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abso
09-28-2010, 04:33 AM
America's Holy Crusade against the Muslim World


by Michel Chossudovsky


Parts from the Articles:
1-We have reached a decisive transition in the evolution of US military doctrine. The "Global War on Terrorism" (GWOT) directed against Al Qaeda launched in the wake of 9/11 is evolving towards a full-fledged "war of religion", a "holy crusade" directed against the Muslim World.

2-While "all Muslims are not terrorists", all terrorist attacks (planned or realized) are reported by the media as being perpetrated by Muslims.

3-At no moment is the issue of atrocities committed against several million Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan considered a terrorist act by the occupation forces.

4-The objective is to sustain the illusion that "America is under attack" and that Muslims across the land are complicit and supportive of "Islamic terrorism".

5-The demonization of Muslims sustains a global military agenda. Under the American inquisition, Washington has a self-proclaimed holy mandate to extirpate Islam and "spread democracy" throughout the world.

6-What we are dealing with is an outright and blind acceptance of the structures of power and political authority. America's holy crusade against the Muslim World is an outright criminal act directed against millions of people. It is a war of economic conquest.

7-More than 60% of the World's oil and natural gas reserves lie in Muslim lands. "The Battle for Oil" waged by the US NATO Israel military alliance requires the demonization of the inhabitants of those countries which possess these vast reserves of oil and natural gas. (See Michel Chossudovsky, The Demonization of Muslims and the Battle for Oil (http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4347), Global Research, January 4, 2007)


Full Article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20818

Agnapostate
09-28-2010, 06:00 AM
GWB's most loyal constituency were evangelical and fundamentalist Christians who believe that a conflict with Islamic parties is a sign of the coming end times, which will include the Rapture, Great Tribulation, and Armageddon. They see Middle Eastern conflicts as fulfillments of various biblical prophecies, yet Muslims are the only ones condemned as religious fanatics in the mass media, despite the fact that so many insurgents and terrorists have pretty understandable qualms with U.S. governmental support of Israeli governmental policies and don't act out of puritan sentiments. Didn't the 9/11 terrorists hit up the strip clubs in Vegas?

Noir
09-28-2010, 06:33 AM
If I may ask Abso, do you consider the fact that America and 'the West' (eventually) did it's best to stop a genocide occurring in east Timor as an act of aggression against Islam?

abso
09-28-2010, 06:42 AM
GWB's most loyal constituency were evangelical and fundamentalist Christians who believe that a conflict with Islamic parties is a sign of the coming end times, which will include the Rapture, Great Tribulation, and Armageddon. They see Middle Eastern conflicts as fulfillments of various biblical prophecies, yet Muslims are the only ones condemned as religious fanatics in the mass media, despite the fact that so many insurgents and terrorists have pretty understandable qualms with U.S. governmental support of Israeli governmental policies and don't act out of puritan sentiments. Didn't the 9/11 terrorists hit up the strip clubs in Vegas?

i dont know anything about an attack on a strip club in Vegas, i will try and read about it later, but until then i can talk about it...


If I may ask Abso, do you consider the fact that America and 'the West' (eventually) did it's best to stop a genocide occurring in east Timor as an act of aggression against Islam?

again, i dont know anything about the genocide in east timer, so i cant discuss it, i only discuss what i am aware of, i will read about it later.

Noir
09-28-2010, 06:47 AM
again, i dont know anything about the genocide in east timer, so i cant discuss it, i only discuss what i am aware of, i will read about it later.

Oh please, read it and read well, the basic idea is 'You stopped us from committing genocide, by taking an Islamic republic from us, for this we will never forgive you'

i.e. If you don't want to upset this Islamists, or make yourself look like a crusader that they have the right (and duty) to attack, then you mist be willin to let them commit genocide at will. Nice.

Agnapostate
09-28-2010, 06:49 AM
i dont know anything about an attack on a strip club in Vegas, i will try and read about it later, but until then i can talk about it...

No, I meant that they went there:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hit+up

http://articles.sfgate.com/2001-10-04/news/17621377_1_marwan-al-shehhi-big-spenders-las-vegas

abso
09-28-2010, 06:58 AM
No, I meant that they went there:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hit+up

http://articles.sfgate.com/2001-10-04/news/17621377_1_marwan-al-shehhi-big-spenders-las-vegas


sorry for the misunderstanding, excuse me for my poor english language.

anyway, the fact that they went there or not, wont make them any more evil or stupid than killing thousands of people, actually your post proves that the entire operation is not about islam and radical muslims, because if the men were there then they are not religious at all, as no religious muslim will ever step in a strip club, or drink alcohol at all.

so your post proves that they are not true muslims in their heart, and they dont listen to the teachings of Islam, thanks for it. :salute:

Agnapostate
09-28-2010, 07:04 AM
Yes, that was the point. Osama bin Laden, whatever his moral failings, is consistent in his self-imposed puritanical asceticism. After being born to the second-wealthiest family in Saudi Arabia, with a billionaire fortune and a multi-millionaire in his own right simply by virtue of inheritance, he voluntarily chose to live in a mountain cave in Afghanistan even when all the luxuries of Pashtun hospitality were offered to him. He seemed to enjoy volleyball, but he disapproved of his sons going into town to get Cokes. That's how fanatical he was.

