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chloe
10-15-2009, 07:43 PM
REXBURG, Idaho -- Elder Dallin H. Oaks, an Apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, spoke Tuesday of religious discrimination members of his faith experienced following the passage of California's Proposition 8. He compared it to voter discrimination African Americans suffered in the 1960s.

Respect for religion in American life is deteriorating was what Elder Oaks told BYU-Idaho students. He said people of faith must insist on their constitutional rights to practice their religion and vote their consciences.

Related: Reid allegedly criticized LDS church for Prop. 8 involvement
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, (D-Nev.) is allegedly criticizing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for backing a California ballot measure banning same sex marriage."While our church rarely speaks on public issues, it does so by exception on what the First Presidency defines as significant moral issues," Elder Oaks said.

One of those issues was California's Proposition 8 to end same-sex marriage. Latter-day Saints in that state joined a coalition of faiths to help it pass.

"When churches and their members, or any other groups, speak out on public issues, win or lose, they have the right to expect freedom from retaliation," Elder Oaks said. [CLICK HERE to read the full text of Elder Oaks' speech]

Three days after last November's election, thousands gathered for a rally and march in downtown Salt Lake City, protesting the vote on Prop 8. Earlier Tuesday, in an interview with Church Public Affairs, Elder Oaks said he was not talking about simple opposition.

"What I mean by intimidation is when people exercise their religious beliefs and they are then fired from jobs, churches are subject to vandalism, people are coerced," Elder Oaks said.

He likened that intimidation to what African Americans experienced during the civil rights movement.

"I would say that the intimidation I refer to in connection to Proposition 8 was not as serious as what happened in the South, but I think the analogy is a good one," Elder Oaks said.

He also said religious values and our country's political framework are interlinked, and that losing the influence of Christianity jeopardizes our basic freedoms.

"I maintain that this is a political fact, well-qualified for argument in the public square by religious people whose freedom to believe and act will always be protected by what is properly called ‘Our First Freedom,' the free exercise of religion," Oaks said.

Gay rights activists are challenging Proposition 8, which overturned same sex marriage in California.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=576&sid=8297467

Religious belief is obviously protected against government action. The practice of that belief must have some limits, as I suggested earlier. But unless the guarantee of free exercise of religion gives a religious actor greater protection against government prohibitions than are already guaranteed to all actors by other provisions of the constitution (like freedom of speech), what is the special value of religious freedom? Surely the First Amendment guarantee of free exercise of religion was intended to grant more freedom to religious action than to other kinds of action. Treating actions based on religious belief the same as actions based on other systems of belief should not be enough to satisfy the special place of religion in the United States Constitution.


Religious freedom has always been at risk. It was repression of religious belief and practice that drove the Pilgrim fathers and other dissenters to the shores of this continent. Even today, leaders in all too many nations use state power to repress religious believers. The greatest infringements of religious freedom occur when the exercise of religion collides with other powerful forces in society. Among the most threatening collisions in the United States today are (1) the rising strength of those who seek to silence religious voices in public debates, and (2) perceived conflicts between religious freedom and the popular appeal of newly alleged civil rights.

As I address this audience of young adults, I invite your careful attention to what I say on these subjects, because I am describing conditions you will face and challenges you must confront.

Atheism has always been hostile to religion, such as in its arguments that freedom of or for religion should include freedom from religion. Atheism’s threat rises as its proponents grow in numbers and aggressiveness. “By some counts,” a recent article in The Economist declares, “there are at least 500 [million] declared non-believers in the world — enough to make atheism the fourth-biggest religion.”[viii] And atheism’s spokesmen are aggressive, as recent publications show.[ix] As noted by John A. Howard of the Howard Center for Family, Religion, and Society, these voices “have developed great skills in demonizing those who disagree with them, turning their opponents into objects of fear, hatred and scorn.”[x]

Such forces — atheists and others — would intimidate persons with religious-based points of view from influencing or making the laws of their state or nation. Noted author and legal commentator Hugh Hewitt described the current circumstance this way:

“There is a growing anti-religious bigotry in the United States. . . .

