Christian Faiths

[chloe]

As if it is not confusing enough to cypher through the different religions, buddhist, muslim, jewish....and everything else, christians have all these different categories and each group thinks they are the true christian, baptist, catholic, mormon, methodist, lutheran, presbyterian.

They dont seem to interpret or agree about the basic bible stories that even non-religious people have heard. So is being a Christian simply that you believe Jesus is the Savior, the son of God or God?

To be Christian do you have to be a member of a church or just have that belief about Jesus. Also do you need to reflect your belief in your daily life or just say you believe it and thats good enough?

[PostmodernProphet]

there is a story in the Bible about a guy who spent his whole life doing wrong, to the point that the government sentenced him to the worst known punishment they had......he never attended a church, he never memorized a scripture verse, he never studied a doctrine.....on the day he died he acknowledged Christ as God and Jesus said "This day you will be with me in paradise"......

{by the way, I think you have overstated the differences between the various denominations.....the fact that certain groups gather together because they are more comfortable with their shared beliefs doesn't necessarily mean that they disagree on the "basic bible stories".....}

[chloe]

there is a story in the Bible about a guy who spent his whole life doing wrong, to the point that the government sentenced him to the worst known punishment they had......he never attended a church, he never memorized a scripture verse, he never studied a doctrine.....on the day he died he acknowledged Christ as God and Jesus said "This day you will be with me in paradise"......

{by the way, I think you have overstated the differences between the various denominations.....the fact that certain groups gather together because they are more comfortable with their shared beliefs doesn't necessarily mean that they disagree on the "basic bible stories".....}

well that may true I haven't gone to all the religions to know if they agree on the basic bible stories. why have they divided up into different christian religions if they agree on the basic stories and the foundation is the same?

[avatar4321]

there is a story in the Bible about a guy who spent his whole life doing wrong, to the point that the government sentenced him to the worst known punishment they had......he never attended a church, he never memorized a scripture verse, he never studied a doctrine.....on the day he died he acknowledged Christ as God and Jesus said "This day you will be with me in paradise"......

{by the way, I think you have overstated the differences between the various denominations.....the fact that certain groups gather together because they are more comfortable with their shared beliefs doesn't necessarily mean that they disagree on the "basic bible stories".....}

Really? I was unaware that there was any more to the story than what Christ said to him. Where did you find all this background information?

[PostmodernProphet]

Really? I was unaware that there was any more to the story than what Christ said to him. Where did you find all this background information?

common sense....he was being crucified, which was an exceptional punishment under Roman law....they wouldn't have bothered with that if all he had done was steal a loaf of bread....he had to have ranked among the worst.....

and, since there weren't any churches or doctrines on the day of Christ's death, well?........

[PostmodernProphet]

well that may true I haven't gone to all the religions to know if they agree on the basic bible stories. why have they divided up into different christian religions if they agree on the basic stories and the foundation is the same?

the divisions are generally based upon things that are not pertinent to salvation.......things like who runs the church (Catholic - pope, Protestant - congregation), whether you have baptism at birth and profession of faith at maturity or confirmation at birth and baptism at maturity, transubstantiation/consubstantiation, premillenial/postmillenial, etc........people on both sides of all those issues believe that Jesus is God and died to save their sins......

the trend over the last fifty years or so has been a lessening of the differences....even in traditional worship services on a typical Sunday you won't see that much difference between a Lutheran or a Methodist or a Baptist service......and if you attend what is a more contemporary service you won't see much difference between a Catholic and a Mormon one......

[chloe]

the divisions are generally based upon things that are not pertinent to salvation.......things like who runs the church (Catholic - pope, Protestant - congregation), whether you have baptism at birth and profession of faith at maturity or confirmation at birth and baptism at maturity, transubstantiation/consubstantiation, premillenial/postmillenial, etc........people on both sides of all those issues believe that Jesus is God and died to save their sins......

the trend over the last fifty years or so has been a lessening of the differences....even in traditional worship services on a typical Sunday you won't see that much difference between a Lutheran or a Methodist or a Baptist service......and if you attend what is a more contemporary service you won't see much difference between a Catholic and a Mormon one......

I don't think I have ever been to a catholic one, I went to an offshoot of catholic church once the girl who took me was episcopalian and I remember them going up and kneeling down and getting something put on there tongue. The girl that took me said I couldnt do that because I wasn't a member.

I have visited baptist churches, the bapstist sing alot and then the leader tells a story and then in between there is a lot of singing, I love gospel music.

In the mormon church the service is 3 hours long you have primary, sacrament, relief society and some kind of study classroom I don't know what they call it. Relief society was the most fun (sacrament was sometimes boring). Relief society is only for women and it is like a giant group therapy with women and heavenly father, a great support system. I think mormons have a completely different belief then catholic, but Im not an expert on catholics. I don't think they have the same belief about the afterlife, and I dont think there story about adam & eve is the same either.

Also I have had some Baptists tell me that mormons are satan worshippers in disguise and also that catholics think if they confess there sin they dont really have to reform because thats what confessions for.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. Being Catholic is the way.
2. The truth.
3. And the life.
4. CWN recomends it.:thumb:

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Kathianne]

As if it is not confusing enough to cypher through the different religions, buddhist, muslim, jewish....and everything else, christians have all these different categories and each group thinks they are the true christian, baptist, catholic, mormon, methodist, lutheran, presbyterian. Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian are all 'Christian.'


They dont seem to interpret or agree about the basic bible stories that even non-religious people have heard. So is being a Christian simply that you believe Jesus is the Savior, the son of God or God?

To be Christian do you have to be a member of a church or just have that belief about Jesus. Also do you need to reflect your belief in your daily life or just say you believe it and thats good enough?

