If I were a "pastor"............

[-Cp]

If I was a pastor of a "traditional" church, I'd sell the church building and give the money to the families who are loosing their homes. Then I'd tell the members to use their money to pay their own bills first. And if they felt lead, they could help the other families who are in greater need. And lastly, I'd get a job for myself that would help me give to the sheep I care for and not be a parasite to them.

[hjmick]

I'd buy the building and turn it into a bar and grill.

[Noir]

Well said,

Sadly in reality though you have organisations like the Catholic church sits with its vast collection of priceless art and so forth.

[Mr. P]

I'd buy the building and turn it into a bar and grill.

I'll go half with ya an open a motel for the families who are loosing their homes.

[glockmail]

What about the spiritual needs of the community?

[Abbey Marie]

What about the spiritual needs of the community?

I guess that's not valued. :(
Funny thing is, this life is fleeting, and to dust we shall return. Call me crazy, but I like my spiritual leader, aka pastor, to have the big, eternal, picture in mind, as well as day-to-day material needs.

[PostmodernProphet]

If I was a pastor of a "traditional" church, I'd sell the church building and give the money to the families who are loosing their homes. Then I'd tell the members to use their money to pay their own bills first. And if they felt lead, they could help the other families who are in greater need. And lastly, I'd get a job for myself that would help me give to the sheep I care for and not be a parasite to them.

actually, if you were the pastor of a traditional church you wouldn't own the church building and would have no right to sell it......it would belong to the congregation and you would likely be someone they hired to lead the church for a period ranging from three to seven years before you moved on somewhere else.....

and, in the current economy your members would already be paying their own bills and might be contributing what THEY chose to the church of their choice......and, if the church were operating as most churches do, the money collected would already be in use, helping others in need.....

[hjmick]

What about the spiritual needs of the community?

I fear that if the spiritual needs of the community are dependent on a building, the community may have bigger issues than a crazy pastor selling it out from under them.

[Noir]

I guess that's not valued. :(
Funny thing is, this life is fleeting, and to dust we shall return. Call me crazy, but I like my spiritual leader, aka pastor, to have the big, eternal, picture in mind, as well as day-to-day material needs.

And how do the treasures of the catholic church, help the spiritual needs of the community?

[BoogyMan]

And how do the treasures of the catholic church, help the spiritual needs of the community?

They don't. That is why one would not turn to the Catholic church as an example of the church described in the New Testament.

Why do atheists only care about tending to physical and not spiritual needs?

[avatar4321]

If i were a pastor of a tradional church, id have a pretty sweet job.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,





They don't. That is why one would not turn to the Catholic church as an example of the church described in the New Testament.

Why do atheists only care about tending to physical and not spiritual needs?



1. I know! I know!!! ,...... can I answer that???!!!
2. Because they are spiritually dead????
3. Don't you love when questions are answered with another question???!
4. I know you do!!!!:laugh2:


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. But when your the *First Church*, thats been around nearly 2000 years, you can't help but gather up some wealth.
2. Seeing many who die leave everything to my Church.
3. Imagine over that period of time, people leaving their wealth to the Catholic Church.
4. It would be a *Pretty Penny*!
5. Don't hate or be jealous of others, covetness is a bad thing, don't cha know?


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Noir]

They don't. That is why one would not turn to the Catholic church as an example of the church described in the New Testament.

Why do atheists only care about tending to physical and not spiritual needs?

I wouldn't say i'm more concerned about physical needs than anything else, the mind is as important as the the body.

However, it seems that the Catholic Faith, Protestant Faith and Islamic Faith all have something striking in common, they want to own paintings, sculptures and grand buildings more than they would rather not own them and use the money from there sale to help people.

[Jeff]

What about the spiritual needs of the community?

Obama is going to pass a bill for spiritual guidance as soon as his health care goes threw, He wants everything , :laugh2:

[glockmail]

I fear that if the spiritual needs of the community are dependent on a building, the community may have bigger issues than a crazy pastor selling it out from under them.
Folks need a gathering place to worship.

[Jeff]

Folks need a gathering place to worship.

Glock a congregation can get together in your yard and worship, and ya can also worship all by yourself anywhere anytime

[glockmail]

And how do the treasures of the catholic church, help the spiritual needs of the community? They are only treasures because the Catholic church exists, otherwise they'd just be mundane things, since the artists were inspired by the Church. When I saw them at the Vatican I was inspired as well. Too bad I only had a day there as I could have spent weeks.

[glockmail]

Glock a congregation can get together in your yard and worship, and ya can also worship all by yourself anywhere anytime Very true, and folks do, but the history of church building goes back to Exodus. God gave specific design instructions back then for a simple tent with wooden sides, and as the community grew more prosperous, more ornate structures were built to reflect on His generosity.

[Noir]

They are only treasures because the Catholic church exists, otherwise they'd just be mundane things, since the artists were inspired by the Church. When I saw them at the Vatican I was inspired as well. Too bad I only had a day there as I could have spent weeks.

Lol, inspired by the church? Yeah, inspired by the money that the church was paying them more like.

[Jeff]

Very true, and folks do, but the history of church building goes back to Exodus. God gave specific design instructions back then for a simple tent with wooden sides, and as the community grew more prosperous, more ornate structures were built to reflect on His generosity.

Agreed :thumb:

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. But the spiritually dead have no say what should or should be about The Church.
2. In fact they have no say on anything.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Jeff]

Sorry bout that,


1. But the spiritually dead have no say what should or should be about The Church.
2. In fact they have no say on anything.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

LOL, usually happens with death


:laugh2::laugh2:

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,




LOL, usually happens with death


:laugh2::laugh2:



1. Always happens to the live spiritual dead people.
2. You don't have to be dead to be spiritual dead.
3. Thats why you must be, "Born Again"



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Jeff]

Sorry bout that,







1. Always happens to the live spiritual dead people.
2. You don't have to be dead to be spiritual dead.
3. Thats why you must be, "Born Again"



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

Hmmmm I will take that under advisement :thumb:

[glockmail]

Lol, inspired by the church? Yeah, inspired by the money that the church was paying them more like. Most artwork owned by the Church is donated.

