LOL! Liberals are all NUTS!

[-Cp]

Check out the video footage from the "Anti-war" rally in D.C. earlier this year.. .talk about a bunch of granola eating, birkenstock-wearin tree-huggers! LMAO!

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[Hugh Lincoln]

I don't know. I hate celebrities, I hate liberals and I sure as hell hate Jane Fonda, but they didn't all sound nuts. I think that little Bush-loving neocon twerp pretending to be Michael Moore was the one who looked bad. Most liberals protest the Iraq war because they'd protest any war, especially one waged by a Republican president, but this war does just happen to be a shitty war.

[Dilloduck]

I don't know. I hate celebrities, I hate liberals and I sure as hell hate Jane Fonda, but they didn't all sound nuts. I think that little Bush-loving neocon twerp pretending to be Michael Moore was the one who looked bad. Most liberals protest the Iraq war because they'd protest any war, especially one waged by a Republican president, but this war does just happen to be a shitty war.

Well at least during Viet Nam you could call Ho nappy headed and get away with it !!! :laugh2:

[lily]

Check out the video footage from the "Anti-war" rally in D.C. earlier this year.. .talk about a bunch of granola eating, birkenstock-wearin tree-huggers! LMAO!


I didn't see anyoe eating granola, wearing birkenstock or even hugging a tree. What I did see is people protesting a war they don't believe in.

[KitchenKitten99]

I didn't see anyoe eating granola, wearing birkenstock or even hugging a tree. What I did see is people protesting a war they don't believe in.

they can wear whatever, but they're still "yogurt sprout eating mutherfuckers"... :D

[darin]

I didn't see anyoe eating granola, wearing birkenstock or even hugging a tree. What I did see is people protesting a war they don't believe in.

Close - I saw STUPID people protesting something they know next to nothing about. I saw short-sighted hateful people determined to see hundreds of thousands, perhaps, of Iraqis killed, and thousands MORE American Civilians slaughtered.

[Mr. P]

Hanoi Jane is a FUCKING piece of SHIT and should have been hanged long ago!

AM I CLEAR!

[lily]

Close - I saw STUPID people protesting something they know next to nothing about.

Sounded to me like they knew what they were talking about. As for your STUPID remark, I have a feeling that anything a Liberal says you would consider stupid, instead of listening you just close your mind. It doesn't conform to what you've been indoctrinated to believe.:salute:



I saw short-sighted hateful people determined to see hundreds of thousands, perhaps, of Iraqis killed, and thousands MORE American Civilians slaughtered.


You do realize that the average number of Iraqi citizens that die per day is over 100 on a good day, don't you? As for your remark about thousandss MORE American Civilians slaughtered.......I'm sorry, I don't buy the latest slogan/talking point/ be afraid, be very afraid that this administration is selling. In fact I haven't since the "When the Iraqis Stand Up, We Will Stand Down, bumper sticker, hip, sleek, slogan of the week.

[darin]

Sounded to me like they knew what they were talking about. As for your STUPID remark, I have a feeling that anything a Liberal says you would consider stupid, instead of listening you just close your mind. It doesn't conform to what you've been indoctrinated to believe.:salute:





You do realize that the average number of Iraqi citizens that die per day is over 100 on a good day, don't you? As for your remark about thousandss MORE American Civilians slaughtered.......I'm sorry, I don't buy the latest slogan/talking point/ be afraid, be very afraid that this administration is selling. In fact I haven't since the "When the Iraqis Stand Up, We Will Stand Down, bumper sticker, hip, sleek, slogan of the week.


Of course you don't. You lack foresight and courage and compassion. Iraqis who die today die for standing up for Freedom. Are you REALLY unable to see if we leave Iraq, The Terrorist WIN in Iraq? Iraqis aren't fighting us - TERRORISTS are fighting us and Iraqis.

[Guernicaa]

Hanoi Jane is a FUCKING piece of SHIT and should have been hanged long ago!

AM I CLEAR!
So should the soldiers who rape and kill innocent Iraqi women.

[Mr. P]

You do realize that the average number of Iraqi citizens that die per day is over 100 on a good day, don't you? .....

You do realize it ain't the USA killing them, don't you? Can you say, "Islamic bombers"?

