Terrorist watch list, are you on it? [Archive] - Debate Policy

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revelarts

04-07-2010, 03:26 PM

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/04/07/us/07watch_CA0/07watch_CA0-articleInline.jpg
...Erich Scherfen, a Persian Gulf war veteran and a pilot from Pennsylvania, was on a watch list.
Erich Scherfen converted to Islam and married a Pakistani-born woman, Rubina Tureen.

Ensnared by Error on Growing U.S. Watch List
By MIKE McINTIRE
Published: April 6, 2010

Rahinah Ibrahim, a Stanford University doctoral student, arrived at San Francisco International Airport with her 14-year-old daughter for a 9 a.m. flight home to Malaysia. She asked for a wheelchair, having recently had a hysterectomy.

Instead, when a ticket agent found her name on the no-fly list, Ms. Ibrahim was handcuffed, searched and jailed amid a flurry of phone calls involving the local police, the F.B.I. and the Department of Homeland Security. Two hours after her flight left, Ms. Ibrahim was released without explanation. She flew to Malaysia the next day.

But when she tried to return to the United States, she discovered that her visa had been revoked. And when she complained that she did not belong on a terrorist watch list, the government’s response came a year later in a form letter saying only that her case had been reviewed and that any changes warranted had been made.

Every year, thousands of people find themselves caught up in the government’s terrorist screening process. Some are legitimate targets of concern, others are victims of errors in judgment or simple mistaken identity.

Either way, their numbers are likely to rise as the Obama administration recalibrates the standards for identifying potential terrorists, in response to intelligence failures that let a would-be bomber fly to Detroit from Amsterdam last Christmas. On Friday, the administration altered rules for identifying which passengers flying to the United States should face extra scrutiny at the gate. And it is reviewing ways to make it easier to place suspects on the watch list.

“The entire federal government is leaning very far forward on putting people on lists,” Russell E. Travers, a deputy director of the National Counterterrorism Center, said at a recent Senate hearing. Before the attempted attack on Christmas, Mr. Travers said, “I never had anybody tell me that the list was too small.”

Now, he added, “It’s getting bigger, and it will get even bigger.”....

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/us/07watch.html?hp

revelarts

04-07-2010, 05:52 PM

-------------

Bloated watch lists waste screeners' time and divert their energies from looking for true terrorists. In a report from the Virginia Fusion Center leaked in April 2009, it was revealed that at least 414 encounters between suspected al-Qa’ida members and law enforcement officials were documented in the Commonwealth in 2007. Few believe there are actually more than 400 al-Qa’ida members in Virginia; more likely there were just 400+ false alarms related to bad watch list data -- which wasted innocent Virginians’ time and distracted law enforcement from their mission.

http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/counterrorism/faqs.htm
From the FBI web site
Who gets included in the TSDB?
Per HSPD-6, only individuals who are known or reasonably suspected to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism are included in the TSDB.

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the U.S. GOv't has listed as Suspected terrorist
Marine Staff Sgt. Daniel Brown was blocked from flying while on his way home from an 8-month deployment in Iraq. He was listed as a suspected terrorist due to a previous incident in which gunpowder was detected on his boots, most likely a residue of a previous tour in Iraq.

John William Anderson, age 6; problems flying.
Among those caught up by the no-fly list are many infants and small children.

Sister Glenn Anne McPhee, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' secretary for education. Sister McPhee sought redress and removal from the watch list for nine months in 2004 and 2005 and it wasn't until she was able to elicit help from White House connections (Karl Rove) that DHS addressed her problem.

Michelle Green, Master Sergeant, U.S. Air Force . (

Saddam Hussein. Although he was imprisoned in Baghdad and in U.S. custody at the time, his name was also found in the database obtained by 60 Minutes. Again, this accomplishes nothing except ensnaring the innocent, diluting the list, and wasting the time of security workers.