[krisy]

I just don't understand why non believers are so worried about what believers are doing? And why feel the need to critisize and pick? People like having a place to congregate to worship....so what? The pastor at my church drives a 20 year old car. The church also does A LOT to help in the community. I have never,ever felt pressure to give a lot,or a little.

Why is there an idea that ALL churches have something sinister in mind?

[Noir]

Most artwork owned by the Church is donated.

Kinda flies in the face of what you said earlier


They are only treasures because the Catholic church exists

And just because its donated doesn't mean the church has to keep it, there's nothing wrong with it selling donated items to give to good causes.

[darin]

Lol, inspired by the church? Yeah, inspired by the money that the church was paying them more like.

The churches in the old-testament should have no effect on today's buildings. See, matter of fact, IMO of course, Churches generally exist to sell the idea of Church. Generally.

some of the 'strongest' Christian's I've met in my life spent decades hiding their meetings - regulating to small groups and what-not. Think Soviet Union circa 1960-up.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. Most the time those great artists works were commissioned.
2. They got paid to piant~sculpt.
3. You cant eat free labor, not now, not then.
4. Some of those artworks worth millions.
5. Why would they sell it thou?
6. Its been within the Church for centuries, thats where it belongs now.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Abbey Marie]

I wouldn't say i'm more concerned about physical needs than anything else, the mind is as important as the the body.

However, it seems that the Catholic Faith, Protestant Faith and Islamic Faith all have something striking in common, they want to own paintings, sculptures and grand buildings more than they would rather not own them and use the money from there sale to help people.

Where do you propose that thousands of people should meet to hear their pastor speak, and have Bible classes? On the internet? The concept of fellowship seems lost on some here.

[-Cp]

I just don't understand why non believers are so worried about what believers are doing? And why feel the need to critisize and pick? People like having a place to congregate to worship....so what? The pastor at my church drives a 20 year old car. The church also does A LOT to help in the community. I have never,ever felt pressure to give a lot,or a little.

Why is there an idea that ALL churches have something sinister in mind?

For the same reason folks in the UK get involved w/ OUR (USA) political bickering... as if we give a rip about their input.. :P

[-Cp]

Where do you propose that thousands of people should meet to hear their pastor speak, and have Bible classes? On the internet? The concept of fellowship seems lost on some here.

that's the problem, they shouldn't gather ANYWHERE to "hear a pastor speak"..


Sorry.. but getting together to hear some dude speak, isn't "fellowship"..

[darin]

Sorry bout that,

5. Why would they sell it thou?
6. Its been within the Church for centuries, thats where it belongs now.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


...because the monetary value trumps spiritual value.

[Sitarro]

Well said,

Sadly in reality though you have organisations like the Catholic church sits with its vast collection of priceless art and so forth.

My Mother, whose father died of lock jaw(tetanus) when she was 4, was one of a family of 8 living during the great depression. Her Mother did what she could with the little skills she had to take care of her children. The Catholic church provided them with food and money. Until the day she died at 86 she loved the Catholic Church and all it did for her and her family.

Do you think every museum should sell every priceless work of art they possess and give the money to the poor? To what end?

[Sitarro]

Kinda flies in the face of what you said earlier



And just because its donated doesn't mean the church has to keep it, there's nothing wrong with it selling donated items to give to good causes.

How about all of the property owned by the "Royal Family"? The castles, the art, the Crown Jewels, do you advocate those people having a giant sale to give to the "poor"?

[Sitarro]

Still my favorite piece of art ........
The Pieta by Michelangelo...... just a bit inspiring.

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv299/Sitarro2009/stuff/1pieta1.jpg

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. But when your huge like *The Catholic Church*, your going to have critics.
2. Little three bench churches, with a window unit, and a soap box complain and bicker, how The Catholic Church should give it all away to be without like they are.
3. When all they need to do is come into *The Real Church*, we will make room.
4. You can stay out, but why?
5. A billion dollars a week goes into *The Catholic Church* with over a billion and a half followers.
6. Should that money or treasury be taken by the outsiders, and spent their way?
7. Why stop there, should'nt the followers bank accounts be taken over, and robbed, allowing them just enough to pay their bills?!

8. SITARRO: SO LIFE LIKE, REALLY WONDERFUL PIECE OF ART, LOVE IT!!!!!!!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[DragonStryk72]

If I was a pastor of a "traditional" church, I'd sell the church building and give the money to the families who are loosing their homes. Then I'd tell the members to use their money to pay their own bills first. And if they felt lead, they could help the other families who are in greater need. And lastly, I'd get a job for myself that would help me give to the sheep I care for and not be a parasite to them.

So, what would you do with all the homeless people who depended on your church for their only healthy meals of the day? Or the only safe place they have to sleep at times?

And what of all the people that come in looking for a community that only comes together in a church? What of the AA meetings that occur in your church because it is the most convenient place they can come to meet at?

What of the Boy Scouts that are chartered by your church, because they have nowhere else to meet?

What of the people who come to your church for confession? What of the people who give because they do see the good in it, even if it puts them out a little bit?

[AllieBaba]

Fellowship is gathering with others of like faith, and a church gives people a place to do that.

In doing that, we're able to support each other and help each other, as well as brainstorm ways to help others and share the message more effectively.

[crin63]

I'll grant that there are many faux pastors who are not and were not called of God to be pastors. I'll also grant that anyone who did not give up something pretty substantial or risk their life to go into the pastorate may in all likelihood not be much of a pastor. I'll also grant that some pastors are only in it because its the only thing they could do after wasting their time in Bible College. There are pastors who don't want to be bothered by the little people and have others do the counseling.

On the other hand the pastors and missionaries I am around end up working 7 days a week, 12-20 hours a day tending to needs of their flocks. They gave up lucrative careers and prominent positions to go into the ministry.

