View Full Version : *WTF Italy Taking Down The Cross?*
chesswarsnow
11-03-2009, 08:06 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. How in Gods name does a small minority *muslims* in Italy get the good Christian Peoples Court System, to make all schools remove, *The Cross*?
2. This is happenning just like I have been predicting in Europe, and will end up making all of Europe a hell hole, just like the middle east.
3. This should open the eyes of everyone on this site, but I know the people on this site, have them super glued shut.
4. I know there are many many people on this site, who know and agree, its coming here, and we had better get ready to fight it or get eaten up by it.
5. Link and a sample:http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-43651820091103
"ROME (Reuters) - The European Court of Human Rights ruled on Tuesday that crucifixes should be removed from Italian classrooms, prompting Vatican anger and sparking uproar in Italy, where such icons are embedded in the national psyche.
"The ruling of the European court was received in the Vatican with shock and sadness," said Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi, adding that it was "wrong and myopic" to try to exclude a symbol of charity from education.
The ruling by the court in Strasbourg, which Italy said it would appeal, said crucifixes on school walls -- a common sight that is part of every Italian's life -- could disturb children who were not Christians.
Italy has been in the throes of national debate on how to deal with a growing population of immigrants, mostly Muslims, and the court sentence is likely to become another battle cry for the centre-right government's policy to restrict newcomers.
"This is an abhorrent ruling," said Rocco Buttiglione, a former culture minister who helped write papal encyclicals.
"It must be rejected with firmness. Italy has its culture, its traditions and its history. Those who come among us must understand and accept this culture and this history," he said.
The Vatican spokesman said it was sad that the crucifix could be considered a symbol of division and said religion offered a vital contribution to the moral formation of people.
Members of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government bristled, weighing in with words such as "shameful", "offensive", "absurd," "unacceptable," and "pagan"........"
6. All you pleased with the way things are, get ready to hand over everything to the muslims, you asked for it, God hears you, so it will all be taken away from you, and given to others willing to blow themselves up to get ahead of you, even if what they are doing is unjust, you as a people, have not fought for whats right, so there you go.......
7. The muslims are coming, and unless we learn to defend out religious freedom, we *WILL* lose it.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
hjmick
11-03-2009, 08:58 PM
Fear is a powerful motivator.
gabosaurus
11-04-2009, 02:09 AM
What does this have to do with the War on Terrorism?
Or perhaps CheeseWars doesn't know how to read.
I say good for Italy, Religion and state should be kept as far apart as is possible, and so o wouldn't think a cross has any bussiness on a school wall.
Kathianne
11-04-2009, 04:10 AM
What does this have to do with the War on Terrorism?
Or perhaps CheeseWars doesn't know how to read.
In fairness, Chessy has been asked to post all his 'Muslim rants' in WOT, so as not to cover the board with them.
Nukeman
11-04-2009, 07:18 AM
I say good for Italy, Religion and state should be kept as far apart as is possible, and so o wouldn't think a cross has any bussiness on a school wall.
Here's the problem as I see it. When you take religion out of schools you are essentialy promoting ONE idea over another. Since "schools' are supposed to be about learning it is disingenious at best to limit what is being taught....
Religion plays an important part in most peoples lives, so why is it that something that takes center stage so often is considered taboo in the school system. I personaly belive that ALL religions should be touched upon in school. religion should be allowed to be practiced if wanted (no forced participation)
If a parent does not want thier child exposed to certain religions they can opt out of that discussion. The total absence of religion is nothing more than the promotion of athieism......... Which is a philosophy in and of it's self, so how can we promote one over another?????
We should also look at the country that this is being forced upon as well. Italy is home to the "Holy See" its population is predominately Catholic.
Do we all belive that when Muslim countries come into the EU they willabide by the "No Religion" in schools philosophy???
Lets call this what it really is and it is a covert war on Christianity by a select few that are easily offenced.
It's like have Chesswarsnow on the other side screaming how evil it is......:poke:
chesswarsnow
11-04-2009, 08:26 AM
Sorry bout that,
What does this have to do with the War on Terrorism?
Or perhaps CheeseWars doesn't know how to read.
1. Right, doggie girl.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
chesswarsnow
11-04-2009, 08:55 AM
Sorry bout that,
Here's the problem as I see it. When you take religion out of schools you are essentialy promoting ONE idea over another. Since "schools' are supposed to be about learning it is disingenious at best to limit what is being taught....
