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chloe
12-04-2009, 12:36 PM
Abandoned dogs, cats and livestock from Utah animal shelters are regular subjects of laboratory research at the University of Utah each year.

That's because of a little-known state law that requires government-run pounds to turn animals over to researchers if asked.

The practice gained wider publicity after the animal rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals earlier this month reported findings from one of its agents who spent eight months working undercover at University of Utah research facilities.

University officials have vigorously denied PETA complaints about neglectful and harmful conditions at the labs. They acknowledge use of shelter animals in research for nearly two decades.

They said they only collect animals from shelters willing to participate and add that pound animals are steered toward nonlethal experiments. Cats and dogs at the lab get excellent veterinary care, and survivors are placed into a volunteer-run adoption program, they said.

Roughly a third of the 276 shelter animals taken to the university's labs in 2007 and 2008 were later adopted, according to state records.

"The public needs to understand that we are all pet owners," said Jack Taylor, director of the university's Office of Comparative Medicine and a veterinary pathologist. "These animals are used in research that is helpful to humans and animals and then returned to a normal existence as soon as possible."

The Humane Society of Utah wants a repeal of the law that allows animals from government-funded shelters to be used for research.

"Mandatory pound seizure is disastrous to appropriate sheltering of companion animals," said Holly Sizemore, executive director of No More Homeless Pets in Utah, a nonprofit aimed at ending animal euthanasia.

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/state-and-regional/utah/article_7c63e2e0-2d4c-5216-bdcb-b46a20fe4e00.html

avatar4321
12-04-2009, 01:07 PM
Not terribly surprised. The U of U is of the devil...

Noir
12-04-2009, 01:16 PM
=/
Make you sick ta think about it,

cat slave
12-06-2009, 12:12 AM
Before we brought about "pound reform" in Nashville in the early 90s they
participated in pound seizure and kept Vanderbilt supplied and most likely
provided "material" for dog fighting training....going by some conversations
I had with men there to "get dogs" and watching the interaction with the
pound workers. It was a hell hole there but better now...still too much
killing going on.

cat slave
12-06-2009, 12:13 AM
Not terribly surprised. The U of U is of the devil...

Does Best Friends not address things like that?

chloe
12-06-2009, 08:52 AM
Does Best Friends not address things like that?

No, they don't. My parents have donated to best friends, they are a fine organization but not an activist group. The shelters and humane society have a big problm out here, For the past 6 months they have been running stories about people abandoning their pets, and the shelters are in need of adoptions and foster homes for pets. They have euthanized so many this past year I guess they are selling them off for research now. There is not alot of animal activism out here, some but not alot.

cat slave
12-08-2009, 12:27 AM
Well, I guess Best Friends has to set the "gold standard" for sanctuaries
and others address the activism part.

Yes, this has been a bad year for pets. A nearby county shelter did a "free"
weekend....they gave away free animals, all fixed of course but thats nothing
Ive ever seen before. Theres been a lot on the news about shelters and ACs
being inundated by owner surrender animals, due to a large part they say to
the economy. Another shelter in Nashville had a program going to help people
keep their cats, food, litter etc.

We live in a very rural area and this county in the Upper Cumberland region
of TN has no animal services at all. Not even a vet. We have to drive
45 minutes to get to a vet. Our road is also a dead end on the river and
many animals get dumped there and I dont go there anymore because we
have all we can handle!

Today there was a Jack Russell on my road and it acted lost, no collar,
but we just had to go on by and hope surely some dog person would
pick it up. We have 11 large dogs already.....saturated, completely.

Animals have a hard time even when the economy is good but are
really suffering now.

I hate the practice of vivisection. With all the technology why is it
still around???

Noir
12-08-2009, 03:42 AM
Out of the 68 views that this topic has had, i wonder how many people have came in and gone 'egh, thats disgusting, this must stop' and then sat down that night to some freshly murdered lumps of flesh and thought 'delicious'

SassyLady
12-08-2009, 04:01 AM
Out of the 68 views that this topic has had, i wonder how many people have came in and gone 'egh, thats disgusting, this must stop' and then sat down that night to some freshly murdered lumps of flesh and thought 'delicious'

Me................I did!!!! Well, it wasn't freshly murdered, it was somewhat aged before I incorporated it into my meal, and yes, it was quite delicious.

I think I have more of the "hunter" in me than the "gatherer" and I have blood type O positive so this what I believe:


Blood Type O

Blood Type O is the oldest blood type in the world (evolved around 40,000 BC), and is traced back to CroMagnon man. People with Blood Type O have the hardiest digestive systems. They are the meat-eaters. Persons with Blood Type O need animal protein for good health, as well as vegetables and fruits. However, carbohydrates should be kept to a minimum, since the Blood Type O person cannot digest carbohydrates very well, especially wheat products containing gluten. This person will do well on a high animal protein, low carbohydrate diet; and, dairy products should be kept to a minimum. Persons with Blood Type O produce a lot of hydrochloric acid in their stomachs, and it is this great abundance of stomach acid that allows them to digest animal protein favorably. And, because their digestive systems already contain a lot of stomach acid, they should avoid drinking coffee, since coffee will cause them to produce even more stomach acid, and this tends to make them prone to peptic ulcers, especially if they are constantly under a great deal of stress. They should drink more green tea, instead of coffee. Persons with Blood Type O tend to have low thyroid and sluggish metabolisms; therefore, they should supply their diets with sea kelp and seafood to obtain natural iodine to stimulate their thyroids. The best exercises for these persons are the vigorous workouts like jogging, power walking, aerobics, weight training, etc. The harder they exercise, the better they will feel. Get the heart rate going, and sweat up a storm to burn calories, alleviate stress and eliminate depression!

http://www.runtheplanet.com/trainingracing/nutrition/bloodtype.asp

Noir
12-08-2009, 04:23 AM
Me................I did!!!! Well, it wasn't freshly murdered, it was somewhat aged before I incorporated it into my meal, and yes, it was quite delicious.

I really can't put my thoughts about this into words, but you're not stupid, so i fail to see why you just chose to act is such a hypocritical manor.



I think I have more of the "hunter" in me than the "gatherer" and I have blood type O positive so this what I believe:

http://www.runtheplanet.com/trainingracing/nutrition/bloodtype.asp


Wow, looked up the website, thats what you chose to set your diet by?



Other foods to avoid
Meat: bacon; goose; ham; pork. Seafood: barracuda, catfish, caviar, conch, herring (pickled), lox (smoked salmon), octopus.

Cheeses & Dairy: American cheese, blue cheese, brie, buttermilk, Camembert, casein, cheddar cheese, colby, cottage cheese, cream cheese, edam, emmenthal, goat milk, gouda, gruyere, ice cream, Jarlsburg; kefir, Monterey Jack, munster, parmesan, provolone, Neufchatel, ricotta, skim or 2% milk, string cheese, Swiss cheese, whey, whole milk, yogurt, all varieties.

Oils: corn, cottonseed, peanut, safflower;

Nuts & Seeds: brazil nuts, cashew, litchi, peanuts, peanut butter, pistachios, poppy seeds.

Beans & Legumes: copper, kidney, navy, tamarind, lentils (domestic, green & red).

Cereals: cornflakes, cornmeal, cream of wheat, familia, farina, grape nuts, seven-grain, shredded wheat, wheat bran, wheat germ.

Grains & Pastas: bulgur wheat flour, couscous flour, durum wheat flour, gluten flour, graham flour, soba noodles, semolina pasta, spinach pasta, sprouted wheat flour, white flour, whole wheat flour.

Vegetables: avocado, cabbage (Chinese, red, white), cauliflower, white & yellow corn, eggplant, domestic & Shiitake mushrooms, mustard greens, olives (black, Greek, Spanish), potatoes (red & white), alfalfa sprouts, brussel sprouts;

Fruits: blackberries, coconuts, melon (cantaloupe & honeydew), oranges, plantains, rhubarb, strawberries, tangerines;

Juices: apple, apple cider, cabbage, orange.
Spices: capers, cinnamon, cornstarch, corn syrup, nutmeg, black & white pepper, vanilla, vinegar (apple cider, balsamic, red & white wine).
Condiments: ketchup, mayonnaise, pickles (kosher, dill, sweet & sweet pickle relish).