My lessons say that accepting Jesus and His teachings are the bottom line of Christianity. I guess I'm probably a historicalphobe, in the sense I believe the closer one gets to the 'beginning', the more on the mark one is. I'm not too keen on the 'new interpretations' of the Bible, as anyone can see from my posts.

I'm the same with American history, I'm more comfortable with the original documents and the artifacts that were precursors, than with what has been purported to be 'new facts' in recent years.

[chloe]

Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian are all 'Christian.'

My lessons say that accepting Jesus and His teachings are the bottom line of Christianity. I guess I'm probably a historicalphobe, in the sense I believe the closer one gets to the 'beginning', the more on the mark one is. I'm not too keen on the 'new interpretations' of the Bible, as anyone can see from my posts.

I'm the same with American history, I'm more comfortable with the original documents and the artifacts that were precursors, than with what has been purported to be 'new facts' in recent years.

kathianne I agree with that, I think artifacts and historical evidence really gives validity to the ancient stories told. I believe in God and most of the famous bible stories, I just have never joined a religion.

[Kathianne]

kathianne I agree with that, I think artifacts and historical evidence really gives validity to the ancient stories told. I believe in God and most of the famous bible stories, I just have never joined a religion.

Chloe, I don't think one needs to be 'in the church' to be a believer, though for most it's easier. What I find appalling are those that claim to be of the church, but condemn anyone that do not see the church as they do. Does that mean that one can reconcile abortion, capital punishment, etc., while claiming to be Christian? I will leave that to God. My tendency would be to say '(S)He'd disagree with, but it's not my station to fill.

[chloe]

Chloe, I don't think one needs to be 'in the church' to be a believer, though for most it's easier. What I find appalling are those that claim to be of the church, but condemn anyone that do not see the church as they do. Does that mean that one can reconcile abortion, capital punishment, etc., while claiming to be Christian? I will leave that to God. My tendency would be to say '(S)He'd disagree with, but it's not my station to fill.

Im against abortion, but I don't mind putting a serial killer to death, the history channel supports there was a Jesus. I think that if you live your life being moral as best as you can and are kind, giving, responsible, dutiful & faithful that you dont have to be a religion. But I do love learning about all the religions and periodically I will visit a church when I don't have to work that day. I have found that some people who are religious seem to have a mean streak or lack empathy. I don't mean false liberal enabling empathy, I mean showing mercy & understanding.

[Kathianne]

Im against abortion, but I don't mind putting a serial killer to death, the history channel supports there was a Jesus. I think that if you live your life being moral as best as you can and are kind, giving, responsible, dutiful & faithful that you dont have to be a religion. But I do love learning about all the religions and periodically I will visit a church when I don't have to work that day. I have found that some people who are religious seem to have a mean streak or lack empathy. I don't mean false liberal enabling empathy, I mean showing mercy & understanding.

I agree with what I bolded of your post. Too many that consider themselves Christians have little tolerance of those they think 'stray.' Yet, Christ had an abundance of tolerance, whether for the harlot, the gambler, or the tax collector. In the mainstream or not, forgiveness and not judging were the rule. That's what I learned. It's 'God's prerogative' to judge, not mine.

[avatar4321]

common sense....he was being crucified, which was an exceptional punishment under Roman law....they wouldn't have bothered with that if all he had done was steal a loaf of bread....he had to have ranked among the worst.....

and, since there weren't any churches or doctrines on the day of Christ's death, well?........

Really? because I dont see how that is common sense. Because Christ was crucified. And He did absolutely nothing wrong at all. Why would it then be unlikely that those who did something wrong was crucified if all he did was only steal a loaf of bread? We know nothing of him except he was a thief. He obviously knew who Christ was. He has to have heard someone preach the Gospel or how else would He know? Maybe He was baptized and believed and then hard times hit and he did something stupid. We dont know anything about Him.

[PostmodernProphet]

Because Christ was crucified. And He did absolutely nothing wrong at all.
crucifixion was still an exceptional punishment....

[Obey Obey Obey]

I agree with what I bolded of your post. Too many that consider themselves Christians have little tolerance of those they think 'stray.' Yet, Christ had an abundance of tolerance, whether for the harlot, the gambler, or the tax collector. In the mainstream or not, forgiveness and not judging were the rule. That's what I learned. It's 'God's prerogative' to judge, not mine.

All righteous folks judge. We judge everyday. Jesus say not judge on appearance but judge righteous judgment. To an earlier point you made about methodist, catholics and presbies are all Christian. As long as Jesus is the only way(John 14:6) Jesus is God(John 10:30) and trinity is taught we are part of the same family. The Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Unitarians and many other new age religions do not teach the deity of Christ. We cannot be lumped in with those that practice the doctrines of devils.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnGOU3K4iTk

[gabosaurus]

You realize, of course, that if Jesus came back tomorrow, He would live in California. He would spend His free time surfing, playing rock guitar and picking up chicks. :p

[Mr. P]

You realize, of course, that if Jesus came back tomorrow, He would live in California. He would spend His free time surfing, playing rock guitar and picking up chicks. :p

No way, Gab. He'd cut California loose to sink in the pacific then come to Georgia to fish. He likes to fish and the trout are biting here.

[Obey Obey Obey]

You realize, of course, that if Jesus came back tomorrow, He would live in California. He would spend His free time surfing, playing rock guitar and picking up chicks. :p

If you only knew the benefits of walking in the Spirit, you would not make such blasphemous farts out of your mouth. You should stay up tonight wondering why God did not elect you before the foundation of the earth. You live in a great place. You are not like half the world living on 2 bucks a day. You should be thankful to God for all He has done for you rather than being a God hater. You should read the Bible on your own without an agenda and look at it as a juror would look at evidence if you were innocent of the crime you are charged with. Other than that I will not share my faith with you because I am judging you to be a dog or swine as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 7:6(where it says do not cast your pearls before swine and dogs lest they trample you) Matthew 7:6 is right after judge not in hypocrisy, remove your hypocrisy and then remove thy beam out of thy brother's eye(to judge)

[gabosaurus]

Proof that Jesus was never married. Courtesy of the late Sam Kinison.

