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Kathianne
07-16-2010, 04:15 PM
The American Spectator : America's Ruling Class -- And the Perils of Revolution (http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/print)

Or Why the tea parties are considered 'good' by most Americans whether they go or not


America's Ruling Class -- And the Perils of Revolution

By Angelo M. Codevilla from the July 2010 - August 2010 issue

As over-leveraged investment houses began to fail in September 2008, the leaders of the Republican and Democratic parties, of major corporations, and opinion leaders stretching from the National Review magazine (and the Wall Street Journal) on the right to the Nation magazine on the left, agreed that spending some $700 billion to buy the investors' "toxic assets" was the only alternative to the U.S. economy's "systemic collapse." In this, President George W. Bush and his would-be Republican successor John McCain agreed with the Democratic candidate, Barack Obama. Many, if not most, people around them also agreed upon the eventual commitment of some 10 trillion nonexistent dollars in ways unprecedented in America. They explained neither the difference between the assets' nominal and real values, nor precisely why letting the market find the latter would collapse America. The public objected immediately, by margins of three or four to one.

When this majority discovered that virtually no one in a position of power in either party or with a national voice would take their objections seriously, that decisions about their money were being made in bipartisan backroom deals with interested parties, and that the laws on these matters were being voted by people who had not read them, the term "political class" came into use. Then, after those in power changed their plans from buying toxic assets to buying up equity in banks and major industries but refused to explain why, when they reasserted their right to decide ad hoc on these and so many other matters, supposing them to be beyond the general public's understanding, the American people started referring to those in and around government as the "ruling class." And in fact Republican and Democratic office holders and their retinues show a similar presumption to dominate and fewer differences in tastes, habits, opinions, and sources of income among one another than between both and the rest of the country. They think, look, and act as a class.

Although after the election of 2008 most Republican office holders argued against the Troubled Asset Relief Program, against the subsequent bailouts of the auto industry, against the several "stimulus" bills and further summary expansions of government power to benefit clients of government at the expense of ordinary citizens, the American people had every reason to believe that many Republican politicians were doing so simply by the logic of partisan opposition. After all, Republicans had been happy enough to approve of similar things under Republican administrations. Differences between Bushes, Clintons, and Obamas are of degree, not kind. Moreover, 2009-10 establishment Republicans sought only to modify the government's agenda while showing eagerness to join the Democrats in new grand schemes, if only they were allowed to. Sen. Orrin Hatch continued dreaming of being Ted Kennedy, while Lindsey Graham set aside what is true or false about "global warming" for the sake of getting on the right side of history. No prominent Republican challenged the ruling class's continued claim of superior insight, nor its denigration of the American people as irritable children who must learn their place. The Republican Party did not disparage the ruling class, because most of its officials are or would like to be part of it...

The Ruling Class

Who are these rulers, and by what right do they rule? How did America change from a place where people could expect to live without bowing to privileged classes to one in which, at best, they might have the chance to climb into them? What sets our ruling class apart from the rest of us?

The most widespread answers -- by such as the Times's Thomas Friedman and David Brooks -- are schlock sociology...

The Faith

Its attitude is key to understanding our bipartisan ruling class. Its first tenet is that "we" are the best and brightest while the rest of Americans are retrograde, racist, and dysfunctional unless properly constrained. How did this replace the Founding generation's paradigm that "all men are created equal"? ...

The Agenda: Power

Our ruling class's agenda is power for itself. While it stakes its claim through intellectual-moral pretense, it holds power by one of the oldest and most prosaic of means: patronage and promises thereof...

Dependence Economics

By taxing and parceling out more than a third of what Americans produce, through regulations that reach deep into American life, our ruling class is making itself the arbiter of wealth and poverty. While the economic value of anything depends on sellers and buyers agreeing on that value as civil equals in the absence of force, modern government is about nothing if not tampering with civil equality. By endowing some in society with power to force others to sell cheaper than they would, and forcing others yet to buy at higher prices -- even to buy in the first place -- modern government makes valuable some things that are not, and devalues others that are. Thus if you are not among the favored guests at the table where officials make detailed lists of who is to receive what at whose expense, you are on the menu. Eventually, pretending forcibly that valueless things have value dilutes the currency's value for all...

