should queers be allowed to serve openly in the u.s. military [Archive] - Debate Policy

bullypulpit

04-09-2010, 03:36 AM

why or why not :)

Homosexuals serve now. But they risk their military careers by being openly so. Most NATO members, except for Turkey, have no issue will homosexuals serving in the military, and have no problems with unit cohesion or any of the other fears voiced by the RWN politicians in this country. Now what's different about Turkey? Oh yeah...Turkey is a secular Muslim state always teetering on the verge of coming under the control of the mullahs. Does this mean America is teetering on the verge of coming under the control of its mullahs?

actsnoblemartin

04-09-2010, 04:13 AM

I think you misunderstand me. I am a full supporter of gay and lesbian rights.

Queer for example is acceptible mostly to younger gays, while a lot of older days may be offended by it.

It might have been a poor choice to use the queer, but I wanted a discussion on this topic

Homosexuals serve now. But they risk their military careers by being openly so. Most NATO members, except for Turkey, have no issue will homosexuals serving in the military, and have no problems with unit cohesion or any of the other fears voiced by the RWN politicians in this country. Now what's different about Turkey? Oh yeah...Turkey is a secular Muslim state always teetering on the verge of coming under the control of the mullahs. Does this mean America is teetering on the verge of coming under the control of its mullahs?

CSM

04-09-2010, 05:33 AM

Homosexuals serve now. But they risk their military careers by being openly so. Most NATO members, except for Turkey, have no issue will homosexuals serving in the military, and have no problems with unit cohesion or any of the other fears voiced by the RWN politicians in this country. Now what's different about Turkey? Oh yeah...Turkey is a secular Muslim state always teetering on the verge of coming under the control of the mullahs. Does this mean America is teetering on the verge of coming under the control of its mullahs?

Wow, that is one heck of a leap there Bully, even for you! What the heck does homosexuals in the US have to do with an attempted take over of the Turkish government by mullahs? Are you saying that homosexuals are the underlying cause for Turkey's precarious situation? Are you saying that homosexuals want the US to be an Islamic state?

As to the OP's question: I have no problem with homosexuals serving in the military. There are caveats to that. Homosexuals must comply with standing regulations (no pink camo or make up on male soldiers, thank you very much) and no special treatment (same standards as other males for PT,for instance).
Before anyone brings it up, I am against special standards for female soldiers too. If a male soldier is required to do 60 push ups to pass the PT test then so should female soldiers.

Noir

04-09-2010, 07:08 AM

Yes they should.

As for some current history on the issue

When the UK took the step of allowing gay men and women to serve openly in the armed forces 10 years ago, public opinion was in favour but the armed forces themselves were not.

Members of the military now take part in London's annual Gay Pride march
The situation is very similar in the US today.
An NOP poll in September 1999 found seven out of 10 Britons believed lesbians and gay men should be allowed to serve in the military.
At the same time General Sir Anthony Farrar-Hockley, a leading opponent of the change, told the BBC: "Two surveys have disclosed that the overwhelming majority of those in military service today find homosexuality abhorrent."
In the US, a Gallup poll of 1,015 US citizens in May 2009 found 69% in favour of allowing gays to serve openly in the armed forces - an increase of 6% over five years. Support among "conservatives" had jumped 12% over the same period, from 46% to 58%.
But a Military Times poll in December 2008 found a majority of active-duty respondents - 58% - were against the idea of repealing the Don't Ask Don't Tell law.
Landmarks
Some 10% said they would leave the armed forces if gays were allowed to serve openly.

There was this expectation that there would be problems, but it just didn't happen
Dave Small, ex-Royal Navy Stonewall associate
Large-scale resignations from the UK armed forces were widely expected in some quarters, when the ban on gays was lifted - but in practice they did not materialise.

"There was this expectation that there would be problems, but it just didn't happen. People just got on with their work," said Dave Small

Fears that allowing openly gay soldiers to serve on the front line would lead to a breakdown of discipline and cohesion within units also proved unfounded.

I don't believe it's got anything to do with how efficient or capable their forces will be - it's to do with prejudices, I'm afraid
Lord Alan West, UK Security Minister
It's the example of British troops operating successfully in Iraq that has prompted the first Iraq war veteran elected to Congress - Democratic Representative Patrick Murphy of Pennsylvania - to campaign for a bill repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell.

