View Full Version : Indoctrination in action
Makes you sick.
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Mr. P
02-10-2010, 12:53 PM
Child abuse in the name of GOD! Illegal BTW.
It will be interesting to see if anyone here defends this abusive practice.
chesswarsnow
02-10-2010, 01:01 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. This is a holy roller faith, and they have a right to teach their children the way they want too.
2. What I find strange is a person who makes children a pawn for his heathernistic selfish life, who is just a child himself.
3. And Mr. P. I will defend them their rights to teach their children well, or however they feel is important to them.:coffee:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Mr. P
02-10-2010, 01:19 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. This is a holy roller faith, and they have a right to teach their children the way they want too.
2. What I find strange is a person who makes children a pawn for his heathernistic selfish life, who is just a child himself.
3. And Mr. P. I will defend them their rights to teach their children well, or however they feel is important to them.:coffee:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
You call that teaching, huh? That's pretty sick, man.
We had a so called Minister type here in Atlanta that whipped kids at the Sunday service in front of the congregation. That's teaching? He spent a few yrs in jail for it and all the parents who allowed this lost their kids for a good while.
Society does not look at nor accept "religious extremism" as "teaching" when it comes to children.
Sorry bout that.
Abbey Marie
02-10-2010, 01:52 PM
Yes, it's a little out there, and not the way I would go with my child. But I find it more interesting that you, Noir, do not post, for example, about the horrors done in the name of Islam, to children and women, and men, too. The beatings, the stripping of human rights, the turning into suicide bombers. Jesus camp is the worst religious indoctrination you can find? Sure it is.
So, here's the thing, Noir: I thought that you were trying to find your way in the world, and were seriously questioning God and religion along the way. But now it seems that the only thing that you really want to do is try to taint Christianity.
Good to know. Your credibility is on it's last breath.
HogTrash
02-10-2010, 02:56 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. This is a holy roller faith, and they have a right to teach their children the way they want too.
2. What I find strange is a person who makes children a pawn for his heathernistic selfish life, who is just a child himself.
3. And Mr. P. I will defend them their rights to teach their children well, or however they feel is important to them.:coffee:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexasI have to agree with Chess...People have a right to raise their children to worship as they themselves do.
The rest of us have no right to force them to do otherwise as long as there is no criminal activity or abuse.
I personally don't agree with this form of religion but I do respect the rights of others and expect it in return.
Mr. P
02-10-2010, 03:06 PM
I have to agree with Chess...People have a right to raise their children to worship as they themselves do.
The rest of us have no right to force them to do otherwise as long as there is no criminal activity or abuse.
I personally don't agree with this form of religion but I do respect the rights of others and expect it in return.
Folks have a right to train their dogs too.
Do you approve of beating a dog to train it?
There's a point the line must be drawn between "rights" and "wrongs"..where is it for you?
glockmail
02-10-2010, 03:38 PM
The video is too long to view. Boil your accusation down Noir.
Abbey Marie
02-10-2010, 04:16 PM
The video is too long to view. Boil your accusation down Noir.
I think the implication is that Christianity is the most evil force on earth, and Christians shouldn't be allowed to teach their kids to believe as they do.:rolleyes:
Yes, it's a little out there, and not the way I would go with my child. But I find it more interesting that you, Noir, do not post, for example, about the horrors done in the name of Islam, to children and women, and men, too. The beatings, the stripping of human rights, the turning into suicide bombers. Jesus camp is the worst religious indoctrination you can find? Sure it is.
So, here's the thing, Noir: I thought that you were trying to find your way in the world, and were seriously questioning God and religion along the way. But now it seems that the only thing that you really want to do is try to taint Christianity.
Good to know. Your credibility is on it's last breath.
Whats the point in me posting about the non-sense that is Islam on this site? As far as i am aware there are no Muslims here.
This topic is not itself focussed on Christianity, but on religion itself, and how it indoctrinates those that can not chose. Obviously this is an extreme example, but the same happens on smaller scales everywhere, whether its sending a kid to a faith school or making them go to church classes ect. Indoctrination is taking place
I also will be taking no lectures on 'credibility' from a Pescetarian.
I think the implication is that Christianity is the most evil force on earth, and Christians shouldn't be allowed to teach their kids to believe as they do.:rolleyes:
No, its not geared towards christianity, but religion, however to put it in a context that is easy for you to relate to i have chosen this video.
Do you think that what goes on in that video is acceptable? Cus i sure as hell (if you don't mind the pun) do not.
Abbey Marie
02-10-2010, 06:05 PM
No, its not geared towards christianity, but religion, however to put it in a context that is easy for you to relate to i have chosen this video.
Do you think that what goes on in that video is acceptable? Cus i sure as hell (if you don't mind the pun) do not.
I watched the whole video, God help me, and did not see one iota of camera time spent on anyone but Christians. It is all well and good for you to say it is about more than Christianity, but your video belies that point. Given that irrefutable fact, you simply cannot state otherwise.
As for your assertion that you do not need to mention Islam on this site, that is self-serving. You need to mention it if you intend to show yourself as anything other than Christianphobic. But you don't mention it, for the simple reason that it is not your target; Christianity is. Like it or not, the truth is out.
Finally, I do not appreciate the attempt at painting me as an imbecile who needs you to put this in a "context" that I can understand. That kind of nonsense makes you no better than any troll.
Gaffer
02-10-2010, 06:27 PM
Noir the video covers one small sect of christianity. Your painting with a broad brush here. Much like the propaganda videos of the nazi's in the 30's. If your going to condemn all religions then do so with video's about ALL religions.
I'm as non-religious as you are, but I don't post things like this just to rile people up. It's not even a fair representation of Christianity.
Here's your lumps, take em and go.
I watched the whole video, God help me, and did not see one iota of camera time spent on anyone but Christians. It is all well and good for you to say it is about more than Christianity, but your video belies that point. Given that irrefutable fact, you simply cannot state otherwise.
So what, do you want me to post up some videos of Islamic indoctrination aswell? If so i happily will. This is not about Christianity, but about religion.
As for your assertion that you do not need to mention Islam on this site, that is self-serving. You need to mention it if you intend to show yourself as anything other than Christianphobic. But you don't mention it, for the simple reason that it is not your target; Christianity is. Like it or not, the truth is out.
Erm, no, lol, I am against ALL religions. The fact that this is a pretty Christian site means that there is not much point in me posting comments relating to what Mohammed and the Qur'an say, because you will all agree with me that it is tosh.
Finally, I do not appreciate the attempt at painting me as an imbecile who needs you to put this in a "context" that I can understand. That kind of nonsense makes you no better than any troll.
I'm not trying to make anyone look like imbeciles, i'm just asking questions, and you have not answered the question i asked. You believe it is right that parents can pass on their religion to their children, does that extend to what you saw in that video? (which i personally view as child abuse)
Noir the video covers one small sect of christianity. Your painting with a broad brush here. Much like the propaganda videos of the nazi's in the 30's. If your going to condemn all religions then do so with video's about ALL religions.
I'm as non-religious as you are, but I don't post things like this just to rile people up. It's not even a fair representation of Christianity.
Here's your lumps, take em and go.
Indeedy i understand it is, and have already addressed this in the thread when i said
Obviously this is an extreme example, but the same happens on smaller scales everywhere, whether its sending a kid to a faith school or making them go to church classes ect. Indoctrination is taking place
And i am not 'non-religious' i am 'anti-religoius'
In the name of 'balance' here's some pakistani children undergoing Islamic indoctrination
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Now, rather than trying to saying i'm some sort of Christian persecutor, can we discus how disgusting it is that children are brainwashed by their parents religions, and how it is not the right of the parent to brainwash their child.
Gaffer
02-10-2010, 07:02 PM
And i am not 'non-religious' i am 'anti-religoius'
That"s where we differ. I don't care what others believe as long as it doesn't hurt anyone and they don't attempt to force it on me. You, on the other hand, appear to be trying to indoctrinate others with your anti beliefs. It's like your seeking converts.
That"s where we differ. I don't care what others believe as long as it doesn't hurt anyone and they don't attempt to force it on me. You, on the other hand, appear to be trying to indoctrinate others with your anti beliefs. It's like your seeking converts.
Indeedy, evil prevails when good men do nothing.
Religion has not hurt you? I doubt that.
The fact is that it is forced on people, everyday, they're called children.
Gaffer
02-10-2010, 07:31 PM
Indeedy, evil prevails when good men do nothing.
Religion has not hurt you? I doubt that.
The fact is that it is forced on people, everyday, they're called children.
Yes, and because this country and yours has freedom of religion there's nothing that can be done about it.
Missileman
02-10-2010, 08:04 PM
I'd be curious to know how many of the parents were truly aware of the extent of what they were doing to those kids.
glockmail
02-10-2010, 08:06 PM
No, its not geared towards christianity, but religion, however to put it in a context that is easy for you to relate to i have chosen this video.
Do you think that what goes on in that video is acceptable? Cus i sure as hell (if you don't mind the pun) do not.
h23qtCq2gDY
Gaffer
02-10-2010, 08:07 PM
I'd be curious to know how many of the parents were truly aware of the extent of what they were doing to those kids.
Good point. Some of the parents might be very disturb to see that.
jimnyc
02-10-2010, 08:09 PM
Whats the point in me posting about the non-sense that is Islam on this site? As far as i am aware there are no Muslims here.
Noir, not to ruffle feathers, but you have posted about Muslims here. But... Most of the time it was somewhat in defense of their religion, or as religion as a whole because someone bashed the Muslim faith. It does appear to me that since you get hounded a bit about atheism from the Catholics here that it has worn you out and you have now went on the offensive. I'll cite a few examples of what I speak of below. (For the record, I am Catholic, but I am ever learning and skeptical about everything in this world. As a result, I don't speak much religion and I do my best to avoid putting down others beliefs as it is a highly personal decision).
You recently stated your objection to how parents send their kids to faith schools (I assume that refers to 'ol fashioned Catholic schools as well), but in this post in reply to Muslims, you state:
People must have the free right to chose to live how they want, be that Muslim, Christian, Athiest ect ect, so how would you propose stopping the spread of a faith, without resorting, ironicly, to the same tatics as that of the faith which you despise?
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=399168&postcount=13
Here you defend against painting Muslims with a large brush, somewhat similar to what took place in this thread:
You're judging the many by the actions of the few, i assume you don't jugde all christains by the actions of those who bomb abortion clinics?
As for taking over, it must be any day now then, as we have about 1.6 million Muslims here at the moment,
But what are they waiting for in france (5 to 6 million Muslims)... or Germany (3 million Muslims)?
Srsly dude, chill your baps and stop acting like a twerp.
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=389387&postcount=21
Again, somewhat defending Islam:
Normal everyday Muslim people that you meet in the street or work in your local shop and send their children to the same schools as yours are not radical Islam
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=386217&postcount=26
Another defense of Muslims:
Yes it is, i know plently of Muslims who live as well within our way of life and freedoms as anyone of anyother religion or non-religion
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=385631&postcount=8
There are a few more but you get the point. You seem to have an issue with Catholicism/Christianity, and that could very well be because of those you are debating with on this board, I don't know. But you consistently defend Islam whereas I only see you somewhat bashing those who are Christian/Catholic. If you equally applied your offense/defense to both religions, then I wouldn't say a word, but you seem more bent on defending Islam while constantly bringing down those here who follow Catholicism/Christianity.
Last but not least, this is why I don't debate religion with anyone. Sure, I'll go crazy when condemning the current selection of radical Muslims, but I've also defended Muslims and stated many times over that I have Muslim friends and that not all Muslims are evil.
Don't think I'm joining in and ganging up on you, just pointing out what I see as a double standard.
(my apologies for only being able to address one post at present but i am pressed for time, and will return and address the others when possible)
@Jim,
I have said on a few occasions that i am not against the people, but against the religion.
In cases where idiots try and say that all Muslims are comparable with terrorists or the such then i will obviously rebut that nonsense. In the same way that i do not think all Christians want abortion doctors murdered or anything like that. And indeed i have grown up surrounded my many wonderful people who are Christians, but it is not their religion that has made them wonderful, it is themselves,
As for freedom of religion as it has been brought up in what i have said previously. My views on religion as a whole have been shifting fast in the past few months, i have never believed it has much of a positive effect on society, but i am now starting to believe it has a negative effect. But what that will mean when coupled with basic human rights and freedoms i am not yet sure.
What i am however sure of is that the rights of children are trounced on by religions, in some cases to an extreme degree (like the videos in this thread show) in others to a less extreme, but still extremely important degrees.
But just to make clear again, i hold nothing against or for Christians or Atheists or Muslims or Deists or Buddhists and so forth. There are good people and bad people, regardless of their faith, or lack of.
chloe
02-10-2010, 09:25 PM
(my apologies for only being able to address one post at present but i am pressed for time, and will return and address the others when possible)
@Jim,
I have said on a few occasions that i am not against the people, but against the religion.
In cases where idiots try and say that all Muslims are comparable with terrorists or the such then i will obviously rebut that nonsense. In the same way that i do not think all Christians want abortion doctors murdered or anything like that. And indeed i have grown up surrounded my many wonderful people who are Christians, but it is not their religion that has made them wonderful, it is themselves,
As for freedom of religion as it has been brought up in what i have said previously. My views on religion as a whole have been shifting fast in the past few months, i have never believed it has much of a positive effect on society, but i am now starting to believe it has a negative effect. But what that will mean when coupled with basic human rights and freedoms i am not yet sure.
What i am however sure of is that the rights of children are trounced on by religions, in some cases to an extreme degree (like the videos in this thread show) in others to a less extreme, but still extremely important degrees.
But just to make clear again, i hold nothing against or for Christians or Atheists or Muslims or Deists or Buddhists and so forth. There are good people and bad people, regardless of their faith, or lack of.
I saw Jesus Camp thats an old documentary, the premise behind it was that muslims are raising their children to die for Allah and that christians should be willing to die for Christ Jesus. There are radical groups in anything including non-religion. I am not a member of any religion but I keep hoping one day I will find one that is right for me and rings true to me.
BoogyMan
02-10-2010, 10:44 PM
Here is some indoctrination for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfhHHCXxVe4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAbHttDSRJc
HogTrash
02-11-2010, 12:38 AM
h23qtCq2gDYNo doubt our young Noir, as with many young people, has been strongly influenced by marxist athiest.
This is largely due to the their marxist indoctrination in the universities and even the K-12 public schools.
From the video...
Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum; "If God is not, everything is permitted"
crin63
02-11-2010, 01:07 AM
That video and their speaking in supposed tongues is a ridiculous sham. Its not Christian and has nothing to do with genuine Christianity no matter what they call themselves.
Tongues that were spoken in The Bible were known languages but not previously spoken or known by those men who spoke them on the day of Pentecost. It wasn't just a bunch of jibberish, it wasn't taught and it was only spoken with Jews present.
However wrong they are, its still their children to raise. At least they aren't teaching their kids to blow themselves up in order to get to heaven.
SassyLady
02-11-2010, 02:49 AM
Makes you sick.
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Noir, I went to one of these camps when I was a kid....at the time it seemed like fun and got me away from the family for a week. However, it was this type of extremism that turned me off religion eventually. I am not religious, but I am also not anti-religion. I am anti-extremism ...... of any sort.
Your question is whether it is indoctrination ......... of course it is.
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies
Can you tell me anything a parent teaches their children that isn't some type of indoctrination? For example: Teaching them to say "please" and "thank you" when they want/receive something is indoctrination into a set of values. Making them brush their teeth and take a bath is a form of indoctrination regarding health. Some things are better learned through dogmatic teachings.
And children are not just being indoctrinated by their parents. Watching television is a form of indoctrination.....playing video games ....participating in sports ....listening to music.....teaching children how to care for animals .... teaching language and math.....and the list goes on and on. We cannot raise our children in a void of indoctrination if they want to survive in today's world.
Thankfully, in America, we still have the ability to question the ideas being taught to us, whether it is faith, science, history, et. al. The beauty of being a human being is that at some point in time we reach the age to make our own choices and hopefully some of the indoctrination sticks and some of it diminishes.
Noir, I hope that you know that being anti-religious doesn't mean you have to be an atheist.
HogTrash
02-11-2010, 09:37 AM
Noir, I went to one of these camps when I was a kid....at the time it seemed like fun and got me away from the family for a week. However, it was this type of extremism that turned me off religion eventually. I am not religious, but I am also not anti-religion. I am anti-extremism ...... of any sort.