They have had their hearts ripped out and left bleeding by people they poured their lives into when those people just up and leave because they could. They have been back stabbed and gutted by so called Christians who just decide its Gods will for them to leave so they can make more money somewhere else. Those people seldom ever just quietly leave, they stir up trouble to justify their leaving.

These pastors are left to pick up the pieces after the so called Christians up and left, leaving a wounded congregation behind and the children with broken hearts because they loved the people that left.

They are shown no appreciation, after the hundreds if not thousands of hours of prayer, counseling and preaching these pastors have poured out for these people.

They have been near starved trying to start and save churches. Living on rice and beans or whatever they were given to eat. Zeroing out their checking accounts every week to keep the ministries going.

They have had their lives threatened for preaching the gospel and some have had actual attempts made on their lives. Only an idiot would propose harming one of these pastors financially. Only a moron complete with a degree would suggest putting one of these pastors to work in a secular job.

[Noir]

Where do you propose that thousands of people should meet to hear their pastor speak, and have Bible classes? On the internet? The concept of fellowship seems lost on some here.

Indeedy, i mean without buildings like this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/images/2007/03/12/01_440x330.jpg

Just where can people meet for prayer and so forth?
Btw the image is of Wells Cathedral which is just down the road from me. No doubt when people meet within it they prey for those who are less well of, lol.

And do tell me, even if you did keep the buildings, what do the countless priceless works of art do to help the pastor or people in bible classes?

[Abbey Marie]

So, what would you do with all the homeless people who depended on your church for their only healthy meals of the day? Or the only safe place they have to sleep at times?

And what of all the people that come in looking for a community that only comes together in a church? What of the AA meetings that occur in your church because it is the most convenient place they can come to meet at?

What of the Boy Scouts that are chartered by your church, because they have nowhere else to meet?

What of the people who come to your church for confession? What of the people who give because they do see the good in it, even if it puts them out a little bit?

Exactly. If all of the charity done by churches suddenly went away, people would be shocked and whole communities devastated.

And to -Cp: Worshipping with people is fellowship, as is the time spent before and after.

[Noir]

For the same reason folks in the UK get involved w/ OUR (USA) political bickering... as if we give a rip about their input.. :P

Jeez, i guess that's what i get for having an interest in politics that goes beyond were my country borders end, how stupid of me. /sark.

[Abbey Marie]

Indeedy, i mean without buildings like this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/images/2007/03/12/01_440x330.jpg

Just where can people meet for prayer and so forth?
Btw the image is of Wells Cathedral which is just down the road from me. No doubt when people meet within it they prey for those who are less well of, lol.

And do tell me, even if you did keep the buildings, what do the countless priceless works of art do to help the pastor or people in bible classes?

Beautiful! Being inside these cathedrals really gives one a sense of awe of our God. However, if this is not to someone's liking, there is no need to go there. The church we went to for many years met in a small strip mall store. God is everywhere. :)

[Noir]

My Mother, whose father died of lock jaw(tetanus) when she was 4, was one of a family of 8 living during the great depression. Her Mother did what she could with the little skills she had to take care of her children. The Catholic church provided them with food and money. Until the day she died at 86 she loved the Catholic Church and all it did for her and her family.

Do you think every museum should sell every priceless work of art they possess and give the money to the poor? To what end?

That is quiet a fantastic story, and something more of the like what the catholic church (and other churches should be doing) (Cue a volume of posts saying 'how do you know what the church should be doing?') Imagine how many more it could help if they sold even a dozen of their priceless works...

As for Museums, they are of a different ilk, firstly they are non-political, non-religious and get kept open purely by donations (atleast they are here in the UK, i dunno about in the US) But the key i am trying to press here is that churches (as in this case the Catholic church) will preach against greed, pride and that you should not value the material as it is transient, however, they will preach this from golden pulpits, beside works of art which would be worth more than any of the churches middle and lower-class followers will make in their life time, or their children's. Hypocrisy, no?

[Noir]

How about all of the property owned by the "Royal Family"? The castles, the art, the Crown Jewels, do you advocate those people having a giant sale to give to the "poor"?

Again this is all paid for in taxes over here (for every £1 spent on the royal family about £6 is generated by tourism) which is then invested in charities such as the princes trust ect.

And again they, like museums, are not an institution that preach divine moral code, as the Catholic church does.

[glockmail]

http://www.terragalleria.com/images/italy/ital7374.jpeg
Piazza San Pietro seen from the Dome. Vatican City, Rome, Lazio, Italy

http://www.terragalleria.com/images/italy/ital7382.jpeg
Piazza San Pietro and Basilica San Pietro (Saint Peter), sunrise.

http://www.terragalleria.com/images/italy/ital7388.jpeg
Baldachino, Bernini's baroque canopy stands above St Peter's tomb.

Truly inspiring! :clap:

[DragonStryk72]

Indeedy, i mean without buildings like this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/images/2007/03/12/01_440x330.jpg

Just where can people meet for prayer and so forth?
Btw the image is of Wells Cathedral which is just down the road from me. No doubt when people meet within it they prey for those who are less well of, lol.

And do tell me, even if you did keep the buildings, what do the countless priceless works of art do to help the pastor or people in bible classes?

You mean the one built in 1180 A.D.? You make it seem like it went up last week. There was also a smaller Wells church built in 705 A.D.. I'm very sorry people got overly enthusiastic with their building. I mean, yeah, it must be a horrible church conspiracy to build beautiful cathedrals, cause there's no other reason anyone would build something so elaborate, like the Eiffel Tower, the three Statues of Liberty, the Empire State Building, the Arc d'Triumphe, or any number of other great works that had nothing to do with religion.

Yes, we got giddy too, and yes, Christians appreciate fine works of art as well. You likely would not have heard nearly as much out of Da Vinci save for his portrait of The Last Supper. Michelangelo? We'd never of heard from him, between the Sistine Chapel, and his statue of David, both religiously based. How many other great artists would you like to destroy?

As it is, the church has in general toned down its behavior over the centuries. Yes, we went too far with the gilding, fine, but seriously, you act like the Church does nothing but that. a number of the "fine works of art" were put together by no names at the time, who got famed off of the work they did for the Church. One of our own, Martin Luther, was the one who founded the Lutherans, he was the one who actually called the old church out on its excess.