Some of these people involved in the attacks simply didn't have that puritan edge, and the obvious implication is that they weren't motivated by conservative "moralist" principles. They were motivated by ideological opposition to U.S. governmental financial support of Israeli governmental policies.

abso
09-28-2010, 07:14 AM
Oh please, read it and read well, the basic idea is 'You stopped us from committing genocide, by taking an Islamic republic from us, for this we will never forgive you'

i.e. If you don't want to upset this Islamists, or make yourself look like a crusader that they have the right (and duty) to attack, then you mist be willin to let them commit genocide at will. Nice.

you are talking about islamists as if you already fully understand them, anyway, islam doesnt have anything to do with genocide, if there is a genocide in a place, then there must be a reason for it, one man corrupted heart can bring the next world war to the world, as i recal it was just one men leading germany that initiated the WWII leading to the death of more than 60 million peoples, so its not the religion, its us, its us who hate otheres for stupid reasons, so when a genocide happens, dont look at the religion that is spread in this area, just look at the man who is in control of this genocide, and you will find the corrupted heart, but his religion doesnt matter, only his actions does.

Nukeman
09-28-2010, 07:17 AM
Ok abso, Here is my problem with your taling points. Every time someone who proclaims themselves to be a Muslim and commits heinous acts YOU say they are not a true Muslim. Obviously they believe themselves to be... What right do you have to say they are not. You are after all only following what YOU belive to be Islam and they are following what THEY belive to be Islam.

Here is the primary flaw with Islam YOU ahve NO set doctrine only thousands of interpretations.....

abso
09-28-2010, 07:26 AM
Yes, that was the point. Osama bin Laden, whatever his moral failings, is consistent in his self-imposed puritanical asceticism. After being born to the second-wealthiest family in Saudi Arabia, with a billionaire fortune and a multi-millionaire in his own right simply by virtue of inheritance, he voluntarily chose to live in a mountain cave in Afghanistan even when all the luxuries of Pashtun hospitality were offered to him. He seemed to enjoy volleyball, but he disapproved of his sons going into town to get Cokes. That's how fanatical he was.

Some of these people involved in the attacks simply didn't have that puritan edge, and the obvious implication is that they weren't motivated by conservative "moralist" principles. They were motivated by ideological opposition to U.S. governmental financial support of Israeli governmental policies.

Anger can always conquer weak human minds, and they were angry people who was made to believe wrong ideas, killing civilians of other nations wont bring back our dead civilains, only making peace will prevent any furthur deaths of our people and other's people, but they just wanted revenge, i understand their motives, i myself disagree with many USA actions and policies, but i strongly disagree with their actions, i can disagree with the opposite side, but that doesnt mean that i have to kill him.

i just mean that i can understand the motives of a husband who kills the killer of his wife, but i can never understand why would he just go and kill the brother of the killer just because he cant reach the killer in prison, thats what those terrorists did, because they couldnt attack the american army, then went and killed the solider's families in USA, thats what i cant understand.


Ok abso, Here is my problem with your taling points. Every time someone who proclaims themselves to be a Muslim and commits heinous acts YOU say they are not a true Muslim. Obviously they believe themselves to be... What right do you have to say they are not. You are after all only following what YOU belive to be Islam and they are following what THEY belive to be Islam.

Here is the primary flaw with Islam YOU ahve NO set doctrine only thousands of interpretations.....

how many bibles do you have ?,

have you ever heared of two different Qurans ???

we just have one book, and there is no second to it.

whoever understand any religion to be calling for hatred or killings, he is the wrong one, and i am talking about any religion at all.

but when someone understand any religion to be calling for forgiveness and mercy and goodness, thats the good guy.

so who will you prefer, the good guy or the bad guy ???

and yes i have every right to say that they are not true muslims, being called a muslim in the ID, doesnt mean that you are true muslim, but following the teaching of islam is the only proof that you are a muslim.

and i already posted some verses from Quran, and i said that Quran forbid killings of unarmed civilians anywhere, even during the time of war, and even inside the war zone.

so i will let you judge, when the Quran tells muslims not to kill unarmed civilians, and a muslim goes to kill them, will you call him true muslim or not ???

Gaffer
09-28-2010, 07:32 AM
So abso, do you ever search for people who have good things to say about America or Israel? You talk about not being hateful and tolerance, but all you ever post is hate speech from self hating liberals.

You posted the article and always want to debate, so what do you think? Do you feel there is a crusade being waged? Do you think this author has any truth in his writings. To me it looks like the rantings of a a Bush hating liberal.

Noir
09-28-2010, 07:32 AM
you are talking about islamists as if you already fully understand them, anyway, islam doesnt have anything to do with genocide, if there is a genocide in a place, then there must be a reason for it, one man corrupted heart can bring the next world war to the world, as i recal it was just one men leading germany that initiated the WWII leading to the death of more than 60 million peoples, so its not the religion, its us, its us who hate otheres for stupid reasons, so when a genocide happens, dont look at the religion that is spread in this area, just look at the man who is in control of this genocide, and you will find the corrupted heart, but his religion doesnt matter, only his actions does.

And if the action was done in the name of religon? Without which no such action would of taken place.


how many bibles do you have ?,

have you ever heared of two different Qurans ???

we just have one book, and there is no second to it.

whoever understand any religion to be calling for hatred or killings, he is the wrong one, and i am talking about any religion at all.

but when someone understand any religion to be calling for forgiveness and mercy and goodness, thats the good guy.

so who will you prefer, the good guy or the bad guy ???

and yes i have every right to say that they are not true muslims, being called a muslim in the ID, doesnt mean that you are true muslim, but following the teaching of islam is the only proof that you are a muslim.

and i already posted some verses from Quran, and i said that Quran forbid killings of unarmed civilians anywhere, even during the time of war, and even inside the war zone.

so i will let you judge, when the Quran tells muslims not to kill unarmed civilians, and a muslim goes to kill them, will you call him true muslim or not ???


