Why is abortion a "womans" choice?

[chloe]

I was thinking about it, how women argue that it is their body and they should have the choice whether or not to abort their baby. Why don't men have a choice? It's their baby too? If men had a choice in it, would most men want the baby , what if the women wants it and the man doesn't? What about the unborn babies choice? What if man & woman had no choice and nature decided? What's wrong with that? Afterall, man & woman have a choice before they procreate together. Vasectomy & Tubes Tied are definately the choices they have.

[darin]

...because people love to find ways to make their attrocities seem 'simple, normal'.

[PostmodernProphet]

first of all, a simple DNA test will prove that it isn't the woman's body.....it's the child's body.....

[bullypulpit]

Because she's the one carrying it to term?

If it's a case of rape or incest, there's no need to involve the sperm donor. Same if the donor physically and/or psychologically abuses the woman. If the donor won't "man up" and take responsibility, he loses any right to make a decision. Which leaves a fraction of those for whom the pregnancy was a result of birth control failure and are in a long standing and loving relationship with their partner. The choice then falls to both.

I just love the way y'all ignore everything else to make one tedious, and ultimately irrelevant, point.

[PostmodernProphet]

If it's a case of rape or incest, there's no need to involve the sperm donor. Same if the donor physically and/or psychologically abuses the woman. If the donor won't "man up" and take responsibility, he loses any right to make a decision. Which leaves a fraction of those for whom the pregnancy was a result of birth control failure and are in a long standing and loving relationship with their partner. The choice then falls to both.

I just love the way y'all ignore everything else to make one tedious, and ultimately irrelevant, point.

what obvious bullshit......you are pretending that only a fraction of abortions involve situations other than rape or incest?.....the two combined don't contribute any significant statistic to the number of abortions that occur.....the vast majority of abortions are the result of two people who didn't give a fuck when they gave a fuck.......

[jimnyc]

I loving couple have sex. A baby is formed. 9 months later there will be a little one joining this world. There was no incest, no rape & there is no danger to the mother.

1- If the mother wants to carry to term, as does the father, the mother has the final say.

2- If the mother wants a family, and the father doesn't, the mother has the final say - and the father will be on the hook for 18 years.

3- If the father wants a family, and the mother doesn't, the father's desires don't mean squat when the mother aborts.

4- Hell, even in cases of rape, incest or dangers of delivering - the father has no say.

I understand that a woman carries the baby for 9 months, and I understand that she is "walking hell" for that time while the father bears no pain. Nonetheless, it took TWO to get to that position, and the decisions should be made by both.

I don't have the answers as to exactly what to do if they disagree, I just know that for now the men are getting royally screwed for not having any say whatsoever.

[chloe]

Because she's the one carrying it to term?

If it's a case of rape or incest, there's no need to involve the sperm donor. Same if the donor physically and/or psychologically abuses the woman. If the donor won't "man up" and take responsibility, he loses any right to make a decision. Which leaves a fraction of those for whom the pregnancy was a result of birth control failure and are in a long standing and loving relationship with their partner. The choice then falls to both.

I just love the way y'all ignore everything else to make one tedious, and ultimately irrelevant, point.

I was physically abused by my first husband, while the woman definately has a right to get out of that kind of relationship and while she also has a right to get tubes tied and use birth control, if she gets preganant and he beats her he would go to prison if he killed the baby, but she is allowed to kill the baby on her own, that doesnt make sense. As far as rape and incest, those acts are terrible violations, and it wont make them less terrible violations even if you kill your baby. However, you can heal and transform that by having your miracle baby or by giving an infertile couple a baby to love and care for, love is a transformer.

[chloe]

I loving couple have sex. A baby is formed. 9 months later there will be a little one joining this world. There was no incest, no rape & there is no danger to the mother.

1- If the mother wants to carry to term, as does the father, the mother has the final say.

2- If the mother wants a family, and the father doesn't, the mother has the final say - and the father will be on the hook for 18 years.

3- If the father wants a family, and the mother doesn't, the father's desires don't mean squat when the mother aborts.

4- Hell, even in cases of rape, incest or dangers of delivering - the father has no say.

I understand that a woman carries the baby for 9 months, and I understand that she is "walking hell" for that time while the father bears no pain. Nonetheless, it took TWO to get to that position, and the decisions should be made by both.

I don't have the answers as to exactly what to do if they disagree, I just know that for now the men are getting royally screwed for not having any say whatsoever.

exactly right it took two to procreate that baby, a man has just as much say in whether the baby should be aborted or live. Now personally I am against abortion, however, I wonder how many women would be quick to hop in the sack if the law said the man they were sleeping with gets to decide with them on whether to keep the baby or abort the baby, and if she wanted to keep the baby and he wanted an abortion what protection does he have? So he has to sign away all his parental rights only to have some adult look him up 18 yrs later and ask why he didnt want him/her. Or if the man is willing to raise the baby on his own and let the woman relinquish her parental rights to the baby according to current law he has no right to his baby he helped create. Well that sucks !

[bullypulpit]

what obvious bullshit......you are pretending that only a fraction of abortions involve situations other than rape or incest?.....the two combined don't contribute any significant statistic to the number of abortions that occur.....the vast majority of abortions are the result of two people who didn't give a fuck when they gave a fuck.......

Since you failed to provide any documentation to support your statements, allow me to present infomation which refutes them.

<center><a href=http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html>Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States</a></center>

[bullypulpit]

I was physically abused by my first husband, while the woman definately has a right to get out of that kind of relationship and while she also has a right to get tubes tied and use birth control, if she gets preganant and he beats her he would go to prison if he killed the baby, but she is allowed to kill the baby on her own, that doesnt make sense. As far as rape and incest, those acts are terrible violations, and it wont make them less terrible violations even if you kill your baby. However, you can heal and transform that by having your miracle baby or by giving an infertile couple a baby to love and care for, love is a transformer.