This said however, some of the reason that cathedrals were the size they were was because they were house large numbers of people, being the town meeting hall, as well as holding refugees and vagrants at times. Also, many cathedrals and churches doubled as the place to go during emergencies. But sure, we'll let all those people die so you can feel good for having spit on the "evil" christians.

[Noir]

So, what would you do with all the homeless people who depended on your church for their only healthy meals of the day? Or the only safe place they have to sleep at times?

And what of all the people that come in looking for a community that only comes together in a church? What of the AA meetings that occur in your church because it is the most convenient place they can come to meet at?

What of the Boy Scouts that are chartered by your church, because they have nowhere else to meet?

What of the people who come to your church for confession? What of the people who give because they do see the good in it, even if it puts them out a little bit?

You know between the ages of 14 and 18 i use to go to a table top wargaming club, it was held in the middle of town, we rented the hall from a local council, it was £70 for a full day and depending on how many turned up that meant about £2-3 per person. The hall was large, about 25 metres by 10 metres, it came with mens&womens toilets, a kitchen, 3 large seperate build in storage rooms a utility room and a pile of chairs and fold out tables.

So tell me, if the Catholic church were to sell one of its priceless pieces of art, for how many days consecutively do you think they would be able to keep that hall, and another 50 of the same type open across Northern Ireland?

AA meetings can take place there, scouts can meet (infact there is already an afterschool group at the one i went to called the 'cool kids club') bibles lessons can be taught and so on.

but sure why would you want that, when you could have a priceless piece of art hung on a wall somewhere in Italy, right?

[Abbey Marie]

You mean the one built in 1180 A.D.? You make it seem like it went up last week. There was also a smaller Wells church built in 705 A.D.. I'm very sorry people got overly enthusiastic with their building. I mean, yeah, it must be a horrible church conspiracy to build beautiful cathedrals, cause there's no other reason anyone would build something so elaborate, like the Eiffel Tower, the three Statues of Liberty, the Empire State Building, the Arc d'Triumphe, or any number of other great works that had nothing to do with religion.

Yes, we got giddy too, and yes, Christians appreciate fine works of art as well. You likely would not have heard nearly as much out of Da Vinci save for his portrait of The Last Supper. Michelangelo? We'd never of heard from him, between the Sistine Chapel, and his statue of David, both religiously based. How many other great artists would you like to destroy?

As it is, the church has in general toned down its behavior over the centuries. Yes, we went too far with the gilding, fine, but seriously, you act like the Church does nothing but that. a number of the "fine works of art" were put together by no names at the time, who got famed off of the work they did for the Church. One of our own, Martin Luther, was the one who founded the Lutherans, he was the one who actually called the old church out on its excess.

This said however, some of the reason that cathedrals were the size they were was because they were house large numbers of people, being the town meeting hall, as well as holding refugees and vagrants at times. Also, many cathedrals and churches doubled as the place to go during emergencies. But sure, we'll let all those people die so you can feel good for having spit on the "evil" christians.

Also, as burial grounds, i.e., Westminster Abbey.

Hey Noir- I am still hopeful for that private tour :)

[Abbey Marie]

You know between the ages of 14 and 18 i use to go to a table top wargaming club, it was held in the middle of town, we rented the hall from a local council, it was £70 for a full day and depending on how many turned up that meant about £2-3 per person. The hall was large, about 25 metres by 10 metres, it came with mens&womens toilets, a kitchen, 3 large seperate build in storage rooms a utility room and a pile of chairs and fold out tables.

So tell me, if the Catholic church were to sell one of its priceless pieces of art, for how many days consecutively do you think they would be able to keep that hall, and another 50 of the same type open across Northern Ireland?

AA meetings can take place there, scouts can meet (infact there is already an afterschool group at the one i went to called the 'cool kids club') bibles lessons can be taught and so on.

but sure why would you want that, when you could have a priceless piece of art hung on a wall somewhere in Italy, right?

Well, Noir, I have finally seen something that sets you the atheist apart from liberals- they are usually big supporters of art. Or is it just Christian art you oppose?

[Noir]

Beautiful! Being inside these cathedrals really gives one a sense of awe of our God. However, if this is not to someone's liking, there is no need to go there. The church we went to for many years met in a small strip mall store. God is everywhere. :)

The awe of God? Lol, and no doubt walking around the Parthenon really gives you a sense of the awe of Athena, right?

Its not about not going there, its about the fact that the church (in this case the Church of England) would rather spend the money up-keeping these building, rather than on the people who come through its doors.

[DragonStryk72]

That is quiet a fantastic story, and something more of the like what the catholic church (and other churches should be doing) (Cue a volume of posts saying 'how do you know what the church should be doing?') Imagine how many more it could help if they sold even a dozen of their priceless works...

As for Museums, they are of a different ilk, firstly they are non-political, non-religious and get kept open purely by donations (atleast they are here in the UK, i dunno about in the US) But the key i am trying to press here is that churches (as in this case the Catholic church) will preach against greed, pride and that you should not value the material as it is transient, however, they will preach this from golden pulpits, beside works of art which would be worth more than any of the churches middle and lower-class followers will make in their life time, or their children's. Hypocrisy, no?

No. Some of those works depict church history, first off, so until you're doing something yourself to sacrifice for the poor (Yes, you've decided to speak on morality, so include your church of Atheism up there). Actually, the church never specifically said to eschew all worldly goods, that would be buddhists. Yes, the church speaks against greed, and owning for the sake of ownership, but I would argue that works of art have an intrinsic value, wouldn't you?

As to the "golden pulpits", where are these at? I've been to a whole mess of churches around here, in Puerto Rico, Ireland, and various points in between, but I have yet to see a golden pulpits. Almost all of the ones I've seen are wooden. The places that do have significant wealth in them can be counted on one hand, and mostly, that's just the Vatican. No, we didn't decide to shit on the people who made paintings and buildings for us by shilling them out, we're such horrible monsters. Of course, the museum at the Vatican turns over its profits to charity itself, much like your churches in England, but I suppose that's different too.