I have discussed this on several Muslim forums, where your view would be in the vast minority. The grey area comes from how you describe an enemy combatant. Don't pretend it's black and White, cus it's not.

abso
09-28-2010, 07:44 AM
So abso, do you ever search for people who have good things to say about America or Israel? You talk about not being hateful and tolerance, but all you ever post is hate speech from self hating liberals.

You posted the article and always want to debate, so what do you think? Do you feel there is a crusade being waged? Do you think this author has any truth in his writings. To me it looks like the rantings of a a Bush hating liberal.

i myself like USA very much, i like the way of living in USA, i like its people, i had talked to many americans before, and they were my friends, i never hated americans at all, and i wish to live in USA, and i will try to travel there to study for M.Sc and Ph.D when i finish my college if i could.

and why would i be talking here, with you right now if i hate USA !!!

and why would i search for articles about people who says good things about USA, are we here in a debate forum about the wrongs of each side, or are we here to post poetry about loving each others nations !!!

we are here to find the mistakes and debate about it, not to brag about our countries good sides.


i believe that there is some truthes in it, or else, can you tell me which point is wrong ?

for me, its my role to post such articles, for you, its your role to tell me which points are right and which points are wrong, but by telling me that its all nonsense and there is not a single truth in it, you will lose your credibility, because it cant be all wrong, so, you tell me, which parts are wrong, and which parts really describe the reality.

and thank god that this time you said:
"hate speech from self hating liberals."
cause normally you would say that its hate speech coming from me, while all i do is post it, not write it.

thanks for participating in the topic, and i am waiting for you to tell me whats wrong and right in the article.


I have discussed this on several Muslim forums, where your view would be in the vast minority. The grey area comes from how you describe an enemy combatant. Don't pretend it's black and White, cus it's not.

nope, you may not understand islam, because all you know about it may have come from strict muslims or some muslims with radical ideas, but i assure you, that right now, you are talking with a moderate muslim who know exactly what his religions tells him to do.

i certainly know that my religion wants me to be good man and never to harm anyone.

and no, there is no grey area in Islam, so none can interpret the 911 attack as a rightful responce, and as a justified one, as Quran tells us clrearly that those kind of actions are condemened and that who ever do them, have lost his righteous path, and have clouded his judgement with wrong ideas from people who have lost their mind.

for me, i consider anyone who says that 911 attack was right and justified, is crazy and had lost his mind and his common sense.

and any american who think that Islam really approve those actions, i think he should think again, because he has lost his common sense too, there is no religion in the world, that will allow such a tragedy.


And if the action was done in the name of religon? Without which no such action would of taken place.

its very easy for me to go and kill someone, then say that i have done it for Noir, would that make you guilty !!!, you have never asked me to kill anyone and never will, so for me to say that you said so, doesnt mean you said it, use your own mind, there is no religion that will tell its followers to kill.

Noir
09-28-2010, 07:58 AM
its very easy for me to go and kill someone, then say that i have done it for Noir, would that make you guilty !!!, you have never asked me to kill anyone and never will, so for me to say that you said so, doesnt mean you said it, use your own mind, there is no religion that will tell its followers to kill.

So you think these men are killing others, along with themselves, and *blaming* it on Islam for a laugh?


nope, you may not understand islam, because all you know about it may have come from strict muslims or some muslims with radical ideas, but i assure you, that right now, you are talking with a moderate muslim who know exactly what his religions tells him to do.

i certainly know that my religion wants me to be good man and never to harm anyone.

and no, there is no grey area in Islam, so none can interpret the 911 attack as a rightful responce, and as a justified one, as Quran tells us clrearly that those kind of actions are condemened and that who ever do them, have lost his righteous path, and have clouded his judgement with wrong ideas from people who have lost their mind.

for me, i consider anyone who says that 911 attack was right and justified, is crazy and had lost his mind and his common sense.

and any american who think that Islam really approve those actions, i think he should think again, because he has lost his common sense too, there is no religion in the world, that will allow such a tragedy.

Well first off iv talked to many moderate Muslims, but assume as your will wants you to.

Secondly, you many want to look at what your god had done in his name in the OT for the old 'religon would never stand for such a thing'

Thridy, and most importantly, are there exceptions mentioned in the quaran to 'thou shall not kill?'

Agnapostate
09-28-2010, 08:05 AM
Here is the primary flaw with Islam YOU ahve NO set doctrine only thousands of interpretations.....

Such an Islam-specific problem too. :laugh:

abso
09-28-2010, 08:58 AM
So you think these men are killing others, along with themselves, and *blaming* it on Islam for a laugh?

i already said that its because they have been brought up on a very wrong ideas implanted in them by radical people, killing thousands of people is not a joke.

Nukeman
09-28-2010, 09:04 AM
Such an Islam-specific problem too. :laugh:
Never said it was only Islam but since that is the topic at hand!!!!!!!!!! Try to keep up!!!!!!

Gaffer
09-28-2010, 10:14 AM
America's Holy Crusade against the Muslim World


by Michel Chossudovsky


Parts from the Articles:
1-We have reached a decisive transition in the evolution of US military doctrine. The "Global War on Terrorism" (GWOT) directed against Al Qaeda launched in the wake of 9/11 is evolving towards a full-fledged "war of religion", a "holy crusade" directed against the Muslim World.

