Verses from the Bible [Archive] - Debate Policy

abso

12-29-2010, 04:37 AM

Anyone care to explain those versus ?

Matthew 10
10:33 butwhoever denies me before men,I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

10:36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Exodus 2
2:11 One day, when Moses had grown up, he went out to his people and looked on their burdens, and he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his people.

2:12 He looked this way and that, and seeing no one, he struck down the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

2:13 When he went out the next day, behold, two Hebrews were struggling together. And he said to the man in the wrong, "Why do you strike your companion?"

2:14 He answered, "Who made you a prince and a judge over us? Do you mean to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?" Then Moses was afraid, and thought, "Surely the thing is known."

2:15 When Pharaoh heard of it, he sought to kill Moses. ButMoses fled from Pharaoh and stayed in the land of Midian. And he sat down by a well.

Exodus 21
7"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

15 "Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

17 "Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

20"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

28"When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. 29But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. 30If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. 31If it gores a man’s son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

Exodus 22
22:18 You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

2 Chronicles
15:10 They were gathered at Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa.

15:11 They sacrificed to the LORD on that day from the spoil that they had brought 700 oxen and 7,000 sheep.

15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul,

15:13 but that whoever would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

15:14 They swore an oath to the LORD with a loud voice and with shouting and with trumpets and with horns.

15:15 And all Judah rejoiced over the oath, for they had sworn with all their heart and had sought him with their whole desire, and he was found by them, and the LORD gave them rest all around.

Deuteronomy 13
1"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12"If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to dwell there, 13that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, 14then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 21
Inheritance Rights of the Firstborn

15"If a man has two wives, the one loved and the other unloved, and both the loved and the unloved have borne him children, and if the firstborn son belongs to the unloved, 16then on the day when he assigns his possessions as an inheritance to his sons, he may not treat the son of the loved as the firstborn in preference to the son of the unloved, who is the firstborn, 17but he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the firstfruits of his strength. The right of the firstborn is his.

A Rebellious Son

18"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 20

10"When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. 11And if it responds to you peaceably and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. 12But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13And when the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword, 14 but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you. 15Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. 16But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded, 18that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God.

Leviticus
20:27 "A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them."

Numbers 31
13Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the chiefs of the congregation went to meet them outside the camp. 14And Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live? 16Behold, these, on Balaam’s advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. 17Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. 19 Encamp outside the camp seven days. Whoever of you has killed any person and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves and your captives on the third day and on the seventh day. 20You shall purify every garment, every article of skin, all work of goats’ hair, and every article of wood."

Joshua 10
22Then Joshua said, "Open the mouth of the cave and bring those five kings out to me from the cave." 23And they did so, and brought those five kings out to him from the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon. 24And when they brought those kings out to Joshua, Joshua summoned all the men of Israel and said to the chiefs of the men of war who had gone with him, "Come near; put your feet on the necks of these kings." Then they came near and put their feet on their necks. 25And Joshua said to them, "Do not be afraid or dismayed; be strong and courageous. For thus the LORD will do to all your enemies against whom you fight." 26And afterward Joshua struck them and put them to death, and he hanged them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening. 27But at the time of the going down of the sun, Joshua commanded, and they took them down from the trees and threw them into the cave where they had hidden themselves, and they set large stones against the mouth of the cave, which remain to this very day. 28As for Makkedah, Joshua captured it on that day and struck it, and its king, with the edge of the sword. He devoted to destruction every person in it; he left none remaining. And he did to the king of Makkedah just as he had done to the king of Jericho.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

i havent taken anything out of context, i havent altered anything, i just posted verses as it is from:

http://www.biblegateway.com "English Standard Version"

if any of you, notice any altered verse, please let me know, if anyone believe that i have taken anything out of context, please let me know.

i made sure to post all related veres before and after any verse that i wanted to post, i didnt just post:

"15:13 but that whoever would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman."

i could have posted it alone, but i posted it along with the verses before and after it, because i am not discussing a single verse, i am discussing the total meaning of the subject mentioned in group of verses.

specially in Deuteronomy 13, i posted it all, i dont need someone to explain every verse in detail, just the whole subject, in Deut13, there are 3 paragraphs, containing three subject, so if anyone care to explain them to me, i would be very greatful.

darin

12-29-2010, 06:07 AM

Jesus - Abso..dude...you aren't going to find ANYONE with anything resembling a life to spend time trying to get you to understand everything you put there. Maybe start off small? lol :)

I'll give you a few explanations:

First - Here's the thing you may want to consider: Christians (should) NOT believe every instruction given by God to every individual or group applies forever, to everyone.