More here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8493888.stm

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 08:07 AM

Yes they should.

As for some current history on the issue

Yeah, I would want to see US soldiers marching alongside these freaks - NOT! These are just a few photos from a London Pride parade... This is why I don't want the queers being "accepted" - they want to flaunt their abnormalities and turn themselves into a spectacle. Sorry, but a US Soldier should not be anywhere near people who degrade themselves in such a manner.

http://i40.tinypic.com/r88ihf.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/6fmfpc.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2s1stw3.jpg

Jeff

04-09-2010, 08:15 AM

Looking at Jim's pics I would have to say no, but if it is done as CSM states there really isn't a difference, if a gay man or woman can do everything a normal male or female can then yes let them serve, our Country has moved to make Homo's a normal part of life, so if they show the discipline the military requires and can pass all the physical test then yes let them serve

Now let it be known I have never served in the military so in my belief the men and woman that did serve would know this better

CSM

04-09-2010, 08:44 AM

Yeah, I would want to see US soldiers marching alongside these freaks - NOT! These are just a few photos from a London Pride parade... This is why I don't want the queers being "accepted" - they want to flaunt their abnormalities and turn themselves into a spectacle. Sorry, but a US Soldier should not be anywhere near people who degrade themselves in such a manner.

http://i40.tinypic.com/r88ihf.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/6fmfpc.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2s1stw3.jpg

If that is what gays think it would be like while serivng in the military then I would be totally against it. That being said, I have seen some of our finest heterosexual soldiers in action at strip clubs etc and they can be just as disgusting and embarassing.

Jeff

04-09-2010, 08:57 AM

If that is what gays think it would be like while serivng in the military then I would be totally against it. That being said, I have seen some of our finest heterosexual soldiers in action at strip clubs etc and they can be just as disgusting and embarassing.

I have to agree with ya again CSM, I personally have done disgusting things when I was younger in a strip club and acted like a complete ass, difference being is I didn't do it out in a parade for all to see, the gays fought so hard to get in the St. Patrick's day Parade in NYC one year they almost didn't have it, but they went on and let them join cause of our liberal laws said they could, these pics Jim posted are tame compared to what I saw there, What people do in there bed room is there business, yes we have to live with the fact there are gay folk, and yes they are winning rights to have the same rights as anyone else, if done tasteful ( I don't like it) but can respect it, but it just seems every time they have a get together in public it is guys dressed as condoms, chaps with there asses hanging out, hell that is not only disgusting but illegal, but we must be political correct and over look it, hell try walking down 7 th ave in NYC with your ass hanging out, bet ya don't make it far

pete311

04-09-2010, 09:15 AM

If that is what gays think it would be like while serivng in the military then I would be totally against it.

Which I think is certainly not the case. Jim here is clearly appealing to emotion rather than constructing a solid argument. I don't think anyone believes that a gay man would go into battle in the same mood as if he were at a pride parade. I don't doubt there could be problems off the battlefield, but I gotta believe when bullets start spraying that a brother is a brother.

CSM

04-09-2010, 09:30 AM

Noir

04-09-2010, 09:32 AM

Lololololol Jim.

Your best arguement as to why gays should not be in the army and able to disclose that they are gay is to show pics of gay pride :lol:

how about a reasoned argument, or maybe retorts to the source I gave which shows what they expected to happen (mass resignatons, less discipline ect) the kind of things you guys talk about and none of it happened, eerything just continued on as was.

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 09:39 AM

Which I think is certainly not the case. Jim here is clearly appealing to emotion rather than constructing a solid argument. I don't think anyone believes that a gay man would go into battle in the same mood as if he were at a pride parade. I don't doubt there could be problems off the battlefield, but I gotta believe when bullets start spraying that a brother is a brother.

Nope, just putting the facts out there in regards to soldiers being in the parades as Noir pointed out. I have a special place in my heart for ALL US Soldiers and would NEVER want to see them placed in the same light as those faggots in the parade acting like fruity loops. If men are willing to dance in front of thousands in panties and bras, a few might be willing to act a bit "off" in the military - and if they do, I think the military should reserve the right to shitcan them.

