View Full Version : Putting the Universe in scale
Simply amazing, imo,
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That is a cool video, however, I disagree with its ending statement..
We ARE the center - God in fact made the entire universe to display his splendor to us...
Romans 1 tell us that:
9For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
HogTrash
12-17-2009, 02:11 PM
Why have the ladies been telling me size doesn't matter? :confused::wtf:
That is a cool video, however, I disagree with its ending statement..
We ARE the center - God in fact made the entire universe to display his splendor to us...
Romans 1 tell us that:
9For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
No, we are not the centre of the universe, it is only human arrogance that would claim so.
And quoting the bible as proof is a lil silly, no? After-all of course it is proof of itself, in the same way that the Qur'an is proof of itself ect ect.
Also from this you would also propose that God created Quantum Mechanics, which would be self defeating,
No, we are not the centre of the universe, it is only human arrogance that would claim so.
And quoting the bible as proof is a lil silly, no? After-all of course it is proof of itself, in the same way that the Qur'an is proof of itself ect ect.
Also from this you would also propose that God created Quantum Mechanics, which would be self defeating,
I didn't expect your carnal mind to understand it...
I didn't expect your carnal mind to understand it...
Well atleast try, Sir.
Quantum mechanics makes Gods irrelevant.
KarlMarx
12-17-2009, 02:53 PM
Well atleast try, Sir.
Quantum mechanics makes Gods irrelevant.
????? how do you figure that????
????? how do you figure that????
Because given its existence you would have parallel universes with no gods, some with many gods, ect ect.
And if you say that there is one true god existing outside of quantum mechanics is all universes, then you are still left with the problem of human changes that would say for example have caused the Crowds to release Jesus instead of Barabus (sp?)
The ideas of religion are incompatible with multi-verse theory.
Mr. P
12-17-2009, 03:41 PM
Why have the ladies been telling me size doesn't matter? :confused::wtf:
They were being kind and didn't want to embarrass you. :poke:
KarlMarx
12-17-2009, 04:21 PM
Because given its existence you would have parallel universes with no gods, some with many gods, ect ect.
And if you say that there is one true god existing outside of quantum mechanics is all universes, then you are still left with the problem of human changes that would say for example have caused the Crowds to release Jesus instead of Barabus (sp?)
The ideas of religion are incompatible with multi-verse theory.
Perhaps the quantum mechanics you cite are God... at least yours
Perhaps the quantum mechanics you cite are God... at least yours
Quantum mechanics are god?
So you can measure and manipulate god? Interesting.
Well atleast try, Sir.
Quantum mechanics makes Gods irrelevant.
1 Corinthians 3:19:
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
1 Corinthians 3:19:
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
Say what now?
Gaffer
12-17-2009, 06:14 PM
Say what now?
Noir your arguing with a guy who thinks everything in the universe was made in six days and it's all five thousand years old. He also believes dinosaurs lived at the same time as men and were wiped out in Noah's flood. He believes there is a Jewish conspiracy to control the world, 911 was an inside job and the moon landing was fake. You might want to spend your time reading a book to your dog.
Noir your arguing with a guy who thinks everything in the universe was made in six days and it's all five thousand years old. He also believes dinosaurs lived at the same time as men and were wiped out in Noah's flood. He believes there is a Jewish conspiracy to control the world, 911 was an inside job and the moon landing was fake. You might want to spend your time reading a book to your dog.
I see, ignorance is bliss i guess.
darin
12-17-2009, 07:52 PM
Noir your arguing with a guy who thinks everything in the universe was made in six days and it's all five thousand years old. He also believes dinosaurs lived at the same time as men and were wiped out in Noah's flood. He believes there is a Jewish conspiracy to control the world, 911 was an inside job and the moon landing was fake. You might want to spend your time reading a book to your dog.
And you're generalizing, removing from context, and making stuff up about what -Cp believes, bro.
I see, ignorance is bliss i guess.
See - that's the rub. People who don't know God simply refuse Truth. They are willfully ignorant for a myriad of reason..fear, arrogance - just to name two.
Your refusal to believe in God doesn't make Him any less real.
And you're generalizing, removing from context, and making stuff up about what -Cp believes, bro.
See - that's the rub. People who don't know God simply refuse Truth. They are willfully ignorant for a myriad of reason..fear, arrogance - just to name two.
Your refusal to believe in God doesn't make Him any less real.
And anyones beliefs in a god do not alter facts of Physics, one set of which, Quantum physics, are incompatible with the notion of gods.