Your question is whether it is indoctrination ......... of course it is.
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies
Can you tell me anything a parent teaches their children that isn't some type of indoctrination? For example: Teaching them to say "please" and "thank you" when they want/receive something is indoctrination into a set of values. Making them brush their teeth and take a bath is a form of indoctrination regarding health. Some things are better learned through dogmatic teachings.
And children are not just being indoctrinated by their parents. Watching television is a form of indoctrination.....playing video games ....participating in sports ....listening to music.....teaching children how to care for animals .... teaching language and math.....and the list goes on and on. We cannot raise our children in a void of indoctrination if they want to survive in today's world.
Thankfully, in America, we still have the ability to question the ideas being taught to us, whether it is faith, science, history, et. al. The beauty of being a human being is that at some point in time we reach the age to make our own choices and hopefully some of the indoctrination sticks and some of it diminishes.
Noir, I hope that you know that being anti-religious doesn't mean you have to be an atheist.There are those who are simply skeptical about religion and the existance of God and these nonbelievers don't give it much thought.
Then there are the atheist who don't believe and hate the fact that anyone else does and ridicules and tries to convert believers to atheism.
The latter are the ones who have been marxist indoctrinated and are programmed to spread their anti-religious beliefs wherever they will be heard.
Marxism is an ideological plague that spreads and infects those who are weak of mind, especially among the young and the poor of society.
chloe
02-11-2010, 10:02 AM
Noir only hates christians and not really religion. Just the Christian religion.:eek:
Mr. P
02-11-2010, 10:02 AM
There are those who are simply skeptical about religion and the existance of God and these nonbelievers don't give it much thought.
Then there are the atheist who don't believe and hate the fact that anyone else does and ridicules and tries to convert believers to atheism.
The latter are the ones who have been marxist indoctrinated and are programmed to spread their anti-religious beliefs wherever they will be heard.
Marxism is an ideological plague that spreads and infects those who are weak of mind, especially among the young and the poor of society.
Odd I've never seen anyone claiming to be an atheist approach perfect strangers in a bowling ally (as the lil girl in the video did) handing out atheist tracks and claiming there is no GOD.
I think you may have only observed the reverse, HT.
chloe
02-11-2010, 10:06 AM
Odd I've never seen anyone claiming to be an atheist approach perfect strangers in a bowling ally (as the lil girl in the video did) handing out atheist tracks and claiming there is no GOD.
I think you may have only observed the reverse, HT.
To be honest with you, I won't be surprized to see that coming soon. I bet 20 years ago nobody thought there would be a richard dawkins atheist childrens camp either.
glockmail
02-11-2010, 10:20 AM
Odd I've never seen anyone claiming to be an atheist approach perfect strangers in a bowling ally (as the lil girl in the video did) handing out atheist tracks and claiming there is no GOD.
I think you may have only observed the reverse, HT.
That's funny. They have a whole website dedicated to activism, including getting in people's faces: http://www.atheistactivist.org/Actions.html
As well as vandalism: http://www.veoh.com/collection/Police-News/watch/v19541242a78CzN8c#
That's funny. They have a whole website dedicated to activism, including getting in people's faces: http://www.atheistactivist.org/Actions.html
As well as vandalism: http://www.veoh.com/collection/Police-News/watch/v19541242a78CzN8c#
Well that second link you gave is disgusting beyond belief. Hopefully the people that are doing that will be caught and punished.
I do remember hearing a story a while ago about an atheist posters that were stolen, so they replaced them with new posters saying "Thou shalt not steal" made me lawl :laugh2:
glockmail
02-11-2010, 10:48 AM
In spite of what many have been taught Noir, a main focus of Christianity is tolerance. Compare that to the Muslim faith. And while Christians are taught to "shine their light", many atheists are intolerant so feign offense.
HogTrash
02-11-2010, 11:53 AM
Odd I've never seen anyone claiming to be an atheist approach perfect strangers in a bowling ally (as the lil girl in the video did) handing out atheist tracks and claiming there is no GOD.
I think you may have only observed the reverse, HT.The key words you may have overlooked were;
wherever they will be heard
Such as a courtroom, a PTA meeting, a town hall meeting or a political forum.
Although marxists have been known to pass out their literature in the streets, malls, public gathering places, and "bowling allies".
The marxist sympathizer, Lee Harvey Oswald was once arrested while passing out communist literature on the streets of New Orleans.
Noir only hates christians and not really religion. Just the Christian religion.:eek:
Inwhich case you think wrong.
h23qtCq2gDY
I did not watch the whole video, but it seems the main premise of it is 'Atheists do evil aswell' and ofcourse they do. We are in no way special, we are human like everyone else, but i find it very rare to find case of evil committed in the name of Atheism.
For example Stalin is brought up in that video, who murdered about 40-50 million people. But he did not murder them in the name of atheism, he murdered them in the name of his ideal state, a sort of quasi-religion were he was the God. But he did not do what he did because he was an atheist in the same way that Hitler did not do what in did because he was a Catholic. They just both happened to be evil men who had twisted views and the power to act upon them
No doubt our young Noir, as with many young people, has been strongly influenced by marxist athiest.
This is largely due to the their marxist indoctrination in the universities and even the K-12 public schools.
From the video...
LOL,
So when i think that children should not be abused in the way that they clearly are in the name of religion, i am the one that has been 'indoctrinated'? See the irony?
That video and their speaking in supposed tongues is a ridiculous sham. Its not Christian and has nothing to do with genuine Christianity no matter what they call themselves.
Tongues that were spoken in The Bible were known languages but not previously spoken or known by those men who spoke them on the day of Pentecost. It wasn't just a bunch of jibberish, it wasn't taught and it was only spoken with Jews present.
However wrong they are, its still their children to raise. At least they aren't teaching their kids to blow themselves up in order to get to heaven.
So you find that acceptable?
Simply amazing.
Noir, I went to one of these camps when I was a kid....at the time it seemed like fun and got me away from the family for a week. However, it was this type of extremism that turned me off religion eventually. I am not religious, but I am also not anti-religion. I am anti-extremism ...... of any sort.
Your question is whether it is indoctrination ......... of course it is.
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies
Can you tell me anything a parent teaches their children that isn't some type of indoctrination? For example: Teaching them to say "please" and "thank you" when they want/receive something is indoctrination into a set of values. Making them brush their teeth and take a bath is a form of indoctrination regarding health. Some things are better learned through dogmatic teachings.
And children are not just being indoctrinated by their parents. Watching television is a form of indoctrination.....playing video games ....participating in sports ....listening to music.....teaching children how to care for animals .... teaching language and math.....and the list goes on and on. We cannot raise our children in a void of indoctrination if they want to survive in today's world.
Thankfully, in America, we still have the ability to question the ideas being taught to us, whether it is faith, science, history, et. al. The beauty of being a human being is that at some point in time we reach the age to make our own choices and hopefully some of the indoctrination sticks and some of it diminishes.
Noir, I hope that you know that being anti-religious doesn't mean you have to be an atheist.
The difference is that some form of indoctrination are based on fact, others are not. In this case something like brushing your teeth with keep your teeth healthy and reduce the rish of gum disease ect, that is all based on scientific fact and medical evidence.
Religion is not based on facts or evidence, but purly on belief, and when you are brainwashed and forced to believe something that is not fact based as i child i would judge that to be child abuse.
Am i sorry to hear that you went through a similar experience, if i may ask, as i saw it raised earlier in the topic, did the 'teachers' make it clear to your parents what their methods were?
And i understand that i can be both against the institution of religion, but not religion itself, as you are, i however am against both.
There are those who are simply skeptical about religion and the existance of God and these nonbelievers don't give it much thought.
Then there are the atheist who don't believe and hate the fact that anyone else does and ridicules and tries to convert believers to atheism.
The latter are the ones who have been marxist indoctrinated and are programmed to spread their anti-religious beliefs wherever they will be heard.
Marxism is an ideological plague that spreads and infects those who are weak of mind, especially among the young and the poor of society.
I do find it quite funny that you are forever referring to me as a marxist.
In spite of what many have been taught Noir, a main focus of Christianity is tolerance. Compare that to the Muslim faith. And while Christians are taught to "shine their light", many atheists are intolerant so feign offense.
No, the main focus of humanity is tolerance, as can be found in the golden rule. The fact that we have gone through the New Test. and Old Test and scrubbed out the bad bits (by our own judgement) has meant Christianity is more tolerant, but some intolerance's still exist, for example intolerance of homosexuals ect.
I'm sure i could pick 100 bible verses, and as a Christian you would disagree with every one of them, as would i as an atheist, why? Because we are decent people and we know what is right and what is wrong, with or without religion.
HogTrash
02-11-2010, 01:09 PM
LOL,
So when i think that children should not be abused in the way that they clearly are in the name of religion, i am the one that has been 'indoctrinated'? See the irony?So, do you deny that your negativity towards religion was enfluenced by marxist propaganda?
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 01:21 PM
Sorry bout that,
No, the main focus of humanity is tolerance, as can be found in the golden rule. The fact that we have gone through the New Test. and Old Test and scrubbed out the bad bits (by our own judgement) has meant Christianity is more tolerant, but some intolerance's still exist, for example intolerance of homosexuals ect.
I'm sure i could pick 100 bible verses, and as a Christian you would disagree with every one of them, as would i as an atheist, why? Because we are decent people and we know what is right and what is wrong, with or without religion.
1. Pure blarney.
2. Just where do you base your moral back ground from?
3. From some acient atheist text, passed down through the generational curve of some secret society inwhich your gand parents were members?
Regards,
SirJAmesofTexas
So, do you deny that your negativity towards religion was enfluenced by marxist propaganda?
I can tell you for a fact that marxism has nothing to do with it, i hate marxism and find it truly laughable that people put their faith it in, as much as any religion,
Sorry bout that,
1. Pure blarney.
2. Just where do you base your moral back ground from?
3. From some acient atheist text, passed down through the generational curve of some secret society inwhich your gand parents were members?
Regards,
SirJAmesofTexas
Are moral code comes from the selfish gene, it is built into us, just as is the instinct to eat and to laugh and cry.
Tell me, where does your moral code come from?
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 01:51 PM
Sorry bout that,
Are moral code comes from the selfish gene, it is built into us, just as is the instinct to eat and to laugh and cry.
Tell me, where does your moral code come from?
1. If you had morals from being a non believer~atheist, then you would be immoral in all things.
2. The fact you don't marry your sister or mother is directly attributed to the Christain Faith.
3. To state otherwise is unwise.
4. Morals come from religion, and the best morals come from being a Christian.
5. If there were no religion, then anything goes, you could marry the dog just like you've always wanted.:laugh2:
6. You could turn away a hungry person who had nothing, and feel no guilt.
7. You could *lol* at all peoples and Nations when a tragic event took place.
8. You could be in a *Atheist Heaven* on Earth.
9. A world where all you had to say or do, is say, "Its nothing to do with me"
10. Kinda like what we see when something bad happens internationally, and all the muslims turn their backs, you can't expect much from a cult, a step down from being a atheist.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. If you had morals from being a non believer~atheist, then you would be immoral in all things.
2. The fact you don't marry your sister or mother is directly attributed to the Christain Faith.
3. To state otherwise is unwise.
4. Morals come from religion, and the best morals come from being a Christian.
5. If there were no religion, then anything goes, you could marry the dog just like you've always wanted.:laugh2:
6. You could turn away a hungry person who had nothing, and feel no guilt.
7. You could *lol* at all peoples and Nations when a tragic event took place.
8. You could be in a *Atheist Heaven* on Earth.
9. A world where all you had to say or do, is say, "Its nothing to do with me"
10. Kinda like what we see when something bad happens, and al the muslims turn their backs.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Please show me were morals come from religion?
I am always amazed at what religious people say they would do if they had no religion to follow.
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 02:05 PM
Sorry bout that,
Please show me were morals come from religion?
I am always amazed at what religious people say they would do if they had no religion to follow.
1. You mean like book, chapter, and verse?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. You mean like book, chapter, and verse?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Yes i do, and don't start quoting the bible at me, and what Jesus said, he merely adapted the idea of the golden rule which was around thousands of years before he lived.
BoogyMan
02-11-2010, 02:10 PM
Yes i do, and don't start quoting the bible at me, and what Jesus said, he merely adapted the idea of the golden rule which was around thousands of years before he lived.
Why do you even ask these kinds of questions about morality since you have a sycophantically atheist predisposition toward mocking the religious. Either let him answer you or shut up and don't ask. It really is simple. You want some respect, you really should give some first.
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 02:11 PM
Sorry bout that,
Yes i do, and don't start quoting the bible at me, and what Jesus said, he merely adapted the idea of the golden rule which was around thousands of years before he lived.
1. So you believed the blarney about Jesus borrowing from from other teacher?
2. Wow you are gone.
3. I can't help you.:laugh2:
4. So why don't you explain to me how non Christian it is that I just told you that?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Why do you even ask these kinds of questions about morality since you have a sycophantically atheist predisposition toward mocking the religious. Either let him answer you or shut up and don't ask. It really is simple. You want some respect, you really should give some first.
I have to ask the question for him to be able to answer =/
Infact i ask the question so he can answer.
And i am not after your or anyone elses respect, though i will certainly not go out of my way to be dis-respectful. But if you consider my questions dis-respectful then that is a matter for you and not me.
Sorry bout that,
1. So you believed the blarney about Jesus borrowing from from other teacher?
2. Wow you are gone.
3. I can't help you.:laugh2:
4. So why don't you explain to me how non Christian it is that I just told you that?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Jesus said something along the lines of 'do onto others as you would have done to yourself.
Predating him by thousands of years was Maat, the son of Ra, who said "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do"
Now i assume you do not believe that Ra and Maat are real gods, and thus the morals which they preached must surly of came from man, no?
BoogyMan
02-11-2010, 02:21 PM
I have to ask the question for him to be able to answer =/
Infact i ask the question so he can answer.
And i am not after your or anyone elses respect, though i will certainly not go out of my way to be dis-respectful. But if you consider my questions dis-respectful then that is a matter for you and not me.
No, Noir, you constantly make overtly disrespectful claims about the religious that you cannot support and then you have the nerve to ask for religious proof of an assertion while demanding that the Bible not be used to support the point. Maybe you should read your own work before you hit the post button and you wont get your backside rhetorically handed to you for trying to play the catch 22 type card game.
It most certainly is a matter for YOU to fix.
No, Noir, you constantly make overtly disrespectful claims about the religious that you cannot support and then you have the nerve to ask for religious proof of an assertion while demanding that the Bible not be used to support the point. Maybe you should read your own work before you hit the post button and you wont get your backside rhetorically handed to you for trying to play the catch 22 type card game.
It most certainly is a matter for YOU to fix.
Where have a been dis-respectful? It is not dis-respectful to ask questions, we're human, thats what we do.
Morals do not come from the Christian god, or any other god for that matter, but from humans. I merely stopped CWN before he wasted time searching for bible quotes by saying that the quotes he was going to use were just adaptations of ideas that have been around since man himself,
BoogyMan
02-11-2010, 02:39 PM
Where have a been dis-respectful? It is not dis-respectful to ask questions, we're human, thats what we do.
Morals do not come from the Christian god, or any other god for that matter, but from humans. I merely stopped CWN before he wasted time searching for bible quotes by saying that the quotes he was going to use were just adaptations of ideas that have been around since man himself,
What a complete load of piffle.
The assertion you make is based on your belief, however misguided it may be, that man cannot take his moral guidance from God because you believe it to be from elsewhere. You belief does not change the fact that many read the words of God in the Bible and guide their life morally by them. Step away from disrespectful attitude toward the religious for a moment and you might be able to see that. Don't ever tell me that I personally cannot find moral guidance because you don't believe in God, it is insulting and is likely to get your assertion dismissed out of hand for the arrogant mental hooey that it is.
Consider the following as biblical guidance for morality.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
What a complete load of piffle.
The assertion you make is based on your belief, however misguided it may be, that man cannot take his moral guidance from God because you believe it to be from elsewhere. You belief does not change the fact that many read the words of God in the Bible and guide their life morally by them. Step away from disrespectful attitude toward the religious for a moment and you might be able to see that. Don't ever tell me that I personally cannot find moral guidance because you don't believe in God, it is insulting and is likely to get your assertion dismissed out of hand for the arrogant mental hooey that it is.