“For three decades people of faith have watched a systematic and very effective effort waged in the courts and the media to drive them from the public square and to delegitimize their participation in politics as somehow threatening.”[xi]

For example, a prominent gay-rights spokesman gave this explanation for his objection to our Church’s position on California’s Proposition 8:

“I’m not intending it to harm the religion. I think they do wonderful things. Nicest people. . . . My single goal is to get them out of the same-sex marriage business and back to helping hurricane victims.”[xii]

Aside from the obvious fact that this objection would deny free speech as well as religious freedom to members of our Church and its coalition partners, there are other reasons why the public square must be open to religious ideas and religious persons. As Richard John Neuhaus said many years ago, “In a democracy that is free and robust, an opinion is no more disqualified for being ‘religious’ than for being atheistic, or psychoanalytic, or Marxist, or just plain dumb."





http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/religious-freedom

chloe
10-15-2009, 08:02 PM
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avatar4321
10-15-2009, 09:14 PM
Keith Olbermann has already named him the worst person in the world.

chloe
10-15-2009, 09:23 PM
Keith Olbermann has already named him the worst person in the world.

he names someone worst person in the world every episode so that is discredited.

This is a speech given 40 years warning america about the upcoming socialism we will face

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PostmodernProphet
10-16-2009, 07:27 AM
LDS apostle says religious freedom is under attack

d'uh!............

chloe
10-16-2009, 10:06 AM
d'uh!............

I was just thinking about that the other day, and then he gave a speech about it at byu. ha ha:cool:

bullypulpit
10-19-2009, 12:33 PM
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/religious-freedom

Religious discrimination? Not so much. Just discrimination against a bunch of ass-hats and self-righteous busy-bodies that didn't have the sense to mind their own business. If the less ass-hat like of their followers are being caught in the back lash, the leaders of the Mormon Church have no one but themselves to blame.

Oh...but it's OK if they discriminate against others...like same-gender couples that want to get married. Hypocrisy anyone?

Didn't hear the Elder specify just how same-gender couples getting married threaten America. As for when people of faith enter the ballot-booth or public office, their faith will fundamentally shape how he or she deals with the world. Nothing wrong with that. But in attempting to their religious dogma the full weight and force of the law, they attempt to force their religious views upon the populace in general, many of whom may not believe as they do. As the Mormon church Elders did with their backing of Prop 8. The passage of Prop 8 in California institutionalized discrimination of a whole class of individuals, and stripped them of a right already secured under the law...the right to marry.

avatar4321
10-19-2009, 05:23 PM
So let's see if i got this straight:

You force your values on others - Alright.

Others who happen to have faith preserve the values that have been part of our society for thousands of years by exercising their God given right to vote and speak out - Most heinous crime worthy of attack.

Got ya.

chloe
10-19-2009, 07:14 PM
Religious discrimination? Not so much. Just discrimination against a bunch of ass-hats and self-righteous busy-bodies that didn't have the sense to mind their own business. If the less ass-hat like of their followers are being caught in the back lash, the leaders of the Mormon Church have no one but themselves to blame.

Oh...but it's OK if they discriminate against others...like same-gender couples that want to get married. Hypocrisy anyone?

Didn't hear the Elder specify just how same-gender couples getting married threaten America. As for when people of faith enter the ballot-booth or public office, their faith will fundamentally shape how he or she deals with the world. Nothing wrong with that. But in attempting to their religious dogma the full weight and force of the law, they attempt to force their religious views upon the populace in general, many of whom may not believe as they do. As the Mormon church Elders did with their backing of Prop 8. The passage of Prop 8 in California institutionalized discrimination of a whole class of individuals, and stripped them of a right already secured under the law...the right to marry.

The Speech he gave was at BYU a religious based school. I think Religious people have the right to speak out against things they don't believe in. Plus they have the right to vote there conscience or religious convictions. The government is who has decided what marriage can be legal and what marriage can't. Just like how Polygamists in Utah have not been recognized as having a legal marriage. People should have the right to speak out for there beliefs religious or not. I do think religion is under attack often from the ever increasing non-religious groups. But while non religious people may not like the attitudes or beliefs of a certain religion that doesn't mean the religion has to be quiet or quite speaking out. That is supposed to be the great freedom in america to have your own beliefs and to speak about them and to vote your own convictions. The gay marriage issue is really just a issue about marriage and whether the government should even be involved in it in my opinion.

