To engage the birther fantasists is futile; to dismiss them, reckless

[Noir]

Interesting article from the guardian




[A]s Obama prepares to celebrate his birthday on Tuesday there are others who would suggest that his appearance that night was not just probable but plotted – part of a long-running conspiracy by foreign Muslim forces to take over the United States. In the alternative version, his white grandparents were so displeased at the race of his mother's fiance that his mother fled to Kenya. Once there, she was repulsed by the manner in which Muslim men treated their wives, but was now too pregnant to fly home and so remained in Mombasa, where the heat brought on early labour. A local imam was kind enough to lead the festivities and called the boy Obama.

The details change, but the basic storyline remains the same. Obama should not be president because his occupancy of the White House contravenes article two, section one of the US constitution, which stipulates that only a "natural-born citizen" is eligible for the presidency. He is not just un-American but non-American; a faux candidate foisted on America by way of Mombasa rather than Manchuria. Such are the claims of the American "birther" movement.

The aim here is not prove these people wrong. That has been achieved several times over. For them to be right, Obama would have had to persuade the state of Hawaii to collude in forging a birth certificate that has been verified by its Republican governor and director of health as well as the nonpartisan factcheck.org. Moreover, his mother would have had to have the foresight to place birth announcements claiming he was born in the US in both the Honolulu Advertiser and the Hawaii Star Bulletin, 48 years ago, in anticipation of a future presidential run – otherwise, why bother? When you think of the time and effort that must have gone into this cover-up, Obama's election must go down as the most elaborate affirmative-action sting in US history.

Facts won't budge them. The smart ones insist they are just doing him a favour. "What I don't understand is why he hasn't produced [his birth certificate] to get this noise out of the way." Cutting "legitimate doubt" from whole cloth, they create accusations to which the only defence would be to disprove a negative. (How do we know Obama was not enrolled into a school in Indonesia as Barry Soetoro?) Posing as reasonable people asking reasonable questions, many insist that their interest is not in stoking the controversy, but ending it. "I do believe the president is a citizen of the United States folks, don't you?" asks CNN's resident xenophobe, Lou Dobbs. "But I do have a couple of little questions, like you. Why not just provide a copy of the birth certificate?"

When proof is provided, the inconvenient evidence is denied, parsed, undermined or overlooked. Hawaii has produced a certificate of live birth which it both issues and accepts as proof of citizenship. So the birthers demand his full certificate and claim that the document provided is a fraud. Meanwhile, in the absence of tangible proof, birthers are sustained by claims that are variably random, unsubstantiable, insubstantial, untraceable or incredible – and often all five. In November the grandson of the Kenyan imam who allegedly delivered Obama in Mombasa was reported to be on his way to England to claim asylum because he feared the Kenyan authorities would silence him. Which brings us on to the final, crucial part of the birther identity: victimhood. The leftwing media are hounding them and the government is marginalising them. If you can't say what happened to the grandson of that Kenyan imam you'd never heard of, then how do you know the authorities didn't finish him off? And so they turn banality into controversy, truth into speculation, certainty in doubt and the world on its head. Having made up the news, they demand to know why no one is reporting it.

So why dignify these people with column inches when you could just laugh and move on? If they truly are brain-dead, then surely the oxygen of publicity only keeps their contributions in their present vegetative state. There is something to that. But while to engage them is clearly futile, to dismiss them would be reckless, for two main reasons.

Full article - http://m.guardian.co.uk/?id=102202&story=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/02/obama-birthers-us-presidency

[stephanie]

Funny, they keep saying that they should be ignored, laughed at, blaa, blaa, blaaa.

yet day after day, our own media is taking part in a full court frothing press to try and cover the little Marxist ass on this, for some reason..

why is that you think?

I mean how DARE the Amercian people suggest the President show his long form BC..

WHY WON'T HE??????

[Noir]

Funny, they keep saying that they should be ignored, laughed at, blaa, blaa, blaaa.

yet day after day, our own media is taking part in a full court frothing press to try and cover the little Marxist ass on this, for some reason..

why is that you think?

I mean how DARE the Amercian people suggest the President show his long form BC..

WHY WON'T HE??????

I assume you read the whole artical which covers the medias involvement.