Consider the following as biblical guidance for morality.
Ofcourse there are moral messages in the bible, as there are in the Qur'an, Hindu teachings, ancient egyptian papyrus and so forth. But the key is where did all of this morality come from? I put it to you that it came from man. Where do you think it came from?
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 02:57 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. I find it very humorous to listen to a atheist expalin how just plain folks came up with all moral codes.
2. I really do think you are beyond help Noir.
3. Cast off like a usless piece of cloth.
4. Man I do not envy you.:eek:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Sorry bout that,
1. I find it very humorous to listen to a atheist expalin how just plain folks came up with all moral codes.
2. I really do think you are beyond help Noir.
3. Cast off like a usless piece of cloth.
4. Man I do not envy you.:eek:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
You find it funny to think a moral code is a basic instinct?
Also, nice to see you didn't try to address the post i made. I'm not asking you to save me, i'm asking you to explain where you think morals come from.
BoogyMan
02-11-2010, 03:07 PM
Ofcourse there are moral messages in the bible, as there are in the Qur'an, Hindu teachings, ancient egyptian papyrus and so forth. But the key is where did all of this morality come from? I put it to you that it came from man. Where do you think it came from?
My morality is wholly guided by the word of the God of Heaven.
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 03:08 PM
Sorry bout that,
You find it funny to think a moral code is a basic instinct?
Also, nice to see you didn't try to address the post i made. I'm not asking you to save me, i'm asking you to explain where you think morals come from.
1. Yes, because why should man self restrict itself?
2. Moral codes comes from outside, and its of God.
3. And its used against mans inner lost self.
4. A selfish person does not need morals, they are a god unto themselves.
5. And they don't need no God telling them how to be or live a moral life.
6. Like what we see with the homo's, they are gods unto themsleves, and they will not live by moral codes.
7. And they want people with moral codes to put a seal of approval on their perversions.
8. Moral people will always refuse.
9. Liberals on the other hand are not moral, they are immoral, and approve all sort of immoral things, including baby killings in the womb.
10. You are a liberal Noir, the shoe fits, and I say, you are a lost hope in every way, you got no chance.
11. The morals you profess are false, you are immoral in everyway.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
My morality is wholly guided by the word of the God of Heaven.
Wholly? Does that incudes the god of the Old testament?
Sorry bout that,
1. Yes, because why should man self restrict itself?
2. Moral codes comes from outside, and its of God.
3. And its used against mans inner lost self.
4. A selfish person does not need morals, they are a god unto themselves.
5. And they don't need no God telling them how to be or live a moral life.
6. Like what we see with the homo's, they are gods unto themsleves, and they will not live by moral codes.
7. And they want people with moral codes to put a seal of approval on their perversions.
8. Moral people will always refuse.
9. Liberals on the other hand are not moral, they are immoral, and approve all sort of immoral things, including baby killings in the womb.
10. You are a liberal Noir, the shoe fits, and I say, you are a lost hope in every way, you got no chance.
11. The morals you profess are false, you are immoral in everyway.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
So what say you to those who dreamt up to stories of Maat who said "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do"
That did not come from the Christian God, and it did not come form Maat (as i would assume you do not believe he exists) so were did such morals come from?
glockmail
02-11-2010, 03:18 PM
No, the main focus of humanity is tolerance, as can be found in the golden rule. The fact that we have gone through the New Test. and Old Test and scrubbed out the bad bits (by our own judgement) has meant Christianity is more tolerant, but some intolerance's still exist, for example intolerance of homosexuals ect.
I'm sure i could pick 100 bible verses, and as a Christian you would disagree with every one of them, as would i as an atheist, why? Because we are decent people and we know what is right and what is wrong, with or without religion.
Is abortion wrong?
Is abortion wrong?
In my opinion? In the vast majority of cases, yes, i am still unsure about cases of rape, and so i would give the women the right to chose in such a situation.
glockmail
02-11-2010, 03:23 PM
In my opinion? In the vast majority of cases, yes, i am still unsure about cases of rape, and so i would give the women the right to chose in such a situation. Then why do atheists support abortion?
Then why do atheists support abortion?
I don't know why 'people' support abortion, personaly i don't think its right, if others have a differing opinion they i will happily debate with them about it, but i would not be so daft as to say something, as your have, like why do atheists support abortion as that is a very broad, and incorrect stereotype.
glockmail
02-11-2010, 03:31 PM
I don't know why 'people' support abortion, personaly i don't think its right, if others have a differing opinion they i will happily debate with them about it, but i would not be so daft as to say something, as your have, like why do atheists support abortion as that is a very broad, and incorrect stereotype. Not only do atheists support abortion in all cases, they want you to volunteer at abortion clinics and have me, via my taxes to the federal government, pay for abortions.
http://www.atheistactivist.org/Clinics.html
Not only do atheists support abortion in all cases, they want you to volunteer at abortion clinics and have me, via my taxes to the federal government, pay for abortions.
http://www.atheistactivist.org/Clinics.html
I don't care what this pressure group wants, or activist group or whatever they are called, they do not represent me, and i'm sure they do not represent allot of atheists so don't be so silly as to say "atheists support abortion in all cases" that is a lie.
Mr. P
02-11-2010, 03:36 PM
Then why do atheists support abortion?
Rights, maybe? Who was it that said in this thread that the camp in the op was the right of the parents to raise their children? Most?
glockmail
02-11-2010, 03:41 PM
Rights, maybe? Who was it that said in this thread that the camp in the op was the right of the parents to raise their children? Most? You'll need to read the thread, since I don't recall.
chloe
02-11-2010, 03:42 PM
You have the right to raise your kids religious or non religious. I am glad Americans have the right. I don't understand such hatred towards religion. This old documentary came out after 9/11 and it was a reaction to fear of other religion fanatics being willing to murder in the name of God. I would rather someone be against fanaticism in any form religious or non religious then have it be put all on religion. There are fanatical atheists too. So why just attack religion?
glockmail
02-11-2010, 03:46 PM
I don't care what this pressure group wants, or activist group or whatever they are called, they do not represent me, and i'm sure they do not represent allot of atheists so don't be so silly as to say "atheists support abortion in all cases" that is a lie.
These atheists certainly support abortion in all cases. That puts the lie to your statement that "[atheists] are decent people and we know what is right and what is wrong". Obviously, many don't.
glockmail
02-11-2010, 03:48 PM
You have the right to raise your kids religious or non religious. I am glad Americans have the right. I don't understand such hatred towards religion. This old documentary came out after 9/11 and it was a reaction to fear of other religion fanatics being willing to murder in the name of God. I would rather someone be against fanaticism in any form religious or non religious then have it be put all on religion. There are fanatical atheists too. So why just attack religion? Atheists attack religion because they are intolerant of anyone who disagrees with their faith.
These atheists certainly support abortion in all cases. That puts the lie to your statement that "[atheists] are decent people and we know what is right and what is wrong". Obviously, many don't.
Indeed they do, that's their choice. Just because we know what is right and wrong does not mean that everything becomes a back and white issue, you still have the same moral problems like abortion, voluntary suicide, drug use, self defence ect ect.
The key is that people are not bad because they are atheists, Christians, Muslims or Druids.
In the same sense they are not good because they are atheists, Christians, Muslims or Druids.
They are good or bad because they are human, and we judge them as humans, and have every right to, because we have an instinctive moral code within us.
chloe
02-11-2010, 03:52 PM
Atheists attack religion because they are intolerant of anyone who disagrees with their faith.
I don't even have a religion and I still don't like all that attacking against religions.
You have the right to raise your kids religious or non religious. I am glad Americans have the right. I don't understand such hatred towards religion. This old documentary came out after 9/11 and it was a reaction to fear of other religion fanatics being willing to murder in the name of God. I would rather someone be against fanaticism in any form religious or non religious then have it be put all on religion. There are fanatical atheists too. So why just attack religion?
But why should you have the right to enforce such beliefs on a child?
As i have said i am not picking on one religion, and have provided a video from pakistani TV which is equally as vile. To think this is about one religion is to miss the point.
And ofcourse i am aposed to any and all fanatics, as i'm sure you are too, but religion is nothing less than blind faith, and it is this blind faith and the belief that 'God is on our side' which must be challenged IMO.
Atheists attack religion because they are intolerant of anyone who disagrees with their faith.
What you call 'an attack' i call asking questions.
glockmail
02-11-2010, 04:00 PM
Indeed they do, that's their choice. Just because we know what is right and wrong does not mean that everything becomes a back and white issue, you still have the same moral problems like abortion, voluntary suicide, drug use, self defence ect ect.
The key is that people are not bad because they are atheists, Christians, Muslims or Druids.
In the same sense they are not good because they are atheists, Christians, Muslims or Druids.
They are good or bad because they are human, and we judge them as humans, and have every right to, because we have an instinctive moral code within us.
These atheists do see it as a black and white issue: they support all abortions. You already stated that abortions are wrong (with a minor caveat), therefore you must now admit that these atheists are wrong, and that they are also intolerant for my beliefs, since they want me to pay for abortions.
Doesn't this make them unethical as well?
glockmail
02-11-2010, 04:04 PM
What you call 'an attack' i call asking questions. Then why do they file suit against municipalities for display of religious symbols displayed in public areas yet paid for with private funds? Why do they sue municipal boards for opening meetings with prayers?
These atheists do see it as a black and white issue: they support all abortions. You already stated that abortions are wrong (with a minor caveat), therefore you must now admit that these atheists are wrong, and that they are also intolerant for my beliefs, since they want me to pay for abortions.
Doesn't this make them unethical as well?
Indeedy in my opinion what they believe about abortion is unethical.
But by the same token i believe that meat is murder, and that meat eaters are unethical.
You are intolerant of my belief that meat is murder just as they are intolerant of your thoughts about abortion. Pot. Kettle. Black?
I have never, and will never argue that all atheists have the same moral code and beliefs or anything like that. Part of being human is having different moral outlooks. What my point has been is that moral code comes from within man, and not from a bible or Qur'an or anything else.
glockmail
02-11-2010, 04:07 PM
...but religion is nothing less than blind faith, and it is this blind faith and the belief that 'God is on our side' which must be challenged IMO.
I would argue, as a scientist, that God's existence can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt using statistical principles. It it the atheist who has blind faith that God does not exist.
Then why do they file suit against municipalities for display of religious symbols displayed in public areas yet paid for with private funds? Why do they sue municipal boards for opening meetings with prayers?
They they they.
I am not a 'they'
I am I,
I can only answer for, and will only answer for myself.
I would argue, as a scientist, that God's existence can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt using statistical principles. It it the atheist who has blind faith that God does not exist.
Please do show me how his existence can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, possibly in another thread if you like, i would love to hear that.
glockmail
02-11-2010, 04:17 PM
Indeedy in my opinion what they believe about abortion is unethical.
But by the same token i believe that meat is murder, and that meat eaters are unethical.
You are intolerant of my belief that meat is murder just as they are intolerant of your thoughts about abortion. Pot. Kettle. Black?
I have never, and will never argue that all atheists have the same moral code and beliefs or anything like that. Part of being human is having different moral outlooks. What my point has been is that moral code comes from within man, and not from a bible or Qur'an or anything else.
We are not arguing your opinion but facts. The facts are that this main stream atheist website shows intolerance and immorality. I challenge you to find a main stream Christian website that displays the same level of intolerance and immorality.
This argument also destroys your insistence that "moral code comes from within man, and not from a bible". Morality goes out the window when authority disappears, not for all, but for many. Much has been written on this fact. If you don't believe me, walk through a shitty part of town after midnight and ask some folks hanging out there.
In the past we've discussed your "meat is murder" view. You were forced to redefine the English language in order to justify your position. Sorry, but it doesn't work the second time around either.
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 04:18 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Every doctor who performs abortions has to be an atheists, and immoral to the core.
2. Its the most dispicable medical procedure known to man.
3. At least I can not think of a worse thing.
4. You have to be one cold hearted bastard to murder an unborn human being.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
glockmail
02-11-2010, 04:35 PM
Please do show me how his existence can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, possibly in another thread if you like, i would love to hear that. I'm fairly certain that we've been through this exercise before, and since I rebuilt my computer and lost all my bookmarks it will be difficult for me to find the link that I've used before. But basically it comes down to statistics and chance.
Atheists believe that the world and all in it happened by chance. That's like turning a corner and discovering a coin that is balanced on its edge; the chances of that happening is small. Then you find dozens more on edge and the chances of that all have to be multiplied together. If you have enough balanced coins the chances of occurrence are impossibly small. Using known unusual properties of chemical, gravitational, mechanical and quantum elements, some have calculated the possibility of the universe occurring by random chance at one in several quadrillion.
In a court of law murderers are routinely convicted on DNA evidence. That is, the chances of a DNA matching theirs being is a particular place are one in several million. I'm sure some lawyer would argue that their client is that one, but a jury, instructed to rule based on "beyond a reasonable doubt", ain't going to buy that theory.
You, as an atheist, choose to be like that stubborn lawyer and insist that this proof is not absolute. You have the luxury of doing so because you don't have to answer to a jury.
You will, however, eventually have to answer to God.
Mr. P
02-11-2010, 05:08 PM
You'll need to read the thread, since I don't recall.
Hear that wizzz it wasn't a white bird..but it still went way above yer head.:laugh2:
BoogyMan
02-11-2010, 05:16 PM
Wholly? Does that incudes the god of the Old testament?
The God of Heaven is the SAME God in the New Testament as the Old Testament. Christianity simply has a different covenant than the Israelites had and we are not under the old law.
Mr. P
02-11-2010, 05:28 PM
What you call 'an attack' i call asking questions.
It's a typical defense of the non-defensible. They have no answers but defend them vigorously. And view every question as an attack instead of what it is, a question.
7 pages here proves my point.
A simple answer to the OP was all that was asked...instead the crew attacks the messenger because he tread on their beliefs?...cool..NOT!
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 05:39 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Just wondering where do you fit in Mr. P.?
2. Are you an atheist?
Regards.
SirJamesofTexas
chloe
02-11-2010, 05:40 PM
But why should you have the right to enforce such beliefs on a child?
As i have said i am not picking on one religion, and have provided a video from pakistani TV which is equally as vile. To think this is about one religion is to miss the point.
And ofcourse i am aposed to any and all fanatics, as i'm sure you are too, but religion is nothing less than blind faith, and it is this blind faith and the belief that 'God is on our side' which must be challenged IMO.
I don't understand why I shouldn't be allowed to teach my beliefs to my own flesh n blood? Why shouldn't I be allowed to?
Mr. P
02-11-2010, 05:46 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Just wondering where do you fit in Mr. P.?
2. Are you an atheist?
Regards.
SirJamesofTexas
Keep wondering.
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 06:00 PM
Sorry bout that,
Keep wondering.
1. Ahhh,.. ok, your secrets safe with me.:coffee:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
BoogyMan
02-11-2010, 07:02 PM
It's a typical defense of the non-defensible. They have no answers but defend them vigorously. And view every question as an attack instead of what it is, a question.
7 pages here proves my point.
A simple answer to the OP was all that was asked...instead the crew attacks the messenger because he tread on their beliefs?...cool..NOT!
How is the position that morality, as practiced by those claiming Christianity, is derived from the book that Christianity is based upon? Why is that so difficult for people to wrap a thought around.
Missileman
02-11-2010, 07:27 PM
How is the position that morality, as practiced by those claiming Christianity, is derived from the book that Christianity is based upon? Why is that so difficult for people to wrap a thought around.
I think the problems stems from those that infer that Christians invented and hold a monopoly on morality.
HogTrash
02-11-2010, 07:47 PM
I can tell you for a fact that marxism has nothing to do with it, i hate marxism and find it truly laughable that people put their faith it in, as much as any religion,I can almost guarantee you have been influenced by marxism without even realizing it.
You show all of the symtoms...You are liberal-You practice PC-You are easily influenced by left wing media-You are a radical atheist.
Do you recall the place and time period of the revelation of your atheist selfawareness?
Consider where you were, what you were doing and who were your closest associations?
You didn't just wake up one morning and say, "today I think I'm going to be an atheist".
Joyful HoneyBee
02-11-2010, 07:47 PM
But why should you have the right to enforce such beliefs on a child?
As i have said i am not picking on one religion, and have provided a video from pakistani TV which is equally as vile. To think this is about one religion is to miss the point.