bullypulpit
10-20-2009, 06:39 AM
The Speech he gave was at BYU a religious based school. I think Religious people have the right to speak out against things they don't believe in. Plus they have the right to vote there conscience or religious convictions. The government is who has decided what marriage can be legal and what marriage can't. Just like how Polygamists in Utah have not been recognized as having a legal marriage. People should have the right to speak out for there beliefs religious or not. I do think religion is under attack often from the ever increasing non-religious groups. But while non religious people may not like the attitudes or beliefs of a certain religion that doesn't mean the religion has to be quiet or quite speaking out. That is supposed to be the great freedom in america to have your own beliefs and to speak about them and to vote your own convictions. The gay marriage issue is really just a issue about marriage and whether the government should even be involved in it in my opinion.

Indeed, one does have the right to speak out against things they find offensive or don't believe in. They do have the right to vote their conscience at the ballot box. But the discrimination institutionalized by Prop 8 is nothing more than giving religious dogma the full weight of civil law. There is absolutely no proof of demonstrable harm to anyone by allowing same gender couples to marry despite the vague mutterings and grumblings of religious authorities on the matter.

As for marriage, the only compelling interest the government has in it lies in the contractual relationship it establishes between the parties involving property ownership, child-care, finances, benefits and the like. The gender of the individuals involved is irrelevant to the government, or shold be by any rational standard.

chloe
10-20-2009, 08:44 AM
Indeed, one does have the right to speak out against things they find offensive or don't believe in. They do have the right to vote their conscience at the ballot box. But the discrimination institutionalized by Prop 8 is nothing more than giving religious dogma the full weight of civil law. There is absolutely no proof of demonstrable harm to anyone by allowing same gender couples to marry despite the vague mutterings and grumblings of religious authorities on the matter.

As for marriage, the only compelling interest the government has in it lies in the contractual relationship it establishes between the parties involving property ownership, child-care, finances, benefits and the like. The gender of the individuals involved is irrelevant to the government, or shold be by any rational standard.

The government has a lot of say in what becomes law and what doesn't. Religion has a voice and is allowed to have a voice. If Mormons want to protest gay marriage because that is something they find morally wrong and against the foundation of there religious beliefs of course it is there right. The Court decides what is harmful and what is not, the public voters put representatives in offices to pass laws on the issues or the public votes on a ballot. It is that simple. Yet non religious people seem to think any religion should have no voice in society and the way we shape it.

avatar4321
10-20-2009, 11:12 AM
Indeed, one does have the right to speak out against things they find offensive or don't believe in. They do have the right to vote their conscience at the ballot box. But the discrimination institutionalized by Prop 8 is nothing more than giving religious dogma the full weight of civil law. There is absolutely no proof of demonstrable harm to anyone by allowing same gender couples to marry despite the vague mutterings and grumblings of religious authorities on the matter.

As for marriage, the only compelling interest the government has in it lies in the contractual relationship it establishes between the parties involving property ownership, child-care, finances, benefits and the like. The gender of the individuals involved is irrelevant to the government, or shold be by any rational standard.

There is nothing discriminatory about upholding the definition of marriage and preventing people like you from forcing the institution to be redefined through non-democratic/republican means.

You don't have the right to force your immorality onto others. You are a hypocrite for being so outraged for people voting their conscience while you try to force your views on others. It's sick and wrong and this is exactly what is wrong with our system. Totalitarians like you seem to think they can tell everyone else what they need to do and accept.

If your cause is so just. take it to the people. You can't. Because your cause isnt just.

bullypulpit
10-20-2009, 01:32 PM
So let's see if i got this straight:

You force your values on others - Alright.

Others who happen to have faith preserve the values that have been part of our society for thousands of years by exercising their God given right to vote and speak out - Most heinous crime worthy of attack.

Got ya.

No, you don't get me. Permitting same gender couples to marry in NO WAY forces YOU to marry someone of the same gender. It has no demonstrable effect on traditional married couples. The only visible effect is on your, and your fellow travelers, in your moral indignation at something which has no direct, demonstrable effect on your life.

bullypulpit
10-20-2009, 01:39 PM
There is nothing discriminatory about upholding the definition of marriage and preventing people like you from forcing the institution to be redefined through non-democratic/republican means.