[Guernicaa]

Of course you don't. You lack foresight and courage and compassion. Iraqis who die today die for standing up for Freedom. Are you REALLY unable to see if we leave Iraq, The Terrorist WIN in Iraq? Iraqis aren't fighting us - TERRORISTS are fighting us and Iraqis.
Um no...The Iraqi's are fighting each other. Were trying to stop them, along with the ones who DON’T want us there (a high percentage of them don’t want us there).
At the same time we have to deal with insurgents from all over the Middle East that fled into Iraq after the invasion.

[-Cp]

So should the soldiers who rape and kill innocent Iraqi women.

Cause we have so many soldiers doing that? Are you retarded? Why pick on the soldiers - shouldn't the rules be the same for anyone who rapes and kills innocent people?

[Guernicaa]

You do realize it ain't the USA killing them, don't you? Can you say, "Islamic bombers"?
Not really. A small amount do die from "Islamic Bombers".
Those "Islamic Bombers" are after us, and they're usually Iraqi's or other random insurgents from around the Middle East.

[Guernicaa]

Cause we have so many soldiers doing that? Are you retarded? Why pick on the soldiers - shouldn't the rules be the same for anyone who rapes and kills innocent people?
No. Were in the middle of war, not domestic issues.
There are rules to war, and unless we want to be called Nazi's, we need to abide by those rules.

[OCA]

So should the soldiers who rape and kill innocent Iraqi women.


Never happened.

[OCA]

Not really. A small amount do die from "Islamic Bombers".
Those "Islamic Bombers" are after us, and they're usually Iraqi's or other random insurgents from around the Middle East.


Completely void of reality.

Iraqis kill an astronomical amount more of their own than U.S. forces.

You just hate the U.S.A. and anything western no matter the situation. Your easier to read than Dr. Seuss.

[Guernicaa]

Never happened.
lol...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/09/soldiers.charged/index.html

Five soldiers charged in Iraq rape-murder case
Mahmoudiya mayor says alleged rape victim was 14

(CNN) -- Four U.S. soldiers in Iraq are charged with participation in the "rape and murder of a young Iraqi woman and three members of her family," the U.S. military said Sunday.

A fifth soldier is accused of dereliction of duty for failing to report the offenses.

All five are charged with conspiring with former Pfc. Steven D. Green to commit the crimes, the military said, in connection with the incident in March in Mahmoudiya, Iraq.

There have been conflicting reports about the alleged rape victim's age. Sunday, Reuters news agency released documents indicating that she was 14.

Reuters said identification cards and death certificates give the victim's date of birth as August 19, 1991.

The mayor of Mahmoudiya confirmed that birth date to CNN.

However, a Justice Department affidavit in the case against Green says investigators estimated victim's age at about 25, while the U.S. military said she was 20.

The U.S. military statement Sunday made clear that officials are aware of the discrepancies and that her age is an important part of the investigation.

Green has been charged in a U.S. civilian court with rape and murder. Last week he pleaded not guilty in federal court in Kentucky.

Prosecutors have said Green shot and killed an Iraqi man, woman and child before raping a young female from the same family and killing her. (Watch leaders disagree on 'American justice' -- 1:24)

A Justice Department affidavit says Green and other soldiers planned to rape a young woman who lived near the checkpoint they manned in Mahmoudiya.

The affidavit says three soldiers allegedly accompanied Green into the house, and another soldier was told to monitor the radio while the assault took place.

The affidavit says Green shot the woman's relatives, including a girl of about 5; raped the young woman; then fatally shot her.

Soldiers are quoted in the affidavit as telling investigators that Green and his companions then set the family's house afire, threw an AK-47 rifle used in the killings into a canal and burned their bloodstained clothing.

Green was honorably discharged from the Army before the incident came to light after being diagnosed with an unspecified personality disorder, according to court papers.

The military charges against the five soldiers were issued Saturday. The military, in its news release, did not name them.

A U.S. defense official told CNN the five soldiers are still on their base in the Mahmoudiya area, have had their weapons taken away, and are being escorted everywhere they go on the base.

Green remains behind bars in Louisville, Kentucky.

The military, in its news release Sunday, wrote that the charges are "merely an accusation. Those accused are presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt."

The statement said the soldiers still on active duty will face an Article 32 investigation, similar to a grand jury hearing in civilian law. The Article 32 proceeding will determine whether there is enough evidence to place them on trial.