And ofcourse i am aposed to any and all fanatics, as i'm sure you are too, but religion is nothing less than blind faith, and it is this blind faith and the belief that 'God is on our side' which must be challenged IMO.
Is not your persistent desire to take pot shots at people of faith a form of fanaticism Noir? What is it that you hope to accomplish? Do you seek to single handedly bring about the demise of organized religion by posting on a debate website?
I am a person of faith in God, though I do find many practices of religion to be murky and lurid. However, this has always been the case since the beginning of mankind. With that thought in mind, do you believe you will achieve whatever it is you hope to achieve by posting threads such as this? I just don't get it, I don't comprehend your objective. It is about as convoluted as some of the religious practices you have laid on this table.
Abbey Marie
02-11-2010, 08:27 PM
I don't care what this pressure group wants, or activist group or whatever they are called, they do not represent me, and i'm sure they do not represent allot of atheists so don't be so silly as to say "atheists support abortion in all cases" that is a lie.
How interesting that in your view, the atheist web site is not even representative of a lot of atheists, yet the Jesus camp video is somehow representative of all religions.
Abbey Marie
02-11-2010, 08:36 PM
It's a typical defense of the non-defensible. They have no answers but defend them vigorously. And view every question as an attack instead of what it is, a question.
7 pages here proves my point.
A simple answer to the OP was all that was asked...instead the crew attacks the messenger because he tread on their beliefs?...cool..NOT!
These so-called "attacks" were our questioning the reasons that Noir posted the video, as I am sure you know. No more than you yourself would do had you a strong interest in the subject of Christianity. It would be foolish for a Christian to directly respond to a post that was intended only to taint or ridicule Christianity.
Speaking of interest, it's odd that you would be so concerned about posts in this thread, when you will not discuss the most basic of your beliefs (or non-beliefs as the case may be). Seems that someone who is so unwilling to share at all on the topic wouldn't care very much. :dunno:
HogTrash
02-11-2010, 08:53 PM
How interesting that in your view, the atheist web site is not even representative of a lot of atheists, yet the Jesus camp video is somehow representative of all religions.Noir's "view" may be "interesting" but coming from a liberal, it is definately not unusual.
Mr. P
02-11-2010, 09:03 PM
These so-called "attacks" were our questioning the reasons that Noir posted the video, as I am sure you know. No more than you yourself would do had you a strong interest in the subject of Christianity. It would be foolish for a Christian to directly respond to a post that was intended only to taint or ridicule Christianity.
Speaking of interest, it's odd that you would be so concerned about posts in this thread, when you will not discuss the most basic of your beliefs (or non-beliefs as the case may be). Seems that someone who is so unwilling to share at all on the topic wouldn't care very much. :dunno:
The OP wasn't about religious beliefs IMO..it was about abuse. I think the intent was to show it for what it was and in the name of GOD no less. My personal religious beliefs have nothing to do with the subject posted. It seems I am able to be much more objective than many here are.
glockmail
02-11-2010, 09:41 PM
Hear that wizzz it wasn't a white bird..but it still went way above yer head.:laugh2: That's not wizz, but jizz, in your mouth from your boyfriend. :slap:
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 10:06 PM
Sorry bout that,
I think the problems stems from those that infer that Christians invented and hold a monopoly on morality.
1. Another atheist that has no other purpose but to try and discredit Christianty, and a defender of islam in all its glorious death religion.
2. There is a theme starting here.
3. And its, atheists don't just not want to believe in Jesus Christ, they resent Jesus Christ.
4. I think its because they fear Jesus Christ.
5. These poor souls are not content in being a lost loser without hope in their lives, a begger for salvation without even being aware of it.
6. They have no other purpose in life, but to try to bring shame to Jesus Christ and his Church in whatever denomination it's targeting.
7. It truely is sad and surly to its core.
8. You can't fix surly my friends.:laugh2:
9. While they shore up islam, how its just a small percentage of them causing all the problems, and yet they won't try to shame islam into anything moral and good.
10. There is nothing in it for them, they want to tear down Jesus Christ and him alone.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Mr. P
02-11-2010, 10:06 PM
That's not wizz, but jizz, in your mouth from your boyfriend. :slap:
I love how ya post when ya just ain't got nothin..reflects well on your Christianity too..MORON.
chesswarsnow
02-11-2010, 10:34 PM
Sorry bout that,
That's not wizz, but jizz, in your mouth from your boyfriend. :slap:
1. Glock, I know why you said that, but I think its a tad over the top my friend.
2. Mr. P you too, lets stop with what you were doing as well.
3. Both of you are out of line some what.:poke:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Mr. P
02-12-2010, 12:38 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. Glock, I know why you said that, but I think its a tad over the top my friend.
2. Mr. P you too, lets stop with what you were doing as well.
3. Both of you are out of line some what.:poke:
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Please tell us why. Cuz he's a MORON, maybe? :laugh2:
glockmail
02-12-2010, 08:58 AM
I love how ya post when ya just ain't got nothin..reflects well on your Christianity too..MORON.
Its called "eye for an eye", asshole, Glock-style. :slap:
We are not arguing your opinion but facts. The facts are that this main stream atheist website shows intolerance and immorality. I challenge you to find a main stream Christian website that displays the same level of intolerance and immorality.
This argument also destroys your insistence that "moral code comes from within man, and not from a bible". Morality goes out the window when authority disappears, not for all, but for many. Much has been written on this fact. If you don't believe me, walk through a shitty part of town after midnight and ask some folks hanging out there.
In the past we've discussed your "meat is murder" view. You were forced to redefine the English language in order to justify your position. Sorry, but it doesn't work the second time around either.
There was a Christian bus campaign, by a mainstream Christian group (which was the inspiration for the much more light hearted atheist bus campaign) and what was the Christian message? That non-Christians would "spend all eternity in torment in Hell" and would "burn in a lake of fire" Most tolerant, yes?
I i personally believe that teaching children about heaven and hell is immoral.
Do you have any evidence that moral code comes from religion? As apose to created by man? I point you again to the teachings of Maat. Assuming that you do not believe in the God Maat then it must of been a human who came up with the idea "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another" No?
I merely brought that up to show that difference of opinion on a moral issue is to be expected.
I'm fairly certain that we've been through this exercise before, and since I rebuilt my computer and lost all my bookmarks it will be difficult for me to find the link that I've used before. But basically it comes down to statistics and chance.
Atheists believe that the world and all in it happened by chance. That's like turning a corner and discovering a coin that is balanced on its edge; the chances of that happening is small. Then you find dozens more on edge and the chances of that all have to be multiplied together. If you have enough balanced coins the chances of occurrence are impossibly small. Using known unusual properties of chemical, gravitational, mechanical and quantum elements, some have calculated the possibility of the universe occurring by random chance at one in several quadrillion.
In a court of law murderers are routinely convicted on DNA evidence. That is, the chances of a DNA matching theirs being is a particular place are one in several million. I'm sure some lawyer would argue that their client is that one, but a jury, instructed to rule based on "beyond a reasonable doubt", ain't going to buy that theory.
You, as an atheist, choose to be like that stubborn lawyer and insist that this proof is not absolute. You have the luxury of doing so because you don't have to answer to a jury.
You will, however, eventually have to answer to God.
Thats all very nice, the problem is the alternative, because it is even more improbable still, infact, infinity less likely.
The God of Heaven is the SAME God in the New Testament as the Old Testament. Christianity simply has a different covenant than the Israelites had and we are not under the old law.
The same god? You mean the most unpleasant character in all fiction? "Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” In the words of Dawkins.
I don't understand why I shouldn't be allowed to teach my beliefs to my own flesh n blood? Why shouldn't I be allowed to?
If i may answer with a question, do you think it is right that some one raises their child to be a racist, or sexist or some other undesirable 'ist'?
I can almost guarantee you have been influenced by marxism without even realizing it.
You show all of the symtoms...You are liberal-You practice PC-You are easily influenced by left wing media-You are a radical atheist.
Do you recall the place and time period of the revelation of your atheist selfawareness?
Consider where you were, what you were doing and who were your closest associations?
You didn't just wake up one morning and say, "today I think I'm going to be an atheist".
Self awareness of atheism? I remember not believing in a god when i was in P6&7 (about 10/11 years old) but it was really when i got into debating/public speaking when i was 14/15 that i really started asking questions about things critically, and as far as i see it the more questions are asked of religion the more it is found to be wanting.
Is not your persistent desire to take pot shots at people of faith a form of fanaticism Noir? What is it that you hope to accomplish? Do you seek to single handedly bring about the demise of organized religion by posting on a debate website?
I am a person of faith in God, though I do find many practices of religion to be murky and lurid. However, this has always been the case since the beginning of mankind. With that thought in mind, do you believe you will achieve whatever it is you hope to achieve by posting threads such as this? I just don't get it, I don't comprehend your objective. It is about as convoluted as some of the religious practices you have laid on this table.
Taking pot shots? I'm asking questions.
What is the aim of anyone on this board? It is to exchange ideas and thoughts. I would doubt anyone thinks they are going to single handedly do anything by making posts on a forum.
My objective is merely to discuss.
How interesting that in your view, the atheist web site is not even representative of a lot of atheists, yet the Jesus camp video is somehow representative of all religions.
I never said it was representative of all religions. I put it up to show how religion is used as an excuse for child abuse.
However, all religions have built into them this notion that you must pass on the fairytales of whatever god you follow in order to teach them morality, which you do not.
Its called "eye for an eye", asshole, Glock-style. :slap:
:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
Is this an attempt to sound like a bad-ass in the internet? :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
BoogyMan
02-12-2010, 10:59 AM
The same god? You mean the most unpleasant character in all fiction? "Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” In the words of Dawkins.
Ah, we have a worshiper of Dawkins among us. I should have realized this and clocked that fact when your unearned arrogance and lack of rhetorical ability evidenced itself wrapped in the hypocrisy of the atheist faith.
chloe
02-12-2010, 11:04 AM
If i may answer with a question, do you think it is right that some one raises their child to be a racist, or sexist or some other undesirable 'ist'?
No, I don't think its right to be a racist or sexist.
Mr. P
02-12-2010, 11:05 AM
:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
Is this an attempt to sound like a bad-ass in the internet? :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
Only in his own mind.
It's typical of him to descend to this level when he's running on empty.
Ah, we have a worshiper of Dawkins among us. I should have realized this and clocked that fact when your unearned arrogance and lack of rhetorical ability evidenced itself wrapped in the hypocrisy of the atheist faith.
I am certainly not a worshiper of Dawkins, and i disagree allot with his style, its too aggressive IMO, however, that does not make what he says untrue, just the way in which he presents it.
It is notable that rather than discuss the point you have chosen to attack me as 'arrogant' and so forth, care to discuss the issue and not me?
BoogyMan
02-12-2010, 11:16 AM
I am certainly not a worshiper of Dawkins, and i disagree allot with his style, its too aggressive IMO, however, that does not make what he says untrue, just the way in which he presents it.
It is notable that rather than discuss the point you have chosen to attack me as 'arrogant' and so forth, care to discuss the issue and not me?
If only you were as open minded about Christianity as you are about your faith in the words of Mr. Dawkins a decent discussion could ensue.
Arrogance is easily seen, if you choose to take it as an insult, you might wish to participate in these discussions without its inclusion in your attempts at rhetorical discourse.
No, I don't think its right to be a racist or sexist.
And i don't think its right that children are taught that they must do good will to get into heaven (in christianity) or that the penalty for apostasy is he be murdered (in Islam) and so forth.
Not to mention the fact that religion can be racist and sexist and so forth, again islam is an obvious example. You do not think it is right for a child to be brought up sexist, yet it is the right of the parent to teach their religion, in the case of Islam, sexism is part of the religion.
BoogyMan
02-12-2010, 11:22 AM
And i don't think its right that children are taught that they must do good will to get into heaven (in christianity) or that the penalty for apostasy is he be murdered (in Islam) and so forth.
Not to mention the fact that religion can be racist and sexist and so forth, again islam is an obvious example. You do not think it is right for a child to be brought up sexist, yet it is the right of the parent to teach their religion, in the case of Islam, sexism is part of the religion.
Who are you to claim that the teaching of the Bible that one must do the will of God as described in it's pages is not proper? You don't seem to have any real knowledge of the teaching of the Bible other than stereotypes that are easily shot down with truth.
Once again, that arrogance problem is rearing its ugly head in your attempts to trash religion.
If only you were as open minded about Christianity as you are about your faith in the words of Mr. Dawkins a decent discussion could ensue.
Arrogance is easily seen, if you choose to take it as an insult, you might wish to participate in these discussions without its inclusion in your attempts at rhetorical discourse.
Silly post is silly, i could just as easily say 'If only you were as open minded about the words of Dawkins as you are about your faith in Christianity a decent discussion could ensue.'
But that would be a rather pointless and banal point to make.
and if all the things you can accuse me of, i don't think that not participating in the argument is one of the lol.
Now are you going to continue chatting about me (which i don't really mind to be honest) or would you like to talk about the issue at hand (which will be more stimulating not only for the both of us, but for others reading aswell)
chloe
02-12-2010, 11:24 AM
And i don't think its right that children are taught that they must do good will to get into heaven (in christianity) or that the penalty for apostasy is he be murdered (in Islam) and so forth.
Not to mention the fact that religion can be racist and sexist and so forth, again islam is an obvious example. You do not think it is right for a child to be brought up sexist, yet it is the right of the parent to teach their religion, in the case of Islam, sexism is part of the religion.
Well I didn't bring my kids up in a religion, we don't go to church, and we don't have any church membership. We haven't been baptized. No I don't think anyone should be brought up to hate or hurt people or discriminate, but people should still have the right to do what they want, even if they want to be a blubbering alcoholic or have sex outside of marriage, or not believe in God or believe in God. I don't think people should have to live in my box of beliefs, that is why America allows freedom of expression.
Who are you to claim that the teaching of the Bible that one must do the will of God as described in it's pages is not proper? You don't seem to have any real knowledge of the teaching of the Bible other than stereotypes that are easily shot down with truth.
Once again, that arrogance problem is rearing its ugly head in your attempts to trash religion.
So you do not think that God lets his will be known through the bible? This is a new train of though that i have not heard before, so how do you know his will without using the bible?
Well I didn't bring my kids up in a religion, we don't go to church, and we don't have any church membership. We haven't been baptized. No I don't think anyone should be brought up to hate or hurt people or discriminate, but people should still have the right to do what they want, even if they want to be a blubbering alcoholic or have sex outside of marriage, or not believe in God or believe in God. I don't think people should have to live in my box of beliefs, that is why America allows freedom of expression.
You don't think that people should be brought up to hate other people or to discriminate, and yet that is the basis for all relgion, that the followers of one group are the 'chosen' and so forth.
No only that, but children are made to fear for their very 'soul' with tales of heaven, hell and lakes of fire.
You said in this post "people should still have the right to do what they want" were do you draw the line? At what point of physical or mental abuse does the right of the parent get overridden by the right of the child?
BoogyMan
02-12-2010, 11:32 AM
So you do not think that God lets his will be known through the bible? This is a new train of though that i have not heard before, so how do you know his will without using the bible?
God gave us all that we need in the New Testament to do His will.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I don't have a clue where you got your assertion to the contrary.
God gave us all that we need in the New Testament to do His will.
I don't have a clue where you got your assertion to the contrary.
Ah, quoting Timothy are we?
Let me quote Timothy to you.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
Sounds pretty vile to me.
chloe
02-12-2010, 11:36 AM
You don't think that people should be brought up to hate other people or to discriminate, and yet that is the basis for all relgion, that the followers of one group are the 'chosen' and so forth.
No only that, but children are made to fear for their very 'soul' with tales of heaven, hell and lakes of fire.
You said in this post "people should still have the right to do what they want" were do you draw the line? At what point of physical or mental abuse does the right of the parent get overridden by the right of the child?
It is not up to me to decide that, it is up to the majority of people to vote for there legal rights to have the freedom to decide for themselves. I can only chose to associate with kindrend spirits and avoid vexations of hatefulness. I have experienced mean spirited bigotry or hatred from religious and non-religious people. I don't believe religion is the culprit for hatred or discrimination as much as a human man deciding to make themself more important that Gods love. That is just my opinion. But even if I take religion out of the equation there is still bigotry, homophobia, and racism, sexism. People will teach their children that with or without religion.