Then you know very well how powerless the victim feels while involved in such a relationship. Would you have been able to have made the decision to "get tubes tied and use birth control"?

Why should a woman be forced to carry a pregnancy to term which is the result of violence against her person, be it rape, incest or an abusive relationship? To argue in favor of such is little more than claiming that's all women are fit for...making babies.

A "miracle baby"? a pregnancy that is the result of violence is not a miracle. It is the consequence, intended or not, of the perpetrators actions. Actions which are designed to leave the victims emotionally and/or physically shattered. No, no miracle there.

[PostmodernProphet]

Since you failed to provide any documentation to support your statements, allow me to present infomation which refutes them.

<center><a href=http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html>Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States</a></center>

???....problem is, that information shows you were wrong......they don't even mention rape or incest in their statistics....

[chloe]

Then you know very well how powerless the victim feels while involved in such a relationship. Would you have been able to have made the decision to "get tubes tied and use birth control"?

Why should a woman be forced to carry a pregnancy to term which is the result of violence against her person, be it rape, incest or an abusive relationship? To argue in favor of such is little more than claiming that's all women are fit for...making babies.

A "miracle baby"? a pregnancy that is the result of violence is not a miracle. It is the consequence, intended or not, of the perpetrators actions. Actions which are designed to leave the victims emotionally and/or physically shattered. No, no miracle there.

I would have had no problem getting my tubes tied. Incest, Rape and abuse are crimes, that doesn't mean because you have been a victim of them you should murder your own baby. According to you as a liberal man , I am the woman so my right overrides your opinion eh:coffee:

[stephanie]

seems to me if a man doesn't have a decision in his baby being aborted, then we shouldn't let any "man" have a say in making the laws about abortion..

how bout that one Bully dearie?

[chloe]

seems to me if a man doesn't have a decision in his baby being aborted, then we shouldn't let any "man" have a say in making the laws about abortion..

how bout that one Bully dearie?

No Kidden, I hate when people try to act like because a woman is a victim of a crime she should murder her baby. If the baby is some reminder of her victimization she can give the baby up for adoption and the baby will be someone else's miracle. The baby didnt commit any crime. Those are arguments are to justify murdering an innocent baby who did nothing to anyone. If the woman was a victims of those crimes and never got pregnant she would still be a victim of those crimes.

[stephanie]

No Kidden, I hate when people try to act like because a woman is a victim of a crime she should murder her baby. If the baby is some reminder of her victimization she can give the baby up for adoption and the baby will be someone else's miracle. The baby didnt commit any crime. Those are arguments are to justify murdering an innocent baby who did nothing to anyone. If the woman was a victims of those crimes and never got pregnant she would still be a victim of those crimes.

The rape and incest argument is always what they throw out there to justify their conscience of killing their own children..as we all know the MAJORITY of abortions done today are strictly for "birth control"...A lot of "men" like Bully who stand behind this don't have a clue or care what the mental "aftereffect" this can have on women...just so long as they can say, they "care more" for women's rights..

[chloe]

The rape and incest argument is always what they throw out there to justify their conscience of killing their own children..as we all know the MAJORITY of abortions done today are strictly for "birth control"...A lot of "men" like Bully who stand behind this don't have a clue or care what the mental "aftereffect" this can have on women...just so long as they can say, they "care more" for women's rights..

Murder of an innocent baby is not justifed under any circumstance, the liberal use the rape or incest argument to make it seem like pro-lifers are uncaring to the victimization of women. The victimization for the woman exists whether she got pregnant or not, the psychologicla scarring is there for her because of the crime, this is not the babys fault, and there is no reason the baby should be murdered because of it.

[stephanie]

Murder of an innocent baby is not justifed under any circumstance, the liberal use the rape or incest argument to make it seem like pro-lifers are uncaring to the victimization of women. The victimization for the woman exists whether she got pregnant or not, the psychologicla scarring is there for her because of the crime, this is not the babys fault, and there is no reason the baby should be murdered because of it.

unfortunately abortion has become so "mainstream" nothing will help now..it's a sad pock on society in my opinion..

[bullypulpit]

I would have had no problem getting my tubes tied. Incest, Rape and abuse are crimes, that doesn't mean because you have been a victim of them you should murder your own baby. According to you as a liberal man , I am the woman so my right overrides your opinion eh:coffee:

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>ba·by</b>
Pronunciation: \ˈbā-bē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural babies
Etymology: Middle English, from babe
Date: 14th century

<b>1 a (1) :</b> an extremely young child; especially : infant </blockquote>

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>fe·tus</b>
Pronunciation: \ˈfē-təs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful — more at feminine
Date: 14th century

: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth</blockquote>

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>em·bryo</b>
Pronunciation: \ˈem-brē-ˌō\
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin embryon-, embryo, from Greek embryon, from en- + bryein to swell; akin to Greek bryon catkin
Date: 1548

<b>1 a archaic :</b> a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching<b> b :</b> an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems; especially : the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception</blockquote>

A baby is neither an embryo or a fetus. An "unborn baby" is an oxymoron. The vast majority of induced abortions in this country take place within the first nine weeks of a pregnancy. No "babies" are "killed".

[SassyLady]

A baby is neither an embryo or a fetus. An "unborn baby" is an oxymoron. The vast majority of induced abortions in this country take place within the first nine weeks of a pregnancy. No "babies" are "killed".

This is the most assinine thing I've ever read on this forum.

The minute the egg is fertilized, a unique life has started regardless of whether is it called a "baby", "fetus", "unborn child", "embryo" and the decision to have it removed from the body is a decision to end the life of that individual.