It also, rather ironicly, predicts your response to reading the artical, a prediction that you are falling over yourself to fullfill.

[stephanie]

I assume you read the whole artical which covers the medias involvement.

It also, rather ironicly, predicts your response to reading the artical, a prediction that you are falling over yourself to fullfill.

no I didn't read the whole article, but I read enough to get that they are again putting down the people in it....
and just what the hell did you mean with your last sentence??...

and why should I give a shit what the guardian has to say anyway..

[Noir]

no I didn't read the whole article, but I read enough to get that they are again putting down the people in it....

Well if you didn't read the whole article then how do you expect to discus it?


and just what the hell did you mean with your last sentence??...

it's just quite ironic how you responded to the artical, if you read it all you'll see the irony.


and why should I give a shit what the guardian has to say anyway..

wow, chill yer baps. It's a well respected newspaper, you don't have to care, but to attack the paper rather than the artical is a lil silly no?

[stephanie]

wow, chill yer baps. It's a well respected newspaper, you don't have to care, but to attack the paper rather than the artical is a lil silly no?

what do I care what the guardian has to say..they ought to worry more about the downfall of their country, than sticking their noses into ours:cheers2:..

[Noir]

what do I care what the guardian has to say..they ought to worry more about the downfall of their country, than sticking their noses into ours:cheers2:..

Sorry that they, and their readers, have an interest in countries other than their own. In the same respect I assume that you dint give a shit about my view on topics? Afterall, I shouldn't be sticking my nose in another countries issues.
Also, note again you have attacked the paper not the artical, why don't you pretend the artical is from the WSJ and try and read it without dismissing it through ignorence.

[stephanie]

Sorry that they, and their readers, have an interest in countries other than their own. In the same respect I assume that you dint give a shit about my view on topics? Afterall, I shouldn't be sticking my nose in another countries issues.

I don't care what you do, you know you are welcome here..but when you post something that pisses me off, you will hear about it...
we over here don't stick our noses in your countries business, do we? In fact if anything, the little Marxist has been downright hostile toward yours..
I guess other countries are always so interested in ours, because of all the goodies they can get from us. without us, where would some be now..:cheers2:

[Noir]

I don't care what you do, you know you are welcome here..but when you post something that pisses me off, you will hear about it...
we over here don't stick our noses in your countries business, do we?
I guess other countries are always so interested in ours, because of all the goodies they can get from us. without us, where would some be now..:cheers2:

Well if it pisses you off then be mature enough to debate the article, rather than attack the country of origin of the article.
You may see it as sticking our noses in, we see it as not being ignorent of America, or Russia, or France or Iran ect ect.

[stephanie]

Well if it pisses you off then be mature enough to debate the article, rather than attack the country of origin of the article.
You may see it as sticking our noses in, we see it as not being ignorent of America, or Russia, or France or Iran ect ect.

sweetie pie, there was nothing to debate about that stupid article...sorry
and you dragged me into this, when all I did was post a response to the article, not to anything you said or did, until you responded to my remarks..
so lets get off the high horse...K

[Noir]

Really? So facts like

Obama would have had to persuade the state of Hawaii to collude in forging a birth certificate that has been verified by its Republican governor and director of health as well as the nonpartisan factcheck.org.

or


Moreover, his mother would have had to have the foresight to place birth announcements claiming he was born in the US in both the Honolulu Advertiser and the Hawaii Star Bulletin, 48 years ago

Are surly two talking points that arise from the article. If you can put your prejudices aside.

[stephanie]

Really? So facts like


or



Are surly two talking points that arise from the article. If you can put your prejudices aside.

I've already seen all that and then some...I stand where I stand on this issue..
and it's a good thing you're not standing in front of me and call me a racist..

I'm done with you..

[Noir]

I did not call you a racist. I what I meant by "If you can put your prejudices aside." was that you prejudged the artical because it was from a British newspaper.

I'm just amazed that you think that, with no evidance to prove your thoughts (or atleast none you have been bothered to post) that Obama would have had to persuade the state of Hawaii to collude in forging a birth certificate that has been verified by its Republican governor and director of health as well as the nonpartisan factcheck.org.