Religion plays an important part in most peoples lives, so why is it that something that takes center stage so often is considered taboo in the school system. I personaly belive that ALL religions should be touched upon in school. religion should be allowed to be practiced if wanted (no forced participation)
If a parent does not want thier child exposed to certain religions they can opt out of that discussion. The total absence of religion is nothing more than the promotion of athieism......... Which is a philosophy in and of it's self, so how can we promote one over another?????
We should also look at the country that this is being forced upon as well. Italy is home to the "Holy See" its population is predominately Catholic.
Do we all belive that when Muslim countries come into the EU they willabide by the "No Religion" in schools philosophy???
Lets call this what it really is and it is a covert war on Christianity by a select few that are easily offenced.
It's like have Chesswarsnow on the other side screaming how evil it is......:poke:
1. Its like what I've been ranting about all these years is coming true.
2. Now is it my ranting thats bringing about all the muslim crap?
3. Or am I right with my accessments?
4. A little chicken and egg, which came first thought.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Trigg
11-04-2009, 09:50 AM
Lautsi, the woman who filed the suit, said crucifixes on walls ran counter to her right to give her children a secular education and the Strasbourg-based court ruled in her favour.
Where in the article does it say the woman is Muslim?????????????
Here's the problem as I see it. When you take religion out of schools you are essentialy promoting ONE idea over another. Since "schools' are supposed to be about learning it is disingenious at best to limit what is being taught....
See the way i see it when you have a religion in school then you are favouring certain religions over others, and which is wrong, ergo its an all or nothing choice that must be made, and as all is impractical I would rather see nothing.
Religion plays an important part in most peoples lives, so why is it that something that takes center stage so often is considered taboo in the school system. I personaly belive that ALL religions should be touched upon in school. religion should be allowed to be practiced if wanted (no forced participation)
All religions?...so you've got Christianity (and all its sects) Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, then you've got Thor, Apollo, Zeus, Ra, the great juju up the mountain, the flying spaghetti monster...only to name but a few, so as its clear that all religions can not be taught then were do you have the cut off?
If a parent does not want thier child exposed to certain religions they can opt out of that discussion. The total absence of religion is nothing more than the promotion of athieism......... Which is a philosophy in and of it's self, so how can we promote one over another?????
Linked in with my above answer, how can you favour one religion over another?
We should also look at the country that this is being forced upon as well. Italy is home to the "Holy See" its population is predominately Catholic.
Do we all belive that when Muslim countries come into the EU they willabide by the "No Religion" in schools philosophy???
Lets call this what it really is and it is a covert war on Christianity by a select few that are easily offenced.
It's like have Chesswarsnow on the other side screaming how evil it is......:poke:
I doubt they will, but that is off little concern, just because another country wants to force religion upon its children does not mean that we should.
HogTrash
11-04-2009, 01:18 PM
Political Correctness.
The #1 weapon in the liberal arsenal.
Nukeman
11-04-2009, 01:49 PM
See the way i see it when you have a religion in school then you are favouring certain religions over others, and which is wrong, ergo its an all or nothing choice that must be made, and as all is impractical I would rather see nothing..Not at all but by REMOVING all religion you are favouring athieism!!! So you would be promoting One philosophy over others..
All religions?...so you've got Christianity (and all its sects) Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, then you've got Thor, Apollo, Zeus, Ra, the great juju up the mountain, the flying spaghetti monster...only to name but a few, so as its clear that all religions can not be taught then were do you have the cut off?What I mean by all religions is the major players in the world and your particular region. the different christian sects all practice "CHRISTIANITY" and as such can be lumped together, same with the different forms of Islam. I am not talking about an "indepth" study of each religion, and you will have to agree that not many people are still worshiping Apollo, Zues, or Ra or even the the great Juju on the mountain. Not a very good argument in my book. It is nothing to introduce the main religions of the world and ALLOW the child to PRACTICE thier religion if they want......
I doubt they will, but that is off little concern, just because another country wants to force religion upon its children does not mean that we should
So what your saying is that it should only be for westernized countries??? Only enlightend countries should have no forms of enlightenment in them????
It is not "forcing" to make information available, I can't believe you don't see that by eliminating religion you are FORCING the views of athieism on everyone. How is that any different than forcing a single religion????