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[Obey Obey Obey]

Proof that Jesus was never married. Courtesy of the late Sam Kinison.

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Where is Sam now? Don't get me wrong, I appreciated his comedic genius just as I appreciated Bill Hicks. The truth is both comics are in Hell and greeted George Carlin a while ago when that jack ass split Hell wide open. I said the sinner's prayer at age 28 and meant it but that does not mean a thing. It is when you get regenerated that counts. I said the sinners prayer in 1990. I got regenerated in 2004 at the age of 42. Most Christians(so called) go to Hell with you. That is just the facts Ma'am.(matthew 7:13-14)

[chloe]

Where is Sam now? Don't get me wrong, I appreciated his comedic genius just as I appreciated Bill Hicks. The truth is both comics are in Hell and greeted George Carlin a while ago when that jack ass split Hell wide open. I said the sinner's prayer at age 28 and meant it but that does not mean a thing. It is when you get regenerated that counts. I said the sinners prayer in 1990. I got regenerated in 2004 at the age of 42. Most Christians(so called) go to Hell with you. That is just the facts Ma'am.(matthew 7:13-14)

What's the sinners prayer? You still liked those comedians even though they were so sinful there in hell now, how is that supporting God the way you say everyone should ? I would think you should hate those comedians just based on the way you pontificate your christian beliefs here.

[Obey Obey Obey]

What's the sinners prayer? You still liked those comedians even though they were so sinful there in hell now, how is that supporting God the way you say everyone should ? I would think you should hate those comedians just based on the way you pontificate your christian beliefs here.

Your opinion means nothing. God's opinion means everything.

[chloe]

Your opinion means nothing. God's opinion means everything.

I get that but you said God hates sinners and if those comedians are in hell then by your own words God hates them which means you should hate them too right?

[Sparrow Hawk]

You realize, of course, that if Jesus came back tomorrow, He would live in California. He would spend His free time surfing, playing rock guitar and picking up chicks. :p
That is a blasphemous insult.Shame on you.Repent!

[avatar4321]

That is a blasphemous insult.Shame on you.Repent!

If it was that easy to get Gabby to change, don't you think we would have done it years ago?

[Gaffer]

Perhaps gabby will open her eyes and look at the difference between obe and awk and all the other conservatives. It's really quite easy to see the difference. These two are true haters. It takes an excessive amount of dumbing down to get people to this level of hatred and ignorance. Gabby's ilk wishes to dumb down the country to control it, not realizing the backlash will instill religious fanaticism into those people as they seek a supreme being to throw off the yoke of suppression. Thus creating more awk's and obe's.

It's easy to see the extent of their hate, much like the muslims. Stand against them and you are a infidel. Speak against them and you are blasphemous.

They do not represent any part of conservatism. They are much more aligned with islam than anything else. Same mentality and it takes a really ignorant person to be drawn into that mentality or just plain hateful.

Every potential dictator needs a minority to persecute. awk and obe are here to perpetrate the hatred toward queers. Pretending to be conservatives and christians because that is the most likely group to recruit from. While liberals like gabby skip merrily down the road behind her dark lord like a true lemming not caring that the road ends suddenly at a very steep cliff.

[Obey Obey Obey]

Perhaps gabby will open her eyes and look at the difference between obe and awk and all the other conservatives. It's really quite easy to see the difference. These two are true haters. It takes an excessive amount of dumbing down to get people to this level of hatred and ignorance. Gabby's ilk wishes to dumb down the country to control it, not realizing the backlash will instill religious fanaticism into those people as they seek a supreme being to throw off the yoke of suppression. Thus creating more awk's and obe's.

It's easy to see the extent of their hate, much like the muslims. Stand against them and you are a infidel. Speak against them and you are blasphemous.

They do not represent any part of conservatism. They are much more aligned with islam than anything else. Same mentality and it takes a really ignorant person to be drawn into that mentality or just plain hateful.

Every potential dictator needs a minority to persecute. awk and obe are here to perpetrate the hatred toward queers. Pretending to be conservatives and christians because that is the most likely group to recruit from. While liberals like gabby skip merrily down the road behind her dark lord like a true lemming not caring that the road ends suddenly at a very steep cliff.

By your standard we are haters. Your standard is the world's standard.

[Gaffer]

By your standard we are haters. Your standard is the world's standard.

Well, good to see the rest of the world is with me.

While I respect the other Christians on this board and don't get into religious discussions with them, I do love to tear into psuedo-christians like yourself. You ignorance of life and even the scriptures is astounding at times and can only be matched by the liberals that post here with their worship of the dark lord.

You would make a good muslim with your quoting the scriptures to justify your hatred. I'm sure you would have no qualms about maiming and killing people in the name of your god.

[PostmodernProphet]

By your standard we are haters. Your standard is the world's standard.

actually, I expect you are haters by God's standard too....

[darin]

If you only knew the benefits of walking in the Spirit, you would not make such blasphemous farts out of your mouth. You should stay up tonight wondering why God did not elect you before the foundation of the earth. You live in a great place. You are not like half the world living on 2 bucks a day. You should be thankful to God for all He has done for you rather than being a God hater. You should read the Bible on your own without an agenda and look at it as a juror would look at evidence if you were innocent of the crime you are charged with. Other than that I will not share my faith with you because I am judging you to be a dog or swine as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 7:6(where it says do not cast your pearls before swine and dogs lest they trample you) Matthew 7:6 is right after judge not in hypocrisy, remove your hypocrisy and then remove thy beam out of thy brother's eye(to judge)

you have never been in the spirit - not the Holy Spirit. You've been in the flesh and perhaps OTHER spirits...but you know nothing of God. Please repent of your hatred and find Peace through the prince of peace.