Herbal Teas: alfalfa, aloe, burdock, coltsfoot, corn silk, echinacea, gentian, goldenseal, red clover, rhubarb, Saint-John's Wort, senna, shepherd's purse, strawberry leaf, yellow dock.

Beverages: coffee (regular & decaf), distilled liquor, all sodas, black teas.


Thats quite a list!

SassyLady
12-08-2009, 06:21 AM
I really can't put my thoughts about this into words, but you're not stupid, so i fail to see why you just chose to act is such a hypocritical manor.


How am I a hypocrite? I grew up on a farm raising and killing our food. some of our food we didn't raise, went out and hunted it. Just because I have the capacity to kill and eat an animal does not preclude believing they should be treated with respect and blessed when they do sacrifice themselves or us.

And just because there are some people running around in a dither and flapping their hands because there are meat eaters in the world, doesn't mean meat eaters need to feel guilty about something.:cool:

SassyLady
12-08-2009, 06:27 AM
I really can't put my thoughts about this into words, but you're not stupid, so i fail to see why you just chose to act is such a hypocritical manor.

Wow, looked up the website, thats what you chose to set your diet by?

thats quite a list!

Perhaps you are a blood type A


Blood Type A

People with Blood Type A evolved from the hunter/meat-eater to the agrarian, and were the farmers and grain gatherers. This blood type evolved between 25,000 and 15,000 bC. They have fragile digestive systems. These people cannot tolerate animal protein well, and should be the proverbial, classic "vegetarian" of the human species. They also are usually lactose intolerant, as well. Persons with Blood Type A should avoid animal protein and dairy products, and would do well with whole grains, legumes, fruits and vegetables. Tofu and Hawaiian Spirulina should become the Blood Type A person's best friends, as these foods contains high-quality vegetable protein! Persons with Blood Type A do not produce enough hydrochloric acid in their stomachs, and that is why they have a difficult time digesting animal protein well. This also gives them a predisposition toward getting stomach cancer, and should never eat smoked or cured meats due to the sodium nitrites in them. Animal protein and dairy products tend to rot and ferment in their digestive tracts, and the toxic bacteria backs up into their tissues and muscles, thereby causing digestive distress. A lack of sufficient hydrochloric acid in their stomachs is another reason that persons with Blood Type A do not absorb Vitamin B12 properly from the foods they eat. Vitamin B12 is normally found in red meat, although B12 is also found in superior vegetable protein foods such as Hawaiian Spirulina, soy products and sea kelp. This inability to absorb Vitamin B12 sufficiently from food tends to make the person with Blood Type A prone to pernicious anemia. Therefore, supplementing the diet with Vitamin B12 is critical. Also recommended is supplementation with digestive enzymes such as betaine, bromelain and papain. Bromelain is derived from pineapple, and assists with the digestion of animal protein. Betaine will help to increase the amount of hydrochloric acid in their stomachs. The best exercise for these persons is not the heavy, vigorous workouts, but more calming, centering exercises like Tai Chi, Hatha Yoga and golfing. These soothing types of exercises will relieve the Blood Type A person's stress in a more beneficial way.

Foods that encourage weight gain - Meat; dairy food; kidney beans; lima beans; wheat (in overabundance); and, of course, sugar and white flour.

Foods that encourage weight loss - Vegetables oils, such as olive and flaxseed; soy foods; spirulina; vegetables; pineapple.

Other foods to avoid

Meat & Poultry: bacon, beef, ground beef, buffalo, duck, goose, ham, hart, lamb, liver, mutton, partridge, pheasant, pork, rabbit, veal, venison, quail.
Seafood: anchovy, barracuda, beluga, bluefish, bluegill bass, catfish, caviar, clam, conch, crab, crayfish, eel, flounder, frog, gray sole, haddock, hake, halibut, herring (fresh & pickled), lobster, lox (smoked salmon), mussels, octopus, oysters, scallop, shad, shrimp, sole, squid (calamari), striped bass, tilefish, turtle.
Cheese/Dairy: American, blue cheese, brie, butter, buttermilk, Camembert, casein, cheddar, colby, cottage, cream cheese, edam, Emmenthal, gouda, gruyere, ice cream, Jarlsberg, Monterey jack, Munster, Parmesan, provolone, Neufchatel, sherbet, skim or 2% milk, Swiss, whey, whole milk.
Oils: corn, cottonseed oil, peanut, safflower, sesame.
Nuts & Seeds: brazil, cashews, pistachios.
Beans & Legumes: copper, garbanzo, kidney, lima, navy, red beans, tamarind beans.
Cereals: cream of wheat, familia, farina, granola, grape nuts, wheat germ, seven grain, shredded wheat, wheat bran.
Breads & Muffins: English muffins, high-protein bread, matzos wheat, multi-grain bread, pumpernickel, wheat bran muffins, whole wheat bread.
Grains & Pastas: white & whole wheat flour, semolina & spinach pasta.
Vegetables: cabbage (Chinese, red, white), eggplant, lima beans, mushroom (domestic), olives (black, Greek, Spanish), peppers (green, jalapeno, red, yellow), potatoes (sweet, red, white), tomatoes, yams.
Fruits: bananas, coconuts, mangoes, melon (cantaloupe & honeydew), oranges, papayas, plantains, rhubarb, tangerines.
Juices: orange, papaya, tomato.
Spices: capers, plain gelatin, pepper (black, cayenne, peppercorns, red pepper flakes, white), vinegar (apple cider, balsamic, red wine, white), wintergreen.
Condiments: ketchup, mayonnaise, pickles, pickle relish, Worcestershire sauce.
Herbal Teas: catnip, cayenne, corn silk, red clover, rhubarb, yellow dock. Beverages: beer, distilled liquor, seltzer water, all sodas, black teas

Noir
12-08-2009, 07:01 AM
I'm O neg.

chloe
12-08-2009, 08:27 AM
I'm O neg.

Noir I can't stand the thought of animals being killed, I feel bad when I see them at the zoo all caged up, and even thinking about cats and dogs needing homes makes me sad, but I still eat meat. So I suppose I must not feel bad enough. At least I admit it.

Noir
12-08-2009, 12:50 PM
How am I a hypocrite? I grew up on a farm raising and killing our food. some of our food we didn't raise, went out and hunted it. Just because I have the capacity to kill and eat an animal does not preclude believing they should be treated with respect and blessed when they do sacrifice themselves or us.

And just because there are some people running around in a dither and flapping their hands because there are meat eaters in the world, doesn't mean meat eaters need to feel guilty about something.:cool:

Sweet jezy crezy, you honestly have the gaul to suggest that you think animals should be treated with respect? Is that after you slit their throats? or after you pull out their guts? or after you eat their flesh?

Suggesting that you have respect for creatures that you will happily murder and eat is akin to a rapist having respect for his victims, i.e. maybe in their own twisted mind, but that is not the kind of mind from which you should take a fair judgement i'm sure you'd agree.

I do not run about flapping my hands, meat eaters and murderers exist and they always will. The fact that i happened to point how the hypocrisy of reactions could hardly be considered an over-reaction by any stretch of the imagination

I'm not trying to make you feel guilty about anything, you were the one that decided you feel bad about the story in the OP, i just find it stupendous that you can not then relate the same thoughts to other aspects of your life,

Noir
12-08-2009, 12:54 PM
Noir I can't stand the thought of animals being killed, I feel bad when I see them at the zoo all caged up, and even thinking about cats and dogs needing homes makes me sad, but I still eat meat. So I suppose I must not feel bad enough. At least I admit it.

This is the reaction that i simply can not stand, and yet it is a common one, when some agrees that what happens is horrid, and yet they just don't care enough about such heinous acts to make a few simple lifestyle changes. To think something is right and thus support it is understandable, if not agreeable. But to think that something is wrong and yet support it anyway because its 'not wrong enough' is simply baffling, to me anyway.

chloe
12-08-2009, 01:32 PM
This is the reaction that i simply can not stand, and yet it is a common one, when some agrees that what happens is horrid, and yet they just don't care enough about such heinous acts to make a few simple lifestyle changes. To think something is right and thus support it is understandable, if not agreeable. But to think that something is wrong and yet support it anyway because its 'not wrong enough' is simply baffling, to me anyway.