Missileman
12-17-2009, 08:58 PM
And you're generalizing, removing from context, and making stuff up about what -Cp believes, bro.
See - that's the rub. People who don't know God simply refuse Truth. They are willfully ignorant for a myriad of reason..fear, arrogance - just to name two.
Your refusal to believe in God doesn't make Him any less real.
You belief in it makes it no more real than the Easter Bunny.
Gaffer
12-17-2009, 09:25 PM
And you're generalizing, removing from context, and making stuff up about what -Cp believes, bro.
See - that's the rub. People who don't know God simply refuse Truth. They are willfully ignorant for a myriad of reason..fear, arrogance - just to name two.
Your refusal to believe in God doesn't make Him any less real.
What did I take out of context or make up? Generalized, yes. For the purpose of keeping things short. I have just listed a few things he's argued for in the past.
PostmodernProphet
12-17-2009, 11:46 PM
Well atleast try, Sir.
Quantum mechanics makes Gods irrelevant.
why?.....don't you think an infinite deity could handle multiple universes?......
PostmodernProphet
12-17-2009, 11:47 PM
And anyones beliefs in a god do not alter facts of Physics, one set of which, Quantum physics, are incompatible with the notion of gods.
whoa....when did quantum physics get elevated to "fact" instead of "theory"?.......
whoa....when did quantum physics get elevated to "fact" instead of "theory"?.......
Does your computer work?
You realize that the physics behind transistors only works via quantum events.
It has also been tested in labs (look-up the double-slit experiment)
and the Sun shines does it not? Such reactions that happen within our sun would not be possible without quantum mechanics.
The only debate to be had is which of the 5 models of parallel universes exist, and it could possibly be all of them. But quantum mechanics is as much a fact as gravity and magnetic forces.
why?.....don't you think an infinite deity could handle multiple universes?......
So in these mutli-verses are the independent and separate heavens? because in some you would make it to heaven, in some you wouldn't, in some Jesus would have been murdered when he was a baby ect ect ect. You find all the possibilities compatible with One god?
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 06:45 AM
Does your computer work?
You realize that the physics behind transistors only works via quantum events.
It has also been tested in labs (look-up the double-slit experiment)
and the Sun shines does it not? Such reactions that happen within our sun would not be possible without quantum mechanics.
The only debate to be had is which of the 5 models of parallel universes exist, and it could possibly be all of them. But quantum mechanics is as much a fact as gravity and magnetic forces.
you seem to be confusing matters......parallel universes are not required so the sun can shine or transistors work......
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 06:47 AM
So in these mutli-verses are the independent and separate heavens? because in some you would make it to heaven, in some you wouldn't, in some Jesus would have been murdered when he was a baby ect ect ect. You find all the possibilities compatible with One god?
first of all, you assume heaven is in a universe....second you presume that God cannot control what happens in any universe.....if God didn't want Jesus murdered as a baby he would not have been murdered as a baby.....I find THAT compatible with One God.......
you seem to be confusing matters......parallel universes are not required so the sun can shine or transistors work......
Not obviously no, but they are a bi-product.
Whenever an event happens at the quantum level it both happens and doesn't happen at the sane time. While this may seem a stupid comment to make, it can be, and has been, tested in labs (again look up tge double slit experiment) if something both happens and doesn't happen but we only see one event (i.e. It happening or not happening) then his gives rise to parrellel universes.
Again as per your previous post, Quantum physics is fact.
The type of prarellel universes that exist (multi-verse, many world, omni-verse ect) are still being debated, but there are tests being planned at CERN and NICK to try and answer this question.
first of all, you assume heaven is in a universe....second you presume that God cannot control what happens in any universe.....if God didn't want Jesus murdered as a baby he would not have been murdered as a baby.....I find THAT compatible with One God.......
So basicly your saying that no matter what happens it all must be Gods will anyway?
So let me spin you another ball, take 2 different universes, on this one you are a chirstian, on another an athiest. Are you getting into heaven? And keep in mind that there are not one or two other universes, but an infinate number tgat would simply be too large to comphrend.
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 07:59 AM
Again as per your previous post, Quantum physics is fact.
so is God....it's just that we both have to take it on faith......
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 08:08 AM
So basicly your saying that no matter what happens it all must be Gods will anyway?
no, that would imply that I am capable of understanding and anticipating God's will.....what I am saying is that the mere existence of alternate universes would not be sufficient to obstruct the will of a deity who created the universes..... he might in some instances choose to take no action.....he might take action which will have consequences different than those we observe, we make assumptions about what he has done, but those assumptions are in error.....