[Obey Obey Obey]

you have never been in the spirit - not the Holy Spirit. You've been in the flesh and perhaps OTHER spirits...but you know nothing of God. Please repent of your hatred and find Peace through the prince of peace.

You are a prideful idiot. What I said was true. You are like a racist with your jack ass pride. If I was black and innocent of a crime back in the early 60's you could not search for truth. You cannot do it today(search for truth) even though you have been programmed to give the black man an extra search for reasonable doubt. Your thoughts are not your own. You have nil discernment. You are a moron and a prideful jackass. You will go to Hell unless you take care of this issue. I am serious. You are in danger jack ass. Live long dummy and if you make it big, it is not because of God. It is because God did not select you to his kingdom. Your avatar reeks of pride. Like I said, live long and drive carefully. When you die, you will go to Hell. No doubt today. Tommorow? who knows? I would not place a bet though. After all you are a jack ass.

[Nukeman]

You are a prideful idiot. What I said was true. You are like a racist with your jack ass pride. If I was black and innocent of a crime back in the early 60's you could not search for truth. You cannot do it today(search for truth) even though you have been programmed to give the black man an extra search for reasonable doubt. Your thoughts are not your own. You have nil discernment. You are a moron and a prideful jackass. You will go to Hell unless you take care of this issue. I am serious. You are in danger jack ass. Live long dummy and if you make it big, it is not because of God. It is because God did not select you to his kingdom. Your avatar reeks of pride. Like I said, live long and drive carefully. When you die, you will go to Hell. No doubt today. Tommorow? who knows? I would not place a bet though. After all you are a jack ass.

HOW telling that the one who proclaimes to be a man of God is SOOOOOO quick to judge and name call. How very "judgemental" of you!!! Is that one of your vaulted Godly principles......???????? That and the name calling. remember, just because you don't say it God knows what is in YOUR heart!!!!!!

[Obey Obey Obey]

HOW telling that the one who proclaimes to be a man of God is SOOOOOO quick to judge and name call. How very "judgemental" of you!!! Is that one of your vaulted Godly principles......???????? That and the name calling. remember, just because you don't say it God knows what is in YOUR heart!!!!!!
Are you legally retarded? I was going to set you straight but I felt that if you are legally retarded, you deserve compassion.

[Nukeman]

Are you legally retarded? I was going to set you straight but I felt that if you are legally retarded, you deserve compassion.Actuall quite the contrary!!! YOU seem to be missing the one thing. Treat others as you wish to be treated......



Matthew 7:12

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets


So you just keep on acting like and ass and I and other will continue to treat you as an ASS!!!!!!!

[Nukeman]

Since O.O.O is one to quote scripture he should be VERY familiar with this one..

Romans 2:1-16 (New International Version)


1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.[/U]

pay attention to the bolded parts........

[Obey Obey Obey]

Since O.O.O is one to quote scripture he should be VERY familiar with this one..

Romans 2:1-16 (New International Version)


1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.[/U]

pay attention to the bolded parts........

Please do not reply to me anymore. I have much compassion for your mental issues. I do not read the NIV since they take out verses and change the meaning. I have one for reference. I suggest you get your hands on a KJV. It is much easier to read with the big letters. Why does the NIV insist on printing small? The KJV was created from the Bible from Antioch Syria. The rest were made from cursed Egypt(midnight in Egypt ring a bell?) which are all fag catholic bibles.

[avatar4321]

Since O.O.O is one to quote scripture he should be VERY familiar with this one..

Romans 2:1-16 (New International Version)


1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.[/U]

pay attention to the bolded parts........

You know, Ive read that scripture about a million times, but I dont think Ive ever noticed that it says what it says till you cited it. I mean Ive always lived by those principles. But this source is just amazingly direct. Thank you.

Side note: I think that's the perfect example of the Spirit at work. The Spirit edifies and uplifts. I read those scriptures and was uplifted and edified and understood its meaning.

Now if the scripture is twisted and used for some unholy purpose or principle without the Spirit, its darkness.

The Spirit is truth and light. Not darkness, confusion, division etc.

[Nukeman]

Please do not reply to me anymore. I have much compassion for your mental issues. I do not read the NIV since they take out verses and change the meaning. I have one for reference. I suggest you get your hands on a KJV. It is much easier to read with the big letters. Why does the NIV insist on printing small? The KJV was created from the Bible from Antioch Syria. The rest were made from cursed Egypt(midnight in Egypt ring a bell?) which are all fag catholic bibles.

Just for you and your judgemental self!!! I will not judge you but I will point out your hypocriticle lies.....

Please do tell why you feel I have "mental issues". Are you judging me????? AGAIN!?!?!!? Or is that you have no reply to this simple fact in God's own words that YOU profess to follow. Do you cherry pick that which you will follow or do you follow ALL the teachings???

Romans 2: 1-16 KJV

The Righteous Judgment of God
2Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [1] 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: [2] 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience [3] also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/B][/B][/I][/B]

I especialy like 5....

YOUR right much more to the point in the KJV. by the way that is what I read while growing up. YOU however seem to have missed the whole point of Christs teachings!!!!

[Obey Obey Obey]

YOU however seem to have missed the whole point of Christs teachings!!!!
Nope, wrong again. So sad. did you get extra vaccinations?

[Nukeman]

You know, Ive read that scripture about a million times, but I dont think Ive ever noticed that it says what it says till you cited it. I mean Ive always lived by those principles. But this source is just amazingly direct. Thank you.

Side note: I think that's the perfect example of the Spirit at work. The Spirit edifies and uplifts. I read those scriptures and was uplifted and edified and understood its meaning.

Now if the scripture is twisted and used for some unholy purpose or principle without the Spirit, its darkness.