[chloe]

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>ba·by</b>
Pronunciation: \ˈbā-bē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural babies
Etymology: Middle English, from babe
Date: 14th century

<b>1 a (1) :</b> an extremely young child; especially : infant </blockquote>

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>fe·tus</b>
Pronunciation: \ˈfē-təs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful — more at feminine
Date: 14th century

: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth</blockquote>

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>em·bryo</b>
Pronunciation: \ˈem-brē-ˌō\
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin embryon-, embryo, from Greek embryon, from en- + bryein to swell; akin to Greek bryon catkin
Date: 1548

<b>1 a archaic :</b> a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching<b> b :</b> an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems; especially : the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception</blockquote>

A baby is neither an embryo or a fetus. An "unborn baby" is an oxymoron. The vast majority of induced abortions in this country take place within the first nine weeks of a pregnancy. No "babies" are "killed".

well you will never be pregnant and you don't know what it feels like it's a life inside the womb, besides you think it is only the "womans right" to choose so even from the standpoint of your own opinion on this matter anything you say should be null n void even to yourself sir.

[stephanie]

A baby is neither an embryo or a fetus. An "unborn baby" is an oxymoron. The vast majority of induced abortions in this country take place within the first nine weeks of a pregnancy. No "babies" are "killed".

why does being a liberal and a worker in health care stop you from your oath of "doing no harm" when it comes to supporting abortions? I've never figured that one out about you..it is very sad to me..

[chloe]

Bullypulpit there are pro-life gay & lesbian groups that actively fight for the baby's life, just because your a liberal is no reason to excuse abortion.


http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1306/plagalheartplain.png

We fight homophobia, in every way we can. We organize. We lobby. We vote. And we demand the same basic rights heterosexual take for granted.

But lesbians and gay men are not the only ones whose rights get trashed. Every day, other groups of people are walked over because of their gender, race, ethnic background, religion, politics -- you name it. And we've come to realize that we can't work for our own rights alone, while others suffer discrimination. So we work for their rights, too.

Why? Because their rights and our rights are the same human rights: Not different -- exactly the same. None of us is truly free until all of us are free, with all our rights intact and guaranteed, including the basic right to live without threat or harassment.

And that's why we're Pro-Life. Just like homophobia, abortion tries tot rid of real human beings who are considered threatening or undesirable. Just like homophobia, abortion denies one's place as a member of human society, and even one's right to be alive in it.

We know all too well what that's like. And we know that no one deserve, for any reason.

If we demand legal protection and full rights for ourselves, then we must demand the same for any group who doesn't have them.

And that must include unborn human beings.

We're concerned not only for preborn babies but their mothers as well. So often women conceive children in tragic circumstances, or without access to effective birth control. Some women feel that pregnancy may jeopardize their jobs and careers. These women face unbearably tough situations; their choices are not trivial. We know this. We also know that a society which offers the deaths of their children as an acceptable choice doesn't place much value on human life, period -- women's lives included. Pro-life lesbians and gay men work for a society where human life is better valued than it is today. Everyone's life. And where each person is guaranteed the human rights that belong to us all, whether we're female, male, gay, straight, white, people of color, post born or preborn.

Until now, there has been no gay/lesbian organization to take action on these convictions until the Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians. In 1990, PLAGAL came into being out of the rock-bottom belief that when anything threatens human life, rights, or dignity, that threat must go. Homophobia's one such threat. Abortion's another.

Interested? Have questions? Complete the slip on the other side and sd it in. Or mail it to us in an envelope -- all correspondence is confidential. Or call us at 202/223-6697

http://www.sehlat.com/lifelink/plagal.html

http://www.plagal.org/

[Abbey Marie]

If the woman gets sole power over the life or death of a co-created child because "it's her body", why shouldn't a breadwinner man get sole possession of his pay in a separation or divorce? After all, "It's his job and his paycheck".

But the courts (rightly) understand that though the man has earned/"created" the money, the couple have both contributed to the their joint livelihood albeit in different (and for the woman, often less conspicuous) ways.

Similarly, though the baby is physically in the woman's body, these two people have jointly created it so they should both have rights regarding it's future.

[Missileman]

If the woman gets sole power over the life or death of a co-created child because "it's her body", why shouldn't a breadwinner man get sole posession of his pay in a separation or divorce? After all, "It's his job and his paycheck".

But the courts (rightly) understand that though the man has earned/"created" the money, the couple have both contributed to the their joint livelihood in albeit in different (and for the woman, often less conspicuous) ways.

Similarly, though the baby is physically in the woman's body, these two people have jointly created it so they should both have rights regarding it's future.

You can't give the man rights without taking the right away from the woman. If the mother's life is in danger and the man wants the kid instead of the wife, what then?

[PostmodernProphet]

If the mother's life is in danger and the man wants the kid instead of the wife, what then?

society has made the choice in favor of the mother's life for hundreds of years.....why do you think the choice would be more difficult now?.......

[bullypulpit]

society has made the choice in favor of the mother's life for hundreds of years.....why do you think the choice would be more difficult now?.......

Because the lunatic fringe, which is becoming more and more mainstream as time marches on, of America's religious right is making it so. :dunno:

[bullypulpit]

Bullypulpit there are pro-life gay & lesbian groups that actively fight for the baby's life, just because your a liberal is no reason to excuse abortion.


http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1306/plagalheartplain.png

We fight homophobia, in every way we can. We organize. We lobby. We vote. And we demand the same basic rights heterosexual take for granted.

But lesbians and gay men are not the only ones whose rights get trashed. Every day, other groups of people are walked over because of their gender, race, ethnic background, religion, politics -- you name it. And we've come to realize that we can't work for our own rights alone, while others suffer discrimination. So we work for their rights, too.