So let me spin you another ball, take 2 different universes, on this one you are a chirstian, on another an athiest.
on behalf of my alternate self I object to the implied insult.....if that other "me" isn't smart enough not to be an atheist, it isn't really an alternate "me".......no, that other "me" that isn't like "me" would not be going to heaven if it rejected the existence of God.....
so is God....it's just that we both have to take it on faith......
There is no faith needed for Quantum physics, it is a fact, you can observe it, and we use it everyday. You would not say you have 'faith' in gravity, in the same way you should not have 'faith' in Quantum physics.
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 08:17 AM
There is no faith needed for Quantum physics, it is a fact, you can observe it, and we use it everyday. You would not say you have 'faith' in gravity, in the same way you should not have 'faith' in Quantum physics.
again, you make it seem as if "quantum physics" is the equivalent of "there are parallel universes"......that is your step of faith.....
KarlMarx
12-18-2009, 08:21 AM
Quantum mechanics are god?
So you can measure and manipulate god? Interesting.
God is anything you place in control of things. It seems you believe that because of quantum mechanics and the *possible* existence of other universes, that there is no need for the God the rest of us believe in. Therefore, it seems like you placed quantum mechanics in the place of God.
So, I guess in your world view everything is a crap shoot, right? Things don't happen for a reason, they are just random occurrences. Somehow that doesn't seem to explain things, if everything is a crap shoot, then how do you explain free will? Is that a quantum mechanical occurrence, too?
The problem with your logic is that you've extrapolated quantum mechanics, which is good at explaining very small things, to explain the universe. Quantum mechanics does not attempt to explain the universe, nor claim to do so. In fact, the very nature of quantum mechanics makes it impossible for it to explain the universe on a large scale.. That is why physicists are trying to find a theory of everything and have been trying to do so for decades.
no, that would imply that I am capable of understanding and anticipating God's will.....what I am saying is that the mere existence of alternate universes would not be sufficient to obstruct the will of a deity who created the universes..... he might in some instances choose to take no action.....he might take action which will have consequences different than those we observe, we make assumptions about what he has done, but those assumptions are in error.....
Indeedy, thats basically a long winded way of saying whatever we observe is Gods will, and if there is nothing to observe then that is also Gods will. Just how wide do you need your base to be? =/
on behalf of my alternate self I object to the implied insult.....if that other "me" isn't smart enough not to be an atheist, it isn't really an alternate "me".......no, that other "me" that isn't like "me" would not be going to heaven if it rejected the existence of God.....
Righto, so the you that is an atheist isn't going to heaven, what about the other you's in other universes who are also Christian, are you all going to heaven? and these other you's are not similar, some are exactly the same in every single way from every thought you make to every breath you take.
Following from this, everyone would go to heaven, and everyone would go to hell at the same time.
again, you make it seem as if "quantum physics" is the equivalent of "there are parallel universes"......that is your step of faith.....
It is not a leap of faith, our physics wouldn't work without it.
If there were not parallel universes then the double slit experiment would have gone as expected, not as it did.
We can observe the effects of parallel universes, we can just not yet describe it, but that description may only be years away if the LCH is able to do as it is hoped. If not, then it may be many more decades away until the LPA is completed and we can try again.
God is anything you place in control of things. It seems you believe that because of quantum mechanics and the *possible* existence of other universes, that there is no need for the God the rest of us believe in. Therefore, it seems like you placed quantum mechanics in the place of God.
Well then yes i guess it is my god...in the same way that the Greeks believed that the Sun was a god riding a fire chariot across the sky. We replaced that god with a massive gas ball, thus replacing their god with our science. This is no different.
So, I guess in your world view everything is a crap shoot, right? Things don't happen for a reason, they are just random occurrences. Somehow that doesn't seem to explain things, if everything is a crap shoot, then how do you explain free will? Is that a quantum mechanical occurrence, too?
No, free will is explained via biology, and discussed great length by people like Hobbes and Locke.
The problem with your logic is that you've extrapolated quantum mechanics, which is good at explaining very small things, to explain the universe. Quantum mechanics does not attempt to explain the universe, nor claim to do so. In fact, the very nature of quantum mechanics makes it impossible for it to explain the universe on a large scale.. That is why physicists are trying to find a theory of everything and have been trying to do so for decades.