False, There is nothing crusader about the war. And the government has made it clear they are only going after radicals. If they were truly out to destroy islam then every muslim country would be bombed and muslims in this country imprisoned.

2-While "all Muslims are not terrorists", all terrorist attacks (planned or realized) are reported by the media as being perpetrated by Muslims.

Actually the media often fails to mention the muslim faith of many of these perpetrators. And they are portrayed as individual nuts acting on their own.

3-At no moment is the issue of atrocities committed against several million Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan considered a terrorist act by the occupation forces.

An outright lie. A few incidences does not make for millions of atrocities, and when the people were caught they were punished.

4-The objective is to sustain the illusion that "America is under attack" and that Muslims across the land are complicit and supportive of "Islamic terrorism".

That's not what the media portrays here. They go out of their way to say how peaceful and kind the muslims are. Again he gets it all wrong.

5-The demonization of Muslims sustains a global military agenda. Under the American inquisition, Washington has a self-proclaimed holy mandate to extirpate Islam and "spread democracy" throughout the world.

I don't know where he gets this holy mandate crap. Bush has been gone from office for two years. The dark lord is anything but holy. I get the impressions this is all about Bush hatred.

6-What we are dealing with is an outright and blind acceptance of the structures of power and political authority. America's holy crusade against the Muslim World is an outright criminal act directed against millions of people. It is a war of economic conquest.

Again the Bush hatred shows through. There is no holy anything involving the US government. He's an appeaser and an apologist. A true dhimmi.

7-More than 60% of the World's oil and natural gas reserves lie in Muslim lands. "The Battle for Oil" waged by the US NATO Israel military alliance requires the demonization of the inhabitants of those countries which possess these vast reserves of oil and natural gas. (See Michel Chossudovsky, The Demonization of Muslims and the Battle for Oil (http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4347), Global Research, January 4, 2007)


Full Article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20818

Absolute trash. He doesn't understand history, geology or geopolitical situations. He's a Bush hating liberal nut job. Abso you cannot comprehend the hatred that runs through the veins of these guys that write this crap. They are as obsessed as a radical muslim.

abso
09-28-2010, 10:58 AM
Absolute trash. He doesn't understand history, geology or geopolitical situations. He's a Bush hating liberal nut job. Abso you cannot comprehend the hatred that runs through the veins of these guys that write this crap. They are as obsessed as a radical muslim.

thanks very much for your reply, i appreciate it, i wish if you can reply always in this manner, with no aggression, i have nothing to say about your reply, cause of course you know about bush adminstration and their motives more than me.

i dont know if he hates Bush or not, but i can only agree with him about one thing, that Bush did alot of wrong things, that harmed USA alot, what he did, never gained USA anything except hatred of alot of people, wars just breeds hatred, i am sure you agree with me on that, and Bush thought that the american economy can sustain as many wars as he wish, and he never though that by spending that much on wars, he will end up by destroying the economy.

i can understand his motives, but he could really have done much better work if he spent all those billions of tax money on improving the americans standard of living.

jimnyc
09-28-2010, 05:12 PM
Abso - is there anything in the Quran or Hadith relating to being able to strike a woman? What about infidels, anything in those readings about them? Why do some of the worlds most prominent muslim clerics, and muslim state leaders, quote from these readings and speak of infidels and killing? If Islam is such a peaceful and loving religion as you say, and those that kill in the name of Islam are perverting the religion, then why do so many prominent muslims call for death of infidels? Why do millions of muslims still subscribe to the hadith and shariah law? Maybe in your little corner of utopia in Egypt things are different, but don't act like Islam isn't teaching this shit in tons of other countries.

Sir Evil
09-28-2010, 05:34 PM
i can understand his motives, but he could really have done much better work if he spent all those billions of tax money on improving the americans standard of living.

Could have saved the billions by just dropping a bomb to wipe out the entire middle east and do away with all ya dirty bastards at once, Instant peace in the middle east! :laugh2:

Noir
09-28-2010, 05:37 PM
i already said that its because they have been brought up on a very wrong ideas implanted in them by radical people, killing thousands of people is not a joke.

Right, and the quaran was the weapon of choice to brainwash these men into wanting to commit mass murder, no?

Also, you missed this earlier, and I think it's important; are there exceptions mentioned in the quaran to 'thou shall not kill?'

BoogyMan
09-28-2010, 05:55 PM
I am sure there are some that are like that but your generalization is wholly unproven and for the most part actually unprovable.


GWB's most loyal constituency were evangelical and fundamentalist Christians who believe that a conflict with Islamic parties is a sign of the coming end times, which will include the Rapture, Great Tribulation, and Armageddon. They see Middle Eastern conflicts as fulfillments of various biblical prophecies, yet Muslims are the only ones condemned as religious fanatics in the mass media, despite the fact that so many insurgents and terrorists have pretty understandable qualms with U.S. governmental support of Israeli governmental policies and don't act out of puritan sentiments. Didn't the 9/11 terrorists hit up the strip clubs in Vegas?

Sweetchuck
09-28-2010, 09:57 PM
Muslims have been crusading for centuries. Yes, Christians did also but we got over that.

Right around the time we stopped living in caves and invented plumbing.