HogTrash
11-04-2009, 01:55 PM
See the way i see it when you have a religion in school then you are favouring certain religions over others, and which is wrong, ergo its an all or nothing choice that must be made, and as all is impractical I would rather see nothing.
All religions?...so you've got Christianity (and all its sects) Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, then you've got Thor, Apollo, Zeus, Ra, the great juju up the mountain, the flying spaghetti monster...only to name but a few, so as its clear that all religions can not be taught then were do you have the cut off?
Linked in with my above answer, how can you favour one religion over another?
I doubt they will, but that is off little concern, just because another country wants to force religion upon its children does not mean that we should.The simple facts is western civilization, along with it's culture, laws and politics is rooted in Christianity, the same as middle eastern civilization is rooted in Islam.
What would happen if outsiders demanded muslims remove all islamic symbols from public view and prayer was forbidden outside of places of worship in their homeland?
People should not have the right to immigrate to someone elses country and begin making religious demands on them or expect them to conform to their culture or way of life...It shows bad manners.
If I graciously allow someone into my home, that does not give them the right to redecorate my house, expect me to conform to their lifestyle or demand I remove a cross hanging on my wall.
Old liberals have lost the abilty to think rationaly and practice common sense and young liberals never learned to use these abilities to begin with...To do so would challenge their 'political correctness'.
Not at all but by REMOVING all religion you are favouring athieism!!! So you would be promoting One philosophy over others..
Thats only if you promte athieism, and anyway we're all athieists, some of us just go one God further.
What I mean by all religions is the major players in the world and your particular region. the different christian sects all practice "CHRISTIANITY" and as such can be lumped together, same with the different forms of Islam. I am not talking about an "indepth" study of each religion, and you will have to agree that not many people are still worshiping Apollo, Zues, or Ra or even the the great Juju on the mountain. Not a very good argument in my book. It is nothing to introduce the main religions of the world and ALLOW the child to PRACTICE thier religion if they want......
LOL so a religion should not be taught about because there are not many believers? Is that how you judge the importance of a religion? I dare say that if someone told you they believed in Ra you would think they were mad...and yet what more proof is there that Ra exists than a Christain god, or anyother god?
So what your saying is that it should only be for westernized countries??? Only enlightend countries should have no forms of enlightenment in them????
I'm saying that i think every country should remove religion from schools, some will, some won't, but to use the arguement 'well some other countries won't so we're not gonna' sounds rather purile, no?
It is not "forcing" to make information available, I can't believe you don't see that by eliminating religion you are FORCING the views of athieism on everyone. How is that any different than forcing a single religion????
Becuase there are not gonna be athieist symbols on the walls (as you do with religious symbols) and you are not gonna have classes called Athiest Education (as you do with religious education)
I'm not promoting the idea that schools should teach against gods, but they should not teach for them either, because they will never be fair and balenced in how they discuss and teach all religions (not to mention that they wouldn't be able to discuss 99% of the religions out tehre due to time anyway)
The simple facts is western civilization, along with it's culture, laws and politics is rooted in Christianity, the same as middle eastern civilization is rooted in Islam.
Indeed i believe every country has had a religious core to it at some point in time, or if not then an Ideology that acts as a religion.
What would happen if outsiders demanded muslims remove all islamic symbols from public view and prayer was forbidden outside of places of worship in their homeland?
This is more of the childish 'well if they won't do it we won't do it'...surly as a member of a western civilization you believe that you should do on to others as you would wish to be done to yourself, and using the failings of others to block progress just isn't a decent reason at all.
People should not have the right to immigrate to someone elses country and begin making religious demands on them or expect them to conform to their culture or way of life...It shows bad manners.
...well i haven't immigrated and would like simalar demands (though prob for different reasons granted) is that fair manners?
If I graciously allow someone into my home, that does not give them the right to redecorate my house, expect me to conform to their lifestyle or demand I remove a cross hanging on my wall.
Bad example...i'm doing my best to think of a better one, but tehre is most certainly a difference between someone being in your home and being in your country.
Old liberals have lost the abilty to think rationaly and practice common sense and young liberals never learned to use these abilities to begin with...To do so would challenge their 'political correctness'.
And finish with a flurry and a couple of insults...good manners bro....