[Abbey Marie]

The awe of God? Lol, and no doubt walking around the Parthenon really gives you a sense of the awe of Athena, right?

Its not about not going there, its about the fact that the church (in this case the Church of England) would rather spend the money up-keeping these building, rather than on the people who come through its doors.

Since you doubt, why don't you look up how much money the Catholic Church spends on helping the poorest of the poor all over the world? I am not presently Catholic, but I am impressed with all they do. For one very small example: as a child, I had a private Catholic school education for just a meager fee per month, plus a free lunch. This kept me out of the south Bronx public schools, for which I am forever grateful. In light of all the good they do, your focus on a few glorious buildings is silly.

[Abbey Marie]

The awe of God? Lol, and no doubt walking around the Parthenon really gives you a sense of the awe of Athena, right?

Its not about not going there, its about the fact that the church (in this case the Church of England) would rather spend the money up-keeping these building, rather than on the people who come through its doors.

Yes, the awe of God. It is all foolishness to those who will not hear. Sorry for you there. :(

[Noir]

You mean the one built in 1180 A.D.? You make it seem like it went up last week. There was also a smaller Wells church built in 705 A.D.. I'm very sorry people got overly enthusiastic with their building. I mean, yeah, it must be a horrible church conspiracy to build beautiful cathedrals, cause there's no other reason anyone would build something so elaborate, like the Eiffel Tower, the three Statues of Liberty, the Empire State Building, the Arc d'Triumphe, or any number of other great works that had nothing to do with religion.

But as you have said yourself those are non-religious, the churches stand by a moral code, of spiritualism over materialism, inwhich case why not get rid of these transient possessions and focus on helping people?


Yes, we got giddy too, and yes, Christians appreciate fine works of art as well. You likely would not have heard nearly as much out of Da Vinci save for his portrait of The Last Supper. Michelangelo? We'd never of heard from him, between the Sistine Chapel, and his statue of David, both religiously based. How many other great artists would you like to destroy?

Who said anything about destroying art?


As it is, the church has in general toned down its behavior over the centuries. Yes, we went too far with the gilding, fine, but seriously, you act like the Church does nothing but that. a number of the "fine works of art" were put together by no names at the time, who got famed off of the work they did for the Church. One of our own, Martin Luther, was the one who founded the Lutherans, he was the one who actually called the old church out on its excess.

So just because they were "no names at the time" the church should keep the works rather than sell them?


This said however, some of the reason that cathedrals were the size they were was because they were house large numbers of people, being the town meeting hall, as well as holding refugees and vagrants at times. Also, many cathedrals and churches doubled as the place to go during emergencies. But sure, we'll let all those people die so you can feel good for having spit on the "evil" christians.

Well how about rather than spending the money on the upkeep of such a building they build a plain and simple hotel style building with a church area in it, seems reasonable, no?

[Abbey Marie]

Noir, have you read much on Martin Luther? You might like his thoughts on the Catholic Church.

[DragonStryk72]

You know between the ages of 14 and 18 i use to go to a table top wargaming club, it was held in the middle of town, we rented the hall from a local council, it was £70 for a full day and depending on how many turned up that meant about £2-3 per person. The hall was large, about 25 metres by 10 metres, it came with mens&womens toilets, a kitchen, 3 large seperate build in storage rooms a utility room and a pile of chairs and fold out tables.

So tell me, if the Catholic church were to sell one of its priceless pieces of art, for how many days consecutively do you think they would be able to keep that hall, and another 50 of the same type open across Northern Ireland?

AA meetings can take place there, scouts can meet (infact there is already an afterschool group at the one i went to called the 'cool kids club') bibles lessons can be taught and so on.

but sure why would you want that, when you could have a priceless piece of art hung on a wall somewhere in Italy, right?

Why bother? We already have the building space. Do you often burn down your residence to locate a crappier one? You seem to be asking that out of Catholics.

Yes, there are other places that charge for those services, but guess what? The church doesn't, cause homeless people tend not to have much money to throw in toward a place to stay, hence the homeless bit.

They could pay for a separate place for people to meet for AA and Scouts, but then, let's, several million of those places times $70 a day..... $70,000,000 a month, times 12 months.... $960,000,000+ dollars a year, if the landlord doesn't jack the rent (which he will), and that's without paying for any sort of food or lighting costs. One painting? Even if you sold one for millions a piece, you won't keep the buildings going for more than a year or two at that rate. Meanwhile, we have these lovely buildings we already own free and clear that are tax free, meaning we only need to pay utilities, where we can do it for.... we'll call it a few hundred per month, that's raised through a small percentage of the donations, taking care of that, and then we get our budget for programs from the Church, giving us enough to actually do stuff. Yes, sorry, the 900 year old cathedral is still more cost effective than your plan. We help more, and pay out less.

[Noir]

Well, Noir, I have finally seen something that sets you the atheist apart from liberals- they are usually big supporters of art. Or is it just Christian art you oppose?

I am a big supporter of art, however, i am not a fan of hypocrisy.

Also this is nothing specifically to do with Christianity, i have little doubt other religions do the same, i am just not as familiar with them as to be able to say. Infact i do believe the only religions that are not hypocritical (that i know of) would be that of Taoism, and to a lesser extent Buddhism.

[DragonStryk72]

But as you have said yourself those are non-religious, the churches stand by a moral code, of spiritualism over materialism, inwhich case why not get rid of these transient possessions and focus on helping people?

For one, because we do hold church auctions, hold on: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/06/19/church_auction_nets_fortune____for_buyers/
No, we're not just throwing it all out the door, that would be stupid. Instead, we give pieces to museums, such as the statue of David, and collect some money from the museum and exhibit, which is turned around put into... you guessed.... charity!!!

Who said anything about destroying art?
I said destroying artists, which is what you are calling for.Religious artists wouldn't have nearly as much of a chance without the Church buying up their stuff.