[Nukeman]

What it barrels down to is HIS statement that he is for OPEN and HONEST government. Yet something soo simple as producing his BC seems to be beyond him. Also i will add he refuses to disclose his college transcripts. I fully understand that these are "personal" but he is the MOST "public" person on the planet right now.

As for the newspaper announcments it is not uncommon here in the states to post in your local paper where you USED to live so your friends and previous neighbors can keep up with your news so that is a mute point...

I for one don't know what he is attempting to hide, but he is hiding something or do you think he is just a private kind of guy???

As for "persuading the state of Hawaii" it only take one person to enter false information!! Like I said i don't know what he is hiding but it is something!!!!!!!

[stephanie]

listen, you are just rehashing the same ole shit, different day..

If you were around here more, you would see my feelings on this whole Bc thing, is the fact he won't release his long from BC and to what are the reasons for that..

he hasn't released any records from his past, and we want to see them..we know very little about this Marxist, and I wouldn't care if the asshole was yellow with pink polka dots for skin color... we are requesting that he come clean on where he stands...

maybe that will clear some things up for you..if not, oh well

[crin63]

It may be the he is just covering up all his records to hide that he stole scholarship money by claiming to be Indonesian or Kenyan. It may be that he is hiding his past so no one sees how radical he really was. I don't know but he is hiding something for some reason or the records would be made public.

[gabosaurus]

Shouldn't this (and similar topics) belong in the Conspiracy Theories forum? It has as much credence as Bush masterminding the Sept. 11 attacks.

[stephanie]

Shouldn't this (and similar topics) belong in the Conspiracy Theories forum? It has as much credence as Bush masterminding the Sept. 11 attacks.


sure Gabby, the American citizens requesting to see a BC from the President and more of his records from his past... is a friggen conspiracy now..

[Little-Acorn]

To engage the birther fantasists is futile; to dismiss them, reckless

The birthers are hardly fantasists. They are pointing out facts - that there is no concrete evidence of where Barack Obama was born, and very few records of his early life. They also point out that there is at least one eyewitness who claims to have been there when he was born in a foreign country.

In a country that has a requirement that the President of the United States must be a native-born citizen, are you obtuse enough to believe these facts are unimportant?

I don't spend much time on the birth-cert controversy, because I believe it is completely impossible to prove the matter one way or another, as long as Obama continues to hide his long-form BC (as is his right).

As I have mentioned, I believe the most likely explanation for this, is that he is using this to rile his opponents and send them off on wild-goose chases; and if the matter ever comes into court, he or his cohorts will walk into court at the last minute, lay the LFBC on the table, and walk away laughing, leaving the birthers looking at each other.

Next-most-likely explanation, is that he was in fact born in a foreign country, and is doing everything he can to conceal that fact for the duration of his Presidency.

Obama's efforts to conceal so many records, is consonant with either of these explanations. And there is no way to tell which one is the truth. So it's not worth pursuing. Not because the goal (getting an extreme leftist out of office legally) isn't worth achieving, but because the goal is impossible to achieve on this basis.

I prefer to fight issue by issue. One victory is already at hand - Socialized Medicine will not happen in the next several administrations. And that will help diminish the leftists' political capital in a major way, making it much harder for them to achieve the rest of their agenda.

Conservatives must pick their battles. Birthers have picked badly, and are wasting their time, because the Leftists have complete control of that particular issue.

But "fantasists", they aren't. Because they are addressing completely factual, and very alarming, concerns, as I have detailed.

[stephanie]

call it a losing battle, call us all birthers...call it whatever you want..

I REFUSE to be defined again by the leftist and our enemy lamestream media..

it is not so much the BC, as it seems a lot of you can't grasp..it's this Marxist and his cohorts are in the process of pulling the wool over the American people eyes...and just throwing up our hands, again, and say it's a losing battle, so ho hum, is just what they are counting on, and here we go off meekly back into their web..

sheesh

[namvet]

I did not call you a racist. I what I meant by "If you can put your prejudices aside." was that you prejudged the artical because it was from a British newspaper.

I'm just amazed that you think that, with no evidance to prove your thoughts (or atleast none you have been bothered to post) that Obama would have had to persuade the state of Hawaii to collude in forging a birth certificate that has been verified by its Republican governor and director of health as well as the nonpartisan factcheck.org.