Im sure its baffling to all animal rights activists. Yet this is how I am. I don't try to cover it up do I?

Noir
12-08-2009, 01:52 PM
Im sure its baffling to all animal rights activists. Yet this is how I am. I don't try to cover it up do I?

Well how do you explain it to yourself if you know its wrong but just don't care enough to do anything about it?

chloe
12-08-2009, 03:40 PM
Well how do you explain it to yourself if you know its wrong but just don't care enough to do anything about it?

Noir what I said was it is sad about the animals and I don't like to think about them being killed or not having homes or being sold to u of u for science research, but I acknowledged l still eat meat. I would be happy to give you an insight into my thinking process about meat eating but I suspect that you have no real interest in knowing how my mind works rather you want to debate vegan non meating lifetstyle in an argument fashion. If you want a sincere answer as to what I think in reference to my own animal eating Im happy to oblige, but I am not interested in your self righteous judgement. Do Vegans feel bad about women killing unborn babies>?

Noir
12-08-2009, 03:50 PM
Noir what I said was it is sad about and I don't like to think about them being killed but still eat meat. I would be happy to give you an insight into my thinking process about meat eating but I suspect that you have no real interest in knowing how my mind works rather you want to debate vegan non meating lifetstyle in an argument fashion. If you want a sincere answer as to what I think in reference to my own animal eating Im happy to oblige, but I am not interested in your self righteous judgement. Do Vegans feel bad about women killing unborn babies>?

But i am looking for a sincere answer, because i can not understand how you would believe that murdering animals is wrong, and yet still support their murder.

Also just a quite point of reference, i am a vegetarian not a vegan, just incase that ends up causing confusion,

As for vegans and abortion, i have no idea, i would guess the majority are against it, but i can certainly not speak for anyone but myself. and as for my beliefs on the matter i am against abortion in general, but whenever it comes to specific cases i am not certain, inwhich case i would put my faith in the liberty of the women.

SassyLady
12-08-2009, 06:13 PM
Sweet jezy crezy, you honestly have the gaul to suggest that you think animals should be treated with respect? Is that after you slit their throats? or after you pull out their guts? or after you eat their flesh?

Well, before I slit their throats of course, when I've thanked them for sacrificing their life for my sustenance.


Suggesting that you have respect for creatures that you will happily murder and eat is akin to a rapist having respect for his victims, i.e. maybe in their own twisted mind, but that is not the kind of mind from which you should take a fair judgement i'm sure you'd agree.

No, I completely disagree with you.


I do not run about flapping my hands, meat eaters and murderers exist and they always will. The fact that i happened to point how the hypocrisy of reactions could hardly be considered an over-reaction by any stretch of the imagination.

When you grow up you will discover that not everything is black and white, either/or.....etc.


I'm not trying to make you feel guilty about anything, you were the one that decided you feel bad about the story in the OP, i just find it stupendous that you can not then relate the same thoughts to other aspects of your life,

I have no control over how others treat the animals they encounter in their daily life.........I do have control over my actions and even though I can birth, feed and raise animals in my backyard and converse with them daily, I can also kill them for food on my table when it's time. That is their purpose. How you cannot understand that is beyond me.

Gaffer
12-08-2009, 06:51 PM
Noir you really need to look up the definition of murder. And not the peta definition.

Noir
12-08-2009, 07:16 PM
Noir you really need to look up the definition of murder. And not the peta definition.

I don't care for PETA, on the whole they are idiots,

and the end of the day it is needless death, and a death for no reason in my book is murder.

Noir
12-08-2009, 07:23 PM
Well, before I slit their throats of course, when I've thanked them for sacrificing their life for my sustenance.

As i'm sure a rapist bless their victims sacrifice for their pleasure.


No, I completely disagree with you.

Care to explain the differnce? You are justifying your own means by saying you think you are being respectful, anybody could do that about anything if they want.



When you grow up you will discover that not everything is black and white, either/or.....etc.

...no its pretty simple, you can support the murder of animals for food, or you can oppose it, where's the grey area exactly?




I have no control over how others treat the animals they encounter in their daily life.........I do have control over my actions and even though I can birth, feed and raise animals in my backyard and converse with them daily, I can also kill them for food on my table when it's time. That is their purpose. How you cannot understand that is beyond me.

Yes you "can" kill them, as can i, but does that mean you must? No. Does that mean you need to? No. Yet you chose to murder these animals anyway. And it is not their purpose to exist so you may eat their felsh, less you have decided it is (again self justification) I would also notice you're Avatar, i assume you don't murder and eat the flesh of dogs?

HogTrash
12-08-2009, 07:38 PM
Out of the 68 views that this topic has had, i wonder how many people have came in and gone 'egh, thats disgusting, this must stop' and then sat down that night to some freshly murdered lumps of flesh and thought 'delicious'Guilty as hell on a daily basis.

Noir
12-08-2009, 07:45 PM
Guilty as hell on a daily basis.

I expected no less, sir.

SassyLady
12-08-2009, 08:06 PM
As i'm sure a rapist bless their victims sacrifice for their pleasure.

Don't know, never asked a rapist - have you? And, if you must compare me to a murdering rapist because I choose to raise, kill and eat animals then do what you must. It will not change who I am or what I do, but it might make you feel better about yourself.


Care to explain the differnce? You are justifying your own means by saying you think you are being respectful, anybody could do that about anything if they want.

I don't need to justify anything to you....because you are not the one I will be judged by.



...no its pretty simple, you can support the murder of animals for food, or you can oppose it, where's the grey area exactly? Because YOU choose to classify it as murder and I don't.............you are saying it's either/or black/white.........neither/both of us is right/wrong, therefore, it must be gray.



Yes you "can" kill them, as can i, but does that mean you must? No.

Yes I must, because I don't eat them while they are alive.


Does that mean you need to? No. Yet you chose to murder these animals anyway. And it is not their purpose to exist so you may eat their felsh, less you have decided it is (again self justification) I would also notice you're Avatar, i assume you don't murder and eat the flesh of dogs?

Yes, I choose to kill animals for my own consumption. And those that I raise are for that very purpose.

As for dogs, I have chosen to keep them as pets rather than as a source of food. However, there are many cultures that will use them as a source for food.

Noir, I don't hold you in contempt for not wanting to eat animal flesh..........I'm not judging you. Do what you feel is right. You have done your due diligence in stating your opinion, and trying to get me to change my stance, however, you'll get no further with me on this. We will just have to agree that we disagree on this issue.

You take care.

HogTrash
12-08-2009, 08:29 PM
I have eaten dog in the Phillipines...

It was actually pretty good but anything would probably taste good when it's smothered in BBQ sauce and you haven't eat all day and have drank way too many San Miguels. :alcoholic:

chloe
12-08-2009, 08:34 PM
But i am looking for a sincere answer, because i can not understand how you would believe that murdering animals is wrong, and yet still support their murder.

Also just a quite point of reference, i am a vegetarian not a vegan, just incase that ends up causing confusion,

As for vegans and abortion, i have no idea, i would guess the majority are against it, but i can certainly not speak for anyone but myself. and as for my beliefs on the matter i am against abortion in general, but whenever it comes to specific cases i am not certain, inwhich case i would put my faith in the liberty of the women.

I am not sure whether you are looking for a sincere answer. But I will give you mine, I believe alot of things humans do in life is wrong. In my own personal history I have made choices that I knew was wrong but did it anyway. For instance when I did drugs and drank on the job, and lied to people I loved and stole from people I loved, I knew it was wrong but at the time I was not able to stop myself, I had an addiction that I didn't want to stop, the pain for me was not bad enough to stop even though it hurt people I loved. Finally at some point in my life I had my own awakening so to speak and quit all the drugs n drinking. I feel bad about eating meat and I have periodically tried to stop eating it, but much like drugs I find it is hard for me to stop wanting meat on occasion, I crave it. While it doesnt get me high and its not a necessity I was raised all my life on meat and I like the taste of it. I find my choice selfish and I feel bad about it, but I have not been able to stop eating it. What I have come to understand about myself is that no matter how bad I feel about something, that I won't change my own behavior or actions until I'm ready to and ready does not come to me instantly. I could force myself to do it, but it would be ingenuine because my frame of mind cares more about my what my appetite desires then an animals life. I am not justifying myself I am explaining to you in an honest way why i have not made a change even though i feel bad about it. I wish I could understand why vegans or vegetarians are ok with abortion. I feel like if they are against animals dying it makes sense they should be against babies dying, afterall if a baby is not aborted and allowed to take natures course it is born a human being, so why wouldnt that be as important as animal rights. But I guess some people value animals more and I value humans more.