Who Depends on Whom?

In Congressional Government (1885) Woodrow Wilson left no doubt: the U.S. Constitution prevents the government from meeting the country's needs by enumerating rights that the government may not infringe. ("Congress shall make no law..." says the First Amendment, typically.) Our electoral system, based on single member districts, empowers individual voters at the expense of "responsible parties." Hence the ruling class's perpetual agenda has been to diminish the role of the citizenry's elected representatives, enhancing that of party leaders as well as of groups willing to partner in the government's plans, and to craft a "living" Constitution in which restrictions on government give way to "positive rights" -- meaning charters of government power...

Disaggregating and Dispiriting

The ruling class is keener to reform the American people's family and spiritual lives than their economic and civic ones. In no other areas is the ruling class's self-definition so definite, its contempt for opposition so patent, its Kulturkampf so open...

Meddling and Apologies

America's best and brightest believe themselves qualified and duty bound to direct the lives not only of Americans but of foreigners as well. George W. Bush's 2005 inaugural statement that America cannot be free until the whole world is free and hence that America must push and prod mankind to freedom was but an extrapolation of the sentiments of America's Progressive class, first articulated by such as Princeton's Woodrow Wilson and Columbia's Nicholas Murray Butler. But while the early Progressives expected the rest of the world to follow peacefully, today's ruling class makes decisions about war and peace at least as much forcibly to tinker with the innards of foreign bodies politic as to protect America. Indeed, they conflate the two purposes in the face of the American people's insistence to draw a bright line between war against our enemies and peace with non-enemies in whose affairs we do not interfere. That is why, from Wilson to Kissinger, the ruling class has complained that the American people oscillate between bellicosity and "isolationism."...

The Country Class

Describing America's country class is problematic because it is so heterogeneous. It has no privileged podiums, and speaks with many voices, often inharmonious. It shares above all the desire to be rid of rulers it regards inept and haughty. It defines itself practically in terms of reflexive reaction against the rulers' defining ideas and proclivities -- e.g., ever higher taxes and expanding government, subsidizing political favorites, social engineering, approval of abortion, etc. Many want to restore a way of life largely superseded. Demographically, the country class is the other side of the ruling class's coin: its most distinguishing characteristics are marriage, children, and religious practice. While the country class, like the ruling class, includes the professionally accomplished and the mediocre, geniuses and dolts, it is different because of its non-orientation to government and its members' yearning to rule themselves rather than be ruled by others...

Congruent Agendas?

Each of the country class's diverse parts has its own agenda, which flows from the peculiar ways in which the ruling class impacts its concerns. Independent businesspeople are naturally more sensitive to the growth of privileged relations between government and their competitors. Persons who would like to lead their community rue the advantages that Democratic and Republican party establishments are accruing. Parents of young children and young women anxious about marriage worry that cultural directives from on high are dispelling their dreams. The faithful to God sense persecution. All resent higher taxes and loss of freedom. More and more realize that their own agenda's advancement requires concerting resistance to the ruling class across the board...

The Classes Clash

The ruling class's appetite for deference, power, and perks grows. The country class disrespects its rulers, wants to curtail their power and reduce their perks. The ruling class wears on its sleeve the view that the rest of Americans are racist, greedy, and above all stupid. The country class is ever more convinced that our rulers are corrupt, malevolent, and inept. The rulers want the ruled to shut up and obey. The ruled want self-governance. The clash between the two is about which side's vision of itself and of the other is right and which is wrong. Because each side -- especially the ruling class -- embodies its views on the issues, concessions by one side to another on any issue tend to discredit that side's view of itself. One side or the other will prevail. The clash is as sure and momentous as its outcome is unpredictable...

Angelo M. Codevilla is professor emeritus of international relations at Boston University.

Really long, these are just snippets from opening paragraphs.

Gaffer
07-16-2010, 05:03 PM
Things are starting to look like a modern french revolution in the making. I often refer to the politicians and big business types as the new royalty.