Nukeman
11-04-2009, 02:37 PM
LOL so a religion should not be taught about because there are not many believers? Is that how you judge the importance of a religion? I dare say that if someone told you they believed in Ra you would think they were mad...and yet what more proof is there that Ra exists than a Christain god, or anyother god?)
I did not say that. YOU will note in my previous post I said "What I mean by all religions is the major players in the world and your particular region"
If a region has more hindus than by all means touch more upon that religion same with Bhudist, Taoist, Islamist, Christians, etc..etc...
I'm saying that i think every country should remove religion from schools, some will, some won't, but to use the arguement 'well some other countries won't so we're not gonna' sounds rather purile, no?Well thats a great little fantasy world there but it just isn't going to happen, and the less we understand other cultures and thier religions the more problems we will have relating to them.
what your esentialy proposing is xenophobic at the least... Your wanting everyone to stay segregated on their beliefs and not know anything about one another!!!!??????
Becuase there are not gonna be athieist symbols on the walls (as you do with religious symbols) and you are not gonna have classes called Athiest Education (as you do with religious education) By the fact of NO RELIGIOUS articles being present and NOTHING being taught you are by DEFAULT promoting athieism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not promoting the idea that schools should teach against gods, but they should not teach for them either, because they will never be fair and balenced in how they discuss and teach all religions (not to mention that they wouldn't be able to discuss 99% of the religions out tehre due to time anywayGuess what Noir...........Life is not fair.... Never has been and never will be... I will say I am one that abhors double standards in EVERYTHING. I feel the schools should touch upon all major religions and should give a basic understanding after all the history of the human race is steeped in religion and your willing to deny the children of the future this part of their history??????
Kathianne
11-04-2009, 05:12 PM
I teach in a Catholic School, we teach religion there. Then again, that's why the parents send their children to our school. We have crucifixes in each classroom, even the gym and office. We go to church, as a school, every other week, (We're not that Catholic. (Where my children went, they had to go everyday, before school, that's Catholic. ;)
In 7th grade the curriculum calls for 'comparative religion'. That unit lasts 8 weeks, 5 days a week, 50 minutes per day.
It's beyond what they learn in 6th grade Ancient History about polytheism of the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Hindus, Buddhists, and American Indigenous peoples. It's beyond what they learn about the monotheism of Israelites.
Our public high school has a similar class to what is taught in 7th grade religion, it's an optional course that fulfills a social science class in 12th grade. No problem, since each religion is taught as a unit, basic tenants and where the majority religions are found. I nearly forgot, agnosticism and atheism are also addressed.
chesswarsnow
11-04-2009, 05:16 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Italy's troubles are our troubles, we have lost our schools years ago.
2. We live in a *Shit Hole*!
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Kathianne
11-04-2009, 05:30 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Italy's troubles are our troubles, we have lost our schools years ago.
2. We live in a *Shit Hole*!
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Then leave, as you keep threatening. I hear Canada has health care and perhaps in Quebec you may find some crucifixes?
chesswarsnow
11-04-2009, 05:59 PM
Sorry bout that,
Then leave, as you keep threatening. I hear Canada has health care and perhaps in Quebec you may find some crucifixes?
1. Nah, this is the only *Shit Hole* I have ever known.:laugh2:
2. And I guess I'm some what used to it.
3. Do you think theres a way that we Americans can fix this crap?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Kathianne
11-04-2009, 06:01 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Nah, this is the only *Shit Hole* I have ever known.:laugh2:
2. And I guess I'm some what used to it.
3. Do you think theres a way that we Americans can fix this crap?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
While I see things I want to change, they are certainly not in line with anything you've espoused so far in your years here.
chesswarsnow
11-04-2009, 08:05 PM
Sorry bout that,
While I see things I want to change, they are certainly not in line with anything you've espoused so far in your years here.
1. Look Katy, what things do you think can be changed?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Kathianne
11-04-2009, 08:11 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Look Katy, what things do you think can be changed?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Who the f is Katy? Cheesey, get the name right, I may or may not answer.
chesswarsnow
11-04-2009, 08:19 PM
Sorry bout that,
Who the f is Katy? Cheesey, get the name right, I may or may not answer.
