View Full Version : Jesus and the Interpreter. A modern-day christian helps Jesus get started.
True facts
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PostmodernProphet
01-21-2010, 07:15 PM
???...odd that I see the guy in the blue shirt as sounding a lot like atheists......
chesswarsnow
01-21-2010, 07:25 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Some anti-Catholic crap.
2. That and a nickel will get you a sucker, sucker.:laugh2:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
???...odd that I see the guy in the blue shirt as sounding a lot like atheists......
Really? Sounds like a Christian to me.
PostmodernProphet
01-21-2010, 09:56 PM
Really? Sounds like a Christian to me.
nah, the guy deliberately distorts everything that both Jesus and modern Christians say.....definitely an atheist tactic.....you ought to realize that, you do it often enough.....
nah, the guy deliberately distorts everything that both Jesus and modern Christians say.....definitely an atheist tactic.....you ought to realize that, you do it often enough.....
LOL, So take for example all the quotes about giving your possessions to the poor, did jesus not say that? And do Christians give away possessions?
PostmodernProphet
01-22-2010, 08:16 AM
LOL, So take for example all the quotes about giving your possessions to the poor, did jesus not say that? And do Christians give away possessions?
Christians give away many possessions.......you are as aware as I of the number of charities supported by religious organizations, and especially Christian organizations.....as for the bible passage quoted....have you ever read the whole pericope?.....or do you just use the verse you want as a weapon, like the guy who produced the video?.....
The Rich Young Man
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
now, can you honestly tell me that the lesson Jesus was teaching is that we should all go sell everything we have and give it away?.....
when I read that passage I see it talking about someone who thought he could get into heaven on his own.....and Jesus showing him it was impossible to do it on his own because it requires more than he could give.....
it could have been different for different people....in this case it was wealth.....but there is always something that people aren't willing to sacrifice in order to be "perfect" in their actions.....as Jesus said, there is only One who is good......the same message is true in other passages....."so, you think you are generous?....well, give him your coat"....."You think you are patient?.....well, turn the other cheek if they strike you"......"You think you love your neighbor?....well, go love your enemies"........
all were given by Jesus as evidence that humans cannot attain "perfection".....that the only way to righteousness was through him....
...well i dunno about you, but that reads pretty clear to me, it is not good enough just to live by the 10 commandments, to be perfect you must sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will be rewarded in heaven for your selflessness on earth...
Do you read it differently?
I thought it was a pretty accurate depiction of how so many who call themselves Christians ignore huge parts of Christ's teachings...
I thought it was a pretty accurate depiction of how so many who call themselves Christians ignore huge parts of Christ's teachings...
So you live by the letter of the bible and do not chose some bits to be mpre important than others?
PostmodernProphet
01-22-2010, 10:06 PM
...well i dunno about you, but that reads pretty clear to me, it is not good enough just to live by the 10 commandments, to be perfect you must sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will be rewarded in heaven for your selflessness on earth...
Do you read it differently?
yes....because you ignore this part...."There is only One who is good.".....perfection is not attainable....."With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.".....we only attain righteousness through God's actions, not ours......
yes....because you ignore this part...."There is only One who is good.".....perfection is not attainable....."With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.".....we only attain righteousness through God's actions, not ours......
But Jesus says you can be perfect "21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Monkeybone
01-22-2010, 10:20 PM
But Jesus says you can be perfect "21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
i take that not literally, but that it if for the people that hold earthly possessions over their commitment and such to God. If you are so focused on earthly things, then there it becomes difficult to follow teachings.
it is a selfless thing.
Monkeybone
01-22-2010, 10:20 PM
but i ain't exactly a theologian.
i take that not literally, but that it if for the people that hold earthly possessions over their commitment and such to God. If you are so focused on earthly things, then there it becomes difficult to follow teachings.
it is a selfless thing.
Thats the whole point of the video, we decided what we take literally an what not to. Weird when you think about it.