BoogyMan
02-12-2010, 11:44 AM
Ah, quoting Timothy are we?
Let me quote Timothy to you.
Sounds pretty vile to me.
Ah the standard bile of the left wing haters of religion. Do you have any understanding of what submission means or do you hang onto the idea that submission means abuse? When you are so caught up in the world and your own personal bias that you cannot, or more likely will not, see that we are talking about submission as to man as the spiritual head it is a shame to you.
God clearly gave man and woman different roles. Your view assumes the man to be a bloodied rapacious ogre unworthy of the spiritual headship of which the Bible speaks of the man having in the home. You clearly have much assumption piled onto your plate and very little fact.
It is not up to me to decide that, it is up to the majority of people to vote for there legal rights to have the freedom to decide for themselves. I can only chose to associate with kindren spirits and avoide vexations of hatefulness. I have experienced mean spirited bigotry or hatred from religious and non-religious people. I don't believe religion is the culprit for hatred or discrimination as much as a human man deciding to make themself more important that Gods love. That is just my opinion. But even if I take religion out of the equation there i still bigotry, homophobia, and racism, sexism. People will teach their children that with or without religion.
Very true, there are wicked people out there, whether they are theist, atheist or anywhere in between. But i have never heard of someone being anti-gay because they are atheist, or that they hate a certain race of people because there is no god. I have i have certainly heard of people that are anti-gay because their God disapproves of it, or that they hate a certain race of people because there is a their God wants them to hate them, and so forth.
When you say that a person should be able to indoctrinate their child you open the door for them to be taught who knows what, in the name of religion.
Now obviously i'm not saying that every religious person raises their children to be racists or homophobic or anything like that, but the main premise of any religion is to do what your God wants you to do.
Ah the standard bile of the left wing haters of religion. Do you have any understanding of what submission means or do you hang onto the idea that submission means abuse? When you are so caught up in the world and your own personal bias that you cannot, or more likely will not, see that we are talking about submission as to man as the spiritual head it is a shame to you.
God clearly gave man and woman different roles. Your view assumes the man to be a bloodied rapacious ogre unworthy of the spiritual headship of which the Bible speaks of the man having in the home. You clearly have much assumption piled onto your plate and very little fact.
Lol, you know of the 2 or 3 answers i was expecting that was not one of them.
So tell me, what does the word submission mean?
and what about the other words? Like 'teach' and 'silent' I assume they must have different meanings too?
Abbey Marie
02-12-2010, 12:01 PM
There was a Christian bus campaign, by a mainstream Christian group (which was the inspiration for the much more light hearted atheist bus campaign) and what was the Christian message? That non-Christians would "spend all eternity in torment in Hell" and would "burn in a lake of fire" Most tolerant, yes?
I i personally believe that teaching children about heaven and hell is immoral.
Do you have any evidence that moral code comes from religion? As apose to created by man? I point you again to the teachings of Maat. Assuming that you do not believe in the God Maat then it must of been a human who came up with the idea "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another" No?
I merely brought that up to show that difference of opinion on a moral issue is to be expected.
Unless the financiers of that campaign have the desire and the power to compel others into doing or abstaining from certain behaviors, how is this intolerant? What exactly does it mean to not tolerate something unless you have some power over the person's behavior? If a dad says to his child, "I will not tolerate that from you", the child knows that if he continues the behavior, there will be some bad consequence. That is intolerance that actually means something. How can this Christian group do anything to anyone? Are they in power in that country? Can they arrest people for not being Christian these days? (Btw, this is exactly what your Islamic friends do)
In fact, this campaign sounds like no more than an expression of a strongly held belief, and one whose goal is to save people from the suffering that is hell. And non-believers should have nothing to fear at all, since they don't believe in hell.
BoogyMan
02-12-2010, 12:04 PM
Lol, you know of the 2 or 3 answers i was expecting that was not one of them.
So tell me, what does the word submission mean?
and what about the other words? Like 'teach' and 'silent' I assume they must have different meanings too?
It is not what you expected because you don't seem to have anything in your bag of tricks other than stereotypes.
What part of the man having a different role than the woman do you not understand? The man is to take the leadership roles in Christs church, not the woman. This does not demean women in any way, they have a different role as given by God.
Submission is to follow the headship of another. The other is to be the godly man in the home and BOTH man and woman are to be in submission to God.
Get your facts straight before you start trashing something you obviously have grievously little knowledge of.
Unless the financiers of that campaign have the desire and the power to compel others into doing or abstaining from certain behaviors, how is this intolerant? What exactly does it mean to not tolerate something unless you have some power over the person's behavior? If a dad says to his child, "I will not tolerate that from you", the child knows that if he continues the behavior, there will be some bad consequence. That is intolerance that actually means something. How can this Christian group do anything to anyone? Are they in power in that country? Can they arrest people for not being Christian these days? (Btw, this is exactly what your Islamic friends do)
In fact, this campaign sounds like no more than an expression of a strongly held belief, and one whose goal is to save people from the suffering that is hell. And non-believers should have nothing to fear at all, since they don't believe in hell.
Take it up with glock, we was the one that started using the word intolerant, i merely kept the idea going in order to relate to his post.
Indeedy, a strongly held belief that was fine for them to advertise, and no one took any notice, but as soon as the atheist campain started (which was much more light hearted) all hell broke lose, so to speak. Suddenly atheists were being visibly intolerant, arrogant and dis-respectful lol.
and just as a side note, there was a new counter christian bus campain, unvailed after the atheist one, and looking at the following pics, don't you think it quiet amazing that it is atheists who are branded arrogant and so forth?
Atheist banner
http://maxdunbar.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/atheist-bus.jpg
Christian banner
http://godknowswhat.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/christian-bus-ads-0011.jpg
It is not what you expected because you don't seem to have anything in your bag of tricks other than stereotypes.
What part of the man having a different role than the woman do you not understand? The man is to take the leadership roles in Christs church, not the woman. This does not demean women in any way, they have a different role as given by God.
Submission is to follow the headship of another. The other is to be the godly man in the home and BOTH man and woman are to be in submission to God.
Get your facts straight before you start trashing something you obviously have grievously little knowledge of.
So can a women be the head of the church?
chloe
02-12-2010, 12:22 PM
Very true, there are wicked people out there, whether they are theist, atheist or anywhere in between. But i have never heard of someone being anti-gay because they are atheist, or that they hate a certain race of people because there is no god. I have i have certainly heard of people that are anti-gay because their God disapproves of it, or that they hate a certain race of people because there is a their God wants them to hate them, and so forth.
When you say that a person should be able to indoctrinate their child you open the door for them to be taught who knows what, in the name of religion.
Now obviously i'm not saying that every religious person raises their children to be racists or homophobic or anything like that, but the main premise of any religion is to do what your God wants you to do.
Well I have met an atheist who is against gay people. Atheist means not believing in Gods/God or religion, there are plenty of people who have that stance and still teach that they are superior to others because of their genes. People indoctrinate based on their belief whether its a belief you agree with or not. If someone doesn't believe in religion but they believe in superior race, or genes, or they believe that physiologically one sex is better or that homosexuality is not normal they will indocrinate their kids that way.
People do that with their political beliefs too. Children grow up and they decide to believe what they were taught or reject it. In radical religions you have fanaticism and terrorism and you have that with hate groups that aren't religious to. That is why there are laws to protect people who might be attacked or hurt by those beliefs from those kind of groups.
glockmail
02-12-2010, 12:48 PM
:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
Is this an attempt to sound like a bad-ass in the internet? :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: Why do I intimidate you?
glockmail
02-12-2010, 12:48 PM
Thats all very nice, the problem is the alternative, because it is even more improbable still, infact, infinity less likely. How so?
Well I have met an atheist who is against gay people. Atheist means not believing in Gods/God or religion, there are plenty of people who have that stance and still teach that they are superior to others because of their genes. People indoctrinate based on their belief whether its a belief you agree with or not. If someone doesn't believe in religion but they believe in superior race, or genes, or they believe that physiologically one sex is better or that homosexuality is not normal they will indocrinate their kids that way.
People do that with their political beliefs too. Children grow up and they decide to believe what they were taught or reject it. In radical religions you have fanaticism and terrorism and you have that with hate groups that aren't religious to. That is why there are laws to protect people who might be attacked or hurt by those beliefs from those kind of groups.
Indeedy, i'm sure there are many atheist racists, but they are not racist because of their religion, as some religious people are. You do not think it is acceptable to pass on racism, but is it okay to pass on racism through religion? and if not then at what point do you stop?
Why do I intimidate you?
Naw, i find it quite sweet ^_^
How so?
Because your argument in that is based upon the fact that such an incredibly unlikely event could not of happened by chance. It must have been done by a god.
And yet the very existence of such a god is less likely still, just you try and prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that the coins were put their by a god.
Just as a wee note, i am heading off tonight for a few days and so will not be able to reply until Sunday night / Monday morning
See ya'll then, don't miss me too much :p
chloe
02-12-2010, 01:22 PM
Indeedy, i'm sure there are many atheist racists, but they are not racist because of their religion, as some religious people are. You do not think it is acceptable to pass on racism, but is it okay to pass on racism through religion? and if not then at what point do you stop?
Noir, it is not really accurate to say that atheists do not indcotrinate. Any atheist who has decided scientifically speaking that Genetics not god or religion is all they need as Proof that they are superior to another and that furthermore teaches their children to hate based on an superior/inferior belief is indoctrinating.
In fact an atheist who teaches their child to make fun of religious people or mock, or disrepect them because the atheist doesnt believe in religion or god, is indoctrinating the child to act as if they are superior and another inferior all based on their firm belief in no God no religion. That is a a subtle form of discrimination and if it was taken to a fanatical lets say richard dawkins proportion, well then it could very well breed and indoctrinate hatred and intolerance for religions and for people of faith.
SassyLady
02-12-2010, 02:42 PM
If i may answer with a question, do you think it is right that some one raises their child to be a racist, or sexist or some other undesirable 'ist'?
Noir --- answer me this. If the parents are racist, sexist or some other 'ist' and you feel it is wrong for them to raise their children within their own belief system...........then who do you feel should be doing the raising and under what belief system??? The government?......in orphanages perhaps? Or are you advocating that the government set up interactive cameras in every home and direct the parents on every aspect of their teachings? Or are you advocating that all churches, of any religion be closed to anyone under 18?
Instead of demonizing what people of faith teach their children, give us solutions that would fit into your world of children's rights without taking away freedoms.
SassyLady
02-12-2010, 02:45 PM
The same god? You mean the most unpleasant character in all fiction? "Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” In the words of Dawkins.
Noir - how can you make such a broadly incorrect statement..........in ALL fiction? Perhaps you should be reading non-fiction and you'll find that God is referred to as anything but what your friend Dawkins is telling you. At least he classified it as fiction.
SassyLady
02-12-2010, 02:47 PM
That's not wizz, but jizz, in your mouth from your boyfriend. :slap:
This is disgusting and uncalled for ..... especially when you have ladies in here participating in the discussion.
SassyLady
02-12-2010, 02:51 PM
Well I didn't bring my kids up in a religion, we don't go to church, and we don't have any church membership. We haven't been baptized. No I don't think anyone should be brought up to hate or hurt people or discriminate, but people should still have the right to do what they want, even if they want to be a blubbering alcoholic or have sex outside of marriage, or not believe in God or believe in God. I don't think people should have to live in my box of beliefs, that is why America allows freedom of expression.
:clap::clap::clap:
SassyLady
02-12-2010, 03:15 PM
Noir, it is not really accurate to say that atheists do not indcotrinate. Any atheist who has decided scientifically speaking that Genetics not god or religion is all they need as Proof that they are superior to another and that furthermore teaches their children to hate based on an superior/inferior belief is indoctrinating.
In fact an atheist who teaches their child to make fun of religious people or mock, or disrepect them because the atheist doesnt believe in religion or god, is indoctrinating the child to act as if they are superior and another inferior all based on their firm belief in no God no religion. That is a a subtle form of discrimination and if it was taken to a fanatical lets say richard dawkins proportion, well then it could very well breed and indoctrinate hatred and intolerance for religions and for people of faith.
Good post ... must spread the rep around!!! :clap::clap:
BoogyMan
02-12-2010, 04:11 PM
So can a women be the head of the church?
Not according to the text of the New Testament.
glockmail
02-12-2010, 05:06 PM
This is disgusting and uncalled for ..... especially when you have ladies in here participating in the discussion. Reading my posts is optional.
glockmail
02-12-2010, 05:10 PM
Because your argument in that is based upon the fact that such an incredibly unlikely event could not of happened by chance. It must have been done by a god.
And yet the very existence of such a god is less likely still, just you try and prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that the coins were put their by a god. Circular reasoning. :lame2:
Missileman
02-12-2010, 06:26 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Another atheist that has no other purpose but to try and discredit Christianty, and a defender of islam in all its glorious death religion.
2. There is a theme starting here.
3. And its, atheists don't just not want to believe in Jesus Christ, they resent Jesus Christ.
4. I think its because they fear Jesus Christ.
5. These poor souls are not content in being a lost loser without hope in their lives, a begger for salvation without even being aware of it.
6. They have no other purpose in life, but to try to bring shame to Jesus Christ and his Church in whatever denomination it's targeting.
7. It truely is sad and surly to its core.
8. You can't fix surly my friends.:laugh2:
9. While they shore up islam, how its just a small percentage of them causing all the problems, and yet they won't try to shame islam into anything moral and good.
10. There is nothing in it for them, they want to tear down Jesus Christ and him alone.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Yo! RETARD! Find a post where I've defended Islam. While you're at it, point to the part of this post :
I think the problems stems from those that infer that Christians invented and hold a monopoly on morality.
that is derogatory of Christianity or resentful towards JC.
SassyLady
02-12-2010, 08:07 PM
Reading my posts is optional.
You are correct - however, I usually like reading your posts. This one just kinda jumped out there and surprised me. Perhaps I just haven't read enough of your posts to understand this is your style. I will be more cautious in the future.
crin63
02-13-2010, 11:12 AM
Personally, I see atheists as a bunch of cry-baby, spoiled, rebellious children who just want to deny the beliefs of their forefathers so they can do whatever they want without any guilt.
Any resemblances to Liberals was completely unintentional, mea culpa. :coffee:
There first had to be Theists in order for there to be A-Theists.
Missileman
02-13-2010, 11:35 AM
Personally, I see atheists as a bunch of cry-baby, spoiled, rebellious children who just want to deny the beliefs of their forefathers so they can do whatever they want without any guilt.
Of course! We also deny the world is flat just to be a pain in the ass.
chesswarsnow
02-13-2010, 12:10 PM
Sorry bout that,
Of course! We also deny the world is flat just to be a pain in the ass.
1. Your capability to cause pain is over rated.
2. You only hurt yourself.
3. Your outspokeness towards the only real God, Jesus Christ only solidifies his place as God.
4. I see you fear.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Missileman
02-13-2010, 12:26 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. Your capability to cause pain is over rated.
2. You only hurt yourself.
3. Your outspokeness towards the only real God, Jesus Christ only solidifies his place as God.
4. I see you fear.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
And I see you continue to bring nothing but baseless nonsense to the table.
Mr. P
02-13-2010, 12:44 PM
Everyone is "born" an atheist. Prove me wrong. That in itself speaks volumes.
Abbey Marie
02-13-2010, 01:47 PM
Everyone is "born" an atheist. Prove me wrong. That in itself speaks volumes.
Everyone is also born unable to wipe their own butt. Only proves that we are too young to know anything. We are works in progress in all areas, including the ability to think and reason and worship.
glockmail
02-13-2010, 04:00 PM
Everyone is "born" an atheist. Prove me wrong. That in itself speaks volumes. You made the claim; prove yourself right. :lame2:
Mr. P
02-13-2010, 07:10 PM
You made the claim; prove yourself right. :lame2:
I believe the challenge was "Prove me wrong".
A lil reading comprehension problem there, Glock?
ABBY..Personally, I'd never equate teaching wiping ones ass with teaching religion..But to each his own.
Abbey Marie
02-13-2010, 07:12 PM
I believe the challenge was "Prove me wrong".
A lil reading comprehension problem there, Glock?
ABBY..Personally, I'd never equate teaching wiping ones ass with teaching religion..But to each his own.
Equating and analogizing are two different things.