Get your facts straight dumbass!

[Guernicaa]

Completely void of reality.

Iraqis kill an astronomical amount more of their own than U.S. forces.

You just hate the U.S.A. and anything western no matter the situation. Your easier to read than Dr. Seuss.
Not really bud.
I just happen to realize that a lot of right-wingers have these insanely delusional thoughts on what goes on in the war.
It's typical pro-GOP rhetoric.

[Mr. P]

Not really. A small amount do die from "Islamic Bombers".
Those "Islamic Bombers" are after us, and they're usually Iraqi's or other random insurgents from around the Middle East.

A small amount? You call 100 dead by a bomber in a market a small amount?
You call a bomb in a civilian market a US target?

YOU FUCKING MORON!

[Guernicaa]

A small amount? You call 100 dead by a bomber in a market a small amount?
You call a bomb in a civilian market a US target?

YOU FUCKING MORON!
"Islamic Bombers" alone do not kill 100 Iraqi's a day...You either made that number up off the top of your head or aren't adding US soldiers as the cause of death.

[OCA]

lol...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/09/soldiers.charged/index.html




Get your facts straight dumbass!

Charged, never convicted.

Never happened.

[Mr. P]

"Islamic Bombers" alone do not kill 100 Iraqi's a day...You either made that number up off the top of your head or aren't adding US soldiers as the cause of death.

You're right, it's probably much more than 100 per day. City to city and so forth, it adds up.

[Guernicaa]

Charged, never convicted.

Never happened.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1789674.htm

Face it. They did it.

[Guernicaa]

You're right, it's probably much more than 100 per day. City to city and so forth, it adds up.
You are SOO full of shit.

[Samantha]

I don't know. I hate celebrities, I hate liberals and I sure as hell hate Jane Fonda, but they didn't all sound nuts. I think that little Bush-loving neocon twerp pretending to be Michael Moore was the one who looked bad. Most liberals protest the Iraq war because they'd protest any war, especially one waged by a Republican president, but this war does just happen to be a shitty war.You hate our founding fathers?

Michael Moore wasn't even in that video.

You sure are full of hate for a lot of people. But at least you realize this is a shitty war. I guess that's something.


You do realize it ain't the USA killing them, don't you? Can you say, "Islamic bombers"?We've invaded a country with a bombing campaign called shock and awe, we've occupied the country for 4 years and you are under the impression that we aren't killing the citizens of that country?

You're delusional!

[Guernicaa]

You're delusional!
Either that or they refuse to accept facts.

[OCA]

"Islamic Bombers" alone do not kill 100 Iraqi's a day...You either made that number up off the top of your head or aren't adding US soldiers as the cause of death.

A 1 month example in 2006 of Iraqis smoking Iraqis:






U.N.: 14,000 Iraqis killed in 2006
Holy city bomb kills 45; Armed robbers hit Baghdad bank

Tuesday, July 18, 2006; Posted: 5:45 p.m. EDT (21:45 GMT)


A man holds blood-soaked clothes after Tuesday's bombing in Kufa.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- More than 14,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq in the first half of this year, an ominous figure reflecting the fact that "killings, kidnappings and torture remain widespread" in the war-torn country, a United Nations report says.

Killings of civilians are on "an upward trend," with more than 5,800 deaths and more than 5,700 injuries reported in May and June alone, it says.

The report, a bimonthly document produced by the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq, covers May and June, and includes chilling casualty figures and ugly anecdotes from the insurgent and sectarian warfare that continues to rage despite the establishment of a national unity government and a security crackdown in Baghdad.

The report lists examples of bloody suicide bombs aimed at mosques, attacks on laborers, the recovery of slain bodies, the assassinations of judges, the killings of prisoners, the targeting of clergy -- all incidents dutifully reported by media over these three-plus years of chaos in the streets.

The U.N. agency says it has been made aware since last year of the targeting of homosexuals, "increasingly threatened and extra-judicially executed by militias and 'death squads' because of their sexual orientation."

The intolerance propelling the anti-gay prejudice extends to ethnic and religious minorities and others whose manner of dress doesn't meet the standards of religious extremists.