Noir
12-08-2009, 08:38 PM
Don't know, never asked a rapist - have you? And, if you must compare me to a murdering rapist because I choose to raise, kill and eat animals then do what you must. It will not change who I am or what I do, but it might make you feel better about yourself.

Never asked one myself, merely using it as an example to show how daft self justification is.


I don't need to justify anything to you....because you are not the one I will be judged by.

Indeedy you don't have to, but this being a forum discussion such things are kinda needed to keep the discussion going. Though its clear you'd rather not. Also nice to note the 'i'll murder animals if i want and let god judge me more it' Many monstrosities have spawned from such trains of thoughts,



Because YOU choose to classify it as murder and I don't.............you are saying it's either/or black/white.........neither/both of us is right/wrong, therefore, it must be gray.

It is unnecessary killing. That is black and white. I call it murder, you don't, thats a moot point. What is not moot is the fact that it is a death for no reason.



Yes I must, because I don't eat them while they are alive.
Yes, I choose to kill animals for my own consumption. And those that I raise are for that very purpose.

More death for no reason. They are for that purpose because you decide that is there purpose, that is more self justification, yet it doesn't stand up to much. After all if you raised a child with the purpose of slaughtering them at 5 years old that would not make slaughtering them any more just.


As for dogs, I have chosen to keep them as pets rather than as a source of food. However, there are many cultures that will use them as a source for food.

I know they do, it disgusts me, as any other animal, but yet again this is an area for hypocrisy, as many will happily eat animal flesh, be recoil at the thought of murdering and eating their pet dog or cat.


Noir, I don't hold you in contempt for not wanting to eat animal flesh..........I'm not judging you. Do what you feel is right. You have done your due diligence in stating your opinion, and trying to get me to change my stance, however, you'll get no further with me on this. We will just have to agree that we disagree on this issue.

Likewise, do what you feel is right, but when you think the OP is wrong i fail to see how you think eating animal flesh is right, but you've made it clear you wish not to continue, laters.

SassyLady
12-08-2009, 08:42 PM
I wish I could understand why vegans or vegetarians are ok with abortion. I feel like if they are against animals dying it makes sense they should be against babies dying, afterall if a baby is not aborted and allowed to take natures course it is born a human being, so why wouldnt that be as important as animal rights. But I guess some people value animals more and I value humans more.

I wonder the same things myself Chloe.

SassyLady
12-08-2009, 08:48 PM
Likewise, do what you feel is right, but when you think the OP is wrong i fail to see how you think eating animal flesh is right, but you've made it clear you wish not to continue, laters.

The OP is not about raising animals for human consumption.....it is about using abandoned pets for research. One can disagree with this issue and still feel eating farm animals is appropriate.

You are the one that took the giant leap and accused people that eat animal flesh as not being upset about the use of pets for research.

Two separate issues.

HogTrash
12-08-2009, 08:49 PM
I wonder the same things myself Chloe.Whoever claimed the workings of the liberal mind was rational?

Noir
12-08-2009, 09:04 PM
@chloe

I did start writting a reply, but i'm shattered so i'm gonna pop for the night, and so will make my reply tomorrow morn.

chloe
12-11-2009, 10:55 AM
@chloe

I did start writting a reply, but i'm shattered so i'm gonna pop for the night, and so will make my reply tomorrow morn.

I'm thinking shattered means tired, I hope you are just busy and didn't come down with a cold. Get caught up on your rest then:cool:

Abbey Marie
12-14-2009, 06:47 PM
=/
Make you sick ta think about it,

Yup. That about sums it up.

And no, I don't eat cows (adults or calves), pigs, lambs, deer, etc., etc. I do eat fish and shellfish.

Noir
12-14-2009, 06:53 PM
Yup. That about sums it up.

And no, I don't eat cows (adults or calves), pigs, lambs, deer, etc., etc. I do eat fish and shellfish.

Awk Abbey dear, you're a Pescetarian? I understand you even less that the full on meat eaters,

Jeff
12-14-2009, 07:02 PM
Sweet jezy crezy, you honestly have the gaul to suggest that you think animals should be treated with respect? Is that after you slit their throats? or after you pull out their guts? or after you eat their flesh?

Suggesting that you have respect for creatures that you will happily murder and eat is akin to a rapist having respect for his victims, i.e. maybe in their own twisted mind, but that is not the kind of mind from which you should take a fair judgement i'm sure you'd agree.

I do not run about flapping my hands, meat eaters and murderers exist and they always will. The fact that i happened to point how the hypocrisy of reactions could hardly be considered an over-reaction by any stretch of the imagination

I'm not trying to make you feel guilty about anything, you were the one that decided you feel bad about the story in the OP, i just find it stupendous that you can not then relate the same thoughts to other aspects of your life,

Noir I have a question, what do you think of Abortion ?

Noir
12-14-2009, 07:09 PM
Noir I have a question, what do you think of Abortion ?

Abortion is an ultra complex issue, and one which i can't fall one way or the other on. At its simpliest level i am totally against it, abortion should not be a form of birth control. Anyone who has sex in anyway must accept the consequences that come with it.
However once it becomes more complex, i.e. rape cases ect then i really am not sure, and so for the moment i would side with the rights of the woman not to carry her rapists baby,

Jeff
12-14-2009, 07:14 PM
Abortion is an ultra complex issue, and one which i can't fall one way or the other on. At its simpliest level i am totally against it, abortion should not be a form of birth control. Anyone who has sex in anyway must accept the consequences that come with it.
However once it becomes more complex, i.e. rape cases ect then i really am not sure, and so for the moment i would side with the rights of the woman not to carry her rapists baby,

My hats off to ya Noir , I feel the same way

I asked cause although I respect your views on eating meat I have spoke to and have a few friends that feel eating meat is murdering a animal , but abortion is ok, to me that should be the definition of hypocrite

Noir
12-14-2009, 07:31 PM
Sorry this has taken an age for me to reply to, but better late than never,


I am not sure whether you are looking for a sincere answer. But I will give you mine, I believe alot of things humans do in life is wrong. In my own personal history I have made choices that I knew was wrong but did it anyway. For instance when I did drugs and drank on the job, and lied to people I loved and stole from people I loved, I knew it was wrong but at the time I was not able to stop myself, I had an addiction that I didn't want to stop, the pain for me was not bad enough to stop even though it hurt people I loved. Finally at some point in my life I had my own awakening so to speak and quit all the drugs n drinking.

Well i'm glad you came to sense, but this whole thing really baffles me,



I feel bad about eating meat and I have periodically tried to stop eating it, but much like drugs I find it is hard for me to stop wanting meat on occasion, I crave it.

You don't have to stop wanting meat, that is uncontrollable, like personally i never want it, but i know other veggies who do every now and then, the key is not letting your wants rule your life.



While it doesnt get me high and its not a necessity I was raised all my life on meat and I like the taste of it.I find my choice selfish and I feel bad about it, but I have not been able to stop eating it.

Again this baffles me, you know its wrong, but you just don't care enough to do anything about it? Thats really quite a shocking stance in my opinion.



What I have come to understand about myself is that no matter how bad I feel about something, that I won't change my own behavior or actions until I'm ready to and ready does not come to me instantly.

I would of thought the knowlegde of the wrong-doing would give you will enough to change, alas not it seems.


I could force myself to do it, but it would be ingenuine because my frame of mind cares more about my what my appetite desires then an animals life. I am not justifying myself I am explaining to you in an honest way why i have not made a change even though i feel bad about it.

Well honest it may be, but when you say that you know something is wrong, but you couldn't be bothered doing anything about it i would really wonder where your mindset is at.