BoogyMan
02-13-2010, 08:58 PM
I believe the challenge was "Prove me wrong".
A lil reading comprehension problem there, Glock?
ABBY..Personally, I'd never equate teaching wiping ones ass with teaching religion..But to each his own.
I would have to agree with Glock that your having made a statement does not mean it is fact and must be proven wrong without your having actually proved your point.
I could claim that there are aliens at area 51 and demand it be held up as fact until you can prove it wrong, but that is just as foolish a premise as the original one that you tried to set up.
DragonStryk72
02-13-2010, 09:46 PM
Whats the point in me posting about the non-sense that is Islam on this site? As far as i am aware there are no Muslims here.
This topic is not itself focussed on Christianity, but on religion itself, and how it indoctrinates those that can not chose. Obviously this is an extreme example, but the same happens on smaller scales everywhere, whether its sending a kid to a faith school or making them go to church classes ect. Indoctrination is taking place
I also will be taking no lectures on 'credibility' from a Pescetarian.
Just as you were indoctrinated to be athiest, as you claimed your parents were. Again, and again, and again with this Noir. You are more obsessed with Christianity than any person on this site.
Kathianne
02-13-2010, 10:09 PM
Just as you were indoctrinated to be athiest, as you claimed your parents were. Again, and again, and again with this Noir. You are more obsessed with Christianity than any person on this site.
Not to mention his nearly daily preachings here and probably lots of other places. He's like the atheistic version of the Great Awakening.
Joyful HoneyBee
02-14-2010, 12:19 AM
If i may answer with a question, do you think it is right that some one raises their child to be a racist, or sexist or some other undesirable 'ist'?
Such as atheist perchance? Like it or not Noir, people are going to raise their child as they see fit. I certainly don't agree with much of the parenting I see going on....I haven't even been thrilled with every single aspect of my own parenting skills. However, even with mistakes made, children brought up to feel cared for generally turn out reasonably well. But, do you truly expect for society to reach into every household and manipulate every aspect of how every parent raises every child? Would that be reasonable and acceptable?
Taking pot shots? I'm asking questions.
What is the aim of anyone on this board? It is to exchange ideas and thoughts. I would doubt anyone thinks they are going to single handedly do anything by making posts on a forum.
My objective is merely to discuss.
If this had been the first post where I've seen you jab at Christianity I would not have pointed out not perception that you are taking pot shots. I have posted film footage of children being taught much more disturbing things, such as being suicide martyrs for Islam and didn't see a response from you about that. Footage depicting veiled women being publicly whipped by men is out there too, but you're not posting that. So, here ya go...how's this for 'child abuse'?
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No, Noir, the drum you persistently beat is that of Anti-Christianity, and it has not gone unnoticed. Why not just leave it alone if you don't like it? :poke:
chesswarsnow
02-14-2010, 12:39 AM
Sorry bout that,
1. Here's how I read what Noirs perfect world entails.
2. No religion to be taught any child.
3. Until they reach maturity, let's say 19.
4. About the time they enter college.
5. Then the atheist professors get a crack at their heads full of mush first.
6. And then and only then afterwards, they get to take a Bible class.
7. If it's sticks at that point, then it's okay by him.
8. This way everyone has an equal opertunity of being *F*ed up for life just like he is.
9. He's so lonely being the only atheist he knows.
10. Misery loves company, and it's true you waste much effort casting pearls to swine.
11. No offense Noir, it's just something Jesus said, and I'm sure in your whole life you have been under the weight of being told Jesus is out to get you, maybe he is, you might want to ask why?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Luna Tick
02-14-2010, 02:43 AM
Crazy people.
PostmodernProphet
02-14-2010, 09:59 AM
but they are not racist because of their religion, as some religious people are.
can you document for me who these people are who are racist because of their religion?....
chloe
02-14-2010, 03:07 PM
can you document for me who these people are who are racist because of their religion?....
Mormons had a ban on allowing black people to join their church, but it was lifted in 1950's. I am still unsure whether black people are allowed to hold the priesthood. The reason was because the mormons used to believe that black people held the mark of cain, or at least thats how it was explained to me.
HogTrash
02-14-2010, 03:26 PM
Mormons had a ban on allowing black people to join their church, but it was lifted in 1950's. I am still unsure whether black people are allowed to hold the priesthood. The reason was because the mormons used to believe that black people held the mark of cain, or at least thats how it was explained to me.The simple truth is, the majority of negroes are uncivilized savages and untill the inception of political correctness in the late 1960's it was perfectly normal and acceptable for people to want to avoid or restrict contact with them.
Gaffer
02-14-2010, 06:36 PM
The simple truth is, the majority of negroes are uncivilized savages and untill the inception of political correctness in the late 1960's it was perfectly normal and acceptable for people to want to avoid or restrict contact with them.
What makes a person a savage. His skin color or a lack of knowledge? Historically the blacks have been kept down in this and other countries. From the Civil War to the 1960's blacks were denied education and even respect. Then, just like at the end of the Civil War they were suddenly thrust into main stream of society. But there was no educational base to build on. They were given welfare and affirmative action to get them into the work force. All sorts of government gimme programs to assuage white guilt. So you get stupid, ignorant people placed in positions of authority and in the entertainment world positions of stardom. Why do so many of them excel in sports? Because it doesn't take a lot of brain power. Just athletic ability. Ignorance is part of the black culture, and it's perpetrated in today's society by the corporations and ignorant black leaders. Plus the fact racism is a big money maker in the black community. Again fed with ignorance. It's not skin color that makes a savage it's ignorance.
chesswarsnow
02-14-2010, 06:51 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. And we all know, you can't fix stupid!
2. Thou some have real smarts, that doesn't happen often.
3. I think they lack good morals, how do we help them morally?
4. I myself, think a savage ideal, can be changed, but how can they be reached?
5. Matin Luther King was a great man, and preacher, where are the good teachers?
6. We all know how Obama was taught by a savage teacher.
7. There's plenty of things going down hill for the black race, who will guide them away from the pitfalls?
8. Black people suffer from lack of knowledge, I feel bad for them, but I don't feel responcible for them.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Kathianne
02-14-2010, 07:03 PM
Sorry bout that,
1. And we all know, you can't fix stupid!
2. Thou some have real smarts, that doesn't happen often.
3. I think they lack good morals, how do we help them morally?
4. I myself, think a savage ideal, can be changed, but how can they be reached?
5. Matin Luther King was a great man, and preacher, where are the good teachers?
6. We all know how Obama was taught by a savage teacher.
7. There's plenty of things going down hill for the black race, who will guide them away from the pitfalls?
8. Black people suffer from lack of knowledge, I feel bad for them, but I don't feel responcible for them.
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Funny, before the 'War on Poverty' and the destruction of the black family, their divorce rates were lower than whites. Family and church were legacies of what had gone before. Then came the 'War' and special treatments, did more to destroy black families and increase out of wedlock children than it did help prevent or cure poverty.
Abbey Marie
02-14-2010, 07:09 PM
Funny, before the 'War on Poverty' and the destruction of the black family, their divorce rates were lower than whites. Family and church were legacies of what had gone before. Then came the 'War' and special treatments, did more to destroy black families and increase out of wedlock children than it did help prevent or cure poverty.
Good point. And besides fewer single moms from divorce, there were also many fewer due to never being married in the first place and having children.
HogTrash
02-14-2010, 10:45 PM
What makes a person a savage. His skin color or a lack of knowledge? Historically the blacks have been kept down in this and other countries. From the Civil War to the 1960's blacks were denied education and even respect. Then, just like at the end of the Civil War they were suddenly thrust into main stream of society. But there was no educational base to build on. They were given welfare and affirmative action to get them into the work force. All sorts of government gimme programs to assuage white guilt. So you get stupid, ignorant people placed in positions of authority and in the entertainment world positions of stardom. Why do so many of them excel in sports? Because it doesn't take a lot of brain power. Just athletic ability. Ignorance is part of the black culture, and it's perpetrated in today's society by the corporations and ignorant black leaders. Plus the fact racism is a big money maker in the black community. Again fed with ignorance. It's not skin color that makes a savage it's ignorance.Skin color is simply a racial characteristic and has absolutely nothing to do with the nature of the beast.
Being an uncivilized savage has more to do with being geneticly less intelligent than any physical characteristic.
Maybe the first people who ventured out of africa had to evolve faster to adapt and survive in new lands and conditions.
Or possibly the subsaharan africans were simply the last of the human apes to climb down from the trees and walk upright.
Maybe all they need is a little more time to catch up with the rest of humanity, but untill then lets stop kidding ourselves and face reality.
HogTrash
02-14-2010, 11:20 PM
Self awareness of atheism? I remember not believing in a god when i was in P6&7 (about 10/11 years old) but it was really when i got into debating/public speaking when i was 14/15 that i really started asking questions about things critically, and as far as i see it the more questions are asked of religion the more it is found to be wanting.All of this is probably true but you're leaving something out.....The catalyst.
It is possible you don't even realize it but if you think hard enough, you'll remember.
Mr. P
02-15-2010, 12:17 AM
All of this is probably true but you're leaving something out.....The catalyst.
It is possible you don't even realize it but if you think hard enough, you'll remember.
So if all this is true, what difference does the catalyst make? Truth is truth, no?
Mr. P
02-15-2010, 12:43 AM
I would have to agree with Glock that your having made a statement does not mean it is fact and must be proven wrong without your having actually proved your point.
I could claim that there are aliens at area 51 and demand it be held up as fact until you can prove it wrong, but that is just as foolish a premise as the original one that you tried to set up.
So then, I would expect you would apply the same burden of "Proof" on one who would claim that GOD, their GOD, regardless of their religion is the only GOD. Right?
PostmodernProphet
02-15-2010, 08:14 AM
So then, I would expect you would apply the same burden of "Proof" on one who would claim that GOD, their GOD, regardless of their religion is the only GOD. Right?
I can acknowledge that some believe there are aliens in Area 51, or that some believe blacks are inferior, or that some believe in a God who is the only true God without expecting proofs of their belief....
I can also acknowledge that some believe there is no God without expecting proofs....
where the problem arises is when someone claims their position is a logical conclusion rather than a belief.......then I expect them to be able to provide an explanation of how they legitimately came to that "logical conclusion".......
PostmodernProphet
02-15-2010, 08:18 AM
Everyone is "born" an atheist. Prove me wrong. That in itself speaks volumes.
simple enough......in order to be an atheist one needs to make, if the atheist is to be believed, a logical conclusion, or, if the theist is believed, a faith choice......in neither situation is an infant capable of acting......consider yourself proven wrong.....
unless of course your definition of "atheist" is "unaware of the world around them" (not an illogical possibility).....in that case, we may all be born "atheists".........
crin63
02-15-2010, 10:48 AM
Of course! We also deny the world is flat just to be a pain in the ass.
The Bible clearly stated the earth to be round many years before Christ. Circles are round BTW.
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Noir, it is not really accurate to say that atheists do not indcotrinate. Any atheist who has decided scientifically speaking that Genetics not god or religion is all they need as Proof that they are superior to another and that furthermore teaches their children to hate based on an superior/inferior belief is indoctrinating.
In fact an atheist who teaches their child to make fun of religious people or mock, or disrepect them because the atheist doesnt believe in religion or god, is indoctrinating the child to act as if they are superior and another inferior all based on their firm belief in no God no religion. That is a a subtle form of discrimination and if it was taken to a fanatical lets say richard dawkins proportion, well then it could very well breed and indoctrinate hatred and intolerance for religions and for people of faith.
We have i said that atheists do not indoctrinate? I'm sure that quiet a few do, which is wrong IMO.
and i agree with the second paragraph, that would be most undesirable. But while some atheists may chose to live that way, all theists have too, as by definition, they are the 'chosen'.
Noir --- answer me this. If the parents are racist, sexist or some other 'ist' and you feel it is wrong for them to raise their children within their own belief system...........then who do you feel should be doing the raising and under what belief system??? The government?......in orphanages perhaps? Or are you advocating that the government set up interactive cameras in every home and direct the parents on every aspect of their teachings? Or are you advocating that all churches, of any religion be closed to anyone under 18?
Instead of demonizing what people of faith teach their children, give us solutions that would fit into your world of children's rights without taking away freedoms.
Good heavens no, there would be nothing worse that what you have described as a possible government/state system.
In my 'perfect world' if you will, children are taught to be moral through the golden rule, teachings of Christ/Buddha ect (which are just extensions of the golden rule) and all of the mysticism (virgin births, raising the dead, going to heaven ect in the case of the Christian religion) are left for the child to make sense of themselves when they are older.
Ofcourse the only thing the state can do in this case is not have mysticism taught in schools, the rest has to come from home, now while i know that such a world will never come into being, it does not make the idea of it any less desirable.
Noir - how can you make such a broadly incorrect statement..........in ALL fiction? Perhaps you should be reading non-fiction and you'll find that God is referred to as anything but what your friend Dawkins is telling you. At least he classified it as fiction.
My apologies, in my haste to post the reply i put the quotation marks in the wrong place, it should have read the following
"The most unpleasant character in all fiction? Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” In the words of Dawkins.
HogTrash
02-15-2010, 11:17 AM
So if all this is true, what difference does the catalyst make? Truth is truth, no?Maybe so, but if the catalyst is a person or group that is using propaganda to influence the opinions and beliefs of others to further their ideology it should make people question what it is that influenced them.
I would guess that 90% of all people in the 20th and 21st century who take up the cause of atheism do so because of a marxist influence, especially among the young people and especially in the universities.
I do not practice any organized religion including Christianity but I will side with them against any and all marxist or socialist...IMO the Christians are the most caring compassionate and charitable people on earth.
And the marxist are the lowest form of life that ever crawled out from under a rock, lower than even the lowly liberal pawns who do their dirty work...The rules of war says "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
Not according to the text of the New Testament.
So you happily concede the New Testament perches sexism?
Circular reasoning. :lame2:
No Sir, you are the one with the lame argument. For it tries to reason a god through probability, in your case using the metaphor of coins. Now tell me, what could possibly be more probable that the idea of a being that lives outside of time and space, is all powerful, all knowing and eternal...that is the most complex thing imaginable, and i would assume you believe that there is nothing greater than God, and with that belief, you ironically shot your own argument in the foot, because the probability of such a complex being is far less likely that billions of coins stood on their end.
Just as you were indoctrinated to be athiest, as you claimed your parents were. Again, and again, and again with this Noir. You are more obsessed with Christianity than any person on this site.
How was i indoctrinated into being an atheist exactly?
And no your memory has failed you, my mum is a Christian and my dad is an athiest/agnostic (i'm not really sure as we never talked about religion, but i'd think he'd be more of an athiest)
And no, as i have said many many times, its not Christianity, its religion as a whole i am against, but there's no point in coming on here and having a go at Hinduism, as you guys will all agree its a load of tosh and the point of the argument will be lost within that.
HogTrash
02-15-2010, 11:33 AM
So you happily concede the New Testament perches sexism?LOL!...Most all pre-20th century writtings were sexist.
Hell, most all 20th century writtings were sexist...LOL!
Another indication of your marxist enfluenced atheism.
Racism and Sexism are well known marxist strategies, Noir.
Personally, I see atheists as a bunch of cry-baby, spoiled, rebellious children who just want to deny the beliefs of their forefathers so they can do whatever they want without any guilt.
Any resemblances to Liberals was completely unintentional, mea culpa. :coffee:
There first had to be Theists in order for there to be A-Theists.
Yeah thats what i want, a guilt free life, thats why i spend all my time getting drunk, having multiple sexual partners and so forth, while my Christian friends are models of sobriety and sexual chastity [please not this was packed to the rafters with sarcasm)
I live by the mantra of the Golden rule, and i do not need the bribe of eternal life, or the fear of eternal damnation to make me stick to it.
Such as atheist perchance? Like it or not Noir, people are going to raise their child as they see fit. I certainly don't agree with much of the parenting I see going on....I haven't even been thrilled with every single aspect of my own parenting skills. However, even with mistakes made, children brought up to feel cared for generally turn out reasonably well. But, do you truly expect for society to reach into every household and manipulate every aspect of how every parent raises every child? Would that be reasonable and acceptable?[/quoye]
I'll admit i laughed at the "atheist"
And i know, as i said in a previous reply the state is not the answer, attitudes at home have to change, which will be a veryyyyy slow process, but it will happen i'm just looking to raise consciousness towards the issue.