"On 28 May, an Iraqi tennis coach and two of his players were shot dead in Baghdad allegedly because they were wearing shorts. Similar threats are said to be made to induce men to conform to certain hair styles or rules regarding facial hair," the report says.

Women face intolerance -- and violence -- as well.

"In some Baghdad neighborhoods, women are now prevented from going to the markets alone. In other cases, women have been warned not to drive cars or have faced harassment if they wear trousers. Women have also reported that wearing a headscarf is becoming not a matter of religious choice but one of survival in many parts of Iraq, a fact which is particularly resented by non-Muslim women."

Academics and health professionals have been attacked, spurring them to leave the country or their home regions, causing a brain drain and a dislocation in services.

"Health care providers face difficulties in carrying out their work because of the limited supply of electricity and growing number of patients due to the increase in violence," the report says.

Kidnappings have been part of the chaotic Iraqi scene since the insurgency began, with many hostages killed even after a ransom is paid. The abductors are not only motivated by sectarianism or politics; organized crime appears to be involved with some of the kidnappings.

"On some occasions, sectarian connotations and alleged collusion with sectors of the police, as well as with militias, have been reported to UNAMI. Although there are no reliable statistics regarding this phenomenon, because Iraqis often are afraid to report such crimes to the police, the kidnappings are likely a daily occurrence," the report says.

For children, the "extent of violence in areas" other than the Kurdish region "is such that likely every child, to some degree, has been exposed to it," it says.

"In one case the body of a 12-year-old Osama was reportedly found by the Iraqi police in a plastic bag after his family paid a ransom of some 30,000 U.S. dollars. The boy had been sexually assaulted by the kidnappers, before being hanged by his own clothing. The police captured members of this gang who confessed of raping and killing many boys and girls before Osama," the report says.

Cultural symbols
"Civilian casualties resulted mainly from bombings and drive-by shootings, from indiscriminate attacks, in neighborhood markets or petrol stations, or following armed clashes with the police and the security forces," the report says.

"Civilians were also targeted or became unintended victims of insurgent or military actions.

"Terrorist acts against civilians have been aimed at fomenting sectarian violence or allegedly motivated by revenge and have targeted members of the Arab Shia and Sunni communities, including their cultural symbols, as well as markets in Shia neighborhoods."

Figures from the Medico-Legal Institute in Baghdad and the Ministry of Health show that the total number of civilians killed from January to June was 14,338.

In late June, the Ministry of Health "acknowledged information stating that since 2003 at least 50,000 persons have been killed in violence and stated the number of deaths are probably under-reported." the report says.

"The Baghdad morgue reportedly received 30,204 bodies from 2003 to mid-2006. Deaths numbering 18,933 occurred from 'military clashes' and 'terrorist attacks'" between April 5, 2004, and June 1, 2006.

The report also notes the probes by the United States into the alleged killings of 24 civilians in Haditha by U.S. troops as well the deaths caused by military operations throughout the country.

Other developments
At least 45 people were killed and 60 others wounded Tuesday morning when a suicide car bomber detonated in a busy Kufa marketplace where day laborers gather, Iraqi police said.

The attack took place around 7:30 a.m. near a Shia shrine.

Kufa is considered a holy place by Shia Muslims and is just outside Najaf, about 100 miles (160 kilometers) south of Baghdad.

Meanwhile, gunmen wearing Iraqi army uniforms on Tuesday stole 1.24 billion Iraqi dinars (about $675,000) from Rafidain Bank in western Baghdad early Tuesday afternoon, Iraqi emergency police told CNN.

An in the northern city of Kirkuk, a roadside bomb killed six policemen, Kirkuk police said. Another police officer was wounded in the incident, which occurred at 11:30 a.m. in Hawija.

On Monday, in a coordinated attack in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, at least 40 people were killed and wounded dozens, and small-arms fire killed a U.S. soldier in the capital.

The incidents took place as Sunni-Shiite sectarian violence festers in and near Baghdad.

[OCA]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1789674.htm

Face it. They did it.

No conviction, no incident.

[OCA]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1789674.htm

Face it. They did it.

Coerced and forced confession.

[Guernicaa]

I saw "40 people on monday" and other figures like that.

Nowhere did I see "200 soldiers killed in one day".

[Mr. P]

...

We've invaded a country with a bombing campaign called shock and awe, we've occupied the country for 4 years and you are under the impression that we aren't killing the citizens of that country?