Kathianne
07-16-2010, 05:08 PM
Things are starting to look like a modern french revolution in the making. I often refer to the politicians and big business types as the new royalty.

The clash is here, now we'll see if people are able to wrest control back to some degree, if not you will be proven right about violence.

DragonStryk72
07-16-2010, 09:41 PM
The clash is here, now we'll see if people are able to wrest control back to some degree, if not you will be proven right about violence.

Wow, you know the first thing I thought of when I read that point: It's gonna be the violence. The politicians are too removed now, they cannot understand us any longer, and they aren't just going to hand over power.

Kathianne
07-17-2010, 12:25 AM
Wow, you know the first thing I thought of when I read that point: It's gonna be the violence. The politicians are too removed now, they cannot understand us any longer, and they aren't just going to hand over power.

I tend to agree. It's not about race, It's not totally about wealth, something I'm glad the professor makes clear. It's about entitlement to power, notice not entitlement programs, they are just the carrot.

It's a powerful article, long but worth a couple readings. What I recognized from the first skimming was the reason the tea party ideas caught on like a prairie fire. I don't think it's going to quiet down.

avatar4321
07-17-2010, 12:58 AM
Things are starting to look like a modern french revolution in the making. I often refer to the politicians and big business types as the new royalty.

I seriously hope not. The French Revolution was the start of this right-left crap. It was the start of government sponsored terror in the modern age. And it ended up with a dictator who proclaimed himself Emperor of Europe, not to mention a Europe that soon lead to A World War a century later.

avatar4321
07-17-2010, 12:59 AM
Wow, you know the first thing I thought of when I read that point: It's gonna be the violence. The politicians are too removed now, they cannot understand us any longer, and they aren't just going to hand over power.

I sincerely hope it doesn't turn to violence, because once violence starts, it's hard to predict what the final outcome will be.

Kathianne
07-17-2010, 01:18 AM
I seriously hope not. The French Revolution was the start of this right-left crap. It was the start of government sponsored terror in the modern age. And it ended up with a dictator who proclaimed himself Emperor of Europe, not to mention a Europe that soon lead to A World War a century later.

Nah, Jefferson and Hamilton were going at that before the French Revolution, they just became more strident with it. Gaffer's right about the similarities, we truly have a ruling class and now the people know it. Bottom line, whether the right or left, we're not as complacent as the French or most people on earth. The politicians better start realizing that.

Gaffer
07-17-2010, 08:41 AM
Kath that is a great post. There is a new royalty that is only about power. You have to be rich to become a part of it because they have laid so many monetary traps for those joining. There are also the the thugs that bully their way into the elite ranks such as jackson and sharpton. I think even the clintons belong in that category.

The violence is coming because people are going to have enough and the elites are not about to give up anything. A country full of really angry Americans will make the Bastille look like a weenie roast. I'm sure the elite's already have contingency plans and places of exile establish. The level of violence will depend on the elites and how they respond.

musicman
07-21-2010, 03:40 AM
Wow, Kathianne - just...WOW! I agree - a whale of an article. I don't think I've seen America's present, desperate situation described this clearly - until now.

It's just going to have to, finally, come down to ordinary Americans, isn't it? Do we have the energy and the courage for this fight? Is freedom worth it to us?

We shall see.

CSM
07-21-2010, 07:22 AM
Awesome article!

I have been re-reading the Federalist Papers and one thing keeps going thru my head as I do: The power behind the Constitution of the United States is the citizens of this country. They must be engaged for the balance of power to work within the Federal government. If they are not, then the many far fetched situations that Hamilton (in particular) mentions become a reality.

Kathianne
07-21-2010, 07:27 AM
Awesome article!

I have been re-reading the Federalist Papers and one thing keeps going thru my head as I do: The power behind the Constitution of the United States is the citizens of this country. They must be engaged for the balance of power to work within the Federal government. If they are not, then the many far fetched situations that Hamilton (in particular) mentions become a reality.