Seriously it's amazing what some folk believe is an acceptable reply to a few questions

[Little-Acorn]

call it a losing battle,
One of many battles... and only this one is unwinnable in its present form.


I REFUSE to be defined again by the leftist and our enemy lamestream media..
Too bad you don't refuse to be corralled and made impotent by them. In fact, you're working overtime to help them make it happen.


it's this Marxist and his cohorts are in the process of pulling the wool over the American people eyes...
Correct. Plus, it's that this marxist is trying to put into place an economic system that is gravely harmful to the people of this country.


and just throwing up our hands, again,
Who is doing that? Me, I'm busy pointing out how socialized medicine won't work, with examples and proof; and pointing out how raising taxes will hurt the economy, again with examples and proof; and busy pointing out how withdrawing from Iraq before the enemy there is defeated will result in far more harm than defeating that enemy; and a host of other things... most of which you've seen me do here.

There is tons of evidence supporting the conservative viewpoint on all those matters. Knocking the leftists down is like shooting fish in a barrel. Too bad there aren't more shooters for all those barrels. Too many of them are trying to "prove" Obama wasn't born in the U.S.... a quest the leftists are careful to make impossible, since there is MUCH less evidence available, and they control what little there is. As I said, the conservs trying to win that particular battle, are wasting effort they could be using to do much more effective things and defeat the little marxist's agenda. In fact, THEY are the ones throwing up their hands, and pouring their efforts down a rathole, when they could be defeating the marxist's agenda instead.


and here we go off meekly back into their web..
Yes, so I see. Tilting at windmills again, despite being told what a waste of effort it is. Effort that could have gone to doing something useful, like stopping Socialized Medicine (and maybe even enacting tort reform and repealing employer-benefit tax breaks, things that will create POSITIVE reform); stopping tax increases including those that let GWB's tax cuts expire; working for faster payback of the huge amounts of money squandered as "stimuli".... need I go on?

Get your act together, and quit fighting the battles the left wants you to fight.

[stephanie]

why bother, this country is fucking doomed anyway..I'm throwing my hands up and giving up..

I'll just sit here and watch with sadness in my heart..:salute:

[Little-Acorn]

why bother, this country is fucking doomed anyway..I'm throwing my hands up and giving up..

Chalk up one for the left. :lame2:

[Gaffer]

why bother, this country is fucking doomed anyway..I'm throwing my hands up and giving up..

I'll just sit here and watch with sadness in my heart..:salute:

No don't give up sweetie. Just sit back quietly and await and opportunity.

[gabosaurus]

Did John McCain ever produce his birth certificate?
Funny how you totally dismissed credible evidence that McCain collaborated with his North Vietnamese captors, but you feel strongly that Obama has no birth certificate.

This thread still belongs in conspiracy theories. A smart administrator would move it there.

[Nukeman]

Did John McCain ever produce his birth certificate?.
Yaa he did He was born on a US military base in Panama. He met all requirements of a natural born US citizen.



Funny how you totally dismissed credible evidence that McCain collaborated with his North Vietnamese captors,

Have ANY proof one way or another???


but you feel strongly that Obama has no birth certificate.

All He has to do is PRODUCE or SHOW the legal one that would actually work for employment or a passport


This thread still belongs in conspiracy theories. A smart administrator would move it there
As far as conspiracy goes were you not one of those that said Palin's daughter actually had Trig instead of her until it came out that she was 4 months pregnant when he was born, and you still didn't believe it. So you and your kind need to back off until he PROVES his citizenship......

[namvet]

Did John McCain ever produce his birth certificate?
Funny how you totally dismissed credible evidence that McCain collaborated with his North Vietnamese captors, but you feel strongly that Obama has no birth certificate.

This thread still belongs in conspiracy theories. A smart administrator would move it there.

A smart administrator would ban your ass

[Nukeman]

a smart administrator would ban your ass

why?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[namvet]

Did John McCain ever produce his birth certificate?
Funny how you totally dismissed credible evidence that McCain collaborated with his North Vietnamese captors, but you feel strongly that Obama has no birth certificate.