Why? Because their rights and our rights are the same human rights: Not different -- exactly the same. None of us is truly free until all of us are free, with all our rights intact and guaranteed, including the basic right to live without threat or harassment.

And that's why we're Pro-Life. Just like homophobia, abortion tries tot rid of real human beings who are considered threatening or undesirable. Just like homophobia, abortion denies one's place as a member of human society, and even one's right to be alive in it.

We know all too well what that's like. And we know that no one deserve, for any reason.

If we demand legal protection and full rights for ourselves, then we must demand the same for any group who doesn't have them.

And that must include unborn human beings.

We're concerned not only for preborn babies but their mothers as well. So often women conceive children in tragic circumstances, or without access to effective birth control. Some women feel that pregnancy may jeopardize their jobs and careers. These women face unbearably tough situations; their choices are not trivial. We know this. We also know that a society which offers the deaths of their children as an acceptable choice doesn't place much value on human life, period -- women's lives included. Pro-life lesbians and gay men work for a society where human life is better valued than it is today. Everyone's life. And where each person is guaranteed the human rights that belong to us all, whether we're female, male, gay, straight, white, people of color, post born or preborn.

Until now, there has been no gay/lesbian organization to take action on these convictions until the Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians. In 1990, PLAGAL came into being out of the rock-bottom belief that when anything threatens human life, rights, or dignity, that threat must go. Homophobia's one such threat. Abortion's another.

Interested? Have questions? Complete the slip on the other side and sd it in. Or mail it to us in an envelope -- all correspondence is confidential. Or call us at 202/223-6697

http://www.sehlat.com/lifelink/plagal.html

http://www.plagal.org/

I'm not trying to "excuse" anything. Does the existence of an undifferentiated mass of cells in a woman's womb trump the life and livelyhood of the woman... the ability of a family to provide for the children they may already have? No.

This absolutist, and nonsensical view that human life begins at conception fails to take into account everything which goes into the decision to terminate a pregnancy, never mind that most occur within the first 9 weeks of a pregnancy. And until the conditions which might lead a woman to choose that path are eliminated or ameliorated, there will be a need for safe, legal abortions.

[PostmodernProphet]

Because the lunatic fringe, which is becoming more and more mainstream as time marches on, of America's religious right is making it so. :dunno:
I will agree the lunatic fringe is becoming more mainstream, but so long as conservative keep trying it's my hope we can keep you under control......what could be more "lunatic" than arguing it's okay to kill your unborn children?......

[bullypulpit]

I will agree the lunatic fringe is becoming more mainstream, but so long as conservative keep trying it's my hope we can keep you under control......what could be more "lunatic" than arguing it's okay to kill your unborn children?......

"Unborn children" = oxymoron. Emphasis on "moron" in your case.

[Jeff]

I see all in this thread make a good argument but how about let it be the woman's choice as some of stated and for now on when a woman gets pregnant ask her boyfriend if he wishes to have the responsibility for the next 18 years if he says no he is off the hook ?

This way it is fair to all parties involved, she can abort ( kill the baby ) if she wants, and he can just say the hell with it I don't want the responsibility

Or maybe if ya are old enough to lay down together both parties ought to be held accountable for there actions

Of course this does not pertain to a woman who's health depends on it, or in a case such as rape

But lets get real people if 2 consenting adults lay down together the child is both of theirs,And I know at least one here will argue that it is not a child, so lets just call it a responsability, IMO killing a baby is murder but that is my opinion, but as a father you are damn right the minute my wife was pregnant I had a child on the way also

[PostmodernProphet]

"Unborn children" = oxymoron. Emphasis on "moron" in your case.

let's be honest, bully.....I think it takes someone really fucked up to argue it's okay to kill an unborn fetus, whether you consider it a "child" or not......

[Abbey Marie]

You can't give the man rights without taking the right away from the woman. If the mother's life is in danger and the man wants the kid instead of the wife, what then?

That's an extreme situation and can be easily allowed for. What if, as is the case probably 99.9% of the time, the woman's life is not in danger?

[Missileman]

That's an extreme situation and can be easily allowed for. What if, as is the case probably 99.9% of the time, the woman's life is not in danger?

Then you fall back to the first part of my post: You can't give the man any rights in the decision without taking rights away from the woman. That's going to be the case until they figure out a way to transfer the fetus and let the man carry it to term.

[avatar4321]

why is limiting how many children you can have the governments?

[chloe]

Then you fall back to the first part of my post: You can't give the man any rights in the decision without taking rights away from the woman. That's going to be the case until they figure out a way to transfer the fetus and let the man carry it to term.

I'd rather die then murder a baby. First off the man and woman are both responsible for the baby, they can both relinquish their rights to the baby its called adoption. Second, maybe the baby needs a guardian ad lidem to protect its right to live. Scientists have their own agenda for playing down the life inside a womans womb. They sure don't mind to solicit a woman for the leftover fetus cells to do research with. Christians knows those embryo's grow into babies and they even donate that to save a life.


the following definitions for participants in the Snowflakes program:
Genetic Parents: The genetic parents fill the role most commonly associated with “birthparents” in traditional adoptions.
The frozen embryo is the pre-born child of the genetic parents. The genetic parents have the legal right to custody of their
frozen embryos, and they have generally assigned physical custody temporarily to a fertility clinic or laboratory. Because the
existence of frozen embryos has resulted from recent advances in medical technology, legal standards for treatment of
these embryos are still being defined. With some exceptions, the law views genetic parents’ right to custody more as
ownership than as part of parental rights and obligations.
Pre-born Child: A frozen embryo is a pre-born child, subject to many of the same risks of survival as any pre-born child.

http://www.nightlight.org/adoption-services/snowflakes-embryo/default.aspx

[PostmodernProphet]

Then you fall back to the first part of my post: You can't give the man any rights in the decision without taking rights away from the woman. That's going to be the case until they figure out a way to transfer the fetus and let the man carry it to term.

and is it wrong to limit the rights of a woman to save a life?.....