You're delusional!

And you're a MORON to take my statement to that level of asinine.

[OCA]

I saw "40 people on monday" and other figures like that.

Nowhere did I see "200 soldiers killed in one day".

Uhh, what the fuck are you talking about? Put the needle down and pay attention.

[Mr. P]

You are SOO full of shit.

Check it out everyone reports each bombing and how many are killed..even the Arab press.

[lily]

Of course you don't. You lack foresight and courage and compassion. Iraqis who die today die for standing up for Freedom.

Yes and I can say the same about you, that you don't understand and lack forsight, but that's not debating the issues is it?

I'm sure that the families of the hundreds of Iraqis that die daily are getting comfort that they did it for Freedom......something they didn't ask for and seem to have no interst in obtaining.


Are you REALLY unable to see if we leave Iraq, The Terrorist WIN in Iraq?
Patreaes himself said this war can not be won by the military alone...but at least we've gotten off the subject of them somehow following us home.



Iraqis aren't fighting us - TERRORISTS are fighting us and Iraqis.

Other than another slogan, what are you trying to say here? Are you trying to convince me that there are no Iraqis fighting with the terrorists?

[OCA]

We've invaded a country with a bombing campaign called shock and awe, we've occupied the country for 4 years and you are under the impression that we aren't killing the citizens of that country?

You're delusional!

We kill noone but insurgents despite what the LMM tells you. Everybody at Abu Ghraib? All camel jockey insurgents or sympathizers.

Iraqis kill far more Iraqis through nefarious means then Americans even dream about.

I'd wager that 80+percent of Iraqis killed came from Iraqi hands.

[Samantha]

Obama08 forget it. OCA is delusional and hiding his head in the sand so he doesn't have to learn the truth. He doesn't want to know, so he will just go on with his fantasy view of the world. Bush makes it easy for them because Bush can say we don't torture and they believe it. Bush can say Iraq had WMD and they believe it. They are liar lovers, they are truth haters. It's pathetic and it's not worth trying to get them to learn about what they refuse to learn.

[Pale Rider]

So should the soldiers who rape and kill innocent Iraqi women.

Yeah be sure to get your AMERICA HATING comment in. You have to stay close to your communist agenda.

[OCA]

Obama08 forget it. OCA is delusional and hiding his head in the sand so he doesn't have to learn the truth. He doesn't want to know, so he will just go on with his fantasy view of the world. Bush makes it easy for them because Bush can say we don't torture and they believe it. Bush can say Iraq had WMD and they believe it. They are liar lovers, they are truth haters. It's pathetic and it's not worth trying to get them to learn about what they refuse to learn.

So you are of the belief that Iraqis don't kill Iraqis also? Your temper tantrum not withstanding.

[lily]

I saw "40 people on monday" and other figures like that.

Nowhere did I see "200 soldiers killed in one day".

You do the math.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/04/02/MNGCCOVUB41.DTL


CONFLICT IN IRAQ
500 Iraqis killed in week of violence
7 GIs die -- military concedes security push will take time

[OCA]

You do the math.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/04/02/MNGCCOVUB41.DTL


CONFLICT IN IRAQ
500 Iraqis killed in week of violence
7 GIs die -- military concedes security push will take time

How many of the Iraqis killed at the hands of other Iraqis? BTW that is the topic here honey.

[Pale Rider]

Bush can say Iraq had WMD and they believe it.

Aaaah.... tell me sammie, can you refresh my memory as to how it was Sadam killed HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Kurds? Did he STAB each and every one? Did he SHOOT each and every one? Did he ELECTROCUTE each and every one? Hang them maybe? No? None of the above? Then please tell me how he did it?


OOOOOoooooohh, that's right, HE USED WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!! You probably just FORGOT huh?

[lily]

How many of the Iraqis killed at the hands of other Iraqis? BTW that is the topic here honey.


In my best Emily Latella voice.........Oh, that's quite different... "Never mind."

[OCA]

In my best Emily Latella voice.........Oh, that's quite different... "Never mind."

Sure is different.

[Guernicaa]

You do the math.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGCCOVUB41.DTL


CONFLICT IN IRAQ
500 Iraqis killed in week of violence
7 GIs die -- military concedes security push will take time
71 a day.
Now lets examine what percent of that is caused by either:
-Civil war
-US soldiers
-Insurgents
-Other

[Guernicaa]

BTW that is the topic here honey
Sexist pig.