Here's the difference though, while Christianity has evolved into more of a civilized culture, Islam has not fully. Sure there are kooky Christian sects, you see them on the news every couple months but not to the degree that you see with orthodox Islam.

abso
09-28-2010, 10:47 PM
Abso - is there anything in the Quran or Hadith relating to being able to strike a woman? What about infidels, anything in those readings about them? Why do some of the worlds most prominent muslim clerics, and muslim state leaders, quote from these readings and speak of infidels and killing? If Islam is such a peaceful and loving religion as you say, and those that kill in the name of Islam are perverting the religion, then why do so many prominent muslims call for death of infidels? Why do millions of muslims still subscribe to the hadith and shariah law? Maybe in your little corner of utopia in Egypt things are different, but don't act like Islam isn't teaching this shit in tons of other countries.

It isnt Islam that is teaching, its just the people that teaches Islam, they can alternate its laws for their own benifit, if a priest is tells you that its okay to kill, that doesnt mean that christianity really allows killing, its just him who have mistaken and have guided you into the wrong path, thats what happen with religious terrorists in every religion, they are thinking that by killing they are serving their own religion, while all they are doing is destroying every single foundation that the religion is built upon, they are destroying the main core of any religion, which is forgiveness and goodness and good deeds.

anyway, try to focus on the subject of this topic, we arent discussing the laws of Islam now, we are discussing the war on terrorism and if it is being evolved into a more general war against all the muslims, so state your opinion about that, and if you have any opinion about Islam laws, i think that i opened a topic for that issue in the religions section.

abso
09-28-2010, 10:53 PM
Right, and the quaran was the weapon of choice to brainwash these men into wanting to commit mass murder, no?

Also, you missed this earlier, and I think it's important; are there exceptions mentioned in the quaran to 'thou shall not kill?'


you can kill who killed someone, if you can prove it on him with witnesses.
you can kill at wars, only armed men who attacks you, but killing of civilians if greatly forbidden.

Noir
09-28-2010, 11:08 PM
you can kill who killed someone, if you can prove it on him with witnesses.
you can kill at wars, only armed men who attacks you, but killing of civilians if greatly forbidden.

Right, so you can justifiably kill. Now then, look at the title that you typed for this thread, Americas holy crusade eh? I'm sure you can see where lines are starting to blur, and grey areas come into being, when you yourself, a self-proclaimed moderate are declaring that Americans are on a holy crusade.

abso
09-28-2010, 11:15 PM
Right, so you can justifiably kill. Now then, look at the title that you typed for this thread, Americas holy crusade eh? I'm sure you can see where lines are starting to blur, and grey areas come into being, when you yourself, a self-proclaimed moderate are declaring that Americans are on a holy crusade.

nope, i never declared that, i already said, that i post articles not write them, i post them then read the opinions before i form my own, i have to know the other side and its opinion, because without having understanding to both sides i will be forming ignorant opinions, i cant believe the writer without knowing the opinion of those who disagree with him, who are an this case the people at that forum.

SassyLady
09-29-2010, 01:33 AM
anyway, try to focus on the subject of this topic, we arent discussing the laws of Islam now, we are discussing the war on terrorism and if it is being evolved into a more general war against all the muslims, so state your opinion about that, and if you have any opinion about Islam laws, i think that i opened a topic for that issue in the religions section.

No, I do not think the war on terrorism is escalating into a war against Muslims.

I do, however, believe terrorists want people to believe it is a religious war, because it helps them recruit new members for their terrorist organizations. If the terrorists can make people, like yourself, believe America is waging a religious war against Islam, or Muslims, then you've become one of their recruits (someone to hate America) ... even if it's just posting BS articles on a forum like this one.

jimnyc
09-29-2010, 06:54 AM
It isnt Islam that is teaching, its just the people that teaches Islam, they can alternate its laws for their own benifit, if a priest is tells you that its okay to kill, that doesnt mean that christianity really allows killing, its just him who have mistaken and have guided you into the wrong path, thats what happen with religious terrorists in every religion, they are thinking that by killing they are serving their own religion, while all they are doing is destroying every single foundation that the religion is built upon, they are destroying the main core of any religion, which is forgiveness and goodness and good deeds.

anyway, try to focus on the subject of this topic, we arent discussing the laws of Islam now, we are discussing the war on terrorism and if it is being evolved into a more general war against all the muslims, so state your opinion about that, and if you have any opinion about Islam laws, i think that i opened a topic for that issue in the religions section.

You did not answer my questions. Is there anything in the Hadith or Quran about being able to strike women, or kill infidels, or anything about infidels and what should be done to them? What about apostates? What does your religion state should happen to them? There are MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS in other countries than Egypt who still subscribe to what I'm getting at. Deny it all you like, it won't make it go away. I hang with a few muslims EVERY SINGLE DAY and they tell me point blank in arabic what is stated - just that they don't personally subscribe to what is written, but many millions in several muslim countries do. So, please, don't lie. Admit that Egypt is different, and there are other countries that do believe to the T what is written in the Quran, Hadith and under Sharia law. And quite frankly, they are animals. People that use a book to show their superiority over women as an excuse to abuse them should be put down like animals. People that subscribe to shariah law to systematically abuse and kill people should be put down like animals. People that call for the death of infidels for no other reason than they are not muslim should be put down like animals. People who call for death to those who simply want to convert from the muslim faith should be put down like animals.