I wish I could understand why vegans or vegetarians are ok with abortion. I feel like if they are against animals dying it makes sense they should be against babies dying, afterall if a baby is not aborted and allowed to take natures course it is born a human being, so why wouldnt that be as important as animal rights. But I guess some people value animals more and I value humans more.

Well i've made my views on abortion clear over the course of this and other topics, i would guess that those who argue for abortion but are veggies would centre their debate on the fact that you are not aborting a baby, but a grouping of cells that will become a baby, but thats their arugment, not mine.

And i value human lives more than an animals anyday, that however does not mean we can murder them at will because we feel a little peckish.

Noir
12-14-2009, 07:37 PM
My hats off to ya Noir , I feel the same way

I asked cause although I respect your views on eating meat I have spoke to and have a few friends that feel eating meat is murdering a animal , but abortion is ok, to me that should be the definition of hypocrite

Indeedy i find it hard to make sense of such logic,

However i would guess they'd argue that a ball of cells has no feelings or thoughts ect, whenever an animal getting its throat slit does. Ergo for comparison you would have to ask if they find animal abortions acceptable. Though this is all quiet a specific line of thought to have to follow.

chloe
12-14-2009, 09:20 PM
Sorry this has taken an age for me to reply to, but better late than never,



Well i'm glad you came to sense, but this whole thing really baffles me,




You don't have to stop wanting meat, that is uncontrollable, like personally i never want it, but i know other veggies who do every now and then, the key is not letting your wants rule your life.

And i value human lives more than an animals anyday, that however does not mean we can murder them at will because we feel a little peckish.

To be honest with you, your response is very disappointing, it seems pretty judgemental, even though I asked you not to be. I don't know why the nature of addiction would be something of a hard concept for you to understand, but I know I have heard that once some animals have tasted blood they crave it, my point on addiction was you don't make a life change until you are ready, and when I am I will. Were you raised a vegetarian? You said your friends have craved it but basically don't give in, oh so at some point they have been meat eaters and made a life changing decision. hmm, they must have been ready to do it, is that baffling? People change when they want to and not sooner. Usually once they make up there mind to be determined they stick with it.As fas as abortion, no vegetarians and vegans should not support it, dont support eating eggs dont support killing human babies. Additionally this excerpt from the abortion review folks shows how their intetion to play down killing a baby is for the benefit of science research , they know damn well it is a baby and that if it is not aborted it is born a baby.

Abortion and fetal tissue donation
Naomi Pfeffer raised issues around fetal tissue and the potential for tissue from aborted fetuses to be used in stem cell research.
Professor Pfeffer argued that women having an abortion should be approached to donate fetal material medical research. She also took the opportunity to outline the findings of small scale focus group research undertaken into the views of women who have had abortions about donating fetal tissue. Many began with the view that donation could be a positive thing to come out of their unintended pregnancy - however, concerns were quickly raised. One concern was that, as stated by the Polkinghorne guidelines, women are not allowed to know in detail what the tissue they donate would be used for. According to Pfeffer, some women felt that this would be important in their decision whether to donate, as they felt a ‘duty of care’ to the fetus.
Guidance in this area was last updated when the Polkinghorne guidelines were published in 1989. The Department of Health recognised the need to update this guidance in 2004 but as yet there have been no moves to update it. Professor Pfeffer called for a full review, public discussion and regulatory guidance in order to address the concerns clinicians feel about asking women having an abortion about fetal tissue donation, and assist researchers who need such tissue in order to carry out medical research.


http://www.abortionreview.org/index.php/site/article/466/

Noir
12-14-2009, 10:03 PM
To be honest with you, your response is very disappointing, it seems pretty judgemental even though I asked you not to be.

As i have said, you were the one that did the judging, when you said that you were being selfish ect.


I don't know why the nature of addiction would be something of a hard concept for you to understand,

Because at the end of the day addiction is a choice, and you either give in or you don't. I memo when i first meet my last girlfriend, she was ruining her life through drugs, mainly Alcohol, Cigarettes and Cannabis. Cigs she consumed daily, and Alcohol & Cannabis 2-3 days a week. In the 2 years that we were together she often brought up that she was craving one or another of them, and yet in those 2 years she did not get drunk, stonned or smoke a cig once. Because any time it was mentioned the choice was spelt out clearly, because thats all addictions are, choices. By giving into the addiction you are chosing to fail. I will also have it noted that in the past few months after we broke up she has started taking drugs again, and thus failed herself.

You may see this as harsh, the idea of failing, but life is allot more black and white than people try to pretend. At the end of the day you are not forced to do anything, you chose, words like addiction try to mask this, but addiction is just another choice.


but I know I have heard that once some animals have tasted blood they crave it, my point on addiction was you don't make a life change until you are ready, and when I am I will.

Fairplay, but don't blame the addiction.


Were you raised a vegetarian?

No.


You said your friends have craved it but basically don't give in, oh so at some point they have been meat eaters and made a life changing decision.

Indeedy they did.


hmm, they must have been ready to do it, is that baffling? People change when they want to and not sooner.

Speaking from my perspective, i was happy enough to eat meat when i was young and ignorant. Then i learned of what happens, how these poor animals are raised, some of which never see sunlight, and then slaughtered so we may savour the flavour of their murder. As soon as that was made clear to me there was no choice, or waiting to be ready. That was it. Maybe thats an odd way to go about it, but i can only think of it as perfectly natural,


Usually once they make up there mind to be determined they stick with it.As far as abortion, no vegetarians and vegans should not support it, dont support eating eggs dont support killing human babies. Additionally this excerpt from the abortion review folks shows how their intetion to play down killing a baby is for the benefit of science research , they know damn well it is a baby and that if it is not aborted it is born a baby.

Abortion and fetal tissue donation
Naomi Pfeffer raised issues around fetal tissue and the potential for tissue from aborted fetuses to be used in stem cell research.
Professor Pfeffer argued that women having an abortion should be approached to donate fetal material medical research. She also took the opportunity to outline the findings of small scale focus group research undertaken into the views of women who have had abortions about donating fetal tissue. Many began with the view that donation could be a positive thing to come out of their unintended pregnancy - however, concerns were quickly raised. One concern was that, as stated by the Polkinghorne guidelines, women are not allowed to know in detail what the tissue they donate would be used for. According to Pfeffer, some women felt that this would be important in their decision whether to donate, as they felt a ‘duty of care’ to the fetus.
Guidance in this area was last updated when the Polkinghorne guidelines were published in 1989. The Department of Health recognised the need to update this guidance in 2004 but as yet there have been no moves to update it. Professor Pfeffer called for a full review, public discussion and regulatory guidance in order to address the concerns clinicians feel about asking women having an abortion about fetal tissue donation, and assist researchers who need such tissue in order to carry out medical research.


http://www.abortionreview.org/index.php/site/article/466/

I know, i agree with you on this, again i am baffled that some people are veggie yet pro-choice, makes no sense to me.

chloe
12-14-2009, 10:53 PM
As i have said, you were the one that did the judging, when you said that you were being selfish ect.



Because at the end of the day addiction is a choice, and you either give in or you don't. I memo when i first meet my last girlfriend, she was ruining her life through drugs, mainly Alcohol, Cigarettes and Cannabis. Cigs she consumed daily, and Alcohol & Cannabis 2-3 days a week. In the 2 years that we were together she often brought up that she was craving one or another of them, and yet in those 2 years she did not get drunk, stonned or smoke a cig once. Because any time it was mentioned the choice was spelt out clearly, because thats all addictions are, choices. By giving into the addiction you are chosing to fail. I will also have it noted that in the past few months after we broke up she has started taking drugs again, and thus failed herself.

You may see this as harsh, the idea of failing, but life is allot more black and white than people try to pretend. At the end of the day you are not forced to do anything, you chose, words like addiction try to mask this, but addiction is just another choice.





I have been sober a long time, and I understand addiction, in recovery we call people like you "normys" so I won't expect you to get it. In america we do have hormones and food addititives in meat & veggies, some studies say it is addictive, who knows. I won't quit eating meat until I am ready, at least Im willing to be open about the possibility of not consuming it, some people won't even consider the idea of it. Its good to know you dont want to kill human babies. Anyway I answered your question I cannot control that you didnt like my answer.