[OCA]

Sexist pig.

*OCA takes bow* *makes sure Obama isn't behind him trying to get at his cornhole*

[Guernicaa]

*OCA takes bow* *makes sure Obama isn't behind him trying to get at his cornhole*
Sorry, nobodys interested in your smelly cooch.

[OCA]

71 a day.
Now lets examine what percent of that is caused by either:
-Civil war
-US soldiers
-Insurgents
-Other

Well douchebag we are still waiting for you to examine, or did you examine and the findings don't support your laughable position?

[Samantha]

So you are of the belief that Iraqis don't kill Iraqis also? Your temper tantrum not withstanding.'We don't do body counts.' General Tommy Franks.


How many of the Iraqis killed at the hands of other Iraqis? BTW that is the topic here honey.Why don't you tell us? Or are you just here to insult people?


Aaaah.... tell me sammie, can you refresh my memory as to how it was Sadam killed HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Kurds? Did he STAB each and every one? Did he SHOOT each and every one? Did he ELECTROCUTE each and every one? Hang them maybe? No? None of the above? Then please tell me how he did it?


OOOOOoooooohh, that's right, HE USED WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!! You probably just FORGOT huh?Yeah I must have forgotten, it happened 30 years ago. Do you know how long chemical weapon's shelf life is? If he had any of those chemicals, that we sold him during the Reagan admin when Rummy went over to shake Saddam's hand and make that deal go down..... http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July2004/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg

if there were any left after he committed genocide on the Kurds, they would be useless after way less than 30 years.

Is that why we invaded Iraq? To bring justice for something he did 30 years ago?

[Pale Rider]

if there were any left after he committed genocide on the Kurds, they would be useless after way less than 30 years.

Is that why we invaded Iraq? To bring justice for something he did 30 years ago?

As usual, your facts are screwed up....


More than 100,000 Kurds were estimated to have been killed by Saddam's troops in 1988, including about 5,000 who were gassed to death in the Kurd city of Halabja and 8,000 members of a powerful clan who were reportedly rounded up and shot.

Up to 100,000 Shiites were killed, along with tens of thousands of Kurds, when Saddam moved to stamp out a rebellion after the first Gulf War in 1991.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,6119,2-10-1460_1736309,00.html

Too bad you couldn't have given saddam a BIG HUG before he got HUNG, since you LOVE HIM so much. He'd be proud of you defending him so.

And here's some more on the man/demon you so vehemently LOVE to defend....


Kurds Seek Justice in Next Saddam Trial



By Margaret Besheer
Irbil, Iraq
29 June 2006
Besheer report - Download 488k
Listen to Besheer report


Iraq's High Tribunal announced this week that former dictator Saddam Hussein and six co-defendants will go on trial August 21 for the mass killing of tens of thousands of Iraqi Kurds during the 1980s in what was called the Anfal Campaign. VOA's Margaret Besheer is in the Kurdish region of northern Iraq, and tells us hundreds of Kurds have volunteered to be witnesses at the trial, hoping for justice.

On February 25, 1988, Saddam Hussein's army began a campaign of mass murder against Iraqi Kurds living in the northern part of the country. When it ended the following September, tens of thousands of Kurdish men, women and children had been killed, or had disappeared. Some human rights groups estimate the number of dead to be as high as 182,000.

The regime's codename for the operation was al-Anfal, the title of a chapter in the Koran that means 'spoils of war' in Arabic.

In eight separate stages during 1988, Saddam's tanks and troops attacked and destroyed more than 4,000 Kurdish villages. They began their campaign in the east, in Sulamaniyah, and moved westward through Irbil to Dahuk, near Iraq's border with Turkey.

One of the worst attacks during this period was against the town of Halabja, on the Iran-Iraq border. Here, Saddam is accused of ordering the use of chemical weapons, killing some 5,000 civilians. This crime was so horrific that the Iraqi High Tribunal will consider it in a separate trial.

Almost 20 years later, many Anfal survivors have still not recovered from the loss of their loved ones, livelihoods and homes.