Secondly - consider translation, cultural norms, and most-importantly CONTEXT; without context, one betrays the intent of the author.

I'm going to rephrase a few of your scriptures with a paraphrase of the Bible called "The Message" - which takes language few folks use, and translates it into 'the way ppl talk'. These are not literal translations - but designed to help folk figure out what the hell "The Bible" is trying to say:

Matthew 10
10:33 but whoever denies me before men,I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

10:36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

32-33"Stand up for me against world opinion and I'll stand up for you before my Father in heaven. If you turn tail and run, do you think I'll cover for you? 34-37"Don't think I've come to make life cozy. I've come to cut—make a sharp knife-cut between son and father, daughter and mother, bride and mother-in-law—cut through these cozy domestic arrangements and free you for God. Well-meaning family members can be your worst enemies. If you prefer father or mother over me, you don't deserve me. If you prefer son or daughter over me, you don't deserve me.

Christ is speaking to tearing down long-held, stupid 'traditions' and 'religiousness' which held the people of the day. He is telling folks "stop with your stupidness, and just love God" :) Christ is encouraging folk to boldly profess their love for Him/God.

Exodus 21
7"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

15 "Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

17 "Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

20"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

28"When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. 29But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. 30If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. 31If it gores a man’s son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

1"These are the laws that you are to place before them:
2-6 "When you buy a Hebrew slave, he will serve six years. The
seventh year he goes free, for nothing. If he came in single he leaves single. If he came in married he leaves with his wife. If the master gives him a wife and she gave him sons and daughters, the wife and children stay with the master and he leaves by himself. But suppose the slave should say, 'I love my master and my wife and children—I don't want my freedom,' then his master is to bring him before God and to a door or doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl, a sign that he is a slave for life. 7-11 "When a man sells his daughter to be a handmaid, she doesn't go free after six years like the men. If she doesn't please her master, her family must buy her back; her master doesn't have the right to sell her to foreigners since he broke his word to her. If he turns her over to his son, he has to treat her like a daughter. If he marries another woman, she retains all her full rights to meals, clothing, and marital relations. If he won't do any of these three things for her, she goes free, for nothing.

12-14 "If someone hits another and death results, the penalty is death. But if there was no intent to kill—if it was an accident, an 'act of God'—I'll set aside a place to which the killer can flee for refuge. But if the murder was premeditated, cunningly plotted, then drag the killer away, even if it's from my Altar, to be put to death.

15 "If someone hits father or mother, the penalty is death.

16 "If someone kidnaps a person, the penalty is death, regardless of whether the person has been sold or is still held in possession.

17 "If someone curses father or mother, the penalty is death.

18-19 "If a quarrel breaks out and one hits the other with a rock or a fist and the injured one doesn't die but is confined to bed and then later gets better and can get about on a crutch, the one who hit him is in the clear, except to pay for the loss of time and make sure of complete recovery.

20-21 "If a slave owner hits a slave, male or female, with a stick and the slave dies on the spot, the slave must be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he's not to be avenged—the slave is the owner's property.

22-25 "When there's a fight and in the fight a pregnant woman is hit so that she miscarries but is not otherwise hurt, the one responsible has to pay whatever the husband demands in compensation. But if there is further damage, then you must give life for life—eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

26-27 "If a slave owner hits the eye of a slave or handmaid and ruins it, the owner must let the slave go free because of the eye. If the owner knocks out the tooth of the male or female slave, the slave must be released and go free because of the tooth.

28-32 "If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox must be stoned. The meat cannot be eaten but the owner of the ox is in the clear. But if the ox has a history of goring and the owner knew it and did nothing to guard against it, then if the ox kills a man or a woman, the ox is to be stoned and the owner given the death penalty. If a ransom is agreed upon instead of death, he must pay it in full as a redemption for his life. If a son or daughter is gored, the same judgment holds. If it is a slave or a handmaid the ox gores, thirty shekels of silver is to be paid to the owner and the ox stoned.