[chloe]

there is a law where men can relequish all their parental rights to a child, and women can do the same. however the baby has a right to live no matter the inconveniance. Don't have sex if you dont want a consequence, or get a vasectomy or tubes ties or hysterectomy.

[Missileman]

I'd rather die then murder a baby. First off the man and woman are both responsible for the baby, they can both relinquish their rights to the baby its called adoption. Second, maybe the baby needs a guardian ad lidem to protect its right to live. Scientists have their own agenda for playing down the life inside a womans womb. They sure don't mind to solicit a woman for the leftover fetus cells to do research with. Christians knows those embryo's grow into babies and they even donate that to save a life.


the following definitions for participants in the Snowflakes program:
Genetic Parents: The genetic parents fill the role most commonly associated with “birthparents” in traditional adoptions.
The frozen embryo is the pre-born child of the genetic parents. The genetic parents have the legal right to custody of their
frozen embryos, and they have generally assigned physical custody temporarily to a fertility clinic or laboratory. Because the
existence of frozen embryos has resulted from recent advances in medical technology, legal standards for treatment of
these embryos are still being defined. With some exceptions, the law views genetic parents’ right to custody more as
ownership than as part of parental rights and obligations.
Pre-born Child: A frozen embryo is a pre-born child, subject to many of the same risks of survival as any pre-born child.

http://www.nightlight.org/adoption-services/snowflakes-embryo/default.aspx




I'm not sure what the snowflake program has to do with taking rights away from a woman and giving them to a man, but the Pre-born child thing is a hoot. I love the intellectual dishonesty associated with thrusting a fetus through time. A hundred years from now this "pre-born child" is a pre-born corpse.

[Missileman]

there is a law where men can relequish all their parental rights to a child, and women can do the same. however the baby has a right to live no matter the inconveniance. Don't have sex if you dont want a consequence, or get a vasectomy or tubes ties or hysterectomy.

The fetus has no rights that trump the mother's...none!

[chloe]

Main Entry: ba·by
Pronunciation: \ˈbā-bē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural babies
Etymology: Middle English, from babe
Date: 14th century

1 a (1) : an extremely young child; especially : infant


Main Entry: fe·tus
Pronunciation: \ˈfē-təs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful — more at feminine
Date: 14th century

: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth


Main Entry: em·bryo
Pronunciation: \ˈem-brē-ˌō\
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin embryon-, embryo, from Greek embryon, from en- + bryein to swell; akin to Greek bryon catkin
Date: 1548

1 a archaic : a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching b : an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems; especially : the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception

A baby is neither an embryo or a fetus. An "unborn baby" is an oxymoron. The vast majority of induced abortions in this country take place within the first nine weeks of a pregnancy. No "babies" are "killed".

Missiloeman, this was more in response to bully's post

[chloe]

The fetus has no rights that trump the mother's...none!

well Im a mother and Id rather die then my babies:cool:

[Abbey Marie]

Then you fall back to the first part of my post: You can't give the man any rights in the decision without taking rights away from the woman. That's going to be the case until they figure out a way to transfer the fetus and let the man carry it to term.

And you can't give all rights to the woman without taking some rights away from the man.

[Missileman]

And you can't give all rights to the woman without taking some rights away from the man.

You can't take something away that doesn't exist in the first place.

[PostmodernProphet]

but the Pre-born child thing is a hoot.

yeah, we get a chuckle every time you kill one......

[Mr. P]

You can't take something away that doesn't exist in the first place.

But, but, but...it's my seed and she must DO AS I SAY!


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Missileman again.

These people don't care about babies. They only care about imposing THEIR beliefs on others and forcing THEIR will.

If they did care for babies there wouldn't be so many children in the orphanage.

[PostmodernProphet]

But, but, but...it's my seed and she must DO AS I SAY!



These people don't care about babies. They only care about imposing THEIR beliefs on others and forcing THEIR will.

If they did care for babies there wouldn't be so many children in the orphanage.

you know absolutely nothing about adoption and orphanages if you think that's true......there are children in orphanages and foster homes because they've been taken away from abusive parents later in life and the state delays YEARS before they are willing to terminate parental rights.....I expect because of the same theory Miss shares, "nothing trumps a mother's rights"......which is why friends of mine fostered the infant daughter of a drug addicted prostitute for five years, only to see her returned to the mother who was later arrested for trying to sell her.....they then fostered her again till she was eight when she was finally released for adoption and then they adopted her.....

[jimnyc]

Main Entry: ba·by
Pronunciation: \ˈbā-bē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural babies
Etymology: Middle English, from babe
Date: 14th century

1 a (1) : an extremely young child; especially : infant


Didn't read the rest of this thread yet, but noticed you put this definition up but clipped the "alternate" meanings. Allow me to post the full definition:
ba⋅by
  /ˈbeɪbi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA noun, plural -bies, adjective, verb, -bied, -by⋅ing.
Use baby in a Sentence
See web results for baby
See images of baby
–noun
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
3. the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4. an immature or childish person.
[B]5. a human fetus.
6. Informal.
a. Sometimes Disparaging and Offensive. a girl or woman, esp. an attractive one.
b. a person of whom one is deeply fond; sweetheart.
c. (sometimes initial capital letter) an affectionate or familiar address (sometimes offensive when used to strangers, casual acquaintances, subordinates, etc., esp. by a male to a female).
d. a man or boy; chap; fellow: He's a tough baby to have to deal with.
e. an invention, creation, project, or the like that requires one's special attention or expertise or of which one is especially proud.
f. an object; thing: Is that car there your baby?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby

[jimnyc]

These people don't care about babies. They only care about imposing THEIR beliefs on others and forcing THEIR will.