Chnar Abdullah Chnar Abdullah heads the newly-created Ministry for the Anfal in the Kurdish regional government. She says survivors face special problems.

"We have conducted research, and found that 20 percent of survivors, particularly women, are likely to have psychological problems, because they lost the men in their families," she said. "Until now, many still do not know what has happened to their loved ones, and they are still waiting for them to return."

As the starting date for the Anfal trial approaches, Abdullah says her ministry is working to prepare some of the evidence. She says more than 1,000 Kurds have offered to publicly testify against Saddam and his co-defendants, but the Tribunal has asked for only 200 witnesses.

She says, two things must come from this trial: that Saddam be found guilty of his crimes and face justice; and that the survivors be allowed the right to ask Saddam for compensation for their loss.

When Saddam's trial opens in August, it will be in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad. Yousif Shwan is the Kurdish regional government's human rights minister. His ministry was responsible for Anfal issues before the Anfal Ministry's creation. He says most Kurds want the trial to be held in northern Iraq.

"If you take the general idea of the people, they say he did these things in Kurdistan, so he should be brought to Kurdistan, and the trial held in Kurdistan," he said.


Hareer villagers In the village of Hareer, residents live frozen in time. Their lives stopped on the morning in July 1983, when they lost everything. It was here that Saddam's troops killed some 8,000 men and boys from the Barzani tribe in retribution for their leader, Massoud Barzani's alliance with Tehran during the Iran-Iraq war. Although earlier than the 1988 campaign, these crimes are also considered to be Anfal by the Kurds, and will be part of the case against Saddam in August.

8,000 members of the Barzani tribe were massacred on July 31, 1983Pirouz remembers when Saddam's troops surrounded her village.

"It was before dawn and still dark; we were sleeping when they attacked us," she said. "They took the boys and the men."

Recently, mass graves were unearthed in the western Iraqi desert containing the bones of some of these missing men and boys.

Although Saddam's trial will be held in Baghdad and not northern Iraq, many Kurds are relieved that the former dictator will finally have to answer for the suffering he has caused their people.

http://www.bloggernews.net/2006/06/kurds-seek-justice-in-next-saddam_30.html

[Hagbard Celine]

Of course you don't. You lack foresight and courage and compassion. Iraqis who die today die for standing up for Freedom. Are you REALLY unable to see if we leave Iraq, The Terrorist WIN in Iraq? Iraqis aren't fighting us - TERRORISTS are fighting us and Iraqis.

They aren't "standing up for freedom." They're fighting a sectarian civil war. They're only interested in the dominance of thier own religious sect. By the way, many, many, many more Iraqis have died as a result of our "liberation" than did under Saddam's rule. It's a fact jack.

[Pale Rider]

By the way, many, many, many more Iraqis have died as a result of our "liberation" than did under Saddam's rule. It's a fact jack.

Prove it.

[Hagbard Celine]

Prove it.


According to the article, violence was responsible for most of the extra deaths whether or not the Fallujah data was excluded. Coalition airstrikes would be the main cause of these violent deaths if Falluja data were included. The study makes the controversial conclusion that: "Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters, and were mainly attributed to coalition forces." and "Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most violent deaths." The study estimates that the risk of death specifically from violence in Iraq during the period after the invasion was approximately 58 times higher than in the period before the war, with the CI95 being 8.1-419, meaning that there is a 97.5% chance that the risk of death from violence after the invasion is at least 8.1 times higher than it was before.


"The most common causes of death before the invasion of Iraq were heart attacks, strokes and other chronic diseases. However, after the invasion, violence was recorded as the primary cause of death and was mainly attributed to coalition forces—with about 95 percent of those deaths caused by bombs or fire from helicopter gunships".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_mortality_before_and_after_the_2 003_invasion_of_Iraq

It's common sense. Before the invasion people weren't warring in the streets.

[Hobbit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_mortality_before_and_after_the_2 003_invasion_of_Iraq

It's common sense. Before the invasion people weren't warring in the streets.

Might wanna check the 'criticisms' part of that article. It's also been shown to be very difficult to actually calculate civilian deaths, as many non-civilians aren't wearing anything to identify them as such. Curiously, nearly ever figure detailing 'civilian' deaths is very heavily weighted in the demographic of able-bodied men between 18 and 35, leading many, including myself, to draw the obvious conclusion that un-uniformed terrorists are being counted as civilians.