You don't have the right to force your immorality onto others. You are a hypocrite for being so outraged for people voting their conscience while you try to force your views on others. It's sick and wrong and this is exactly what is wrong with our system. Totalitarians like you seem to think they can tell everyone else what they need to do and accept.

If your cause is so just. take it to the people. You can't. Because your cause isnt just.

It isn't being redefined except in your own minds. As I stated in response to your previous post, neither you, nor your fellow travelers, are being forced to marry someone of the same gender. If you are happily married in a traditional marriage, nothing will change that.

Had we taken Brown v. Board of Education "to the people" instead of the SCOTUS, how much longer would the American Apartheid as embodied by "Jim Crowe" laws have continued? Was that cause just or not?

You should brush up on your understanding of the definition of "totalitarian". Your grasp as used in your post is sadly lacking.

bullypulpit
10-20-2009, 01:47 PM
The government has a lot of say in what becomes law and what doesn't. Religion has a voice and is allowed to have a voice. If Mormons want to protest gay marriage because that is something they find morally wrong and against the foundation of there religious beliefs of course it is there right. The Court decides what is harmful and what is not, the public voters put representatives in offices to pass laws on the issues or the public votes on a ballot. It is that simple. Yet non religious people seem to think any religion should have no voice in society and the way we shape it.

Religion, or lack thereof, will make itself felt by how it shapes the responses of individuals to the world around them, and thus given voice in society at large. There is no escaping that. To claim, however, that the general garment of any single religion is a proper fit for all is nothing short of hubris.

Morality is not dependent upon religion. For our morals and values to have any real meaning they must be firmly rooted in the consequences to this human life...in this world...Not the capricious whims of some all powerful being which makes its presence known only to a few chosen, select individuals.

chloe
10-20-2009, 02:24 PM
Religion, or lack thereof, will make itself felt by how it shapes the responses of individuals to the world around them, and thus given voice in society at large. There is no escaping that. To claim, however, that the general garment of any single religion is a proper fit for all is nothing short of hubris.

Morality is not dependent upon religion. For our morals and values to have any real meaning they must be firmly rooted in the consequences to this human life...in this world...Not the capricious whims of some all powerful being which makes its presence known only to a few chosen, select individuals.

I see your point. Im not Mormon but I was married to one once(wink), I personally don't have an issue with gay marriage. I think they should be allowed to and so should polygamists. I just think religions should have the right to practice there beliefs, and also speak out. I came across this article where someone from the catholic church says they asked the mormon church to get involved in the prop 8 issue in california.

Associated Press
SAN FRANCISCO—San Francisco’s Roman Catholic archbishop says he invited leaders of the Mormon Church to get involved in the campaign to pass a gay marriage ban in California this year at the request of his fellow bishops.

Archbishop George Niederauer wrote in a column published in a diocesan newspaper Friday that he wanted to address the “many misunderstandings and hard feelings” resulting from Proposition 8’s adoption.

It’s the first time the archbishop has commented on how churches organized to help push through the initiative, which overturned the California Supreme Court’s decision to legalize same-sex nuptials. Mormon leaders had given a similar account of how its members, who represent about 2 percent of the California residents with a religious affiliation, came to play such a prominent role in promoting Proposition 8.

Niederauer said that after the state’s Catholic bishops endorsed the measure, staff from the California Catholic Conference told him The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had actively supported a similar ballot initiative eight years ago.

Niederauer, who previously served as bishop of Salt Lake City, said he sent a letter to Mormon leaders.

“I did write to them and they urged the members of their Church, especially those in California, to become involved,” he said.

By some estimates, contributions from Mormon supporters accounted for 45 percent of the $38 million raised by the Yes on 8 campaign.

In the month since the election, Mormon temples around the country have become targets of protest, and some gay rights activists have called for a boycott of Mormon-owned businesses and even the entire state of Utah.

Niederauer also defended the active involvement churches played in the campaign, saying “religious leaders in America have the constitutional right to speak out on issues of public policy.”

Niederauer said that while he knew many gay people felt “hurt and offended,” both sides “need to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

“We need to stop talking as if we are experts on the real motives of people with whom we have never even spoken. We need to stop hurling names like “bigot” and “pervert” at each other. And we need to stop it now,” he said.

http://www.chicagofreepress.com/node/2883