This thread still belongs in conspiracy theories. A smart administrator would move it there.

:link: and im betin the farm you can't prove anything

[namvet]

why?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

she's a troll ??!!!

[Nukeman]

she's a troll ??!!!

The same could be said about you some days........

So should we have the admin's "ban your ass" when your being an idiot!!!!:poke:

[Noir]

Just noted the following statement.


All He has to do is PRODUCE or SHOW the legal one that would actually work for employment or a passport

Does Obama have an American passport? If so, would he not of had to produce a legal one to get the passport?

[Nukeman]

Just noted the following statement.



Does Obama have an American passport? If so, would he not of had to produce a legal one to get the passport?Correct but he REFUSES to produce any of that. He traveled extensively in his college years but we don't know on what passport he used or traveled with(he refuses to release that information). If you have copy of it I would appreciate seeing it. me and about 50 million other people..

As the President of the US i am sure he was able to get a new passport without having to go through what Myself and my wife have to get one. His office can make a simple phone call and get on for him....... Or do you think he has to send away with 2 photos and a slew of ID like us common folk???

[MtnBiker]

The same could be said about you some days........

So should we have the admin's "ban your ass" when your being an idiot!!!!:poke:

Agreed!

[Noir]

Correct but he REFUSES to produce any of that. He traveled extensively in his college years but we don't know on what passport he used or traveled with(he refuses to release that information). If you have copy of it I would appreciate seeing it. me and about 50 million other people..

As the President of the US i am sure he was able to get a new passport without having to go through what Myself and my wife have to get one. His office can make a simple phone call and get on for him....... Or do you think he has to send away with 2 photos and a slew of ID like us common folk???


Righty pop, obviously as pres he will of got a fast track passport. But the idea of him traveling on a Kenyan passport all those years and it never came up.

[Missileman]

Righty pop, obviously as pres he will of got a fast track passport. But the idea of him traveling on a Kenyan passport all those years and it never came up.

Not Kenyan, Indonesian.

[Nukeman]

Righty pop, obviously as pres he will of got a fast track passport. But the idea of him traveling on a Kenyan passport all those years and it never came up.Well when he was traveling as a college student we don't know if he traveled on a US, Kenyan, or Indonesian passport. WE WONT DISCLOSE the information. We don't keep track of what someone traveled on 30 years ago, do we????


It has come up and it is dismissed as a "lunatic birther" see the irony here???

[Gaffer]

Righty pop, obviously as pres he will of got a fast track passport. But the idea of him traveling on a Kenyan passport all those years and it never came up.

It never came up because the information was buried. If they can force him to produce a birth certificate they can for him to release other documents as well. Like his scholastic record, passport, tax records, employment history, school financing. None of this is available to be viewed. His whole history is a blank page.

[namvet]

The same could be said about you some days........

So should we have the admin's "ban your ass" when your being an idiot!!!!:poke:

im here everyday. not hit and run.

[Nukeman]

im here everyday. not hit and run.

Ohh please stay on topic.

YOU troll a lot yourself. what with your personal attacks and other crap and one line answers. get over yourself please........

I don't have anything against you personally but I do wish you would stop with the constant badgering and name calling. It is REAL mature and adds soo much to the conversation and board as a whole..... (sarcasm off)


Just so you know the words your throwing around an how they reflect on you.... Here's the "troll" definition look closely and see if any of this sounds familiar



In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

Do any of the highlighted sections sound like you on a lot of your posts. remember those that live inglass houses really shouldn't throw stones..... Look in the miror my friend

[namvet]

Ohh please stay on topic.

YOU troll a lot yourself. what with your personal attacks and other crap and one line answers. get over yourself please........

I don't have anything against you personally but I do wish you would stop with the constant badgering and name calling. It is REAL mature and adds soo much to the conversation and board as a whole..... (sarcasm off)


Just so you know the words your throwing around an how they reflect on you.... Here's the "troll" definition look closely and see if any of this sounds familiar




Do any of the highlighted sections sound like you on a lot of your posts. remember those that live inglass houses really shouldn't throw stones..... Look in the miror my friend


In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

on toolbar at top click search. enter gabosaurus> find posts. fits this description to a T