So just because they were "no names at the time" the church should keep the works rather than sell them?

Why do you think they're still around? Numerous great works have been lost over the centuries. The Church holds on to its history. I suppose though that you routinely sell off all your possessions (Again, you want to preach morality, live by it yourself first.)

Well how about rather than spending the money on the upkeep of such a building they build a plain and simple hotel style building with a church area in it, seems reasonable, no?

Uh, actually, some churches nowadays do just that, such as the example of a church in a mall. However, in 1180, we didn't have that, so we built independent buildings. Btw, are you even considering the sheer cost of what you're talking about? Hotels are expensive as hell. A "simple" hotel style building has independent water for each and every room, electrical wiring, heating and cooling. Just where are you thinking we're gonna stretch that much money.

Why not use what we already have, it costs a hell of a lot less, opening more money for charity.

[Abbey Marie]

I am a big supporter of art, however, i am not a fan of hypocrisy.

Also this is nothing specifically to do with Christianity, i have little doubt other religions do the same, i am just not as familiar with them as to be able to say. Infact i do believe the only religions that are not hypocritical (that i know of) would be that of Taoism, and to a lesser extent Buddhism.

If you are a big supporter of art, then you would be able to understand the beauty and talent in the art discussed here, and the illogic of selling it or destroying it I have to say, this one of your weaker lines of reasoning. Re-read Dragon's posts here. He lays it all out quite well.

Btw, your "youthful" obsession with hypocrisy is starting to get old. In many topics, you are seeing it where it doesn't exist, and magnifying it where it is a small component practiced by fringe elements. This is getting to the kooky level of conspiracy theories.

And once again, I noticed that you singled out Christians (particularly Catholics) to criticize. Any huge Mosques come across your train of obsessive thought? Synagogues? And an off-hand, "I include all religions in this" doesn't cut it.

[Noir]

No. Some of those works depict church history, first off, so until you're doing something yourself to sacrifice for the poor (Yes, you've decided to speak on morality, so include your church of Atheism up there). Actually, the church never specifically said to eschew all worldly goods, that would be buddhists. Yes, the church speaks against greed, and owning for the sake of ownership, but I would argue that works of art have an intrinsic value, wouldn't you?[quote]

Indeedy art has an intrinsic value, but that value will not change if its being displayed in a church or a Museum.

[quote]As to the "golden pulpits", where are these at? I've been to a whole mess of churches around here, in Puerto Rico, Ireland, and various points in between, but I have yet to see a golden pulpits. Almost all of the ones I've seen are wooden. The places that do have significant wealth in them can be counted on one hand, and mostly, that's just the Vatican. No, we didn't decide to shit on the people who made paintings and buildings for us by shilling them out, we're such horrible monsters. Of course, the museum at the Vatican turns over its profits to charity itself, much like your churches in England, but I suppose that's different too.

Well here's one example i found in 3 seconds from Google.


This is the oldest church in Munich (built around 1200). It has recently been rejuvenated with lots of gold, but the alter is still striking. The alter changes during Lent and a tapestry hides two of the columns. It is magnificent just as well. In the second chapel on the left is a dazzling skeleton bedecked with jewels and gold. One could say that St. Mundita took it with him.


http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/1a/d2/90/the-center-aisle-and.jpg

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/1a/d2/91/the-pulpit-of.jpg

No doubt you think this was a great investment, no?

[Noir]

Since you doubt, why don't you look up how much money the Catholic Church spends on helping the poorest of the poor all over the world? I am not presently Catholic, but I am impressed with all they do. For one very small example: as a child, I had a private Catholic school education for just a meager fee per month, plus a free lunch. This kept me out of the south Bronx public schools, for which I am forever grateful. In light of all the good they do, your focus on a few glorious buildings is silly.

I have no doubt they give vast amounts to charity, however, if you may indulge me with a teaching of Jesus, the women who gives the only 2 coins she has is giving much more than those who will give much more when that is only a fraction of their wealth.

[Noir]

Yes, the awe of God. It is all foolishness to those who will not hear. Sorry for you there. :(

You did not answer my question.

When you stand in an an amazing building that was build for the worship of the Christian God, you are in awe of the Christian God.
Ergo when When you standing in an amazing building that was built for the worship of Athena (the Parthenon) are you in awe of Athena?

[Noir]

Why bother? We already have the building space. Do you often burn down your residence to locate a crappier one? You seem to be asking that out of Catholics.[quote]

No i would not, but then i'm not an institution that values spirituality over materialism, ergo moving to a 'crappier one' should be of little consequence.

[QUOTE]Yes, there are other places that charge for those services, but guess what? The church doesn't, cause homeless people tend not to have much money to throw in toward a place to stay, hence the homeless bit.

And if the church sold their paintings they could help many more of these homeless people.


They could pay for a separate place for people to meet for AA and Scouts, but then, let's, several million of those places times $70 a day..... $70,000,000 a month, times 12 months.... $960,000,000+ dollars a year, if the landlord doesn't jack the rent (which he will), and that's without paying for any sort of food or lighting costs. One painting? Even if you sold one for millions a piece, you won't keep the buildings going for more than a year or two at that rate. Meanwhile, we have these lovely buildings we already own free and clear that are tax free, meaning we only need to pay utilities, where we can do it for.... we'll call it a few hundred per month, that's raised through a small percentage of the donations, taking care of that, and then we get our budget for programs from the Church, giving us enough to actually do stuff. Yes, sorry, the 900 year old cathedral is still more cost effective than your plan. We help more, and pay out less.

Firstly, several million of those places? I dunno how many church halls you think you need, but several million is an overestimate IMO. Given the vast number of perfectly fine buildings you already have, you seem to be thinking that i want every single church to move, that would be daft, just sell the paintings ect and move of of grossly elaborate and needlessly expensive buildings and into smaller, more humble ones.

[Noir]

Noir, have you read much on Martin Luther? You might like his thoughts on the Catholic Church.

I have not, however i would not be surprised if he was against the Church as an institution, given they were supportive of the slave trade.