PostmodernProphet
01-23-2010, 07:43 AM
But Jesus says you can be perfect "21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
you argue for a literal translation, then you say "if you want to be perfect, do this" equals "I want you to be perfect, so do this".....did Jesus WANT the guy to sell all his things and give it to the poor or did he want him to come to grips with his own inability.....does he want US to do it?.....what do you think, reading the whole pericope?......
you argue for a literal translation, then you say "if you want to be perfect, do this" equals "I want you to be perfect, so do this".....did Jesus WANT the guy to sell all his things and give it to the poor or did he want him to come to grips with his own inability.....does he want US to do it?.....what do you think, reading the whole pericope?......
Nice of you to bring in literal translations, inwhich case how are you to interpret anything that jesus says, afterall it may have been mistranslated.
But, more to the point, jesus makes clear that the man will be better if he sells his stuff and gives it to the poor, and surly God wants you to be as good as you can, and you want to be as good as you can for God, not just doing enough to get you by and nothing else, surly?
PostmodernProphet
01-23-2010, 08:53 AM
Nice of you to bring in literal translations, inwhich case how are you to interpret anything that jesus says, afterall it may have been mistranslated.
But, more to the point, jesus makes clear that the man will be better if he sells his stuff and gives it to the poor, and surly God wants you to be as good as you can, and you want to be as good as you can for God, not just doing enough to get you by and nothing else, surly?
I don't think he makes that clear at all......again you imply that Jesus wants the man to become "perfect" even though he has just told the man he cannot be.....the whole point of salvation is acknowledging the fact you need it and can't do it yourself, yet you want to make it all hinge on the opposite, that we must "become" something.....there is nothing I can do to "get by"....I am screwed if I try to "get by", I am screwed if I try to be "perfect"......
and I'm not the one who brought in literal translations.....you, and the atheist who produced the video were....as I say, the guy in blue sounds more like an atheist than a Christian....the atheists are the ones who are always using "literal interpretation" as a weapon.....
I don't think he makes that clear at all......again you imply that Jesus wants the man to become "perfect" even though he has just told the man he cannot be.....the whole point of salvation is acknowledging the fact you need it and can't do it yourself, yet you want to make it all hinge on the opposite, that we must "become" something.....there is nothing I can do to "get by"....I am screwed if I try to "get by", I am screwed if I try to be "perfect"......
and I'm not the one who brought in literal translations.....you, and the atheist who produced the video were....as I say, the guy in blue sounds more like an atheist than a Christian....the atheists are the ones who are always using "literal interpretation" as a weapon.....
So you just want to ignore part of what he said, or atleast what this translation of the bible bible says he said. Inwhich case i put it to you again how you can take anything from what he said as gospel?
PostmodernProphet
01-23-2010, 09:01 AM
So you just want to ignore part of what he said, or atleast what this translation of the bible bible says he said. Inwhich case i put it to you again how you can take anything from what he said as gospel?
????....I don't think I am ignoring anything, or ignoring a proper translation of anything......I think you are ignoring the obvious point that is communicated in the passage....likely, because it would make "sell everything you have" less of a weapon in your arsenal of bludgeons.....
????....I don't think I am ignoring anything, or ignoring a proper translation of anything......I think you are ignoring the obvious point that is communicated in the passage....likely, because it would make "sell everything you have" less of a weapon in your arsenal of bludgeons.....
Well in the wee viedo between 3:50 and 4:50 there are several quotes from Jesus all about selling your stuff.
And the 'Modern day chirstian from the future' tells the people not to listen to him, he's not serious about that stuff, its metaphorphical ect.
and here we have you...saying that its not meant as a literal translation, and that its not what Jesus meant...er...ironic, no?
PostmodernProphet
01-23-2010, 10:29 AM
Well in the wee viedo between 3:50 and 4:50 there are several quotes from Jesus all about selling your stuff.