1. Its your new *Nick*, you like it?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
I did not say that. YOU will note in my previous post I said "What I mean by all religions is the major players in the world and your particular region"
If a region has more hindus than by all means touch more upon that religion same with Bhudist, Taoist, Islamist, Christians, etc..etc...
So you judge only major religions to be valid ones? Why would you consider Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, ect above the Greek, Roman and Byzantine gods? Surly to put some religions over others is favouring them unduly?
Well thats a great little fantasy world there but it just isn't going to happen, and the less we understand other cultures and thier religions the more problems we will have relating to them.
I know it will never happen, such is life, i can however argue why i think it should be the way i think it should be, no matte how unlikly it may be.
what your esentialy proposing is xenophobic at the least... Your wanting everyone to stay segregated on their beliefs and not know anything about one another!!!!??????
Well this is certainly the first time i've ever been called xenophobic, and i find it really rather ironic, as my whole idea of removing religion from schools (and from the lives of children as a whole) is to discourage segregation which can arise from differnet religious groups not mixing,
Were i use to live there were the Catholic and Protestant schools, and parents sent there children to their respective faith schools, this creates a division before these children can even read, yet it is one that seems to be accepted by soceity. But if there was no religion in schools then such devisions, and thus segreations would not be there.
By the fact of NO RELIGIOUS articles being present and NOTHING being taught you are by DEFAULT promoting athieism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As i have already said we are all athieists, even yourself, to thousands of Gods, yet you see no problem with that.
And i do not think it promotes athieism, nor do i think it promotes theiesm, it does what its meant to do and keeps itself out of religion.
Guess what Noir...........Life is not fair.... Never has been and never will be... I will say I am one that abhors double standards in EVERYTHING. I feel the schools should touch upon all major religions and should give a basic understanding after all the history of the human race is steeped in religion and your willing to deny the children of the future this part of their history??????
There you are again talking about major religions, quite how you can see some religions as more important than others is beond me,
I also don't get what you mean by your statements about the world not being fair in relation to this debate, if you could please elaborate,
Kathianne
11-04-2009, 09:30 PM
Noir, do not bypass my post, regardless of the drivel the Cheesy one posted, please.
HogTrash
11-04-2009, 11:04 PM
Indeed i believe every country has had a religious core to it at some point in time, or if not then an Ideology that acts as a religion.
This is more of the childish 'well if they won't do it we won't do it'...surly as a member of a western civilization you believe that you should do on to others as you would wish to be done to yourself, and using the failings of others to block progress just isn't a decent reason at all.
...well i haven't immigrated and would like simalar demands (though prob for different reasons granted) is that fair manners?
Bad example...i'm doing my best to think of a better one, but tehre is most certainly a difference between someone being in your home and being in your country.
And finish with a flurry and a couple of insults...good manners bro....Not a flurry of insults young "bro"...Simply the cold hard facts of life.
You're the product of a lifetime of political correctness programming.
I don't believe you're a dummy, just young, impressionable and naive.
Acadamia will brainwash you even more-so than you already are now.
But through lifes many experiances, your views will eventually mature.
That is as long as you don't grow up to be a total loser...Time will tell.
chloe
11-04-2009, 11:14 PM
Here's the problem as I see it. When you take religion out of schools you are essentialy promoting ONE idea over another Since "schools' are supposed to be about learning it is disingenious at best to limit what is being taught....
Religion plays an important part in most peoples lives, so why is it that something that takes center stage so often is considered taboo in the school system. I personaly belive that ALL religions should be touched upon in school. religion should be allowed to be practiced if wanted (no forced participation)
If a parent does not want thier child exposed to certain religions they can opt out of that discussion. The total absence of religion is nothing more than the promotion of athieism......... Which is a philosophy in and of it's self, so how can we promote one over another?????
We should also look at the country that this is being forced upon as well. Italy is home to the "Holy See" its population is predominately Catholic.
Do we all belive that when Muslim countries come into the EU they willabide by the "No Religion" in schools philosophy???
Lets call this what it really is and it is a covert war on Christianity by a select few that are easily offenced.
It's like have Chesswarsnow on the other side screaming how evil it is......:poke:
There should be a choice between the option to learn religion or darwin in school or teach both.
Not a flurry of insults young "bro"...Simply the cold hard facts of life.
You're the product of a lifetime of political correctness programming.
I don't believe you're a dummy, just young, impressionable and naive.