Lololololol Jim.

Your best arguement as to why gays should not be in the army and able to disclose that they are gay is to show pics of gay pride :lol:

how about a reasoned argument, or maybe retorts to the source I gave which shows what they expected to happen (mass resignatons, less discipline ect) the kind of things you guys talk about and none of it happened, eerything just continued on as was.

You laugh at my argument when it was YOU who brought up the parade? You should be laughing at yourself before laughing at the person who blew your lame parade out of the water.

Bottom line - the queers don't want to be "equal" - they want to be different and be accepted for being so. They want to be abnormal and be accepted into society with their shortcomings.

If they can be MEN or WOMEN and be like every other soldier in every department, then so be it. But the minute one of these fruitcakes gets caught wearing obscene outfits, or flaunting their homosexuality like those in the photos, they should be tossed on their queer asses.

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 09:50 AM

Also, look around at the various polls of the actual soldiers in the military - you know, the ones who this would actually effect. The overwhelming majority of these polls show that the servicemen do not want the don't ask, don't rule repealed.

pete311

04-09-2010, 09:53 AM

If men are willing to dance in front of thousands in panties and bras, a few might be willing to act a bit "off" in the military - and if they do, I think the military should reserve the right to shitcan them.

Not sure what your definition of "off" is, but certainly if anyone acts outside the conduct guidelines given to them they should be discharged, gay or not.

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 09:57 AM

Not sure what your definition of "off" is, but certainly if anyone acts outside the conduct guidelines given to them they should be discharged, gay or not.

I'm talking about the many queers who like to wear panties or bras to appease their partners, or being overtly effeminate. One can be a queer and still act like a man/woman - but when the lines get blurry and they start parading their sexual orientation, they should be cut loose.

Noir

04-09-2010, 10:00 AM

You laugh at my argument when it was YOU who brought up the parade? You should be laughing at yourself before laughing at the person who blew your lame parade out of the water.

Bottom line - the queers don't want to be "equal" - they want to be different and be accepted for being so. They want to be abnormal and be accepted into society with their shortcomings.

If they can be MEN or WOMEN and be like every other soldier in every department, then so be it. But the minute one of these fruitcakes gets caught wearing obscene outfits, or flaunting their homosexuality like those in the photos, they should be tossed on their queer asses.

I didn't even notice that was in the source lol, it's just one sentence, how about you deal with all the other sentences aswell?

pete311

04-09-2010, 10:05 AM

I'm talking about the many queers who like to wear panties or bras to appease their partners, or being overtly effeminate. One can be a queer and still act like a man/woman - but when the lines get blurry and they start parading their sexual orientation, they should be cut loose.

If it's creating a disturbance and is against code of conduct you have no argument from me. I really don't think most gays live their daily lives as if they were in a pride parade. Pride events usually bring out sensationalized behavior because of the sudden rush of identity reinforcement they receive from their peers and the euphoria of "being on stage". I bet if you ask gays in the military now if they'd like to prance around with a white boa and heels in the barracks, they'd likely not be interested. There are plenty of assholes in the military that get discharged so we shouldn't be singling out gays. If a gay wants to be a hero on the battlefield, let him.

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 10:06 AM

I didn't even notice that was in the source lol, it's just one sentence, how about you deal with all the other sentences aswell?

Quite frankly, I don't give a shit what works and what doesn't work elsewhere. The US has the most powerful military in the world and has been just fine with things the way they are. We need not emulate lesser forces, they should be emulating our military.

Again, try perusing through military forums of active servicemen or read magazines of the same. Most don't want to be enlisted with gays and tons have already stated they would not re-enlist if the policy is repealed. I'll always back the soldiers and their commanders. If they ultimately band together and want it repealed, I will support their decision. If the majority don't want it, I say they listen to those already giving their lives to our country.

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 10:08 AM

If it's creating a disturbance and is against code of conduct you have no argument from me. I really don't think most gays live their daily lives as if they were in a pride parade. Pride events usually bring out sensationalized behavior because of the sudden rush of identity reinforcement they receive from their peers and the euphoria of "being on stage". I bet if you ask gays in the military now if they'd like to prance around with a white boa and heels in the barracks, they'd likely not be interested. There are plenty of assholes in the military that get discharged so we shouldn't be singling out gays.