Notes on those passages: The laws in this chapter relate to the fifth and sixth commandments; and though they differ from our times and customs, nor are they binding on us, yet they explain the moral law, and the rules of natural justice. The servant, in the state of servitude, was an emblem of that state of bondage to sin, Satan, and the law, which man is brought into by robbing God of his glory, by the transgression of his precepts. Likewise in being made free, he was an emblem of that liberty wherewith

Christ, the Son of God, makes free from bondage his people, who are free indeed; and made so freely, without money and without price, of free grace. (Ex 21:12-21)

The scriptures in Exodus show protections for people, etc. They are NOT commandments to have slaves, etc.

PostmodernProphet

12-29-2010, 08:10 AM

I will start from the other end so as not to duplicate....

Joshua 10, Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 20 have a common theme, and your request for explanation is found in the text of Deut. 20:18 "that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God"

the tribes in question engaged in the practice of sacrificing their first born child to their gods, by heating a metal idol until red hot, then placing the baby in its arms.....

God punished that activity......

abso

12-29-2010, 08:43 AM

Jesus - Abso..dude...you aren't going to find ANYONE with anything resembling a life to spend time trying to get you to understand everything you put there. Maybe start off small? lol :)

I'll give you a few explanations:

First - Here's the thing you may want to consider: Christians (should) NOT believe every instruction given by God to every individual or group applies forever, to everyone.

Okay, i didnt say that you people follow those instructions, i just wanted some explaination.

Secondly - consider translation, cultural norms, and most-importantly CONTEXT; without context, one betrays the intent of the author.

translation is not an issue here, i copied the text directly from an english website, i didnt read it in arabic then translated it myself.

context is something i am well aware of, since everyone who posted a Quran verse to me on this forum, have taken it out of context and never tried to read the subject its speaking about, and i will never do such a mistake, i read those Bible verses well, and read the whole subject, every verse i posted, i read 10 verses before it and 10 verses after it, and sometimes i read the whole page.

as you see, i didnt post the verses that needs discussions alone, i posted verses before and after them, i always post the whole paragraph, not a single verse, hope some people will learn from that before they post Quran verses to me next time.

I'm going to rephrase a few of your scriptures with a paraphrase of the Bible called "The Message" - which takes language few folks use, and translates it into 'the way ppl talk'. These are not literal translations - but designed to help folk figure out what the hell "The Bible" is trying to say:

okay,no problem as long as its in an understood languare to me, although i found it a little easier to understand the original text, as my english is closer to the language that few folks use.

Christ is speaking to tearing down long-held, stupid 'traditions' and 'religiousness' which held the people of the day. He is telling folks "stop with your stupidness, and just love God" :) Christ is encouraging folk to boldly profess their love for Him/God.

please correct me if i understood wrong, the verses is actually about breaking the bonds between family members so that they can strengthen their bonds with GOD.

is that what those verses are calling for ?

The scriptures in Exodus show protections for people, etc. They are NOT commandments to have slaves, etc.

protection to slaves ?
"But if the slave survives a day or two, he's not to be avenged—the slave is the owner's property."

Lets again look at:

Exodus
From 21:23 - To 21:27

you will notice
"life for life—eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
and
"If a slave owner hits the eye of a slave or handmaid and ruins it, the owner must let the slave go free because of the eye."

so the justice is only applied for the free people, while for slave, the principle of an eye for eye does not exist ?

is that a social justice ?

what about that part:
Exodus
21:15 If someone hits father or mother, the penalty is death.
21:17 If someone curses father or mother, the penalty is death.

is that the just punishment ?

darin

12-29-2010, 08:51 AM

Abso - you seem to be reading replies VERY defensively today. Relax man. :)

jimnyc

12-29-2010, 08:58 AM

Here's the difference between the Bible and the Quran...

You nay be able to find odd things in both, mean things, things out of context and things not meant for this time (no longer stone age).

While you'll find some Catholics/Christians perverting the book, it's probably about 2% of how many Muslims pervert the Quran.

You can find things you disagree with in both books, but it's WAY MORE Muslims acting out from those words. And we don't currently, that I'm aware of, have tons of people of faith (imams, priests...) preaching to hate and kill. Islam owns in that department.

Abso, I'm sorry, but in this day and age it is futile to compare the bible and the quran verses. Look at the ACTIONS of man/women who read the book. Catholics/Christians don't read the bible and then run down to the corner store with dynamite around their belts and kill the locals.

abso

12-29-2010, 09:30 AM

I will start from the other end so as not to duplicate....