Acadamia will brainwash you even more-so than you already are now.
But through lifes many experiances, your views will eventually mature.
That is as long as you don't grow up to be a total loser...Time will tell.
You know it never ceases to amaze me how many assumptions people feel they can make about me just because I'm young, nevermind the tone with which those assumptions are made.
If you wish to debate then retort my points and I shall counter retort, if however you just wana go on about how I am a loser then leave it out of a thread were others are trying to have a discussion.
@Kathi Indeed, sorry for missing your post, I shall wait til tomorow to give a full reply when I'm not as tired as I currently am,
HogTrash
11-04-2009, 11:57 PM
You know it never ceases to amaze me how many assumptions people feel they can make about me just because I'm young, nevermind the tone with which those assumptions are made.
If you wish to debate then retort my points and I shall counter retort, if however you just wana go on about how I am a loser then leave it out of a thread were others are trying to have a discussion.
@Kathi Indeed, sorry for missing your post, I shall wait til tomorow to give a full reply when I'm not as tired as I currently am,Liberals are basicly clones who all use the same rediculous PC arguments for every issue.
I have debated what you post many times with many liberals and have learned that debate is useless.
Liberals live in a cinderella fantasy land and have intentionally blinded themselves to reality.
Your only hope is that you are young and hopefully intelligent enough to learn of life here in the real world.
Liberals are basicly clones who all use the same rediculous PC arguments for every issue.
I have debated what you post many times with many liberals and have learned that debate is useless.
Liberals live in a cinderella fantasy land and have intentionally blinded themselves to reality.
Your only hope is that you are young and hopefully intelligent enough to learn of life here in the real world.
I'll take that as a no,
Inwhich case could you stop quoting me and thus cluttering threads if you do not wish to discuss the topic :)
I teach in a Catholic School, we teach religion there. Then again, that's why the parents send their children to our school. We have crucifixes in each classroom, even the gym and office. We go to church, as a school, every other week, (We're not that Catholic. (Where my children went, they had to go everyday, before school, that's Catholic. ;)
Crucifixes covering the walls? Does that help any with the pupils education? Also church visits, essentail to their learning? I think not.
[QUOTE]
In 7th grade the curriculum calls for 'comparative religion'. That unit lasts 8 weeks, 5 days a week, 50 minutes per day.
Forgive my lack of understanding of the american schooling system, but what age group would 7th Grade be?, and what exactly do you compare in 'comparative religion'?
It's beyond what they learn in 6th grade Ancient History about polytheism of the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Hindus, Buddhists, and American Indigenous peoples. It's beyond what they learn about the monotheism of Israelites.
Cover as many religions as you like there will always be thousands you can't, i would also dare say that a different aproch is taken when discussing the Christian god and discussing Roman Gods,
Our public high school has a similar class to what is taught in 7th grade religion, it's an optional course that fulfills a social science class in 12th grade. No problem, since each religion is taught as a unit, basic tenants and where the majority religions are found. I nearly forgot, agnosticism and atheism are also addressed.
Try as you may to make it sound like a perfect system that covers all bases, the fact is that it can't, and the very fact that your school is a Catholic school shows as clear as an un-mudded lake the divisions that religion brings to the classroom.
Kathianne
11-05-2009, 07:55 AM
[QUOTE=Kathianne;391691]I teach in a Catholic School, we teach religion there. Then again, that's why the parents send their children to our school. We have crucifixes in each classroom, even the gym and office. We go to church, as a school, every other week, (We're not that Catholic. (Where my children went, they had to go everyday, before school, that's Catholic. ;)
Crucifixes covering the walls? Does that help any with the pupils education? Also church visits, essentail to their learning? I think not.
Forgive my lack of understanding of the american schooling system, but what age group would 7th Grade be?, and what exactly do you compare in 'comparative religion'?
Cover as many religions as you like there will always be thousands you can't, i would also dare say that a different aproch is taken when discussing the Christian god and discussing Roman Gods,
Try as you may to make it sound like a perfect system that covers all bases, the fact is that it can't, and the very fact that your school is a Catholic school shows as clear as an un-mudded lake the divisions that religion brings to the classroom.
While I certainly wasn't looking for your approval, my point was that teaching of religious beliefs belongs in religious schools, NOT public system. As for comparative religions that is often taught in public high schools, under social sciences. In universities, within philosophy or theology departments. Again, I doubt any are looking for your ok.
[QUOTE=Noir;391772]
While I certainly wasn't looking for your approval, my point was that teaching of religious beliefs belongs in religious schools, NOT public system. As for comparative religions that is often taught in public high schools, under social sciences. In universities, within philosophy or theology departments. Again, I doubt any are looking for your ok.
Faith schools are schoools which i can not stand, they are devisive, they segregate, and brainwash.
Kathianne
11-05-2009, 08:20 AM
Faith schools are schoools which i can not stand, they are devisive, they segregate, and brainwash.
LOL! Good for you to know, you won't send yours there. On the other hand, to deny others' the right, is wrong.
LOL! Good for you to know, you won't send yours there. On the other hand, to deny others' the right, is wrong.
Many rights are denied for the greater good of society, I would say that faith schools should be one of them, religion has no place in the classroom, and faith schools compound the problem ten-fold.
Kathianne
11-05-2009, 09:59 AM
Many rights are denied for the greater good of society, I would say that faith schools should be one of them, religion has no place in the classroom, and faith schools compound the problem ten-fold.
Respectfully disagree. Parents have the right to raise their children according to their beliefs and principles. Your parents did, when they chose to not pass on their ideas or perhaps do so only through example. That's fine, you certainly seem fine, however it does go against most child psychology studies. That would fall into the 'liberal type' which has worse results over all than 'authoritarian type'.
chloe
11-05-2009, 10:38 AM
In America Religious people have every right to educate there child whatever way they choose, and personally public or private I think religion should be taught. To say all religions cannot be covered so it is not fair, well all scientists do not agree on every theory, lawyers argue their own interpretation of the laws. This is the expression of free thinking, that we are allowed to be atheiest if we want, we can choose to learn or believe in darwin theories, or we can choose to learn or believe in religious ones. While it would be unfair to insist an atheist take religious classes it seems unfair and atheist insist religious people not learn religion. The best option is to offer an choice for both theories or beliefs, and allow the student to learn both and decide for themselves. But no need to oppress one or the other imo.
chesswarsnow
11-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Its just too easy, adults who care for children, should be decent enough to explain moral things, meaning who is God, and why we are.
2. If you don't explain, and teach children, then they turn into something you never expected.
3. They never learn all the why's, what"s, where"s and whatfor"s.
4. So basically its leading your children out into the world, into the woods, with nothing to support, or protect, or confide in.
5. Where there are known wolves, like the Co$, and many many other cults, and dark teachings.
6. Now you teach your children will, and they will prosper, if you don't, they will suffer unawares, like someone that is a unconious sufferer.
7. Some may never even realize, they suffer, for that's all they have ever known.
8. The Ocultocracy of islam, is a prime example, those in it, never even realize just how bad they have it, for its all they have ever known, its a crime.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. Its just too easy, adults who care for children, should be decent enough to explain moral things, meaning who is God, and why we are.
2. If you don't explain, and teach children, then they turn into something you never expected.
3. They never learn all the why's, what"s, where"s and whatfor"s.
4. So basically its leading your children out into the world, into the woods, with nothing to support, or protect, or confide in.
5. Where there are known wolves, like the Co$, and many many other cults, and dark teachings.
6. Now you teach your children will, and they will prosper, if you don't, they will suffer unawares, like someone that is a unconious sufferer.
7. Some may never even realize, they suffer, for that's all they have ever known.
8. The Ocultocracy of islam, is a prime example, those in it, never even realize just how bad they have it, for its all they have ever known, its a crime.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
I'm not saying don't teach morality, that would be daft, I'm saying don't teach about Gods, Myths and legends as part of morality.
chesswarsnow
11-05-2009, 03:23 PM
Sorry bout that,
I'm not saying don't teach morality, that would be daft, I'm saying don't teach about Gods, Myths and legends as part of morality.
1. There is no bases for morality without God.
Regards,
sirJamesofTexas
Respectfully disagree. Parents have the right to raise their children according to their beliefs and principles. Your parents did, when they chose to not pass on their ideas or perhaps do so only through example. That's fine, you certainly seem fine, however it does go against most child psychology studies. That would fall into the 'liberal type' which has worse results over all than 'authoritarian type'.