There's carnage, to be sure, but to say things were better off under Saddam goes against the opinions of the majority of Iraqis.

[Hagbard Celine]

Might wanna check the 'criticisms' part of that article. It's also been shown to be very difficult to actually calculate civilian deaths, as many non-civilians aren't wearing anything to identify them as such. Curiously, nearly ever figure detailing 'civilian' deaths is very heavily weighted in the demographic of able-bodied men between 18 and 35, leading many, including myself, to draw the obvious conclusion that un-uniformed terrorists are being counted as civilians.

There's carnage, to be sure, but to say things were better off under Saddam goes against the opinions of the majority of Iraqis.

Might wanna check the responses to those criticisms sonny. They don't have basic healthcare, utilities or the ability to walk down the street without getting killed. They had all three under Saddam, not to mention many more of their countrymen and women.

[Hobbit]

Might wanna check the responses to those criticisms sonny. They don't have basic healthcare, utilities or the ability to walk down the street without getting killed. They had all three under Saddam, not to mention many more of their countrymen and women.

Yeah, I read it all, and the criticism responses don't make the criticisms invalid. This article also seems to completely omit many of the areas of Iraq far away from Baghdad and the Sunni triangle where things are actually going pretty well. I thought I recently read a study saying 80% of the violence was in and around Baghdad.

[Hagbard Celine]

Yeah, I read it all, and the criticism responses don't make the criticisms invalid. This article also seems to completely omit many of the areas of Iraq far away from Baghdad and the Sunni triangle where things are actually going pretty well. I thought I recently read a study saying 80% of the violence was in and around Baghdad.

Look, it doesn't matter--fuck the article. The point is that more people died as a result of the American invasion and war in Iraq than did under Saddam.

[Pale Rider]

Look, it doesn't matter--fuck the article. The point is that more people died as a result of the American invasion and war in Iraq than did under Saddam.

You still can't make that claim. You haven't proved it.

Saddam was known to have killed upwards to three hundred thousand people. Show me where and how America is resposible for more deaths than that.

[Hagbard Celine]

You still can't make that claim. You haven't proved it.

Saddam was known to have killed upwards to three hundred thousand people. Show me where and how America is resposible for more deaths than that.

Why don't you provide some information. Seems it's always me that has to do it and then you guys whine about my articles. BTW the study I posted was the same one conducted during the Kosovo war to determine the war deaths in that conflict. Seems nobody had a problem with it then :dunno: I guess partisan politics does a good job of drawing out the flaws in statistical studies. :rolleyes:

[Hagbard Celine]

You still can't make that claim. You haven't proved it.

Saddam was known to have killed upwards to three hundred thousand people. Show me where and how America is resposible for more deaths than that.

BTW I'm going to need proof of the 300,000 number you posted. I don't believe it.

[Pale Rider]

BTW I'm going to need proof of the 300,000 number you posted. I don't believe it.

Suuuure you don't. You start with the outrageous claims and then try and hand if off... ain't workin' son.

Prove your point or you lose.

[Hagbard Celine]

Suuuure you don't. You start with the extravigant claims and then try and hand if off... ain't workin' son.

Prove your point or STFU.

You prove yours. I provided proof. It's not my problem you didn't like it. Now prove your point.

[Pale Rider]

You prove yours. I provided proof. It's not my problem you didn't like it. Now prove your point.

No you didn't prove your point. You posted some opinion piece with no numbers or facts about anything. Well it said something about how dangerous it is in Bagdad, but that's it!

You're trying to say that more people have died since America entered Iraq than when Saddam was in power. You HAVE NOT PROVED THAT. Not even close.

Try again, or you lose.

[Hagbard Celine]

No you didn't prove your point. You posted some opinion piece with no numbers or facts about anything. Well it said something about how dangerous it is in Bagdad, but that's it!

You're trying to say that more people have died since America entered Iraq than when Saddam was in power. You HAVE NOT PROVED THAT. Not even close.

Try again, or you lose.

It's not an opinion piece! It's wiki article about an official study! Tu es loco.

[Pale Rider]

It's not an opinion piece! It's wiki article about an official study! Tu es loco.

Still, it was only about how dangerous Bagdad is now, not about how many people have died comparatively under Saddam, and now.