Joshua 10, Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 20 have a common theme, and your request for explanation is found in the text of Deut. 20:18 "that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God"

the tribes in question engaged in the practice of sacrificing their first born child to their gods, by heating a metal idol until red hot, then placing the baby in its arms.....

God punished that activity......

about people who sacrifice their first born sons, i would kill them too, but not all of them, just the people who agree with it, and i will stop such practice by force, but i will not kill all the women and children and elders.

what you said may justify why to attack them in the first place, i agree with you on that, but does it justify the following:

Joshua 10:
such action is not accepted, to treat prisoners like that:
"Come near; put your feet on the necks of these kings."

and killing unarmed prisoners and hanging them on trees is not acceptable:
"And afterward Joshua struck them and put them to death, and he hanged them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening."

Numbers 31:
what reason is there to kill every woman who have had a relation with a man before !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him."

Deuteronomy 20
what does that part have to do with what you said !!!, when the city accepts peace, take them as labors ???
"then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you."

what if some males had nothing to do with such actions, no consideration for that ?
"you shall put all its males to the sword"

does that include women, children, elders and unarmed men ?
"you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction"

by the way, i am not saying that Joshua was an evil man, i am just saying that those stories doesnt seem right.

About Joshua:

Joshua in Islamic history:

Joshua is also revered in Islam, as a wise and just man at the time of Moses. Although some Muslims regard him as a prophet in his own right, others see him as a saintly man. As Joshua took the leadership of the Israelites after the time of Moses, his role as the first Judge can be paralleled with that of Abu Bakr (or, in Shia Islam, Ali) as the first Caliph after Muhammad.
Conquest of Canaan

In the Qur'anic account of the conquest of Canaan, Joshua (and Caleb) are mentioned, but not named, as two "God-fearing men", on whom God "had bestowed His grace"

They said: "O Moses! In this land are a people of exceeding strength: Never shall we enter it until they leave it: if (once) they leave, then shall we enter."

(But) among (their) God-fearing men were two on whom God had bestowed His grace. They said: "Assault them at the (proper) Gate: when once ye are in, victory will be yours; but on God put your trust if ye have faith."

Qur'an 5:22-23

i just included the part about Joshua in Islamic history to demonstrate that i am not against Joshua himself, i dont know much about his history, i am merely talking about the actions that were included in the bible

abso

12-29-2010, 09:37 AM

Here's the difference between the Bible and the Quran...

You nay be able to find odd things in both, mean things, things out of context and things not meant for this time (no longer stone age).

While you'll find some Catholics/Christians perverting the book, it's probably about 2% of how many Muslims pervert the Quran.

You can find things you disagree with in both books, but it's WAY MORE Muslims acting out from those words. And we don't currently, that I'm aware of, have tons of people of faith (imams, priests...) preaching to hate and kill. Islam owns in that department.

Abso, I'm sorry, but in this day and age it is futile to compare the bible and the quran verses. Look at the ACTIONS of man/women who read the book. Catholics/Christians don't read the bible and then run down to the corner store with dynamite around their belts and kill the locals.

i am not talking about the actions, i am discussing the books, when you posted some verses for me, i explained all of them, and i didnt talk about any action of anyone, Quran never promoted violence and never will, its the people who pervert it to be so, and if you want to kill such people, be my guest, i will just salute you if you kill as many of them as you can, but without involving any innocent people in the process, so if you have a way to kill every muslim radical in the world, without killing 100 peaceful muslim everytime you kill just 1 radical, then i will agree with any method you use.

so jim, when you say that Quran is violent, you are hurting me along with other peaceful muslims, if radical muslims pervert it, its not my fault, please insult them, not me and my beliefs, for i have done nothing wrong and the Quran have never allowed any terrorism.

and you really exaggerate when you talk about muslim radicals numbers, when compared with christian radicals they are higher, that is something i admit, but extremists ratio within muslims, are not that much, and as i have always said, try to bring me any verse at all in the Quran that allows terrorism, any verse at all, try your best please, use any site you would like on the whole internet, even if its a hate site, and i promise that i will prove you wrong everytime because nothing in the Quran at all call for terrorism. :salute:

jimnyc

12-29-2010, 10:22 AM

and you really exaggerate when you talk about muslim radicals numbers, when compared with christian radicals they are higher, that is something i admit, but extremists ratio within muslims, are not that much, and as i have always said, try to bring me any verse at all in the Quran that allows terrorism, any verse at all, try your best please, use any site you would like on the whole internet, even if its a hate site, and i promise that i will prove you wrong everytime because nothing in the Quran at all call for terrorism. :salute:

16,574 terror attacks since 9/11 - and each and every one is documented. 2% is probably on the high side!! And I don't care if you don't like the site or not, you can't argue the facts!!!

PostmodernProphet

12-29-2010, 11:25 AM

but does it justify the following

God decided it did.....you want to take it up with him?.....by the way, he's met people who wanted to take things up with him before.....he's got an answer for in you in Job 38....

it begins...
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

BoogyMan

12-29-2010, 03:35 PM

10:33 whoever denies me before men,I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

10:36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Let us consider the only verses you posted from the covenant under which Christianity operates, those from the New Testament.

The sword Christ is speaking of here is pretty much universally understood to be the word of God, truth (Heb 4:12, Eph 6:17, Rev 1:16). When man preaches truth there will simply be those who react to it with hostility and those who do so will sometimes be mothers, fathers, family members, etc.

What part of this series of verses do you want addressed?

revelarts

12-29-2010, 04:13 PM

Abso i agree with PostmodernP here mostly and I'll add
the fuller context of most of the items you mentioned is the conquering of the land of Israel.
THAT is the where most of the items you have problems with occur and are clearly commanded.
War time conditions.
Joshua was the general in an Army.

Joshua-Deuteronomy- etc

Also Here's another way to look at some of points as well, the killing of the children in the city the non-virgin women.

GOd Commanded those things be done. it seems they weren't initiated by the Moses or Joshua etc. Now In Genisis God also destroyed all of the people in a flood. woman and children virgins and non. In exodus God destroyed the 1st born Children of ALL who did not put the blood above the door post. and hit ALL egypt Young and Old with plagues that cause pain and death.

In many of the verse you've mentioned God is using HIS prerogative as creator to remove or punish HIS created beings. In one place he uses nature in the verses you mention he uses the Moses, Joshua and the people of Israel.

Another important distinction to make between what some radical muslims claim is their motivation, creating a WORLDWIDE Muslim religious riegn is that what happened in the OLD testament
is very specific and Localized to time and specifically PLACE. Totally restricted to One nation. None of those rules of putting to death for blasphemy or worshiping other Gods is exported outside of the boarders of Israel. None. the nation of Isreal was to be an example of what it looks like to live under the God. Not to be a world conquering force.

Deuteronomy 26
15 Look down from Your holy habitation, from heaven, and bless Your people Israel, and the ground which You have given us, a land flowing with milk and honey, as You swore to our fathers.'
16"This day the LORD your God commands you to do these statutes and ordinances. You shall therefore be careful to do them with all your heart and with all your soul....
18 "The LORD has today declared you to be His people, a treasured possession, as He promised you, and that you should keep all His commandments;
19 and that He will set you high above all nations which He has made, for praise, fame, and honor; and that you shall be a consecrated people to the LORD your God, as He has spoken."

Exodus 19:6
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."
Deuteronomy 7:6
6"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 14:21
2"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

When Jews went into other nations they knew they where to keep their own faith but Never where they to Impose, by military force or murder, or any real pressures. Examples is what they what supposed to be. All other wars after the main conquest of the land where primarily defensive.
But prophets did go out to other nations to declare the power and authority of God over all the earth -Jonah to Ninavah for example-. The prophets Talked. And God sometimes showed his power in various ways directly to get the attention of kings and peoples of other lands.

Deuteronomy 13
1"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12"If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to dwell there, 13that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, 14then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the LORD your God.

In the Nation of Israel was a real theocracy.
Isaiah 43:15
"I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King."
1 Samuel 12:12
And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.
Worshiping other gods was high treason.
And as in most countries the punishment is severe. See how some people, even on this board -yourself?-, are calling for Assange to be "taken out" for releasing a few documents.

abso

12-29-2010, 04:25 PM

16,574 terror attacks since 9/11 - and each and every one is documented. 2% is probably on the high side!! And I don't care if you don't like the site or not, you can't argue the facts!!!

okay, alot of stupid muslims, but i am not here to defend muslims, i am here to defend my religion, i dont like it being portrayed as evil and hateful.

i am peaceful, and i like my religion and see it as peaceful, if people pervert it and use it as a face for their actions, then its not my fault, and certainly not the Islam's fault.

again i said that for you to say that Quran is responsible for terrorism, you have to get my a verse that tells muslims to be terrorists.

abso

12-29-2010, 04:30 PM

God decided it did.....you want to take it up with him?.....by the way, he's met people who wanted to take things up with him before.....he's got an answer for in you in Job 38....

it begins...
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

i am sure that GOD will question me, i am not a perfect being, i have my sins, and i can never question GOD.

but then you have no explaination of such violence, thats all i wanted to say.

abso

12-29-2010, 04:32 PM

Let us consider the only verses you posted from the covenant under which Christianity operates, those from the New Testament.

The sword Christ is speaking of here is pretty much universally understood to be the word of God, truth (Heb 4:12, Eph 6:17, Rev 1:16). When man preaches truth there will simply be those who react to it with hostility and those who do so will sometimes be mothers, fathers, family members, etc.

What part of this series of verses do you want addressed?

so the verses moral is for humans to abide by the truth even if it hurts their family, and even if they were told not to do so by their family members ?

BoogyMan

12-29-2010, 04:35 PM

so the verses moral is for humans to abide by the truth even if it hurts their family, and even if they were told not to do so by their family members ?

Exactly. There will be those who will try to stand in the way and the Christian cannot pay them heed over the word of God.

abso

12-29-2010, 04:35 PM

16,574 terror attacks since 9/11 - and each and every one is documented. 2% is probably on the high side!! And I don't care if you don't like the site or not, you can't argue the facts!!!

Btw jim, when you asked me directly to explain some verses, although they were altered an taken out of context, i replied respectfully, and explained them all, and all i wished from you is to reply to me in the same manner when i ask for some explaination for verses that i dont understand their motive in your bible, is it too much to ask for ? :salute:

abso

12-29-2010, 04:37 PM

Exactly. There will be those who will try to stand in the way and the Christian cannot pay them heed over the word of God.

okay, it was a strange way to give us that moral, i guess i am used to read more direct verses in Quran that i didnt realise that some far meanings could be meant ;).

thanks for your effort..

the Quran has the same moral, that we should favour the word of GOD over the word of our family if they are ever in conflict with each other.

revelarts

12-29-2010, 04:43 PM

...
Joshua 10:
such action is not accepted, to treat prisoners like that:
"Come near; put your feet on the necks of these kings."

and killing unarmed prisoners and hanging them on trees is not acceptable:"And afterward Joshua struck them and put them to death, and he hanged them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening."
...

It's not torture.
They where killed Before hanging on the tree.
It was Similar to foreign leaders being put on trial and Hung after a war.

...

Deuteronomy 20
what does that part have to do with what you said !!!, when the city accepts peace, take them as labors ???
"then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you."

what if some males had nothing to do with such actions, no consideration for that ?
[SIZE=2]

If your in a war with a city how do you know which countrymen weren't fighting against you? Making Slaves of conquered nations was common practice and not the same as race slavery. Any foreign person was welcomed into Israel " the stranger" and they where not to be "oppressed". But they were to be treated fairly because the children of Israel were to remember how they were treated in Egypt as strangers.

abso

12-29-2010, 04:48 PM

...

It's not torture.
They where killed Before hanging on the tree.
It was Similar to foreign leaders being put on trial and Hung after a war.

would you do it, would you hang the dead body of your enemy from a tree ?

revelarts

12-29-2010, 05:02 PM

Ok now lets talk about what we've got today.
from the new testament Christianity, NO WHERE in the the New Testament does Jesus ask us to kill ANYONE to spread his message. period.
In spreading the good news about Salvation we are to speak at every good opotunity be and example. and the punishment for those who do not belive. well the Apsoltes where told

Matthew 10:13-15
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Dust shaking, not quite cutting up the woman and children, or hanging people on tree's.

And If Christians are persecuted to badly we are told to run. Not very aggressive. Goes against human nature a bit. But Paul also gave an example of leaving or fighting legally within the laws of the host nations or staying despite the pressure to get the word of God out the people of a nation.

Please don't try to make comparisons of BIBLICAL Christian practice in its promotion and radical Muslims promotion and protection, there is no real comparison.

abso

12-29-2010, 05:22 PM

Abso - you seem to be reading replies VERY defensively today. Relax man. :)

actually, i am relaxed right now, at least i got some time free from explaining Quran verses and now i only read explainations of Bible, its easier to be the one who is reading the explaination than to be writing it :rolleyes:

PostmodernProphet

12-30-2010, 08:16 AM

but then you have no explaination of such violence, thats all i wanted to say.

?????....why not?.....God did explain it, I pointed it out to you.....

Abbey Marie

01-04-2011, 02:11 PM

Here's the difference between the Bible and the Quran...

You nay be able to find odd things in both, mean things, things out of context and things not meant for this time (no longer stone age).

While you'll find some Catholics/Christians perverting the book, it's probably about 2% of how many Muslims pervert the Quran.

You can find things you disagree with in both books, but it's WAY MORE Muslims acting out from those words. And we don't currently, that I'm aware of, have tons of people of faith (imams, priests...) preaching to hate and kill. Islam owns in that department.

Abso, I'm sorry, but in this day and age it is futile to compare the bible and the quran verses. Look at the ACTIONS of man/women who read the book. Catholics/Christians don't read the bible and then run down to the corner store with dynamite around their belts and kill the locals.

Nail, meet head. :clap:

logroller

01-04-2011, 08:54 PM

Ok now lets talk about what we've got today.
from the new testament Christianity, NO WHERE in the the New Testament does Jesus ask us to kill ANYONE to spread his message. period.
In spreading the good news about Salvation we are to speak at every good opotunity be and example. and the punishment for those who do not belive. well the Apsoltes where told

Dust shaking, not quite cutting up the woman and children, or hanging people on tree's.

And If Christians are persecuted to badly we are told to run. Not very aggressive. Goes against human nature a bit. But Paul also gave an example of leaving or fighting legally within the laws of the host nations or staying despite the pressure to get the word of God out the people of a nation.

Please don't try to make comparisons of BIBLICAL Christian practice in its promotion and radical Muslims promotion and protection, there is no real comparison.

In all fairness Chistianity hasn't always kowtowed to oppression, there were many Christian crusades in the first half of the last millenium and one could argue much of the exploratory conquests of the latter half were motivated, to some degree, by religious mission. Christianity hasn't had to endure much religious intolerance since the early fourth century (compared with before that time). More recently, the most significant strife has came from within during the Reformation.
Comparisons of the two books is a good, from both a spiritual and historical perspective. It can be difficult to distinguish between religion, faith and spirituality; but certainly in the context of Holy Scripture, there exist clear instruction that, when wholly considered, direct all followers away from violence and persecution.

PostmodernProphet

01-05-2011, 11:21 AM

Christianity hasn't had to endure much religious intolerance since the early fourth century (compared with before that time). More recently, the most significant strife has came from within during the Reformation.

that isn't true.....Christians were killed for their beliefs in at least a half dozen countries in 2010.....

revelarts

01-05-2011, 11:32 PM

In all fairness Chistianity hasn't always kowtowed to oppression, there were many Christian crusades in the first half of the last millenium and one could argue much of the exploratory conquests of the latter half were motivated, to some degree, by religious mission.
i did qualify my response by saying BIBLICAL Christianity.

There mission didn't come from the Bible when they included going to other countries and killing the residents.

Christianity hasn't had to endure much religious intolerance since the early fourth century (compared with before that time). More recently, the most significant strife has came from within during the Reformation.

Post modern P makes a great point, But shear numbers It's hard to say.
In the old Soviet block and during Chinese revolutions Christians were killed and persecuted in large numbers. The Armenian genocide has a Muslim v Christian base. In Muslims countries Christians have had mixed responses. But there hasn't been the hard core "throw Christians to lions" in the west for some time Thankfully.

Comparisons of the two books is a good, from both a spiritual and historical perspective. It can be difficult to distinguish between religion, faith and spirituality; but certainly in the context of Holy Scripture, there exist clear instruction that, when wholly considered, direct all followers away from violence and persecution.

If you mean the understanding of the Koran v Bible, i think there are powerful and clear differences. Dolphins and a sharks have a lot in common too.