They have the right to tell there children that if they do wrong they are going to hell? I know I will be in a minority, but I for one find that quite disturbing.
As for liberal peranting, it is very easy to throw my thoughs in with those who preach no morals, but that is misunderstanding my position, I think that parents should help in the development of their childs moral outlook on life, however, they do not need to use stories such as the day of judgement, walking on water, and turning water to wine to pass on a respectable moral compass.
Sorry bout that,
1. There is no bases for morality without God.
Regards,
sirJamesofTexas
Really? Because I have moral values, and I certainly don't get them from any god.
HogTrash
11-05-2009, 03:50 PM
Really? Because I have moral values, and I certainly don't get them from any god.You support the killing of unborn babies.
You believe homosexuality is not a sick perversion, but a legitimate lifestyle.
You promote confiscating the fruits of one Americans labor to benefit another.
Etc Etc Etc.....I'm just a little confused, Noir?...Exactly what are your "moral values"?
You support the killing of unborn babies.
I do? Gee, news to me,
I have said several times over many threads that abortion is a very complex issue, and while i disagree with it being used as a method of borth control, i can see situations such as rape were it is needed, because of these specail cases i would not say i am against abortion in all cases, but i am certainly not for it as you suggest.
You believe homosexuality is not a sick perversion, but a legitimate lifestyle.
Do i think its a sick perversion? No.
Do i think its a lifestyle choice? No, Bisexuality is a lifestyle choice, i believe that those who are gay are born gay, and while again i'm not greatly in favour of it, i'm not against whatever someone wants to do in the privicy of their own bedroom.
You promote confiscating the fruits of one Americans labor to benefit another.
Now we're on to tax policy? Jezy crezy man, i don't think i've ever had an in-depth discussion on tax policy on this board, so i guess you're just assuming you know what i think? and by such assumptions you are making an idiot of yourself, i think you'd find me surprisingly conservitive on many economic issues, though obviously not on all.
Etc Etc Etc.....I'm just a little confused, Noir?...Exactly what are your "moral values"?
If you're confussed then ask away, i'd be happy to answer, what you shouldn't do however is just assume you know what i think about certain issues,
Kathianne
11-05-2009, 05:11 PM
They have the right to tell there children that if they do wrong they are going to hell? I know I will be in a minority, but I for one find that quite disturbing.
As for liberal peranting, it is very easy to throw my thoughs in with those who preach no morals, but that is misunderstanding my position, I think that parents should help in the development of their childs moral outlook on life, however, they do not need to use stories such as the day of judgement, walking on water, and turning water to wine to pass on a respectable moral compass.
I'd guess that was the way you were raised. Personally I've not told my kids they'd go to hell for doing something wrong. I don't feel required to spell it all out, on the other hand I'd be against your children being indoctrinated in religion in public schools. I also would stand up for the right for private schools to be free to teach their curriculum, as long as aligned with standards.
I'd guess that was the way you were raised.
It was.
Personally I've not told my kids they'd go to hell for doing something wrong.
Fair play, but some do, which i believe is tantamount to child abuse.
I don't feel required to spell it all out, on the other hand I'd be against your children being indoctrinated in religion in public schools.
Indoctrinated is exactly the right word to use, children are indoctrinated into religion via schools and their parents.
I also would stand up for the right for private schools to be free to teach their curriculum, as long as aligned with standards.
So you think its alright for private schools to (in your own words) indoctrinate?
Kathianne
11-05-2009, 06:02 PM
It was.
Fair play, but some do, which i believe is tantamount to child abuse.
.
Indoctrinated is exactly the right word to use, children are indoctrinated into religion via schools and their parents.
So you think its alright for private schools to (in your own words) indoctrinate?
Believe it or not, I'm also in favor of indoctrinating children in knowledge of our government, history, etc. I find Western Civ superior to the East, which takes nothing away from their accomplishments and legacies to the world.
I really do have a belief in letting parents have wide leeway in their methods of raising their children. There are many things I wouldn't teach my children to believe, nor would I say that others shouldn't. When parenting leads to abuse/neglect I've no problem reporting when necessary.
If you asked if I find raising children in a 'values free' way, I'd say it's wrong, IMO. Is it criminal, abusive? If the child doesn't develop self-discipline, worse a conscience, then I'd say they were at minimum neglectful. Of course, you seem to be an exception to that rule.
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