Indeed. The fact that the Federalists won the arguments of ideas over the anti-Federalists really illustrates that the 'citizens' at heart are not anti-government. The fact that those in power, beginning in at least mid-19th C and continuing ever since have allowed such a divide to grow was not unforeseen, but has gone on more or less unchecked. It has reached, in 2010, a critical mass, the question is how it will be dealt with.

CSM
07-21-2010, 07:39 AM
Indeed. The fact that the Federalists won the arguments of ideas over the anti-Federalists really illustrates that the 'citizens' at heart are not anti-government. The fact that those in power, beginning in at least mid-19th C and continuing ever since have allowed such a divide to grow was not unforeseen, but has gone on more or less unchecked. It has reached, in 2010, a critical mass, the question is how it will be dealt with.

Yep. as long as the voter is apathetic and /or complacent, the federal government runs rampant. States rights are a non issue anymore because the feds have bought the States with federal handouts just as they have bought many of the voters. Unless the voter takes action and exerts their power we as a nation are headed for tyranny.

Kathianne
07-21-2010, 08:05 AM
Yep. as long as the voter is apathetic and /or complacent, the federal government runs rampant. States rights are a non issue anymore because the feds have bought the States with federal handouts just as they have bought many of the voters. Unless the voter takes action and exerts their power we as a nation are headed for tyranny.

And therein lies the reason for the overreaction by the left towards Tea Party. At first they ignored, then they mocked, then they tried and still are to label the idea as racist. They, meaning those in power, feel the awakening and are getting scared. The numbers of haves and have nots regarding power is overwhelming in favor of the later. If the awakening continues, even economic recovery will not allow them to turn back, without serious cleansing.

CSM
07-21-2010, 08:17 AM
And therein lies the reason for the overreaction by the left towards Tea Party. At first they ignored, then they mocked, then they tried and still are to label the idea as racist. They, meaning those in power, feel the awakening and are getting scared. The numbers of haves and have nots regarding power is overwhelming in favor of the later. If the awakening continues, even economic recovery will not allow them to turn back, without serious cleansing.

If it isn't a quote already then it should be: "None are as oppressed as those who assume the yoke of tyranny willingly."

If the American citizen allows the political elite to continue along the path we are on then they do not deserve the freedom that belongs to those who actually work for it and strive to maintain it.

Kathianne
07-21-2010, 08:22 AM
If it isn't a quote already then it should be: "None are as oppressed as those who assume the yoke of tyranny willingly."

If the American citizen allows the political elite to continue along the path we are on then they do not deserve the freedom that belongs to those who actually work for it and strive to maintain it.

I don't disagree with you. However, anyone alive today has never lived under the ideals of the Constitution. Hardly any above the age of 40 have been taught the ideals or the philosophy behind from where they came. The semi-government control was less 40 years ago, but much higher than 30 years before that. The power elite have been gaining strength since at least the Civil War and arguably since Jackson.

It's a new discovery of the wheel going on here. A few know the ideas, from self-education; more know in a more general sense; and a few are just discovering the wheel.

CSM
07-21-2010, 08:47 AM
I don't disagree with you. However, anyone alive today has never lived under the ideals of the Constitution. Hardly any above the age of 40 have been taught the ideals or the philosophy behind from where they came. The semi-government control was less 40 years ago, but much higher than 30 years before that. The power elite have been gaining strength since at least the Civil War and arguably since Jackson.

It's a new discovery of the wheel going on here. A few know the ideas, from self-education; more know in a more general sense; and a few are just discovering the wheel.

I agree. One has to wonder why we, as citizens, stopped teaching our children the ideals of the Constitution. It would be all too easy to blame it solely on the education system.

Kathianne
07-21-2010, 08:54 AM
I agree. One has to wonder why we, as citizens, stopped teaching our children the ideals of the Constitution. It would be all too easy to blame it solely on the education system.

Agreed. Someone like myself, I was taught about the ideals at home. Current events were discussed during meals from the time we kids sat at the table. We were raised knowing elections mattered, but more so the candidates. Problem is, without being aware of it, with each cycle the parties morphed into one. Compassionate conservatism is pseudo speak for Dem light. Moving towards the center is pseudo speak for Right light. Both parties are the same, which becomes clear with looking back.