Queers in the military won't do so as they will be booted as of policy right now. If they repeal said policy, they should at least include something that the queers can't act like the opposite sex for their partners or fear discharge. If they act like men/women, then I have no issue with it - but if the military reflects societies queers as a whole, they will want to flaunt their sexual orientations.

CSM

04-09-2010, 10:13 AM

Quite frankly, I don't give a shit what works and what doesn't work elsewhere. The US has the most powerful military in the world and has been just fine with things the way they are. We need not emulate lesser forces, they should be emulating our military.

Again, try perusing through military forums of active servicemen or read magazines of the same. Most don't want to be enlisted with gays and tons have already stated they would not re-enlist if the policy is repealed. I'll always back the soldiers and their commanders. If they ultimately band together and want it repealed, I will support their decision. If the majority don't want it, I say they listen to those already giving their lives to our country.

That is my first reaction to the issue as well. Then I remembered when I was a young soldier and the Womens Army Corps was disbanded. I, like many others, just could not fathom how the US Army could possibly operate with women in the ranks alongside men. It all worked out somehow. I still have some heartburn over the difference in standards for men vs those for women, but for the most part it turned out all right. Not exactly the same, I know.

Like you Jim, I think a male soldier parading around in bra and panties is going to create a lot of very real trouble within the ranks and I have no doubt that some limp wristed pansy will try to do exactly that. I also think that such a soldier will be dealt with in an appropriate fashion just as other soldiers causing problems are.

actsnoblemartin

04-09-2010, 12:59 PM

I dont like anyone who dresses inappropriately, but most gays actually act normal, most are not flaming, or femininie, or dykish.

I think gays would be willing and already do act like any other soldier

just my two cents, take it or leave it bud :dance:

Nope, just putting the facts out there in regards to soldiers being in the parades as Noir pointed out. I have a special place in my heart for ALL US Soldiers and would NEVER want to see them placed in the same light as those faggots in the parade acting like fruity loops. If men are willing to dance in front of thousands in panties and bras, a few might be willing to act a bit "off" in the military - and if they do, I think the military should reserve the right to shitcan them.

You laugh at my argument when it was YOU who brought up the parade? You should be laughing at yourself before laughing at the person who blew your lame parade out of the water.

Bottom line - the queers don't want to be "equal" - they want to be different and be accepted for being so. They want to be abnormal and be accepted into society with their shortcomings.

If they can be MEN or WOMEN and be like every other soldier in every department, then so be it. But the minute one of these fruitcakes gets caught wearing obscene outfits, or flaunting their homosexuality like those in the photos, they should be tossed on their queer asses.

crin63

04-09-2010, 01:26 PM

NO! They shouldn't be allowed of the closet, let alone serve in our military.

pete311

04-09-2010, 02:47 PM

NO! They shouldn't be allowed of the closet, let alone serve in our military.

good argument!

Jeff

04-09-2010, 05:03 PM

good argument!

I liked it, LOL, straight and to the point :laugh2:

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 05:27 PM

NO! They shouldn't be allowed of the closet, let alone serve in our military.

good argument!

I don't think people need qualify their opinions with an argument that another approves of for their opinion to be validated.

Trigg

04-09-2010, 05:33 PM

There are gays in the military right now who are there to defend their country and are, presumably, doing a good job and advancing.

I would argue that the men who serve in the military are not the flamers who frequent those gay pride parades.

Also, if any inappropriate advances are made to strait men/women the military would treat it as harassment

pete311

04-09-2010, 05:38 PM

I don't think people need qualify their opinions with an argument that another approves of for their opinion to be validated.

It may be valid, but it is far from sound. Sure there is no rule here that members must backup their claims. However those members then must be prepared to be marginalized. For I can't take undeveloped rantings any more serious than listening to a bum spout gibberish on the side of a road.

Noir

04-09-2010, 05:38 PM

Quite frankly, I don't give a shit what works and what doesn't work elsewhere. The US has the most powerful military in the world and has been just fine with things the way they are. We need not emulate lesser forces, they should be emulating our military.