[quote]If this had been the first post where I've seen you jab at Christianity I would not have pointed out not perception that you are taking pot shots. I have posted film footage of children being taught much more disturbing things, such as being suicide martyrs for Islam and didn't see a response from you about that. Footage depicting veiled women being publicly whipped by men is out there too, but you're not posting that. So, here ya go...how's this for 'child abuse'?
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No, Noir, the drum you persistently beat is that of Anti-Christianity, and it has not gone unnoticed. Why not just leave it alone if you don't like it? :poke:
I have honestly never seen you post threads like that, sorry i missed them, but i don't know how many times i have to say this, i am against all religion, but there's no point in posting questions about the Islamic faith or Hindu faith and so forth, because no one on this site is going to argue against that.
And this is too important to 'leave alone'
Sorry bout that,
1. Here's how I read what Noirs perfect world entails.
2. No religion to be taught any child.
3. Until they reach maturity, let's say 19.
4. About the time they enter college.
5. Then the atheist professors get a crack at their heads full of mush first.
6. And then and only then afterwards, they get to take a Bible class.
7. If it's sticks at that point, then it's okay by him.
8. This way everyone has an equal opertunity of being *F*ed up for life just like he is.
9. He's so lonely being the only atheist he knows.
10. Misery loves company, and it's true you waste much effort casting pearls to swine.
11. No offense Noir, it's just something Jesus said, and I'm sure in your whole life you have been under the weight of being told Jesus is out to get you, maybe he is, you might want to ask why?
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
This is all utter tosh, please consult an earlier post i made for an 'ideal world'
can you document for me who these people are who are racist because of their religion?....
Muslims being brought up to hate jews is an obvious modern day example, but there are countless examples throughout history,
All of this is probably true but you're leaving something out.....The catalyst.
It is possible you don't even realize it but if you think hard enough, you'll remember.
The 'catalyst' was an inquisitive mind, religions don't stand well against questions.
LOL!...Most all pre-20th century writtings were sexist.
Hell, most all 20th century writtings were sexist...LOL!
Another indication of your marxist enfluenced atheism.
Racism and Sexism are well known marxist strategies, Noir.
So you are saying that it is only sexist because of the time in which it was written?
BoogyMan
02-15-2010, 01:01 PM
So you happily concede the New Testament perches sexism?
Sexism? Sexism is a concept that denies that man and woman are actually and by design, different from one another. You cannot by any standard prove sexism based on what the New Testament teaches about man and woman.
Only by applying modern liberal ideology can one decry the attitudes taught by the Bible about woman as sexism. It is like calling any objection to homosexuality out as homophobia and is just as dishonest.
Sexism? Sexism is a concept that denies that man and woman are actually and by design, different from one another. You cannot by any standard prove sexism based on what the New Testament teaches about man and woman.
Only by applying modern liberal ideology can one decry the attitudes taught by the Bible about woman as sexism. It is like calling any objection to homosexuality out as homophobia and is just as dishonest.
lol, so thats a yes and no, lemme put it another way, do you think that in todays more modern more liberal society a women should be able to become pope?
BoogyMan
02-15-2010, 01:08 PM
lol, so thats a yes and no, lemme put it another way, do you think that in todays more modern more liberal society a women should be able to become pope?
I will answer that with a question.
Where exactly in the New Testament do we read about a pope?
Mr. P
02-15-2010, 01:12 PM
Sexism? Sexism is a concept that denies that man and woman are actually and by design, different from one another. You cannot by any standard prove sexism based on what the New Testament teaches about man and woman.
Only by applying modern liberal ideology can one decry the attitudes taught by the Bible about woman as sexism. It is like calling any objection to homosexuality out as homophobia and is just as dishonest.
Just a question..If modern liberal ideology is not applied..would you like to see women continue to be subservient to men??
BoogyMan
02-15-2010, 01:15 PM
Just a question..If modern liberal ideology is not applied..would you like to see women continue to be subservient to men??
According to the text of the New Testament, women are not to be in positions of spiritual leadership. It is as it was designed by God. We don't have any right to change that.
Now, to deal with your intentional use of the most inflammatory term possible. The term used in the New Testament is submit, it means to follow the leadership of another and in the context it is speaking of spiritual matters.
When we look at this honestly without the modern liberal ideologies, your argument falls completely flat.
Mr. P
02-15-2010, 01:23 PM
According to the text of the New Testament, women are not to be in positions of spiritual leadership. It is as it was designed by God. We don't have any right to change that.
Now, to deal with your intentional use of the most inflammatory term possible. The term used in the New Testament is submit, it means to follow the leadership of another and in the context it is speaking of spiritual matters.
When we look at this honestly without the modern liberal ideologies, your argument falls completely flat.
I wasn't making an argument, I was asking a question. But since you added "submit" I'd suggest most reasonable folks accept and understand that as subservient.
Can't a woman follow God on her own? Must she follow a man?
That my friend IS subservient.
I will answer that with a question.
Where exactly in the New Testament do we read about a pope?
You were the one that said "The man is to take the leadership roles in Christs church, not the woman."
I would say the pope is a leadership role, yeah?
Now, do you think a women should be able to be pope?
Abbey Marie
02-15-2010, 02:00 PM
[/quoye]
I'll admit i laughed at the "atheist"
And i know, as i said in a previous reply the state is not the answer, attitudes at home have to change, which will be a veryyyyy slow process, but it will happen i'm just looking to raise consciousness towards the issue.
I have honestly never seen you post threads like that, sorry i missed them, but i don't know how many times i have to say this, i am against all religion, but there's no point in posting questions about the Islamic faith or Hindu faith and so forth, because no one on this site is going to argue against that.
And this is too important to 'leave alone'
I am sure there are countless people reading this board of all religions. If you really cared about denouncing all religions, you would be doing it. The excuse that your audience is only Christian is weak at best.
I still think you are Christian-phobic. On some level you realize it is the true faith, so it is the only one scares you enough to criticize. That's ok, we Christians get it. ;)
Missileman
02-15-2010, 02:21 PM
The Bible clearly stated the earth to be round many years before Christ. Circles are round BTW.
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
A circle is two dimensional. A pizza is both round and flat and is not a globe. Your passage demonstrates nothing.
You did manage to totally miss the point however. Beliefs held by previous generations aren't necessarily based on fact...to the contrary, the accuracy of the belief is inversely proportional to the age of the belief.
I am sure there are countless people reading this board of all religions. If you really cared about denouncing all religions, you would be doing it. The excuse that your audience is only Christian is weak at best.
I still think you are Christian-phobic. On some level you realize it is the true faith, so it is the only one scares you enough to criticize. That's ok, we Christians get it. ;)
Whatever, i'm beyond the point of caring, if you want to see me as only anti-christain then fair enough, i'm not going to waste my time trying to convince people that i know what i think better than they know what i think. So i'll say one last time for the record, i am against all religions, christianity is no special case.
PostmodernProphet
02-15-2010, 02:53 PM
So you happily concede the New Testament perches sexism?
I would make no such concession.....there are some that argue texts of the NT prohibit women from serving.....however, there are other texts which make it clear that women did in fact serve.....when you have a contradiction of texts one must examine whether one has been misinterpreted....the texts in Timothy are likely targets of that examination.....the original language is not such that you would interpret them to say "not let ANY woman", but are more likely to be "not let THAT woman"....thus, being a response to a question from Timothy regarding someone who was stirring up trouble in his church......
PostmodernProphet
02-15-2010, 02:57 PM
Muslims being brought up to hate jews is an obvious modern day example, but there are countless examples throughout history,
since Jews obviously come in a variety of races your first choice is problematic.......I am more interested in current examples than those from the 13th Century, thanks......even the atheists were more ignorant then.....
PostmodernProphet
02-15-2010, 02:59 PM
.to the contrary, the accuracy of the belief is inversely proportional to the age of the belief.
lol....does that make Truthers more accurate?....it's a rather new belief, isn't it?....
I would make no such concession.....there are some that argue texts of the NT prohibit women from serving.....however, there are other texts which make it clear that women did in fact serve.....when you have a contradiction of texts one must examine whether one has been misinterpreted....the texts in Timothy are likely targets of that examination.....the original language is not such that you would interpret them to say "not let ANY woman", but are more likely to be "not let THAT woman"....thus, being a response to a question from Timothy regarding someone who was stirring up trouble in his church......
When it says something you like you praise it, when it says something you don't its a mistranslation, i assume 1 Corinthians 14:34
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says
or Ephesians 5:22
Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
or 1 Peter 3:1
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
or Colossians 3:18
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
I could go on, all can't me mistranslations can they?
since Jews obviously come in a variety of races your first choice is problematic.......I am more interested in current examples than those from the 13th Century, thanks......even the atheists were more ignorant then.....
D'aw, how sweet, you are not interested in the history of religion, i guess i can't expect you to defend the indefensible.
And while ofcourse there are converts from all sorts of races, but you can not deny there is a jewish race, which is vilified and so forth by Many Islamic preachers.
PostmodernProphet
02-15-2010, 04:43 PM
D'aw, how sweet, you are not interested in the history of religion, i guess i can't expect you to defend the indefensible.
And while ofcourse there are converts from all sorts of races, but you can not deny there is a jewish race, which is vilified and so forth by Many Islamic preachers.
not as a definition of what exists today, no....I'm not......I'm more concerned with what exists today when discussing what exists today....
and of course I will deny there is a Jewish "race"....it simply doesn't exist.....Judaism can not be genetically identified.....
PostmodernProphet
02-15-2010, 04:44 PM
When it says something you like you praise it, when it says something you don't its a mistranslation,
when I find two statements that appear to contradict each other the first thing I look for is a mistranslation......I find it generally to be true....
if you seriously want to examine any of them in depth I will accommodate....
PostmodernProphet
02-15-2010, 04:59 PM
passages like Ephesians 5 have always been my favorite examples....in the original Greek you will often find that a verb will be referred to from a previous statement....it is one of the evidences that verses are related to each other in meaning.....in Ephesians 5:21 we have
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
uJpotassovmenoi {V-PPP-NPM} ajllhvloi? {C-DPM} ejn {PREP} fovbw/ {N-DSM} Xristou'. {N-GSM}
in Ephesians 5:22 we have
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
AiJ {T-NPF} gunai'ke? {N-NPF} toi'? {T-DPM} ijdivoi? {A-DPM} ajndravsin {N-DPM} wJ? {ADV} tw'/ {T-DSM} kurivw/, {N-DSM}
there is actually no word in verse 22 which is translated as "submit".....instead we have toi which means "do this"....
literally the translation is "submit to each other.....wives do this by"......
in verse 25 you have the masculine parallel which is literally "husbands, do this by".......
and in 6:1 you have the parallel, "Children, do this by"
for some reason nobody ever wants to talk about Ephesians 5:21.....they only want to talk about 5:22.....yet, without 5:21, verse 22 doesn't even have a verb.....
Joyful HoneyBee
02-15-2010, 11:53 PM
I'll admit i laughed at the "atheist"
And i know, as i said in a previous reply the state is not the answer, attitudes at home have to change, which will be a veryyyyy slow process, but it will happen i'm just looking to raise consciousness towards the issue.
I have honestly never seen you post threads like that, sorry i missed them, but i don't know how many times i have to say this, i am against all religion, but there's no point in posting questions about the Islamic faith or Hindu faith and so forth, because no one on this site is going to argue against that.
And this is too important to 'leave alone'
Too important to leave alone? You cited one extreme example of so-called Jesus Camp and hinged an entire argument on that. That is incredibly slanted and inaccurate. Again I will reiterate that I find MANY practices of 'religiosity' quite atrocious; however, just because messages get skewed doesn't taint all of Christianity. A few years ago I worked with a gentlemen that everyone perceived as being atheist, however, he had confided in me that he had faith in God, just not in organized religion. I truly understand that perspective. We've certainly had plenty of episodes of 'bad examples' coming out of organized religion. Priests, pastors and so called 'shepherds' of various ranks and multiple denominations have been involved in all manner of sexually lewd activities, greed and corruption of staggering proportions, and still had the gall to stand in a pulpit and preach to their congregations as if everything was hunky dorie. Evangelicals such as Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart made a great mockery of religion with their extravagant lifestyles and irreverent behaviors. Cultists such as Jim Jones and the Branch Davidians turned the quest for utopia into hell on earth for their followers.
But, Jeremiah did warn people to be wary of false shepherds, after all. False shepherds are plentiful in this world, and even in the time Jesus walked this earth as a man, He took issue with the chief priests, scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees. He warned them that not only would they not make it to heaven, but that they blocked the path for others as well. I see this going on to this day in churches all around the world in all kinds of religions.
True faith in God has little to do with warming a pew on Saturday or Sunday morning, or lighting a candle here and there for this reason or that, tent revivals or the various other vehicles used by organized religion(s). True faith has nothing to do with nodding approval to a preacher who cites one line of scripture and builds an entire sermon around it, frequently taking it out of context. True faith requires one to look out beyond the big picture that can be seen with human eyes to the bigger reality that this did not all happen by chance and freaky quirks of nature. True faith requires one to ask pertinent questions and seek relevant answers. In today's world it really isn't surprising that people are losing faith. However, for those who do walk by faith the world is a much less scary place.
actsnoblemartin
02-16-2010, 12:07 AM
noir, if your gonna denounce all religions, then do so
but dont hide behind their are no muslims here bullshit
maybe your just scared to criticize the great peaceful religion
'
:lol:
glockmail
02-16-2010, 08:57 AM
No Sir, you are the one with the lame argument. For it tries to reason a god through probability, in your case using the metaphor of coins. Now tell me, what could possibly be more probable that the idea of a being that lives outside of time and space, is all powerful, all knowing and eternal...that is the most complex thing imaginable, and i would assume you believe that there is nothing greater than God, and with that belief, you ironically shot your own argument in the foot, because the probability of such a complex being is far less likely that billions of coins stood on their end. Your argument ignores the probability argument by stating that something that created the complex universe would have to be even more complex, and therefore less probable. This is more circular reasoning. :lame2:
chloe
02-16-2010, 09:02 AM
Indeedy, i'm sure there are many atheist racists, but they are not racist because of their religion, as some religious people are. You do not think it is acceptable to pass on racism, but is it okay to pass on racism through religion? and if not then at what point do you stop?
atheists racists worhsip their race instead of God
And i don't think its right that children are taught that they must do good will to get into heaven (in christianity) or that the penalty for apostasy is he be murdered (in Islam) and so forth.
Children are taught to be good, when you are living in wrong behaviors it is like a self created Hell. Heaven is an interpretation, so you can create heaven on earth and be happy by living in good principals, religion gives God credit and atheists don't, but being upright is a good idea whether you are religious or not.
Not to mention the fact that religion can be racist and sexist and so forth, again islam is an obvious example. You do not think it is right for a child to be brought up sexist, yet it is the right of the parent to teach their religion, in the case of Islam, sexism is part of the religion.
I agree about the sexism.
You don't think that people should be brought up to hate other people or to discriminate, and yet that is the basis for all relgion, that the followers of one group are the 'chosen' and so forth.
No only that, but children are made to fear for their very 'soul' with tales of heaven, hell and lakes of fire.
No not all religion teaches hate, some humans teach hate and they use religion wickedly to justify hate, but not all religion condones that practice.
You said in this post "people should still have the right to do what they want" were do you draw the line? At what point of physical or mental abuse does the right of the parent get overridden by the right of the child?
Yes people have a right to raise kids in philosophy too and take them richard dawkins camps and teach them not to believe in God and even to teach them to hate religion or mock religious people.
Very true, there are wicked people out there, whether they are theist, atheist or anywhere in between. But i have never heard of someone being anti-gay because they are atheist, or that they hate a certain race of people because there is no god. I have i have certainly heard of people that are anti-gay because their God disapproves of it, or that they hate a certain race of people because there is a their God wants them to hate them, and so forth.
When you say that a person should be able to indoctrinate their child you open the door for them to be taught who knows what, in the name of religion.
Now obviously i'm not saying that every religious person raises their children to be racists or homophobic or anything like that, but the main premise of any religion is to do what your God wants you to do.
Not all religion is against gay people either.
We have i said that atheists do not indoctrinate? I'm sure that quiet a few do, which is wrong IMO.
and i agree with the second paragraph, that would be most undesirable. But while some atheists may chose to live that way, all theists have too, as by definition, they are the 'chosen'.