And the 'Modern day chirstian from the future' tells the people not to listen to him, he's not serious about that stuff, its metaphorphical ect.
and here we have you...saying that its not meant as a literal translation, and that its not what Jesus meant...er...ironic, no?
not if both you and the guy who made the video (thus putting the words in the "modern Christian"s mouth) are the ones who are mistranslating Jesus' words.....the other quotes are merely the other passages from the synoptic gospels describing the same incident.....we could examine them all and reach a conclusion...but Matthew is the longest and thus gives us the most to work with....
you conclude that Jesus' statements reveal that it is his desire that we sell all we have and give to the poor....
in the passage, what is the purpose of selling everything and giving it away?.....since the statement begins "if you want to be perfect", do we agree that the purpose of doing so would be to attain perfection?....
is there anything else in the passage which speaks against the conclusion that we should take these steps to attain perfection....
1) Jesus says "There is only One who is good"....perfection is an unattainable goal for a human.
2) Jesus says "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.".....acknowledgment that giving up everything is an exceptionally difficult and probably impossible task for someone who has a great deal.
3) the disciples also recognized this impossibility.....When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"....remember, they were from a culture that assumed that if you complied with the commandments, as the priests defined it, you were assured of "righteousness"......
4) Jesus says "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.".....righteousness is not possible through perfection, it is only possible through God....
5) Jesus says "But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first".....those who expect salvation because of their actions will be disappointed, those that do not expect it will receive it......
now, against that, what is your argument that in his statements Jesus expressed a desire that we all become "perfect" by selling everything we have and giving it away?.....
chesswarsnow
01-23-2010, 01:59 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Some things those outside are not allowed to *Understand*.
2. If all Christians were supposed to be poor, think about who would be helping those in great need?
3. Like we are seeing in Haiti right now.
4. The atheists aren't the ones behind all the help flowing into Haiti right now.
5. A very small sliver of any support has come from them.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Missileman
01-23-2010, 02:50 PM
1. Some things those outside are not allowed to *Understand*.
Riiiight...don't do what the Bible says, do what YOU SAY the Bible says.
chesswarsnow
01-23-2010, 03:58 PM
Sorry bout that,
Riiiight...don't do what the Bible says, do what YOU SAY the Bible says.
1. Spoken like a outsider who can't see the truth.
2. That's how it's always been and shall remain.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
PostmodernProphet
01-23-2010, 04:30 PM
Riiiight...don't do what the Bible says, do what YOU SAY the Bible says.
sure beats doing what some atheist says the Bible says.....
not if both you and the guy who made the video (thus putting the words in the "modern Christian"s mouth) are the ones who are mistranslating Jesus' words.....the other quotes are merely the other passages from the synoptic gospels describing the same incident.....we could examine them all and reach a conclusion...but Matthew is the longest and thus gives us the most to work with....
you conclude that Jesus' statements reveal that it is his desire that we sell all we have and give to the poor....
in the passage, what is the purpose of selling everything and giving it away?.....since the statement begins "if you want to be perfect", do we agree that the purpose of doing so would be to attain perfection?....
is there anything else in the passage which speaks against the conclusion that we should take these steps to attain perfection....
1) Jesus says "There is only One who is good"....perfection is an unattainable goal for a human.
2) Jesus says "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.".....acknowledgment that giving up everything is an exceptionally difficult and probably impossible task for someone who has a great deal.
3) the disciples also recognized this impossibility.....When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"....remember, they were from a culture that assumed that if you complied with the commandments, as the priests defined it, you were assured of "righteousness"......
4) Jesus says "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.".....righteousness is not possible through perfection, it is only possible through God....
5) Jesus says "But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first".....those who expect salvation because of their actions will be disappointed, those that do not expect it will receive it......
now, against that, what is your argument that in his statements Jesus expressed a desire that we all become "perfect" by selling everything we have and giving it away?.....