Again, try perusing through military forums of active servicemen or read magazines of the same. Most don't want to be enlisted with gays and tons have already stated they would not re-enlist if the policy is repealed. I'll always back the soldiers and their commanders. If they ultimately band together and want it repealed, I will support their decision. If the majority don't want it, I say they listen to those already giving their lives to our country.

Did you read the source I provided? There where the same issues with our armed forces, (it was not popular with men who serving, and there were fears many would resign ect) but all was more of less fine.

And like all these guys who say they will not re-enlist, are they all able to go unemployed in these economic times? It's easy to say your gonna do something, not so easy to follow through.

As for the 'we're the best so we follow no one' fair enough, but if your only arguement for staying stuck in the past is some sort of twisted sense of pride then I don't see that as a very strong agrument at all.

namvet

04-09-2010, 06:33 PM

they would make good sex slaves for the guys. in the shower just knock their soap out of the tray. and on pay day roll em :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Trigg

04-09-2010, 06:38 PM

they would make good sex slaves for the guys. in the shower just knock their soap out of the tray. and on pay day roll em :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

That's disgusting

namvet

04-09-2010, 06:53 PM

That's disgusting

think so ??? in HS me and my buds beat the living shit out of em to get beer $$$$ they were like shootn' fish in a barrel. the good ole days

Noir

04-09-2010, 07:04 PM

think so ??? in HS me and my buds beat the living shit out of em to get beer $$$$ they were like shootn' fish in a barrel. the good ole days

I'm sorry, you did what?!

Trigg

04-09-2010, 07:17 PM

think so ??? in HS me and my buds beat the living shit out of em to get beer $$$$ they were like shootn' fish in a barrel. the good ole days

I've worked with two openly gay people. One should have been brought up on harassment charges, the other was a nice person who I was completely fine with.

Personally I think some people are just born that way, it isn't a choice. If they choose to join the military I doubt they are the flamers.

pete311

04-09-2010, 07:17 PM

think so ??? in HS me and my buds beat the living shit out of em to get beer $$$$ they were like shootn' fish in a barrel. the good ole days

Again it amazing me how you think we're supposed to take anything you say in important discussions when you advertise behavior like this. You admit to this and yet want credibility of your opinions on important matters, REALLY???

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 07:23 PM

Did you read the source I provided? There where the same issues with our armed forces, (it was not popular with men who serving, and there were fears many would resign ect) but all was more of less fine.

Sure did, but again, we're talking about American Soldiers. While I give props to all soldiers who enlist to defend their country, I am solely concerned about US Soldiers and their morale. Solely listening to the soldiers, and not the gossip and media, they appear to be against repealing the law, as are the majority of commanders, especially during a time of war. I think those serving and those commanding should have the final say, not what a bunch of people debating on message boards think.

And like all these guys who say they will not re-enlist, are they all able to go unemployed in these economic times? It's easy to say your gonna do something, not so easy to follow through.

As opposed to having a ton of enlisted men who detest others surrounding them because of their sexual tendencies towards other men?

As for the 'we're the best so we follow no one' fair enough, but if your only arguement for staying stuck in the past is some sort of twisted sense of pride then I don't see that as a very strong agrument at all.

Soldiers fight to win, for pride, for honor. Take that away from them and make a mockery of the enlisted and you'll see a downward trend.

Noir

04-09-2010, 07:56 PM

Sure did, but again, we're talking about American Soldiers. While I give props to all soldiers who enlist to defend their country, I am solely concerned about US Soldiers and their morale. Solely listening to the soldiers, and not the gossip and media, they appear to be against repealing the law, as are the majority of commanders, especially during a time of war. I think those serving and those commanding should have the final say, not what a bunch of people debating on message boards think.

And the majority of the UK soldiers were against it happening here, and it did, and everyting was fine.
So unless you think the US soldiers will not be able to cope with the change when the UK soldiers did, I don't see what the problem is =/

As opposed to having a ton of enlisted men who detest others surrounding them because of their sexual tendencies towards other men?

If someone is so messed up that they can not work with someone just because they know they are gay, and feels so strongly about not wanting to defend their country because of it, and they would also rather be unemployed until they find other work, then so be it, that's their choice.