People have a right to teach their beliefs atheist or religious, the government intervenes when it becomes abuse.
glockmail
02-16-2010, 09:03 AM
I believe the challenge was "Prove me wrong".
A lil reading comprehension problem there, Glock?
ABBY..Personally, I'd never equate teaching wiping ones ass with teaching religion..But to each his own.
You have committed a logical fallacy:
Shifting the Burden of Proof
If we assert a statement as truth, it is up to us to establish its validity. We can't make the opponent of our argument responsible for proving its opposite (although we'd like to).
"Vegetarianism is a stupid, unnatural lifestyle, and I'd like to see anyone prove me wrong on that."http://punctilious.org/grammar/composition/argument_logic.htm
You failed. :slap:
passages like Ephesians 5 have always been my favorite examples....in the original Greek you will often find that a verb will be referred to from a previous statement....it is one of the evidences that verses are related to each other in meaning.....in Ephesians 5:21 we have
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
uJpotassovmenoi {V-PPP-NPM} ajllhvloi? {C-DPM} ejn {PREP} fovbw/ {N-DSM} Xristou'. {N-GSM}
in Ephesians 5:22 we have
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
AiJ {T-NPF} gunai'ke? {N-NPF} toi'? {T-DPM} ijdivoi? {A-DPM} ajndravsin {N-DPM} wJ? {ADV} tw'/ {T-DSM} kurivw/, {N-DSM}
there is actually no word in verse 22 which is translated as "submit".....instead we have toi which means "do this"....
literally the translation is "submit to each other.....wives do this by"......
in verse 25 you have the masculine parallel which is literally "husbands, do this by".......
and in 6:1 you have the parallel, "Children, do this by"
for some reason nobody ever wants to talk about Ephesians 5:21.....they only want to talk about 5:22.....yet, without 5:21, verse 22 doesn't even have a verb.....
So why don't you write your own bible for publication without all of the mistranslations?
Too important to leave alone? You cited one extreme example of so-called Jesus Camp and hinged an entire argument on that. That is incredibly slanted and inaccurate. Again I will reiterate that I find MANY practices of 'religiosity' quite atrocious; however, just because messages get skewed doesn't taint all of Christianity. A few years ago I worked with a gentlemen that everyone perceived as being atheist, however, he had confided in me that he had faith in God, just not in organized religion. I truly understand that perspective. We've certainly had plenty of episodes of 'bad examples' coming out of organized religion. Priests, pastors and so called 'shepherds' of various ranks and multiple denominations have been involved in all manner of sexually lewd activities, greed and corruption of staggering proportions, and still had the gall to stand in a pulpit and preach to their congregations as if everything was hunky dorie. Evangelicals such as Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart made a great mockery of religion with their extravagant lifestyles and irreverent behaviors. Cultists such as Jim Jones and the Branch Davidians turned the quest for utopia into hell on earth for their followers.
But, Jeremiah did warn people to be wary of false shepherds, after all. False shepherds are plentiful in this world, and even in the time Jesus walked this earth as a man, He took issue with the chief priests, scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees. He warned them that not only would they not make it to heaven, but that they blocked the path for others as well. I see this going on to this day in churches all around the world in all kinds of religions.
True faith in God has little to do with warming a pew on Saturday or Sunday morning, or lighting a candle here and there for this reason or that, tent revivals or the various other vehicles used by organized religion(s). True faith has nothing to do with nodding approval to a preacher who cites one line of scripture and builds an entire sermon around it, frequently taking it out of context. True faith requires one to look out beyond the big picture that can be seen with human eyes to the bigger reality that this did not all happen by chance and freaky quirks of nature. True faith requires one to ask pertinent questions and seek relevant answers. In today's world it really isn't surprising that people are losing faith. However, for those who do walk by faith the world is a much less scary place.
I posted this video to show the level of child abuse that is acceptable because of religion, and it is not happening in some far of land, but in your own country, but because it has the blanket protection of the word 'religion' it is acceptable, when it is so clearly wrong.
As i have said before in this thread that is an extreme example, but everyday children in everyday homes are brought up to believe in heaven and hell, in virgin births and thought reading deities, and can that right be questioned? Ofcourse it can't, why not? Because it just can't.
Maybe there is a god as you see it, maybe the Christians are right, maybe the Muslims are, maybe the Greeks had it right all along, but to force children to accept on or another just because of an accident about when and where they where born is unacceptable IMO.
noir, if your gonna denounce all religions, then do so
but dont hide behind their are no muslims here bullshit
maybe your just scared to criticize the great peaceful religion
'
:lol:
Oh great, another guy who knows what i think better than i know what i think
/sark
atheists racists worhsip their race instead of God
Very true, and they are idiots IMO, I'm sure there are plenty of atheists like with views akin to those of Hogtrash. And i would find the idea of them passing on their horrid beliefs just as repulsive as those who pass on whatever religion they subscribe to.
I agree about the sexism.
So you do not agree with children being brought up sexist, but if their religion teaches them to be sexist then thats okay?
Yes people have a right to raise kids in philosophy too and take them richard dawkins camps and teach them not to believe in God and even to teach them to hate religion or mock religious people.
Indeedy they do, i also disagree with these 'atheist camps'. It is not for adults to tell children there is one certain God, or probably none at all, it is for adults to teach their children the Golden Rule and let the child decide what view they have on deities when they are old enough to decide for themselves.
Not all religion is against gay people either.
No, i'm sure there are those that are not, but that is not to say that religion is okay then, because some are more accepting than others. I mean the majority of the dispute over if it is okay to be gay or not is one that takes place within religion.
People have a right to teach their beliefs atheist or religious, the government intervenes when it becomes abuse.
Define abuse? For example, is teaching a child that they will go to hell if they lie and do not ask for forgiveness abuse? (In Christianity) Or is teaching a child that the penalty for turning their back on Allah is to be put to death (In Islam) and so forth?
Your argument ignores the probability argument by stating that something that created the complex universe would have to be even more complex, and therefore less probable. This is more circular reasoning. :lame2:
...Okay, lemme break this down a minute.
You say the chance of something extremely rare happening is too improbable, ergo there must be a God.
However, any creator must be, by definition, more complex than its creation.
Now please explain to me how something more complex is more probable.
BoogyMan
02-16-2010, 02:48 PM
passages like Ephesians 5 have always been my favorite examples....in the original Greek you will often find that a verb will be referred to from a previous statement....it is one of the evidences that verses are related to each other in meaning.....in Ephesians 5:21 we have
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
uJpotassovmenoi {V-PPP-NPM} ajllhvloi? {C-DPM} ejn {PREP} fovbw/ {N-DSM} Xristou'. {N-GSM}
in Ephesians 5:22 we have
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
AiJ {T-NPF} gunai'ke? {N-NPF} toi'? {T-DPM} ijdivoi? {A-DPM} ajndravsin {N-DPM} wJ? {ADV} tw'/ {T-DSM} kurivw/, {N-DSM}
there is actually no word in verse 22 which is translated as "submit".....instead we have toi which means "do this"....
literally the translation is "submit to each other.....wives do this by"......
in verse 25 you have the masculine parallel which is literally "husbands, do this by".......
and in 6:1 you have the parallel, "Children, do this by"
for some reason nobody ever wants to talk about Ephesians 5:21.....they only want to talk about 5:22.....yet, without 5:21, verse 22 doesn't even have a verb.....
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2700/4363377276_586c1bd5d7_o.jpg
You are picking and choosing as the word hupotassomenoi, a word you left out my friend, essentially means "being under set."
How about pressing on to Eph 5:23 PMP.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
You have done exactly what you say others have done when you leave this text out of your exegesis.
PostmodernProphet
02-16-2010, 03:35 PM
So why don't you write your own bible for publication without all of the mistranslations?
because the only time I need to deal with these issues is when I have to argue with folks who aren't already aware of the few problem areas out there......folks like atheists.....and you don't really care what the accurate translation is anyway.......
PostmodernProphet
02-16-2010, 03:41 PM
You are picking and choosing as the word hupotassomenoi, a word you left out my friend, essentially means "being under set."
????...yes, I did leave it out....because as far as I can see, in both from both the King James and the New American Standard translations of the original text it isn't in there.....what is the source of the jpg you posted, please....
this is the source of mine...
http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/passage.aspx?q=ephesians+5&t=kjv
glockmail
02-16-2010, 04:10 PM
...Okay, lemme break this down a minute.
You say the chance of something extremely rare happening is too improbable, ergo there must be a God.
However, any creator must be, by definition, more complex than its creation.
Now please explain to me how something more complex is more probable. You are trying to equate the complexity of an individual's mind with that of the complexity of physical systems; yet these things cannot be compared. The mind becomes more complex with thought and study; physical systems are static.
BoogyMan
02-16-2010, 04:32 PM
????...yes, I did leave it out....because as far as I can see, in both from both the King James and the New American Standard translations of the original text it isn't in there.....what is the source of the jpg you posted, please....
this is the source of mine...
http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/passage.aspx?q=ephesians+5&t=kjv
Gladly, it is the Online Greek Interlinear (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm).
because the only time I need to deal with these issues is when I have to argue with folks who aren't already aware of the few problem areas out there......folks like atheists.....and you don't really care what the accurate translation is anyway.......
Ah right, so accuracy isn't important, because those that need to know know that they are inaccuracies, so they may as well just be left inaccurate =/
You are trying to equate the complexity of an individual's mind with that of the complexity of physical systems; yet these things cannot be compared. The mind becomes more complex with thought and study; physical systems are static.
So you agree that a mind is more complex than a physical system (i.e. anything that we could physically have, like a load of coins stood on their ends)
And as God must have the most complex mind possible, then surly all you have done is confirm the notion that the chances of something happening physically are far better than if there was a creator of infinite complexity behind it.
HogTrash
02-16-2010, 07:06 PM
Oh great, another guy who knows what i think better than i know what i think
/sarkLOL!...You are pretty easy to figure out peckerwood...But then, most liberals are. :dunno:
PostmodernProphet
02-16-2010, 07:27 PM
Gladly, it is the Online Greek Interlinear (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm).
I find that troublesome.....here is the original Greek text....the word you refer to simply isn't there...
21ὑποτασσόμενοι ἀλλήλοις ἐν φόβῳ Χριστοῦ. 22Αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ, 23ὅτι ἀνήρ ἐστιν κεφαλὴ τῆς γυναικὸς ὡς καὶ ὁ Χριστὸς κεφαλὴ τῆς ἐκκλησίας, αὐτὸς σωτὴρ τοῦ σώματος. 24ἀλλὰ ὡς ἡ ἐκκλησία ὑποτάσσεται τῷ Χριστῷ, οὕτως καὶ αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἀνδράσιν ἐν παντί. 25Οἱ ἄνδρες, ἀγαπᾶτε τὰς γυναῖκας, καθὼς καὶ ὁ Χριστὸς ἠγάπησεν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν καὶ ἑαυτὸν παρέδωκεν ὑπὲρ αὐτῆς,
http://www.greekbible.com/index.php
I don't find any information on your source website that explains where they draw their text from....do you have any information on that?....
every time I try to click on Ephesians 5 from your link my computer freezes up.....I will try again tomorrow....maybe their site is down....
PostmodernProphet
02-16-2010, 07:36 PM
Ah right, so accuracy isn't important, because those that need to know know that they are inaccuracies, so they may as well just be left inaccurate =/
no....there are those who don't make the error of reading inaccurately.....there are those who HOPE there are inaccuracies.....and there are those who try to exploit the inaccuracies.....
it's the difference between us....
there really isn't much reason to be concerned about Ephesians 5, so long as you don't try to make it dance to a tune that isn't being played.....one can find a great deal of wisdom there on how to make marriage relationships work.....if on the other hand you try to twist it into some weapon to force submission, or even worse try to use it to discredit a religion by pretending it says something it doesn't....then it's necessary to point out your errors......I see no reason to rewrite the bible in such a way as to prevent an atheist from distorting it....especially since they would just find another way to distort it.....
PostmodernProphet
02-16-2010, 07:39 PM
So you agree that a mind is more complex than a physical system (i.e. anything that we could physically have, like a load of coins stood on their ends)
And as God must have the most complex mind possible, then surly all you have done is confirm the notion that the chances of something happening physically are far better than if there was a creator of infinite complexity behind it.
why?.....coins should not be anticipated to have the capacity to do complex things on their own.....omnipotent deities, on the other hand, would be assumed capable.....
why?.....coins should not be anticipated to have the capacity to do complex things on their own.....omnipotent deities, on the other hand, would be assumed capable.....
But what are these coins made of? Electrons and so forth, which have been known to do very complex things, such as be in two places at once, and given an infinite amount of time, they could do anything.
Missileman
02-16-2010, 07:48 PM
LOL!...You are pretty easy to figure out peckerwood...But then, most liberals are. :dunno:
That's an ironic statement from a one-trick-pony.
PostmodernProphet
02-16-2010, 07:57 PM
Gladly, it is the Online Greek Interlinear (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm).
okay, Booge....
according to your website's homepage, their source is Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus....
if you read the synopsis of that source you find that "Scrivener's intent was to artificially create a Greek text that closely matched the translator-modified Textus Receptus text and the resulting English version.".....
thus your quote comes from a Greek translation of an English translation of a Latin translation of the original Greek.....my quote comes from the original Greek.....sorry, dude.....
http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/TR1894MR
BoogyMan
02-16-2010, 08:11 PM
okay, Booge....
according to your website's homepage, their source is Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus....
if you read the synopsis of that source you find that "Scrivener's intent was to artificially create a Greek text that closely matched the translator-modified Textus Receptus text and the resulting English version.".....
thus your quote comes from a Greek translation of an English translation of a Latin translation of the original Greek.....my quote comes from the original Greek.....sorry, dude.....
http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/TR1894MR
The text is the same in 5:23 no matter what Greek you wish to put out there my friend.
http://biblos.com/ephesians/5-21.htm
http://biblos.com/ephesians/5-22.htm
http://biblos.com/ephesians/5-23.htm
The key verse, the one you left out, is verse 23 which puts the whole idea into full context.
There is really no way for you to change the word κεφαλή (hephale) into anything other than "head." Even if you wish to challege the Scrivener work, you cannot change the meaning of κεφαλή in verse 23.
glockmail
02-16-2010, 08:52 PM
So you agree that a mind is more complex than a physical system (i.e. anything that we could physically have, like a load of coins stood on their ends)
And as God must have the most complex mind possible, then surly all you have done is confirm the notion that the chances of something happening physically are far better than if there was a creator of infinite complexity behind it. Actually what I have done is show that the chances of the physical universe happening by pure chance are extremely small, well, well beyond a reasonable doubt. You can choose to have atheist faith in that small number, but it is of course unreasonable to make that choice.
glockmail
02-16-2010, 08:54 PM
But what are these coins made of? Electrons and so forth, which have been known to do very complex things, such as be in two places at once, and given an infinite amount of time, they could do anything. Sure, but for an infinitesimally small amount of time, in an infinitesimally small point in space.
Sure, but for an infinitesimally small amount of time, in an infinitesimally small point in space.
No, over an infinite amount of time anything can happen, for how long and on what scale will not matter.
Actually what I have done is show that the chances of the physical universe happening by pure chance are extremely small, well, well beyond a reasonable doubt. You can choose to have atheist faith in that small number, but it is of course unreasonable to make that choice.
Indeedy its very very very very very very unlikely, but over an infinite amount of time it becomes a certainty.
What is much more unlikely is that a God would suddenly come into being, meaning that there is probably no god.
BoogyMan
02-16-2010, 10:24 PM
Indeedy its very very very very very very unlikely, but over an infinite amount of time it becomes a certainty.
What is much more unlikely is that a God would suddenly come into being, meaning that there is probably no god.
What is more likely than the atheist view is that you repeatedly bang your Volkswagen into a tree and when you finish doing that for several days you have a pristine Porsche Boxter.
God didn't suddenly come into being, I Am is the Alpha and the Omega, He always was and always will be.
What is more likely than the atheist view is that you repeatedly bang your Volkswagen into a tree and when you finish doing that for several days you have a pristine Porsche Boxter.
God didn't suddenly come into being, I Am is the Alpha and the Omega, He always was and always will be.
No, not 'several days' that is laughable, you could do it for trillions of trillions of years and still it not of been long enough.
And how delightful. 'God has always been there' that is the answer to NOTHING
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