Dead 9/11 Hijackers. While certainly these were individuals we all wish had been watched out for, they are, in fact, dead. Yet, the names of 14 of the 19 hijackers from 9/11 were on a copy of the list obtained by 60 Minutes . More evidence that the list is poorly maintained and full of junk names that will only serve to ensnare the innocent.

http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/watch-lists

Monkeybone

04-08-2010, 06:38 AM

when this all was really starting up, my 16 month old cousin was on it.

revelarts

04-08-2010, 07:10 AM

its crazy,

And Rahm Emanuel says if you are on No Fly List, No Gun!

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revelarts

04-08-2010, 07:13 AM

CSM

04-08-2010, 07:20 AM

Interesting that Rahmy-boy thinks you lose ALL rights as a US citizen if your name is on the list. No trial, no Miranda rights, no nothing. This administration really does despise the Constitution of the United States of America.

CSM

04-08-2010, 07:24 AM

revelarts

04-08-2010, 08:02 AM

She is obviously a threat to Democracy ... she should be on the list!

Not sure if your joking or not but you'd be surprised, she's beginning to come around to ideas of freedom pretty strong. she beginning to understand that the left has been wrong on soooo many issues. She now knows that gov'ts make promises to get more power/control not necessarily to "help" the people. She's not an Obama supporter anymore. She's still really left on a lot of things, but she realizes now that if the gov't gives it all, the gov't can also take it all away. And that means from her or anyone on the left or right who's not in step with it.

She's doing a lot of good work opening peoples eyes to the unconstitutional issues of Obama and Bush.

revelarts

04-08-2010, 08:13 AM

CSM

04-08-2010, 08:24 AM

Not sure if your joking or not but you'd be surprised, she's beginning to come around to ideas of freedom pretty strong. she beginning to understand that the left has been wrong on soooo many issues. She now knows that gov'ts make promises to get more power/control not necessarily to "help" the people. She's not an Obama supporter anymore. She's still really left on a lot of things, but she realizes now that if the gov't gives it all, the gov't can also take it all away. And that means from her or anyone on the left or right who's not in step with it.

She's doing a lot of good work opening peoples eyes to the unconstitutional issues of Obama and Bush.

Ignoring the Constitution goes further back than Obama/Bush. It is just more blatant now; as if it is somehow more palatable. BTW, I was joking.

revelarts

04-08-2010, 09:32 PM

Ignoring the Constitution goes further back than Obama/Bush. It is just more blatant now; as if it is somehow more palatable....

sadly Very true

BTW, I was joking.

cool

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revelarts

04-19-2010, 04:01 PM

Missed this one ,
Former Presidential and VP candidates
John McCain and Joe Lieberman
Say that anyone's a terrorists that the gov't SAYS is a terrorist.

with a bill they've co-sponsored
“The Enemy Belligerent Interrogation, Detention and Prosecution Act of 2010.”

...The bill's definition of “enemy belligerent” could be interpreted to mean a number of things. The bill tells us (Sec. 6, paragraph 9): “The term 'unprivileged enemy belligerent' means an individual … who (a) has engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners; (b) has purposely and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners; or (c) was a part of al Qaeda at the time of capture.” Note the or in that sentence (italics added). It is very important. That one word logically implies that an individual does not have to be a member of al-Qaeda to be swept up in this. Anyone who fits those other provisions, whatever they mean, could be detained under this Act. The level of potential for abuse here depends on how far it is possible to stretch the meanings of words and phrases such as engaged in hostilities or purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States.

A person may become a “high-value detainee” if he or she “meets the criteria for treatment as such established in the regulations required by subsection (d).” These regulations are:

• The “potential threat” the person poses for an attack on civilians or civilian facilities. Questions: What is meant by a potential threat? How much potential is required? Does potential involve actions, or just speech within an assembly of dissenting voices which someone in government has interpreted as a threat?

• The “potential threat” the person poses to U.S. military personnel or facilities. The same questions apply.

• The “potential intelligence” value of the individual. See below.

• “Membership in al Qaeda or in a terrorist group affiliated with al Qaeda.”

• “Such other matters as the President considers appropriate.”

This last, of course, could mean anything any President wants it to mean, whether it is Obama or someone else sitting in the Oval Office in the future. This makes the meaning high-value detainee completely open-ended!

Moreover, according to this Act, individuals need only be “suspected” of commission of “hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners.”

“Suspected”? Consider Jose Padilla, who was held for between three and a half and four years in solitary confinement in a military institution without explicit charges. He wasn't a saint, but he was a U.S. citizen whose rights under the Constitution became meaningless once President Bush declared him an "enemy combatant." His is just the most visible case. It isn't exactly as if the federal government lacks a precedent for trashing the Constitution and habeas corpus.

Finally, “The President shall submit the regulations and guidance required by this subsection to the appropriate committees of Congress not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.” In other words, this bill can become law prior to the actual “regulations and guidance” being worked out and put into place. Again, those dotting the i's and crossing the t's will have essentially free rein.

This bill provides the potential for a wholesale assault on any dissenting group’s once-Constitutionally protected freedoms in America, should Obama or a future chief executive decide that this group’s exercise of these freedoms does too much to challenge unbridled power. We should note that the problem is not that there is a specific plan in motion to deprive law-abiding U.S. citizens from exercising their rights to free speech, assembly, and so on; bills such as this one open the door for such plans to be put in motion....

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/congress/3090-mccain-lieberman-bill

HogTrash

04-19-2010, 06:10 PM

If you only watch 1 watch this one

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/K-FIEd_CekM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/K-FIEd_CekM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>I agree with Ms Wolf that the government is over-stepping it's bounds, but she is obviously a liberal democrat and only complained about leftwing people whose rights had been violated.

I wonder If she complained about the Clinton Administration which was notorious for using the IRS to investigate their enemies or the Obama administration which is now putting rightwingers on the new 'watch list'?

revelarts

04-19-2010, 08:44 PM

I agree with Ms Wolf that the government is over-stepping it's bounds, but she is obviously a liberal democrat and only complained about leftwing people whose rights had been violated.

I wonder If she complained about the Clinton Administration which was notorious for using the IRS to investigate their enemies or the Obama administration which is now putting rightwingers on the new 'watch list'?

She worked for the Bill Clintons Campaign I think. i don't think she had any complaints. No Doubt , your absolutely right, she's left wing, a far left feminist ring leader no less.
But, as I mentioned, to CSM she has jump ship a little and now sees the overall problem of Big gov't now -LEFT or RIGHT- and what the framers where talking about with small gov't, right to bear arms, militia, no standing armies, check and balances, etc.. I doubt she'll ever be a republican or even a libertarian but I doubt she'll ever endorses the U.N. take over or world gov't..

And yes she has complained about Obama and is pointing out his slick lies about going back to the constitution while doing the exact same unconstitutional crapola that Bush did and more. She was fooled into voting for him but she's not starry a eye Obamabot any more. Shes starting to see the whats' up.
there's hope for all of us HT.

revelarts

02-28-2012, 06:55 PM

Well a eco blogger journalist is now and "Extremist"

.His story is that becuase he said an FBI Raid was an FBI "raid" he was labeled an extremist.
And the person in the artcle getting raided was called a Terrorist BECUASE he was featured in the article and now faces jail time partly becuase he "associates" with the news writer.

this Carp is getting too crazy.

I'd love to hear the FBI's side of the story on this one.

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DragonStryk72

02-28-2012, 09:04 PM

You know, funny story, but I've been investigated by DHS before. Yup, this would've been... about six or seven years ago. I was living with my two gamer buddies, Josh and Kevin, and my buddy Ron was running a game of GURPS (Generic Universal Role-Playing System for the laymen). We were doing a modern spy setting, with the focus being on us, the Big Damn Heroes (tm), being a counter terrorist unit, and so naturally, we were having discussions back and forth about various different scenarios that were possible within the confines of the game world situation (That being a tactical nuclear strike against all the coastal cities of the head countries of the UN, with the nukes being bought out of Russia.

Well, the next day we come home to see the card of a member of the local FBI unit on the door. What saved us? The guy investigating had been a gamer in high school, and upon noting the leaning tower of pizza, along with our bookcase of gaming books, anime posters of... less than fully clothed women, concluded that we were likely not the dire threats to freedom he thought we were.