Soldiers fight to win, for pride, for honor. Take that away from them and make a mockery of the enlisted and you'll see a downward trend.

So are you saying that UK troops have had their pride and honour taken away from them? Or will this only happen to American troops?

namvet

04-09-2010, 07:57 PM

Again it amazing me how you think we're supposed to take anything you say in important discussions when you advertise behavior like this. You admit to this and yet want credibility of your opinions on important matters, REALLY???

as far as it being an important matter well, my wars over. if they decide to let faggots serve so be it. the guys in service will be the final judge.

maybe you asked for credibility but i didn't. it was life in the real world. BEFORE they were an endangered species so go suck one Osama lover

HogTrash

04-09-2010, 07:58 PM

Use your common sense instead of political correctness...Did you ever ask yourself, 'why don't male and female military personel share the same baracks, toilets and showers'?

It has been determined that throwing people together who view each other as sexual objects, is very unproductive and disruptive to an already high stress job that involves life and death situations.
and
A gay soldier checking out a fellow soldiers ass in the shower would infuriate young macho warriors that are very sensitive about their sexuality and would definately lead to animosity, conflicts and many lawsuits.

This isn't a game...The PC crowd should stick to whining and crying in defense of their beloved minorities...The defense of the United States is serious business...Gays in the armed forces would seriously weaken the military.

Noir

04-09-2010, 08:05 PM

Noir

04-09-2010, 08:07 PM

Can I ask what level this 'don't ask don't tell' goes to? I mean, I'm sure most soldiers have things like facebook to keep in contact with those back home. If a soldier has pics/comments showing him/her to be gay on there facebook or whatever, can they be discharged from the military?

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 08:29 PM

And the majority of the UK soldiers were against it happening here, and it did, and everyting was fine.
So unless you think the US soldiers will not be able to cope with the change when the UK soldiers did, I don't see what the problem is =/

You brought it up, so don't be offended...

I don't think the US Soldiers are like UK soldiers. I think the "brotherhood" and the honor they instill in themselves from boot camp forward is much different. I think the physical and mental testing of a US Soldier is second to none. I think what is expected of a US Soldier is second to none. This is why our military as a whole is second to none. It all starts with the soldier, without whom there would be no military. Apparently the enlisted in the US don't want to compromise and settle their beliefs. There is also a lot of God in our Military, and being a queer goes against many of their values.

If someone is so messed up that they can not work with someone just because they know they are gay, and feels so strongly about not wanting to defend their country because of it, and they would also rather be unemployed until they find other work, then so be it, that's their choice.

This is where we differ - I think the queers are the ones who are "so messed up". Get them help for their issues instead of bowing to their demands of equality.

So are you saying that UK troops have had their pride and honour taken away from them? Or will this only happen to American troops?

When it becomes supreme law of the military, against the wishes of the troops, then yes, part of their pride and honor will be removed. How each individual soldier responds to such is up to them. Personally, I would finish my time and bail, but I haven't had the honor of serving and don't deserve to speak for any of those who have or are currently serving.

HogTrash

04-09-2010, 08:31 PM

Gays are in the military, they can just not be open about it.True, they know they can't reveal themselves and therefore keep a low profile, as it should be.

Making most of what you say not needed in the debate of if they should be able to be open, but rather of they should be allowed in the milatary at all.If gays are permitted to openly serve, they will be bolder and these things I spoke of will become a reality.

Gays have proven that they will never be satisfied with an inch and will always demand a mile and more.

Homosexuality should not be given validity or acknowledged as anything but what it is...A sick perversion.

Let them keep their sick perversions in the back allies and gutters out of sight of good and decent people.

HogTrash

04-09-2010, 08:39 PM

And the majority of the UK soldiers were against it happening here, and it did, and everyting was fine.
So unless you think the US soldiers will not be able to cope with the change when the UK soldiers did, I don't see what the problem is =/
Americans are very different from the British...The Brits permited their government to restrict free speech and take away their guns, things Americans would never tolerate.

SassyLady

04-09-2010, 08:45 PM

Here's my opinion, which is the opinion of a military service member's wife:

When our spouses are deployed we are counseled to not burden them with all our problems we might be having at home because a "distracted soldier is a dead soldier" and a distracted soldier could be cause of death for other soldiers.