Very true, and finding the link between the amazingly small and the amazingly large. Though we have not yet found the link we know that both types of physics work, and our world could not function without them, the lack of a link does not suggest that either are in anyway wrong.
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 11:03 AM
Indeedy, thats basically a long winded way of saying whatever we observe is Gods will, and if there is nothing to observe then that is also Gods will. Just how wide do you need your base to be? =/
/shrugs....the entire universe(s).....
Righto, so the you that is an atheist isn't going to heaven, what about the other you's in other universes who are also Christian, are you all going to heaven? and these other you's are not similar, some are exactly the same in every single way from every thought you make to every breath you take.
Following from this, everyone would go to heaven, and everyone would go to hell at the same time.
?????....only if you were silly enough to think that the "me"s in all the universe were the same person.....if they are in different universes they are distinct from "me" in this universe....they make their own choices.....if there are a million universes it simply means there will be a million times more people in heaven than we would anticipate from this universe......
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 11:06 AM
It is not a leap of faith, our physics wouldn't work without it.
If there were not parallel universes then the double slit experiment would have gone as expected, not as it did.
We can observe the effects of parallel universes, we can just not yet describe it, but that description may only be years away if the LCH is able to do as it is hoped. If not, then it may be many more decades away until the LPA is completed and we can try again.
wrong...there are many theories regarding quantum physics that don't involve parallel universes....we observe a material phenomena......parallel universes is one theory raised to try to explain it.....you have faith that within decades your faith will be supported by evidence.....until it is, it remains faith......
wrong...there are many theories regarding quantum physics that don't involve parallel universes....we observe a material phenomena......parallel universes is one theory raised to try to explain it.....you have faith that within decades your faith will be supported by evidence.....until it is, it remains faith......
Ah, i know not of these other theories, may you please elaborate?
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 11:39 AM
Ah, i know not of these other theories, may you please elaborate?
really?....as I understand it, the "multiverse" theory is the minority approach....
http://library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html
really?....as I understand it, the "multiverse" theory is the minority approach....
http://library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html
First off you're quoting a work that is 25 years old, the modelling of quantum physics has moved a long way in 25 years,
and anyways that page merely goes into how to explain wave/particle duality. That does not interfere with the notion of parallel universes, also 'multiverse' is only one of the 5 theories of parallel universes
First off you're quoting a work that is 25 years old, the modelling of quantum physics has moved a long way in 25 years,
and anyways that page merely goes into how to explain wave/particle duality. That does not interfere with the notion of parallel universes, also 'multiverse' is only one of the 5 theories of parallel universes
"notion" is the correct term indeed!
This thread is an interesting (if simple) example of the Deutsch/Peres debate that has been going on for some years now. I find it ironic that some believe that MWI will be proven in the next few decades; their faith is nearly on par with the proponents of religious dogma.
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 01:33 PM
First off you're quoting a work that is 25 years old, the modelling of quantum physics has moved a long way in 25 years,
and anyways that page merely goes into how to explain wave/particle duality. That does not interfere with the notion of parallel universes, also 'multiverse' is only one of the 5 theories of parallel universes
what are the other four?.....as I understood it, "multiverse" encompasses all theories that explain quantum physics as being evidence of multiple worlds.....
what are the other four?.....as I understood it, "multiverse" encompasses all theories that explain quantum physics as being evidence of multiple worlds.....
Oh erm, can't memo all the names of hand, 'muti-verse' 'omni-verse' 'many worlds' 'Membrane therory' are the 4 names methinks,
"notion" is the correct term indeed!
This thread is an interesting (if simple) example of the Deutsch/Peres debate that has been going on for some years now. I find it ironic that some believe that MWI will be proven in the next few decades; their faith is nearly on par with the proponents of religious dogma.
Well we can just wait for the data to start flowing from the LHC, and then prove what we know must be true.
Well we can just wait for the data to start flowing from the LHC, and then prove what we know must be true.
And the Christians can just wait for the second coming and prove what they assert to be true...
I dunno, sounds like you have FAITH to me!
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 01:54 PM
Oh erm, can't memo all the names of hand, 'muti-verse' 'omni-verse' 'many worlds' 'Membrane therory' are the 4 names methinks,
whatever the name....obviously, there is not yet any scientific evidence for the existence of any other "universe".....the belief in the same is at best an act of faith no different than a belief in a creator....
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 01:55 PM
Well we can just wait for the data to start flowing from the LHC, and then prove what we know must be true.
and I can just wait until I die and ask God if he's real.....
whatever the name....obviously, there is not yet any scientific evidence for the existence of any other "universe".....the belief in the same is at best an act of faith no different than a belief in a creator....