And again, deny this all you like, but these are FACTS from quite a few muslim countries around the world where millions and millions of muslims follow, and their state leaders and clerics sing these praises to the people. And then you wonder why others want to destroy these people. They are damn animals if they subscribe to this shit!

jimnyc
09-29-2010, 04:40 PM
Interesting that when abso is presented with facts and/or difficult questions - he disappears from those threads.

The hadith is to be the spoken word of his beloved muhammed. The quran is the holiest book of all to muslims. abso doesn't want to recognize that both books contain the absoLUTE garbage I presented. Don't even get me started again about the MILLIONS of his brethren that still subscribe to shariah law - but he'll proclaim EVERY negative thing we bring up to these people not being "real" muslims. I guess millions and millions and millions of muslims around the world are just pretending.

abso
09-29-2010, 05:25 PM
You did not answer my questions. Is there anything in the Hadith or Quran about being able to strike women, or kill infidels, or anything about infidels and what should be done to them? What about apostates? What does your religion state should happen to them? There are MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS in other countries than Egypt who still subscribe to what I'm getting at. Deny it all you like, it won't make it go away. I hang with a few muslims EVERY SINGLE DAY and they tell me point blank in arabic what is stated - just that they don't personally subscribe to what is written, but many millions in several muslim countries do. So, please, don't lie. Admit that Egypt is different, and there are other countries that do believe to the T what is written in the Quran, Hadith and under Sharia law. And quite frankly, they are animals. People that use a book to show their superiority over women as an excuse to abuse them should be put down like animals. People that subscribe to shariah law to systematically abuse and kill people should be put down like animals. People that call for the death of infidels for no other reason than they are not muslim should be put down like animals. People who call for death to those who simply want to convert from the muslim faith should be put down like animals.

And again, deny this all you like, but these are FACTS from quite a few muslim countries around the world where millions and millions of muslims follow, and their state leaders and clerics sing these praises to the people. And then you wonder why others want to destroy these people. They are damn animals if they subscribe to this shit!

i already said, post your questions about Islam in the right topic, and i will answer them all, and yes, i have answers to all of your three questions, post them where i stated that i will answer anything about Islam.

i will answer anything about Islam when you post it in its right topic, but i will not engage in side discussions about Islam in every topic that i start or participate in it, please focus on the topic ahead of you, and stop asking right questions in wrong places.

jimnyc
09-29-2010, 05:55 PM
i already said, post your questions about Islam in the right topic, and i will answer them all, and yes, i have answers to all of your three questions, post them where i stated that i will answer anything about Islam.

i will answer anything about Islam when you post it in its right topic, but i will not engage in side discussions about Islam in every topic that i start or participate in it, please focus on the topic ahead of you, and stop asking right questions in wrong places.

First off, I will post whatever I want and wherever I want. You are just dodging. I don't ask questions I know the answers to already. You don't want to entertain them as you know damn well your holy books show superiority over women, the ability to strike them if they defy you, that infidels should be put to death, apostates should be put to death - and again, let's not discuss the millions of muslims who adhere to shariah law and love it - while it's a system of abuse, specifically against women.

abso
09-29-2010, 06:31 PM
First off, I will post whatever I want and wherever I want. You are just dodging. I don't ask questions I know the answers to already. You don't want to entertain them as you know damn well your holy books show superiority over women, the ability to strike them if they defy you, that infidels should be put to death, apostates should be put to death - and again, let's not discuss the millions of muslims who adhere to shariah law and love it - while it's a system of abuse, specifically against women.

you know nothing about islam, and nothing of what you said is true, you dont tell someone about his religion, you ask respectfully and wait for answers, i am the muslim, not you, so if you want to live on believing this wrong ideas of you, then there is no difference between you and radical muslims who hate the west because of the wrong ideas that they have about it, you hate Islam because you have learned very wrong ideas about it, if you are willing to know it better, then ask me and i will answer, but if you have no intention in listening, then dont waste my time, i dont have time to reply to every useless post which is directed against me and my religion, i have to study alot this days, so make your post respectful or dont expect any answer from me at all.

jimnyc
09-29-2010, 08:09 PM
you know nothing about islam, and nothing of what you said is true, you dont tell someone about his religion, you ask respectfully and wait for answers, i am the muslim, not you, so if you want to live on believing this wrong ideas of you, then there is no difference between you and radical muslims who hate the west because of the wrong ideas that they have about it, you hate Islam because you have learned very wrong ideas about it, if you are willing to know it better, then ask me and i will answer, but if you have no intention in listening, then dont waste my time, i dont have time to reply to every useless post which is directed against me and my religion, i have to study alot this days, so make your post respectful or dont expect any answer from me at all.

I know plenty about muslims, my best friends here in my neighborhood are all muslim! They explained all of this in detail to me. They admit what the quran and hadith speak of about women, apostasy and infidels - but make it quite clear to me that they don't subscribe to those beliefs in any way, shape or form. But that doesn't change the fact that these subjects are discussed in the readings.

1) Are you denying that the quran mentions it acceptable for a man to hit a woman with an iron rod if she disobeys him or is unfaithful?

2) Do you deny that the quran and hadith suggest death to infidels?

3) Do you deny that the quran and hadith suggest death to those wishing to leave the Islamic faith?

4) Do you deny that several countries and millions of muslims are still under shariah law, and still abuse women as a result of these antiquated laws?

If you deny any of the above - you are an absolute liar. I've been to the mosque nearest my home on a few occasions, invited by a dear friend to learn more. I always ask as many questions as possible, and they are always as honest as possible.