The Spirit is truth and light. Not darkness, confusion, division etc.

Thank you Avatar. I do not know if this is in any way helping you in your search. God does work in mysterious ways and when we least expect him to..

[Nukeman]

Nope, wrong again. So sad. did you get extra vaccinations?
CAn't refute the rest huh???? Typical hate filled blather

Why were you born with a low IQ so feel compelled to bring EVERYONE down to yoru level???

[Obey Obey Obey]

CAn't refute the rest huh???? Typical hate filled blather

Why were you born with a low IQ so feel compelled to bring EVERYONE down to yoru level???
I know Bible and you do not. Whether you are mentally retarded or mentally ill requires compassion on my part and I am praying for you.

[Nukeman]

I know Bible and you do not. Whether you are mentally retarded or mentally ill requires compassion on my part and I am praying for you.I prefer to keep my communion with God on a more person level, I would greatly appreciate if one such as you WOULD NEVER EVER PRAY FOR ME.


Still unable to refute???????

[Obey Obey Obey]

I prefer to keep my communion with God on a more person level, I would greatly appreciate if one such as you WOULD NEVER EVER PRAY FOR ME.


Still unable to refute???????
Wow! you are one angry fag or one angry reprobate(mental)! Take it easy dude. Drink more sodium fluoridated water or something.

[Gaffer]

Wow! you are one angry fag or one angry reprobate(mental)! Take it easy dude. Drink more sodium fluoridated water or something.

As a liberal fagot posing as a right winger, do you prefer men or boys?

The demons are coming for you little man.

[Nukeman]

Wow! you are one angry fag or one angry reprobate(mental)! Take it easy dude. Drink more sodium fluoridated water or something.
Nothing I said was in anger towards you Just the fact that I would prefer to not have myself associated in any way with you with God. I am quite sure my wife of 20 years would disagree with you on the "flaming bundle of sticks" insult you keep throwing out.....

I live on a well system, in the country so no Fluridated water for me try again spiteful, prideful, hateful one....

[Nukeman]

Wow! you are one angry fag or one angry reprobate(mental)! Take it easy dude. Drink more sodium fluoridated water or something.If you would prefer to persue your question with me and my "orientation" please go to pm and I will be happy to give you MY address so you can come right over to discuss it.... I promise it will be very "enlightening" for you

[Gaffer]

Nothing I said was in anger towards you Just the fact that I would prefer to not have myself associated in any way with you with God. I am quite sure my wife of 20 years would disagree with you on the "flaming bundle of sticks" insult you keep throwing out.....

I live on a well system, in the country so no Fluridated water for me try again spiteful, prideful, hateful one....

Wish I could rep you again.

[chloe]

There is enough threads to flame in about religion and sexual orientation please stay on topic with my thread on the differences in christian denominations and whether you have to go to church to be considered saved. Plus I have a lot of questions about religions and the different beliefs so if real religious people dont mind answering them that would be nice. I have struggled so long with trying to understand some things about the being saved concept, Thanks.:cool:

Being saved means that Jesus died on the cross so our sins are forgiven. My issue is that I feel like sinnsers should have to be accountable and take responsiblity for sin, kind of like republicans pay there own bills and don't take handouts. It almost seems liberal to me that Sins are erased, so once your saved what is the motivation to resist sin and to be a good person? For instance what if someone was a terrible letch who hurt and abused there family who tortured animals and tortured people for fun and then one day they decide to join a church but all the pain they caused there family is still there, why should there sin be erased? Especially if they were evil for so long? To me that is kind of conveniant, like racking up a credit card then wanting taxpayers to bail you out.

[PostmodernProphet]

For instance what if someone was a terrible letch who hurt and abused there family who tortured animals and tortured people for fun and then one day they decide to join a church but all the pain they caused there family is still there, why should there sin be erased? Especially if they were evil for so long?

you have two separate things involved there, relationship with fellow man, relationship with God......horrible person, horrible actions......if he repents and becomes restored to God it doesn't mean that his relationship with those who he has injured is miraculously going to be restructured.....if he is truly a believer he has a place in heaven but he may never have a place in his families heart again, depending on how badly he has hurt them.....he's going to have to work at restoring their love and trust....


To me that is kind of conveniant, like racking up a credit card then wanting taxpayers to bail you out.

if that was his intent, his repentance and belief would not likely be genuine....we have no way of knowing, but God does.....

[chloe]

you have two separate things involved there, relationship with fellow man, relationship with God......horrible person, horrible actions......if he repents and becomes restored to God it doesn't mean that his relationship with those who he has injured is miraculously going to be restructured.....if he is truly a believer he has a place in heaven but he may never have a place in his families heart again, depending on how badly he has hurt them.....he's going to have to work at restoring their love and trust....



if that was his intent, his repentance and belief would not likely be genuine....we have no way of knowing, but God does.....

So if a person chooses not to reform and they continue to do really evil acts the kind that makes your stomach turn, and you have been effected all of your life by it, and everyone tells you to forgive that person, seriously I do not understand the concept forgiveness, how can you forgive someone who does not change? Also why would you want to? I think that is why I dont understand the concept of being saved and Jesus dying for our sins. I dont get that because I don't forgive !!! If I knew how to do that then things would probably be a lot better in my life but I am really very angry about things and I dont feel forgiving.

[emmett]

Warning issued to Obey for repetitive sillyness.

Additional Note: Just some advice Obey. You picked the wrong cat man. Nukeman is a well adjusted, intelligent and astute member of our board which after your repeated unsuccessful attempts to raise his dander should have demonstrated for you. He has intellectually "whipped your ass" obviously. I would suggest for the purposes of "time management" that you pick another member to invoke your hate filled rhetoric on. Nuke is just a poor choice in this regard as you will grow old using this methodolgy.