The Tea Parties are looking back, along with the millions who now attend and the hundreds of millions that are listening.

CSM
07-21-2010, 09:21 AM
Agreed. Someone like myself, I was taught about the ideals at home. Current events were discussed during meals from the time we kids sat at the table. We were raised knowing elections mattered, but more so the candidates. Problem is, without being aware of it, with each cycle the parties morphed into one. Compassionate conservatism is pseudo speak for Dem light. Moving towards the center is pseudo speak for Right light. Both parties are the same, which becomes clear with looking back.

The Tea Parties are looking back, along with the millions who now attend and the hundreds of millions that are listening.

Hmmm, There are a few who are trying to actually revive the true spirit of America but they are awfully hard to find. If it were not for my amateur interest in history, I would probably be like many others; sitting around bemoaning my fate without even understanding the whys and wherefors.

I guess the big question is: How do we educate the population on the ideals held in our Constitution and re-instill the true spirit of freedom that our Founding Fathers had? The Tea Party is definitely a stir in the voting public but unless the citizens of this country are once again steeped in the very essence that founded this nation, I fear that the citizens of this country will go back to sleep not truly understanding the danger that threatens them.

Kathianne
07-21-2010, 09:30 AM
Hmmm, There are a few who are trying to actually revive the true spirit of America but they are awfully hard to find. If it were not for my amateur interest in history, I would probably be like many others; sitting around bemoaning my fate without even understanding the whys and wherefors.

I guess the big question is: How do we educate the population on the ideals held in our Constitution and re-instill the true spirit of freedom that our Founding Fathers had? The Tea Party is definitely a stir in the voting public but unless the citizens of this country are once again steeped in the very essence that founded this nation, I fear that the citizens of this country will go back to sleep not truly understanding the danger that threatens them.

I don't think it possible to put an awakened giant back to sleep until it's eaten. That's where my hope lies for the republic.

Most adults are never going to bother to read or learn about Hobbes, Locke, Johnson, Plato, Rousseau, the Federalist Papers, etc. But the kernel of some of the big thoughts? Yep. As much as I do not like Beck and regardless of his getting some things wrong, he will spur folks to google a few of these men. It's pretty hard to dismiss them when exposed.

More than that, the very nature of the current administration has brought upon the power elite a whirlwind they have lost control of. Contrary to some folks thoughts, it's not about race, (though the administration has been heavy handed with that), it's about power. They wrongly assumed they had control, that they could spit in the eye of the people's desires on health care. Bush tried that with immigration reform, that is when his numbers went down for the count, never to recover. He'd used up any political capital with the people then. Obama's managed to do that much earlier, we'll see how that goes.

DragonStryk72
07-21-2010, 09:53 AM
I agree. One has to wonder why we, as citizens, stopped teaching our children the ideals of the Constitution. It would be all too easy to blame it solely on the education system.

Simply put, I think it is a matter of arrogance, really. We've become complacent because there are no enemies left for us to be challenged by. when we were first starting out, we had to worry because you had the Spanish, the English, the French and the Dutch, all of whom would have swallowed us whole had we faltered. After that, you had the Civil War, when the country split over the arguments about slavery and States Rights. That took us a while to come out of, when WWI happened, and again we were tested, then we had The Great Depression, followed almost immediately by WWII.

It's after that time that we faltered. We were now one of the biggest nations in the world, and the most free. However, that was also when we first became afraid as a people really, with slogans like "better dead than red" emanating over the USSR, which failed eventually on it's own lack of merit. We tried to "fix" the world by beating back the forces of communism that didn't work anyway, and we started in on McCarthyism pretty hard, blacklisting those who spoke out against a government that had decided it was above the Constitution.

Then by the time we got out of that phase, it was a simple matter to really derail things

Kathianne
07-21-2010, 09:56 AM
Simply put, I think it is a matter of arrogance, really. We've become complacent because there are no enemies left for us to be challenged by. when we were first starting out, we had to worry because you had the Spanish, the English, the French and the Dutch, all of whom would have swallowed us whole had we faltered. After that, you had the Civil War, when the country split over the arguments about slavery and States Rights. That took us a while to come out of, when WWI happened, and again we were tested, then we had The Great Depression, followed almost immediately by WWII.

It's after that time that we faltered. We were now one of the biggest nations in the world, and the most free. However, that was also when we first became afraid as a people really, with slogans like "better dead than red" emanating over the USSR, which failed eventually on it's own lack of merit. We tried to "fix" the world by beating back the forces of communism that didn't work anyway, and we started in on McCarthyism pretty hard, blacklisting those who spoke out against a government that had decided it was above the Constitution.

Then by the time we got out of that phase, it was a simple matter to really derail things

Lack of participation and knowledge of events precedes WWII, by a long shot. Indeed, precedes any belief that US was a major world force, which certainly wasn't American thought until after WWI.

CSM
07-21-2010, 09:59 AM
Simply put, I think it is a matter of arrogance, really. We've become complacent because there are no enemies left for us to be challenged by. when we were first starting out, we had to worry because you had the Spanish, the English, the French and the Dutch, all of whom would have swallowed us whole had we faltered. After that, you had the Civil War, when the country split over the arguments about slavery and States Rights. That took us a while to come out of, when WWI happened, and again we were tested, then we had The Great Depression, followed almost immediately by WWII.

It's after that time that we faltered. We were now one of the biggest nations in the world, and the most free. However, that was also when we first became afraid as a people really, with slogans like "better dead than red" emanating over the USSR, which failed eventually on it's own lack of merit. We tried to "fix" the world by beating back the forces of communism that didn't work anyway, and we started in on McCarthyism pretty hard, blacklisting those who spoke out against a government that had decided it was above the Constitution.

Then by the time we got out of that phase, it was a simple matter to really derail things

True enough. however, despite the external threats to the nation, the citizen remained cognizant (and leary of) the federal government. I believe that once the government began to subsidize (read handout or bailout) private industry and individuals,then the dependency and real growth of federal government began. Those dependecies that were created liured the American people into the sense of entitlement we see so prevalent today.

Kathianne
07-21-2010, 10:08 AM
True enough. however, despite the external threats to the nation, the citizen remained cognizant (and leary of) the federal government. I believe that once the government began to subsidize (read handout or bailout) private industry and individuals,then the dependency and real growth of federal government began. Those dependecies that were created liured the American people into the sense of entitlement we see so prevalent today.

It's a matter of degrees. The idea of government with answers in any significant way coincides with Von Bismarck and the reunification of Germany. To forestall citizen complaints, social programs were established, (i.e., see liberal postings about health care by governments). The Meiji Revolution of Japan also encouraged the idea that government could be a force for necessary change in ways never contemplated before. This is something high school students should know about, but other than in AP classes, never are exposed to.

Both of these foreign changes occurred towards the end of 19th and early 20th C., along with some seminal writings of Marx, Darwin, etc., (mentioned in the topic article of OP). The academic elite were studying these events and theories integrating them into their political thinking. Thus the President of Princeton turned President, knew that he had the answers not only for the US, but for the World. No doubts, none.

Wilson wasn't the thinker he's often credited with being, more so the first elected believer in the change of thinking between 18th and 19th C.

DragonStryk72
07-21-2010, 10:14 AM
True enough. however, despite the external threats to the nation, the citizen remained cognizant (and leary of) the federal government. I believe that once the government began to subsidize (read handout or bailout) private industry and individuals,then the dependency and real growth of federal government began. Those dependecies that were created liured the American people into the sense of entitlement we see so prevalent today.

Actually, I would argue that it is because of the external threats to the nation that we remained cognizant and leary of the federal government. We believed that our way of life could be harmed in a direct way by these forces, and so worked harder to protect it. Nowadays? China's our only really competition, and their economy would collapse over night without us.

It wasn't until the various federal programs of The Great Depression that people even thought of the government taking care of them in rough times. It was always assumed up to that point that you made your own way, so best to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, and soldier on.

Kathianne
07-21-2010, 10:23 AM
Actually, I would argue that it is because of the external threats to the nation that we remained cognizant and leary of the federal government. We believed that our way of life could be harmed in a direct way by these forces, and so worked harder to protect it. Nowadays? China's our only really competition, and their economy would collapse over night without us.

It wasn't until the various federal programs of The Great Depression that people even thought of the government taking care of them in rough times. It was always assumed up to that point that you made your own way, so best to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, and soldier on.

I understand what you guys are saying, but the thinking that got the New Deal in place begins with the Square Deal president, giving the government the 'right' to set aside land for posterity. Mind you, I'm all in favor of the National Forest system, really. However the use of constitution's elastic clause, later commerce clause, then the income tax law, (again, 19th C), set the precedents for New Deal. As people accepted these stretches, things like SSI seemed OK, though many stood against. Like now, New Deal occurred during those times of discontent when things could have gone even worse.

CSM
07-21-2010, 10:41 AM
I understand what you guys are saying, but the thinking that got the New Deal in place begins with the Square Deal president, giving the government the 'right' to set aside land for posterity. Mind you, I'm all in favor of the National Forest system, really. However the use of constitution's elastic clause, later commerce clause, then the income tax law, (again, 19th C), set the precedents for New Deal. As people accepted these stretches, things like SSI seemed OK, though many stood against. Like now, New Deal occurred during those times of discontent when things could have gone even worse.

Very good points. Without the understanding of how all this came about most people only have a vague notion that "something is wrong" and are not quite sure what to do about "it". That, I think, is what is wrong with the Tea Party movement. I believe we are seeing the current elite (admittedly mostly Republicans) trying to coopt the Tea Party movement and there are damn few who understand that NEITHER pilitical party of special interest group will remove or even address the public's concerns. A thought in passing: the current political parties ARE special interest groups!

revelarts
07-21-2010, 10:45 AM
This is one of the best threads I've read here.
Very encouraging!
:dance:

CSM
07-21-2010, 11:03 AM
This is one of the best threads I've read here.
Very encouraging!
:dance:

It happens occassionally. These types of threads are the ones I enjoy the most, to be sure.

Kathianne
07-21-2010, 04:36 PM
Very good points. Without the understanding of how all this came about most people only have a vague notion that "something is wrong" and are not quite sure what to do about "it". That, I think, is what is wrong with the Tea Party movement. I believe we are seeing the current elite (admittedly mostly Republicans) trying to coopt the Tea Party movement and there are damn few who understand that NEITHER pilitical party of special interest group will remove or even address the public's concerns. A thought in passing: the current political parties ARE special interest groups!

Agree with what you are saying, however a couple points:
1. Realistically most people are not going to sit down and read Leviathan or The Republic or Two Treatises of Government and on and on. I'm not saying they couldn't, but even under force of grades, most don't. Same with Democracy In America, something which should be required reading in 9th grade.

2. The ideas though, those are something that can and are being shared by Beck, which personally boggles my mind. No, I'm not an elitist, but he's an entertainer not a historian. So boggled mind or not, good interpretations or not, he is getting the job done to a degree that teachers did not with his audience. The Tea Parties too can use the same tactics of education. The people that go are influencers on those that don't but 'know something is wrong.'

3. Many that are exposed to these seminal writers will find out more. They may sit down and read what was written or just find some analysis of what the men wrote. In other words, find out for themselves what they should have learned in school, information that was read by the Founders, and influenced such as Alexis de Tocqueville and the Marquis de Lafayette.

4. Once people understand upon what the Declaration and Constitution were based, they can more easily understand how history in US tumbled forth, including the arguments between such as Hamilton and Jefferson. They can have the context to understand the importance of Jackson's thinking and presidency, and the Civil War. How Lincoln's action during that time, led TR to the places that he went, both outside of Constitutional boundaries. And on and on...

5. Forearmed with some sense of philosophy and history of what's gone before, people can form thinking for today. I said earlier, I hope at this site, that we are in the process of reinventing the wheel, it's been at least 3 generations since American exceptionalism was taught or even hinted at in schools and most universities.

CSM
07-22-2010, 06:24 AM
Agree with what you are saying, however a couple points:
1. Realistically most people are not going to sit down and read Leviathan or The Republic or Two Treatises of Government and on and on. I'm not saying they couldn't, but even under force of grades, most don't. Same with Democracy In America, something which should be required reading in 9th grade.

2. The ideas though, those are something that can and are being shared by Beck, which personally boggles my mind. No, I'm not an elitist, but he's an entertainer not a historian. So boggled mind or not, good interpretations or not, he is getting the job done to a degree that teachers did not with his audience. The Tea Parties too can use the same tactics of education. The people that go are influencers on those that don't but 'know something is wrong.'

3. Many that are exposed to these seminal writers will find out more. They may sit down and read what was written or just find some analysis of what the men wrote. In other words, find out for themselves what they should have learned in school, information that was read by the Founders, and influenced such as Alexis de Tocqueville and the Marquis de Lafayette.

4. Once people understand upon what the Declaration and Constitution were based, they can more easily understand how history in US tumbled forth, including the arguments between such as Hamilton and Jefferson. They can have the context to understand the importance of Jackson's thinking and presidency, and the Civil War. How Lincoln's action during that time, led TR to the places that he went, both outside of Constitutional boundaries. And on and on...

5. Forearmed with some sense of philosophy and history of what's gone before, people can form thinking for today. I said earlier, I hope at this site, that we are in the process of reinventing the wheel, it's been at least 3 generations since American exceptionalism was taught or even hinted at in schools and most universities.

Great points! They incite me to re-read a lot of the writings you mention. I am old and tend to forget a lot of what I have read in my "youth". As for Beck, at least he is trying to get folks to gather the facts and history for themselves. I do not always agree with the intent of his political analysis but find his examination of past writers fascinating.

As I read the Federalist Papers it strikes me that the language used seems rather stilted but in reality, that is how people spoke and wrote then. I base that observation on having read not just the literary works of the day but also personal letters and such written by simple soldiers to loved ones and friends. Such eloquence found in those writings is hard to come by these days.

In any case, thank you for the very interesting discussion. Your points have given me much food for thought.

Kathianne
07-22-2010, 11:38 AM
Looks like a good book to recommend:


http://i30.tinypic.com/2uig2ag.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1439133638?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwviolentkicom&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1439133638

Kathianne
07-22-2010, 11:59 AM
Another article that addresses the ruling class ignoring the will of the people:

http://reason.com/archives/2010/07/21/obamas-lack-of-faith

A partial list:


...Was it the administration's faith in the wisdom of the American parent that persuaded it to shut down the voucher program in Washington, D.C., and continue the left's decades-long campaign denying school choice for kids and parents? Or was that just faith in public-sector unions?

Was faith in American industry behind the Democrats' support of a stimulus bill that was predicated almost entirely on preserving swollen government spending at the expense of private-sector growth?

Is this hallowed faith in the citizenry also what compels the administration to dictate what kind of car we will be driving in the future, what kind of energy we will be filling these "cars" with, and what amounts of that energy will be acceptable?

Is faith in American know-how why Washington funnels billions of tax dollars each year to its hand-picked industry favorites rather than allow the best and brightest to—please pardon the pun—organically figure out what the most sensible energy policy is, as we have in every other sector?

It must be that deep confidence in conscientious Americans that persuades the left to fight against the rights of gun owners who want nothing more than to defend life and property.

The same faith in Americans surely precipitates the administration's defense of censorship (even book banning) to ensure that the citizenry is protected from the despicable reach of political ads funded by corporations. People, you see, are too gullible and too uninformed to withstand the force of Fox News—much less Wal-Mart.

Similarly, that faith has led to the 20-year explosion of paternalistic regulations (often with the help of Republicans) that propose to regulate everything from the size of candy to tanning salons to fast-food restaurants to the pressure in your shower head. A faith that the American citizen has the self-control of a deprived toddler.

It was faith in the American people that led to health care legislation that denies you the right to buy insurance outside of state lines or have any useful portability or even enjoy the same tax break that corporations are afforded. The left has so much faith in Americans that it has to force you to purchase a government-approved plan...