We know they exist by theory, much alike black holes, years ago we knew that black holes must have existed even though there was no direct evidence, but all the boffins got there heads together and worked out methods to detect these phenomena, and such enough we have now observed them, and estimate there to be over 100 million of them in our galaxy alone.
We know Quantum physics is a fact and have built our modern world around it. We know a bi-product of this will be parallel universes. And so the boffins got together again and worked out how to detect them, and to cut a long story short Gravitons are believed to pass freely between universes, and thus projects like the LHC have been set up to try and see Gravitons disappear, and by disappearing from our reality we will know they are passing into a parallel universe.
Then the next grand race will to create a Quantum tunnel.
We know they exist by theory, much alike black holes, years ago we knew that black holes must have existed even though there was no direct evidence, but all the boffins got there heads together and worked out methods to detect these phenomena, and such enough we have now observed them, and estimate there to be over 100 million of them in our galaxy alone.
We know Quantum physics is a fact and have built our modern world around it. We know a bi-product of this will be parallel universes. And so the boffins got together again and worked out how to detect them, and to cut a long story short Gravitons are believed to pass freely between universes, and thus projects like the LHC have been set up to try and see Gravitons disappear, and by disappearing from our reality we will know they are passing into a parallel universe.
Then the next grand race will to create a Quantum tunnel.
LOL...this gets really convoluted doesn't it! Do the "boffins" detect black holes because they exist or because they have inadvertantly developed sensors which cannot help but get any other result? As for the gravitons, does their disappearrance mean they passed into a parallel universe or merely transformed into something we do not have the ability to detect?
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 06:40 PM
We know they exist by theory
lol.....no, you have a theory they exist.....
PostmodernProphet
12-18-2009, 06:51 PM
Then the next grand race will to create a Quantum tunnel.
dude, we have observed "tunneling" already in the universe....but it doesn't lead to the conclusion of an alternate universe.....it merely means something traveled from here to there and we don't know how yet.....
LOL...this gets really convoluted doesn't it! Do the "boffins" detect black holes because they exist or because they have inadvertantly developed sensors which cannot help but get any other result? As for the gravitons, does their disappearrance mean they passed into a parallel universe or merely transformed into something we do not have the ability to detect?
It is very convoluted, but it will only be complex until we can understand it, at which point it will become a simpler idea, and one that is accept just as any other phenomenon of physics.
We know black holes exist because of their event horizon, this is an area close to the black hole, when matter is being sucking into the hole it reaches speeds close to the speed of light, and so emits x-rays, the detection of these x-rays shows black holes.
There are also super-massive black holes (billions of times the mass of our sun) it is believed that ever galaxy may have a supper massive black hole, this can be observer by looking into the centre of our galaxy and viewing the motion of the stars near the centre and viewing how they move (as there paths are greatly distorted by the gravity around the supermassive black hole.
As for the Graviton, that is exactly what will happen, it will turn into something undetectable, as it is no longer in our universe.
lol.....no, you have a theory they exist.....
We know they exist by theory, just as we did with black holes, but of course science is never content with just knowing, and thus has set out to prove it, and hopes to in the LHC within the next few years.
dude, we have observed "tunneling" already in the universe....but it doesn't lead to the conclusion of an alternate universe.....it merely means something traveled from here to there and we don't know how yet.....
I know we have observed it, and we just it everyday. What i meant was the power to make man-made and controlled quantum tunnels.
PostmodernProphet
12-19-2009, 12:05 AM
We know they exist by theory, just as we did with black holes, but of course science is never content with just knowing, and thus has set out to prove it, and hopes to in the LHC within the next few years.
no, you don't....you have a theory they exist.....it's about time for you to admit you are operating on faith, not evidence......
PostmodernProphet
12-19-2009, 12:06 AM
I know we have observed it, and we just it everyday. What i meant was the power to make man-made and controlled quantum tunnels.
you say that as if you think these are "tunnels"to another universe....that isn't what a "tunnel" is.....
Many Worlds Theory
One other interpretation, presented first by Hugh Everett III in 1957, is the many worlds or branching universe interpretation. In this theory, whenever a measurement takes place, the entire universe divides as many times as there are possible outcomes of the measurement. All universes are identical except for the outcome of that measurement. Unlike the science fiction view of "parallel universes", it is not possible for any of these worlds to interact with each other
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