Please understand that I speak from experience in regard to this user. He is far too intelligent, utilizes reason and fact, and doesn't get his hair raised very easily. There are so many more members who would be more receptive to your antics and thereby allow you the pleasure you obviously seek. In my opinion, your method of debate is a waste of time on Nukeman. He just isn;t going to bite bro. Frankly...if this was a fight, and I was your cornerman.......I'd pitch in the towel brother so as to spare you further damage to your snout.

TRANSLATED:

Act right or I'll be forced to ban you!

[Nukeman]

So if a person chooses not to reform and they continue to do really evil acts the kind that makes your stomach turn, and you have been effected all of your life by it, and everyone tells you to forgive that person, seriously I do not understand the concept forgiveness, how can you forgive someone who does not change? Also why would you want to? I think that is why I dont understand the concept of being saved and Jesus dying for our sins. I dont get that because I don't forgive !!! If I knew how to do that then things would probably be a lot better in my life but I am really very angry about things and I dont feel forgiving.There is a BIG difference between "forgiving" and "forgeting". YOU can forgive someone or thier actions but you don't have to forget about what they did.

[Nukeman]

here's a story i heard as a young teenager.

There was a young man who was getting more and more out of control, his parents were at thier wits end. They had tried to get their son to understand the sacrifices that Jesus had made for him but he continued to rebel.

His father decided to punish his son for every time he disobeyed and did something wrong.

What he had him do was place a nail in his wall EVERY time. His son didn't think this was all that bad since he wasn't really being punished, except every time a friend came over he had to explain why he had bare nails in the wall. After a while the child became embarassed of all the nails in the wall and he asked his father what he needed to do in order to get rid of all the nails. his father told how he expected him to act and behave. His son asked for his forgiveness and became a very good person.

Once his father saw that he had truely changed he allowed him to pull out all the nails from the wall. After removing all the nails the boy noticed that there were now a bunch of holes in the wall where the nails once were. He asked his father what he was to do about those. His father said that although he had forgiven him of his transgressions the scar was still on his heart.

Much as we like to think that all is forgiven we must remember that it is not forgotten. We all need to keep this in mind always!!

[crin63]

the divisions are generally based upon things that are not pertinent to salvation.......things like who runs the church (Catholic - pope, Protestant - congregation), whether you have baptism at birth and profession of faith at maturity or confirmation at birth and baptism at maturity, transubstantiation/consubstantiation, premillenial/postmillenial, etc........people on both sides of all those issues believe that Jesus is God and died to save their sins......

the trend over the last fifty years or so has been a lessening of the differences....even in traditional worship services on a typical Sunday you won't see that much difference between a Lutheran or a Methodist or a Baptist service......and if you attend what is a more contemporary service you won't see much difference between a Catholic and a Mormon one......

I tend to disagree with you on this one. The issue is Salvation and the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Although many of the religions claim to embrace Jesus for salvation it is only lip service so to speak. Many believe that they can be saved by some act that they personally perform such as doing good deeds, eating some crackers, praying, confessing, being baptized and etc.

There is only one way in which the lost are saved. They must come to Jesus Christ by faith given to them by God. Jesus said no man can come to Him except the Father which sent Him draw the person to Him.

But for them to reach that point there are some basic facts they need to know. They have to actually know who Jesus really is so they aren't coming to Jes'us. That He is the eternal sinless Son-of-God, the 2nd person of the triune Godhead, that He condescended to take on a human body through the virgin birth, that He lived and died sinless on this earth, was unjustly crucified bearing their sins, buried and rose again on the 3rd day bodily and has now ascended to the right hand of God on high. He is the God-man, the only mediator between God and man.
They also have to realize that they are depraved, lost in their sins with no other hope outside of Jesus.
Salvation means being saved, but only a drowning man (in his sins) really believes he needs to be saved and will only come to Christ once he has come to see himself as sinful, with no hope except coming to Jesus by faith believing.


Where is Sam now? Don't get me wrong, I appreciated his comedic genius just as I appreciated Bill Hicks. The truth is both comics are in Hell and greeted George Carlin a while ago when that jack ass split Hell wide open. I said the sinner's prayer at age 28 and meant it but that does not mean a thing. It is when you get regenerated that counts. I said the sinners prayer in 1990. I got regenerated in 2004 at the age of 42. Most Christians(so called) go to Hell with you. That is just the facts Ma'am.(matthew 7:13-14)

What do you mean by regenerated? How did you become regenerated?


All righteous folks judge. We judge everyday. Jesus say not judge on appearance but judge righteous judgment. To an earlier point you made about methodist, catholics and presbies are all Christian. As long as Jesus is the only way(John 14:6) Jesus is God(John 10:30) and trinity is taught we are part of the same family. The Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Unitarians and many other new age religions do not teach the deity of Christ. We cannot be lumped in with those that practice the doctrines of devils.

This is patently false. God has already judged man to be condemned by their sins. Actual Christians are only pointing out the facts of the judgement God has already decreed in the hopes that people will turn from their sins. It is not a Christian being judgmental when he points out peoples sins or explain the judgment God has already passed on mankind if they don't come to Christ. It is also not hypocritical for a Christian to point out sins because an actual Christian has already agreed with God about his own personal sinful and depraved being.



There is a BIG difference between "forgiving" and "forgeting". YOU can forgive someone or thier actions but you don't have to forget about what they did.

I disagree. If you are going to apply Biblical standards then the offense has to be forgotten if forgiveness has been granted. Not that it is easy for us to do.

[PostmodernProphet]

So if a person chooses not to reform and they continue to do really evil acts the kind that makes your stomach turn, and you have been effected all of your life by it, and everyone tells you to forgive that person, seriously I do not understand the concept forgiveness, how can you forgive someone who does not change? Also why would you want to? I think that is why I dont understand the concept of being saved and Jesus dying for our sins. I dont get that because I don't forgive !!! If I knew how to do that then things would probably be a lot better in my life but I am really very angry about things and I dont feel forgiving.