It's no different than a few antiquated things in the bible - the only difference is that christians/catholics very rarely abuse women, kill and do the other evil things that muslims do in the name of God. Does it happen? Sure it does, unlike you I will admit to it. But it doesn't happen like it does as a way of life for so many muslims in various countries.

Stay a deluded liar all you like, but I have read much of the quran and hadith myself, and have had the nicest muslims and leaders of our local mosque explain things to me. And while they admit these books contain these passages, they further explain that not all muslims still subscribe to those ways of life - but that does NOTHING to explain why several countries and millions of muslims still do.

abso
09-30-2010, 07:07 AM
I know plenty about muslims, my best friends here in my neighborhood are all muslim! They explained all of this in detail to me. They admit what the quran and hadith speak of about women, apostasy and infidels - but make it quite clear to me that they don't subscribe to those beliefs in any way, shape or form. But that doesn't change the fact that these subjects are discussed in the readings.

1) Are you denying that the quran mentions it acceptable for a man to hit a woman with an iron rod if she disobeys him or is unfaithful?

Yup, there is no mentioning at all that a man can hit his women with iron rod, i sware on my life.

2) Do you deny that the quran and hadith suggest death to infidels?

Yup, when Muhammed invaded any country, he never killed all the non believers, he just told them that they have to pay taxes and then live their life as they wish, and practice any religion they want.

and Infidels are the ones who does not believe in god, so christians and jews are not infidels, and about the ones who does not believe in god, Hadith only instructed us to take taxes from them, not kill them of course, or we would have killed quarter of the world, as we already controlled a very large area.

3) Do you deny that the quran and hadith suggest death to those wishing to leave the Islamic faith?

Yes, there is no mentioning at all in any Hadith or any verse in Quran that we should kill the ones who leave Islam, and in egypt, Al-Azhar, which is the largest islamic institute in the world, has declared that there is no punishment at all for anyone who leaves Islam, and people are legally free to leave islam in egypt or any other country.

4) Do you deny that several countries and millions of muslims are still under shariah law, and still abuse women as a result of these antiquated laws?

Shariah law does not abuse women, its the stupid men who apply it in a wrong way, Muhammed have never beaten or abused his women at all, he stated many times that the best of men, is the man who treats his family in the best manner.

i can tell you so much about how we honor our women, but lets leave that for later, but i assure you, that the true Islamic faith calls for the respect of women, and treating them with a very kind way.

your friends who have been raised in USA, have very wrong understanding of Islam, if you want to learn about true Islam, then let me tell you about it, ask me about anything bad you hear about it, and i will try to correct it.

If you deny any of the above - you are an absolute liar. I've been to the mosque nearest my home on a few occasions, invited by a dear friend to learn more. I always ask as many questions as possible, and they are always as honest as possible.

It's no different than a few antiquated things in the bible - the only difference is that christians/catholics very rarely abuse women, kill and do the other evil things that muslims do in the name of God. Does it happen? Sure it does, unlike you I will admit to it. But it doesn't happen like it does as a way of life for so many muslims in various countries.

Stay a deluded liar all you like, but I have read much of the quran and hadith myself, and have had the nicest muslims and leaders of our local mosque explain things to me. And while they admit these books contain these passages, they further explain that not all muslims still subscribe to those ways of life - but that does NOTHING to explain why several countries and millions of muslims still do.

i never stated that muslims does not kill in the name of god, they are like christians who kills in the name of god, but both are wrong, killing in the name of god is wrong, neither Christianity nor Islam asks for blood, so if christian or muslims kills in the name of god, then he is mistaken and he has been misguided.


those muslims you are talking to, have not been raised to the true understanding of islam, they dont even understand arabic, and by the way, the Quran can never be translated accurately, so you will never understand it accurately if you read it in english, many verses will be understood in a wrong way, cause arabic is a very difficult language, so if you have any verse or hadith that you think is calling for the abuse of women, then tell it to me, and let me verify if its true or not, and i will explain it to you if you have misunderstood it.

and if someone thinks that Quran contain verses that asks for abusing women, then why are they muslims !!!, you dont take certain parts of a religion, you either have faith in it fully, or you leave it, you cant believe in jesus without believing in Mary, and you cant just take the parts that you like from bible and ignore that rest, and the same for muslims, if they dont believe in their holy book, then they should leave Islam, none is forcing them to stay in it !!!

"but that does NOTHING to explain why several countries and millions of muslims still do"

tell that to yourself, if thats true and Islam calls for the abuse of women, then do you really think that millions of people really like that !!!, of course not, we understand Islam in the right way, and we know that it never called for the abuse of women, while you misunderstand it, and your friends, please provide me with the verses which talk about abusing women and the hadithes too, let me correct them to you.

jimnyc
09-30-2010, 08:18 AM
Abso, I have had an argument and bad feelings with my Muslim friends over this discussion as they felt that I was attacking them. I tried my best to explain that I was trying to learn more to further a debate, and that I realized a lot of the text is ancient and not all Muslims follow this stuff to a T, so I hope you don't immediately dismiss what I present to you as "proof" of what you deny. My friends have agreed with me, but immediately stated that there are crappy paragraphs in the bible as well, that I likely don't follow - and this is true. But whether one follows it or not, doesn't mean others don't, and disbelieving the words certainly don't take them out of the book. I printed out what I'm going to put here over the past several days and sat down with them.

1 - Women in the Quran:


2:228 Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

4:15 As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).

4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

And, we read in An-Nisa (Women) 4:34, "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath men the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend
of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye
fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High
Exalted, Great."

Allah's Apostle said, "The woman is like a rib; if you try to straighten her, she will break. So if you want to get benefit from her, do so while she still has some
crookedness."

The Prophet said, "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt (trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you to take care of the women, for they are
created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so I
urge you to take care of the women."

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of the Persia had
made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."

Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)Please read the following page and watch the videos. These are directly from Arabic speaking Muslims and translated by them - so no excuses as to bad readings:

http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm

2- Infidels in the Quran


ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)3- Apostasy in Quran

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/hadith.htm This page is directly written from Muslims who have left the Islamic faith and their stories.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm

Everything I have posted here was discussed with devout Muslims who follow every last tradition of Islam and love their religion more than most Catholics I personally know. They were not pleased to discuss these topics, but being a friend of theirs for so long they did. Again, they believe this stuff is outdated, that Muslims no longer follow these teachings, that Muslims love and treat their women respectfully, and those that do follow the above are not true Muslims.

BUT - the writing IS there and there are ENTIRE COUNTRIES who still subscribe to these words and actions. Just because YOU don't, that doesn't mean that millions of others in other countries are just like you. Just like #4 - Shariah law - as disgusting as it is - STATE LEADERS of Islamic countries stand by it, TOP CLERICS stand by it, LOCAL TRIBAL LEADERS stand by it - and MILLIONS of muslims in those countries stand by it.

abso
09-30-2010, 10:44 AM
Abso, I have had an argument and bad feelings with my Muslim friends over this discussion as they felt that I was attacking them. I tried my best to explain that I was trying to learn more to further a debate, and that I realized a lot of the text is ancient and not all Muslims follow this stuff to a T, so I hope you don't immediately dismiss what I present to you as "proof" of what you deny. My friends have agreed with me, but immediately stated that there are crappy paragraphs in the bible as well, that I likely don't follow - and this is true. But whether one follows it or not, doesn't mean others don't, and disbelieving the words certainly don't take them out of the book. I printed out what I'm going to put here over the past several days and sat down with them.

1 - Women in the Quran:

Please read the following page and watch the videos. These are directly from Arabic speaking Muslims and translated by them - so no excuses as to bad readings:

http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm

2- Infidels in the Quran

3- Apostasy in Quran

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/hadith.htm This page is directly written from Muslims who have left the Islamic faith and their stories.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm

Everything I have posted here was discussed with devout Muslims who follow every last tradition of Islam and love their religion more than most Catholics I personally know. They were not pleased to discuss these topics, but being a friend of theirs for so long they did. Again, they believe this stuff is outdated, that Muslims no longer follow these teachings, that Muslims love and treat their women respectfully, and those that do follow the above are not true Muslims.

BUT - the writing IS there and there are ENTIRE COUNTRIES who still subscribe to these words and actions. Just because YOU don't, that doesn't mean that millions of others in other countries are just like you. Just like #4 - Shariah law - as disgusting as it is - STATE LEADERS of Islamic countries stand by it, TOP CLERICS stand by it, LOCAL TRIBAL LEADERS stand by it - and MILLIONS of muslims in those countries stand by it.

i promise i will answer to all your given sources and verses, i will use the arabic version of the Quran to study them and then answer to you, but please give me time, it will take me couple of days because i might have to contact Al-Azhar to know their answers, after all i am not an Imam :salute:

maybe it will take me a day or two or maybe more, cause i have to research carefully when it come to religion, but i will answer, and be sure of it.

thanks for the sources and verses that you provided me, i will provide you with the explaination from our best Imams.

jimnyc
09-30-2010, 11:40 AM
i promise i will answer to all your given sources and verses, i will use the arabic version of the Quran to study them and then answer to you, but please give me time, it will take me couple of days because i might have to contact Al-Azhar to know their answers, after all i am not an Imam :salute:

maybe it will take me a day or two or maybe more, cause i have to research carefully when it come to religion, but i will answer, and be sure of it.

thanks for the sources and verses that you provided me, i will provide you with the explaination from our best Imams.

No offense, abso, but I don't need your confirmation. I know what I know. Every last thing I posted above was translated by arabic speaking muslims and verified to have been in either the quran or hadith. The page about the apostates proves even further about what I claim to be the truth about apostasy. Devout muslims have confirmed the translations about the verses on women for me - but just stated that this is no longer practiced - but these verses are in either the quran or hadith. The same applies to the verses about non-believers of islam.

The only thing that matters is that, yes, this is no longer practiced by MANY muslims throughout the world, including my friends here in the US and apparently you don't subscribe to these verses either. But you go TOO FAR when you proclaim they aren't in the quran or hadith, that people who follow these verses are somehow not Muslim (therefore declaring MILLIONS of muslims to be non-muslims in one heartbeat).

Face facts, there are millions of peaceful muslims in the US, and in Egypt, and some in Algeria - and probably some even in the hardcore countries that do still subscribe to these beliefs. But don't deny and/or defend the countries or the millions of muslims who do take these verses literally - and as a result abuse women, call for death of infidels and call for the death of those wishing to leave the islamic faith.

It's undeniable, irrefutable and a matter of fact.

Little-Acorn
09-30-2010, 12:26 PM
It's not surprising that little abso posts lies and distortions bashing Jews and anyoe who supports them. It seems to be his only talent, if it can be called that.

What's surprising, is that anyone listens and replies.

namvet
10-04-2010, 08:34 PM
Michel Chossudovsky is a Canadian economist

case closed