LOL
So when i interpret the bible i interpret it wrongly, and you interpret it the right waty...
You also go into some detail on on version because it is the longest, and interpret exact details, er, where not you the one arguing about the "translation" of words? and thus their meaning?
The fact that there are several different accounts of Jesus saying 'give your possessions to the poor' would surly suggest it is both a) important and b) he meant it?
The fact is you don't want to give your stuff away and live a simple life, you'd rather live in a modern Capitalist state and enjoy its pleasures, and so parts of the bible become less meaningful than others.
Sorry bout that,
1. Some things those outside are not allowed to *Understand*.
2. If all Christians were supposed to be poor, think about who would be helping those in great need?
3. Like we are seeing in Haiti right now.
4. The atheists aren't the ones behind all the help flowing into Haiti right now.
5. A very small sliver of any support has come from them.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
:laugh2:
I'm not allowed to 'understand' pull the other one mate,
also i dare say that of the vast amounts of money raised by the public there is no split between religious and none religious, unless you have states that prove otherwise.
chesswarsnow
01-23-2010, 05:25 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. So the simple life for Christians shoulb be living under a bridge?
2. I don't think so.
3. You will find that it's the Christians spending on Haiti, that's a fact.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
LOL
So when i interpret the bible i interpret it wrongly, and you interpret it the right waty...
You also go into some detail on on version because it is the longest, and interpret exact details, er, where not you the one arguing about the "translation" of words? and thus their meaning?
The fact that there are several different accounts of Jesus saying 'give your possessions to the poor' would surly suggest it is both a) important and b) he meant it?
The fact is you don't want to give your stuff away and live a simple life, you'd rather live in a modern Capitalist state and enjoy its pleasures, and so parts of the bible become less meaningful than others.
Sorry bout that,
1. So the simple life for Christians shoulb be living under a bridge?
2. I don't think so.
3. You will find that it's the Christians spending on Haiti, that's a fact.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Why don't you think so?...because you want your material luxuries?...
Ofcourse, you're so right, afterall i didn;t give a donation because i'm not a Christian so i felt no need to help. /sark
chesswarsnow
01-23-2010, 05:51 PM
Sorry bout that,
Why don't you think so?...because you want your material luxuries?...
Ofcourse, you're so right, afterall i didn;t give a donation because i'm not a Christian so i felt no need to help. /sark
1. I don't put much stock in material things.
2. I started out with nothing, and worked hard to get what I have.
3. The things that I own from the fruit of my labors are just things.
4. God showed me that if I apply myself he will reward me.
5. And that having stuff like I do I should be willing to share some of it to those in need, which I agree is good.
6. If I lived up under some bridge, I couldn't help anyone, and would be looking for some one to help me.
7. That's why *God blesses those whom he loves with plenty.
8. Anyways the things we have now are just leased stuff, God owns everything.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
PostmodernProphet
01-23-2010, 06:15 PM
LOL
So when i interpret the bible i interpret it wrongly, and you interpret it the right waty...
You also go into some detail on on version because it is the longest, and interpret exact details, er, where not you the one arguing about the "translation" of words? and thus their meaning?
The fact that there are several different accounts of Jesus saying 'give your possessions to the poor' would surly suggest it is both a) important and b) he meant it?
The fact is you don't want to give your stuff away and live a simple life, you'd rather live in a modern Capitalist state and enjoy its pleasures, and so parts of the bible become less meaningful than others.
all that and not once did you bother to address what I pointed out.....is there a reason for that?.....do you disagree with any of it?.......
if in all of those different accounts he used "give your possessions to the poor" as a statement of the impossibility of attaining perfection, does it somehow change the analysis into a possibility that he desires we attain?....
you accuse me of treating some portions of the Bible as "less meaningful" than others simply because I won't accept the "meaning" that you attribute to it.....yet, you have contributed no effort into explaining WHY you think your "meaning" is more accurate than mine.....
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