I don't believe even God forgives if there is no repentance.....and I can't expect there has been repentance if there is no change in behavior......the Bible says "faith without works is dead".....so the question becomes, if we are saved through faith, can we be saved with dead faith?.....probably not.....

we don't know for sure what is going on in a person's heart, but their actions tend to give us evidence......

[PostmodernProphet]

Many believe that they can be saved by some act that they personally perform such as doing good deeds, eating some crackers, praying, confessing, being baptized and etc.

there may be some individuals who think and act that way, but I am not aware of any denominations that TEACH that.....and I have studied the theology of a lot of different denominations......that is one of the things that puzzle me about our two recent arrivals....I am not aware of ANY Christian denomination that teaches what they are posting......and yes, I am familiar with the Reformed Baptists.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I disagree. If you are going to apply Biblical standards then the offense has to be forgotten if forgiveness has been granted. Not that it is easy for us to do.

if we were God we would probably be able to pull it off.....but obviously,

[emmett]

I tend to disagree with you on this one. The issue is Salvation and the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Although many of the religions claim to embrace Jesus for salvation it is only lip service so to speak. Many believe that they can be saved by some act that they personally perform such as doing good deeds, eating some crackers, praying, confessing, being baptized and etc.

There is only one way in which the lost are saved. They must come to Jesus Christ by faith given to them by God. Jesus said no man can come to Him except the Father which sent Him draw the person to Him.

But for them to reach that point there are some basic facts they need to know. They have to actually know who Jesus really is so they aren't coming to Jes'us. That He is the eternal sinless Son-of-God, the 2nd person of the triune Godhead, that He condescended to take on a human body through the virgin birth, that He lived and died sinless on this earth, was unjustly crucified bearing their sins, buried and rose again on the 3rd day bodily and has now ascended to the right hand of God on high. He is the God-man, the only mediator between God and man.
They also have to realize that they are depraved, lost in their sins with no other hope outside of Jesus.
Salvation means being saved, but only a drowning man (in his sins) really believes he needs to be saved and will only come to Christ once he has come to see himself as sinful, with no hope except coming to Jesus by faith believing.



What do you mean by regenerated? How did you become regenerated?



This is patently false. God has already judged man to be condemned by their sins. Actual Christians are only pointing out the facts of the judgement God has already decreed in the hopes that people will turn from their sins. It is not a Christian being judgmental when he points out peoples sins or explain the judgment God has already passed on mankind if they don't come to Christ. It is also not hypocritical for a Christian to point out sins because an actual Christian has already agreed with God about his own personal sinful and depraved being.




I disagree. If you are going to apply Biblical standards then the offense has to be forgotten if forgiveness has been granted. Not that it is easy for us to do.


I did not reference these statements properly to show what they were in reaction to. My apology.

My point is to show how crin explains his answers. They are uniform and make very good sense. I always appreciate the way i see his explanations spelled out for the common folk like myself. Crin...I really believe your calling sir is to do exactly this.

In the statement made by Obey Obey Obey or hawk or which ever one it was as to how Unitarians are not in accordance with true Christian beliefs as I interpreted it, I disagree also. This is always the biggest problem I have had with "organized" religion. I know there are different beliefs but to say that a good clean living person who happens to attend a small unitarian church in the country somewhere is "less" of a Christian than someone who attends a particular section of the church is very far from the truth in my opinion .

I know a biker preacher, no name mentioned, who travels to nowhere but prisons. He never even attends church. Has not been to one in years. I would dare say that he is not as much a Christian as any preacher i have ever seen. Actually I think more of him for his work. asked what religion he is, he answers...."None". He has no religion. He always has a bible, carrys it with him literally everywhere he goes. Straps iot to his motorcycle seat. While a bit eccentric I admit, the man is one of a kind. He truly believes he is a servant who is obligated to carry the message everywhere. He is humble and gives any praise he recieves to God. He almost ignores it when complimented. I have never heard him condemn a single person, make a negative statement about anyone and always stands firm on his belief that only God can judge. He never waivers. Ever! It is said that he has knelt with more prisoners, theives and murderers than anyone in our state. I have to say as well that he has made an impression on me that no other man of the cloth ever has.

I asked him once what he thought of religions that criticize one another and he replied, "Hopefully they will see no need to continue to do that one day and feel the true spirit of God in their work." Nothing else...just that. No opinions on whether it is right or wrong, no analogies, no criticism......just that statement.

Just though I would stick that in.

[crin63]

there may be some individuals who think and act that way, but I am not aware of any denominations that TEACH that.....and I have studied the theology of a lot of different denominations......that is one of the things that puzzle me about our two recent arrivals....I am not aware of ANY Christian denomination that teaches what they are posting......and yes, I am familiar with the Reformed Baptists.....

I have also studied allot of other religions and that is what I have found if you cut through all the gloss and show to get down to the bottom line. Most Christian religions believe that it is in the power of the person to save them self.
Take praying the sinners prayer for example, praying is an act of righteousness for someone after they are already saved. God says that our sins have separated us from him and that He cannot hear us. Jesus said to pray to God the Father not to Him. There is no example that I am aware of where someone in the Bible said to pray to Jesus for salvation. Jesus said come unto me. If someone holds that praying saves, then they are in essence claiming that it is something they did, an act on their part which saved them, taking away from Christs glory to heep it upon them self. Now I will not discount that some have actually trusted in Jesus while praying but it was not the prayer.

I'm not sure if you were in reference to me but I am a Fundamentalist Baptist unaffiliated with any other organization, group or church other than my own. Thats not to say that we don't do things with other churches though.

[PostmodernProphet]

I know there are different beliefs but to say that a good clean living person who happens to attend a small unitarian church in the country somewhere is "less" of a Christian than someone who attends a particular section of the church is very far from the truth in my opinion .