[Noir]

For one, because we do hold church auctions, hold on: http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...___for_buyers/
No, we're not just throwing it all out the door, that would be stupid. Instead, we give pieces to museums, such as the statue of David, and collect some money from the museum and exhibit, which is turned around put into... you guessed.... charity!!!

Well, some of it goes on charities, some of it goes on new shiny golden pulpits.


I said destroying artists, which is what you are calling for.Religious artists wouldn't have nearly as much of a chance without the Church buying up their stuff.

So...you would rather that the church spent money buy art, to help artists, rather than on the homeless ect?


Why do you think they're still around? Numerous great works have been lost over the centuries. The Church holds on to its history. I suppose though that you routinely sell off all your possessions (Again, you want to preach morality, live by it yourself first.)

No i don't, but then again i don't go round telling people how to live their lives.


Uh, actually, some churches nowadays do just that, such as the example of a church in a mall. However, in 1180, we didn't have that, so we built independent buildings. Btw, are you even considering the sheer cost of what you're talking about? Hotels are expensive as hell. A "simple" hotel style building has independent water for each and every room, electrical wiring, heating and cooling. Just where are you thinking we're gonna stretch that much money.

Why not use what we already have, it costs a hell of a lot less, opening more money for charity

I was using the hotel as an example of a bulding that could carry of the functions of a church without the cost of a cathedral. Take the example i gave eariler, that of wells cathedral, it costs £3000 a day to upkeep. (About £1,095,000 per year, which is about $1,600,000 per year) are you telling me that money could not be better spent?

[Noir]

If you are a big supporter of art, then you would be able to understand the beauty and talent in the art discussed here, and the illogic of selling it or destroying it I have to say, this one of your weaker lines of reasoning. Re-read Dragon's posts here. He lays it all out quite well.

Btw, your "youthful" obsession with hypocrisy is starting to get old. In many topics, you are seeing it where it doesn't exist, and magnifying it where it is a small component practiced by fringe elements. This is getting to the kooky level of conspiracy theories.

And once again, I noticed that you singled out Christians (particularly Catholics) to criticize. Any huge Mosques come across your train of obsessive thought? Synagogues? And an off-hand, "I include all religions in this" doesn't cut it.

What illogical about selling it? And i have said nothing about destroying it.

I'm British. Hypocrisy and irony must be pointed out whenever they raise their ugly heads.

As i mentioned in an earlier post i talk about them because i know them best, the only religions that i know of that do not display this kind of hypocrisy are Taoism and Buddhism, tough again i can not be certain of them. And as way of an aside, the thing which got me thinking about this a few weeks ago (though i did not post a topic about it here) was a Muslim Mosque that is getting built not to far from where i live, it is being build in a very deprived area, and the mosque is much more grand than i would see appropriate. But having talked to local Muslims they claim it is to show how great God is (back to the old 'God is awe inspiring' tosh)

[Abbey Marie]

You did not answer my question.

When you stand in an an amazing building that was build for the worship of the Christian God, you are in awe of the Christian God.
Ergo when When you standing in an amazing building that was built for the worship of Athena (the Parthenon) are you in awe of Athena?

If I believed in Athena, I suppose I would.

Btw, I am in awe of God when I look at the star field, or the ocean, or when a child is born. A cathedral is not the only way. For me, it is one very special way, though. And then there is that word again- fellowship.

So, what puts you in awe? A well-worded atheist treatise?

[Noir]

If I believed in Athena, I suppose I would.

Btw, I am in awe of God when I look at the star field, or the ocean, or when a child is born. A cathedral is not the only way. For me, it is one very special way, though. And then there is that word again- fellowship.

So, what puts you in awe? A well-worded atheist treatise?

Exactly...but instead you stand in awe at the Parthenon because of the human achievement that when into making it.

I am in awe over many things, including wells Cathedral, you do not need religion to be in awe as you have said yourself. Sadly many religious people do not see it that way, as you hinted at with "A well-worded atheist treatise"

[PostmodernProphet]

given they were supportive of the slave trade.

lol......

[Noir]

lol......

Don't lol, see the more you look into this institutionalised religion, the worse it gets, the real killer is the Catholic churches support of Fascism in Europe, its just insane.

[PostmodernProphet]

Don't lol, see the more you look into this institutionalised religion, the worse it gets, the real killer is the Catholic churches support of Fascism in Europe, its just insane.

I will lol all I want......document the Church's support of slavery, please......I will match you with the origins of the abolition movement.....from the Church.....

[glockmail]

You did not answer my question.

When you stand in an an amazing building that was build for the worship of the Christian God, you are in awe of the Christian God.
Ergo when When you standing in an amazing building that was built for the worship of Athena (the Parthenon) are you in awe of Athena?

No. I'm amazed at the architecture of ancient people who hadn't the benefit of knowledge that I have. :coffee:

[Noir]

I will lol all I want......document the Church's support of slavery, please......I will match you with the origins of the abolition movement.....from the Church.....

Yeah thats the thing about the church, it just goes with the trends of the day, i mean, the sent hitler praise and "warmest congratulations" on his birthday, for they knew that in him, and general Franco and so forth, they had an Ally.

But no doubt you can point to something else which 'cancels out' the churches support for Fascism, yes?

[Noir]

No. I'm amazed at the architecture of ancient people who hadn't the benefit of knowledge that I have. :coffee:

I can almost feel the smarm of your arrogance dripping off of you, quite revolting.

[glockmail]

I can almost feel the smarm of your arrogance dripping off of you, quite revolting. Awesome, here's some more. :coffee:

[Noir]

Awesome, here's some more. :coffee:

Wait what, are you trying to troll? :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Do not let it become you sir, you're better than that.

[BoogyMan]

I wouldn't say i'm more concerned about physical needs than anything else, the mind is as important as the the body.

However, it seems that the Catholic Faith, Protestant Faith and Islamic Faith all have something striking in common, they want to own paintings, sculptures and grand buildings more than they would rather not own them and use the money from there sale to help people.