So, if soldiers feel that knowing someone is gay will be a distraction, then it should not be public. And telling the troops it isn't politically correct to let others know that you feel it is a distraction will not keep it from being a distraction.

Instead of rolling over belly up to the progressive liberals of this country, I see no reason why being gay in the military needs to be publically announced.

Soldiers are supposed to be there to protect and defend, not use the military as a forum to get their personal agendas satisfied.

Noir

04-09-2010, 08:52 PM

Americans are very different from the British...The Brits permited their government to restrict free speech and take away their guns, things Americans would never tolerate.

Yep, Americans would never let free speech be restricted, which is why these people are not allowed to disclose their sexuality for fear of losing there carrier.

The irony of what you have just said in context with this thread must be obvious to you...

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 08:58 PM

Yep, Americans would never let free speech be restricted, which is why these people are not allowed to disclose their sexuality for fear of losing there carrier.

The irony of what you have just said in context with this thread must be obvious to you...

Methinks you need a better understanding of what "freedom of speech" in the USA means before you make yourself look any more foolish.

Noir

04-09-2010, 09:16 PM

Methinks you need a better understanding of what "freedom of speech" in the USA means before you make yourself look any more foolish.

Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without censorship and/or limitation. (wiki)
Unless you hae some special meaning.

Obviously the freedom of speech of gay people in the milatary is vastly limited. The irony that hog would suggest that Americans would not tolerate limitations on freedom of speech, while in the same breath supporting 'don't ask don't tell' is simply amazing!

HogTrash

04-09-2010, 09:37 PM

HogTrash

04-09-2010, 09:46 PM

Yep, Americans would never let free speech be restricted, which is why these people are not allowed to disclose their sexuality for fear of losing there carrier.

The irony of what you have just said in context with this thread must be obvious to you...Next, you liberals will wanting to grant freedom of expression to pedophiles and necrophiles.

Are there any other sick disgusting perverts that you believe should have rights?...How about beasty boys? :cow:

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 09:47 PM

Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without censorship and/or limitation. (wiki)
Unless you hae some special meaning.

Obviously the freedom of speech of gay people in the milatary is vastly limited. The irony that hog would suggest that Americans would not tolerate limitations on freedom of speech, while in the same breath supporting 'don't ask don't tell' is simply amazing!

Just as I figured, you were speaking about what you have no clue about.

I'll give you a hint for your searches, start with the US Constitution, its amendments and "Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech."

You're another one of the belief that "freedom of speech" means people can speak without censorship, which is a long held myth. Maybe not as much here on message boards... In reality, it has everything to do with Congress enacting laws and the ability of the people to have the ability to speak out against the government and/or to seek redress.

Additionally, please explain to me how someones sexual choices somehow become speech...

Noir

04-09-2010, 09:55 PM

Next, you liberals will wanting to grant freedom of expression to pedophiles and necrophiles.

Are there any other sick disgusting perverts that you believe should have rights?...How about beasty boys? :cow:

Good to see you did not try and defend the point you made, but rather try to smear me with your claims, showing you know what you said was foolish.

You know the difference is thatyou have two consenting adults, unlike the other things you gave cited.

Now can we go back on topic?

@Mrskurtsprincess, what about the gay soilder who has to go out of his/her way to not be found out as a gay, or they could ruin their carrier? Is that fair on them?

Noir

04-09-2010, 09:57 PM

Just as I figured, you were speaking about what you have no clue about.

I'll give you a hint for your searches, start with the US Constitution, its amendments and "Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech."

You're another one of the belief that "freedom of speech" means people can speak without censorship, which is a long held myth. Maybe not as much here on message boards... In reality, it has everything to do with Congress enacting laws and the ability of the people to have the ability to speak out against the government and/or to seek redress.

Additionally, please explain to me how someones sexual choices somehow become speech...

Is 'don't ask don't tell' not a law?

And they lose the ability to speak about there sexuality, that is a restriction of speech, no?

jimnyc

04-09-2010, 10:25 PM

Is 'don't ask don't tell' not a law?

And they lose the ability to speak about there sexuality, that is a restriction of speech, no?

Yes, it is a law, but their thresholds that dictate what they can say and do are done so by military code. Also, serving in the military is not a constitutional right. They are 100% free to discuss their sexual preferences and the military is 100% free to terminate their services - which is 100% equal to the standing of all employment within the US.

If I work at Starbucks, and my boss doesn't want me to talk about being gay, he can legally fire me for doing so. I can legally quit if I don't like his policies.

I do have the right in both cases to seek redress through the US government though, and will not be penalized legally for doing any of the above.

But I see you're finally getting to the point - that being a queer in the military might be fine, but it's when they demand to speak or act out that problems arise. They are soldiers there to do a job, not to fight with superiors about what they can say and cannot say. I would love to see a newly enlisted Marine make demands of what he can and cannot say to his superiors, even if not about being gay!

REDWHITEBLUE2

04-09-2010, 11:23 PM

why or why not :)

QUEERS Should go back in the closet were they belong
They are the moral decay of America

HogTrash

04-09-2010, 11:37 PM

Good to see you did not try and defend the point you made, but rather try to smear me with your claims, showing you know what you said was foolish.

You know the difference is thatyou have two consenting adults, unlike the other things you gave cited.

Now can we go back on topic?

@Mrskurtsprincess, what about the gay soilder who has to go out of his/her way to not be found out as a gay, or they could ruin their carrier? Is that fair on them?Just because you and your buddy both consent to licking the shit off each others dicks when you're done butt-fucking each other, doesn't mean I have to accept your sick disgusting perversion.

You are more than welcome to do whatever you like, as long as you keep it in the back allies and gutters away from good decent people and their children...We don't want to see it or hear about it.

crin63

04-10-2010, 12:12 AM

good argument!

I'm not interested in lending credibility or normalcy to perverts by accepting their lifestyle choice.

SassyLady

04-10-2010, 12:33 AM

Mrskurtsprincess, what about the gay soilder who has to go out of his/her way to not be found out as a gay, or they could ruin their carrier? Is that fair on them?

Fair???? Fair?????

I want my husband, and all those in his command that he is responsible for, to be focused on staying alive, doing their job, being alert to the enemy...........not focused on exposing or keeping secrets. I don't give a damn about what is fair to someone who is outed; I care about my husband being able to keep his soldiers focused on the job at hand and not about someone's sexual orientation.

The "Don't ask, don't tell" was just that. No one asked and no one told. The fact that some gay soldiers decided they wanted to use the military as a forum to push their idealism into another area of public life troubles me. As for the gay soldier who "has to go out of their way" to not be found out as gay or have their career ruined? Seriously???? You are more worried about one soldier's career as opposed to the underlying strain on the entire unit he/she is with as they have to worry about how to act around them?

And just in case you start thinking I'm homophobic .... my mother-in-law is gay and her son is in the military and we have this discussion ad nausem.....and it still boils down to the fact that, yes, there are good soldiers who are gay .... and those good ones keep it to themselves, are very discreet, and respect the job they took an oath to uphold, because they know how to keep the cohesiveness of their unit intact. They put the unit's well being ahead of their own need to be "outed".

In my humble opinion, any soldier who wants to make it public needs to make a personal decision as to what is more important - their need to be public or their career. People make choices between careers and personal issues all the time .... do you think the rest of the organization should suffer because one person can't conform?

Now you tell me what would be fair!

REDWHITEBLUE2

04-10-2010, 12:50 PM

what about the gay soilder who has to go out of his/her way to not be found out as a gay, or they could ruin their carrier? Is that fair on them? :poke:Then these queers need to get a new carrier there's no place in the Military for these fudge packers and winnie washers

sometimes political correctness needs to be over looked and this is one of them

LiberalNation

04-10-2010, 12:57 PM

dadt is on it's last leg, will be over soon and they aren't really enforcing it now.

82Marine89

04-10-2010, 01:47 PM

As to the OP's question: I have no problem with homosexuals serving in the military. There are caveats to that. Homosexuals must comply with standing regulations (no pink camo or make up on male soldiers, thank you very much) and no special treatment (same standards as other males for PT,for instance).
Before anyone brings it up, I am against special standards for female soldiers too. If a male soldier is required to do 60 push ups to pass the PT test then so should female soldiers.

Fully agree.