???...since the Unitarians claim that they don't believe Jesus is the Christ, how could a Unitarian be a "Christian".....shouldn't you at least believe there is a Christ to use his name?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Most Christian religions believe that it is in the power of the person to save them self.
sorry, but I am puzzled....I can't think of any that teach that....the closest I can think of is the Anabaptist argument that humans are responsible for their own salvation because they must accept Christ's offer, but that is more symantics than essence, because it still relies upon Christ's sacrifice on the cross.....



I'm not sure if you were in reference to me but I am a Fundamentalist Baptist unaffiliated with any other organization, group or church other than my own. Thats not to say that we don't do things with other churches though.

no, Sparrow called himself a Reformed Baptist and OOO said he was Calvinist and Reformed, so I expected he might be as well......let me rephrase that....since neither of them speak of religion as I would expect Reformed Baptists to speak I doubt if either of them really are, but they have chosen that denomination as a cover for their sock puppets......I notice they have carefully avoided responding to any of my questions.....

[crin63]

sorry, but I am puzzled....I can't think of any that teach that....the closest I can think of is the Anabaptist argument that humans are responsible for their own salvation because they must accept Christ's offer, but that is more symantics than essence, because it still relies upon Christ's sacrifice on the cross.....



no, Sparrow called himself a Reformed Baptist and OOO said he was Calvinist and Reformed, so I expected he might be as well......let me rephrase that....since neither of them speak of religion as I would expect Reformed Baptists to speak I doubt if either of them really are, but they have chosen that denomination as a cover for their sock puppets......I notice they have carefully avoided responding to any of my questions.....

Let me go at it from a different angle. Infusion of grace. Some believe that if they participate in or partake of enough sacraments that they will be infused with grace and thereby become good enough to merit heaven.

I'm also a Calvanist in addition to being a Fundamental Baptist. In my extra reading I read the Puritans who I think were right on, on the depravity of man. I pretty much don't read anything thats been written in the last 200 years with a few exceptions because Finney tainted so much of Christianity and turned into shake and bake Christianity.

[crin63]

I did not reference these statements properly to show what they were in reaction to. My apology.

My point is to show how crin explains his answers. They are uniform and make very good sense. I always appreciate the way i see his explanations spelled out for the common folk like myself. Crin...I really believe your calling sir is to do exactly this.

In the statement made by Obey Obey Obey or hawk or which ever one it was as to how Unitarians are not in accordance with true Christian beliefs as I interpreted it, I disagree also. This is always the biggest problem I have had with "organized" religion. I know there are different beliefs but to say that a good clean living person who happens to attend a small unitarian church in the country somewhere is "less" of a Christian than someone who attends a particular section of the church is very far from the truth in my opinion .

I know a biker preacher, no name mentioned, who travels to nowhere but prisons. He never even attends church. Has not been to one in years. I would dare say that he is not as much a Christian as any preacher i have ever seen. Actually I think more of him for his work. asked what religion he is, he answers...."None". He has no religion. He always has a bible, carrys it with him literally everywhere he goes. Straps iot to his motorcycle seat. While a bit eccentric I admit, the man is one of a kind. He truly believes he is a servant who is obligated to carry the message everywhere. He is humble and gives any praise he recieves to God. He almost ignores it when complimented. I have never heard him condemn a single person, make a negative statement about anyone and always stands firm on his belief that only God can judge. He never waivers. Ever! It is said that he has knelt with more prisoners, theives and murderers than anyone in our state. I have to say as well that he has made an impression on me that no other man of the cloth ever has.

I asked him once what he thought of religions that criticize one another and he replied, "Hopefully they will see no need to continue to do that one day and feel the true spirit of God in their work." Nothing else...just that. No opinions on whether it is right or wrong, no analogies, no criticism......just that statement.

Just though I would stick that in.

I appreciate that Emmett. I know I don't say enough on here but if I have any ability at all it is only by the grace of God. Although not intended your post did sting a bit, because I don't give God enough direct praise on here.

Reading your post also reminds me of a scripture which the essence is, "Sharp rebukes make strong Christians". Thank you Emmett.

Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

[PostmodernProphet]

Let me go at it from a different angle. Infusion of grace. Some believe that if they participate in or partake of enough sacraments that they will be infused with grace and thereby become good enough to merit heaven.


again, aren't you just talking about what a person here or a person there might argue......which denomination takes as doctrine the idea that you can achieve heaven simply by participating in sacraments.......

[chloe]

There is a BIG difference between "forgiving" and "forgeting". YOU can forgive someone or thier actions but you don't have to forget about what they did.

for·give (fr-gv, fôr-) KEY

VERB:
for·gave (-gv) KEY , for·giv·en (-gvn) KEY , for·giv·ing , for·gives
VERB:
tr.

To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
To renounce anger or resentment against.
To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/forgive


The bold is the part that I don't know how to do.

[chloe]

I don't believe even God forgives if there is no repentance.....and I can't expect there has been repentance if there is no change in behavior......the Bible says "faith without works is dead".....so the question becomes, if we are saved through faith, can we be saved with dead faith?.....probably not.....

we don't know for sure what is going on in a person's heart, but their actions tend to give us evidence......

There is no repentance I can tell you that. The person in question has no remorse and has gone on to commit evil acts towards others. The only thing is now they are old and they are so sick physically they are unable to be violent anymore just mentally abusive. I believe that person in question is mentally insane, and so this is why some relatives stay in touch with him. Yet I don't seem able to overlook the things his mental illness made him do to us. Plus I don't forgive him and I have children and never wanted them to meet him or go through the things I went through. But part of me feels like Im not close to God because of my unwillingness to forgive (to get over my anger resentment and to excuse or pardon the person.) I mean Im not God and I feel guilty for being judgemental. Your supposed to forgive debts right?