If they did care for babies there wouldn't be so many children in the orphanage.

With all due respect, please don't attempt to speak for me. I care for each and every baby conceived. I care for the Mom's rights, the Dad's "nonexistent" rights, and the never ending argument of the baby's rights.

I don't want a woman to be harmed because of having a baby.

I think a woman should obviously have rights regarding the baby she is carrying. She should certainly have more rights when speaking of rape or incest.

I think a Man deserves MORE rights when it comes to a baby conceived between 2 loving couples. (not more than the woman, just more rights than Men have now)

I think ANY living being deserves more rights than indiscriminate killing as a form of birth control.

Again, I don't have all the answers to fix these issues. I wish I did. But to paint such a wide brush and make it seem as if none of us actually care about the babies is unfair.

[PostmodernProphet]

Didn't read the rest of this thread yet, but noticed you put this definition up but clipped the "alternate" meanings. Allow me to post the full definition:
[/INDENT]ba⋅by
  /ˈbeɪbi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA noun, plural -bies, adjective, verb, -bied, -by⋅ing.
Use baby in a Sentence
See web results for baby
See images of baby
–noun
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
3. the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4. an immature or childish person.
[B]5. a human fetus.
6. Informal.
a. Sometimes Disparaging and Offensive. a girl or woman, esp. an attractive one.
b. a person of whom one is deeply fond; sweetheart.
c. (sometimes initial capital letter) an affectionate or familiar address (sometimes offensive when used to strangers, casual acquaintances, subordinates, etc., esp. by a male to a female).
d. a man or boy; chap; fellow: He's a tough baby to have to deal with.
e. an invention, creation, project, or the like that requires one's special attention or expertise or of which one is especially proud.
f. an object; thing: Is that car there your baby?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby

oh....so THAT'S what "pwned" means.....

[Jeff]

But, but, but...it's my seed and she must DO AS I SAY!



These people don't care about babies. They only care about imposing THEIR beliefs on others and forcing THEIR will.

If they did care for babies there wouldn't be so many children in the orphanage.

Have to agree and dis agree with ya here Mr.P , it is my seed and if 2 consenting adults lay down together and the male will be financially responsible for the next 18 years why shouldn't he have a say in whether the woman kills the baby or not, as I stated before if it is solely up to the female then the male ought to be asked if he wishes to take responsibility

As for only imposing my beliefs, I have 4 children and wouldn't dreamed of aborting any of them, as for the orphanages , many are taken from bad parents later in life, others are given up for adoption , but did you know in this country it is extremely hard to adopt, when I was young my first child died at 2 days old , the X wife and myself where devastated, we checked into adoption, although the orphanages are so full as you say, we were told there was a waiting list that would of made us old by the time we could of adopted, then there was the money ya had to have in the bank account, all to give a child a loving home, now if I wanted a child with a illness or a older child that came from a problem family we could of done that, we where told our best bet would be for us to become foster parents, seems very strange with all these babies being in orphanages doesn't it

I personally look at every child as being a blessing, my beleifs, I guess your right, I don't feel a child is a choice it is a child, but again if 2 healthy consenting adults lay down then they both should share the complete responsibility

[stephanie]

I would guess if I were an unborn fetus I would gladly take a life in an orphanage then being sucked from the womb and swirled down a drain..at least I had a CHANCE at life.

[Abbey Marie]

You can't take something away that doesn't exist in the first place.

That is your opinion. My opinion is that a man has rights in something that he has created. Just, as I said before, the wife has rights in the money the husband earns, and the commodities they purchased with that money. If the man has no rights to the baby/fetus, why is he responsible for it after it is born? Either the man has rights and responsibilities all the way from conception to year 18, or he has none. To be inconsistent here is to be illogical.

[Abbey Marie]

But, but, but...it's my seed and she must DO AS I SAY!



These people don't care about babies. They only care about imposing THEIR beliefs on others and forcing THEIR will.

If they did care for babies there wouldn't be so many children in the orphanage.

Wow, that is bad on so many levels.

[PostmodernProphet]

That is your opinion. My opinion is that a man has rights in something that he has created. Just, as I said before, the wife has rights in the money the husband earns, and the commodities they purchased with that money. If the man has no rights to the baby/fetus, why is he responsible for it after it is born? Either the man has rights and responsibilities all the way from conception to year 18, or he has none. To be inconsistent here is to be illogical.

personally I think you flatter him by calling it an "opinion".....one might claim the world is flat and that the sun rotates around the earth.....one might claim the unborn aren't living human beings equally entitled to life as he is.....those aren't "opinions"......those are delusions......

[Missileman]

That is your opinion. My opinion is that a man has rights in something that he has created. Just, as I said before, the wife has rights in the money the husband earns, and the commodities they purchased with that money. If the man has no rights to the baby/fetus, why is he responsible for it after it is born? Either the man has rights and responsibilities all the way from conception to year 18, or he has none. To be inconsistent here is to be illogical.

IMO you and others are confusing responsibilities and rights. They are two different things. A man has responsibilities because he helped create a child but those responsibilities start at birth. Coincidentally, that is when he might also acquire parental rights. You have to draw the line there because as I've said you can't give the man any rights to what goes on inside a woman's body without taking her rights away. That's the reason your "conception to 18" argument is illogical.

[Jeff]

IMO you and others are confusing responsibilities and rights. They are two different things. A man has responsibilities because he helped create a child but those responsibilities start at birth. Coincidentally, that is when he might also acquire parental rights. You have to draw the line there because as I've said you can't give the man any rights to what goes on inside a woman's body without taking her rights away. That's the reason your "conception to 18" argument is illogical.

I think you make a excellent point Missleman, but if the woman decides to keep the child isn't the man responsible for medical bills before the child is born ?