What makes you think the work of the church is to provide for the physical needs of the world? That is NOT what the church was setup to do.

There is no reason for the church to have masses of treasure like the Catholic church does and there is no instruction to do so in the scriptures, but there is also no instruction to the church to feed the world. There IS instruction to individuals to do good unto others and help those in need.

Feeding the world is not a work of the church.

[PostmodernProphet]

Yeah thats the thing about the church, it just goes with the trends of the day, i mean, the sent hitler praise and "warmest congratulations" on his birthday, for they knew that in him, and general Franco and so forth, they had an Ally.

But no doubt you can point to something else which 'cancels out' the churches support for Fascism, yes?

come on, Noir....I know you hate Christianity, but that's no excuse to act like an idiot.....oh, surprise, those folks in the Church who were surrounded by Fascists with armies and guns didn't speak out against them!.....\

I suppose the war would have ended sooner if the Catholics in America hadn't refused to enlist in the army?....oh, wait.....that didn't happen did it.....I guess for atheists, the "trend for the day" is spouting ignorance......

[glockmail]

Wait what, are you trying to troll? :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Do not let it become you sir, you're better than that. How ironic, albeit without the last part.

[PostmodernProphet]

meanwhile, Noir, it didn't slip my notice that when I asked you to document your claim about the church and slavery that you tried to change the subject.....

I knew you wouldn't be able to do it, but at least you could have been honest enough to admit it.....

[PostmodernProphet]

on the issue of Fascism....


The opposition of many adherents of traditional religions to Nazism is only one side of the issue.[8] Within the Lutheran Churches in Germany, the most prominent members of the Bekennende Kirche (Confessing Church), Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, opposed Nazism. They were, however, (as of 1932) in the minority within the Protestant church bodies in Germany, compared to the Deutsche Christen (German Christians), who supported National Socialism and cooperated with the Nazis. But in 1933, a number of Deutsche Christen left the movement after a November speech by Reinhold Krause that urged, among other things, the rejection of the Bible as Jewish superstition.[9] However, even the "Confessing Church made frequent declarations of loyalty to Hitler".[10] The resistance of the churches against the Nazis was the longest lasting and most bitter of any German institution; the Nazis weakened the churches' resistance from within and a majority of clergy supported National Socialism, even though thousands of clergy were sent to concentration camps.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany


During the 1930s Hitler tried to nationalize Germany's churches (German Christian), with restrictions allowing only German membership. Some Protestants resisted by forming the Confessing Church.


After a failed assassination on Hitler's life in 1943 which involved Martin Niemöller, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and other elements of the Confessing Church (a Protestant organisation), Hitler ordered the arrest of Protestant, mainly Lutheran clergy. Catholic clergy were also suppressed if they spoke out against the régime. Dachau had a special "priest block." Of the 2720 priests (among them 2579 Catholic) held in Dachau, 1034 did not survive the camp. The majority were Polish (1780), of whom 868 died in Dachau.

[PostmodernProphet]

In July of 1933, the Vatican signed an agreement with Germany called the Reichskonkordat, partly in an effort to stop Nazi persecution of Catholic institutions.[7][8] However, the Vatican's goals in signing the concordat were not met because the Nazis almost immediately began to violate its provisions. Physical violence was inflicted against Catholic leaders as early as 1934 and had come to be "open and blatant" by the end of 1936. It was in the context of this persecution that Pope Pius XI issued the 1937 encyclical Mit brennender Sorge.[3][7][9][10] Drafted by the future Pope Pius XII[11] and read from the pulpits of all German Catholic churches, it criticized Hitler,[3][4][5] detailed Nazi crimes[3][4][5] and condemned Nazi ideology.[2][3][4][5][12] Bokenkotter characterized it as the "first great official public document to dare to confront and criticize Nazism" and "one of the greatest such condemnations ever issued by the Vatican."[4][5][12][13] "The impact of the encyclical was immense"[13] and the "infuriated" Nazis increased their persecution of Catholics and the Church[14] by initiating a "long series" of persecution of Catholic clergy and other measures.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge

[glockmail]

meanwhile, Noir, it didn't slip my notice that when I asked you to document your claim about the church and slavery that you tried to change the subject.....

I knew you wouldn't be able to do it, but at least you could have been honest enough to admit it..... An honest atheist? Isn't that an oxymoron?

[PostmodernProphet]

The modern American abolition movement emerged in the early 1830s as a by-product of religious revivalism popularly known as the Second Great Awakening. Revivalistic tenets led abolitionists to see slavery as the product of personal sin and to demand emancipation as the price of repentance. Abolitionists recognized that slavery received moral support from racial prejudice, and they lobbied to overturn the nation�s racially discriminatory practices.
http://americanabolitionist.liberalarts.iupui.edu/brief.htm


housands of women also braved public disapproval to participate in the early abolitionist campaign. Often veterans of moral reform activities, these women were inspired by religious principles and republican ideology.

[PostmodernProphet]

Jonathan Edwards, Jr., (1745-1801), was, like his more famous father, a Congregationalist minister. He served at the White Haven Church in New Haven, Connecticut, and later became president of Union College in Schenectady, New York. In this sermon, Edwards presented forceful arguments against ten common pro-slavery positions. One of the earliest anti-slavery publications in the Library of Congress collections, the sermon demonstrates the existence of strong anti-slavery feeling in the early days of the republic.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/african/afam005.html

[Noir]

My reference to the Catholic Church and Nazism/Fascism came about through a radio interview i have heard from Christopher Hitchens, as an extract from his book 'God is not Great' However i confess i have not yet read the book, and when i am better read on the topic i shall return to it.

[PostmodernProphet]

My reference to the Catholic Church and Nazism/Fascism came about through a radio interview i have heard from Christopher Hitchens, as an extract from his book 'God is not Great' However i confess i have not yet read the book, and when i am better read on the topic i shall return to it.

I see.....you took the word of an atheist?....foolish choice.....

[Noir]

I see.....you took the word of an atheist?....foolish choice.....


But i'm a foolish atheist myself, dur, :thumb: