Jesus wants to kick your ass

[-Cp]

By Kameron Messmer

I know this is a dividing issue and I don't want it to be. Especially not with us. This is not to cause controversy or fights. These are my thoughts and ramblings. Have whatever opinion you have come to. This is just my way of getting my thoughts together.


I was pondering the Old Testament God vs. the New Testament Jesus the other day. The question is often brought up by those brave enough to think for themselves. Most Christians I run into have no problems reconciling the two, but as someone who has issues with violence I have to ask this question. I am not judging other Christians, it just always seemed like they had little to no issue with things from the Old Testament like God sanctioned war, or wiping out women and children, or plagues and famines. Even Modern day wars and capital punishment don’t raise an eyebrow. I think it is because they see the Old Testament God as the same as Jesus. I know that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, but oddly enough the actual quote is Jesus Christ is the same… but to recognize the hypothetical point it does say in Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change”. We as Christians usually believe Christ is God, but we also believe that The Trinity is in Three Persons. At least that is how the hymn goes… My point is, if Jesus and the Father are different persons and they individually don’t change maybe everything fits together. The Father can be the loving yet sometimes vengeful God while Jesus is usually more loving and calm. Except for when the Pharisees piss him off…

Not to theorize too much, but what if God the Father is the one who has to be “the bad guy” sometimes? He is the father who has to punish humanity when it colors on the walls with markers. Maybe Jesus is the one to show the love and mercy. Kind of like parents. Sometimes my dad showed love, but often he was the one to show the discipline when I broke the exercise bike. I swear it was an accident. My mom on the other hand usually was not the disciplinarian. She would say things like, “You just wait till your father comes home!” but normally showed love and affection. I am not saying this is how it really is; I am really just spit balling. I am probably re constituting a heresy I don’t know the name of… I digress.

I have always heard that Jesus is the reflection of the Fathers’ heart. I was thinking of all the things God did in the Old Testament that doesn’t line up with Jesus’ Modus operandi. Jesus was forgiving to people who broke the Fathers rules. The ones They came up with. The very same rules in the very same scriptures were being broken and when the older children see it and tattle, Jesus says, “It’s ok. I forgive you”. There seems to be a disconnect. The rules are set, the Father enforces them with sometimes deadly consequences, and then Jesus comes and undoes everything. The Father commands His people to wipe out men, women, children and animals. Kill everything. Jesus comes and says, “Forgive your enemies”, “Turn the other cheek”, and “He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”.

I’ve heard the theory that we don’t know God’s plan… well that’s not the theory. I know we don’t know God’s plan, but maybe from our little perspective we can’t see what the death of thousands is doing. God knows what He is doing, but back to the question, what on earth was Jesus doing? Jesus turns God and His rules on their ear. God is known to be vengeful, wrathful, and all around guy you don’t want to piss off. Jesus is forgiving, loving, and peaceful.

Then something popped in my head.

Back in Old Testament, the original “Back in the day”, The Jews were the chosen people. Any way you slice it, God was playing favorites. Not to say there was not grace for gentiles, but it seems He had a little pet nation. We are all children of Adam, and children of God, but maybe back in the “day” things worked differently. The gentiles weren’t “His people” and maybe they were probably a great danger to them at the time, so God said to wipe them out. I am not a scholar, and haven’t studied this intensely so don’t write me and point out where God had the Jews travel out of their way to wipe out a city. Again, spit balling.

So if God wasn’t so picky on who died and how, why the change? Why would Jesus change the rules mid-game? Then I thought “Jesus changed the rules because of Jesus!”

Follow me here, maybe the Jews were the chosen people and God’s instrument to kill any one God said to. Why did it matter? God’s world, God’s people, God’s choice. Seems strict, but I don’t have a vote. Then when Jesus died, He gave everyone the chance to be the chosen people. We are all God’s people again. So instead of being “in” or “out” with God, we are all “in”. Jesus is the person who let us in the family. God doesn’t kill like that anymore because we are all His children.

Then I come to the book of Revelation, where Jesus comes back and kicks some ass. Violence, Blood up to the bridles etc. What happened to the prince of Peace? He is only calm for a little while? Is He still pissed about the crucifixion thing? He seemed pretty forgiving when He was up there. Something doesn’t add up. Maybe the preterists are right and Revelation has already happened. Maybe we really don’t understand what Revelations is about, that’s a stretch, right? Revelations? Confusing? Nah!

So which God do we choose? Killy Mcgee? Or the “Prince of Peace”?

Mark Driscoll was quoted as saying “In Revelation, Jesus is a prize-fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed. That is the guy I can worship. I cannot worship the hippie, diaper, halo Christ because I cannot worship a guy I can beat up.”
I disagree with the image Christians like Driscoll paint Jesus as. I don’t think He was a hippy, or weak, or a doormat. I am not advocating a passive Jesus or being passive. Jesus flipped tables, cursed people out, gave mobs the slip, and outsmarted scholars at their own game, but also was gentle, meek, mild, forgiving, grace filled and loving. I am not saying Jesus is “a limp-wrist hippie in a dress with a lot of product in His hair, who drank decaf and made pithy Zen statements about life while shopping for the perfect pair of shoes.” to complete the Driscoll quote. I am saying He taught peace, love and forgiveness, not force, violence and coercion.

The arguments from some Christians concerning pacifism usually have something to do with someone raping and murdering your family while you go get him a coffee. Or they bring up the verse where Jesus asks “Do we have any swords?” Ironically after that verse Jesus is arrested and Peter cuts off the servant’s ear. Maybe Jesus knew Peter would do this so Jesus could show compassion and mercy even to His attackers. Maybe he set peter up. Maybe He wanted Peter to cut off the guy’s ear to show what you are to do to enemies…Love them.

Even the moment where Jesus could show His right handed power, He lets them take him and kill Him forgiving all the way.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand why some people can’t get on the pacifism bandwagon. Maybe bandwagon is the wrong term. Anyways, I can see why a man would rip an attackers head off if their family was involved. I can’t say I wouldn’t do the same. I should hope I would find a more creative way than breaking their neck or shooting them. I often come up with creative ways to handle a hypothetical situation sans violence. I remember one time I walked my wife, then girl friend home. A drunk man started walking towards her as I was walking away. When I realized he was walking towards her I ran. I ran like hell towards her. I had no idea what I would do when I got there, but he saw this crazy guy with dreads running towards him. He stumbled off.

Again, I can’t say what I would do in any situation. I believe I have grace for whatever may happen, but that is not to say I want to live in a mindset of violence being the answer. I don’t want to live by the sword, even in my head. This is an issue I struggle with all the time in a world where violence is the answer. I know these words don’t have answers, but a rambling of questions and thoughts. ..Take what you will…

Personally, I can’t seem to wrap my head around Christians who think Jesus would condone violence when He lived a life of peace. Again I don’t think Jesus lived a wimpy doormat life, but a life that begged for you to live with Him. Verses a life that forced you to obey. But then again maybe Jesus is coming back like Driscoll said. Jesus is coming. And He wants to kick your ass…

[HogTrash]

Remember that the Bible was written by men according to the words of God that came to them in dreams...supposedly.

I believe it's possible to have faith in God without having faith in the men whose responsibility it was to author his book.

[darin]

^^ there are people who worship the Bible more than they worship God, but as a point of order, a large amount of the Bible was simply recorded history of events - not dreams or visions.

[revelarts]

You've said a lot...
I'm not going to comment on most of it or the parts that you seem most concerned about.

except to say I don't see how Christians can promote torture. when NO WHERE in the bible is it advocated in any way.

But i just don't see the 2 sides of GOD when you really read the whole bible.

you mentioned yourself the book of revelations that's Jesus.
the old testament God dealt with a lot of stuff over centuries and on a nationals level. whereas Jesus dealt with things on a more personal level over 3 years.

In the Old testament God forgave all the time. and had mercy all the time as well. but it doesn't get much promotion as the darker bits that took place primarily in 4 or 5 places.

on the mercy side
Jonah. Nineveh the Bible says it was an exceedingly wicked city but they repented and they weren't wiped out. Jonah wasn't to happy about it.

Ahab the husband of Jezabel repented for a while and got mercy for a while.
One of Israel's most evil kings -who's name I can't remember- Repented at the end of his life as well and received mercy.

Even Sodom and Gamorah had a chance to be saved if there had been 10 decent folks, God would have spared the whole place.

Naman the Syrian was shown mercy and healed from leprosy.


New testament your mentioned that Jesus didn't kill but forgave and turned the other check AND he turned over tables and

in the book of Acts, NEW Testament, God -Jesus- killed a roman official for not giving God the glory. Blinded a magician, and Killed a Christian for lying to Peter about his offering.

Again, the book of Acts covers less than 40 yrs and the old testament covers 1000s of years from the beginning.

Also some folks don't like dispensations but I think there is something to idea that God set up different systems over time which happen to prove that people will fail under every system. I better not go there..

But anyway. Take a broader look for mercy in the old testament and you'll find it take a fuller look at God's firmness in the New testament and you'll find it.

God has never been "vengeful" in the harsh sense that people use it.

[Noir]

"God has never been "vengeful" in the harsh sense that people use it."

...what about the bit where he murdered everything on earth, except for one family, 2 of each animal, and all the fish (apparently they hadn't done anythig wrong)

there is no doubt the god of the OT and NT are very different indeed, and we may only hope the God of the OT does not exist.

[revelarts]

"God has never been "vengeful" in the harsh sense that people use it."

...what about the bit where he murdered everything on earth, except for one family, 2 of each animal, and all the fish (apparently they hadn't done anythig wrong)

there is no doubt the god of the OT and NT are very different indeed, and we may only hope the God of the OT does not exist.

did read what i wrote? have you read the book of revelations? you might want to be concerned the the God of the that book exist, it's talking about the future not the past.

[Noir]

did read what i wrote? have you read the book of revelations? you might want to be concerned the the God of the that book exist, it's talking about the future not the past.

Yes I did, do you not think that the flood was a vengeful act if it took place?
No I have not read the book.
I am no more concerned of the God of the NT as I am that of Hadaes, Allah, or the great JuJu.
And you went into your post to talk about the past, so I thought I'd question you on one part of the past you did not cover in your post.

[revelarts]

This is Jesus, of Revelations 19


11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Sound much different than God cleansing the earth with a flood, etc..

The book of revelation was penned by the same Apostle who wrote.
"God is love"


He that does not love, does not know God; for God is love.
1st John 4:8



And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1st John 4:16

and the well known words of Jesus .John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

and the lest well known words of Jesus shortly following 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Obviously the apostle Peter didn't think God had changed even though he walked with Jesus.

he penned , 2nd Peter 2

....4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men

8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),

9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

Same as Old testament a few are saved and other sadly are "under punishment for the day of judgment"

Old and new testaments are seamless in that message.

Just to put a point on the complete view of Jesus
He said in Luke 12

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Jesus Revelations 1

17.... Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[-Cp]

This is Jesus, of Revelations 19



Sound much different than God cleansing the earth with a flood, etc..

The book of revelation was penned by the same Apostle who wrote.
"God is love"




And your point is?? ?

[PostmodernProphet]

Back in Old Testament, the original “Back in the day”, The Jews were the chosen people. Any way you slice it, God was playing favorites. Not to say there was not grace for gentiles, but it seems He had a little pet nation. We are all children of Adam, and children of God, but maybe back in the “day” things worked differently. The gentiles weren’t “His people” and maybe they were probably a great danger to them at the time, so God said to wipe them out. I am not a scholar, and haven’t studied this intensely so don’t write me and point out where God had the Jews travel out of their way to wipe out a city. Again, spit balling.


the author of the OP missed a number of important points.....for example Abraham was one of several who worshipped YHWH, Genesis refers to at least two others of that era who were "high priests" of God....for another example, several of the books of the Bible referred to as the "lesser prophets" are directed to nations other than Israel.....

but most importantly he has failed to see that God did not employ Israel as his pet, but as his tool......he told Abraham that he was blessed to be a blessing upon all the nations of the earth......he told Moses that he gave them the law so that all the nations of the earth would know what a just God he was.....he told them in Isaiah that he was sending them into captivity so the world would know what happens to the disobedient.....and finally, it was through them that Jesus was incarnated.....

[crin63]

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. The New Testament says that Jesus in His person is the creator and sustainer of the world, not God the Father. When God appeared to men in the Old Testament it was Jesus who appeared to them, not God the Father because no man hath seen the Father except Jesus.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[revelarts]

And your point is?? ?

While you seem to want to make a distinction between Bad Old T God and a kind and forgiving Jesus God of the New T.
The writer of the the most loving New T books, who walked with Jesus and had the supernatural contact with Jesus, did not share your view.

So I think you might want to reexamine you're premise.

[-Cp]

While you seem to want to make a distinction between Bad Old T God and a kind and forgiving Jesus God of the New T.
The writer of the the most loving New T books, who walked with Jesus and had the supernatural contact with Jesus, did not share your view.

So I think you might want to reexamine you're premise.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where John did not share my view...

[revelarts]

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where John did not share my view...

really? you're kidding right?


My point is, if Jesus and the Father are different persons and they individually don’t change maybe everything fits together. The Father can be the loving yet sometimes vengeful God while Jesus is usually more loving and calm. Except for when the Pharisees piss him off…

...but what if God the Father is the one who has to be “the bad guy” sometimes? He is the father who has to punish humanity when it colors on the walls with markers. Maybe Jesus is the one to show the love and mercy.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Revelations 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and U]his name is called The Word of God.[/U]
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Jesus Revelations 1:17-18
... Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

can you see the difference?





....Kind of like parents. Sometimes my dad showed love, but often he was the one to show the discipline when I broke the exercise bike. I swear it was an accident. My mom on the other hand usually was not the disciplinarian. She would say things like, “You just wait till your father comes home!” but normally showed love and affection. I am not saying this is how it really is; I am really just spit balling. I am probably re constituting a heresy I don’t know the name of… I digress.

I have always heard that Jesus is the reflection of the Fathers’ heart. I was thinking of all the things God did in the Old Testament that doesn’t line up with Jesus’ Modus operandi. Jesus was forgiving to people who broke the Fathers rules. The ones They came up with. The very same rules in the very same scriptures were being broken and when the older children see it and tattle, Jesus says, “It’s ok. I forgive you”. There seems to be a disconnect. The rules are set, the Father enforces them with sometimes deadly consequences, and then Jesus comes and undoes everything. The Father commands His people to wipe out men, women, children and animals. Kill everything. Jesus comes and says, “Forgive your enemies”, “Turn the other cheek”, and “He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”.


While God did in the Old testament Order peoples punished to the point of death on several occasions. As many liberals pointed out so well during the Clinton administration, God doesn't alway meet out the decreed punishments on sinners, even in the old testament. David committed adultery and murder, his punishment should have been death however he was forgiven and spared. "go and sin no more." as it were. God gave people and nations chance after chance in the OLD testament. I'll mention again the fact that God during the Old contract was working was over 1000s of years and Jesus's earth bound ministry was about 3. That with Israel he was dealing often on a national or city state level and the Jesus was dealing on a more personal level. I'm not sure how to say it any better. I hope I'm being clear. The Father isn't a Bad cop to Jesus's good cop. they are both 1 loving and severe.

[-Cp]

really? you're kidding right?


Revelations 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and U]his name is called The Word of God.[/U]
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Jesus Revelations 1:17-18
... Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

can you see the difference?




That's great that you know how to quote passages out of the most metaphorically-written book in the Bible, Revelation.

You keep doing that and instead, I'll look to Christ's own actions while he was here.

[revelarts]

That's great that you know how to quote passages out of the most metaphorically-written book in the Bible, Revelation.

You keep doing that and instead, I'll look to Christ's own actions while he was here.

Written by John.


Metaphors... hmm
and Call the birds to a feast on kings and armies after a battle might be a metaphor of ...well... birds feasting on leaders and armies. umm after a battle...
maybe

Some people want to go off on tangents with the book of revelations like they are interpreting a dream or something.
"oh you had a dream about flying that really means SEX."
"OK so what does it mean when You have a dream about sex?"

sure some part are amazing illustrations but some it's really not to hard.

And your just messing around now dude.

[PostmodernProphet]

You keep doing that and instead, I'll look to Christ's own actions while he was here.

John 8
54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.