Abbey Marie
12-15-2009, 01:17 PM
Awk Abbey dear, you're a Pescetarian? I understand you even less that the full on meat eaters,

:dunno: Oh well. That's ok. I really only need to understand it myself, and I will continue to be glad that I don't eat those cows and pigs, etc.

Noir
12-15-2009, 01:22 PM
:dunno: Oh well. That's ok. I really only need to understand it myself, and I will continue to be glad that I don't eat those cows and pigs, etc.

Well obviously you need not answer, but why do you see the murder of Cows & pigs ect as wrong and yet are fine with supporting the murder of fish?

Also does this mean i am the only vegetarian on the board?

Noir
12-15-2009, 01:31 PM
I have been sober a long time, and I understand addiction, in recovery we call people like you "normys" so I won't expect you to get it. In america we do have hormones and food addititives in meat & veggies, some studies say it is addictive, who knows. I won't quit eating meat until I am ready, at least Im willing to be open about the possibility of not consuming it, some people won't even consider the idea of it. Its good to know you dont want to kill human babies. Anyway I answered your question I cannot control that you didnt like my answer.

Normys? As in someone you doesn't understand? I got called such things by my ex, she was forever going on about how i didn't understand, and that i had no idea what it was like ect ect, and yet for 2 years she did not get drunk, stoned or smoke a cig once. And then she went of with a guy who did understand, and did know what it was like, and within a month shes back to her cigs and getting stoned and drunk every week, all i can say is thank God i don't understand.

Its not that i don't like your answer, it was very honest and thought was put into it. But you make clear that you know what you are doing is, in your own words, selfish, and yet you don't care to do anything about it, you'd rather wait until you do care. I can understand, though i disagree, with someone who thinks that murdering animals is fine, and so eats meat. I can not understand someone who thinks that murdering them is wrong, and yet supports the system thats murders them. Do you not agree that it looks odd?

chloe
12-15-2009, 02:10 PM
Its not that i don't like your answer, it was very honest and thought was put into it. But you make clear that you know what you are doing is, in your own words, selfish, and yet you don't care to do anything about it, you'd rather wait until you do care. I can understand, though i disagree, with someone who thinks that murdering animals is fine, and so eats meat. I can not understand someone who thinks that murdering them is wrong, and yet supports the system thats murders them. Do you not agree that it looks odd?

That's right for the time being I am selfish, so you get IT. I find the same thing odd when vegans or vegetarians do support baby killing. I also think its odd that a vegan chooses to be all the way off animal porduct because they say animals are poorly treated even for the purpose of using dairy products, even injecting them with hormones and such, yet a vegetarian has no problem with dairy products? Odd too. But Humans in general are odd. So be it.

Noir
12-15-2009, 02:35 PM
That's right for the time being I am selfish, so you get IT. I find the same thing odd when vegans or vegetarians do support baby killing. I also think its odd that a vegan chooses to be all the way off animal porduct because they say animals are poorly treated even for the purpose of using dairy products, even injecting them with hormones and such, yet a vegetarian has no problem with dairy products? Odd too. But Humans in general are odd. So be it.

Well i get it in that your being selfish, i just don't get why anyone would be selfish by intention.

As for dairy products, personally i would only ever buy Organic and Free range dairy products to ensure the animal is treated as well as could be.

crin63
12-15-2009, 02:49 PM
It just aint a meal if it doesn't have a nice thick slab of cooked meat on the plate. Not much I like better than steak & eggs for breakfast, well maybe a good pork chop works as well. I had some Chipotle Pork Chops that were just marvelous at breakfast time.

When I worked at Farmer Johns they had a train load of hogs that froze to death along the way to the slaughter house, what a waste of good bacon. Man them things bloat after they sit for a few days dead, smell pretty bad when they pop them with a sickle too.

Noir
12-15-2009, 02:55 PM
It just aint a meal if it doesn't have a nice thick slab of cooked meat on the plate. Not much I like better than steak & eggs for breakfast, well maybe a good pork chop works as well. I had some Chipotle Pork Chops that were just marvelous at breakfast time.

When I worked at Farmer Johns they had a train load of hogs that froze to death along the way to the slaughter house, what a waste of good bacon. Man them things bloat after they sit for a few days dead, smell pretty bad when they pop them with a sickle too.

Like seriously, if you can read and talk about stories like that and not feel disgusted then i would consider there to be something wrong with you. Its just vile.

Gaffer
12-15-2009, 03:42 PM
I read the post and I don't feel disgust. It's a waste of good pork. I won't eat a meal that isn't primarily meat.

You really have to realize that animals are not people. They are not sentient. They have only one concern and that is eating. They search and do things for food, nothing more than that. They don't plan, they don't dream, they don't create. They only eat, shit, and sleep. Even pets are loyal because of food. And for most pets that food is meat. Even dry dog food is made from meat.

Calling people murderers for eating meat is the old guilt trip trick used so often by liberals. It doesn't work here.

Noir
12-15-2009, 04:01 PM
I read the post and I don't feel disgust. It's a waste of good pork. I won't eat a meal that isn't primarily meat.

A waste of good pork? It is a needless and cruel death, and any of the 'lucky' survivers would only be alive another few hours until they too are needlessly killed.


You really have to realize that animals are not people. They are not sentient.

I agree they are not people, and when the bit comes to the bit we are above them.

Animals are not sentient?...are we using the same definition?

Sentient - adjective - able to perceive or feel things - Origin early 17th Century from Latin sentient, meaning 'feeling'.

I would say that animals most certainly are sentient.



They have only one concern and that is eating. They search and do things for food, nothing more than that. They don't plan, they don't dream, they don't create.

This is utter rubbish, ofcourse animals plan. Example - Birds build nests...that takes planning, btw that is also a creation, no?


They only eat, shit, and sleep. Even pets are loyal because of food. And for most pets that food is meat. Even dry dog food is made from meat.

I feel you are wrong on the loyalty, it implies that if someone across the road feed your cat better food that it would disappear off with them, though i can not prove it, it is only a feeling. As for the food, yes many dog foods contain meats, which i think they shouldn't


Calling people murderers for eating meat is the old guilt trip trick used so often by liberals. It doesn't work here.

I'm not calling everyone a murderer, you are only a murderer if you kill the animal yourself, if you buy it from a shop ect then you are however supporting the murderers and keeping them murdering.

crin63
12-15-2009, 04:10 PM
Like seriously, if you can read and talk about stories like that and not feel disgusted then i would consider there to be something wrong with you. Its just vile.

I was disgusted with the terrible waste of food that could have fed alot of people and the loss of wages for the people at the slaughter house in processing all that pork. It was stupid to ship them when they did but thats about it. Animals are there for our food and pleasure.

Noir
12-15-2009, 04:15 PM
I was disgusted with the terrible waste of food that could have fed alot of people and the loss of wages for the people at the slaughter house in processing all that pork. It was stupid to ship them when they did but thats about it. Animals are there for our food and pleasure.

All animals? Or just the ones you chose to have slaughter?

crin63
12-15-2009, 04:32 PM
All animals? Or just the ones you chose to have slaughter?

Any animals that are actually good for eating. I wouldn't slaughter a dog for food unless folks were starving and I mean really starving not just hungry. It would be okay with me for medical testing to be done on a dog though, I have no problem with that. Better a dog than a person and I like dogs. if I had the room for a dog or 2, I would have them.

Noir
12-15-2009, 04:46 PM
Any animals that are actually good for eating. I wouldn't slaughter a dog for food unless folks were starving and I mean really starving not just hungry. It would be okay with me for medical testing to be done on a dog though, I have no problem with that. Better a dog than a person and I like dogs. if I had the room for a dog or 2, I would have them.

Why would a dog deserve such a privilege?

Dogs and cats are often exceptions with folks i talk to,

crin63
12-15-2009, 04:58 PM
Why would a dog deserve such a privilege?

Dogs and cats are often exceptions with folks i talk to,

Its pretty simple really, its because they are domestic pets and not generally considered good for food.

Noir
12-15-2009, 05:02 PM
Its pretty simple really, its because they are domestic pets and not generally considered good for food.

