept what's been shoved down our throats for the past few hundred years.
PostmodernProphet
07-09-2009, 05:26 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. of course ya can't - like too many Christians you accept what's been shoved down our throats for the past few hundred years.
well I guess we are learning....we are certainly less inclined to accept what you're been trying to shove down our throats for the last couple of days.....
actsnoblemartin
07-09-2009, 07:48 AM
didnt y'all get the memo :coffee:
I am the only one that is saved
chesswarsnow
07-09-2009, 08:32 AM
Sorry bout that,
Sorry bout that,
1. of course ya can't - like too many Christians you accept what's been shoved down our throats for the past few hundred years.
1. Problem is your idea would lead to destruction.
2. Destruction of everything good.
3. Why be good, if there's no reason to be?
4. We would be all an unruly people.
5. Sedition would prosper.
6. Along with every other sin.
7. It would be hell on earth.
8. Sodom and Gamorah Global.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. Problem is your idea would lead to destruction.
2. Destruction of everything good.
3. Why be good, if there's no reason to be?
4. We would be all an unruly people.
5. Sedition would prosper.
6. Along with every other sin.
7. It would be hell on earth.
8. Sodom and Gamorah Global.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. It's not MY idea - it's in the Bible
2. It's a path that leads to God being the victor that he is!
3. "All did go out of the way, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one." - Romans 3:12
4. For "ALL" have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)
5. Our salvation in Christ is not based on our "works" (how good or bad we are).
6. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: - Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
well I guess we are learning....we are certainly less inclined to accept what you're been trying to shove down our throats for the last couple of days.....
It's not my job to convinced you or "shove anything" down your throat... I could give a rat's ass if you believe this or not... I've merely been presenting Biblical evidence for God's plan of restoration..
actsnoblemartin
07-09-2009, 03:49 PM
I love my christian friends, its just hard to know ill be going to hell because im not a christian :(--
I love my christian friends, its just hard to know ill be going to hell because im not a christian :(--
Really? I'd love to visit Hell someday - it's looking really pretty there now:
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellPhotos/hinnon8.JPG.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Jerusalem_528/Jerusalem-11942.jpg
chesswarsnow
07-09-2009, 06:51 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Oh yeah, I was there in 1993.
2. But your mistaken it was used as a place to describe hell.
3. Its always been a wonderful place.
4. Jews are Christians olders brothers, I think they are already placed as *Gods Chosen Peoples*.
5. I don't think you need to worry much Martin.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. Oh yeah, I was there in 1993.
2. But your mistaken it was used as a place to describe hell.
3. Its always been a wonderful place.
4. Jews are Christians olders brothers, I think they are already placed as *Gods Chosen Peoples*.
5. I don't think you need to worry much Martin.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. You're wrong - there's nowhere in the Bible that tells of an actual place called hell where people will be tormented forever.
chesswarsnow
07-09-2009, 08:29 PM
Sorry boutt that,
1. Oh boy, you don't get around much then.
2. Try to explain all this.
3. Oh boy, this is going to leave a Mark,..hehehehe,.....:laugh2:
Mat. 25:46
"And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Rev.20:14-15
"20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire."
Mat. 25:41
"25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! "
In Rev: 20 check it out.
20:11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened – the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. 21:8 But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.”
Ever favorite, Mat:13:50
"13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
Mark 9:48 I brought this up too.
"9:48 where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched. "
Rev. 14:10
"14:10 that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb"
Rev 11:14
"14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
4. I could go on and on, but the time doesn't avail me.
5. Aslo check out, Luke 16:23, fine example of what hell is.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
chesswarsnow
07-09-2009, 09:08 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Hey CP, I know this is like a ton of bricks falling on you old chap, but you did ask for it!:laugh2:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry boutt that,
1. Oh boy, you don't get around much then.
2. Try to explain all this.
3. Oh boy, this is going to leave a Mark,..hehehehe,.....:laugh2:
Mat. 25:46
"And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mat. 25:41
"25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! "
Classic misinterpretation there of the word "eternal" which the NIV and KJV have done...
I think some of the issues we have here is the interpretation of that wonderful parable of the Sheep and the Goats are the following:
- First, it’s important to note that the Sheep and the Goats were merely separated here by their works – not if they were “Saved” or not – and we know that “we are not saved by works, lest any man should boast”. So it’s clear to me that what Christ is talking about here is a reward/punishment scenario for our works. Everything here was based on what they had DONE or NOT DONE…
- Secondly, Christ is speaking to the Nations here and not individuals.
- “Everlasting Fire” – the greek word used here is AIÓN – AIÓNIOS – which when properly translated means age-lasting or for a period of time.
- Additionally, the word “punishment” – the greek root here is Kolazo which, according to Strong’s Concordance means to simply “curtail” or “chastise”.
Correctly translated – this passage should read:
“.. Depart from Me, you cursed ones, into that aionian fire.. And these shall go away into a cutting-off age lasting.”
The Bible in modern English by Farrar Fenton reads, “These shall go away into age-abiding correction”.
Young’s literal translation says “And these shall go away to punishment age-during”.
(you can read the Young’s translation here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&version=15)
Rev.20:14-15
"20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire."
Rev. 14:10
"14:10 that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb"
Rev 11:14
"14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
In Rev: 20 check it out.
20:11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened – the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. 21:8 But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.”
Again - a classic example how so many Christians all say that John’s visions were written metaphorically yet somehow they take the term “Lake of Fire” to be a literal place – the truth is, God is the lake of fire for the purification of those whom he loves and wants to restore.
That is the “Second death” – they die to themselves and God purifies them.
LAKE OF FIRE:
Ya know – it’s odd to me, actually, how so many Christians all say that John’s visions were written metaphorically yet somehow they take the term “Lake of Fire” to be a literal place – the truth is, God is the lake of fire for the purification of those whom he loves and wants to restore.
That is the “Second death” – they die to themselves and God purifies them.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
The second resurrection occurs 1000 years after the first.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
A few things to note here:
- Fire is a purifying agent – it burns up stubble and purges the vessel from defilfements
- The second death does not refer to “eternal death” for any human being here
- Biblical references to a “lake of fire” are only found in Revelation – the bible defines this as the “2nd death”
-
Additionally, the words “forever and ever” as used in the passages of Revelation are clearly misinterpreted: - here a few examples of that phrase being misinterpeted in other passages:
Jonah 2:6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you brought my life up from the pit,
O LORD my God.
We obviously know that Jonah was NOT in the belly of the well forever – he was in for 3-days – the Hebrew word here is Olahm – has the same meaning as the Greek word of aionian – means for an indeterminate amount of time that you don’t know the end of until the end comes.
King James Exodus 21:6
6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him forever.
We know that its impossible for someone to be a slave forever – mistranslation.
In Leviticus 16:34 (King James)
34And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
We know that the Old Covenant was replaced by the new Covenant of Christ – according to Paul.
The mountains in Habbukuk: 3:6 are called Everlasting:
6He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered,
We know this Earth will pass away – so again, a mistranslation.
Solomon’s Temple 1 Kings 9:3
3And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there forever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
Clearly, his name won’t be there forever- that temple is long-gone.
Isaiah 34:10 talks about the smoke going on forever:
10 It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
Again – mistranslation – can smoke on this earth last forever?
Mark 9:48 I brought this up too.
"9:48 where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched. "
Once again, Christ was speaking about the earthly place called Gehenna - the trash-dump outside of Jerusalem - which was was constantly plagued with worms. In this more-appropriate translation we see the word "never" properly translated to "not".
From young's Literal translation:
48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:48&version=31
[/quote]
Ever favorite, Mat:13:50
"13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
Yup, going through the purification process won't be too fun - sorta like getting yer ass beat as a kid - by your dad ..
Sorry bout that,
1. Hey CP, I know this is like a ton of bricks falling on you old chap, but you did ask for it!:laugh2:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Not at all bro - I too was raised to believe in the false teachings of eternal torment... all this stuff you guys have been throwing at me? Yeah, I too used the same material.. lol..
chesswarsnow
07-09-2009, 09:49 PM
Sorry bout that,
Not at all bro - I too was raised to believe in the false teachings of eternal torment... all this stuff you guys have been throwing at me? Yeah, I too used the same material.. lol..
1. Are there many *Universalists* like you?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. Are there many *Universalists* like you?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Dunno... lol.. I'm sure there are...
A great resource if you want more information is:
www.tentmaker.org
chesswarsnow
07-10-2009, 08:22 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. Well its a novel idea, and I don't think it will get any real traction.
2. I would guess there isn't more than 40 people who have fallen for this.
3. It does tend to tickle the ears, but in reality, it falls flat on merit.
4. There's way to much details on hell, in order to throw it out.
5. You have to basically ignore major chunks of Gods word.
6. I don't think most people are ready to do that.
7. Those who are I would say, are skating on thin ice with it.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. Well its a novel idea, and I don't think it will get any real traction.
2. I would guess there isn't more than 40 people who have fallen for this.
3. It does tend to tickle the ears, but in reality, it falls flat on merit.
4. There's way to much details on hell, in order to throw it out.
5. You have to basically ignore major chunks of Gods word.
6. I don't think most people are ready to do that.
7. Those who are I would say, are skating on thin ice with it.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. But, wow dude.... quite the contrary - you CLEARLY have to bastardize the scripture and the work on the Cross to think the majority of people ever created will live eternally tormented...
chesswarsnow
07-10-2009, 05:08 PM
Sorry bout that,
Sorry bout that,
1. But, wow dude.... quite the contrary - you CLEARLY have to bastardize the scripture and the work on the Cross to think the majority of people ever created will live eternally tormented...
1. If there is no hell, as you state, why was it ever mentioned then?
2. Wouldn't that make God a liar?
3. Or are you calling God a liar?
4. The Lord Jesus Christ, himself spoke of the place called hell, did he lie as well, while on earth?
5. I don't know man, seems like what is written is more important than what you are off on too.
6. I would have to say, that after people have died, they still have some chance, even though it may be small to find a way into heaven.
7. I could be all wrong about that, but it is a possibility if you ask me.
8. We can go into why I think that as well.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
chesswarsnow
07-10-2009, 07:13 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. CP, even though what you wrote to refute my ton of bricks, didn't even come close to answering my post, with all the scriptures.
2. You continue to prolong the agony of defeat.
3. You lost this one old chum.:laugh2:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. If there is no hell, as you state, why was it ever mentioned then?
2. Wouldn't that make God a liar?
3. Or are you calling God a liar?
4. The Lord Jesus Christ, himself spoke of the place called hell, did he lie as well, while on earth?
5. I don't know man, seems like what is written is more important than what you are off on too.
6. I would have to say, that after people have died, they still have some chance, even though it may be small to find a way into heaven.
7. I could be all wrong about that, but it is a possibility if you ask me.
8. We can go into why I think that as well.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Do you homework- Christ NEVER mentioned ANY "place" called Hell.. I'm sorry.. it's not in there.... He only spoke of Gehenna which IS a Physical place here on Earth..
chesswarsnow
07-10-2009, 09:24 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. I guess we agree to disagree.
2. My Bible has it.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. I guess we agree to disagree.
2. My Bible has it.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Nope.. sorry.. it's not even in "your bible"..
chesswarsnow
07-11-2009, 08:53 AM
Sorry bout that,
Nope.. sorry.. it's not even in "your bible"..
1, I've heard about selective hearing, but never selective reading.
2. I have posted where it reads there is a hell, and you poo-pooed it.
3. I think this is over, PMP bailed out long ago, and he was argueing with a wall as well.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1, I've heard about selective hearing, but never selective reading.
2. I have posted where it reads there is a hell, and you poo-pooed it.
3. I think this is over, PMP bailed out long ago, and he was argueing with a wall as well.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. It's not my fault you don't look up that word "hell" in the greek for the NT and the Hebrew for the OT - one day you should.
chesswarsnow
07-11-2009, 03:35 PM
Sorry bout that,
Sorry bout that,
1. It's not my fault you don't look up that word "hell" in the greek for the NT and the Hebrew for the OT - one day you should.
1. What does this say?
‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! "
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. What does this say?
‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! "
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
SHEEP AND THE GOATS:
I think some of the issues we have here is the interpretation of that wonderful parable of the Sheep and the Goats are the following:
- First, it’s important to note that the Sheep and the Goats were merely separated here by their works – not if they were “Saved” or not – and we know that “we are not saved by works, lest any man should boast”. So it’s clear to me that what Christ is talking about here is a reward/punishment scenario for our works. Everything here was based on what they had DONE or NOT DONE…
- Secondly, Christ is speaking to the Nations here and not individuals.
- “Everlasting Fire” – the greek word used here is AIÓN – AIÓNIOS – which when properly translated means age-lasting or for a period of time.
- Additionally, the word “punishment” – the greek root here is Kolazo which, according to Strong’s Concordance means to simply “curtail” or “chastise”.
Correctly translated – this passage should read:
“.. Depart from Me, you cursed ones, into that aionian fire.. And these shall go away into a cutting-off age lasting.”
The Bible in modern English by Farrar Fenton reads, “These shall go away into age-abiding correction”.
Young’s literal translation says “And these shall go away to punishment age-during”.
(you can read the Young’s translation here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&version=15)
chesswarsnow
07-11-2009, 05:28 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. It says what I've been saying, there is a permanent hell, eternal in fact.
2. No it doesn't have or need to be translated.
3. What it says, it says.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. It says what I've been saying, there is a permanent hell, eternal in fact.
2. No it doesn't have or need to be translated.
3. What it says, it says.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
I suppose if you want to read a misinterpetation that's up to you...
The Bible also says in Psalm that we should kill babies.... .I guess that makes it true for us, eh?
*rolls eyes*...
chesswarsnow
07-11-2009, 07:49 PM
Sorry bout that,
I suppose if you want to read a misinterpetation that's up to you...
The Bible also says in Psalm that we should kill babies.... .I guess that makes it true for us, eh?
*rolls eyes*...
1. But noy everything Biblical needs a re~write.
2. Might as well throw out the whole Bible in order to get a feel good reading.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. But noy everything Biblical needs a re~write.
2. Might as well throw out the whole Bible in order to get a feel good reading.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Only things that need a re-write are the passages that certain versions (NIV, KJV etc) misinterpet.
PostmodernProphet
07-11-2009, 10:51 PM
I suppose if you want to read a misinterpetation that's up to you...
The Bible also says in Psalm that we should kill babies.... .I guess that makes it true for us, eh?
*rolls eyes*...
?????....mygosh, that's an exceptionally ignorant misinterpretation of scriptures......
PostmodernProphet
07-11-2009, 10:56 PM
I've merely been presenting Biblical evidence for God's plan of restoration..
???....hardly.....you've been presenting "evidence" for CP's plan of restoration.....it has nothing to do with God's plan.....
avatar4321
07-12-2009, 12:10 AM
So few people truly understand what Eternal damnation or Eternal punishment really is. I cant say I do. but I know it's not what everyone seems to think it is.
avatar4321
07-12-2009, 12:18 AM
???....hardly.....you've been presenting "evidence" for CP's plan of restoration.....it has nothing to do with God's plan.....
So what is God's plan for Restoration? Does He have one?
chesswarsnow
07-12-2009, 04:01 PM
Sorry bout that,
So what is God's plan for Restoration? Does He have one?
1. Already did that.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
PostmodernProphet
07-12-2009, 09:27 PM
So what is God's plan for Restoration? Does He have one?
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Great.. what's that have to do w/ the price of tea in china?
PostmodernProphet
07-13-2009, 03:52 PM
Great.. what's that have to do w/ the price of tea in china?
???....it was the answer to avatar's question....what's your problem?....
???....it was the answer to avatar's question....what's your problem?....
But, it wasn't an answer.. I don't have a problem... wow.. hostile... lol..
PostmodernProphet
07-13-2009, 04:03 PM
But, it wasn't an answer.. I don't have a problem... wow.. hostile... lol..
???...why isn't it an answer.....I think that passage has been the summation of God's plan of restoration for the last 2000 years or so.....
Kathianne
07-13-2009, 04:09 PM
Reading all of your responses and acclamations. I'm glad I'm "Catholic" I put in quotes because I'm well aware that many Catholic priests are in disagreement with the 'Church'.
While I disagree with the Church regarding birth control, I"m in sync with abortion, euthanasia, etc.
Does the 'Church' control my pov? No., but I will say that it's a pretty good jumping off point.
chesswarsnow
07-14-2009, 05:21 PM
Sorry bout that,
Reading all of your responses and acclamations. I'm glad I'm "Catholic" I put in quotes because I'm well aware that many Catholic priests are in disagreement with the 'Church'.
While I disagree with the Church regarding birth control, I"m in sync with abortion, euthanasia, etc.
Does the 'Church' control my pov? No., but I will say that it's a pretty good jumping off point.
1. So how do feel about the topic at hand?
2. This has been a long thread, covering, much, just a few are, Only some allowed into heaven, is there a hell, etc.
3. What is your position on that?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Obey Obey Obey
07-16-2009, 03:33 PM
An interesting verse on that:
So Christ saves all men, especially those that believe. What is to be meant by that? How can He especially be a Savior to those who believe? How does He save those who dont believe?
I think I can answer that, to a degree at least.
Christ saves all mankind through the resurrection. All men, believer and non-believer will be saved from death regardless of whether we believe in Christ. Because as one man brought death into this world, so one man shall take it away.
Now Salvation from sin, seems conditioned on Repentence. Because Christ came to save us from our sins, not in our sins. And in order to repent we must believe in Christ and His power.
He came to save His sheep(John 10:15) Jesus draws His elect(John 6:44) Jesus does the picking and choosing(John 15:16) Most church goers go to Hell(Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23, Rev 3:15:16) Most believe in the anti-Christ(God loves everybody) and are humanist. Those folks go to hell with fags, adulterers, killers, fearful, ect.
PostmodernProphet
07-16-2009, 06:49 PM
He came to save His sheep(John 10:15) Jesus draws His elect(John 6:44) Jesus does the picking and choosing(John 15:16) Most church goers go to Hell(Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23, Rev 3:15:16) Most believe in the anti-Christ(God loves everybody) and are humanist. Those folks go to hell with fags, adulterers, killers, fearful, ect.
I suspect you are a sockpuppet for one of our more secular members......just haven't got a handle on who yet....nice handle on the stereotype, though....
eighballsidepocket
07-29-2009, 12:20 PM
Double post: Moderator please delete this one.
eighballsidepocket
07-29-2009, 12:22 PM
One's propensity to sin is a result of one's Adamic nature from birth. The human race was given the verdict in the garden.
How does one become released from this Adamic nature?
They must receive a "new" nature, and that "new" nature is Christ's nature/life/Spirit.
"Ye must be born again/born from above" Jesus said to Nicodemus the Pharisee.
The "water" that Jesus said that He would give to the Samaritan woman would end her unquenchable thirst. It was His life.
Do Christians who are free of the Adamic nature they were cursed/born with still sin? YES!
Why? Cause. (Romans Chapter 12), the old programing in our souls is still there, although our proclivity or natures have been released from bondage to sin/only.
How do we purge the "old programming/proclivity"? Romans chapter 12 says, "Renew your minds!".
With what? The "washing" of the Word/scripture. I.E. Christians have a brand new identity, yet still lives as though they are alive to sin and dead to God?
Soul = Mind, will/chooser, and emotions/feeler/feelings
Galatians 2:20 " "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I(The old adamic natured human) who live, but Christ lives in me(New Adamic nature Christian); and the life which I(New Creature) now live in the flesh I(New Creature) live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Paul wrote that verse. Within that verse, is the whole Tamale.
When Paul believed in Jesus as his Saviour and Lord, God took Paul's old Adamic spirit/life/sin-only-proclivity, and placed it into Christ's sinless, God-glorifying life in eternity past, 2,000 years ago, on that cross, that old sinful/Adamic spirit was crucified, buried, and stayed their; buried, dead forever.
The life that rose with Christ on the 3rd day in eternity-past was the new Adamic life in Christ within Paul.
Yet, in Roman's chapter 7, Paul still has this war with the pull of sin, and even calls himself "O wretched man that I am!"
What is this sin-war? It is the Power of sin that is still present and working overtime. Pauls body or flesh is still not redeemed until He gets that new heavenly body after death and the great ressurrection of the Saints has happened. In the meantime, dear old Paul must fight the good fight of resisting the tug/pull of sins temptations that access his mind, and emotions part of his soul, and wreak havoc with "his new nature" in Christ that "desires not to sin".
Having an accurate assessment of one's identity means one will live according to that assessment or accurate live according to the truth of who they really are.
Paul's war was a fight between believing in his old gone- identity, and accepting the truth of having a totally new identity from the former.
Many theologians incorrectly say that we/Christians upon salvation have received a dual nature, and base it on the NIV's poor translation of flesh. For instance, in Romans 8:12, the NIV weakly/incorrectly, translates what is in the Greek, "flesh", and calls it "sinful nature". As you can understand from this, the flesh is our bodily, and a "nature" is one's actually identity/being.
The NASB and KJV refer correctly to the Greek, "flesh" as "flesh".
Please understand that I think that the NIV translation is a very good one, as all translations have their weak areas and stronger areas when communicating God's Word accurately. The NASB and KJV have their areas of weakness.
Unfortunately, theologians/preachers have been pounding into their congregations that they are internally fighting with two natures after salvation; the old Adamic one, and the new, Adamic/Christ's life one. This would imply that every Christian is basically Schizoid or having multiple natures to live with; a most sad, and terrible mental, emotional, and mindful state of being at the least.
Paul correctly said that we are battling a war, but it is not with two natures since salvation, but is with sin's(power of sin) constant pounding at our mind, emotions and will via our "flesh"/"body" that is not redeemed yet. This creates the Romans 7 war that Paul shares with his readers as he struggles with learning to "choose" truth, over lies.
Paul's new nature in Christ is "tortured" by the constant inputs of sin upon his mind that tell him to do anything but "glorify" God in his every-life decisions. Paul even said that the things he wanted to do he wouldn't, and the things he should not do he did. His new nature in Christ was at war against the very power of sin that lavishly lives in our universe for now.
Did Paul say that our lives would be terrible as Christians as a result? No! He went on to explain in Romans and many other epistles he authored that our human wills were now free to choose, despite the endless pounding of temptation. It would not hit us constantly, but if we entertained it, it would certainly get a foot-hold in our souls to raise a storm of discord.
Who is the power behind the Power of Sin? Satan.
Again, when one receives Christ's Spirit/Life they leave behind their old "sinful nature" or Adamic life at the cross. That's the Co-crucifixion of believer and Christ in Galatians 2:20. It's also what we display to the Christian Church/body when we go through water baptism. Being immersed or sprinkled represents being buried with Christ. Being lifted up out of the water represents new ressurrected life in Christ.
Salvation is entering into Christ's eternally past/present/future life, that includes 2,000 years ago, crucifixion, burial, and ressurrection.
When Christ rose from the dead, all people who would/future believe on Him as their Lord and Saviour were released "in Him" from the bondage of their sinful natures.
Now the Christian sins not because of a natural proclivity or sinful nature within, but because of the "flesh" that still allows the entertainment or access to the Christian's soul by sin.
The "flesh" again includes the old programming still in the mind, and emotions of the new believer/Christian. Desire to over do it with booze, pornography, adulterous thoughts........Just read the 10 commandments.........They cover the gamut.
Sure, some things do pass away immediately when one is born again, but for the most part, the old things of the past Adamic life hang on and must be replaced with "correct" programming.
Identity folks, identity! When one becomes a Christian they receive a brand new identity! It is deemed righteous in God's eyes, and what God says is the truth.
Yet this "righteous in God's eyes" creature still does some sinful things? That's the growth process of the Christian life! As we fill our minds with God's truth(Romans 12), we slowly purge the old ways/lies/habits/patterns that were perfectly suited for the old sinful Adamic life.
To sin as a non-Christian is a natural act, expected act. To sin as a Christian is to be anticipated, but to be a less and less-so happening; if that Christian works at filling their mind with God's truths to wash clean the areas of the old Adamic ways/lies of the past.
*******
As to "some being saved"? Some are, and some aren't. The strong Calvinist would say that it is not our choice, as we were elected before time began in God's creative mind. The Calvinist cannot conceive that God's life sees not only what has happened, but also sees what "will" happen, or the future.
God is not time-bound, and already has taken care of the future. He know's when things will happen. This also means that God knows who/persons will genuinely believe in His Son's soul saving work on the cross 2,000 years ago, and who will go to their graves not believing.
The pure Calvinist cannot or will not accept this but see's the elect as an already set group of people.
I often ponder how the Calvinist can have any passion to do as Jesus told the people to do, "Go out into the world and tell them the Good news of Me".
Why bother being a missionary, or an evangelist, or preacher, etc.... All is set and done. Those that are saved are already picked by God, regardless of their God given free wills to chose or reject the "Good News". Something doesn't seem right here.
Why would Paul go out all over Asia Minor establishing churches in the gentile nations, and Peter doing it in the Jewish and many of the apostles in the nation of Israel?
So we have folks who are "modified" Calvinists who give-in a little in the area of choice and election.
On the other side we have the Arminian wing of Christianity that believes that Christians can "lose" their salvation. They base this mostly on N.T. Hebrew verses, but again take things out of context IMO.
Sadly, the church is filled with tons of opinions on salvation, losing it, how you get it, etc... Most if not all these ideas are based more on humanistic desires or wants and reveal a lack of good deductive bible study.
There are mysteries about salvation, of who is and who isn't, but the bible says that God has given every true believer the H.S. to confirm within them that they are His for eternity.
Can true Christians doubt their salvation? Why sure! That is where the Romans chapter 7 war of truth versus flesh element comes in again. The power of sin, and the old pre-salvation programming in our souls wages war against God's truth about our "new identity" in Christ.
In many cases the Christian must re-learn life over again. It is not unlike that "What About Bob" Bill Murray movie, where the psychologist was writing a book called "Baby Steps".
Receiving a new life, or new nature in Christ, and eternal life, is not unlike starting all over. In order to first walk, and then run in that new life, we must start out with "baby steps" of faith that often go against the "past" in our lives. This takes courage, but it is also learning how to live life to the fullest measure.
Many of us have lived lives where decision making was based on how we "felt" about something rather than how we "knew" about something. Feelings-based decision making is most dangerous for any human being. Feelings or emotions are a God-given quality to humanity, but it is there to enhance our life, not to base our daily decisions on.
It's like getting up in the morning and forcing ourselves to take a shower/bath, brush our teeth, feed the animals/kids, spouse, go to work, etc...... Our emotions/feeler may not want to even get out of bed, but we "know" that the truth lies somewhere beyond staying in bed. If we don't get up, things don't get done, and many things may turn out very bad for us or others if we don't.
So goes faith, and decision-making for the Christian. He/she must learn to choose Godly pursuits, and life decisions despite the pull of the flesh, and the feeler/emotions desire to sit on the old couch and be a potatoe.
Do refrain from this cause it does not glorify God, or do I continue cause it feels good, or whatever.
********
I think the bible is very clear on communicating that salvation is a God given choice, given to man, as part of man's free will. God does not want a heaven filled with automatons that were saved regardless of their free wills.
The very definition of "grace" is this unmerited favor of God towards all of us who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God(Romans 3:23). This unmerited favor of God must be answered, "yeah" or "nay". God has laid out the evidences succinctly in the bible. He has given humanity choosers/wills to "ok" or "reject" these evidences in respect to how it relates to themselves.
Yes, all are called, but not all will answler in the affirmative. :(
Side Note: There's been so much bantering about homosexuality, on this religion forum, and one must understand that this is a sinful act and condition. It is no worse nor no less serious than adultery, lieing, stealing, etc... It is sin.
Many folks who are true Christians can have a war with homosexual thoughts, temptations, that are the residual of the old Adamic life they lived before salvation. It may be such a strong pull/temptation that these Christians believe that they are not even saved. In fact the homosexual who becomes saved may battle that temptation to the grave. The important part of this, is that they "battle" and resist, just like the person who has come out of pornography addiction, or alcohal/drug addiction must battle even when they are finally saved.
Sometimes God in His magesty and mysterious wisdom will release a Christian from pas sin tendencies/temptations and they are very free, yet other Christians may battle that old temptation throughout their new life. Why? Only God knows the reason. Maybe God allows some temptations to continue because it keeps pride from erupting in our lives and ruining our lifes's testimony that glorifies Him?
In Job's case, all of His travails of life kept Him very close and clinging to God for strength.
Maybe some of us if we are released from total bondage to sin, would ignore God, and basically rely on our own instincts from the past.
Many Christians will say that "God is my co-pilot.", but actually, God needs to be their pilot, and the Christian needs to take a seat in the passenger compartment. God needs no co-pilots. ;)
:salute:
chesswarsnow
07-29-2009, 02:08 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. I will have to agree with eightball, great post, well said.:clap:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
eighballsidepocket
07-29-2009, 04:13 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. I will have to agree with eightball, great post, well said.:clap:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
It was a long one, but I've not posted here for some time. The religion section on that "other" sister-board is absolutely looney tunes. The religion topic section is overrun with crazy topics:salute:.
By the way, you don't have to be "sorry" about agreeing with 8-ball. ;)
Yes, all are called, but not all will answler in the affirmative. :(
Not true at all:
The bible makes it quite clear that ALL knee's will bow and confess he is Lord
Christ also said "if I be lifted up, I will draw(greek word there is drag) ALL men unto me".
To say some will be lost or that he won't drag all men to himself is saying that he lied...
eighballsidepocket
07-29-2009, 08:23 PM
Not true at all:
The bible makes it quite clear that ALL knee's will bow and confess he is Lord
Christ also said "if I be lifted up, I will draw(greek word there is drag) ALL men unto me".
To say some will be lost or that he won't drag all men to himself is saying that he lied...
Ok, so with that, how do we fit into your paradigm where Jesus proclaims the great commission to all His followers to go out to the ends of the world and proclaim the good news? Seems with your paradigm/take, it would be very unnecessary, wouldn't it?
After all will be "dragged" unto Him?
Ever wonder why Jesus identified some folks as "children of the devil"?
There seems to be in the bible a place for both Satan, the Anti-Christ, and those who take the "wide" road, and not the narrow, difficult road of salvation. It is called hell.
Now, I will say that there are some Christian cults such as Mormonism that don't think anyone will go to hell, but their teaching is abherrent, and so unbiblical, it's pitiful.
J.W.'s also believe that either you get to be part of their 144,000 special Watch Tower folks that get to go to heaven, or you stay on earth, as it will be a paradise; also a very false unbiblical teaching.
All knees will bow to Jesus in the "End Times" that goes for those bound for hell as well as those bound for heaven.
:salute:
Ok, so with that, how do we fit into your paradigm where Jesus proclaims the great commission to all His followers to go out to the ends of the world and proclaim the good news? Seems with your paradigm/take, it would be very unnecessary, wouldn't it?
After all will be "dragged" unto Him?
Ever wonder why Jesus identified some folks as "children of the devil"?
There seems to be in the bible a place for both Satan, the Anti-Christ, and those who take the "wide" road, and not the narrow, difficult road of salvation. It is called hell.
Now, I will say that there are some Christian cults such as Mormonism that don't think anyone will go to hell, but their teaching is abherrent, and so unbiblical, it's pitiful.
J.W.'s also believe that either you get to be part of their 144,000 special Watch Tower folks that get to go to heaven, or you stay on earth, as it will be a paradise; also a very false unbiblical teaching.
All knees will bow to Jesus in the "End Times" that goes for those bound for hell as well as those bound for heaven.
:salute:
The "Good News" is that we no longer need to be slaves to sin in this life because of the work of Christ..
Without the printed Bible around - his followers going around and telling the people was God's way of getting the message out..
Christ also referred to the pharasies as vipers - they obviously weren't literal vipers..
You also didn't answer my question: Was Christ lying when he said "I will draw ALL men unto me"?
PostmodernProphet
07-30-2009, 05:12 AM
You also didn't answer my question: Was Christ lying when he said "I will draw ALL men unto me"?
you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.....
chesswarsnow
07-30-2009, 09:09 AM
Sorry bout that,
Not true at all:
The bible makes it quite clear that ALL knee's will bow and confess he is Lord
Christ also said "if I be lifted up, I will draw(greek word there is drag) ALL men unto me".
1. I have never heard such doctrine.
2. I for one do not agree to it.
3. Kinda throws out all faith if you asked me.
4. Everyones going to be dragged kicking and screaming, who needs faith?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
eighballsidepocket
07-30-2009, 11:08 AM
The "Good News" is that we no longer need to be slaves to sin in this life because of the work of Christ..
Without the printed Bible around - his followers going around and telling the people was God's way of getting the message out..
Christ also referred to the pharasies as vipers - they obviously weren't literal vipers..
You also didn't answer my question: Was Christ lying when he said "I will draw ALL men unto me"?
Here's the "Gotcha!"
Inclusionism/Universalism
******
States that all are saved and they just do not know it. Universalism and Inclusionism are doctrines that are one and the same and they both state that sooner or later all people will be saved. Both of these doctrines state that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God. Those who profess this doctrine state that the people who will be in hell are the people who Jesus did not die for. This is ridiculous because Jesus died for all mankind and that would mean that no one would be in hell. Well children, that is the screwed up philosophy that universalists and inclusionists teach.
Universalism, started in the second century, and it used to teach that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment.
Today, Universalism now teaches that all men are saved, though all do not realize it. They are teaching that the job of the evangelist is to tell people they are already saved. That doesn't really make a lick of sense to me because if man is already saved then why should it matter? Why travel around telling people that they are already saved if they are going to go to heaven anyway? Why not grab all the gusto you can, do whatever you feel like doing, drink as much booze, have as much sex, and smoke all the dope you want, and make life one giant party until you die because according to the doctrines of univeralism inclusionism, you are going to go to heaven no matter what. Heck that means that the monster Muslims who are murdering Christians and Jews are all going to be on the streets of glory! Your neighbors in heaven will include the likes of Osama Bin Laden, Sadam Hussein, John Gacy who murdered 35 young boys and buried them in a crawl space, the Boston Strangler, Old Ed Gein of Texas Chainsaw Massacre fame, Albert Fish who killed little kids and ate them, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold who executed 13 students at Columbine High School even dancing a jig over one of the dead students, Adolf Hitler who murdered six million Jews, Dr. Joeseph Mengele the doctor of death at Auschwitz who performed horrifying experiments on Jews before killing them, Attila The Hun, Nero, Herod, and let's not forget Timothy McVeigh who bombed the Oklahoma City Murrah Building killing 168 people. Witches, Warlocks, Marilyn Manson, Homos, Lesbians, and Satanists will all be dancing on the streets of glory according to this doctrine.
Universalists and Inclusionists use the following scriptures to support their theory that all are saved and everyone is going to be in heaven- John 12:32, Philippians
2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - however it is plain to see that they have taken these verses out of context when one who knows and understands the scriptures can interpret them properly.
These scriptures do not support universalism.
John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).
Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.) Satan himself will have to bow before everyone and say that Jesus is Lord.
First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.
All through the Bible the scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes: the saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers, and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities: heaven or hell.
2 Corinthians 6:14 says that believers and non believers have no fellowship with each other.
In Matthew 13:30 Jesus said, "Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." Here unbelievers and believers are spoken of as tares and wheat. Two separate classes! Universalists will tell you that Jesus spoke this in a parable and that He really didn't mean it when it comes to people. Well then if that is true, since Jesus spoke in parables nearly all through what is recorded in the gospels then that means He really didn't mean anything he said, right? WRONG! If Jesus told one untruth, then that would mean we can’t take anything literal that He says. Well let me tell you something friend, Jesus never told one lie at all because to lie would be a sin and Jesus was incapable of sin and that is why He was able to go to the cross and be the ultimate sacrifice for sin offering his body as ransom for our sins! Jesus is the truth as Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." If Muslims who believe in the false god of Allah, or Buddhists who believe in the false god of Buddha can get into heaven that would mean that they attained heaven through Buddha and Allah and not through Jesus, which would make what Jesus said a lie. If there is one lie in the Bible then how could we believe anything else that is written in the scriptures? The facts are there is no lies in the Bible and Jesus spoke the truth.
In Matthew 13:49 Jesus said, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous." Again, two classes are mentioned - unbelievers and believers spoken of as the wicked and the righteous. In Matthew 25:32 Jesus said that following His second coming, "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Here believers and unbelievers are set apart by the terms "sheep" and "goats." The sheep will enter into God's kingdom (vs. 34) and inherit eternal life (vs. 46). The goats go into eternal punishment (vs. 46).
In Luke 16:26 we find Abraham in the afterlife telling the unsaved rich man: "Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Hades apparently had two compartments: "paradise" for the saved, and "torments" for the unsaved - and these compartments were separated by a great chasm or gulf. Clearly, then, the Scriptures speak of two classes of people (the saved and the unsaved) and two destinies (heaven for the saved; hell for the unsaved). Each and every person who ever lived or is alive today, or that ever will be created will end up in one of these places based upon whether or not he or she has accepted Christ as their Lord, Master, and Savior during his or her time on earth (Acts 16:31).
You either go to hell or go to heaven when you die. There is no in between. There is no Purgatory where you go to get a second chance to start all over again if you were bad while living on earth. There is no "Allah-Muslim heaven" where you get 72 virgin wives and live like a king for murdering Christians and Jews while on earth. When you die, you either live in heaven or you will live in hell. Hell is real baby. Jesus talked more about hell then He did heaven and I conclude that the reason He did was because He wanted to keep us out of that place. Hell was created for the Devil and his followers and you are not supposed to be there.
Inclusionists/Universalists are now saying that God is such a merciful and forgiving God, and that no one is a mistake in His eyes including Satan. They say God knew exactly what He was doing and created Satan knowing that Satan would one day turn against Him. They are teaching that Satan will one day bow before God and say, "I opposed you, I am sorry, please forgive me." They say that when that happens Satan himself will be allowed to enter heaven! Bull Butter! Anyone who teaches that philosophy is in direct contradiction to what the scriptures say concerning Satan where it says the devil and his followers will be sent into the everlasting lake of fire to burn for eternity. The bottom line is: Do not believe any doctrine that contradicts what is written in the Bible. If it does not line up with God's word then it is not true. Period. End of story.
Rejecters and Accepters of Christ will all bow a knee to Him. Rejecters will be totally convinced of their folly during their earthly life, and will bow to Him, but their fate is sealed, as they had their chance. :(
:salute:
There is so much wrong w/ this post and junk taken out of context - and I've already covered these topics way earlier in this thread...
Oh, and the Gotcha:
You also didn't answer my question: Was Christ lying when he said "I will draw ALL men unto me"?
crin63
07-30-2009, 01:09 PM
Do you homework- Christ NEVER mentioned ANY "place" called Hell.. I'm sorry.. it's not in there.... He only spoke of Gehenna which IS a Physical place here on Earth..
You're wrong on this one.
All 4 of the following scriptures Jesus used the word hades not the word for Gehenna.
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Luk 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
When He used the word Gehenna it was figurative. The Jews of that day referred to Gehenna as hell because it was someplace that no Jew would ever want to go.
Matthew 5:22, Matt 18:9, Mar 9:43, Mar 9:45, Mar 9:47, Jesus used the term hell (Gehenna) and in the same verse fire (poor) which means fiery or fire. The place Jesus was in reference to was a fiery Gehenna which is representative of hell. You cant take it out of context to support your conclusions.
You also cant dismiss the times that Jesus mentioned people being cast into the fire whether literally or figuratively.
eighballsidepocket
07-30-2009, 01:13 PM
There is so much wrong w/ this post and junk taken out of context - and I've already covered these topics way earlier in this thread...
Oh, and the Gotcha:
You also didn't answer my question: Was Christ lying when he said "I will draw ALL men unto me"?
Oh it got answered. Your "drag" all men isn't a bad way of saying it.
In the end, the sovereignty of God will be most apparent to both the damned and the saved. All knees will bow either from regret or adulation and praise.
All knees will bow, as mentioned in my last post.
John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48). Those in hell will bow, as well as those in heaven. Those in hell will finally be forced to believe, because they will finally realize their folly, and unbelief has sealed their fate.
******
It's apparent that you didn't read all the myriads of scripture that specifically say that there is a "hell" and Heaven, and the fact that Jesus' ministry to the Jews, included more statements about hell's reality and who would end up there than He did about heaven. Obviously, He/Jesus seemed to consider hell a more important topic as He desired that "all" people be saved, and thus kept "hell" at the foremost of his topics.
Your "drag" all men isn't a bad interpretation, but it is backed by your desire that Universal Salvation be the ultimate truth. That is not correct, deductive bible/scriptural study, but is "inductive", and is not safe or healthy bible hermeneutics.
We are suppose to let the bible in total, speak to us, not "induce" by taking partial contexts out so that we may support our wants or desires that are humanistic and not based on God's nature.
Gods nature is of a love that we want to interpret or induce as universally inclusive to forgiveness without man's willful participation in the process of restoration, that requires a contrite and repentant heart.
Where does "grace" come in with universal salvation? Grace requires a response of "yeah or nay". It is by "grace" that God considers us for eternal salvation.
Grace is offering unmerited favor, but it involves accepting responsibility for our condition. That is repentance.
Pride is the opposite of a contrite and humble heart. It says it wants God to be this or that way, so that I feel good about things and myself. The humanistic approach to defining God is "boxing" God into man's paradigm. Man's paradigm is "survival" no matter what. God's paradigm is not a syrupee, enabling love, but a "tough" love, that requires man to exercise his will in regards to the gift of "grace" through Jesus' attoning death.
God is not a "feel good" god, but is a righteos and holy God, who calls all men, but leaves it to the freewill of man to refuse that calling.
Yes, one day all men will bow their knees to Him; some in praise, and others in sorrow, and regret.
******** :salute:
chesswarsnow
07-30-2009, 03:22 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. This almost reminds me of a *clause*, like in some contract, "Lord Jesus you said, ALL."
2. As if seeing Gods words can be twisted to mean whatever some one says it means, "to them".
3. As if this *clause* is a *Free Get Out Of Hell Card*
4. Novel idea, but I don't think many will be able to hire a lawyer in that day.
5. When judgement comes.
6. I wonder just how many lawyers will make it into heaven?
7. I have a lawyer, he seems like a great guy, and very knowledgeable.
8. I think he may be fine.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
You're wrong on this one.
All 4 of the following scriptures Jesus used the word hades not the word for Gehenna.
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Luk 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
When He used the word Gehenna it was figurative. The Jews of that day referred to Gehenna as hell because it was someplace that no Jew would ever want to go.
Matthew 5:22, Matt 18:9, Mar 9:43, Mar 9:45, Mar 9:47, Jesus used the term hell (Gehenna) and in the same verse fire (poor) which means fiery or fire. The place Jesus was in reference to was a fiery Gehenna which is representative of hell. You cant take it out of context to support your conclusions.
You also cant dismiss the times that Jesus mentioned people being cast into the fire whether literally or figuratively.
Either way, Christ is describing an EARTHLY place... not some mystical man-made-up place of eternal suffering..
If you guys really want to educate yourself on the concept of "hell" - then just watch these as he does an awesome job of talking about it:
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crin63
07-30-2009, 05:41 PM
Either way, Christ is describing an EARTHLY place... not some mystical man-made-up place of eternal suffering..
So the place of departed souls (hades) is here on earth? So when Jesus went to hades after he was crucified he was just hanging out in Gehenna with the trash huh? Interesting that would mean that Abrahams bosom was just the trash dump, sounds wonderful. Help me out here because I'm not seeing it.
How do you view these verses?
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So the place of departed souls (hades) is here on earth? So when Jesus went to hades after he was crucified he was just hanging out in Gehenna with the trash huh? Interesting that would mean that Abrahams bosom was just the trash dump, sounds wonderful. Help me out here because I'm not seeing it.
Hades - in the Hebrew means Grave -last I checked, everyone's grave is an earthly place, yeah..
How do you view these verses?
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
God is the lake of fire - remember - revelation is written in a very Symbolic way.. It's his fire that'll purge the souls of the lost and all of his creation so they can be reunited with their creator.
Throughout the Bible the references of fire are commonly used in a purging/cleansing way...
I find it interesting how many Christians will point to all sorts of text in Revelation and say things like "Oh, well John meant this or that (i.e. the multi-headed beast etc) but when it comes to his term of "lake of fire" - they claim that it's literal..
5stringJeff
07-30-2009, 06:32 PM
Wow, I've got a lot of catching up to do... :)
First, to your point that you've attempted to make, using multiple verses, about Christ being lifted up and drawing all men to Him, etc. The point of these verses is that Jesus Christ is the only savior. There is no option to be saved by someone else - Jesus is the ONLY way to be saved.
Second, your dodge of "eternal" punishment. You claim that the Greek words translated eternal should "really" be translated as 'age-lasting.' But you don't apply that consistently. For example, Matthew 25:46 says, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The exact same word is used in both cases. If you say that "eternal" punishment does not last forever, then "eternal" life also could not last forever. Is that your argument? Or was Jesus wrong? This same word is used dozens of other times in the New Testament to describe eternal life. if "eternal" life is truly never-ending, then eternal punsihment must also be never-ending for the Bible to be linguistically sound; if "eternal" punishment is not never-ending, then eternal life must not be never-ending either.
Third, as to your denial of a place called Hell: you can't dodge the last book of the Bible by calling it all metaphorical. The concept of eternal punishment is in the Gospels, the writings of Paul (see 2 Thess 1:9), and the general letters (Heb. 6:2, Jude 6-7). To see it manifest in Revelation should be no surprise. It is clear that there is an eternal punishment for the evil and for non-believers.
Wow, I've got a lot of catching up to do... :)
First, to your point that you've attempted to make, using multiple verses, about Christ being lifted up and drawing all men to Him, etc. The point of these verses is that Jesus Christ is the only savior. There is no option to be saved by someone else - Jesus is the ONLY way to be saved.
You're wrong, sorry - the point is as Christ himself clearly states - he will draw ALL men unto himself. He didn't say only the "few"... he said all.
Second, your dodge of "eternal" punishment. You claim that the Greek words translated eternal should "really" be translated as 'age-lasting.' But you don't apply that consistently. For example, Matthew 25:46 says, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The exact same word is used in both cases. If you say that "eternal" punishment does not last forever, then "eternal" life also could not last forever. Is that your argument? Or was Jesus wrong?
There we read of the judgment of Lord Jesus upon his assension to power. In this text, Lord Jesus tells us that when he assends his throne he will gather the nations together like sheep and goats. Then he will separate them. The sheep will go on his right side, signifying their favored status and the goats on his left signifying their lack of favor.
But what does our Lord mean by “the nations?” usually, it is assumed he means the people who make up nations. In other words, it is claimed that this text refer to the final judgment at the end of the world! But could Jesus have been referring in-stead to the fate of governments in our present Church Age of today?
A careful examination of the text reveals that indeed, it was governments rather than people that Jesus had in mind in this pas-sage. Here’s how we can know this:
First, if the sheep are one of two groups that Jesus is judging regarding how well they treated his “brethrern,” (ie. Christ-ians), they cannot at the same time be the Christians themselves. Otherwise Jesus would be judging them on how they treated themselves which makes no sense.
Second, the sheep and goats are judged exclusively by how well they treated Christians. Now scripture clearly teaches that only by faith in Christ can someone be saved, and not by works. Yet if this passage refers to individual people and personal eschatology, as most interpreters maintain, then we have people being saved not by faith in Christ but by the good work of treating Christians well. This flies squarely in the face of the rest of the New Testament teaching.
Finally, look at the context. Christ was pronouncing immanent judgment upon the religious leadership of Israel. Israel’s leadership, not mankind as a whole, was in view.
He warns the religious leaders in chapter twenty three about the judgment coming upon them.
Then in chapter twenty four he warns them of the judgment coming upon their corrupt worship system which would including the destruction of the temple.
When was all this to take place? Not at the end of the world but at the beginning of the Church Age! It would happen when Jesus assended his throne!
As we read in Psalm 110 “The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” He assended his throne at the beginning of the Church Age, not it’s culmination. At the end of Matthew’s Gospel when he delivers the Great Com-mission, he already declared that all power and authority has been (past tense) given unto him.
Furthermore, he prophesied that this advent would come to pass in their gener-ation. Before that generation then living passed away Jesus said that he would come, (Matt.24:34) and his coming would be like lightning flashing from the east yet visible in the west. He would come on the clouds with power and great glory!
This occurred, as predicted, in A.D. 70 when the Roman Emporer Titus send his legions to decimate the Temple and kill the Jews. (For more elaberation on this concept the reader is urged to read Jay Addam’s book, “The Time Is At Hand.”)
Now, in chapter twenty five, Lord Jesus is telling them that when he assends his throne, (which, as was just noted, happened in A.D. 70) he would bless those nations who blessed his brethren (christ-ians) and curse the nations who cursed his brethern. This then, could not be a proph-ecy of the final judgment but of immanent judgment. It was to happen before that same generation passed away!
Want more proof? In Acts 2:16 Peter said that the Pentecostal “tongues” phenom-enon that the Jews witnessed was the ful-fillment of Joel 2: 28. But in Joel 3:1-2 we read that “In those days,” God would gather the nations and judge them regard-ing how they treated his people, Israel. Now Jesus reveals in Matt. 25 that the Israel Joel spoke of was not national Israel but spiritual Israel, (Rom. 2: 28-29; 9:6-7) The nations he refers to therefore cannot be the people of God because Joel was not referring to them in his prophecy.
The Sheep and Goat event Jesus predicts is clearly the same event to which Joel re-fered. In both cases the nations are to be judged by how they treat God’s people in the “days” of the pentecost event, which, of course, is this present Church Age!
Finally, what is the judgment to which the wicked goats are to be subjected? Is it endless torment?
Lets examine the text. In the original greek it reads:
kai apeleusontai outoi eis kolasin aionion, oi de dikaioi eis zoen aionion.
I would translate this as follows…
“And these nations will be punished during the age to come, but the righteous nations will be blessed during that age.”
Notice what I have done in our translation with the phrases “everlasting torment” and “eternal life.” Here’s why: The words ren-dered “everlasting torment” are literally translated as “age lasting chastisement”. The words rendered “eternal life” are “age long life.” The idea is that the wicked nations will be punished during the Church Age and the righteous nations will be blessed with enduring life and pros-perity during the Church Age.
My translation is not literal but it carries the full meaning and import of the text.
So what can we say about all this?
1) Matthew 25 does not deal with personal eschatology at all but with the fate of the nations under the ruler of Lord Jesus.
2) 2) That their fate was to be either divine blessing or terrible chastise-ment throughout the Church Age depending on how these govern-ments treat God’s people.
It is truly comforting to know that God is on his throne to protects his people in this life, ruling over the nations with a rod of iron. And it is still more comforting to know that this passage does not teach that God will torment the lost forever without the possibility of mercy or pardon.
“For men are not cast off by the LORD forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love.” – Lamentations 3:31-32
This same word is used dozens of other times in the New Testament to describe eternal life. if "eternal" life is truly never-ending, then eternal punsihment must also be never-ending for the Bible to be linguistically sound; if "eternal" punishment is not never-ending, then eternal life must not be never-ending either.
Please cite scriptures and we can deal w/ each passage...
Third, as to your denial of a place called Hell: you can't dodge the last book of the Bible by calling it all metaphorical. The concept of eternal punishment is in the Gospels, the writings of Paul (see 2 Thess 1:9), and the general letters (Heb. 6:2, Jude 6-7). To see it manifest in Revelation should be no surprise. It is clear that there is an eternal punishment for the evil and for non-believers.
I'll go into the topic of the Lake of Fire in a diff post..
Kathianne
07-30-2009, 07:54 PM
Hey, when any of you claim to have spoken to God, let me know. Personally, I'm sure I'm not perfect, pretty sure you aren't, and have my doubts about the saints.
crin63
07-30-2009, 08:08 PM
Hades - in the Hebrew means Grave -last I checked, everyone's grave is an earthly place, yeah..
God is the lake of fire - remember - revelation is written in a very Symbolic way.. It's his fire that'll purge the souls of the lost and all of his creation so they can be reunited with their creator.
Throughout the Bible the references of fire are commonly used in a purging/cleansing way...
I find it interesting how many Christians will point to all sorts of text in Revelation and say things like "Oh, well John meant this or that (i.e. the multi-headed beast etc) but when it comes to his term of "lake of fire" - they claim that it's literal..
So you are saying that Jesus just rotted in His grave or was it that Abrahams Bosom was in Jesus grave?
Hey, when any of you claim to have spoken to God, let me know. Personally, I'm sure I'm not perfect, pretty sure you aren't, and have my doubts about the saints.
Not really sure what that post has to do w/ the topic, but...
I speak to God all the time - he speaks back to us thru his word..
eighballsidepocket
07-31-2009, 11:07 AM
Not really sure what that post has to do w/ the topic, but...
I speak to God all the time - he speaks back to us thru his word..
It seems CP that God speaks to you through His Word, "inductively" rather than "deductively". ;)
I.E. You seem to already have a pre-set agenda or definition of God's nature. Namely, that God's love is an "enabling" and very naive love. I don't mean this in a demeaning manner towards you personally. It's just that you perceive God in a way, and gleen out of scripture little parcels of verses here and there that meet your definition.
It's easy to say, "I let the bible speak to me.", but in reality, your posts reveal that this isn't the case.
You are using the bible to prove, your hoped-for paradigm that seems to hope that the whole of humanity will go to heaven, and that any references in scripture about "hell", "hades" is figurative, and not objective statements of fact.
This is a humanistic, worldly way of thinking, and isn't God's definition of the future and state of mankind at all.
You ask the average "Joe or Jane" on the street that isn't a Christian, and they will most likely believe there is a heaven or a life-after, but in most cases they will deny that there is a place of judgement or hellish alternative to their "heaven".
Universalism, is that wide road thats mentioned in Revelations. It is the road of easy believeism, as it does not confront man's sin, or personal responsibility for his life's choices/actions.
Just read Romans Chapter 1, and you will see what happens when man denies the existence of God. It gradually will degrade to depravity, and odd beliefs, and in the end.......sadly destruction of that soul.
No man or woman has an excuse, as God has plainly made Himself visible in all of His creation. Yet, He has also preserved for man through His omnipotence the "good news" of His redemption plan for this fallen race/species, namely the bible.
Yes, your right; the bible is suppose to speak to us, and also through us as we "Romans 12" allow it to wash through us and cleanse us of the past before our salvation.
The bible says that we were born with an Adamic nature, or "dead to God" and alive to the world. It also says that God brought forth through His Son a new Adam, namely Jesus Christ. "Who so-ever believeth" is our part in this eternal bond offered by God.
You have ignored the "Who so-ever believeth", and are trying your darndest to prove that it should be "All so-ever believeth". It can't be done unless you "make" the Word of God speak as you want it to. That is "inductive" reasoning, and that is not rational nor truthful bible study/reasoning.
:salute:
It seems CP that God speaks to you through His Word, "inductively" rather than "deductively". ;)
I.E. You seem to already have a pre-set agenda or definition of God's nature. Namely, that God's love is an "enabling" and very naive love. I don't mean this in a demeaning manner towards you personally. It's just that you perceive God in a way, and gleen out of scripture little parcels of verses here and there that meet your definition.
It's easy to say, "I let the bible speak to me.", but in reality, your posts reveal that this isn't the case.
You are using the bible to prove, your hoped-for paradigm that seems to hope that the whole of humanity will go to heaven, and that any references in scripture about "hell", "hades" is figurative, and not objective statements of fact.
This is a humanistic, worldly way of thinking, and isn't God's definition of the future and state of mankind at all.
You ask the average "Joe or Jane" on the street that isn't a Christian, and they will most likely believe there is a heaven or a life-after, but in most cases they will deny that there is a place of judgement or hellish alternative to their "heaven".
Universalism, is that wide road thats mentioned in Revelations. It is the road of easy believeism, as it does not confront man's sin, or personal responsibility for his life's choices/actions.
Just read Romans Chapter 1, and you will see what happens when man denies the existence of God. It gradually will degrade to depravity, and odd beliefs, and in the end.......sadly destruction of that soul.
No man or woman has an excuse, as God has plainly made Himself visible in all of His creation. Yet, He has also preserved for man through His omnipotence the "good news" of His redemption plan for this fallen race/species, namely the bible.
Yes, your right; the bible is suppose to speak to us, and also through us as we "Romans 12" allow it to wash through us and cleanse us of the past before our salvation.
The bible says that we were born with an Adamic nature, or "dead to God" and alive to the world. It also says that God brought forth through His Son a new Adam, namely Jesus Christ. "Who so-ever believeth" is our part in this eternal bond offered by God.
You have ignored the "Who so-ever believeth", and are trying your darndest to prove that it should be "All so-ever believeth". It can't be done unless you "make" the Word of God speak as you want it to. That is "inductive" reasoning, and that is not rational nor truthful bible study/reasoning.
:salute:
I'm not going to keep reposting why your assertions are wrong as I've covered these same topics throughout this thread..
chesswarsnow
07-31-2009, 03:36 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Another great post Eightball!:clap:
2. I think I heard, *CheckMate!*
3. Who wants there to be a hell?
3. a) But nobody gets to pick and choose what reality they believe in.
4. Surely unbelievers don't.
5. If it wasn't so, we wouldn't of been warned about it.
6. By Jesus, and so many others in the Bible.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
5stringJeff
07-31-2009, 06:44 PM
You're wrong, sorry - the point is as Christ himself clearly states - he will draw ALL men unto himself. He didn't say only the "few"... he said all.
The context of "drawing all men unto me" is that Jesus was to become the Savior for both Jews and Gentiles. The preceding verses mention that there were many Greeks in the crowd who had come to Jerusalem during the Passover feast (John 12:20), and that they desired to see Jesus. So, in contrast to the several times that Jesus had declared His earthly mission to be for the Jews only, He declares His death to be for all people - Jews and Gentiles alike.
Since Jesus clearly speaks of some people entering eternal judgment, and others in contrast entering eternal life, we know from inference that Jesus is not declaring universal salvation in this verse.
There we read of the judgment of Lord Jesus upon his assension to power. In this text, Lord Jesus tells us that when he assends his throne he will gather the nations together like sheep and goats. Then he will separate them. The sheep will go on his right side, signifying their favored status and the goats on his left signifying their lack of favor.
But what does our Lord mean by “the nations?” usually, it is assumed he means the people who make up nations. In other words, it is claimed that this text refer to the final judgment at the end of the world! But could Jesus have been referring in-stead to the fate of governments in our present Church Age of today?
A careful examination of the text reveals that indeed, it was governments rather than people that Jesus had in mind in this pas-sage. Here’s how we can know this:
This entire copy-and-paste argument is based on the false premise of preterism (which denies things like the Millennium and believes that all prophecy was completed in AD 70) and is therefore untrustworthy.
Please cite scriptures and we can deal w/ each passage...
Here are 70 of them (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=eternal§ion=2&translation=nsn&oq=eternal&new=1). That's ignoring the references to "eternal" from the Old Testament (since we're discussing the Greek words, not the Hebrew words). There are references to:
eternal fire, eternal life, eternal punishment, an eternal sin, eternal salvation, eternal dwellings, God's eternal power, the eternal God, an eternal weight of glory, unseen things which are eternal, an eternal house, God's eternal purpose, eternal destruction, eternal comfort, eternal judgment, eternal redemption, the eternal Spirit, an eternal inheritance, God's eternal covenant, God's eternal kingdom, eternal bonds under darkness, and the eternal gospel.
All of these use a form of 'Aion,' the word which you claim does not mean 'never-ending.' So, I ask you, if eternal is not never-ending or everlasting, when will God cease to exist? When will the life of the righteous come to an end? When will the Spirit of God's life terminate? Because to be consistent in your translation, if you believe that the punishment and judgment of the unfaithful will come to an end, you must also believe that these things will come to an end.
I'll go into the topic of the Lake of Fire in a diff post..
OK.
Kathianne
07-31-2009, 07:11 PM
I'll not get into 'interpreting God', however we're not all getting 'in.' I don't believe in predestination, at the same time don't believe that choices don't count.
For the main, baring saints, we're all sinners. At some point before we die, it's imperative to make an actual act of contrition prayer. Not a gimme, but sincere remembering that God can see your will. The free will he gave each of us.
5stringJeff
07-31-2009, 08:04 PM
I'll not get into 'interpreting God', however we're not all getting 'in.' I don't believe in predestination, at the same time don't believe that choices don't count.
For the main, baring saints, we're all sinners. At some point before we die, it's imperative to make an actual act of contrition prayer. Not a gimme, but sincere remembering that God can see your will. The free will he gave each of us.
I think we agree on the basics, Kathianne. What I don't believe in - because the Bible doesn't teach it - is universalism.
Kathianne
07-31-2009, 08:35 PM
I think we agree on the basics, Kathianne. What I don't believe in - because the Bible doesn't teach it - is universalism.
Hmm, Jeff. I never heard of that.
I'm quite simple in my faith. Christ saves. What's not so simple is He does it according to His Will, not ours. Those of 'US' that purport to knowing that abortion is wrong, (I subscribe) may be surprised to find HE disagreed. On the other hand those that were so certain that 'all will be saved' may be in for a rude awakening.
Truth to tell, i've not a clue.
I try to be a believer in the risen Christ. I don't go for judging, which may be a sin in itself? My best guess, God will look to each soul, which seems overwhelming, but He is God.
avatar4321
07-31-2009, 08:56 PM
Still say that Christ does save us all from death. Just not all from damnation.
The context of "drawing all men unto me" is that Jesus was to become the Savior for both Jews and Gentiles. The preceding verses mention that there were many Greeks in the crowd who had come to Jerusalem during the Passover feast (John 12:20), and that they desired to see Jesus. So, in contrast to the several times that Jesus had declared His earthly mission to be for the Jews only, He declares His death to be for all people - Jews and Gentiles alike.
Since Jesus clearly speaks of some people entering eternal judgment, and others in contrast entering eternal life, we know from inference that Jesus is not declaring universal salvation in this verse.
Once the judgment of this world has run its full course and the ruler of this world is cast out, Christ will drag all men to Himself. A little further (vs. 47), He states that He came “to save the world” (not merely “some” out of it). The word “draw” (helkouo) is literally “to drag.”2 It does not depend on the resistance of the one being pulled,
but on the power of the one pulling.
See the following passages:
♦ Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck …(Jn. 18:10).
♦ Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish
(Jn. 21:11).
♦ They seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market
place (Ac. 16:19 NAS).
♦ Taking hold of Paul, they dragged him out of the temple (Ac.
21:30 NAS).
♦ Is it not the rich who…drag you into court (Ja. 2:6)?
As the “sword,” “net,” “Paul,” “Silas,” and the poor were not able to resist the powers that overcame them, neither can men resist Christ’s power to drag them. No one can come to God unless the Father drags them in (Jn. 6:44). The stress of the power is placed on God who drags, and not a person’s resistance to being dragged.
Here are 70 of them (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=eternal§ion=2&translation=nsn&oq=eternal&new=1). That's ignoring the references to "eternal" from the Old Testament (since we're discussing the Greek words, not the Hebrew words). There are references to:
eternal fire, eternal life, eternal punishment, an eternal sin, eternal salvation, eternal dwellings, God's eternal power, the eternal God, an eternal weight of glory, unseen things which are eternal, an eternal house, God's eternal purpose, eternal destruction, eternal comfort, eternal judgment, eternal redemption, the eternal Spirit, an eternal inheritance, God's eternal covenant, God's eternal kingdom, eternal bonds under darkness, and the eternal gospel.
All of these use a form of 'Aion,' the word which you claim does not mean 'never-ending.' So, I ask you, if eternal is not never-ending or everlasting, when will God cease to exist? When will the life of the righteous come to an end? When will the Spirit of God's life terminate? Because to be consistent in your translation, if you believe that the punishment and judgment of the unfaithful will come to an end, you must also believe that these things will come to an end.
OK.
I'm not even sure why I'll bother posting this as it's clear you disregard any rebuttal I post anyways...
From the book: Hope Beyond Hell:
The first pillar we will examine is the Greek word, aion. It is mostly translated “eternal,” “everlasting,” and for “ever” in the King James Version. However, some translations read “age-abiding,” “ageduring,” or “eon,” as noted below. “Robert Young, author of the highly respected Young’s Analytical Concordance, in his literal translation of the Bible, always translates it ‘age’ and never once as ‘everlasting,’ or ‘eternal.’”
Old Testament (Greek Septuagint)
In History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution,
Edward Beecher, D.D., pointed out:
The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Old Testament and was the Bible of the early church. The word aion occurs in it about four hundred times in every variety of combination. The adjective aionios derived from it, is used over one hundred times.…Aion denoted an age, great or small, so the adjective aionios expressed the idea pertaining to or belonging to the aion, whether great or small. But in every case this adjective derives its character and duration from the aion to which it refers.
In the Septuagint the Greek word, aion, is used to translate the Hebrew word olam. Thus, if we want to get a sense of the New Testament meaning of aion, we need to understand the meaning of olam in the Old Testament. Numerous passages referring to olam show clearly it cannot mean “never-ending.”
Note these few:
♦ Jonah was in the fish forever [olam] until he left three days
later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).
♦ Sodom’s fiery judgment is eternal [olam] until God returns
them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).
♦ A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation forever
[olam] until the 10th generation (De. 23:3).
♦ Hills are everlasting [olam] until made low…earth is burned
up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).
♦ Mountains are everlasting
[olam] until they are scattered
(Hab. 3:6).
♦ A slave serves his master forever
[olam] until death ends
his servitude (Ex. 21:6).
♦ The Mosaic covenant is everlasting
[olam] until it vanishes
away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).
♦ The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam] until the likeness
of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).
♦ These “stones” are to be a memorial forever until (Jos. 4:7)?
Where are they now?
♦ The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam] until his
death, of course (2K. 5:27).
♦ God dwells in Solomon’s temple forever [olam] until it is destroyed
(2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).
♦ Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam] until
ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).
♦ Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant until the
new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).
♦ Israel’s judgment lasts forever [olam] until the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).
♦ I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence until many generations
(Is. 60:15).
Even passages that do not use olam but signify unchanging are not so when God is involved. Nothing can deter Him from achieving
His purposes. For example:
♦ Israel’s affliction is incurable until the Lord restores health
and heals her wounds (Jer. 30:12, 17).
♦ Samaria’s wounds are incurable until the Lord brings them
back and restores them (Mic. 1:9; Ez. 16:53 DOUAY).
♦ Egypt and Elam will rise no more until the Lord brings back
their captives (Jer. 25:27; 49:39; Ez. 29:14).
♦ Moab is destroyed until the Lord brings back the captives of
Moab (Jer. 48:4, 42, 47).
New Testament
Turning from the Greek Old Testament, consider the New Testament use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages?
♦ What will be the sign…of the end of [eternity] (Mt. 24:3)?
♦ I am with you…to the end of the [eternity] (Mt. 28:20).
♦ The sons of this [eternity] are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).
♦ The sons of this [eternity] marry (Lu. 20:34).
♦ Worthy to attain that [eternity] (Lu. 20:35).
♦ Since the [eternity] began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).
♦ Conformed to this [eternity] (Ro. 12:2).
♦ Mystery kept secret since the [eternity] began but now
made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).
♦ Where is the disputer of this [eternity] (1Co. 1:20)?
♦ Wisdom of this [eternity], nor of the rulers of this [eternity]…
ordained before the [eternities]…which none of the
rulers of this [eternity]… (1Co. 2:6-8).
♦ Wise in this [eternity] (1Co. 3:18).
♦ Upon whom the ends of the [eternities] have come
(1Co. 10:11).
♦ God of this [eternity] has blinded (2Co. 4:4).
♦ Deliver us from this present evil [eternity] (Ga. 1:4).
♦ Not only in this [eternity] but also in that which is to come
(Ep. 1:21).
♦ Walked according to the [eternity] of this world (Ep. 2:2).
♦ In the [eternities] to come (Ep. 2:7).
♦ From the beginnings of the [eternities] (Ep. 3:9).
♦ Hidden from [eternities]…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).
♦ Loved this present [eternity] (2Ti. 4:10).
♦ Receive him [for eternity] (Phil. 1:15). Forever or until
Onesimus, Philemon’s former slave, dies?
♦ Powers of the [eternity] to come (He. 6:5).
♦ At the end of the [eternities] (He. 9:26).
♦ We understand the [eternities] have been prepared by a
saying of God (He. 11:3).
How can we say…
♦ “before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning
(Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).
♦ “present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity”?
Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3;
28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).
♦ “this eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only
one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8;
3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26;
2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).
♦ “eternal secret” if the secret is revealed (Ro. 16:25-26; Col.
1:26)? It is no longer a “secret” at that point.
♦ Onesimus will be Philemon’s slave for eternity? Is he still his
slave (Phil. 1:15)?
Scores of passages demonstrate that aion is of limited duration. In his book God’s Methods with Man, G. Campbell Morgan (scholar,associate of D.L. Moody, and a highly respected expositor of Scripture), said:
Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity.” We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our “eternal,” which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is—“unto the ages of the ages,” which does not literally mean eternally.
In his Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent, D.D., Baldwin Professor of Sacred Literature at Union Theological Seminary, New York, explained:
Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9, 15) said, “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence, it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Il v.685; Odv.160). It is not, however, limited to human life. It signifies any period in the course of the millennium, the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (DeQuincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.…The adjective aionious in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.
They may acquire that sense by their connotation....Aionios means “enduring through” or “pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods....Out of the 150 instances in LXX, [Greek Old Testament] four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances, see Gen. xlviii. 4; Num. x. 8; xv. 15; Prov. xxii.28; Jonah ii.6; Hab. iii. 6; Isa lxi. 17.
So what if the Greek word aion has been erroneously translated “eternal” instead of “age”? What does that have to do with everlasting punishment? It has everything to do with it, since one of the key texts used in defense of the Augustinian view of hell is Mt. 25:46: “And these will go away into everlasting [aionian] punishment.” If this passage as translated here is accurate, then I would have to admit the Bible teaches that hell is forever. But what if it is not? What if aion does not mean “everlasting”? What would that do to the “biblical support” of an infinite hell? It would negate the use of any verses resting on the word aion used in its defense.
Consider how the following translations word this phrase:
♦ Young’s Literal Translation: “punishment age-during.”
♦ Rotherham Translation: “age-abiding correction.”
♦ Weymouth Translation: “punishment of the ages.”
♦ Concordant Literal Translation: “chastening eonian.”
These reputable and literal translations use the word “age” and not “eternal.” These two concepts are diametrically opposed to one another. They are not the same by any means. An age has a beginning and an end; eternity does not.
Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether.
Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine.
The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel or the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages. In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal.
Matthew 25:46 contains an additional clue confirming the temporary nature of God’s judgment. The Greek word, translated “punishment,” is kolasis. William Barclay, world-renowned Greek scholar, translator, and author of the popular Bible commentary, The Daily Study Bible and New Testament Words, notes:
The Greek word for punishment here [Mt. 25:46] is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.
Thomas Talbott, philosophy professor at Willamette University in Oregon and author of The Inescapable Love of God, explained:
According to Aristotle, there is a difference between revenge and punishment; the latter (kolasis) is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer, the former (timōria) in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.
Plato also appealed to the established meaning of kolasis as support for his theory that virtue could be taught: “For if you will consider punishment (kolasis)…and what control it has over wrong-doers, the facts will inform
you that men agree in regarding virtue as procured.” Even where a punishment may seem harsh and unforgiving, more like retribution than parental chastisement, this in no way excludes a corrective purpose. Check out the punishment that Paul prescribes in I Corinthians 5:5. One might never have guessed that, in prescribing such a punishment— that is, delivering a man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh—Paul had in mind a corrective purpose, had Paul not explicitly stated the corrective purpose himself (“that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”).
So as this text illustrates, even harsh punishment of a seemingly retributive kind can in fact serve a redemptive purpose.
“And these will go away into everlasting [aionian] punishment [kolasis], but the righteous into eternal [aionian] life” (Mt. 25:46). Isn’t it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?
Aionian (eternal), when associated with God, may simply refer to that which comes forth from Him and relates to His purposes; a quality of essence rather than of duration. Is this not what our Lord intends in John 17:3: “And this is eternal life, that they may know You”? If this is so, perhaps the Matthew passage could be paraphrased this way: “And these will go away into the chastisement of God, but the righteous into the life of God.”
Professor Talbott confirms this:
When the letter of Jude describes the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah as “eternal fire,” the point is not that the fire literally burns forever without consuming the cities; it is not that the fire continues to burn even today. The point is that the fire is a form of divine judgment upon those cities…that has its causal source in the eternal God himself. And similar for Jesus’ reference to “eternal fire” in Matthew 25:41 and to “eternal punishment” in Matthew 25:46. The fire to which he alludes is not eternal in the sense that it burns forever without consuming anything—without consuming, for example, that which is false within a person (see 1 Co. 3:15)—and neither is the punishment eternal in the sense that it continues forever without accomplishing its corrective purpose. Both the fire and the punishment are eternal in the sense that they have their causal source in the eternal God himself.
Similarly Barclay wrote:
The simplest way to put it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.
Talbott continues:
The Gospel writers thought in terms of two ages, the present age and the age to come, and they associated the age to come with God himself; it was an age in which God’s presence would be fully manifested, his purposes fully realized, and his redemptive work eventually completed. They therefore came to employ the term, “αίώνίος,” [aionios] as an eschatological [doctrine of end times] term, one that functioned as a handy reference to the realities of the age to come. In this way, they managed to combine the more literal sense of “that which pertains to an age” with the more religious sense of “that which manifests the presence of God in a special way.” Eternal life, then, is not merely life that comes from God; it is also the mode of living associated with the age to come. And similarly for eternal punishment: It is not merely punishment that comes from God; it is also the form of punishment associated with the age to come. Now in none of this is there any implication that the life that comes from God and the punishment that comes from God are of an equal duration.” Likewise, Beecher demonstrates that in the days of the early
church the idea was “punishment of the world to come.” The early Church establishes that fact through the ancient creeds. In fact, in none of its creeds did the early Church teach everlasting punishment.
Likewise, Beecher demonstrates that in the days of the early church the idea was “punishment of the world to come.” The early Church establishes that fact through the ancient creeds. In fact, in none of its creeds did the early Church teach everlasting punishment.
Arguing that eternal punishment must be of unending duration because it is contrasted with eternal life (Mt. 25:46) misses the point. It fails to recognize that eternal life is a quality of relationship with God (Jn. 17:3), and is an end in itself; while eternal punishment is God’s corrective discipline and a means to an end. In any case, whether aion means “age-abiding,” “of God,” or “of the world to come,” none of these expressions state, imply, or require that the punishment be never-ending.
So then, if aion does not strictly mean eternal, what word does? There are a number of Greek words that imply eternal. They are usually translated “indestructible,” “imperishable,” “unfading,” “immortality,” and “incorruptible.” See Ro. 1:23; 2:7; 1Co. 9:25; 15:42, 51-54; He. 7:15-16; 1Pe. 1:3-4; 5:4; 1Ti. 1:17; 6:16; 2Ti. 1:10.
Our hope of immortality does not reside in the word aionios, but in God’s very nature (unfailing love and unlimited power) and promises.
This short discussion on the word aion is just an introduction. I highly recommend you read The History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution by Dr. Edward Beecher. I found his research and findings incontestable.
So long as we have a flawed understanding of this four letter Greek word, we will remain blinded to the truth in relation to God’s judgments.
5stringJeff
08-02-2009, 02:29 PM
Once the judgment of this world has run its full course and the ruler of this world is cast out, Christ will drag all men to Himself. A little further (vs. 47), He states that He came “to save the world” (not merely “some” out of it). The word “draw” (helkouo) is literally “to drag.”2 It does not depend on the resistance of the one being pulled,
but on the power of the one pulling.
See the following passages:
♦ Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck …(Jn. 18:10).
♦ Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish
(Jn. 21:11).
♦ They seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market
place (Ac. 16:19 NAS).
♦ Taking hold of Paul, they dragged him out of the temple (Ac.
21:30 NAS).
♦ Is it not the rich who…drag you into court (Ja. 2:6)?
As the “sword,” “net,” “Paul,” “Silas,” and the poor were not able to resist the powers that overcame them, neither can men resist Christ’s power to drag them. No one can come to God unless the Father drags them in (Jn. 6:44). The stress of the power is placed on God who drags, and not a person’s resistance to being dragged.
This is bad hermeneutics. To simply say that something is being dragged or drawn (both are acceptable translations of the word) says nothing about the strength, ability, or will of either the subject or object of the drawing/dragging.
I'm not even sure why I'll bother posting this as it's clear you disregard any rebuttal I post anyways...
From the book: Hope Beyond Hell:
Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity.” We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our “eternal,” which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is—“unto the ages of the ages,” which does not literally mean eternally.
I took this particular sentence out of the book that you copied and pasted, because it gets to the root of the argument. There is no word in Greek that exactly matches the English word "eternal" - such is the nature of translation. However, that does not mean that the word "aionion" never means "eternal." Here's my own copy-and-paste article, which rebuts your copy-and-paste article.
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/universalism/look-word-aionion
A look at the word "aionion"
greek aionionUniversalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.
To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is "aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.
The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.
With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.
This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)
The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.
How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?
The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.
1. John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
2. John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
3. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
4. Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
5. Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
6. Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
7. Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
8. 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
9. 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
10. 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.
1. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
2. Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
3. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
4. Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
5. Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
6. Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
7. 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
8. Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.
I'm well aware with Carm - thx for the reply..
I think - pertaining to the sheep and the goats - the context of Aion is quite clear.
Christ is separating the nations, not individuals, and it's clear form the context he's judging them on their works towards his believers.
The entire parable has nothing to do with salvation so the context that those who didn't do the good works towards the "least of his brethren" go into some sort of age-lasting correction.
Additionally, you can't ignore:
The Greek word for punishment here [Mt. 25:46] is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.
chesswarsnow
08-02-2009, 05:45 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Looking at the big picture, you have to have hell.
2. Otherwise, people live like hell, and still get dragged into heaven.
3. What if they hate God, and still have to go to heaven?
4. Won't they be like starting crap there?
5. All those lessons where Jesus taught about one going to hell, begging for a drop of water on his tounge, and begging that some one go tell his family about hell, so they don't end up with him in hell, *a fabrication* ~ fiction, told by, Jesus ~ not!
6. Its just to far out there man, I think CP just should give it up.
7. But I know he won't.:laugh2:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. Looking at the big picture, you have to have hell.
2. Otherwise, people live like hell, and still get dragged into heaven.
3. What if they hate God, and still have to go to heaven?
4. Won't they be like starting crap there?
5. All those lessons where Jesus taught about one going to hell, begging for a drop of water on his tounge, and begging that some one go tell his family about hell, so they don't end up with him in hell, *a fabrication* ~ fiction, told by, Jesus ~ not!
6. Its just to far out there man, I think CP just should give it up.
7. But I know he won't.:laugh2:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
1. Why?
2. Everyone behaves like hell - "there is no one righteous" says the Bible.
3. Nobody hates God who has truly met him - we were created to worship him - what people hate are "christians" example of him.
4. You speak of the parable of the Rich Man which has nothing to do with "hell".
5. Sorry, I'm not going to give up knowing the mind-blowing graces that God has for all his creation - God is Love and Love NEVER Fails..
chesswarsnow
08-02-2009, 10:37 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. What if you are proprogating error?
2. People who might of repented, read your stuff here, believe it, then just take their chances on there not being a hell.
3. Then one day comes along and wham!
4. Hit by the proverbial bus!
5. Then all of a sudden find themselves hip high in flames, while worms are boring through their heads, and entire body.
6. Are you going to be good with that?
7. You might want to ask yourself that very important question.
8. You really need some lessons on seeing the *BIG PICTURE*.
9. Oh and my parable reference is correct.
10. Don't make me go and get it!
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. What if you are proprogating error?
2. People who might of repented, read your stuff here, believe it, then just take their chances on there not being a hell.
3. Then one day comes along and wham!
4. Hit by the proverbial bus!
5. Then all of a sudden find themselves hip high in flames, while worms are boring through their heads, and entire body.
6. Are you going to be good with that?
7. You might want to ask yourself that very important question.
8. You really need some lessons on seeing the *BIG PICTURE*.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
The problem you seem to have is that people will not gladly love their creator unless he holds a "gun" (eternal punishment) to their head.
That isn't true love - if I hold a gun to your head and say "love me or else" - where's the love in that?
chesswarsnow
08-02-2009, 10:54 PM
Sorry bout that,
The problem you seem to have is that people will not gladly love their creator unless he holds a "gun" (eternal punishment) to their head.
That isn't true love - if I hold a gun to your head and say "love me or else" - where's the love in that?
1. No man, God wants you to accept his son's sacrifice, of your own free will.
2. For God so loved the world, etc.
3. If, a person doesn't want to accept it, God isn't going to hold a gun to some ones head, they just get flung down to a place he pre-determined that they would have to go.
4. God's master plan is his plan, and he can do what he wants with his creation, as a potter does with his pot.
5. To stand in the way of that is insanity, you should start to listen, I have nothing to win, God has a plan, and its etched in stone.
6. My advice is don't try to subvert that my friend.
7. You may inadvertingly lead some to hell, I say with all honesty.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. No man, God wants you to accept his son's sacrifice, of your own free will.
2. For God so loved the world, etc.
3. If, a person doesn't want to accept it, God isn't going to hold a gun to some ones head, they just get flung down to a place he pre-determined that they would have to go.
4. God's master plan is his plan, and he can do what he wants with his creation, as a potter does with his pot.
5. To stand in the way of that is insanity, you should start to listen, I have nothing to win, God has a plan, and its etched in stone.
6. My advice is don't try to subvert that my friend.
7. You may inadvertingly lead some to hell, I say with all honesty.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
1. All good-sounding platitudes (of which I used to spout off as well), however, not scripturally sound.
2. The Bible is quite clear that EVERY KNEE will bow and EVERY Tongue will confess he is Lord.
3. Romans 10:9,10 says when someone does that - they are born-again.
4. It's quite clear that you haven't done much research into this topic and believe only what your church tells you.
5. I still like ya tho :)
chesswarsnow
08-02-2009, 11:07 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. All good-sounding platitudes (of which I used to spout off as well), however, not scripturally sound.
2. The Bible is quite clear that EVERY KNEE will bow and EVERY Tongue will confess he is Lord.
3. Romans 10:9,10 says when someone does that - they are born-again.
4. It's quite clear that you haven't done much research into this topic and believe only what your church tells you.
5. I still like ya tho :)
1. I can see your set in this doctrine.
2. I just hope others are not swayed, I don't agree to it at all.
3. Its false.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. I can see your set in this doctrine.
2. I just hope others are not swayed, I don't agree to it at all.
3. Its false.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Here's a few for you to chew on:
- If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible? Why is the word "Hell" not found in the Jew's Bible which is the Christian's Old Testament? Furthermore, the word "Hell" has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why? Because the best scholarship demands it. (The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe. The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity.
- If Hell as a place of everlasting tortures was the real fate of all mankind unless they did something here on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal life being forever tortured in burning fire and brimstone.
- If Hell was real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law.
- If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, "Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there? (Again please note, most Christian Bibles NO LONGER have the word "Hell" in the Old Testament. The KJV written over 350 years ago is an exception. The Jews do NOT put the word "Hell" in their English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament and the leading English Christian Bibles have removed it because it is NOT in the originals. Most Christian scholars now acknowledge it should never have been placed there in the first place.)
- If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated "Hell" thirty-0ne times, "grave" thirty-one times and "pit" three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King's translators make some gross translational errors?
- If Hell was real and all died NOT because of their transgressions but because of Adam's transgression (Rom 5:18), why do many Christians not see what is plainly written, that "even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN, resulting in JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE!" (Rom. 5:18) This Scripture declares the FACT that all are justified due to Christ's righteous act. No one "decided" to die in Adam, it was "reckoned" to us. Equally no one "decided" to "receive eternal life," it is also "reckoned" to us. (A thorough understanding of Romans Chapter five carefully comparing several English translations would be a very good exercise. The omission of the definite article "the" in Rom. 5:15 before the word "many" in some translations has caused some great misunderstanding of this most important chapter of the Bible.)
- If Hell is real and everlasting, why does Psalm 30:5 say His anger is but for a moment?
- If Hell is real one would never know it by the actions of most Christians. They go through life pretty much like atheists, pagans, etc. If they really believed in Hell, they would spend their entire life trying to snatch their friends and relatives from the burning flames. If Hell is real, why don't they do this?
chesswarsnow
08-03-2009, 08:53 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. In this age of so much liberalism, and so called religious scholars, get them both together, and sure, they will change the word of God, printing presses are not that hard to come by.
2. They want everyone to be a winner!
3. Why keep score at little league, let them all be winners.
4. Thats the easy way out.
5. Painting your world to see what you want.
6. Leads to desruction though.
7. Broad road always does.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. In this age of so much liberalism, and so called religious scholars, get them both together, and sure, they will change the word of God, printing presses are not that hard to come by.
2. They want everyone to be a winner!
3. Why keep score at little league, let them all be winners.
4. Thats the easy way out.
5. Painting your world to see what you want.
6. Leads to desruction though.
7. Broad road always does.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. Great how you avoid direct questions and such :P
chesswarsnow
08-03-2009, 06:50 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. What questions?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. What questions?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=377842&postcount=166
chesswarsnow
08-03-2009, 09:20 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Thats just more twisting of scriptures.
2. I don't have time or energy to refute all of it.
3. I know your views are wrong about this though.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. Thats just more twisting of scriptures.
2. I don't have time or energy to refute all of it.
3. I know your views are wrong about this though.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
LOL - such a convincing argument you have there ! :)
crin63
08-04-2009, 09:52 AM
Here's a few for you to chew on:
- If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible? Why is the word "Hell" not found in the Jew's Bible which is the Christian's Old Testament? Furthermore, the word "Hell" has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why? Because the best scholarship demands it. (The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe. The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity.
- If Hell as a place of everlasting tortures was the real fate of all mankind unless they did something here on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal life being forever tortured in burning fire and brimstone.
- If Hell was real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law.
- If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, "Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there? (Again please note, most Christian Bibles NO LONGER have the word "Hell" in the Old Testament. The KJV written over 350 years ago is an exception. The Jews do NOT put the word "Hell" in their English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament and the leading English Christian Bibles have removed it because it is NOT in the originals. Most Christian scholars now acknowledge it should never have been placed there in the first place.)
- If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated "Hell" thirty-0ne times, "grave" thirty-one times and "pit" three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King's translators make some gross translational errors?
- If Hell was real and all died NOT because of their transgressions but because of Adam's transgression (Rom 5:18), why do many Christians not see what is plainly written, that "even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN, resulting in JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE!" (Rom. 5:18) This Scripture declares the FACT that all are justified due to Christ's righteous act. No one "decided" to die in Adam, it was "reckoned" to us. Equally no one "decided" to "receive eternal life," it is also "reckoned" to us. (A thorough understanding of Romans Chapter five carefully comparing several English translations would be a very good exercise. The omission of the definite article "the" in Rom. 5:15 before the word "many" in some translations has caused some great misunderstanding of this most important chapter of the Bible.)
- If Hell is real and everlasting, why does Psalm 30:5 say His anger is but for a moment?
- If Hell is real one would never know it by the actions of most Christians. They go through life pretty much like atheists, pagans, etc. If they really believed in Hell, they would spend their entire life trying to snatch their friends and relatives from the burning flames. If Hell is real, why don't they do this?
If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible? Why is the word "Hell"
Hades probably would have been a better word than hell in the Bible, however both the old and new testaments use words for hades.
Old Testament Hebrew (used 31 times)
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
New Testament Greek (used 10 times)
hadēs
hah'-dace
(as a negative particle) and ; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
Where is hades? Who is there and why?
You criticize Christians for not working hard to see folks saved from, "hell" on 1 hand and then you criticize those who do work hard as being self glorifying and self serving on the other. You really need to get over your bitterness and hatred so you can see clearly.
Its like I figured right from the beginning of this thread, you're problem is with people and organized religion. You spent so much time around counterfeit Christians that you just don't really believe much of anything any more.
The thing about counterfeits though, they are proof of the genuine article.
5stringJeff
08-04-2009, 05:33 PM
I think - pertaining to the sheep and the goats - the context of Aion is quite clear.
Christ is separating the nations, not individuals, and it's clear form the context he's judging them on their works towards his believers.
The entire parable has nothing to do with salvation so the context that those who didn't do the good works towards the "least of his brethren" go into some sort of age-lasting correction.
The Greek word Ethnos is alternately translated "Gentiles" and "nations" throughout the NT. However, nowhere in the context of this passage is a reference made to nations as a group. This is clearly a judgment of individuals. It is preceded by two parables (the Wise and Foolish Virgins, and the Parable of the Talents) that deal explicitly with individual behavior. Moreover, Christ describes the performing (or lack therof) of individual actions at the judgment: feeding the hungry, offering water to the thirsty, visiting the sick and prisoners, clothing the needy. Nations don't do these things; individuals do. Therefore, it is clear tht Jesus is referring to judgments of individuals, not groups. It is further clear that, just as Jesus grants eternal life to the righteous, He will judge the unrighteous to eternal punishment.
Additionally, you can't ignore:
The Greek word for punishment here [Mt. 25:46] is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.
'Kolasis' is derived from 'kolazo,' which can mean 'to prune.' However, 'kolazo' is translated "punishment" in 2 Peter 2:9, and "punish" in Acts 4:29. When Jesus talked about 'pruning branches' in John 15, he used a different word: 'kathairo.' So while in Greek literature, 'kolazo' might have meant pruning, Jesus did not use it as such; he used 'kathairo' to refer to pruning, and 'kolasis' to refer to punishment.
chesswarsnow
08-05-2009, 08:52 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. Just heard on tv, that a man who shot up the place at that gym, yesterday, up east, had some of CP's beliefs.
2. Claimed that after he had died, while killing a bunch of people, he was headed striaght off to see Jesus and God.
3. Made some statements on his blog, how sinners of any kind get a free get out of hell card.
4. Scary there are people whom believe this stuff, and I wonder if CP had some how inspired this?
5. CP, don't take offense, I thought of you and your words when I heard this.
6. Wait till you hear what he said.
http://georgesodini.com/20090804.htm
"Tetelestai Church in Pittsburgh, PA - "Be Ye Holy, even as I have been Ye holy! Thus saith the lord thy God!", as pastor Rick Knapp would proclaim. Holy shit, religion is a waste. But this guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him. Call him at (724) 325-2655. If no answer there, he should still live at 439 9th Street, Oakmont, PA 15139. In any case, guilt and fear kept me there 13 long years until Nov 2006. I think his crap did the most damage. Their web site: http://www.tetelestai.org. "
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
chesswarsnow
08-05-2009, 09:16 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. He wrote this the day before.
"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them."
2. Same link.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
chesswarsnow
08-05-2009, 10:46 PM
Sorry bout that,
The Greek word Ethnos is alternately translated "Gentiles" and "nations" throughout the NT. However, nowhere in the context of this passage is a reference made to nations as a group. This is clearly a judgment of individuals. It is preceded by two parables (the Wise and Foolish Virgins, and the Parable of the Talents) that deal explicitly with individual behavior. Moreover, Christ describes the performing (or lack therof) of individual actions at the judgment: feeding the hungry, offering water to the thirsty, visiting the sick and prisoners, clothing the needy. Nations don't do these things; individuals do. Therefore, it is clear tht Jesus is referring to judgments of individuals, not groups. It is further clear that, just as Jesus grants eternal life to the righteous, He will judge the unrighteous to eternal punishment.
'Kolasis' is derived from 'kolazo,' which can mean 'to prune.' However, 'kolazo' is translated "punishment" in 2 Peter 2:9, and "punish" in Acts 4:29. When Jesus talked about 'pruning branches' in John 15, he used a different word: 'kathairo.' So while in Greek literature, 'kolazo' might have meant pruning, Jesus did not use it as such; he used 'kathairo' to refer to pruning, and 'kolasis' to refer to punishment.
1. Wow, Jeffro, you do know some stuff my freind.
2. Oh and Happy birthday tomorrow, my friend.:clap:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
5stringJeff
08-07-2009, 04:40 PM
One other thing I thought about:
If universalism is true, then all will eventually go to heaven. However, some will go right away, and some will suffer judgment for some predetermined time.
However, if this is so, then Christ's suffering and death was insufficient for salvation; some people (the unrepentant in life) will have to have both Christ's atonement AND their own suffering in hell/purgatory/wherever in order to be saved. This flatly contradicts Scripture, which says that Christ's death is sufficient:
"For by one offering (i.e. His death) He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Heb 10:14)
"He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Peter 2:24)
chesswarsnow
08-07-2009, 05:46 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. *If*.
2. Its a doctrine that has a loose foundation.
3. I don't put much weight to it.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
One other thing I thought about:
If universalism is true, then all will eventually go to heaven. However, some will go right away, and some will suffer judgment for some predetermined time.
However, if this is so, then Christ's suffering and death was insufficient for salvation; some people (the unrepentant in life) will have to have both Christ's atonement AND their own suffering in hell/purgatory/wherever in order to be saved. This flatly contradicts Scripture, which says that Christ's death is sufficient:
"For by one offering (i.e. His death) He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Heb 10:14)
"He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Peter 2:24)
What mysteriously happens at death making it impossible for God to bring someone to repentance? Has He been stripped of His power? Where does Scripture declare His impotence in the face of death?
Infinite penalty cannot satisfy justice by definition. For at the point at which it satisfies justice, the penalty must end. Because what is infinite cannot end and Scripture affirms just penalty (Col. 3:25; He. 2:2), “just infinite penalty” is self-contradictory. If justice requires infinite penalty, then the following passages are senseless:
♦ Speak comfort to Jerusalem…for she has received from the LORD double for all her sins (Is. 40:2) (See also Jer. 16:18). How can what is infinite be doubled? Whatever led God to double this penalty, one thing is clear: the penalty is measurable and limited.
♦ His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for life; weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning (Ps. 30:5). What possible comfort could “a moment” and “a night” offer anyone tormented by the threat of infinite penalty? It would be a mere mockery. This further suggests that just penalty
is for a limited time.
♦ You render to each according to his work (Ps. 62:12; Ro. 2:5, 6). Penalty “according to his work” is something measurable and unquestionably just. How does infinite penalty accommodate varying levels of guilt? “It shall be more tolerable for Sodom than for you” (Mt. 11:24; Lu. 10:14). Such wording implies the penalty referred to is measurable.
♦ You laid affliction on our backs.…We went through fire…but You brought us to rich fulfillment (Ps. 66:10-12). This penalty was given to bring the sufferer to rich fulfillment; that is, it had a positive purpose. What positive purpose is served by infinite punishment? In addition, would God, the epitome of all
justice and impartiality, inflict purposeful penalty for some and only purposeless for others?
The Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. For He does not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men (La. 3:31-33). Though He causes grief, “yet” there is purpose. What happens to “yet,” when you contemplate infinite penalty? It becomes a meaningless word. “Yet” assures us the penalty is not infinite.
An interesting verse on that:
So Christ saves all men, especially those that believe. What is to be meant by that? How can He especially be a Savior to those who believe? How does He save those who dont believe?
I think I can answer that, to a degree at least.
Christ saves all mankind through the resurrection. All men, believer and non-believer will be saved from death regardless of whether we believe in Christ. Because as one man brought death into this world, so one man shall take it away.
Now Salvation from sin, seems conditioned on Repentence. Because Christ came to save us from our sins, not in our sins. And in order to repent we must believe in Christ and His power.
This guy does a great job of going over this verse:
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One other thing I thought about:
If universalism is true, then all will eventually go to heaven. However, some will go right away, and some will suffer judgment for some predetermined time.
However, if this is so, then Christ's suffering and death was insufficient for salvation; some people (the unrepentant in life) will have to have both Christ's atonement AND their own suffering in hell/purgatory/wherever in order to be saved. This flatly contradicts Scripture, which says that Christ's death is sufficient:
"For by one offering (i.e. His death) He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Heb 10:14)
"He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Peter 2:24)
Who said anyone goes to Heaven? Where is that in scripture?
Christ said, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth” (Matt. 5:5)
The apostle John recorded the following: “And has made them [the saints] unto our God kings and priests: and they [the saints] shall reign on the earth” (Rev. 5:10).
And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God” (Rev. 21:2-3).
Judgment is for CLEANSING...purifying the sin nature. Causing the sinner to repent
Christ's death paid for sin
but it did not remove the sin nature from us all
God's judgments are to purify the sin nature...NOT pay for the sin
The Greek word Ethnos is alternately translated "Gentiles" and "nations" throughout the NT. However, nowhere in the context of this passage is a reference made to nations as a group. This is clearly a judgment of individuals. It is preceded by two parables (the Wise and Foolish Virgins, and the Parable of the Talents) that deal explicitly with individual behavior. Moreover, Christ describes the performing (or lack therof) of individual actions at the judgment: feeding the hungry, offering water to the thirsty, visiting the sick and prisoners, clothing the needy. Nations don't do these things; individuals do. Therefore, it is clear tht Jesus is referring to judgments of individuals, not groups. It is further clear that, just as Jesus grants eternal life to the righteous, He will judge the unrighteous to eternal punishment.
'Kolasis' is derived from 'kolazo,' which can mean 'to prune.' However, 'kolazo' is translated "punishment" in 2 Peter 2:9, and "punish" in Acts 4:29. When Jesus talked about 'pruning branches' in John 15, he used a different word: 'kathairo.' So while in Greek literature, 'kolazo' might have meant pruning, Jesus did not use it as such; he used 'kathairo' to refer to pruning, and 'kolasis' to refer to punishment.
Uh.. it's at the beginning of the parable:
32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
One other thing I thought about:
If universalism is true, then all will eventually go to heaven. However, some will go right away, and some will suffer judgment for some predetermined time.
However, if this is so, then Christ's suffering and death was insufficient for salvation; some people (the unrepentant in life) will have to have both Christ's atonement AND their own suffering in hell/purgatory/wherever in order to be saved. This flatly contradicts Scripture, which says that Christ's death is sufficient:
"For by one offering (i.e. His death) He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Heb 10:14)
"He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Peter 2:24)
Addtionally:
The suffering is internal because of their own prison (conscious) and there is no punishment there is correction
If but one soul were to remain in the power of the devil, death, or hell, to all endless eternity, then the devil, death, and hell would have something to boast of against God.Thus death would not be entirely swallowed up in victory, but always keep something of his sting, and hell would ever more be able to make a scorn of those who would say,"O hell, where is your victory?"Paul Seigvolck,The Everlasting Gospel,1753
If Hell is real, if man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same? (Rom. 12:20,21) Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil? As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?
crin63
11-04-2009, 10:54 AM
If but one soul were to remain in the power of the devil, death, or hell, to all endless eternity, then the devil, death, and hell would have something to boast of against God.Thus death would not be entirely swallowed up in victory, but always keep something of his sting, and hell would ever more be able to make a scorn of those who would say,"O hell, where is your victory?"Paul Seigvolck,The Everlasting Gospel,1753
If Hell is real, if man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same? (Rom. 12:20,21) Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil? As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?
This whole concept of hell is wrong. The devil has nothing to do with hell other than attempts to seduce humankind to do nothing or to reject Christ and end up there. The devil has no power in hell. The devil will be cast into hell and eventually the lake of fire to be tormented, not rule. God created hell and is the one in charge of hell. He sends those who reject His Son there.
Hell is like a holding cell for the guilty who are awaiting final sentencing from the judge. After the crimes that the guilty committed have been rehearsed back to them, sentencing will be carried out which is the lake of fire for all eternity.
God is holy and all sin is a crime committed against Him personally. God the creator cannot lie and cannot sin so its ridiculous to imply that what God does could even possibly be equivalent to what man does or to try and hold God to some standard the we come up with for Him.
This whole concept of hell is wrong. The devil has nothing to do with hell other than attempts to seduce humankind to do nothing or to reject Christ and end up there. The devil has no power in hell. The devil will be cast into hell and eventually the lake of fire to be tormented, not rule. God created hell and is the one in charge of hell. He sends those who reject His Son there.
Hell is like a holding cell for the guilty who are awaiting final sentencing from the judge. After the crimes that the guilty committed have been rehearsed back to them, sentencing will be carried out which is the lake of fire for all eternity.
God is holy and all sin is a crime committed against Him personally. God the creator cannot lie and cannot sin so its ridiculous to imply that what God does could even possibly be equivalent to what man does or to try and hold God to some standard the we come up with for Him.
I used to say the same false things as well...
You know what the sad part of many peoples perception, they can't see that this is all part of Gods plan, not puny men, or satan's plan. If we think for one second that God didn't have a back up plan, just in case Adam and Eve were to blow it, then God wouldn't be everything He says He is through the bible. Our "religion" and screwed up ways of thinking do nothing to change what has been set in motion from the beginning of time. Christians think that God lost the world to satan....that's far from the truth. Just more lies from the father of lies, satan. The amazing thing is, satan has most christians believing it.
Satan doesn't do ANYTHING without God giving him the green light. Satan was created for the very purpose he is serving today...to lie and decieve and destroy. In Genesis, do we not read that God knows both good and evil ? Did God not plant the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden ? Did God not allow "the serpant" into the garden to tempt Adam and Eve ? Unless we think God is a complete idiot, we would have to answer that this was all part of a plan.
I'm amazed at how many think that Eve's eating from the tree was solely her free will at work and that even though God put the tree right in the middle of the garden, made it the most appealing, and sent a talking serpent to temp her, that all that was just huge malfunction God never intended to happen. Not only that, these were the very first two people, the very first, and Eve's disobedience occurs right away. Yet, God never intended it. Amazing.
Pericles
11-05-2009, 02:32 AM
Ya know what I find funny? .
What I find funny, is how people take for granted, that being "saved" is something good or desirable.
Just what does it mean, to be "saved"? What are we being saved for? What are we being saved from? What are we being saved to?
It seems to me that the whole phenomenon of being "saved," serves no purpose. If there's a god, god doesn't - can't - need us, so there's no reason for him to save us (or anything, for that matter).
We can't be saved from the wrong we have done. It is not even in a god's power, to undo the past, to make what has happened not happen.
Just what, exactly, are we being "saved" to? Eternal Felicity? Is that a situation where at the Pearly Gates, everybody gets a happy-helmet that they can't take off? Is it really the best and highest life for man, to be helplessly happy? We all take for granted that living forever would be a good thing; but maybe eternal life is for the gods, not for mortals. A finite being just couldn't handle it - unless, it was basically a situation where everybody was forced to feel happiness. But that would be a very poor and cramped sort of existence - and it would go on and on, without rest.
Really, are the Gates of Heaven to keep the reprobates out - or to lock the admittees in?
bullypulpit
11-06-2009, 06:18 AM
Ya know what I find funny? Christians have NO problems saying that "thru one man (Adam- just a regular guy), Sin entered the world" - yet for them to admit that "through one man, (Christ who was God) the whole world is saved"... is nearly impossible....
They say we didn't choose to be born into sin (Adam made that Choice) - so I ask - if that's the case, how can Adams choice be enough to curse us all but that "God's not willing ANY would perish" somehow gets swept under the rug? Isn't God's will (choice) that much more powerful than the choice of Adam?
Am I the only one lost on the "Logic" of evangelicals who believe in only "certain folks" to be saved?
Romans 5 goes into even more detail about the parallel, of how "just as" through the one man everyone fell, "so through" Christ all will be redeemed again. By denying this, they are essentially implying that feeble human Adam had better success wrecking the world than Christ did rectifying it.
First, you are assuming that the dogmatic vision of some evangelicals has a logic beyond that of the circular, self reinforcing logic of their dogma.
Secondly, one must realize, as peoples once did, that the Bible is allegorical and should not be taken literally. The absolutist literalism of modern Christianity is nothing new, and has done more harm to the cause than good, as is the case with any other religion one might care to name.
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