Although morally I disagree with ya, your point about ya can't give a man any rights without taking rights from the woman is true

Not sure how ya could fix it , if there even is a way, but I surely don't feel it is right for a woman to be able to make the decsion on her own

[Missileman]

I think you make a excellent point Missleman, but if the woman decides to keep the child isn't the man responsible for medical bills before the child is born ?


Maybe in some states...I'm not sure. Maybe as part of a paternity suit.

[Jeff]

Maybe in some states...I'm not sure. Maybe as part of a paternity suit.

I tried to find something on google but not much came up

[Mr. P]

I tried to find something on google but not much came up

Well...not so fast! If that were true this thread wouldn't exist. :beer:

[Jeff]

Well...not so fast! If that were true this thread wouldn't exist. :beer:

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

How true

[bullypulpit]

Didn't read the rest of this thread yet, but noticed you put this definition up but clipped the "alternate" meanings. Allow me to post the full definition:
[/INDENT]ba⋅by
  /ˈbeɪbi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA noun, plural -bies, adjective, verb, -bied, -by⋅ing.
Use baby in a Sentence
See web results for baby
See images of baby
–noun
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
3. the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4. an immature or childish person.
[B]5. a human fetus.
6. Informal.
a. Sometimes Disparaging and Offensive. a girl or woman, esp. an attractive one.
b. a person of whom one is deeply fond; sweetheart.
c. (sometimes initial capital letter) an affectionate or familiar address (sometimes offensive when used to strangers, casual acquaintances, subordinates, etc., esp. by a male to a female).
d. a man or boy; chap; fellow: He's a tough baby to have to deal with.
e. an invention, creation, project, or the like that requires one's special attention or expertise or of which one is especially proud.
f. an object; thing: Is that car there your baby?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>1ba·by</b>
Pronunciation: \ˈbā-bē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural <b>babies</b>
Etymology: Middle English, from babe
Date: 14th century

1 a (1) : an extremely young child; especially : infant (2) : an extremely young animal b : the youngest of a group
2 a : one that is like a baby (as in behavior) b : something that is one's special responsibility, achievement, or interest
3 slang a : girl, woman —often used in address b : boy, man —often used in address
4 : person, thing <is one tough baby> - <a href=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/baby>Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary</a></blockquote>

Sorry Jim...I'll take Webster's word on it. All semantics aside, the facts do not support your position.

[-Cp]

Because she's the one carrying it to term?

If it's a case of rape or incest, there's no need to involve the sperm donor. Same if the donor physically and/or psychologically abuses the woman. If the donor won't "man up" and take responsibility, he loses any right to make a decision. Which leaves a fraction of those for whom the pregnancy was a result of birth control failure and are in a long standing and loving relationship with their partner. The choice then falls to both.

I just love the way y'all ignore everything else to make one tedious, and ultimately irrelevant, point.

It is commonly assumed that rape victims who become pregnant would naturally want abortions. But in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent chose against abortion. This evidence alone should cause people to pause and reflect on the presumption that abortion is wanted or even best for sexual assault victims.

References

1. Mahkorn, "Pregnancy and Sexual Assault," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall & Watts, (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 55-69.

Rape and Incest: Just 1% of All Abortions
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/13/us/rape-and-incest-just-1-of-all-abortions.html

[HogTrash]

How about if we afforded the unborn baby the same due-process of law that all other Americans enjoy by allowing a court trial with a jury of 12 to decide whether or not the baby should be sentenced to death.

The prosecution and defense could call the mother, father, grandparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, doctors or any other people as witnesses that may have a personal interest in the unborn baby's future.

[Missileman]

How about if we afforded the unborn baby the same due-process of law that all other Americans enjoy by allowing a court trial with a jury of 12 to decide whether or not the baby should be sentenced to death.

The prosecution and defense could call the mother, father, grandparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, doctors or any other people as witnesses that may have a personal interest in the unborn baby's future.

Sounds good...do we charge your god with murder if the baby is stillborn?

[HogTrash]

Sounds good...do we charge your god with murder if the baby is stillborn?If you wanna take on "god", give it your best shot rambo.

But as for myself, I don't question the will of the big guy.

[chloe]

Sounds good...do we charge your god with murder if the baby is stillborn?


why did you bring God into it? You dont have to be religious to be against abortion.

[Missileman]

If you wanna take on "god", give it your best shot rambo.

But as for myself, I don't question the will of the big guy.

If your god is capable of murder, how is it you're so certain that it's also against abortion?

[Missileman]

why did you bring God into it? You dont have to be religious to be against abortion.

Lots of folks operate under the premise that any termination of a pregnancy is murder.

[Jeff]

Lots of folks operate under the premise that any termination of a pregnancy is murder.

Used as birth control it is Murder

[chloe]

Lots of folks operate under the premise that any termination of a pregnancy is murder.

I don't understand your answer to what I asked. Sorry.

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't understand your answer to what I asked. Sorry.

that's because it wasn't rationally related to what you asked......

[chloe]

that's because it wasn't rationally related to what you asked......

I'm glad i wasn't the only one who was confused by that.

[HogTrash]

If your god is capable of murder, how is it you're so certain that it's also against abortion?You're assuming two things;

1 - That because a baby dies of natural causes it is God's doing, will or responsibility.

2 - That I only believe abortion is wrong for religious reasons when I am neither religious nor a Christian.

I believe there is a greater force in the universe which I will refer to as "God" because of my admitted ignorance of exactly who or what it is.

I believe God played a major role in our creation and developement but is not here watching over us as so many take comfort in believing.

The miracles he left us was our superior intelligence to learn, to grow, and to create, to better our lives and to watch over ourselves and each other.