So just cus you are not able to domesticate a Pig it is fine to murder them, what delightful logic =/

Gaffer
12-15-2009, 05:38 PM
So just cus you are not able to domesticate a Pig it is fine to murder them, what delightful logic =/

It's fine to kill them for food. You sure like to throw the word murder around. You don't even know what it means. Just another liberal talking point trying to make people feel guilty.

Sentient, aware of ones self.

Animals act on instinct, they do not create things or use tools. They do not act, they react depending on their instinct. Animals don't worry, they don't get bored and they don't care about anything but their next meal.

Noir
12-15-2009, 06:03 PM
It's fine to kill them for food. You sure like to throw the word murder around. You don't even know what it means. Just another liberal talking point trying to make people feel guilty.

I know what the legal definition is, however, on a personal level a death for no reason is murder, if you don't agree fair enough.


Sentient, aware of ones self.

Indeedy...and animals are aware of themselves.


Animals act on instinct, they do not create things or use tools. They do not act, they react depending on their instinct. Animals don't worry, they don't get bored and they don't care about anything but their next meal.

This is utter crap, truly.
About a year ago my dog, Max, got depressed. Out of the blue, for no reason. (well not one that i will ever know anyway) He did not want to go on walks, he lost allot of weight by not eating, and would just sit in his room for hour after hour doing nothing. Thankfully he came out of it after a few weeks and i will never forget that day, so sorry if i seem dismissive of you telling me that animals don't care about anything, because i have seen it first hand.
It is also worth noting that i use to let him sleep in my room, even though he has his own, and whenever i moved away to Uni my dad started putting him in his room again. Since then he has learned how to open doors, and goes to sleep in my room some nights, are you saying he does that because he is thinking about his next meal?

And again "they do not create things" do birds not make birds nests?

crin63
12-15-2009, 11:53 PM
So just cus you are not able to domesticate a Pig it is fine to murder them, what delightful logic =/

You can kill animals (for whatever reason), you can skin them for their pelts, you can cook em up and eat them, you can shoot the little ones for target practice so you don't miss the big ones, but no matter what you do to them you cannot murder them. They're just animals.

I've had a dog that played hide & seek with me, he brushed himself by putting the brush on the floor and pushing himself over it, I had another dog that I would say committed suicide because he lost a fight and it so demoralized him that he went and laid down till he died but they were just animals.

Noir
12-16-2009, 12:01 AM
You can kill animals (for whatever reason), you can skin them for their pelts, you can cook em up and eat them, you can shoot the little ones for target practice so you don't miss the big ones, but no matter what you do to them you cannot murder them. They're just animals.

Indeedy you can not legaly murder them, but as i'm sure your know all to well, legality and morality are not one and the same, so a legal murder? No. A moral murder? Yes.


I've had a dog that played hide & seek with me, he brushed himself by putting the brush on the floor and pushing himself over it, I had another dog that I would say committed suicide because he lost a fight and it so demoralized him that he went and laid down till he died but they were just animals.

They were just animals, but you would have not decided to play hide and seek with your dog one day and when you find him proceed to cut his throat for no reason, or shoot him for target practice. Does it ever occur to you if your out shooting birds or whatever that it may have chicks waiting for it back at its nest? and given that do you think its right to condemn those chicks to starve to death because you felt like shooting something?

Mr. P
12-16-2009, 12:18 AM
Indeedy you can not legaly murder them, but as i'm sure your know all to well, legality and morality are not one and the same, so a legal murder? No. A moral murder? Yes.



They were just animals, but you would have not decided to play hide and seek with your dog one day and when you find him proceed to cut his throat for no reason, or shoot him for target practice. Does it ever occur to you if your out shooting birds or whatever that it may have chicks waiting for it back at its nest? and given that do you think its right to condemn those chicks to starve to death because you felt like shooting something?

Does conservation occur to you? Our hunting seasons take into account the breeding seasons, total population and available food sources. We maintain wildlife populations through responsible harvesting practices.

Noir
12-16-2009, 12:21 AM
Does conservation occur to you? Our hunting seasons take into account the breeding seasons, total population and available food sources. We maintain wildlife populations through responsible harvesting practices.

Nature has a way of looking after itself. It did so for all the years before guns were around and any tom, dick or harry would go slaughtering at a whim.

I see you didn't answer the question aswell, rather you chose to attack,

Mr. P
12-16-2009, 12:40 AM
Nature has a way of looking after itself. It did so for all the years before guns were around and any tom, dick or harry would go slaughtering at a whim.

I see you didn't answer the question aswell, rather you chose to attack,

There was no attack.

So, you'd rather see wildlife die of starvation an disease? Is that right?

Noir
12-16-2009, 12:46 AM
There was no attack.

So, you'd rather see wildlife die of starvation an disease? Is that right?

I would rather let nature take its corse, it one type of bird or another is doomed to die out then that is natures way, and we should not be messing with that.

This is ofcourse a different issue to the production of meat, which is an even worse evil still.

Mr. P
12-16-2009, 12:54 AM
I would rather let nature take its corse, it one type of bird or another is doomed to die out then that is natures way, and we should not be messing with that.

This is ofcourse a different issue to the production of meat, which is an even worse evil still.

Well it may surprise you, Noir. But here in the USA..hunters and fishermen strive to maintain the population of ALL the wildlife.
They are "true" conservationist.

Noir
12-16-2009, 01:08 AM
Well it may surprise you, Noir. But here in the USA..hunters and fishermen strive to maintain the population of ALL the wildlife.
They are "true" conservationist.

Yeah, because before the hunters turned up nature just couldn't cope, infact it was a mess for hundreds of thousands of years, thank gawd for the hunters.

As previously said nature has a way of doing things, if the red finned tuna is meant to over run and replace all of the blue finned tuna in an area due to nature then IMO nature should be left to itself. Now when it is man that is wiping a species out, then we must act to stop it, and normally when a species is endangered because of man its because of, er, hunting. Isn't that what happened to the buffalo of America?

crin63
12-16-2009, 01:13 AM
Indeedy you can not legaly murder them, but as i'm sure your know all to well, legality and morality are not one and the same, so a legal murder? No. A moral murder? Yes.



They were just animals, but you would have not decided to play hide and seek with your dog one day and when you find him proceed to cut his throat for no reason, or shoot him for target practice. Does it ever occur to you if your out shooting birds or whatever that it may have chicks waiting for it back at its nest? and given that do you think its right to condemn those chicks to starve to death because you felt like shooting something?

What do you want me to say, " I don't care"? Okay, I Don't Care! It will be a quick clean kill.

Mr. P
12-16-2009, 01:17 AM
Yeah, because before the hunters turned up nature just couldn't cope, infact it was a mess for hundreds of thousands of years, thank gawd for the hunters.

As previously said nature has a way of doing things, if the red finned tuna is meant to over run and replace all of the blue finned tuna in an area due to nature then IMO nature should be left to itself. Now when it is man that is wiping a species out, then we must act to stop it, and normally when a species is endangered because of man its because of, er, hunting. Isn't that what happened to the buffalo of America?

We still have Buffalo in America..

As a matter of fact some folks grow them for food. Yep, they sell to gourmet markets and high end restaurants.

Noir
12-16-2009, 01:22 AM
We still have Buffalo in America..

As a matter of fact some folks grow them for food. Yep, they sell to gourmet markets and high end restaurants.

I know they still exist, but where they not slaughtered to within an inch of their existence? Maybe i have remembered that wrong,

Mr. P
12-16-2009, 01:29 AM
I know they still exist, but where they not slaughtered to within an inch of their existence? Maybe i have remembered that wrong,

Yes, but we brought them back..so we could eat them.

Noir
12-16-2009, 01:38 AM
Yes, but we brought them back..so we could eat them.

How delightful.

HogTrash
12-16-2009, 04:15 AM
Awk Abbey dear, you're a Pescetarian? I understand you even less that the full on meat eaters,


Well obviously you need not answer, but why do you see the murder of Cows & pigs ect as wrong and yet are fine with supporting the murder of fish?

Also does this mean i am the only vegetarian on the board?


Normys? As in someone you doesn't understand? I got called such things by my ex, she was forever going on about how i didn't understand, and that i had no idea what it was like ect ect, and yet for 2 years she did not get drunk, stoned or smoke a cig once. And then she went of with a guy who did understand, and did know what it was like, and within a month shes back to her cigs and getting stoned and drunk every week, all i can say is thank God i don't understand.

Its not that i don't like your answer, it was very honest and thought was put into it. But you make clear that you know what you are doing is, in your own words, selfish, and yet you don't care to do anything about it, you'd rather wait until you do care. I can understand, though i disagree, with someone who thinks that murdering animals is fine, and so eats meat. I can not understand someone who thinks that murdering them is wrong, and yet supports the system thats murders them. Do you not agree that it looks odd?


Well i get it in that your being selfish, i just don't get why anyone would be selfish by intention.

As for dairy products, personally i would only ever buy Organic and Free range dairy products to ensure the animal is treated as well as could be.


Like seriously, if you can read and talk about stories like that and not feel disgusted then i would consider there to be something wrong with you. Its just vile.


A waste of good pork? It is a needless and cruel death, and any of the 'lucky' survivers would only be alive another few hours until they too are needlessly killed.

I agree they are not people, and when the bit comes to the bit we are above them.

Animals are not sentient?...are we using the same definition?

Sentient - adjective - able to perceive or feel things - Origin early 17th Century from Latin sentient, meaning 'feeling'.

I would say that animals most certainly are sentient.

This is utter rubbish, ofcourse animals plan. Example - Birds build nests...that takes planning, btw that is also a creation, no?

I feel you are wrong on the loyalty, it implies that if someone across the road feed your cat better food that it would disappear off with them, though i can not prove it, it is only a feeling. As for the food, yes many dog foods contain meats, which i think they shouldn't

I'm not calling everyone a murderer, you are only a murderer if you kill the animal yourself, if you buy it from a shop ect then you are however supporting the murderers and keeping them murdering.


All animals? Or just the ones you chose to have slaughter?


Why would a dog deserve such a privilege?

Dogs and cats are often exceptions with folks i talk to,


So just cus you are not able to domesticate a Pig it is fine to murder them, what delightful logic =/


I know what the legal definition is, however, on a personal level a death for no reason is murder, if you don't agree fair enough.

Indeedy...and animals are aware of themselves.

This is utter crap, truly.
About a year ago my dog, Max, got depressed. Out of the blue, for no reason. (well not one that i will ever know anyway) He did not want to go on walks, he lost allot of weight by not eating, and would just sit in his room for hour after hour doing nothing. Thankfully he came out of it after a few weeks and i will never forget that day, so sorry if i seem dismissive of you telling me that animals don't care about anything, because i have seen it first hand.
It is also worth noting that i use to let him sleep in my room, even though he has his own, and whenever i moved away to Uni my dad started putting him in his room again. Since then he has learned how to open doors, and goes to sleep in my room some nights, are you saying he does that because he is thinking about his next meal?

And again "they do not create things" do birds not make birds nests?


Indeedy you can not legaly murder them, but as i'm sure your know all to well, legality and morality are not one and the same, so a legal murder? No. A moral murder? Yes.

They were just animals, but you would have not decided to play hide and seek with your dog one day and when you find him proceed to cut his throat for no reason, or shoot him for target practice. Does it ever occur to you if your out shooting birds or whatever that it may have chicks waiting for it back at its nest? and given that do you think its right to condemn those chicks to starve to death because you felt like shooting something?


Nature has a way of looking after itself. It did so for all the years before guns were around and any tom, dick or harry would go slaughtering at a whim.

I see you didn't answer the question aswell, rather you chose to attack,


I would rather let nature take its corse, it one type of bird or another is doomed to die out then that is natures way, and we should not be messing with that.

This is ofcourse a different issue to the production of meat, which is an even worse evil still.


Yeah, because before the hunters turned up nature just couldn't cope, infact it was a mess for hundreds of thousands of years, thank gawd for the hunters.

As previously said nature has a way of doing things, if the red finned tuna is meant to over run and replace all of the blue finned tuna in an area due to nature then IMO nature should be left to itself. Now when it is man that is wiping a species out, then we must act to stop it, and normally when a species is endangered because of man its because of, er, hunting. Isn't that what happened to the buffalo of America?


I know they still exist, but where they not slaughtered to within an inch of their existence? Maybe i have remembered that wrong,


How delightful.LOL!...Noir...Someday when you grow up and reflect back on your youth, you will get a kick out of how young, foolish and naive you once were...LOL!

There's nothing wrong with that peckerwood, it's something most of us can't help doing...We all have to be able to laugh at ourselves...LOL!

I know the rest of us are getting one helluva kick outta you right now...LOL!...If you only knew now you could join us in a damn good laugh my boy.

Noir
12-16-2009, 06:26 AM
LOL!...Noir...Someday when you grow up and reflect back on your youth, you will get a kick out of how young, foolish and naive you once were...LOL!

There's nothing wrong with that peckerwood, it's something most of us can't help doing...We all have to be able to laugh at ourselves...LOL!

I know the rest of us are getting one helluva kick outta you right now...LOL!...If you only knew now you could join us in a damn good laugh my boy.

Wow, take a bunch or random quotes and jam them together so they make no sense, A++ dude

All i can say is i hope you can laugh at yourself, cus if not you're missing out on the joke of the century,

HogTrash
12-16-2009, 01:39 PM
Wow, take a bunch or random quotes and jam them together so they make no sense, A++ dude

All i can say is i hope you can laugh at yourself, cus if not you're missing out on the joke of the century,It took every bit of 2 minutes to click the "Multiple Quotes" on your last 16 posts from the last three pages of this thread.

I don't think you're enjoying this as much as I am Noir?...Remember what I said about laughing at yourself?...It's really OK.

Noir
12-16-2009, 02:43 PM
It took every bit of 2 minutes to click the "Multiple Quotes" on your last 16 posts from the last three pages of this thread.

I don't think you're enjoying this as much as I am Noir?...Remember what I said about laughing at yourself?...It's really OK.

Well thats 2 mins of your life you'll never get back,

Are you going to bother going back on the topic of Animal rights or not?

chloe
12-16-2009, 03:38 PM
Well thats 2 mins of your life you'll never get back,

Are you going to bother going back on the topic of Animal rights or not?

Yes, it was about animals being sold to U of U for science research, that was the original topic.

Noir
12-16-2009, 04:09 PM
Yes, it was about animals being sold to U of U for science research, that was the original topic.

If your suggesting that it is I who have de-railed the thread then you have the power to split the topics and thus remove my posts and those related to it into another thread, if you so wish.

chloe
12-16-2009, 04:42 PM
If your suggesting that it is I who have de-railed the thread then you have the power to split the topics and thus remove my posts and those related to it into another thread, if you so wish.

Noir the thread was derailed a few pages ago, you asked hog to get back on subject, so i posted what the subject was. I stepped down as Mod, i will get busy after holidays working overtime to pay off my kids dental bills, plus I don't think I was good at being a Mod. But I wouldn't have split the thread anyway, your old enough to control yourself andmake your own thread, if you choose not to, that is on purpose.

Mr. P
12-16-2009, 05:32 PM
Yes, it was about animals being sold to U of U for science research, that was the original topic.

Research animals have saved MILLIONS of human lives.

They are one of "life's" necessities..unless of course you'd like to volunteer.

HogTrash
12-16-2009, 06:27 PM
Well thats 2 mins of your life you'll never get back,

Are you going to bother going back on the topic of Animal rights or not?I wasn't aware they had any...?

Besides, here in America we have this wacko negro not too bright prez, bankrupting the nation and socializing everything in site and I simply don't have the time to think about food right now.

cat slave
12-19-2009, 08:28 PM
Research animals have saved MILLIONS of human lives.

They are one of "life's" necessities..unless of course you'd like to volunteer.

Technology has exploded to such a level that such archaic and primitive
practices are not necessary. They simply generate busy work to validate
fat paychecks for researchers.

cat slave
12-19-2009, 08:29 PM
I wasn't aware they had any...?

Besides, here in America we have this wacko negro not too bright prez, bankrupting the nation and socializing everything in site and I simply don't have the time to think about food right now.

A lot pales in comparison to what Ive seen today. A lot!

Not that I believe in vivisection, I dont.