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-Cp
05-31-2010, 01:32 PM
Interesting:

Many today, in modern Christianity, put a lot of emphasis on “free will” and assume that the natural man can manipulate his will to freely accept Jesus into his heart in spite of what scripture teaches about the nature of man. This is problematic in more ways than one.

First of all, the human heart is not to be trusted: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jer. 17:9). Why would a heart that is desperately sick and wicked be inclined to someone who is Holy and Just?

It begs the question to suggest that the natural man is capable of the impossible; namely, accepting Jesus into his heart by his own limited will that is in bondage to sin along with the rest of being. Man is dead to sin (Eph. 2:1). It is foolish to believe that a mere man can bring himself back from the dead. Only the impossible can become a reality with God (Matt. 19:26).
There are many ways to tackle the false assumption that man can accept Jesus into his heart by his own “free will.” However, I am going to stick to John 1:12-13 for the sake of space:

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

How is it that man freely chooses to accept Jesus into his heart when God says that man is not born again by his own will?
God makes us born again not by our will ("free will") but by His will (John 1:12-13). Notice that God applies the verb, “gave” in verse 12. Believing is completely a work of God.
It's not our will that saves us (verse 13). This means we can never will to repent and come to a saving relationship with our LORD Jesus Christ. Divine intervention is absolutely necessary in order for salvation to occur in any individual -- God must will to come live inside those He chooses, which enables the sinner (now indwelled by the Holy Spirit) to freely love God in return.

And, fortunately, the sinner always loves God in return:

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:37-39).

Other scriptures to study:
Man is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9), is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

God draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65), creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10), appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

http://truthdefense.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20:can-free-will-choose-jesus&catid=2:calvinism&Itemid=42

bullypulpit
06-17-2010, 05:51 PM
Why?

gabosaurus
06-17-2010, 10:17 PM
Man is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9), is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Looks like the Bible is describing conservative Republican men.

darin
06-18-2010, 03:55 AM
God draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65), creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10), appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

http://truthdefense.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20:can-free-will-choose-jesus&catid=2:calvinism&Itemid=42


Calvinism sucks - is borderline evil. Pulling scripture out of context does NOT support an argument.

revelarts
06-18-2010, 07:30 AM
CP,
better form of question this round. But you do know that there are many Christians who believe exactly what you've described. I'm about there myself.
So your beef isn't with ALL Christians just Arminian Christians. Or maybe better said the none Calvinist.


DMP,
Sorry to here you think that God is boarder line evil in the way he does things dude. The Scriptures CP uses are for the most part, not taken out of context. I don't understand how Arminians can deny the scriptures so easily. But i don't say they are borderline evil, just mistaken and in OBVIOUS denial. That's not to say that i think every point of Calvinism proper are completely impenetrable but that the general position is correct.

darin
06-18-2010, 07:55 AM
DMP,
Sorry to here you think that God is boarder line evil in the way he does things dude. The Scriptures CP uses are for the most part, not taken out of context. I don't understand how Arminians can deny the scriptures so easily. But i don't say they are borderline evil, just mistaken and in OBVIOUS denial. That's not to say that i think every point of Calvinism proper are completely impenetrable but that the general position is correct.

Sorry you think God does things in an evil way. (shrug).

Calvinism is obviously wrong. It's honestly beyond me how otherwise reasonable, rational people can believe it's tripe. Calvinism - specifically man's INABILITY to choose God; thus God "Choses" man (read: forces man to accept Him) is so f'ing ridiculous - Calvin owes the world an apology.

revelarts
06-18-2010, 09:15 PM
it's Just from a common sense point of view that God choosing us makes more sense.
I suspect that you acknowledge that humans are sinners in some fashion (don't you?). And that we like sin in general. How is it fair for people that are sinners and love sin to be given option to make a choice for a good God. Seems the dice is loaded against humanity. Like asking a happy smoker to quit cold turkey. Unless you believe that man is not as bad as the Bible describes us. Would it be fair for God to allow people already lusting in the wrong direction to there own devises? I'm sorry you think God wouldn't help, call people to believe against the pull of their natures. It' not God whose boarder line evil it's people.

The only thing i can conceive of to rebut it , again, is the idea that man is not that bad. that the heart is NOT deceitful wicked and we can know it. That man does seek after God of his own free will.

Show the Scriptures for your position and I might consider it but just calling Calvin names, saying it ridiculous and cusing at the idea isn't very convincing.

SassyLady
06-18-2010, 10:52 PM
Looks like the Bible is describing conservative Republican men.

And liberal women.

-Cp
06-18-2010, 11:37 PM
Calvinism sucks - is borderline evil. Pulling scripture out of context does NOT support an argument.

Nobody is talking about Calvin here, bro..

-Cp
06-18-2010, 11:38 PM
CP,
better form of question this round. But you do know that there are many Christians who believe exactly what you've described. I'm about there myself.
So your beef isn't with ALL Christians just Arminian Christians. Or maybe better said the none Calvinist.


DMP,
Sorry to here you think that God is boarder line evil in the way he does things dude. The Scriptures CP uses are for the most part, not taken out of context. I don't understand how Arminians can deny the scriptures so easily. But i don't say they are borderline evil, just mistaken and in OBVIOUS denial. That's not to say that i think every point of Calvinism proper are completely impenetrable but that the general position is correct.

I'm neither a Calvinist nor Amerinian...

revelarts
06-19-2010, 01:35 AM
So what are you, religiously speaking, do you adhere to any specific religious teaching or doctrine? I asked early if you are a Jehovah's witness and you didn't answer I don't think.

darin
06-19-2010, 07:38 AM
Nobody is talking about Calvin here, bro..

You brought up the ideals of "Forced 'conversion'". You put up out-of-context scriptures which support the notion God forces himself upon us; we are some how pre-destined in a way which removes Love from the equation. :)

-Cp
06-19-2010, 10:15 PM
You brought up the ideals of "Forced 'conversion'". You put up out-of-context scriptures which support the notion God forces himself upon us; we are some how pre-destined in a way which removes Love from the equation. :)

What idea of "Forced conversion" did I bring up?

And what scripture did I bring up that was/is "out of context"?

darin
06-20-2010, 07:34 AM
Everything used here tries to paint the picture that God makes our choices:


Man is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9), is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

God draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65), creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10), appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

We are only born-again by OUR will - not his. To say otherwise is to make God an asshole.

-Cp
06-20-2010, 12:02 PM
Everything used here tries to paint the picture that God makes our choices:



We are only born-again by OUR will - not his. To say otherwise is to make God an asshole.


How does it make God an "asshole" to save the creatures he made?

This might help explain it?

The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A (http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html)
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html)
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part C (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html)
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part D (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html)

-Cp
06-20-2010, 12:21 PM
This might help too:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xo0YESewCUE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xo0YESewCUE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Silver
06-20-2010, 05:21 PM
Looks like the Bible is describing conservative Republican men.

More likely Democratic women.

bullypulpit
06-25-2010, 07:30 AM
Everything used here tries to paint the picture that God makes our choices:



We are only born-again by OUR will - not his. To say otherwise is to make God an asshole.

If the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and we are bound to live by the strictures of God's law contained therein, free will in that context is non-existent.

-Cp
06-28-2010, 02:48 AM
Everything used here tries to paint the picture that God makes our choices:



We are only born-again by OUR will - not his. To say otherwise is to make God an asshole.

Is the power of our ―free will‖ to damn ourselves for eternity really absolute, exceeding the power of God‘s ―free will to save us, His very own property? ―All souls are mine (Ez. 18:4). If so, who suf-fers most in eternal damnation, man or God who loves man with an everlasting love (Jer. 31:3)?