If God's plan is successful and we somehow survive the trials and errors we will someday make our way out into the universe to become part of whatever awaits us there.

[Missileman]

I don't understand your answer to what I asked. Sorry.

You're right...it wasn't a very good answer to your question. A better answer is this: If we're going to allow aunts, uncles, doctors, cousins, friends, neighbors, and a myriad of other people for whom the matter is none of their business testify as to why or why not an abortion should be performed, then "god", who aborts some 15% of all pregnancies is most certainly relevant to the proceedings.

[Missileman]

You're assuming two things;

1 - That because a baby dies of natural causes it is God's doing, will or responsibility.



I made that assumption based on your statement.

[chloe]

You're right...it wasn't a very good answer to your question. A better answer is this: If we're going to allow aunts, uncles, doctors, cousins, friends, neighbors, and a myriad of other people for whom the matter is none of their business testify as to why or why not an abortion should be performed, then "god", who aborts some 15% of all pregnancies is most certainly relevant to the proceedings.

Still, no reason to bring God or religion into it. Not everyone is religious or believes in God, however, I think that the baby should decide on its life. So a man and woman have sex and the woman gets pregnant, then the baby decides whether it will live or die, see the baby grows and then is born or the woman has a natural miscarriage. That solves it being the choice for the man or the woman, because their choice was before conception, as in vasectomy, hysterectomy, tubes ties sorta thing. If they take a risk beyond that, it becomes the choice of the new life they created.

[Missileman]

Still, no reason to bring God or religion into it. Not everyone is religious or believes in God, however, I think that the baby should decide on its life. So a man and woman have sex and the woman gets pregnant, then the baby decides whether it will live or die, see the baby grows and then is born or the woman has a natural miscarriage. That solves it being the choice for the man or the woman, because their choice was before conception, as in vasectomy, hysterectomy, tubes ties sorta thing. If they take a risk beyond that, it becomes the choice of the new life they created.

So if the baby decides it's going to kill mom in the process, in your opinion it's "too bad mom"?

[chloe]

So if the baby decides it's going to kill mom in the process, in your opinion it's "too bad mom"?


Can you provide me research showing that happening statistics and all nowadays? Also in your opinion should a man get to have a say in deciding on abortion? should a woman decide on abortion for purely financial reasons, can you list the reasons appropriate in Your Opinion of when women should decide on abortion?

[Missileman]

Can you provide me research showing that happening statistics and all nowadays? Also in your opinion should a man get to have a say in deciding on abortion? should a woman decide on abortion for purely financial reasons, can you list the reasons appropriate in Your Opinion of when women should decide on abortion?

Type dangerous pregancy in a search engine and read up.

[chloe]

Type dangerous pregancy in a search engine and read up.

I'd rather you provide your stats if you feel like asking the question.:cool: Also if you can answer the personal questions I asked you too that would be great.

[Missileman]

Can you provide me research showing that happening statistics and all nowadays? Also in your opinion should a man get to have a say in deciding on abortion? should a woman decide on abortion for purely financial reasons, can you list the reasons appropriate in Your Opinion of when women should decide on abortion?

I am in favor of abortions with restrictions. During the first trimester I'm okay with a woman getting an abortion for any reason. After the first trimester, she should carry to term except in cases of rape/incest, health of the mother, or in cases of severe defect.

[Missileman]

I'd rather you provide your stats if you feel like asking the question.:cool: Also if you can answer the personal questions I asked you too that would be great.

Uh, they're not MY stats, but here's a link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/10/health/dangerous-complication-of-pregnancy-becomes-more-common.html?pagewanted=1

8-10 maternal deaths per 100,000 births...and it's only the 2nd leading cause of maternal death.

[chloe]

Uh, they're not MY stats, but here's a link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/10/health/dangerous-complication-of-pregnancy-becomes-more-common.html?pagewanted=1

8-10 maternal deaths per 100,000 births...and it's only the 2nd leading cause of maternal death.

Thats kind of old stats. Do you think Men should have any say in abortion?

[Missileman]

Thats kind of old stats. Do you think Men should have any say in abortion?

Only if they're a doctor.

[Missileman]

Thats kind of old stats. Do you think Men should have any say in abortion?

http://www.who.int/whosis/mme_2005.pdf

In the United States, the maternal death rate was 11 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in 2005.[9]

[chloe]

Only if they're a doctor.

Well that is what my basic question is in this thread, why is abortion a "womans" choice. So you think a man has NO accountability for the baby ? It is all on the woman to kill the baby? Interesting.

[chloe]

http://www.who.int/whosis/mme_2005.pdf

In the United States, the maternal death rate was 11 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in 2005.[9]

so 11 abortions vs a potential 100,000 abortions in a case of health related issues in the pregnancy?

[PostmodernProphet]

Uh, they're not MY stats, but here's a link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/10/health/dangerous-complication-of-pregnancy-becomes-more-common.html?pagewanted=1

8-10 maternal deaths per 100,000 births...and it's only the 2nd leading cause of maternal death.

8-10 deaths per 100,000 due to maternity?.....that's approximately the death rate resulting from legal abortions.....

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/figures/s212a1t19.gif

[Missileman]

Well that is what my basic question is in this thread, why is abortion a "womans" choice. So you think a man has NO accountability for the baby ? It is all on the woman to kill the baby? Interesting.

You are one of the people I was talking about earlier in the thread. You are confusing responsibilities and rights. I've stated that the man has responsibilities and potentially parental rights, but they begin at birth, not conception. Until men can be pregnant, that's reality.

[Missileman]

so 11 abortions vs a potential 100,000 abortions in a case of health related issues in the pregnancy?

So, is your stance "tough luck mom"?

[chloe]

So, is your stance "tough luck mom"?

nope not my stance. I think men have a responsibility at the moment of conception.:cool: