Riots in Egypt [Archive] - Debate Policy

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 09:24 AM

Abso could be very useful here. I have been reading about the riots in Egypt and Tunisia, but not a lot of information coming out and the news isn't carrying much on it. Mubarik's son and his family have supposedly fled to France and it seems there's going to be a major crack down soon.

I also was reading an article that stated the majority of Egyptians were uneducated. That seemed odd. The article also mentioned Tunisians were educated.

Whenever Abso gets back from his studies it would be interesting to hear from him about events in his country. And how accurate the news reports are.

Like any country Egypt is complex when it comes to its problems. In this case though, it seems the middle class is involved with the protests against the government. I'm guessing that Abso comes from the top 1/4 of the population, seeing perhaps a different Egypt than the middle and lower classes.

The population is young, though the rate of growth is not like most Muslim countries. The amount spent on education is about 3% of GDP. Literacy rate is 51%, considering literacy at a 5th grade RL, to say the country as a whole is uneducated is certainly a true statement.

There are forces in Egypt pushing for orthodox Islam, indeed Egypt was one of the countries that bin Laden spent a lot of time in prior to actually becoming the leading for of al Queda.

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 09:59 AM

I am finally back, the last exam was today ;).

i will be available to answer any questions, i am waiting for yours :salute:

So what's happening in the street there? My reading says the islamists are really pushing hard to get things stirred up. What are the possibilities of mubarik being forced out? How would that affect you? Is the rioting wide spread or contained in a small area? The media likes to zoom in and make it look worse than it really is.

abso

01-27-2011, 10:34 AM

Like any country Egypt is complex when it comes to its problems. In this case though, it seems the middle class is involved with the protests against the government. I'm guessing that Abso comes from the top 1/4 of the population, seeing perhaps a different Egypt than the middle and lower classes.

The population is young, though the rate of growth is not like most Muslim countries. The amount spent on education is about 3% of GDP. Literacy rate is 51%, considering literacy at a 5th grade RL, to say the country as a whole is uneducated is certainly a true statement.

There are forces in Egypt pushing for orthodox Islam, indeed Egypt was one of the countries that bin Laden spent a lot of time in prior to actually becoming the leading for of al Queda.

why did you assume that i am from the top 1/4 of the population ??? :rolleyes:

abso

01-27-2011, 10:39 AM

So what's happening in the street there? My reading says the islamists are really pushing hard to get things stirred up. What are the possibilities of mubarik being forced out? How would that affect you? Is the rioting wide spread or contained in a small area? The media likes to zoom in and make it look worse than it really is.

i will answer all of your questions in details when i get back home, my cousin just got back from his honeymoon in Thailand, and i am going to pay him a visit to congratulate him on the marriage. ;)

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 10:53 AM

i will answer all of your questions in details when i get back home, my cousin just got back from his honeymoon in Thailand, and i am going to pay him a visit to congratulate him on the marriage. ;)

And you wonder why we think your in the top 1/4 of the population. :rolleyes:

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 10:53 AM

why did you assume that i am from the top 1/4 of the population ??? :rolleyes:

College education. Talk about coming to US for grad work. That's not the lot of poor or middle class in most countries. Europeans tend to travel a bit, but then again it's location. Cousin just came back from Thailand for honeymoon. Yep, doesn't sound like most middle class families.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 10:56 AM

So what's happening in the street there? My reading says the islamists are really pushing hard to get things stirred up. What are the possibilities of mubarik being forced out? How would that affect you? Is the rioting wide spread or contained in a small area? The media likes to zoom in and make it look worse than it really is.

Egypt is looking more and more like pre-Revolution Iran. There are problems there, serious problems. The overthrow of the government though is not necessarily in the best interests of the area. A revolution there is likely to turn out very bad.

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 11:11 AM

Egypt is looking more and more like pre-Revolution Iran. There are problems there, serious problems. The overthrow of the government though is not necessarily in the best interests of the area. A revolution there is likely to turn out very bad.

The list of islamic groups involved in the rioting was extensive. It is looking very much like iran's revolution. An autocratic ruler being forced out by religious nut jobs. And just like iran our administration is doing nothing, yawning and sitting back to watch. We are seeing the makings of a islamic soviet block building here.

abso

01-27-2011, 11:26 AM

College education. Talk about coming to US for grad work. That's not the lot of poor or middle class in most countries. Europeans tend to travel a bit, but then again it's location. Cousin just came back from Thailand for honeymoon. Yep, doesn't sound like most middle class families.

:rolleyes:

abso

01-27-2011, 11:33 AM

The list of islamic groups involved in the rioting was extensive. It is looking very much like iran's revolution. An autocratic ruler being forced out by religious nut jobs. And just like iran our administration is doing nothing, yawning and sitting back to watch. We are seeing the makings of a islamic soviet block building here.

just a basic info till i am able to explain in details...

the riots didn't have anything to do at all with any islamic movements, it was organized by the youth on Facebook to express their anger from the government, and the islamic organizations in egypt didn't take part in the riots which was supposed to be peaceful at first, but i believe that few stupid violent islamists blinded within the crowds to start the riot, or maybe just a stupid nervous young man started it, we will never know, it just takes one stone thrown at the police to convert a peaceful demonstration into riots, so we will never know who threw that stone.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 11:34 AM

:rolleyes:

Ok, why can you post smilies, but not answer Gaffer? You also totally ignore any points he or I brought up. So, your family are from the lower 73% of the population?

Thunderknuckles

01-27-2011, 11:41 AM

.. And just like iran our administration is doing nothing, yawning and sitting back to watch. We are seeing the makings of a islamic soviet block building here.
Keep in mind that a big part of the Islamic Revolution in Iran was, in fact, do to US involvement. It was a CIA covert operation that ousted their Prime Minister in favor of a US backed leader which pissed off the Islamic hardliners and ultimately helped fuel the revolution years later. We didn't just sit back and watch, we supplied the kindling for the fire.

There are similarities here with Egypt. While Egypt's leaders weren't propped up by the US, their close ties with the "West" don't sit well with the hard line Islamic conservatives and this will probably get worse over time. On thing is for sure, an Islamic Revolution in Egypt would be a nasty affair with a negative global impact.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 11:42 AM

Keep in mind that a big part of the Islamic Revolution in Iran was, in fact, do to US involvement. It was a CIA covert operation that ousted their Prime Minister in favor of a US backed leader which pissed off the Islamic hardliners and ultimately helped fuel the revolution years later. We didn't just sit back and watch, we supplied the kindling for the fire.

There are similarities here with Egypt. While Egypt's leaders weren't propped up by the US, their close ties with the "West" don't sit well with the hard line Islamic conservatives and this will probably get worse over time. On thing is for sure, an Islamic Revolution in Egypt would be a nasty affair with a negative global impact.

Carter during the Iranian Revolution, Obama during Egypt's. Another crossover.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 11:47 AM

Information is going to be harder to get, within and without:

http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/27/blackberry-internet-service-reportedly-blocked-in-egypt/

BlackBerry Internet Service Reportedly Blocked In Egypt

Leena Rao
20 minutes ago

This just keeps getting worse. After blocking Twitter and Facebook, it looks like the Egyptian government or carriers may have blocked Blackberry internet service as well. According to chatter on Twitter, internet access via Blackberry phones has been suspended....

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 11:49 AM

just a basic info till i am able to explain in details...

the riots didn't have anything to do at all with any islamic movements, it was organized by the youth on Facebook to express their anger from the government, and the islamic organizations in egypt didn't take part in the riots which was supposed to be peaceful at first, but i believe that few stupid violent islamists blinded within the crowds to start the riot, or maybe just a stupid nervous young man started it, we will never know, it just takes one stone thrown at the police to convert a peaceful demonstration into riots, so we will never know who threw that stone.

That's not what the media here is reporting. Of course the media here is famous for misreporting events. They are talking about the rioting going into the third day. what's your take on that?

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 11:52 AM

And it's spreading to neighboring countries:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/27/AR2011012702081.html

Inspired by Tunisia and Egypt, Yemenis join in anti-government protests

By Sudarsan Raghavan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, January 27, 2011; 8:57 AM

SANAA, YEMEN - Thousands of Yemenis took to the streets Thursday demanding an end to the government of President Ali Abdullah Saleh, who has ruled this impoverished Middle Eastern nation for more than three decades.

The rally, one of the largest demonstrations this capital has seen in recent memory, unfolded in four different neighborhoods and was inspired by the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt.

Yemen's unrest represents a widening of the upheavals unfolding across the Arab world. It poses yet another threat to the stability of this U.S. ally, which al-Qaeda militants are using as a base to target the West and its allies.

"Look at Tunisia with pride," the crowds chanted. "Yemen has strong people, too."

The protests followed two days of riots in Egypt and daily demonstrations on the streets of Tunisian capital, Tunis. But unlike the protests in Tunisia and Egypt, Thursday's rally here was peaceful. It was fueled by boisterous opposition party members, from socialists to Islamists, and youth activists...

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 11:54 AM

Information is going to be harder to get, within and without:

http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/27/blackberry-internet-service-reportedly-blocked-in-egypt/

Seems to be a bit more than just a few facebook people. I wonder how long abso will be able to post at this rate. I do hope he's not a Baghdad Bob.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 11:57 AM

And from this very recent AP report, who does Abso sound like?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7400626.html

Egypt ruling party offers no concessions
By HAMZA HENDAWI and HADEEL AL-SHALCHI Associated Press © 2011 The Associated Press
Jan. 27, 2011, 10:35AM

CAIRO — Egypt's ruling party said Thursday it was ready for a dialogue with the public but offered no concessions to address demands for a solution to rampant poverty and political change heard in the country's largest anti-government protests in years.

At the same time, the grass roots protest movement was getting a double boost likely energize the largest anti-government demonstrations Egypt has seen in years. Mohammed ElBaradei, a Nobel peace laureate and the country's top pro-democracy advocate, was returning to the country Thursday night and declared he was ready to lead the protests. The country's largest opposition group — the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood — also threw its support behind the demonstrations.

Rioting and protests erupted for a third straight day and social networking sites were abuzz with talk that Friday's rallies could be some of the biggest so far calling for the ouster of President Hosni Mubarak after 30-years in power. Millions gather at mosques across the city for Friday prayers, providing organizers with a huge number of people already out on the streets to tap into.

Safwat El-Sherif, the secretary general of the National Democratic Party and a longtime confidant of Mubarak, was dismissive of the protesters at the first news conference by a senior ruling party figure since the protests began.

"We are confident of our ability to listen. The NDP is ready for a dialogue with the public, youth and legal parties," he said. "But democracy has its rules and process. The minority does not force its will on the majority."...

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 11:59 AM

Seems to be a bit more than just a few facebook people. I wonder how long abso will be able to post at this rate. I do hope he's not a Baghdad Bob.

My guess is his information is very limited and confined to government sources. Sources he trusts without question. One of the problems with a quasi-autocratic government is those in power are often at the mercy of the ruling people. They are those that find themselves needing to get out of Dodge.

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 12:01 PM

And it's spreading to neighboring countries:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/27/AR2011012702081.html

If they were about democracy and getting rid of autocratic rule I would have no problem with the riots. But they are backed by islamists and these countries will all go like iran in the long run. Saudi's should be next.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 12:02 PM

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 12:02 PM

My guess is his information is very limited and confined to government sources. Sources he trusts without question. One of the problems with a quasi-autocratic government is those in power are often at the mercy of the ruling people. They are those that find themselves needing to get out of Dodge.

Yeah, I tend to think he's living in a bubble there and not getting all the information.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 12:03 PM

If they were about democracy and getting rid of autocratic rule I would have no problem with the riots. But they are backed by islamists and these countries will all go like iran in the long run. Saudi's should be next.

The problem with so many uneducated, they are at the mercy of any group that offers hope. For many reasons, that often involves religious leaders and their agendas.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 12:07 PM

Yeah, I tend to think he's living in a bubble there and not getting all the information.

I agree. I think he's a good person that really attempts to have a broader understanding of issues, yet it's obvious that while educated academically his depth of understanding of the real state of his country is limited in ways we just cannot relate to.

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 12:22 PM

If the government is controlling the cell phones and internet his access to information is going to be limited. We might be giving him info he doesn't have. But he wouldn't dare to say anything that is not government approved. So we have to determine; is he living in a bubble, in denial (pun intended), or a Baghdad Bob putting out false propaganda.

NightTrain

01-27-2011, 02:01 PM

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 02:13 PM

I don't know, guys. I'm leaning towards Good Thing with this unrest.

Granted, if the shit hits the fan there's bound to be nutjobs taking the reins and that'll be a setback.

However, I can't think of any time in the past that arabs have protested publicly and in large numbers against their governments. I think this may, in the long run, be a healthy thing. Even if the government is seized by hard liners, the peasants will still have the knowledge that they don't have to accept things and they do have the power to change things.

Who knows, this could provide the opportunity for their George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the like to step up to the plate.

I agree, it has the potential of being a real good thing. But the hardliners are dangerous and once they get a grip the peasants won't have the opportunity to throw them out. That is what has happened repeatedly throughout the region. I think they are more in need of a Martin Luther right now than a George Washington. A combination of both would be nice.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 02:17 PM

I don't know, guys. I'm leaning towards Good Thing with this unrest.

Granted, if the shit hits the fan there's bound to be nutjobs taking the reins and that'll be a setback.

However, I can't think of any time in the past that arabs have protested publicly and in large numbers against their governments. I think this may, in the long run, be a healthy thing. Even if the government is seized by hard liners, the peasants will still have the knowledge that they don't have to accept things and they do have the power to change things.

Who knows, this could provide the opportunity for their George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the like to step up to the plate.

I strongly disagree. As discussed earlier, the mass of people are uneducated and susceptible to both individuals and ideologies harmful to their neighbors, including Israel. Iran would move in a heartbeat.

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 02:28 PM

I bet iran's finger prints are all over this.

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 02:39 PM

Just doesn't look like a few people having a demonstration to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110127/wl_mideast_afp/egyptpoliticsunrest_20110127181356

CAIRO (AFP) – Protests raged in Egypt for a third straight day Thursday as pro-democracy activists, galvanised by the return of dissident Mohamed ElBaradei, vowed to step up efforts to oust President Hosni Mubarak.

ElBaradei, a Nobel laureate and former chief of the UN nuclear watchdog, arrived from Vienna Thursday evening in Cairo, where according to his brother he will join mass protests planned after weekly Muslim prayers on Friday.

"It is a critical time in the life of Egypt. I have come to participate with the Egyptian people," said ElBaradei, a vocal critic of Mubarak, as he left Cairo airport.

Earlier in Vienna he told reporters he was ready to "lead the transition" in Egypt if asked.

"If people, in particularly young people, if they want me to lead the transition I will not let them down. My priority right now is to see a new Egypt and to see a new Egypt through peaceful transition," he said.

His arrival came on the third straight day of angry nationwide protests, which have built into the largest uprising in three decades, during which seven people have been killed -- five protesters and two policemen -- and more than 100 injured.

A security official told AFP that around 1,000 protesters had been arrested since the protests began.

While a heavy security clamp Thursday prevented protesters from massing in the centre of Cairo as they did Tuesday and Wednesday, violent clashes erupted in the cities of Suez and Ismailiya, and in a Sinai town where a protester was shot dead by police, according to witnesses.

NightTrain

01-27-2011, 04:40 PM

I strongly disagree. As discussed earlier, the mass of people are uneducated and susceptible to both individuals and ideologies harmful to their neighbors, including Israel. Iran would move in a heartbeat.

Well, of course Egypt would have to be protected from any country attempting to strike while they're most vulnerable as they sort things out.

Iran wouldn't mobilize if they're told bluntly they'll get their asses annihilated long before reaching Egyptian borders - they know we have the capability of doing so easily.

Besides, Israel would not stand by idly with a mass Iranian expeditionary force on the move. They'll strike at the first Iranian move outside of their borders.

Now, internal meddling such as the kind they've been doing with Iraq is definitely something they'd be doing and probably are doing right now... and that's difficult, if not impossible to try and stop.

abso

01-27-2011, 04:46 PM

Ok, why can you post smilies, but not answer Gaffer? You also totally ignore any points he or I brought up. So, your family are from the lower 73% of the population?

this is not an argument, so don't get angry... ;)

i could post smiles but not answers because i had only 10 minutes until we go out, so it wasnt enough time to post answers.

no, my family aren't from the lower 73% of the population, but my family class or income doesn't concern anyone here, does it ?

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 06:25 PM

this is not an argument, so don't get angry... ;)

i could post smiles but not answers because i had only 10 minutes until we go out, so it wasnt enough time to post answers.

no, my family aren't from the lower 73% of the population, but my family class or income doesn't concern anyone here, does it ?

Not here, but probably there. :rolleyes: You just seem miffed that we pegged you were of the privileged class. That's not a slam at you, many of us grew up with more than average. However, it does seem to indicate you may not be as 'in touch' with the heartbeat of Egypt as you think.

Of all the posts since I wrote that one, it's the only topic you keep returning to. Why? Can't respond to one of the one's about your country that seem to be a tad different than a few angry youths? This was no facebook flame.

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 07:21 PM

this is not an argument, so don't get angry... ;)

i could post smiles but not answers because i had only 10 minutes until we go out, so it wasnt enough time to post answers.

no, my family aren't from the lower 73% of the population, but my family class or income doesn't concern anyone here, does it ?

No ones arguing or angry. I'm asking questions. You have stated in many posts that we know nothing about your country and that you live there and know what's really happening. So I have been asking you. I'm getting a Baghdad Bob response so far. It's just a few people responding to a facebook call to protest. This is major and involves many countries. And Egypt is a key member of the arab states in the region so what happens there is important.

If the current regime falls are you in danger? Are you following the events there?

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 07:45 PM

FOX news just announced that all internet service in Egypt has been shut down. So abso will be offline for a while.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 07:48 PM

FOX news just announced that all internet service in Egypt has been shut down. So abso will be offline for a while.

And he claims that 'we' don't get the truth. When was the last time our internet was turned off? We complain about the media, vehemently, yet compared to most of the world, what we need to know is out there, sometimes from Europe first, but followed in shame by our own. Same with Europe, in reverse. ;)

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 07:59 PM

And he claims that 'we' don't get the truth. When was the last time our internet was turned off? We complain about the media, vehemently, yet compared to most of the world, what we need to know is out there, sometimes from Europe first, but followed in shame by our own. Same with Europe, in reverse. ;)

Baghdad Bob is silenced again. I was hoping he would give us regular reports on the goings on there and maybe some info that wasn't making the news. He seems to have bought into the government propaganda instead.

Maybe now he'll believe us when we say it's serious business there.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he may not be able to express himself freely.

Kathianne

01-27-2011, 08:08 PM

Baghdad Bob is silenced again. I was hoping he would give us regular reports on the goings on there and maybe some info that wasn't making the news. He seems to have bought into the government propaganda instead.

Maybe now he'll believe us when we say it's serious business there.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he may not be able to express himself freely.

True, but I don't think that's it. The privileged classes in less than free countries need to believe that the government is good and the media fair. Like I said, I think Abso believes and was raised and educated to believe that the country is good, just, etc.

The people he knows are probably much like him, he's not exposed to those others anymore than I am those living in squalor in Chicago.

Gaffer

01-27-2011, 08:37 PM

True, but I don't think that's it. The privileged classes in less than free countries need to believe that the government is good and the media fair. Like I said, I think Abso believes and was raised and educated to believe that the country is good, just, etc.

The people he knows are probably much like him, he's not exposed to those others anymore than I am those living in squalor in Chicago.

True, that's why I said I think he lives in a bubble.

revelarts

01-28-2011, 02:31 PM

Abso position's kind of reminds me of the the young South Africans of a few years back. probably not quite as dramatic but similar.

Switching gears

The fact that the internet and cell have been cut off in Egypt is clear and pointed example of a reason why we DO NOT need to consolidate gov't's. Ie European Union, North American Union, World gov't..

Keeping states smaller gives the people more access to the "ruling" parties and access to people outside of the "rulers" authority to contact for support of various kinds.

Kathianne

01-28-2011, 02:46 PM

I've been pretty busy today and have been reading about the cut off and analysis of whether or not Mubarak can survive this. One good interpretation was that, 'Yes, as long as the government could control and not be overwhelmed by protestors, however if they needed to call the army out, all bets off. Armies tend to not want to shoot on their own people to keep government in power.'

Just saw on Yahoo:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt_protest

Egyptian military deploys in Cairo under curfew
By MAGGIE MICHAEL and HADEEL AL-SHALCHI, Associated Press Maggie Michael And Hadeel Al-shalchi, Associated Press 1 hr 16 mins ago

CAIRO – Egypt's military deployed on the streets of Cairo to enforce a nighttime curfew as the sun set Friday on a day of rioting and violent chaos that was a major escalation in the challenge to authoritarian President Hosni Mubarak's 30-year rule.

Still thousands in the capital Cairo defied a nationwide night curfew and were trying to storm two major government buildings — the state TV and the Foreign Ministry. Others were praying on the streets after nightfall.

Flames rose up across a number of cities from burning tires and police cars. Even the ruling party headquarters in Cairo was ablaze in the outpouring of rage, bitterness and utter frustration with a regime seen as corrupt, heavy-handed and neglectful of grinding poverty that afflicts nearly half of the 80 million Egyptians. Hundreds were looting television sets and electric fans from the burning complex of buildings used by the ruling party.

One protester was killed in demonstrations that stretched across nearly half the provinces in Egypt, bringing the death toll for four days of protests to eight.

"I can't believe our own police, our own government would keep beating up on us like this," said Cairo protester Ahmad Salah, 26. "I've been here for hours and gassed and keep going forward, and they keep gassing us, and I will keep going forward. This is a cowardly government and it has to fall. We're going to make sure of it."

Internet and cell phone services, at least in Cairo, appeared to be largely cut off since overnight in the most extreme measure so far to try to hamper protesters form organizing. However, that did not prevent tens of thousands from flooding the streets, emboldened by the recent uprising in Tunisia — another North African Arab nation.

Even Nobel Peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei, one of the country's leading pro-democracy advocates, was under house arrest after joining the protests....

non-embed video gives an idea of size today:

http://blogs.knoxnews.com/silence/archives/2011/01/egypts_tiananme.shtml

Gaffer

01-28-2011, 03:36 PM

Kathianne

01-28-2011, 03:42 PM

I bet iran's finger prints are all over this.

I think it's a combination of real corrupt government, Islamic extreme interference, now the Muslim Brotherhood's on the bandwagon, the two are connectible. It's the connection with Muslim Brotherhood that cements the Iranian component:

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/01/28/elbaradei-friend-of-the-muslim-brotherhood/

ElBaradei: friend of the Muslim Brotherhood

If the Egyptian unrest was happening in a number of other Middle Eastern states, particularly Syria and Iran, a resulting revolution would likely lead to a better government than the one that had fallen. But that’s not so much the case in Egypt. There are pro-democracy forces there, but there are also very strong Islamist forces there, and while the latter don’t have the numbers of the former, they probably do have one quality that will enable them in the midst of the chaos: Ruthlessness.

That in mind, it’s very much worth keeping an eye on Mohamed ElBaradei. The former UN nuclear weapons cop is in Egypt, under house arrest, and setting himself up as the democratic opposition leader to counter Mubarak. But in an article attempting to make ElBaradei seem like a decent alternative to the current Egyptian ruler, Bruce Reidel discloses the following:

Egypt’s new opposition leader, former International Atomic Energy Agency head Mohamed ElBaradei, has formed a loose alliance with the Brotherhood because he knows it is the only opposition group that can mobilize masses of Egyptians, especially the poor. He says he can work with it to change Egypt. Many scholars of political Islam also judge the Brotherhood is the most reasonable face of Islamic politics in the Arab world today. Skeptics fear ElBaradei will be swept along by more radical forces.

ElBaradei is a radical himself to some extent. During his time with the International Atomic Energy Agency, he oftentimes served as an apologist for Iran’s nuclear program. He hasn’t shown himself to be a friend of the United States. The “loose alliance” he has established with the Muslim Brotherhood, the ideological grandfather to al Qaeda, is a mile-wide red flag that if he succeeds Mubarak, Egypt will probably fall out of alliance with the US and Israel and will likely fall into Iran’s orbit.

For their part, the mullahs are greeting the Egpytian unrest with open arms.

Update: Robert Gibbs, outgoing WH spokesman, is talking up ElBaradei in the press briefing, but stopped short of endorsing him as an alternative to Mubarak. This White House must tread very very carefully here. ElBaradei may be a “Nobel laureate” as Gibbs said, but that award was, like the Nobel given to Jimmy Carter three years earlier, largely a political award given to express disdain for George W. Bush and his wartime policies. The notion that ElBaradei did anything to make the world more peaceful is ludicrous.

NightTrain

01-28-2011, 04:00 PM

Good point, Hussein Obama and ElBaradei already have common ground with undeserved Nobel prizes and muslim connections.

I'm still hoping that the upheaval forces modernization in the region.

Gaffer

01-28-2011, 04:15 PM

Kathianne

01-28-2011, 04:57 PM

Good point, Hussein Obama and ElBaradei already have common ground with undeserved Nobel prizes and muslim connections.

I'm still hoping that the upheaval forces modernization in the region.

Real modernization reforms would have to have a leadership core of really educated reformers. That's lacking here. Personally I thing El Baradei is a tool, watched it throughout the pre-Iraq invasion weapons inspections. He's one of those from appearances that thinks peace at all costs and that 'all those of lower stations need government to take care of them.' So he, a very educated person is basically controlled by mullahs and such, whether he's religious or not, there are connections with the poor.

Sad to say that very educated Catholics often fall under this type of delusion, that the poor are righteous and deserve to be 'empowered.' Now they don't mean actually running things, like a CEO, but it feels so good to speak of social justice and being 'Christ-like.' Which is part of the reason so many are liberals, regardless of issues like abortion.

This uprising didn't spring from the Muslim Brotherhood, in fact they were pretty late getting on board, however they have the organization to actually keep things going, possibly until Mubarek is gone.

Kathianne

01-28-2011, 05:10 PM

Just found this and it's very interesting. PJ Media may be coming into it's own:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/egypt-whats-happening-now/

Egypt: What’s Happening Now (Continuously Updated)
An important announcement is coming shortly, says Egyptian state-run TV. (Also read Michael Totten for more coverage of the situation.)
January 28, 2011 - by Josh Shahryar
Share |
UPDATE (4:59p EST): There is a strong likelihood, being discussed right now, that President Hosni Mubarak may have already left the country. He was due to appear on TV, which had been announced hours ago, yet no word came of that. Instead, the parliament speaker, who is first in line to succeed the president, appeared on TV and said there will be an announcement shortly. Speculation is that if Mubarak were in the country, the speaker Ahmad Fathi Sorour wouldn’t have had to make the announcement and Mubarak would have appeared on TV himself. The president’s wife, son, and a grandchild left the country for Europe two days ago.
So far, the Army, which was mobilized by the government a few hours ago, has not directly stepped in to stop the protests. This is good news for protesters who have beaten back the riot police and other security forces for the most part, and are in virtually uncontested control of major parts of Cairo and other cities. The Army is simply securing important government buildings and broadcasting facilities in Cairo and other cities.

Protesters remain on the streets and the chaos continues as the world awaits word from the Egyptian government.

———————-

UPDATE (4:35p EST): Egyptian Parliament Speaker Ahmad Fathi Sorour appeared on state TV and said: “An important matter will be announced shortly.” No further details.

Protests continue. On the other side of the world, reports suggest that in Caracas, Venezuela, a group of protesting Arabs and Egyptians have entered and taken over the Egyptian embassy there.

———–

UPDATE (4:11p EST): Protesters also remain out on the streets in Suez, and several buildings are on fire there as well. Al Jazeera now confirms 11 dead, 150 injured and 20 critically injured in that city. That brings the total number of deaths that can be confirmed for today to 12. Sources are claiming as many as 1,000 people have been arrested all over the country, but there is no way to confirm that number.
There are reports that influential businessmen and even some government officials, many close to President Mubarak, have boarded planes and left the country.
The government is trying to solidify its control on important buildings in Cairo, including broadcasting stations and ministries, by sending army tanks there. Tanks were also spotted heading towards the U.S. and British Embassies.
Earlier, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters that the U.S. is reconsidering its “assistance posture” to Cairo. In the meantime, Vodafone, which disconnected phone services and internet last night under government pressure, is feeling the heat as protesters are reportedly attacking its offices in Cairo and other cities.
——————-

UPDATE (3:45p EST): There is absolute chaos. Some are claiming the death toll in Suez is as high as almost a dozen, and over a hundred injured. The death toll in Cairo still stands at 1, but that number might rise as night falls....

Kathianne

01-28-2011, 05:28 PM

I don't have television, but it appears that Mubarak is speaking:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/egypt-whats-happening-now/

Kathianne

01-28-2011, 05:39 PM

I was able to catch the very end on al Jazeera live, seems he is saying that he'll stay, but new government tomorrow. So he's trying to blame the legislators, which probably is not going to washing.

Gaffer

01-28-2011, 06:03 PM

I don't have television, but it appears that Mubarak is speaking:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/egypt-whats-happening-now/

Thanks I'll keep monitoring that site.

red states rule

01-28-2011, 06:06 PM

Calm down guys - Obama will take care of this problem. He will hold a summit and talk to the leaders of both sides

Obama will deliver on his promise to bring peace to the Middle East just and he promised hope and change for the US

I am sure as the facts come out the riots are all the fault of Pres Bush, Sara Palin, the Tea Party, and the right wing hate machine

So sit back and let Obama and his foreign policy team take care of this.

revelarts

01-28-2011, 06:42 PM

...They will establish a democracy and then the brotherhood and other groups will get themselves voted in and take over, making it a theocratic government like iran, turkey and lebanon. It will all become part of the iranian caliphate in the next 20 years.

the brotherhoods influence is going to be there no mater who's in power after this probably. But If the the younger secularist Egyptians can get there stuff together they may be able to hold out for some continuing reforms.
From the reports I've seen the people have been incredibly surgical in there protest. ANd the military has been very restrained , so far, and even freindly with the people. I'd like to hope that if something happens here that the military here will decide NOT to attack the U.S. people.

But I doubt you'll see a Iran/Egypt Califh.
the Iranians are Shia and Egypt is primarily Sunni so there's not going to be much mingling love there.

revelarts

01-28-2011, 06:47 PM

Mubariks speech sounded like half for the candidates for president here in the U.S.

More Jobs..
We care about the poor...
Economic Change isa Coming for us all...
We will restore our regular rights...
I've worked hard for this country for many Years...
The other guy caused the problem will kick um out...
be patient and give me your support...
We are strong...
God bless our country...

red states rule

01-28-2011, 06:49 PM

revelarts

01-28-2011, 06:54 PM

Well when he loses his job over here he can get a show on MSNBC or NPR

or Fox?

red states rule

01-28-2011, 06:55 PM

or Fox?

Not likely

Dictators are loved and admired by liberals - usually conservatives want them taken out

revelarts

01-28-2011, 06:57 PM

Not likely

Dictators are loved and admired by liberals - usually conservatives want them taken out

You mean like the Saudis?

red states rule

01-28-2011, 07:03 PM

revelarts

01-28-2011, 07:20 PM

You mean like the Saudis?

I do not see Conservatives talking fondly of them. And as long as Dems keep Oil companies from doing their job - drilling for oil - we have to do business with them

I would like nothing better then to never have to buy another drop of their oil and see the unemployed here work on oil rigs, work at oil refineries, and build now oil pumps that will lower the cost at the pump
...

Pappy and GW both spoke well of "our good friends the Saudis."
When's the last time you heard Bush say anything negative about Egypt, he was sending people to Egypt for renditions and for torture and disappearance.

In the words of former CIA agent Robert Baer: "If you want a serious interrogation, you send a prisoner to Jordan. If you want them to be tortured, you send them to Syria. If you want someone to disappear -- never to see them again -- you send them to Egypt."
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/fact-sheet-extraordinary-rendition
Conservatives talk a hardline about dictators in the abstract but are just as cozy if not moreso than libs with dictators of all stripes over the years. The only ones that are harassed are the ones that won't play ball. (like Norega, and our former ally Saddam)

Money trumps for both libs and cons.

Don't betray the facts for the sake of party DMP.

red states rule

01-28-2011, 07:27 PM

Pappy and GW both spoke well of "our good friends the Saudis."
When's the last time you heard Bush say anything negative about Egypt, he was sending people to Egypt for renditions and for torture and disappearance.

Conservatives talk a hardline about dictators in the abstract but are just as cozy if not moreso than libs with dictators of all stripes over the years. The only ones that are harassed are the ones that won't play ball. (like Norega, and our former ally Saddam)

Money trumps for both libs and cons.

Don't betray the facts for the sake of party DMP.

Many on the right have called Egypt and China on how they treat their people

As I said, if common sense would prevail the oil money would stop flowing and stop financing their fovernment

But libs are not interested in energy independence - they are more concerned with "green" energy which is more expensive and far far away from reality

Kathianne

01-28-2011, 09:46 PM

Kathianne

01-29-2011, 09:09 AM

Unsurprisingly the protesters are not satisfied with the change in Cabinet. It appears some in the military are joining with the people:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110129/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_protest

Massive demonstration swells in downtown Cairo
By MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Maggie Michael, Associated Press 17 mins ago

CAIRO – A massive crowd of tens of thousands calling for the ouster of President Hosni Mubarak was gathering in the streets and squares of downtown Cairo Saturday afternoon, with protesters making clear they reject promises of reform and a new government offered by the embattled leader trying to hang on to power.

Dozens of tanks and armored personnel carriers fanned out across the city of 18 million, guarding key government building a day after large, violent confrontations emboldened the movement demanding a change of leadership. There was rampant looting across the sprawling city of 18 million and a growing feeling of fear and insecurity.

In the city's main Tahrir Square, at the center of Saturday's massive demonstration, there was only a light military presence — a few tanks — and soldiers are not intervening. Few police were seen in the crowds and the protest began peacefully but then police opened fire on some people in the crowd near the Interior Ministry and a number of them were wounded by gunshots. It was not clear whether they used rubber bullets or live ammunition.

One army captain joined the demonstrators, who hoisted him on their shoulders while chanting slogans against Mubarak. The officer ripped a picture of the president.

"We don't want him! We will go after him!" demonstrators shouted. They decried looting and sabotage, saying: "Those who love Egypt should not sabotage Egypt!"

The death toll since the largest anti-government protests in decades began Tuesday rose to 45, according to medical and security officials, 38 of them killed since Friday. Some 2,000 injuries have been reported...

GUBMINT Cheese

01-29-2011, 10:25 AM

If it reduces the Arab/Muslim population, I'm all for it......;)

Gaffer

01-29-2011, 10:58 AM

This is going to be bad for the US regardless of party here in power. Jordan is now having problems and that's just today's addition to other Arab states over the past few days.

The truth of the matter is that Obama has done nothing different than Bush regarding Egypt, who did nothing different than Clinton, who did nothing different than Bush I. Once Sadat agreed to not be aggressive towards Israel, the US supported the leadership there. For right or wrong, that's the way it's been.

Destabilization of Mid East and Arab African nations is not going to be in US interests or anyone's. Big winner here is Iran. Those saying differently just do not understand what's going on there and it has 0 to do with Shia or Sunni. Those differences might be problems down the road, but not in near future.

I'm waiting for the trouble to move into saud territory. If the pals could ever get it together and realize they have been used big time things could really heat up.

iran is the big winner. All they have to do is play their cards right with the sunni's. The brotherhood has already said it's fine to work with shite's. It will take a long time to form the caliphate, but that's the ultimate goal.

KarlMarx

01-29-2011, 11:10 AM

A hamstrung military
An ally in the Middle East becoming a Muslim theocracy
Economy in the crapper
An administration that doesn't know what to do about the situation in the Middle East and will likely support the Muslim revolutionaries who take over there.

Jimmy Carter is back and black.

I feel I should dust off my platform shoes, bell bottoms, and polyester shirts and go to the nearest disco while Rome burns

Kathianne

01-29-2011, 11:12 AM

I'm waiting for the trouble to move into saud territory. If the pals could ever get it together and realize they have been used big time things could really heat up.

iran is the big winner. All they have to do is play their cards right with the sunni's. The brotherhood has already said it's fine to work with shite's. It will take a long time to form the caliphate, but that's the ultimate goal.

I'd be surprised in Saudi Arabia, but then again I would have thought that this in Egypt would've taken longer.

In any case, unlikely IMO that Mubarak will hang on, he's totally on the defensive now:

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/29/live-blog-291-egypt-protests

Live blog 29/1 - Egypt protests
Live blog 29/1 - Egypt protests
By Al Jazeera Staff in

* Middle East

on January 29th, 2011.

Smoke rises from the burnt headquarters of the ruling National Democratic party in central Cairo on January 29

Live blog 28/1 - Egypt's Protests Erupt (from yesterday)
Visit our special Anger in Egypt coverage page.

Watch Al Jazeera English broadcasting live from Cairo, Suez and Alexandria.

Read up on a timeline of the past four days of unprecedented protests.
View a gallery of photos from the past four days of protests.

Follow staff tweets on the protests from Egypt and Doha.

(All times are local in Egypt.)

6:04pm President Mubarak's two sons, Gamal and Aala, have reportedly arrived in London.

6:00pm Former aviation minister Ahmad Shafiq is appointed the new prime minister of Egypt and will be responsible for forming new government.

5:36pm Ayman Mohyeldin is reporting that protesters continue trying to break into the Egytian ministry of the interior, as evening prayers conclude in Cairo.

5:25pm Head of Egyptian intelligence, Omar Suleiman, is sworn in as vice president. With his military credentials, the powerbroker is known to have significant connections and credibility inside and outside the country.

5:09pm President Mubarak reportedly holding meetings to discuss current unrest and rising tensions.
...

Gaffer

01-29-2011, 11:50 AM

KarlMarx

01-29-2011, 12:03 PM

Looters have stormed the Egyptian Museum which houses irreplacable Egyptian antiquities, not the least, relics of Tutankhamen's tomb.

This may be small fish to fry except to an Egyptophile like me. If a Taliban style Islam hardliner government comes into power, will they decide, as the Taliban in Afghanistan did, that all of those Egyptian artifacts are idols, what then? Will they decide to destroy them as the Taliban in Afghanistan did to the Buddhist statues in 2002?

Kathianne

01-29-2011, 12:08 PM

Mr. P

01-29-2011, 12:38 PM

Watching Al Jazeera on the net..anyone else?

Some damage at the museum,Karl. The Mil has control of it now.

Kathianne

01-29-2011, 02:26 PM

Seriously I hope that Abso and his family are alright.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/29/live-blog-291-egypt-protests

(All times are local in Egypt.)

8:49pm Shadi Hamid tells Al Jazeera English that the protest movement is still leader-less but says that Mohamed ElBaradei is likely prepared to assume leadership of populist demonstrations.

8:16pm Ayman Mohyeldin reports how the new Mubarak appointees Shafiq and Suleiman have strong military credentials - suggesting slight departure from the previous economic-oriented cabinet to one that is more security-oriented.

7:42pm Key opposition figure Mohamed ElBaradei says in speech: "We are seeking a change of regime. President Mubarak should step down. We should head towards a democratic state through a new government and free democratic elections...The whole world should realize that the Egyptians are not going home until their demands are realized...We are talking about taking down the Pharaonic dictatorship."

7:38pm Ayman Mohyeldin reports that eyewitnesses have said "party thugs" associated with the Egyptian regime's Central Security Services - in plainclothes but bearing government-issued weapons - have been looting in Cairo. Ayman says the reports started off as isolated accounts but are now growing in number.

7:31pm The Egyptian military is now reportedly driving through suburbs trying to protect affluent homes from looters.

7:18pm Nick Spicer reports from Washington DC that protesters in front of the Egyptian embassy are calling for Mubarak to resign and an end to US support for the Mubark government.

7:14pm The Egyptian army urges protesters to abide by nighttime curfew and a spokesman says, "The Egyptian military is always obliged to protect Egypt and its people".

6:59pm Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros, reporting from Suez, says that the army has made a push to enforce the curfew there by clearing the center of the city. Protesters got angry with the soldiers, who scuffled with demonstrators while trying to keep the area secure without frustrating the people. Sherine observes people amicably drinking coffee with soldiers.

6:50pm As protesters continue to defy curfew, a bystander in Cairo tells Al Jazeera that there are no police left in the capital. Formerly omnipresent traffic police are nowhere to be found. Reports suggest that private property is being seized in locations throughout Egypt.

6:43pm Some of the rarest antiquities in the world are found damaged by looters at famed Cairo musuem.

Gaffer

01-29-2011, 04:13 PM

Seriously I hope that Abso and his family are alright.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/29/live-blog-291-egypt-protests

That's what I'm wondering. I got the impression his family was government affiliated. If Mubarak goes down will there be repercussions against those that followed him?

Kathianne

01-29-2011, 04:24 PM

That's what I'm wondering. I got the impression his family was government affiliated. If Mubarak goes down will there be repercussions against those that followed him?

I don't know where he's located, but according to al Jazeera, there are gangs running around Cairo, Alexandria, and Suez, along with others. Tending towards wealthier suburbs. The police have melted away, reports are they may be among the looters, in civilian clothes. Looting, not protecting.

The military is saying that young people must protect their family property, reports of machetes, knives, and clubs being used. Clashes are becoming more frequent between the gangs and those patrolling areas. Sounds very difficult.

People are getting angry that military isn't doing more about property, their response is that they are stretched thin, protecting museums and government buildings.

NightTrain

01-29-2011, 05:31 PM

Abso may be in America sooner than he ever imagined in his wildest dreams.

Gaffer

01-29-2011, 07:33 PM

Just read on another board that hama's is crossing the border and moving people into Egypt as well. The border guards seem to have been pulled out. It's all deteriorating real fast.

jafar00

01-29-2011, 10:16 PM

I have friends over there. My wife is Egyptian also.

The situation on the ground there is dire.

The ones doing the looting are the POLICE! They have been moving house to house shooting people, raping women and looting shops. This is not a conspiracy. They have been caught red handed carrying their police IDs and police issued weapons.

The people have to form neighbourhood militias to protect themselves from the police revenge squads. Also prisoners have been freed by Mubarak's regime, armed and told to run amok.

My wife's family are all in such a militia. They are safer than many though as they are also inside an army cordon. The Army is protecting the people as much as they can without actually opening fire.

Hundreds, possibly thousands are dead. The official death toll is BS according to my dear friend (who's name I will not say to protect him) who is in Agouza district near Mohandessin. He and his friends and neighbours are doing their best to defend themselves with sticks and knives.

Cairo is in a state of anarchy. This could all have been avoided if only Mubarak had stepped down days ago.

red states rule

01-30-2011, 05:37 AM

As things get worse, the liberal media starts pointing out who they can try and blame

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Kathianne

01-30-2011, 08:30 AM

Just read on another board that hama's is crossing the border and moving people into Egypt as well. The border guards seem to have been pulled out. It's all deteriorating real fast.

I heard that on al Jazeera last evening. This though seems more coordinated and dangerous:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110130/wl_mideast_afp/egyptpoliticsunrestpalestiniansgazahamas

Hamas inmates flee Egypt jail, return to Gaza
1 hr 10 mins ago

GAZA CITY, Palestinian Territories (AFP) – Two out of eight Hamas prisoners who broke out of a Cairo prison as a wave of anti-government protests swept Egypt arrived back in Gaza on Sunday, an official source said.

A senior official in the Hamas government confirmed all eight were on their way back to Gaza, with the report also confirmed by one of the escapees.

By Sunday morning, at least two of the prisoners who had been held in Abu Zaabal prison, northeast of Cairo, had made it back to Gaza, entering the strip through the tunnels which run under the border, a Palestinian official said on condition of anonymity.

They made their escape when thousands broke free from jails across Egypt as officials struggled to control the wave of chaos sparked by nationwide riots demanding the end of the regime of President Hosni Mubarak.

Among those who arrived back in Gaza on Sunday was Mohamed al-Shaer, a big name in the cross-border smuggling enterprise, who was arrested in Egypt six months ago after completing the haj pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia.

Shaer entered Gaza through the tunnels, witnesses said...

Kathianne

01-30-2011, 08:46 AM

Speaking of media analysis, I prefer something that looks beyond US politics to some degree. This problem certainly didn't begin with Obama and the repercussions for the folly will be around much longer than he will, whatever the US decides:

http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2011/01/29/the-kings-speech/

The left-wing Israeli newspaper Haaretz says that Egyptian army officers in Cairo’s central square have tossed aside their helmets and joined the crowd. “The Army and the people are one,” they chanted. MSNBC’s photoblog shows protesters jubilantly perched on M1A1 tanks. The real significance of these defections is that the army officers would not have done so had they not sensed which way the winds were blowing — in the Egyptian officer corps.

And even as Mubarak tottered, the Saudi king threw his unequivocal backing behind the aging dictator — not hedging like Obama — but the Iranians continued to back the Egyptian protesters. The Saudi exchange tumbled 6.44% on news of unrest from Cairo. Meanwhile, the Voice of America reports that Israel is “extremely concerned” that events in Egypt could mean the end of the peace treaty between the two countries. If Mubarak isn’t finished already, a lot of regional actors are calculating like he might be.

But Washington will not be hurried. The San Francisco Chronicle reports that President Obama will review his Middle Eastern policy after the unrest in Egypt subsides. The future, in whose spaces the administration believed its glories to lie, plans to review its past failures in the same expansive place. Yet time and oil wait for no one. Crude oil prices surged as the markets took the rapid developments in. U.S. Energy Secretary Steven Chu observed that any disruption to Middle East oil supplies “could actually bring real harm.”

“If this can happen in Egypt, there is no reason that it can’t occur in Libya or Saudi Arabia,” said John Kilduff, a partner at Again Capital LLC, a New York-based hedge fund that focuses on energy.

Unrest within, and therefore the loss of Saudi Arabia to the West, is now a thinkable proposition.

Indeed, events in Egypt are likely to prove as damaging to Riyadh as to Washington. Teheran will have won a great diplomatic victory over the kingdom if Mubarak is thrown out on his ear. Iran backed the demonstrators; the Saudi king backed Mubarak. This follows on the heels of the Saudi defeat in Lebanon. Washington had been counting on Saudi Arabia to hold off the Hezbollah, and the kingdom lost. With the Hezbollah in power, the flag of Iran may soon symbolically fly over Beirut and Cairo.

Worse, the Sunni coalition which Washington counted on to contain Iran is now a broken reed. The horse President Obama hoped to ride to the battle is now broken down and being hauled to the glue factory. With a Shi’ite dominated government in Iraq, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and a Muslim Brotherhood that may keep Egypt in neutral or tacitly accept Teheran’s leadership, how could things possibly get worse?

...

There are lots of links to world-wide sources at site.

While Belmont Club is a general 'right' blog, in this case the writer is actually analyzing what is happening and what it might mean. Note the irrelevance at this point between Sunni and Shia? As I wrote before, this may play a role in the long-term, but not short.

Kathianne

01-30-2011, 09:17 AM

While there are reports of some being able to access internet through dial up and Blackberries, it seems that al Jazeera in Egypt is being taken offline:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/30/al-jazeera-in-cairo-being_n_815912.html

Egyptian state TV reported Sunday morning that the Al Jazeera office in Cairo is being shut down and Al Jazeera reporters are losing their press credentials in Egypt.

Al Jazeera correspondent Dan Nolan tweeted the news at about 11 a.m. local time, adding that Al Jazeera's licenses were revoked, per state media.

Nolan quickly added, "Don't worry we'll still report what's happening in #Egypt no matter what new restrictions they put on us."

Another Al Jazeera employee Evan Hill put the news this way: "State TV announces Al Jazeera's broadcasting license and press cards are being revoked. Our bureau is packing up."

Al Jazeera released a statement on Sunday that it "strongly denounces and condemns the closure of its bureau in Cairo by the Egyptian government." The network says it received notification from authorities on Sunday morning that information minister [Anas al-Fikki] had ordered the suspension of Al Jazeera. It also vowed to "continue its strong coverage regardless."

Gaffer

01-30-2011, 10:01 AM

Kathianne

01-30-2011, 11:04 AM

Good articles Kath. sounds like the government is about to fall soon and mubarak will be off to saudi land soon. All exiles go to saudiland. I'm not seeing a democracy coming out of all this. Like you said it will all take time but I think there's an iranian caliphate in the making here. The domino effect is in full swing.

It's looking more and more like Iran in the 70's, but much faster. It will not take years for the fall of Mubarak.

boycottr

01-30-2011, 02:08 PM

Carter during the Iranian Revolution, Obama during Egypt's. Another crossover.

Greg,

I didn't recognize myself in your distorted, unfounded and inaccurate description.Liberal originally meant open-minded. Fox News and others have recast that to mean "big spenders", anti-business and pro-welfare. That's a narrow-minded view of a group that is actually very diverse with some ideas on business that are more "conservative" than those called neocons. Labelling is not an example of critical thinking skills or fairness. I sure as hell don't need your "love." People are individuals.

Kathianne

01-30-2011, 02:23 PM

Greg,

I didn't recognize myself in your distorted, unfounded and inaccurate description.Liberal originally meant open-minded. Fox News and others have recast that to mean "big spenders", anti-business and pro-welfare. That's a narrow-minded view of a group that is actually very diverse with some ideas on business that are more "conservative" than those called neocons. Labelling is not an example of critical thinking skills or fairness. I sure as hell don't need your "love." People are individuals.

Greg? :uhoh:

Fail to see a response in your rant, but carry on. :laugh2:

revelarts

01-30-2011, 02:27 PM

It's looking more and more like Iran in the 70's, but much faster. It will not take years for the fall of Mubarak.

Except there is no Ayatollah(s), with swarms faithful of supporters. That's a huge difference. I don't think we should sweep Egypt into a Muslim radicals camp so quiclkly.
I know many of you here feel the radicals are coming over the hill everywhere (and that there are no moderate Muslims) but at this point they don't seem to be the driving force. Seems more economic and political.

To say that Iran's going to take over in a few years sounds a bit far fetched based on the current info.

the Muslim brotherhood is a problem but they are influencers not leaders and at this point they are playing on the sidelines trying to get in. I pray the Egyptians can be the 1st country in the middle east to create an indigenous democracy. Something we all say we want middle eastern countries to have.

Kathianne

01-30-2011, 02:32 PM

Except there is no Ayatollahs. That's a huge difference. I don't think we should sweep Egypt into a Muslim radicals camp so quiclkly.
I know many of you here feel the radicals are coming over the hill everywhere but at this point they don't seem to be the driving force. Seems more economic and political.

To say that Iran's going to take over in a few years sounds a bit far fetched based on the current info.

the Muslim brotherhood is a problem but they are influencers not leaders and at this point they are playing on the sidelines trying to get in. I pray the Egyptians can be the 1st country in the middle east to have create indigenous democracy. Something we all say we want middle eastern countries to have.

Not that you aren't a great analyst, however I think I'll stick with more learned sources on this story:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2011/01/iran_the_muslim_brotherhood_an.php

Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, and revolution
By Thomas JoscelynJanuary 28, 2011 11:07 PM

"I herewith proclaim to those (Western leaders) who still do not want to see the realities that the political axis of the new Middle East will soon be Islamic rulership and a democracy based on religion," senior Iranian cleric Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami said on Friday during public prayers in Tehran.

"All these protests in Egypt, Tunisia, Jordan and Yemen are inspired by Iran's Islamic revolution and these countries are de facto rocked by the aftershock of the Iranian revolution," Khatami claimed, according to Haaretz.

At first blush, Khatami's words may seem like mere hyperbole -- using the unrest throughout the greater Middle East to pat his regime's collective back for their own revolution, which has little to do with today's events. But it would be wrong to dismiss Khatami's rhetoric entirely. A brief history, with an eye on Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood in particular, is in order.

Iran's revolution has continually served as a model for both Sunni and Shiite Islamist organizations seeking power. In 1979, the Egyptian public was captivated by what was happening inside Iran. As Islamist fervor gripped the nation, pictures of Ayatollah Khomeini were prominently displayed. The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood openly sided with Khomeini's revolutionaries as they overthrew the Shah. So did two groups that split off from the Brotherhood only to become core components of al Qaeda: Sheikh Omar Abd al-Rahman's Gama'at Islamiyya (the Islamic Group, or IG) and Ayman al Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ). (I will return to Zawahiri and the EIJ below.)

Indeed, ties between the Brotherhood and Iran predate 1979. Hassan al Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, believed that Sunnis and Shiites should overcome their differences to face their common enemies. So, too, did Ayatollah Khomeini, who openly advocated an alliance between the two main branches of Islam. Al Banna and Khomeini were also linked by a prominent Iranian scholar named Nawab Safawi. Khomeini was close to Safawi and al Banna also embraced the Iranian cleric. As others have written, Safawi introduced Khomeini to the Brotherhood and its political ideology...

Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2011/01/iran_the_muslim_brotherhood_an.php#ixzz1CY5Vjpak

Kathianne

01-30-2011, 02:35 PM

Al Jazeera is back up:

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/01/29/live-blog-301-egypt-protests

(All times are local in Egypt.)

9:22pm Egypt's army is to extend the nationwide curfew from 3pm to 8am starting on Monday, says Egyptian state TV.

9:08pm Reports say that funerals for victims of recent violence have turned into protests in coastal Alexandria, where several police stations have already been torched and demonstrators continue to defy nationwide curfew.

8:53pm The Muslim Brotherhood continues to call for all opposition groups to unite and has said that they'll support Mohamed ElBaradei as the lead opposition negotiator. The Brotherhood has also said that Hosni Mubarak is responsible for the current Egyptian political mess.
...

revelarts

01-30-2011, 03:59 PM

McCain has made I statement on C-Sapn that pretty much sums up my thoughts .
Don't know if its available. but Egypt could be a good model.
Some might not like this analogy but. I know some blacks that admire Malcom X but it doesn't mean they are Muslims or want to shoot white people. Iran's revolution, I'm sure, is an inspiration to many for several different reasons. And some from the Muslim brotherhood have met with people from the KKK and David Duke. The KKK wants to "work with" them get pass their differences as well. How deep that goes in Eygpt or here i don't know.
I'm not trying completely discount the reports of radical unity however i don't think we can honestly say that they're are firm and powerful working alliances and the brotherhood is the heart, voice or head of most of the people.

This can be a turning point for the good or bad. I hope it's for more good.

NightTrain

01-30-2011, 05:37 PM

Gaffer

01-30-2011, 06:08 PM

WTF was that? A failed copy/paste?

That's what I was wondering too.

Kathianne

01-31-2011, 10:13 AM

And a bit on Mohammed El Baradei:

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/01/30/mohammed-el-baradei-the-iranian-frontman/

Mohammed El Baradei – The Iranian Frontman

Mohammed El Baradei — self-annointed “leader of the Egyptian opposition” — has more in common with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad than anything remotely resembling democracy. He had a 12-year run, ending in 2009, as head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) where his primary legacy was to bring Iran to the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons. He ran defense for Iran all those years, doing everything in his power to delay and delay and divert attention from the Iranian nuclear weapons program. Here is an example of El Baradei’s UN handiwork, after one more occasion when he helped push the issue off the Security Council table:
“I am encouraged that the issue has not been referred to the Security Council, precisely to give time for diplomacy and negotiation.”… “…time is still available for diplomacy to resolve outstanding issues, for Iran to build confidence, and that the question of reporting to the Security Council could only be discussed at a later date.” (Sept. 24, 2005)

The following story appeared last September, claiming that El Baradei is financially backed by Iran. There is speculation that he was on the take from the Iranian regime before he stepped down as IAEA Director-General, as well as after.

September 6, 2010

The Egyptian Newspaper Al Youm Al Sabeh reports: In a communication to the Attorney General of Egypt, Dr. Yasser Najib Abdel Mabboud, has accused Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei, former Director General of International Atomic Energy Agency and a candidate in the Egyptian presidential elections, of receiving funds exceeding $7 million (US) from Iran’s leadership as support for ‘political reform in Egypt’.

Abdul Mabboud , a candidate of the National Party and who like El Baradei is also running for the Egyptian Presidential election, was informed of the Iranian leadership’s willingness to support ElBaradei financially via an Arab businessman living in Europe. The check in the amount of $ 7 million is said to be meant to cover the financial costs of the election campaign and the activities of the Front for Change.

There is more at the link.

NightTrain

01-31-2011, 01:28 PM

And a bit on Mohammed El Baradei:

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/01/30/mohammed-el-baradei-the-iranian-frontman/

I don't remember the specifics about El Baradei, but I do remember thinking he was an inept buffoon when he was in the IAEA.

It wouldn't surprise me that he's on the take, however I'd have to question the Egyptian Newspaper Al Youm Al Sabeh - isn't Egyptian news run by the State?

Just judging by some of Abso's views as to historical accuracy and current events I would say that it is and therefore would be as trustworthy as North Korea's news outlets.

Kathianne

01-31-2011, 03:20 PM

I don't remember the specifics about El Baradei, but I do remember thinking he was an inept buffoon when he was in the IAEA.

It wouldn't surprise me that he's on the take, however I'd have to question the Egyptian Newspaper Al Youm Al Sabeh - isn't Egyptian news run by the State?

Just judging by some of Abso's views as to historical accuracy and current events I would say that it is and therefore would be as trustworthy as North Korea's news outlets.

Fair enough, here's lots of things, in his own reports:

http://irannuclearwatch.blogspot.com/2006/08/iran-nuclear-timeline.html

abso

02-02-2011, 04:53 AM

True, but I don't think that's it. The privileged classes in less than free countries need to believe that the government is good and the media fair. Like I said, I think Abso believes and was raised and educated to believe that the country is good, just, etc.

The people he knows are probably much like him, he's not exposed to those others anymore than I am those living in squalor in Chicago.

when i say that i am not from the lower 73% doesnt mean that i am rich, most of the country is poor as you may now, so being from the top 27% doesnt mean i am rich at all ;)

abso

02-02-2011, 04:53 AM

THE INTERNET IS BACK AT LAAAAAAAAAAAAAST :coffee:

abso

02-02-2011, 04:55 AM

I don't remember the specifics about El Baradei, but I do remember thinking he was an inept buffoon when he was in the IAEA.

It wouldn't surprise me that he's on the take, however I'd have to question the Egyptian Newspaper Al Youm Al Sabeh - isn't Egyptian news run by the State?

Just judging by some of Abso's views as to historical accuracy and current events I would say that it is and therefore would be as trustworthy as North Korea's news outlets.

not all egyptian news are run by the state, just 3 newspapers are state owned, the rest are private free news, Al Youm Al Sabeh are privately owned.

abso

02-02-2011, 04:58 AM

And a bit on Mohammed El Baradei:

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/01/30/mohammed-el-baradei-the-iranian-frontman/

Mohammed El Baradei may be a honest man, but i dont like him, i think that he is using the riots and the youth to win the presidency easily while he never did anything for the egyptians and none of his family is living in egypt, he cant live in Europe for 30 years then come and ask us to make him our president, i prefer to choose someone who lived among us and really knows our problems.

abso

02-02-2011, 05:06 AM

the demonstrations werent islamic, but the islamic brotherhood used them too, all parties are trying now to use those demonstrations to empower themselfs, while we "the youth" never wanted to empower anyone but ourselfs, we wished to deliver our demands and problems, all the opposition parties are just like the government, people who like power and wish for it, every politician in the country now is trying to find some personal gain in what happened, i despise the islamic brotherhood and the opposition parties.

abso

02-02-2011, 05:08 AM

True, that's why I said I think he lives in a bubble.

i never said that the government is good, or that the media is fair, i have always told you people that the media is always biased to something, its very rare to find honest media.

abso

02-02-2011, 05:16 AM

He's called out the army so he's going down. There will be no compromise now. It's really a matter of who's going to take power when the smoke clears.

Me thinks abso's bubble has burst. If his family is tied to the regime he's in deep dodo.

none in my family likes the regime, you people have fantastic ability to invent the facts and believe them :laugh:

although most of my family are army, police, intelligence officers, but none of them at all likes the regime, i was visiting my uncle last thursday, he was Brigadier General in the air force, he hates the regime so much, although he is one of the rich "that's the one whose son went to thailand ;)".

being rich or poor doesnt have anything to do with hating or loving the regmie, many rich people in egypt hate it.

abso

02-02-2011, 05:18 AM

I'm not expecting anything good to come from this uprising. ElBaradei will get into power and be subject to the brotherhood. They will establish a democracy and then the brotherhood and other groups will get themselves voted in and take over, making it a theocratic government like iran, turkey and lebanon. It will all become part of the iranian caliphate in the next 20 years.

lets hope that this prediction will never become reality :death:

i hate el baradei and i will never vote for him or the islamic brotherhood, but i am not sure that the poor people will do the same, they may all vote for anyone to change the regime that they think are responsible for making them poor.

abso

02-02-2011, 05:29 AM

This is going to be bad for the US regardless of party here in power. Jordan is now having problems and that's just today's addition to other Arab states over the past few days.

The truth of the matter is that Obama has done nothing different than Bush regarding Egypt, who did nothing different than Clinton, who did nothing different than Bush I. Once Sadat agreed to not be aggressive towards Israel, the US supported the leadership there. For right or wrong, that's the way it's been.

Destabilization of Mid East and Arab African nations is not going to be in US interests or anyone's. Big winner here is Iran. Those saying differently just do not understand what's going on there and it has 0 to do with Shia or Sunni. Those differences might be problems down the road, but not in near future.

as you say that what is happening here has nothing to do with shia or sunni, it has nothing to do at all with religion, its just the regular problems, no jobs, no money, the oppression of the police, and many other usual problems in poor areas, egypt may look modern, but it has alot of problems.

abso

02-02-2011, 05:35 AM

I asked abso about the riots going on in his country. He brushed it off as nothing. The media wasn't even paying it much attention. Now the country is in turmoil, the media is covering it 24/7, abso can't get online.

The lesson here, don't brush me off. :thumb:

i didnt brush you off at all, all i said that i had few minutes before i go out to visit my unlce as you remember, so i replied few simple replies, i intended to explain the full situation when i get back, i got back at 12:15 AM, then i started typing a long reply, the internet was cut at 12:45 AM, and i couldnt post what i wrote ;).

i really got very angry, i had just finished my exams and they cut the internet service in the same day :lame2:

KarlMarx

02-02-2011, 07:02 AM

revelarts

02-02-2011, 08:01 AM

Abso!
Welcome Back man.
Glad to hear things are ok with you.
Praying things work out there.

OldMercsRule

02-02-2011, 10:20 AM

Hey ABSO, my friend,

I hope you and yer family stay safe and this werks out fer yer Country.

The whole world is watching.

Good Luck!!!!! JR

abso

02-02-2011, 11:16 AM

Just the same, Abso, welcome back. Although we don't agree on much of anything, I'm very happy to see that you're safe. I hope the same is true for your family.

I'm embarrassed to ask this, since there are so many other issues that are more important.

As is well known to other board members, I am fascinated with the study of Ancient Egypt (I have been since I was 11). So, I'd like to ask you, what about the looters at the Egyptian Museum? What was the extent of the damage? I understand two mummies were damaged as well as two statues of the Pharaoh Tutankhamen. Zahi Hawass, the Antiquities director, denounced the looters as criminals. That's as much as I know... do you know more?

thanks for your concern, i am safe and my family are also safe, although i and my friends have to stay every night in the streets till 6 AM to protect our neighbourhood from the gangsters who are taking advantage of the riots to steal, the army also joined us with three tanks to protect the streets here and yesterday the police finally returned and joined us too.

about the museum, nothing was stolen, just some damaged things and they will be restored to their original condition soon, the museum now is under the protection of the special forces.

when some gangesters tried to steal from it, the people protected it until the special forces arrived and took control of the museum, and now none can ever enter it again.

also 422 Artifacts were stolen from another place which i dont remember where it is, but they were returned by the army who captured the thiefs.

now all the Archaeological sites all over egypt are under protection of the army.

abso

02-02-2011, 11:17 AM

Abso!
Welcome Back man.
Glad to hear things are ok with you.
Praying things work out there.

thanks, hope that you are ok too :salute:

abso

02-02-2011, 11:21 AM

Hey ABSO, my friend,

I hope you and yer family stay safe and this werks out fer yer Country.

The whole world is watching.

Good Luck!!!!! JR

thanks, hope the same for you and me.

Mr. P

02-02-2011, 11:27 AM

Good to hear you are OK, KID!

What do you think the chances are that the new Gov will be of Islam, like Iran, or a radical group? What are the people saying, what do they want besides change?

NightTrain

02-02-2011, 11:46 AM

Glad to hear you're okay, Abso.

What happened that internet services were turned back on for the general populace? Or did you simply get a satellite ISP?

abso

02-02-2011, 12:28 PM

Glad to hear you're okay, Abso.

What happened that internet services were turned back on for the general populace? Or did you simply get a satellite ISP?

thanks, they are back in general for everyone.

Kathianne

02-02-2011, 12:54 PM

Glad Abso is safe, we were worried about you whether we a agree or not on issues. I do hope there is a good outcome, I just don't see how there will be. I hope m analysis is wrong.

abso

02-02-2011, 12:57 PM

Good to hear you are OK, KID!

What do you think the chances are that the new Gov will be of Islam, like Iran, or a radical group? What are the people saying, what do they want besides change?

for now i think its not a big chance, maybe 10-20%, because the majority of the egyptians along with me doesnt perfer to live under strict islamic law, we prefer to live in a moderate islamic country not a strict one, many doesnt believe the propaganda of the islamic brotherhood, i like some of their thoughts but not all of it, they have strict rules which will make life harder for everyone, i dont think that the egyptians will empower them.

but maybe as the time passes the chance of the islamic brotherhood taking power will rise, i cant say for sure, but what i believe is that Egypt will never turn to be another Iran, and we will never get along with Iran in their current policies, even in the religious aspect we have different ideas, we are sunni and they are shia, and as much as i hate it, but those two parties have major differences which appear between the religious people, but in general the normal people in the street doesnt feel any difference between sunni or shiaa like in Lebanon, but when you speak about strict shiaa like Iran or strict Sunni like Saudia, thats when you will notice a big difference which makes them very hard to get along, although they have alot of common things like being strict in their laws and with women and such things, but their views about the islamic history are very different, and that always cause problems between them.

back to egypt, the general population doesn't want any radical group in power, we dont like to head toward that direction, although i believe that the coming government may revise some of the international positions which angers the egyptians, but i don think that the peace treaty with israel will be cancelled, maybe by time we will demand some changes in it to allow us to move our troops freely in sinai, or maybe the people will ask the government to cancel the gas selling to israel at very low rates.

so nothing major will change about the foriegn affairs, but internally, there will be very big changes, the ex interior ministry will be sent to the military court soon for his actions during the riots, the new minister have instructed the police not to intervene with the demostrations at all, my area had a demonstration today, the police walked behind them just to watch and ensure that nothing violent will happen.

many internal policies will have to be changed, the egyptian People's Council have been suspended until the members whom the people disagreed with their election are removed, many members have been accused of forging the elections, so they suspended the whole concil until further notice, many demands of the people have been answered, but the people still want the president to relinquish power at once without any delay, which is a demand that i dont agree with, the president have announced that he wont run for the coming elections in september, which is enough for me, i dont know why those people want to burn the whole country just to remove him today, its just 7 months, he have been president for 28 years, whats wrong with leaving him for 7 more months, maybe he will try to do good things for the people to forgive him for his failurs.

i believe that the country needs a change, but i dont believe that Mubarak is a dictator, or that he is that bad, the country itself is messed up, its not just the fault of the president, its also the fault of the people themselfs, we all take part in what happened, and all the egyptians are at fault not just the president, he tried as much as he could, but the people will never be content, i know them because i am one of them, i dont deny that the government had its faults and mistakes, but to say that one person is the only one responsible for what the country has become is hypocritic, many ex prime ministers are also at fault and responsible for the problems that we know suffer from.

finally, the most thing that i blame Mubarak at, is that he didnt leave the power years ago, he shouldnt have stayed in power for 28 years, he is now held responsible for every problem that the country faced during those three decades, thats alot of time and alot of problems to be held responsible for, its a responsibility that none should bear to carry, but he choosed to do that, so he choosed the path that lead most of the country to hate him.

abso

02-02-2011, 12:59 PM

Glad Abso is safe, we were worried about you whether we a agree or not on issues. I do hope there is a good outcome, I just don't see how there will be. I hope m analysis is wrong.

thanks, i hope for a good outcome too while i also dont see how.

Kathianne

02-02-2011, 01:28 PM

thanks, i hope for a good outcome too while i also dont see how.

That makes me sad too.

texastom

02-02-2011, 01:51 PM

Hello Abso! I'm new here, but know some of the posters from another board and from another time.... So I hope you don't mind my jumping in to pose a question.

Do you have any issue with Mubarak wanting to take time to step down (assuming he follows through as promised)?

I was living in Korea when they had their last dictator and therefore witnessed their transition from despot to democracy. Therefore, I wonder what you and other Egyptian may think about this.

Do you not believe an orderly transition with true and open elections is better than a disorderly transition? At least with an orderly transition (9 months is not that long), that allows time to the formation of opposing parties and is more likely to insure that there is not a knee-jerk reaction that puts some new despote in power.

When Korea made their transition from despot to democracy, it was announced by their then dictator that he would step down a full 10 months before he did (he only finally agreed to step down in 1987 due to a popular uprising). That allowed for the peaceful and orderly transfer of power.

In my opinion, the Korean model should be followed in Egypt as just about every time there has been no orderly transition, the country going through the transition has ended up with autocratic regimes that are as bad if not worse than what came before them.

Is it possible for Egypt to make an orderly transition?

texastom

02-02-2011, 01:55 PM

BTW: I'm happy to know you and your family are safe and regardless of how the transition takes place, I pray for the best! What happens in Egypt will have an effect on the world.

Mr. P

02-02-2011, 02:10 PM

for now i think its not a big chance, maybe 10-20%, because the majority of the egyptians along with me doesnt perfer to live under strict islamic law, we prefer to live in a moderate islamic country not a strict one, many doesnt believe the propaganda of the islamic brotherhood, i like some of their thoughts but not all of it, they have strict rules which will make life harder for everyone, i dont think that the egyptians will empower them.

but maybe as the time passes the chance of the islamic brotherhood taking power will rise, i cant say for sure, but what i believe is that Egypt will never turn to be another Iran, and we will never get along with Iran in their current policies, even in the religious aspect we have different ideas, we are sunni and they are shia, and as much as i hate it, but those two parties have major differences which appear between the religious people, but in general the normal people in the street doesnt feel any difference between sunni or shiaa like in Lebanon, but when you speak about strict shiaa like Iran or strict Sunni like Saudia, thats when you will notice a big difference which makes them very hard to get along, although they have alot of common things like being strict in their laws and with women and such things, but their views about the islamic history are very different, and that always cause problems between them.

back to egypt, the general population doesn't want any radical group in power, we dont like to head toward that direction, although i believe that the coming government may revise some of the international positions which angers the egyptians, but i don think that the peace treaty with israel will be cancelled, maybe by time we will demand some changes in it to allow us to move our troops freely in sinai, or maybe the people will ask the government to cancel the gas selling to israel at very low rates.

so nothing major will change about the foriegn affairs, but internally, there will be very big changes, the ex interior ministry will be sent to the military court soon for his actions during the riots, the new minister have instructed the police not to intervene with the demostrations at all, my area had a demonstration today, the police walked behind them just to watch and ensure that nothing violent will happen.

many internal policies will have to be changed, the egyptian People's Council have been suspended until the members whom the people disagreed with their election are removed, many members have been accused of forging the elections, so they suspended the whole concil until further notice, many demands of the people have been answered, but the people still want the president to relinquish power at once without any delay, which is a demand that i dont agree with, the president have announced that he wont run for the coming elections in september, which is enough for me, i dont know why those people want to burn the whole country just to remove him today, its just 7 months, he have been president for 28 years, whats wrong with leaving him for 7 more months, maybe he will try to do good things for the people to forgive him for his failurs.

i believe that the country needs a change, but i dont believe that Mubarak is a dictator, or that he is that bad, the country itself is messed up, its not just the fault of the president, its also the fault of the people themselfs, we all take part in what happened, and all the egyptians are at fault not just the president, he tried as much as he could, but the people will never be content, i know them because i am one of them, i dont deny that the government had its faults and mistakes, but to say that one person is the only one responsible for what the country has become is hypocritic, many ex prime ministers are also at fault and responsible for the problems that we know suffer from.

finally, the most thing that i blame Mubarak at, is that he didnt leave the power years ago, he shouldnt have stayed in power for 28 years, he is now held responsible for every problem that the country faced during those three decades, thats alot of time and alot of problems to be held responsible for, its a responsibility that none should bear to carry, but he choosed to do that, so he choosed the path that lead most of the country to hate him.
My impression is that the protestors are not the poor but the educated, they seem pretty Westernised and would never accept rule by strict Islamic law. My fear is that they are a minority in the population. I think the majority are poor an uneducated. They would be much more likely to be fooled by strict Islamist or the brotherhood, don't you think?

I think it's a mistake to insist Mubarak leave immediately unless control falls to the military. He seems to care about the country and would be a plus for a smooth transition to a new free Government (I think). With the turmoil going on around Egypt in Jordan, Yemen etc., the less turmoil durning transition the better the outcome for Egypt the middle east and the world. IMO

Now I'm hearing the pro Mubarak supporters are being sent by the Ministry of the Interior. That would change my mind about leaving Mubarak in office until Sept. What a mess! Good luck, Abso.

Kathianne

02-02-2011, 03:15 PM

It's taken a violent turn today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt

Mubarak backers attack foes with firebombs, bricks
By HADEEL AL-SHALCHI and SARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press Hadeel Al-shalchi And Sarah El Deeb, Associated Press 1 min ago

CAIRO – Thousands of supporters and opponents of President Hosni Mubarak battled in Cairo's main square Wednesday, raining stones, bottles and firebombs on each other in scenes of uncontrolled violence as soldiers stood by without intervening. Government backers galloped in on horses and camels, only to be dragged to the ground and beaten bloody.

At one of the fighting's front lines, next to the famed Egyptian Museum at the edge of Tahrir Square, pro-government rioters blanketed the rooftops of nearby buildings and dumped bricks and firebombs onto the crowd below — in the process setting a tree ablaze inside the museum grounds. Plainclothes police at the building entrances prevented anti-Mubarak protesters from storming up to stop them.

The two sides pummeled each other with hurled chunks of concrete and bottles at each of the six entrances to the sprawling plaza, where the 10,000 anti-Mubarak protesters tried to fend off the more than 3,000 attackers who besieged the square. Some on the pro-government side waved machetes, while the square's defenders filled the air with a ringing battlefield din by banging metal fences with sticks.

The protesters accused Mubarak's regime of unleashing a force of paid thugs and plainclothes police to crush their unprecedented 9-day-old movement demanding his ouster, a day after the 82-year-old president refused to step down. They showed off police ID badges they said were wrested off their attackers...

texastom

02-02-2011, 03:30 PM

It's taken a violent turn today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egyptI hate to say this, but I think most of us saw this coming. Unfortunately, there are too many "forces" behind the scenes that are fomenting this "movement" and neither side, in my opinion, truly have the best interest of the masses at heart while the people, who truly do want the best for Egypt, are being used as pawns.

I've become very cynical in the last few years and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the events in the world are orchestrated moves with the ultimate goal being the subjugation of all under the forces of the world's banksters and elites.

Hold on, I think I hear a helicopter hovering over my house!

Gaffer

02-02-2011, 03:44 PM

I hate to say this, but I think most of us saw this coming. Unfortunately, there are too many "forces" behind the scenes that are fomenting this "movement" and neither side, in my opinion, truly have the best interest of the masses at heart while the people, who truly do want the best for Egypt, are being used as pawns.

I've become very cynical in the last few years and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the events in the world are orchestrated moves with the ultimate goal being the subjugation of all under the forces of the world's banksters and elites.

Hold on, I think I hear a helicopter hovering over my house!

Interesting because I have the come to the same conclusion and I see Glen Beck is actually doing a week long series on this as well. It's scary when I see the same things he does and I don't have resources that he does.

A caliphate and a new soviet union seem to be the goals of the elites of both ilks.

texastom

02-02-2011, 03:58 PM

Interesting because I have the come to the same conclusion and I see Glen Beck is actually doing a week long series on this as well. It's scary when I see the same things he does and I don't have resources that he does.

A caliphate and a new soviet union seem to be the goals of the elites of both ilks.I need to watch it then. I've watched a few of his shows over the years, but I stopped watching most MSM "news & information" programs a couple of years ago. Sure, I will tune to CNN or FOX now and again, but I don't watch them religiously like I once did.

I tend to get my news now from various blogs I read on a daily basis. Some agree with my assessment, some don't. But I believe any of us that are semi intelligent can see this without having to be told.

I agree that when guys like you and I can see this movement without the resources of somebody like Beck, then that's pretty scary. It's scary because, in my opinion, it means the movement is going "mainstream".

It's funny though... I say I don't have the resources Beck does, but I've been reading the NIA blog for years now and it's become, from what I understand, a site he now often references. Maybe we do have the resources, but we've been programmed to only watch the talking heads on the tube.

texastom

02-02-2011, 04:00 PM

To address your last point....

Islam has a built in function that must be very interesting to the banksters.... a "religious" banking system..... Imagine what the banksters could do in an alliance with a religion with such a system in place! Sure, they can't charge interest, but they can charge fees and the system can be used as a means of control.

revelarts

02-02-2011, 04:37 PM

....Unfortunately, there are too many "forces" behind the scenes that are fomenting this "movement" and ... [none] ...., in my opinion, truly have the best interest of the masses at heart while the people, who truly do want the best for Egypt, are being used as pawns.
.....

When I hear the protesters saying they "don't have a leader", my 1st thought is. Oh Crap. Then someone with money and power will provide one for you.

I'd like to hope that "the people" can maneuver this to their advantage but they've got to recognize the religious, political and corporate enemies and work real hard against professional sabotaged or end up with just a new coat of paint on an old camel of a puppet dictatorship.

I wonder about the level of political savvy the poor folks have, many times the poor see political and other power structures in a clearer light than the middle classes. If they can keep their heads they could be a monkey wrench in the world power structure. Much like Chavez, who , for all his Commie faults, didn't play ball and hasn't been killed yet. He paid off all of his IMF world bank debts and took ( stole back) items from foreign companies that had been dictating terms to the people. I get the feeling that he's getting a bit power mad and has possibly been starting to lean toward the int corps. and world powers though. but that's another story.

If the military are actually for the people and aren't bought off by outside powers It'll make it much more likely that Egypts new Gov't will be a real expression of the people.

And I wonder, these Mubarak supporters on camel and horse back, how many are the old corrupt marshal law police in plain clothes.

abso

02-03-2011, 02:37 AM

abso

02-03-2011, 02:38 AM

BTW: I'm happy to know you and your family are safe and regardless of how the transition takes place, I pray for the best! What happens in Egypt will have an effect on the world.

thanks.

abso

02-03-2011, 02:47 AM

My impression is that the protestors are not the poor but the educated, they seem pretty Westernised and would never accept rule by strict Islamic law. My fear is that they are a minority in the population. I think the majority are poor an uneducated. They would be much more likely to be fooled by strict Islamist or the brotherhood, don't you think?

I think it's a mistake to insist Mubarak leave immediately unless control falls to the military. He seems to care about the country and would be a plus for a smooth transition to a new free Government (I think). With the turmoil going on around Egypt in Jordan, Yemen etc., the less turmoil durning transition the better the outcome for Egypt the middle east and the world. IMO

Now I'm hearing the pro Mubarak supporters are being sent by the Ministry of the Interior. That would change my mind about leaving Mubarak in office until Sept. What a mess! Good luck, Abso.

i agree with you, i fear that the uneducated and poor always fooled by the propaganda of the islamic brotherhood, they have alot of money and alot of good promises, but i fear that they will have alot of negative points too, i am not all against an islamic country or caliphate as long as its moderate, but what i fear is that if we empower them, there is not way we can ensure that they will be moderate or strict, so i prefer not to take that chance, i prefer a free country that is islamic and also democratic, something between Turkey which is too secular and saudia which is too strict, thats the place which i want to live in, i hope that the poor will not be fooled by any party or any promises that may not be kept.

i also believe that leaving office at once will burn the country, for Mubarak to stay till now and not run like the Tunisian president, that makes him a partiot who really thinks about his country, he refused to let it fall into chaos, i believe that we must leave him in power for the next 7 months, then choose a new president in a free elections.

the news about the ministry of interior may be jus rumours, they may be just some gangsters hired by some people who want Mubarak to look bad, but for Mubarak to do that knowing that this will make the people anger more and more, that is not a wise move which i dont believe that Mubarak will make, of course my opinion may be wrong, but i think the better chance is that Mubarak would never take such action.

abso

02-03-2011, 02:49 AM

Little-Acorn

02-03-2011, 11:23 AM

The list of islamic groups involved in the rioting was extensive.

It's not the ones involved in the rioting you have to worry about. It's the ones waiting quietly on the sidelines for the rioting to die down, before they make their move.

Gaffer

02-03-2011, 12:01 PM

i agree with you, i fear that the uneducated and poor always fooled by the propaganda of the islamic brotherhood, they have alot of money and alot of good promises, but i fear that they will have alot of negative points too, i am not all against an islamic country or caliphate as long as its moderate, but what i fear is that if we empower them, there is not way we can ensure that they will be moderate or strict, so i prefer not to take that chance, i prefer a free country that is islamic and also democratic, something between Turkey which is too secular and saudia which is too strict, thats the place which i want to live in, i hope that the poor will not be fooled by any party or any promises that may not be kept.

i also believe that leaving office at once will burn the country, for Mubarak to stay till now and not run like the Tunisian president, that makes him a partiot who really thinks about his country, he refused to let it fall into chaos, i believe that we must leave him in power for the next 7 months, then choose a new president in a free elections.

the news about the ministry of interior may be jus rumours, they may be just some gangsters hired by some people who want Mubarak to look bad, but for Mubarak to do that knowing that this will make the people anger more and more, that is not a wise move which i dont believe that Mubarak will make, of course my opinion may be wrong, but i think the better chance is that Mubarak would never take such action.

The bolded part is the reason I don't trust in you. While you appear to be a nice guy and nonviolent, you still have that muslim belief that you can have a democracy and islam at the same time. That's like mixing water and oil. You can't have islam with a democracy, islam requires following sharia law. You might start out secular but it will never remain that way. Turkey is not part of the EU because they were never secular enough and are swinging back to a theocracy, allying themselves with iran. A caliphate in the middle east would basically create an EU type organization with one country and sect dominating everything.

Mubarak needs to go in a transition like you say. The ones that want him out right now want that vacuum so they can fill it with their own brand of government.

I read that the troops along the gaza border were withdrawn and hams was entering Egypt from there. Heard anything on that? Also the brotherhood is calling for Egyptians to prepare for war with Israel. Shows where their priorities lie.

abso

02-03-2011, 02:14 PM

The bolded part is the reason I don't trust in you. While you appear to be a nice guy and nonviolent, you still have that muslim belief that you can have a democracy and islam at the same time. That's like mixing water and oil. You can't have islam with a democracy, islam requires following sharia law. You might start out secular but it will never remain that way. Turkey is not part of the EU because they were never secular enough and are swinging back to a theocracy, allying themselves with iran. A caliphate in the middle east would basically create an EU type organization with one country and sect dominating everything.

Mubarak needs to go in a transition like you say. The ones that want him out right now want that vacuum so they can fill it with their own brand of government.

I read that the troops along the gaza border were withdrawn and hams was entering Egypt from there. Heard anything on that? Also the brotherhood is calling for Egyptians to prepare for war with Israel. Shows where their priorities lie.

its you opinion that Islam cant exist along a democracy, but i believe otherwise, i believe that if moderate Islam is applied in the right way, it will be democratic.

the important part in your post, is what you said about the people who are waiting to fill Mubarak's position, thats what i fear, i dont know what type of people will take the power after him, i hope that they wont be strict islamists.

about Hamas, i havent heared anything about that, but if they eneterd egypt, then they are more than welcome to be annihilated by the egyptian army.

about Israel, i hope the coming government will respect the peace treaty and doesnt cancel it, but the coming president must also modify that treaty.

texastom

02-03-2011, 02:23 PM

The bolded part is the reason I don't trust in you. While you appear to be a nice guy and nonviolent, you still have that muslim belief that you can have a democracy and islam at the same time. That's like mixing water and oil. You can't have islam with a democracy, islam requires following sharia law. You might start out secular but it will never remain that way. Turkey is not part of the EU because they were never secular enough and are swinging back to a theocracy, allying themselves with iran. A caliphate in the middle east would basically create an EU type organization with one country and sect dominating everything.

Mubarak needs to go in a transition like you say. The ones that want him out right now want that vacuum so they can fill it with their own brand of government.

I read that the troops along the gaza border were withdrawn and hams was entering Egypt from there. Heard anything on that? Also the brotherhood is calling for Egyptians to prepare for war with Israel. Shows where their priorities lie.
Sure, democracy and Islam can work together as long as everybody living there is Muslim. It wouldn't be a very good place to live it you weren't because, as the old saying goes, with true democracy, you get mob rule. That's why our forefathers did not form the US with a truly democratic government but instead, a constitutional republic.

texastom

02-03-2011, 02:25 PM

abso

02-03-2011, 05:40 PM

Abos, I'm curious about two points you made.

1. You said that Turkey is "too secular". What do you mean by that? What makes them "too secular"?

2. You stated that the treaty with Israel should not be forfeited, but should be amended (I paraphrase). How so? What changes would you/the majority of Egyptians, like to see?

Thank you in advance.

about the first point i didnt mean anything, you can consider it just secular or "too secular" doesnt make any difference, i was just making an example of a secular and strict islamic countries.

about the treaty, i can only speak about myself although i think many egyptians will agree with me, but what i would like to see, is removing any restraint from the treaty on the egyptian troops in sinai, its our land and we should be free to place our army wherever we want as long as its inside our borders.

texastom

02-03-2011, 05:56 PM

about the first point i didnt mean anything, you can consider it just secular or "too secular" doesnt make any difference, i was just making an example of a secular and strict islamic countries.

about the treaty, i can only speak about myself although i think many egyptians will agree with me, but what i would like to see, is removing any restraint from the treaty on the egyptian troops in sinai, its our land and we should be free to place our army wherever we want as long as its inside our borders.

Thanks for the reply.

I would think Turkey is a great model as it prevents the country from slowly slipping into strict Islamic rule.

Your point on the treaty makes perfect sense. Back in the 80's I served in the Sinai for six months while in the US Army as part of the UN contingent. I could understand the need for a period of time after the war there needing to be restrictions, but it makes sense now that enough time has gone by that it is no longer needed.

I would venture a guess that it's the west that wants to keep that part of the treaty in place as it's probably more about securing the Suez than it is about acting as a buffer between Israel and Egypt.

Gaffer

02-03-2011, 06:04 PM

about the first point i didnt mean anything, you can consider it just secular or "too secular" doesnt make any difference, i was just making an example of a secular and strict islamic countries.

about the treaty, i can only speak about myself although i think many egyptians will agree with me, but what i would like to see, is removing any restraint from the treaty on the egyptian troops in sinai, its our land and we should be free to place our army wherever we want as long as its inside our borders.

The sinai is the buffer between Egypt and Israel. There is no military reason for troops to be there. Egyptians can travel through there all they want. The fact the military can't build up in there just means Israel's southern border is relatively safe. It was part of the peace agreement. Israel could have kept control of the entire sinai, once again they gave up land for peace.

abso

02-04-2011, 02:43 AM

The sinai is the buffer between Egypt and Israel. There is no military reason for troops to be there. Egyptians can travel through there all they want. The fact the military can't build up in there just means Israel's southern border is relatively safe. It was part of the peace agreement. Israel could have kept control of the entire sinai, once again they gave up land for peace.

once again you speak about isreal like they had the right to invade in the first place.

if we have no troops in sinai then our borders arent safe, or do you only think about the safety of the israelian borders ?

revelarts

02-04-2011, 07:45 AM

Daily show on point.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/arabian-fights

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/mess-o-slightly-to-the-left-o-potamia---pro-mubarak-demonstrators

abso

02-04-2011, 08:12 AM

revelarts

02-04-2011, 08:16 AM

making fun of the riots ?, is that something i am supposed to like ?

Sorry Abso, I didn't intend it or take it as an offense to Egyptians but as a making fun of Mubarak the Mubarak "supporters" and some Americans attitudes toward the situation there.

my apologies.

abso

02-04-2011, 08:51 AM

Sorry Abso, I didn't intend it or take it as an offense to Egyptians but as a making fun of Mubarak the Mubarak "supporters" and some Americans attitudes toward the situation there.

my apologies.

apology accepted, but making fun of any side right now is not something that we should pay attention to, people are dying and sleeping in the streets, its not a good time to run a comedy show on the president or anyone else.

the president supporters doesnt want him to stay in power forever, just for the next 7 months, i dont like the president, he have failed in his job, but i also dont want to crucify him for every single mistake that happened in Egypt in the last three decades, i agree with him staying in power for the next 7 months, if we made him leave the power now, none can predict what will happen, maybe the Islamic Brotherhood will take the power, its not likely to happen but its a possibility, so i want Mubarak to stay in power for now to ensure that none will take the power till the coming elections in september.

fj1200

02-04-2011, 09:29 AM

... i dont like the president, he have failed in his job, but i also dont want to crucify him for every single mistake that happened in Egypt in the last three decades...

What would success be for Egypt? And if he's not to blame for the last 3 decades then who/what is?

namvet

02-04-2011, 10:57 AM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PxZyE6Jgabo/TUvhRfXgZ-I/AAAAAAAArhE/s7h-2xfB8Xw/s1600/theo1.jpg

same in Yemen and Syria

Anti-regime protests in Tunisia have ignited public demonstrations in other pockets of the Arab world. In the last week, Egyptians have taken to the streets of Cairo en masse to demand the resignation of their leader, Hosni Mubarak. Most recently, on Thursday, Yemeni protesters flooded the nation's capital city of Sana'a to call for their president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, to cede control of the government

source (http://www.wnyc.org/articles/its-free-country/2011/jan/28/protests-yemen/)

NightTrain

02-04-2011, 11:02 AM

once again you speak about isreal like they had the right to invade in the first place.

if we have no troops in sinai then our borders arent safe, or do you only think about the safety of the israelian borders ?

The last thing Israel wants to do is invade Egypt, Abso. You know that.

Troop buildups in the Sinai have led to bloodshed every time in the past - the wise thing to do is not create more trouble over there by injecting a threatening military presence when historically it was a precursor to an armed conflict involving all the regional players.

Besides, if anyone truly wanted to invade Egypt, right now would be the time to strike while the country is in chaos and that hasn't happened.

texastom

02-04-2011, 11:03 AM

What would success be for Egypt? And if he's not to blame for the last 3 decades then who/what is?The people?

I'm dubious of "revolutions" that start 30 years AFTER a guy took power. Especially when it's in a country that, while having its problems, has been pretty much viewed by the outside worlds, as well as its own residents, as being pretty free overall (especially when considered to other countries in the area).

NightTrain

02-04-2011, 11:09 AM

What would success be for Egypt? And if he's not to blame for the last 3 decades then who/what is?

Agree.

If the man has been in power for 30+ years, who else but his cronies and himself would be to blame for the citizenry being so upset as to engage in open revolt?

Is there another body of government that acts as a check and balance to proposed legislation, decrees, mandates and the like?

Thunderknuckles

02-04-2011, 11:17 AM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PxZyE6Jgabo/TUvhRfXgZ-I/AAAAAAAArhE/s7h-2xfB8Xw/s1600/theo1.jpg

same in Yemen and Syria

source (http://www.wnyc.org/articles/its-free-country/2011/jan/28/protests-yemen/)
The problem with the political cartoon is that it is making the wrong assumption about the cause of all of this. It's not Radical Islam, it's degradation in these countries whose leaders have been in power for decades and have done nothing to try and stop it. They continue to enjoy wealth and prosperity, while the standards of living of their citizenry fall. Poverty, unemployment, and starvation create and environment for rebellion and/or a ripe opportunity for those seeking power to grab it by pandering to the emotions of the people. In the ME case, it's Radical Islam.

texastom

02-04-2011, 11:24 AM

The problem with the political cartoon is that it is making the wrong assumption about the cause of all of this. It's not Radical Islam, it's degradation in these countries whose leaders have been in power for decades and have done nothing to try and stop it. They continue to enjoy wealth and prosperity, while the standards of living of their citizenry fall. Poverty, unemployment, and starvation create and environment for rebellion and/or a ripe opportunity for those seeking power to grab it by pandering to the emotions of the people. In the ME case, it's Radical Islam.I'm one that would contend that's a circular argument.

abso

02-04-2011, 12:34 PM

What would success be for Egypt? And if he's not to blame for the last 3 decades then who/what is?

better economy, more money for the people, you will be shocked if you knew how much some people get paid as a salary here.

do you know that about 50-60% of egyptians are considered below the poverty line ?

do you know that average income per year in egypt is about 300-600$ :rolleyes:

some studies exaggerate and say that the average income in egypt is about 1000-2000$ per year, but even if its like that, do you imagine how can they live with such amount of money ?

about 10% of the people have no jobs.

about 30-40% of the youth cant afford to buy a place of his own or marry.

if you look at the salary i will get as telecom engineer when i graduate, its about 200-500$ per month ;)

the best salary i can get as a start will never exceed 700$ (even that salary as a start is just a dream to me).

some workers in egypt get paid 50-100$ per month, how do you expect people to live with that money ???

i just want to tell you all that Radical Islam has nothing to do at all with the revolution, although egyptians are one of the most religious people in the world, but we are not radical at all, the revolution is caused by hunger, opression and despair.

i will say that a prsident is successful when he raise the standards of living in egypt, when the minimum salary in egypt is at least 1500 LE which is equal to about 300$ per month, thats all what the egyptians are asking for, only 300$ per month as a minimum salary in any job, is that too much ? :rolleyes:

abso

02-04-2011, 12:42 PM

The last thing Israel wants to do is invade Egypt, Abso. You know that.

Troop buildups in the Sinai have led to bloodshed every time in the past - the wise thing to do is not create more trouble over there by injecting a threatening military presence when historically it was a precursor to an armed conflict involving all the regional players.

Besides, if anyone truly wanted to invade Egypt, right now would be the time to strike while the country is in chaos and that hasn't happened.

its not about the threat of invasion NT, its about dignity, my dignity as an egptian tells me that i must have the right to move my troops as i want withing my borders, Egypt hasnever been an aggressive country, you can revise the egyptian history since the pharaohs, egypt never been an aggressive country with any colonial aspirations.

its just about the principle, but about a future war between egypt and israel, we both know that this wont happen, USA will never allow that to happen, as both Egypt and Israel are american allies in the region, and USA doesnt want to lose either one so it wont allow one of them to attack the other.

so i believe that Egypt has the right to move its troops freely, thats all.

fj1200

02-04-2011, 01:41 PM

better economy, more money for the people, you will be shocked if you knew how much some people get paid as a salary here.

do you know that about 50-60% of egyptians are considered below the poverty line ?

do you know that average income per year in egypt is about 300-600$ :rolleyes:

some studies exaggerate and say that the average income in egypt is about 1000-2000$ per year, but even if its like that, do you imagine how can they live with such amount of money ?

about 10% of the people have no jobs.

about 30-40% of the youth cant afford to buy a place of his own or marry.

if you look at the salary i will get as telecom engineer when i graduate, its about 200-500$ per month ;)

the best salary i can get as a start will never exceed 700$ (even that salary as a start is just a dream to me).

some workers in egypt get paid 50-100$ per month, how do you expect people to live with that money ???

i just want to tell you all that Radical Islam has nothing to do at all with the revolution, although egyptians are one of the most religious people in the world, but we are not radical at all, the revolution is caused by hunger, opression and despair.

i will say that a prsident is successful when he raise the standards of living in egypt, when the minimum salary in egypt is at least 1500 LE which is equal to about 300$ per month, thats all what the egyptians are asking for, only 300$ per month as a minimum salary in any job, is that too much ? :rolleyes:

It doesn't really shock me although I did check CIA Factbook earlier and it overstates compared to the numbers you're talking about.

In my view government is the ultimate source of whether a people is successful or not and in the case of Mubarak I don't see how you can give him a pass for his time in power. It also seems that very few Muslim countries do well in this regard. I am hoping that what ultimately comes about for you is a government that will back economic reforms that increase your economic freedoms; I think that is even more important than a voice in a democracy. Let's not forget that Mugabe was democratically elected in Zimbabwe.

It's a shame with all the resources that Egypt has that the people have not shared in that.

abso

02-04-2011, 02:20 PM

It doesn't really shock me although I did check CIA Factbook earlier and it overstates compared to the numbers you're talking about.

In my view government is the ultimate source of whether a people is successful or not and in the case of Mubarak I don't see how you can give him a pass for his time in power. It also seems that very few Muslim countries do well in this regard. I am hoping that what ultimately comes about for you is a government that will back economic reforms that increase your economic freedoms; I think that is even more important than a voice in a democracy. Let's not forget that Mugabe was democratically elected in Zimbabwe.

It's a shame with all the resources that Egypt has that the people have not shared in that.

thats exactly what i said, that he failed ;)

he had 30 years to raise the income of his people but he failed, the people only got more and more poor, i may not be poor, but compared to the average income in USA even me are considered poor.

many of the policies needs to be changed, we need to have more industry, we need to stop importing wheat and start producing it, we need to start producing our own weapons instead of spending billions for buying them, we need to start producing alot of things that we import, we need to have more exports than imports, Mubarak had 30 years to do that but he failed.

the economy of egypt is in constant drowning status,
30 years ago ---> 1 EGP = 2.5$
20 years ago ---> 1 EGP = 1.2$,
10 years ago ---> 1 EGP = 0.3$
today ---> 1 EGP = 0.17$

i hope that the coming president will lead the country to a new era, era of prosperity, prosperity for all its people not for its businessmen only.

Thunderknuckles

02-04-2011, 03:30 PM

I'm one that would contend that's a circular argument.
Touche!
:)

fj1200

02-04-2011, 04:22 PM

i hope that the coming president will lead the country to a new era, era of prosperity, prosperity for all its people not for its businessmen only.

There is only one path for that and anything short of economic freedom will be another lost opportunity.

red states rule

02-05-2011, 08:24 AM

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria110205_cmyk20110204045517.jpg

revelarts

02-05-2011, 08:55 AM

red states rule

02-05-2011, 09:08 AM

namvet

02-05-2011, 09:27 AM

The problem with the political cartoon is that it is making the wrong assumption about the cause of all of this. It's not Radical Islam, it's degradation in these countries whose leaders have been in power for decades and have done nothing to try and stop it. They continue to enjoy wealth and prosperity, while the standards of living of their citizenry fall. Poverty, unemployment, and starvation create and environment for rebellion and/or a ripe opportunity for those seeking power to grab it by pandering to the emotions of the people. In the ME case, it's Radical Islam.

yes it is Radical Islam. they've been there for years. they're waiting for the chicken to die so they can pick its neck clean. the terrorists are there. throwing gas on a burning fire. wouldn't you ???

aWcKewmyh_o

namvet

02-05-2011, 09:36 AM

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria110205_cmyk20110204045517.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PxZyE6Jgabo/TUfvxiL6jFI/AAAAAAAArW8/2M8H-GjT5pA/s1600/theo3.jpg

revelarts

02-05-2011, 09:45 AM

red states rule

02-05-2011, 09:52 AM

red states rule

02-05-2011, 10:20 AM

Is the thrill really gone? Will PB now call Chris a hate filled racist? Will Obama publicly call for people not to watch MSNBC

Who gives a damn?

Could it be? Is there something here that both Chris Matthews and Glenn Beck might actually agree on?

In covering the unrest in Egypt all week, Glenn has repeated a number of times that the United States has not managed its relationship with Egypt in an honorable way, first throwing our support behind Mubarak — a dictator for nearly three decades — and now quickly abandoning that relationship as the Mubarak regime crumbles under public pressure.

During a Friday appearance on MSNBC’s Morning Joe, Matthews admitted that while he normally supports President Barack Obama, he feels “ashamed as an American” over how the federal government has handled the unfolding crisis in Egypt.

“We’re not handling [the situation] as Americans should handle a matter like this,” Matthews said. “And Barack Obama, as much as I support him in many ways, there is a transactional quality to the guy that is chilling.”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/matthews-ashamed-as-an-american-over-obamas-handling-of-egyptian-crisis/

texastom

02-05-2011, 12:03 PM

abso

02-05-2011, 07:41 PM

The problem I see in how our government and many that support regime change in Egypt are not looking at the situation with any historical perspective.

Before Mubarak, there was roughly 30 years of on-again-of-again war between Egypt and Israel. Since Mubarak, there has been 30 years of peace. I worry that now there will once again be war.

Over the past 30 years no conflicts that Israel has been involved in have escalated because there was no threat of a widening war that would involve Egypt. Under a new regime, we can't be so sure

Does that mean I do not think the Egyptians have a right of self-determination? No it does not. I'm just pointing out that it's in our best interest (I'm an American, so I worry about how this affects America) to make sure that any regime change is handled in a way that will keep peace in the ME. Any government that can maintain peace though, likely won't be the most democratic either.

that's exactly my point while i am judging Mubarak, although his ways weren't the most democratic ones, but he kept the peace, he made the country well respected throughout the world.

for me democracy itself isn't the goal, maybe i need some parts of the american democracy but there are other parts that i don't need, like the freedom of sex, that is something i don't need at all and i dont respect it, the uncontrolled freedom of media is also not something i like, the media needs to be supervised, but generally the american freedom is something i like.

and for me and the normal people, political life and elections and the senate or congress isn't things that concerns us, i honestly don't care who represents me in the egyptian senate or congress, never cared and never will, all i care about is the standards of living in my country, i don't want to see poor people begging for food in the streets, i don't want to see homeless people searching desperately for some old newspapers that they can cover themselfs with during the cold, i hate to see a 9 years old child having to work to feed his family, i hate to see people who wear ragged clothes and worn out shoes because they cant afford to buy new ones, i want to see everyone recieving the same healthcare no matter how money they have, i don't want to see 80 years old woman begging for money so that she can buy a medicine to survive, a medicine that costs her 25 times her monthly income, this are things that i care about, not the politicans, i don't care about policy, i don't care who represents me in the senate, I DON'T CARE, i don't want to see poor people, i don't want to see people suffering, thats what politicans are for, they are supposed to provide a good enviroment for us all to live a good live, they are supposed to create opportunities for us to take to improve our life, and Mubarak failed to create enough opportunities, thats why he needs to go, i dont hate him, i liked that he kept the country safe, but he really needs to go, maybe the coming president will give us the opportunities to improve our life, i know that a president doesn't just have a magical wand to solve our problems in a blink of an eye, the people are responsible for improving their lifes, but sometimes you need a good president that can provide you with good economy that can sustain all the people and provide them with a good standards of living.

red states rule

02-07-2011, 11:18 AM

and on a side note the liberal meida is swooning over Al Jazeers

Is anyone surprised?

The current liberal swooning over Al Jazeera English has naturally led to a full-page Washington Post ad today featuring the liberal swooning and the message 'WATCH AL JAZEERA ENGLISH NOW." The notoriously anti-American network is not on most cable systems, but they tout their YouTube channel and their mobile apps. These are the morning plugs (emphasis theirs):

"It Is Al Jazeera's Moment" -- The New York Times

"Thank You For What You're Doing" -- Sam Donaldson on ABC's This Week

"Most Comprehensive Coverage of Any Network in Any Language Hands Down" -- The Nation

"Great Reporting. Al Jazeera Has Been An Absolute Lifeline For The Rest Of The World In Understanding What Is Going On" -- Rachel Maddow, MSNBC

There's also the plugs "Mandatory Viewing" from left-wing Salon.com, and the Business Insider website oozing "Even The President of the United States Is Watching Al Jazeera."

The Nation puff -- titled "Washington Embraces Al Jazeera" -- comes from radical Pacifica Radio journalist Jeremy Scahill. Rachel Maddow's ooze came after a January 28 interview with Al Jazeera's Ayman Mohyeldin.

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2011/02/07/al-jazeera-ad-touts-puffs-sam-donaldson-rachel-maddow-new-york-times-and#ixzz1DI4I413j

Kathianne

02-07-2011, 11:19 AM

and on a side note the liberal meida is swooning over Al Jazeers

Is anyone surprised?

In this case, they are right. All Jazeera had the best coverage, from both live streaming, reports on the ground, and on their live blog. No other outlet came close.

Mr. P

02-07-2011, 11:35 AM

In this case, they are right. All Jazeera had the best coverage, from both live streaming, reports on the ground, and on their live blog. No other outlet came close.
I agree.

texastom

02-07-2011, 12:43 PM

Kathianne

02-07-2011, 12:51 PM

Instead of swooning over AJ, they should be ashamed at how horrible THEIR coverage was. Kaitie Couric apparently felt the events in Egypt are so unimportant that she could not interrupt her vacation to cover the event. The talking heads nowadays are more "celebrities" than they are reporters/journalists.

I agree. However most news outlets and newspapers have lost so many viewers/subscribers through bad reporting they no longer have foreign news services as in the past. So, they are unable to report, leaving it up to the biased AP and Reuters.

Al Jazeera did way better than either of the news services, including reports on the Muslim Brotherhood being very late to the cause and El Bareidi being an opportunist. They also reported Obama's failure to take a position and that once he did, it seemed to shift with who appeared to be 'winning.'

texastom

02-07-2011, 01:29 PM

No disagreement from me Kathie, but as was recently pointed out by one media critic.... for what Katie Couric is paid per year by CBS, CBS could hire 300 field journalists at $75K a year....

Kathianne

02-07-2011, 02:03 PM

No disagreement from me Kathie, but as was recently pointed out by one media critic.... for what Katie Couric is paid per year by CBS, CBS could hire 300 field journalists at $75K a year....

And they wonder why their ratings are tanking?

abso

02-11-2011, 11:15 AM

Egyptian President Stepped down from office

fj1200

02-11-2011, 12:05 PM

It's about time.

abso

02-11-2011, 12:15 PM

It's about time.

The real problem isn't him stepping down, its who will Step Up ;)

fj1200

02-11-2011, 12:17 PM

The real problem isn't him stepping down, its who will Step Up ;)

True enough. Abso for President. :thumb:

Mr. P

02-11-2011, 12:23 PM

The real problem isn't him stepping down, its who will Step Up ;)
You mean you youngsters staged a revolution but failed to plan for that?:poke:

Your work has just begun. The hard part comes next, can you keep your new found freedom or will it be stolen by those waiting in the wings?

Thunderknuckles

02-11-2011, 01:19 PM

It appears that power has been handed to the Armed Forces Supreme Council.

I know the Egyptians have a great deal of respect for their military but I always get a little itchy when I hear the words "Supreme Council" :)

red states rule

02-14-2011, 03:22 AM

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/GM110203CLR-ObamaNex20110203044155.jpg

actsnoblemartin

02-14-2011, 03:59 AM

the only supreme the people want is a supreme pizza :laugh:

Kathianne

02-15-2011, 10:21 AM

The real problem isn't him stepping down, its who will Step Up ;)

Abso, you and I aren't the only ones unable to view a likely good outcome for what has happened. Note that the professor's analysis seems to take all the commentators totally by surprise? That's the problem with our media, it's not censorship but a failure of true analysis:

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V9sMo-LTdSc&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V9sMo-LTdSc&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

fj1200

02-15-2011, 10:31 AM

Abso, you and I aren't the only ones unable to view a likely good outcome for what has happened. Note that the professor's analysis seems to take all the commentators totally by surprise? That's the problem with our media, it's not censorship but a failure of true analysis:

I think he benefited from some favorable editing but he was right on. The hostess kept saying that "it worked" but someone should have asked her WHAT worked? Mubarak is out but was that the definition of success or is the definition of success a US friendly/Egyptian friendly form of government? Because that remains to be seen.

Kathianne

02-15-2011, 10:47 AM

I think he benefited from some favorable editing but he was right on. The hostess kept saying that "it worked" but someone should have asked her WHAT worked? Mubarak is out but was that the definition of success or is the definition of success a US friendly/Egyptian friendly form of government? Because that remains to be seen.

I'm often taken aback by how many think that 'democracy' can flourish in lands without an educated populace with knowledge of how the system works. Indeed many here just believe that by casting a vote that democracy exists. It doesn't work that way.

How likely is it that the military will remain in charge and no leaders will be forced into power? From where would they come? I've never been convinced that our type of democracy is workable, much less a panacea everywhere.

The likelihood of the discontent that has occurred in Egypt and is spreading, along with calls like Muammar al-Gaddafi's (http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/02/14/2742961/libyas-gadhafi-tells-palestinians-to-challenge-israel) for massing on Israeli's borders, to deflect his own internal challenges, for peace for the people or the land is very doubtful.

Indeed the outcome is likely to be worse than it's been for the people and the area. In no way does that bode well for US or world stability.

Kathianne

02-15-2011, 01:28 PM

And today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_bahrain_protests

Bahrain protesters take control of main square
By BRIAN MURPHY, Associated Press Brian Murphy, Associated Press 2 hrs 13 mins ago

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates – Thousands of protesters poured into a main square in Bahrain's capital Tuesday in an Egypt-style rebellion that sharply escalated pressure on authorities as the Arab push for change gripped the Gulf for the first time.

Security forces have battled demonstrators calling for political reforms and greater freedoms over two days, leading to the deaths of two protesters and the main opposition group vowing to freeze its work in parliament in protest.

In a clear sign of concern over the widening crisis, Bahrain's King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa made a rare national TV address, offering condolences for the deaths, pledging an investigation into the killings and promising to push ahead with reforms, which include loosening state controls on the media and Internet.

"We extend our condolences to the parents of the dear sons who died yesterday and today. We pray that they are inspired by the Almighty's patience, solace and tranquility," said the king, who had previously called for an emergency Arab summit to discuss the growing unrest.

As the crowds surged into the Pearl Square in the capital of Manama, security forces appeared to hold back. But key highways were blocked in an apparent attempt to choke off access to the vast traffic circle — which protesters quickly renamed "Nation's Square" and erected banners such as "Peaceful" that were prominent in Cairo's Tahrir Square, the epicenter of protests there...

fj1200

02-15-2011, 01:52 PM

I'm often taken aback by how many think that 'democracy' can flourish in lands without an educated populace with knowledge of how the system works. Indeed many here just believe that by casting a vote that democracy exists. It doesn't work that way.

How likely is it that the military will remain in charge and no leaders will be forced into power? From where would they come? I've never been convinced that our type of democracy is workable, much less a panacea everywhere.

The likelihood of the discontent that has occurred in Egypt and is spreading, along with calls like Muammar al-Gaddafi's (http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/02/14/2742961/libyas-gadhafi-tells-palestinians-to-challenge-israel) for massing on Israeli's borders, to deflect his own internal challenges, for peace for the people or the land is very doubtful.

Indeed the outcome is likely to be worse than it's been for the people and the area. In no way does that bode well for US or world stability.

True enough but in many places it's one-vote one-time or it's the Mubarak/Saddam type election where it's only a referendum type election with no other option; either way no further votes for improvements are allowed. I'm becoming more of the mind that the people will only see real improvements if they make gains with economic freedoms rather than electoral freedoms, I'd rather have the former than the latter.

Kathianne

02-18-2011, 03:51 AM

Perhaps not so suddenly:

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/02/17/138093.html

DUBAI (Farrag Ismael)

For the first time since he was banned from leading weekly friday prayers in Egypt 30 years ago, prominent Muslim scholar Yusuf al-Qaradawi will lead thousands in the weekly prayers from Cairo’s Tahrir Square on Friday.

Sources told Al Arabiya that a military force will accompany the head of the International Union of Muslim Scholars from his home to Tahrir Square, provide security for the prayers and accompany him back to his residence.

...

So who is he?

Based in Qatar, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi is one of the most influential clerics in Sunni Islam. He currently serves as president of the European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFW), and is a highly influential spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. Qaradawi has twice (in 1976 and 2004) turned down opportunities to serve as the Brotherhood’s highest-ranking leader. His preference, he explains, is to avoid tying himself to "any movement which might constrain my actions, even if this is the Muslim Brotherhood under whose umbrella I grew and which I so defended."

In addition to his affiliations with the aforementioned groups, Qaradawi is founder and president of the International Association of Muslim Scholars, which has issued several anti-Zionist fatwas (religious edicts). He is chairman of the IslamOnline website, which has published numerous articles and religious rulings which were anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, and supportive of violence against non-Muslims. He is also chairman (in absentia) of the board of trustees at the Michigan-based Islamic American University (IAU), a subsidiary of the Muslim American Society. And he is president of the Union of Good, a Saudi-based umbrella organization which represents Islamic fundraising groups worldwide, and which has transferred tens of millions of dollars directly to Hamas over the years...

abso

02-18-2011, 04:19 AM

Kathianne

02-18-2011, 04:29 AM

what really amazes me is that some people have democracy itself as their goal.

what is democracy to you, what will you gain from it ???, democracy isn't the only way for prosperity to be gained, i don't see any real democracy in UAE, yet, look and see how they live, i don't care if i live in repuplic or kingdom, all i care about is what will that president or king do to improve my life, how will he imrpove his country, will everyone be able to live a good life, or will i see millions of poor people sleeping in the streets.

democracy and politics only matters to people who already have money and have a good life standards, but the poor in the street just wants to live, they don't care about who rule them, they just want to live like us, so what i care about is how to make them live like us.

for me, democracy isn't a goal, prosperity in every aspect of people's life is my only goal.

for me democracy is a secondary goal to be achieved after you reach the primary goal, so when you look at a poor country, you make it prosper first then you think about its political system.

i am sure that we all know that many great empires in history have prospered and attained great knowledge and wealth without having any democracy.

Abso! We must write this down, we agree! :laugh:

I am all for individual liberties, I think they make life better. However, if I were raised in China, I would believe that the individual is nothing, what matters is the family and ancestors.

We live in a republic, not a democracy. Many Americans don't understand the difference and we are a rich, very educated society, in spite of our self-flagellation.

Even with all the prior history which led to the American Revolution, over 1/3 disagreed with the idea and 1/3 didn't care one way or another. There was a history of self-government growing from day 1 in the colonies, but over hundreds of years in Britain.

Those protesting in Egypt, may think they wanted Mubarek to go for 'democracy' or 'democratic principles', but without a real understanding of the cultural changes that would incur.

Now? I wish I saw more hope for peace, but all I see right now is very gloomy. The area is already becoming more chaotic:

http://reason.com/blog/2011/02/17/saudi-arabia-is-very-very-scar

"Saudi Arabia is very, very scared now"

Stephen J. Smith | February 17, 2011

Despite denials from sources close to the Bahraini government, credible rumors of Saudi tanks and troops on the ground in Bahrain are widespread, as the ruling Bahraini House of Khalifa desperately reasserts control in the capital after initially ceding the central Pearl Square to tens of thousands of anti-government protesters. The House of Saud, as you may recall, has a strong interest in ensuring that the Shiite-driven unrest in Bahrain doesn't spill over to Saudi Arabia's own Shiite-manned oil fields.

In addition to the Nicholas Kristof tweet that Jesse Walker posted earlier (more here), which suggested that Saudi troops were stopping ambulances from helping protesters injured in the surprise midnight attack (and that's not the only suggestion of medics being prevented from helping), there are a few reports that Saudi tanks may have arrived on the island. One Spanish racing team owner (Bahrain was set to host the season-opening Formula 1 Grand Prix next month, something which is now very much in doubt) claimed that "there are Saudi tanks everywhere." An Iranian news organization is claiming the Saudis sent hundreds of tanks and personnel carriers in from Qatar, which it backs up with a video of armored personnel carriers rolling down a highway in Manama, though I can't confirm that those are actually from Saudi Arabia. The Guardian writes, somewhat ambiguously: "Tanks and troops from Saudi Arabia were reported to have been deployed in support of Bahraini forces."...

Kathianne

02-18-2011, 04:37 AM

What I see is the radicals using the guise of democracy for their own purposes:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110218/wl_nm/us_egypt;_ylt=AqWWjnS06W.CWCzunCrwbBFvaA8F;_ylu=X3 oDMTI5YWFrNnF1BGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTEwMjE4L3VzX2VneXB0 BGNwb3MDMwRwb3MDNwRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNlZ3 lwdHF1b3R2aWM-

Egypt "Victory March" tests military rulers
By Marwa Awad and Dina Zayed Marwa Awad And Dina Zayed 11 mins ago

CAIRO (Reuters) – Egyptians held a nationwide "Victory March" on Friday to celebrate the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak's 30-year rule one week ago and to remind the new military rulers of the power of the street.

The scale of the march, which will also act as a memorial to the 365 people who died in the 18-day uprising that shook the Middle East, will be a gauge of Egyptian people power and of the nation's feeling about the transition to civilian rule.

With the Higher Military Council facing demands to free political prisoners and to lift emergency rules after dissolving parliament and suspending the constitution, all eyes will also be on how the military manages the event...

...The revolution in Egypt, a U.S. ally which has signed a peace treaty with Israel, sent tremors through the region. Protests have erupted in Libya, Yemen, Bahrain, Iran and Iraq, taking their cue from Egypt and Tunisia before it.

NEW MINISTERS

Security officials said Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq will announce ministers making up the new emergency government next week and hoped the reshuffle would help to appease protesters and workers on strike.

"Shafiq will announce the new government early next week ... Sunday or at the latest Monday and hopefully this will convince people to turn to their daily affairs," said an official, as the military council sought to restore normal life.

The Muslim Brotherhood, which says it seeks to achieve a democratic Islamic state by peaceful means, is seen as the only truly organized bloc in Egypt and believes it could win up to 30 percent of votes in a free election.

"We urge all noble people ... to guard the revolution and its legitimate demands, and not to leave the chance for opportunists to kidnap it and its accomplishments which, with God's permission, have begun to bear fruit," said the Brotherhood's leader Mohamed Badie, ahead of the march.

"This is an Egypt that cannot be deceived," Badie said in his Friday message to followers on the Brotherhood's website.

Sheikh Yousef al-Qaradawi's sermon is expected to focus on telling the faithful about the importance of their role in building a free and democratic society in the world's most populous Arab nation...

abso

02-18-2011, 06:14 AM

Kathianne

02-18-2011, 06:22 AM

about radicals, till now, no radicalism has been seen in the streets, even Islamic brotherhood till now is very moderate about all the issues, they already declared that they respect all the treaties with israel, they don't want to cancel the peace treaty, they just want to revise the gas selling agreement, and some issues about the treaty, and they also declared that they have no intent to run for presidency, they have no wish to rule the country.

we will see if they will be committed to their own words or not.

Abso, please tell me where this is wrong:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704132204576136590964621006.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

'The Quran Is Our Law; Jihad Is Our Way'
For a sense of the kind of Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood wants, start with its motto.

By AYAAN HIRSI ALI

'Allah is our objective; the Prophet is our leader; the Quran is our law; Jihad is our way; dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." So goes the motto of the Muslim Brotherhood.

What's extraordinary about this maxim is the succinct way that it captures the political dimension of Islam. Even more extraordinary is the capacity of these five pillars of faith to attract true believers. But the most remarkable thing of all is the way the Brotherhood's motto seduces Western liberals.

Readers of this paper are familiar with the genesis of the Muslim Brotherhood: its establishment in Egypt in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna; its history of terrorism; its violent offshoots such as al Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jamait Islamiya, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and others across the Muslim world. Readers may also recall the brutal crackdowns on the Brothers by autocratic regimes in the Middle East—particularly in Egypt under Nasser and in Syria during the Hama massacre of 1982.

As a result of these crackdowns, the Brotherhood renounced violence in the 1970s (after Nasser's regime executed the Islamist philosopher Sayyid Qutb in 1966) and started a gradual process to participate in conventional politics. This renunciation—and the Brotherhood's involvement in the Egyptian uprising, neither violent nor dominant—has prompted some commentators to encourage the American government to engage with the Brothers as legitimate partners in Middle Eastern affairs...

These apologists for the Muslim Brotherhood are targeting two audiences. The first is the small but influential liberal elite in the U.S. and its larger counterpart in Europe, which has never been comfortable supporting the likes of Mr. Mubarak and would love to believe in a touchy-feely moderate Islamism...

The Brotherhood's political skill is formidable and it seems to be achieving its goals—namely, insistence from gullible Westerners that there should be elections as soon as possible and at least tacit support from young Egyptians whose votes it will need to win.

Rather than running op-eds by the likes of Mr. Ramadan, the Western press would better serve Egyptians by exposing the Brotherhood's hidden agenda. Due to the limits on press freedom in Egypt, many educated Egyptians and other Arabs depend on the Western media for news and analysis. To deny them close scrutiny of the Brotherhood's past and future plans is unforgivable.

Instead of simply pushing for elections at the earliest opportunity, Western commentators should be pushing for more time—above all, to allow the drafting of a new Egyptian constitution. Such a constitution would introduce checks and balances, eliminate the one-party system, and guarantee the protection of human rights. In particular, it would safeguard Egypt against the imposition of Shariah law...

abso

02-18-2011, 11:56 AM

Abso, please tell me where this is wrong:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704132204576136590964621006.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

nothing is wrong about it, except that none is certain about the violent nature of Islamic brotherhood, there is no formal policy in the brotherhood that call for violence, that is as far as i know about them.

what i know, that they only seek a moderate Islamic egypt, i do not support them, because i am not sure of their goals, but i admit that i have common goals, i also wants egypt to be modern Islamic country with moderate Islamic attitude, but no stict laws.

so because i am not sure about what they will do, i am nost sure if they will impose strict rules or the will be moderate as they say, i am not willing to take the chance, i want egypt to be Islamic country, but not through them, through normal moderate muslims, they maybe moderate, but the problem is that they may be pretending to be moderate, the people i know from the brotherhood are all moderate muslims, i never saw a strict one, but i don't know the people who actually control the brotherhood, that's why i can't put my full trust in them yet.

so bottom line, do i want them in power, NO.

do i want them to disappear, also NO, they represent themselfs, and in any free country we must allow everyone to represent himself through any party he would like, and if they want to be a political party, then they are more than welcome, but i will not be voting for them.

anyway, rest assured, they will not be in power, they don't want it, and none will give it to them anyway, the egyptians never wanted strict Islamic country, and certainly they still don't want it.

abso

02-18-2011, 12:00 PM

Abso, please tell me where this is wrong:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704132204576136590964621006.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

also, with all due respect, i would like to point you to something, which is that you are wrong about the meaning of Jihad and Sharia Law, they have nothing to do with violence in their nature, but they can be intrepreted in wrong ways, as much as a Gun can be used to protect someone or kill him.

Kathianne

02-18-2011, 01:43 PM

also, with all due respect, i would like to point you to something, which is that you are wrong about the meaning of Jihad and Sharia Law, they have nothing to do with violence in their nature, but they can be intrepreted in wrong ways, as much as a Gun can be used to protect someone or kill him.

Ummm, not my interpretation, but the author, a Muslim. Sides which, I believe she was referring to their motto? You can probably access their Arabic site in Egypt. The English site doesn't have anything about their history, motto, mission statements. From various sources, some back to the 90's, I find the quote stated in Wall Street Journal article.

Kathianne

02-18-2011, 02:14 PM

Hunting through the site, I do find some interesting things:

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/about.php

Ikhwanweb

IKhwanweb is the Muslim Brotherhood"s only official English web site. The Main office is located in London, although Ikhwanweb has correspondents in most countries. Our staff is exclusively made of volunteers and stretched over the five continents.

The Muslim Brotherhood opinions and views can be found under the sections of MB statements and MB opinions, in addition to the Editorial Message.

Items posted under "other views" are usually different from these of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Ikhwanweb does not censor any articles or comments but has the right only to remove any inappropriate words that defy public taste

Ikhwanweb is not a news website, although we report news that matter to the Muslim Brotherhood"s cause.

Our main misson is to present the Muslim Brotherhood vision right from the source and rebut misonceptions about the movement in western societies. We value debate on the issues and we welcome constructive criticism.

Ikhwanweb was founded by Khairat el Shater, Deputy Chiarman of the Muslim Brotherhood, and was launched in 2005.

For more information please contact Khaled Hamza, Chief Editor at any of the following emails

info@ikhwanweb.com

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=813

First there is an introductory section on history of how historically they should treat non-believers well. Then they explain the problems, some with religious interpretations of Islam, some with the non-believers. Then they come to the principles.

The Principles of The Muslim Brotherhood

THE PRINCIPLES OF THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD

The call of the Muslim Brotherhood was based on two key pillars:

1-The introduction of the Islamic Shari`ah as the basis controlling the affairs of state and society.
2-Work to achieve unification among the Islamic countries and states, mainly among the Arab states, and liberating them from foreign imperialism. I'm assuming Abso has no problem with the second, but might have some questions about the first? Maybe not.

...

There's lots more, but their stated reforms and what we've seen in US/UK prisons and the 'out reach' practiced, belies much of what they seem to be saying.

Anyhow, it would take a lot more reading than I presently have time for.

Gaffer

02-18-2011, 03:14 PM

Kathianne

02-18-2011, 03:51 PM

The muslim brotherhood is bad news for Egypt and the whole area. They will pretend to be moderate and peaceful and oppose radicalism. But only until they have enough power in the government to take over and impose an islamic state. One that would resemble iran or the taliban.

Indeed. They've been working on it for more than a decade. Interestingly enough, they nearly missed the boat a few weeks ago. Their organization however seems to have gotten ahead of the curve, appealing to the youth, so we'll just have to watch.

Kathianne

02-20-2011, 06:38 PM

Perhaps not so suddenly:

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/02/17/138093.html

So who is he?

I had noticed no follow up reporting, seems though that AFP did. Video and links at site:

http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2011/02/yuppie-revolution-in-egypt-is-over.html

Sunday, February 20, 2011
The Yuppie Revolution In Egypt Is Over, The Islamist Revolution Has Begun

When it came to overthrowing Hosni Mubarek, the western media thrust itself into the situation and portrayed the uprising as a western-style demand for freedom.

The television screens were filled with stories of relatively western figures such as Google employee Wael Ghonim, who became the face of the new Egypt -- educated, professional, and desirous of freedom as we know it.

Now that Mubarek is gone, the western media mostly has moved on to the next revolution, secure in the perception that Egypt is moving in the right direction.

But that is a false comfort. As I posted yesterday, over a million Egyptians turned out in Tahrir Square last Friday to cheer the vile anti-Semitic Sunni cleric Sheik Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who had been exiled by Mubarek, and who espouses the fundamentalist Islamic view that Jews must live as Dhimmis under Islamic control. Instead of accurately reporting the significance of this event, The New York Times whitewashed the cleric as someone who supports a "a pluralistic, multiparty, civil democracy."

Here is the video of the rally (in Arabic, via Israel Matzav) with the crowd chanting:

"To Jerusalem We go, for us to be the Martyrs of the Millions."

Where was the western hero Ghonim?

He tried to take the microphone to speak to the crowd, presumably to preach his western values, but he was kept off the stage by Sheik al-Qaradawi's security.

But you probably haven't heard that, because it was not widely reported, except by AFP, Egypt protest hero Wael Ghonim barred from stage (h/t Israel Matzav):

Google executive Wael Ghonim, who emerged as a leading voice in Egypt's uprising, was barred from the stage in Tahrir Square on Friday by security guards, an AFP photographer said. Ghonim tried to take the stage in Tahrir, the epicentre of anti-regime protests that toppled President Hosni Mubarak, b ut men who appeared to be guarding influential Muslim cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi barred him from doing so.

Ghonim, who was angered by the episode, then left the square with his face hidden by an Egyptian flag.

This is the problem with those, like Roger Cohen in The New York Times, who glorify the "Arab Street." Ghonim was not the face of the "Arab Street," he merely was a face to which western media could relate.

Will the western media be as vigorous in exposing what is going on now in Egypt as it was in exposing the wrongs of Mubarek? I think not, because the truth -- that the western media acted as willing dupes once again -- hits too close to home.

As for Ghonim, expect him to follow the path of the intelligentsia wherever Islamist forces have taken control. He'll move to the United States, where he will sit down for another 60 Minutes interview lamenting what has become of his beloved Egypt.

Gaffer

02-20-2011, 07:46 PM

Kathianne

02-20-2011, 07:50 PM

Just as I suspected. Another iran type situation. This group will be more like the taliban however. Abso may be coming to America sooner than he anticipated. Another socialist attempt at governance gets squashed by the theocrats.

Once the muslim brotherhoos gets power watch how fast they start locking up and executing the educated social democrats, aka communists. In iran they executed all of them.

The MB has tempered their language over the past decade, but as their efficiency in converting criminals in US and European prisons illustrates, not their goals.

I wish things looked better in Egypt, but I am afraid that when all is said and done in months more likely than years, Abso is going to be very disappointed.

abso

02-20-2011, 08:46 PM

The MB has tempered their language over the past decade, but as their efficiency in converting criminals in US and European prisons illustrates, not their goals.

I wish things looked better in Egypt, but I am afraid that when all is said and done in months more likely than years, Abso is going to be very disappointed.

i am very sorry to say that, but anyway i stopped caring about what happens here long time ago, i already set my goal to live in UAE or USA or maybe Canada because going to Canada is alot easier than going to USA.

Gaffer

02-20-2011, 08:47 PM

The MB has tempered their language over the past decade, but as their efficiency in converting criminals in US and European prisons illustrates, not their goals.

I wish things looked better in Egypt, but I am afraid that when all is said and done in months more likely than years, Abso is going to be very disappointed.

I think so too. the mb can temper their language all they want, they don't fool me. It's an evil organization with very specific goals. I give it a few months until the take over. Then a couple of years to get things together and under control and begin exporting more terrorism. And I don't think Israel will give the Sinai back to them after the next war.

abso

02-20-2011, 08:56 PM

Hunting through the site, I do find some interesting things:

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/about.php

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=813

First there is an introductory section on history of how historically they should treat non-believers well. Then they explain the problems, some with religious interpretations of Islam, some with the non-believers. Then they come to the principles.

There's lots more, but their stated reforms and what we've seen in US/UK prisons and the 'out reach' practiced, belies much of what they seem to be saying.

Anyhow, it would take a lot more reading than I presently have time for.

interesting...

but since they say that they must treat non-muslims well, i searched in your post for anything that condemn the MB but i couldn't find it, so what's your point ???

if you mean the unification, i am not against it, the arabs will become much stronger together, i am not against such unification, but i am against using such newly unified states to rage wars against anyone.

abso

02-20-2011, 08:58 PM

I think so too. the mb can temper their language all they want, they don't fool me. It's an evil organization with very specific goals. I give it a few months until the take over. Then a couple of years to get things together and under control and begin exporting more terrorism. And I don't think Israel will give the Sinai back to them after the next war.

lets not jump too much, lets be patient and wait, we don't need to put too many predicetions that may become false.

Gaffer

02-20-2011, 09:41 PM

lets not jump too much, lets be patient and wait, we don't need to put too many predicetions that may become false.

I do like it when I'm wrong. Most of my predictions tend to come true in one way or another. Not always just as I predict them, but in general. I can't be real specific because I don't have all the facts.

I suspect this was originally orchestrated from washington. An attempt to create democracies in the middle east, much like carter did with iran. The groups responsible are mostly democratic socialists, much like the groups in iran. But they have again misjudged the people of the countries they are stirring things up in and the deep religious convictions of the uneducated. They will eventually meet the same fate as the groups in iran.

There will then be two major power groups vying for power in the middle east. The shia centered in iran and the sunni centered in Egypt. And they will battle for supremacy.

They don't want Israel taken down too fast either. Because they need someone to blame and keep the masses occupied and hate driven so they don't pay attention to their own miserable lives and blame the government.

I love being wrong and I hope many years from now you can make me a joke in a conversation. But just keep the predictions in the back of your mind for a while and see how things develop.

Kathianne

02-20-2011, 09:59 PM

I do like it when I'm wrong. Most of my predictions tend to come true in one way or another. Not always just as I predict them, but in general. I can't be real specific because I don't have all the facts.

I suspect this was originally orchestrated from washington. An attempt to create democracies in the middle east, much like carter did with iran. The groups responsible are mostly democratic socialists, much like the groups in iran. But they have again misjudged the people of the countries they are stirring things up in and the deep religious convictions of the uneducated. They will eventually meet the same fate as the groups in iran.

There will then be two major power groups vying for power in the middle east. The shia centered in iran and the sunni centered in Egypt. And they will battle for supremacy.

They don't want Israel taken down too fast either. Because they need someone to blame and keep the masses occupied and hate driven so they don't pay attention to their own miserable lives and blame the government.

I love being wrong and I hope many years from now you can make me a joke in a conversation. But just keep the predictions in the back of your mind for a while and see how things develop.

I agree. I often may get the details wrong in predictions, but overall tend to get the main points right. So far with Egypt, I'm doing a bit higher than normal.

If I understand Abso correctly thus far, he doesn't wish to jump to conclusions, but already has decided to get out of Dodge.

Gaffer

02-20-2011, 10:24 PM

I agree. I often may get the details wrong in predictions, but overall tend to get the main points right. So far with Egypt, I'm doing a bit higher than normal.

If I understand Abso correctly thus far, he doesn't wish to jump to conclusions, but already has decided to get out of Dodge.

Yeah, at least he's got that going for him. And I think he has time to consider options.

You have been proven right quite regularly on Egypt. I first started this thread because I had feeling this was going to be BIG. You turned it into a sticky for the same reason well before it erupted. The next biggie will be Libya, that country's going to explode. I'm expecting Kaddafi to do a Mussolini routine at the end of a rope. Maybe a few family members along with him.

abso

02-21-2011, 03:44 AM

I do like it when I'm wrong. Most of my predictions tend to come true in one way or another. Not always just as I predict them, but in general. I can't be real specific because I don't have all the facts..

i hope that you are wrong too, also i can understand the reasons of your predictions, i agree that this is the most probable result to happen considering the circumstances in the ME nowadays, my predictions lies only with my trust that egyptian people will not hand the power to any strict people, i hope my trust is not proven wrong.

I suspect this was originally orchestrated from washington. An attempt to create democracies in the middle east, much like carter did with iran. The groups responsible are mostly democratic socialists, much like the groups in iran. But they have again misjudged the people of the countries they are stirring things up in and the deep religious convictions of the uneducated. They will eventually meet the same fate as the groups in iran.

the words i marked are true and wise, i agree completely, this problem seems to always present itself with the uneducated people, they are the proplem, they can be driven into any state by any power that can reach them, which is the task of any government in the world, to reach its poor and uneducated class, because if they fall into the control of any other country, they will be a very serious problem, i am not saying that particulary about the Muslim Brotherhood, as i said i am not sure that they have intentions of turning egypt into strict country or not, but i am saying that in general, be it MB or any other force that can reach out to the poor and uneducated, it will control them, and by controlling the crowds you control the country, and the problem in egypt is that the poor and uneducated are the crowds, because most of the people are very poor and uneducated.

i hope that none will be able to convince those crowds with the idea of forming strict islamic government in egypt, i do like the idea of egypt being Islamic, but i hate the idea of being strict, and i certainly hate the idea of having second Iran very much, the world doesn't need anymore Irans, one is more than enough problems for all of us.

There will then be two major power groups vying for power in the middle east. The shia centered in iran and the sunni centered in Egypt. And they will battle for supremacy...

true, but i hope not, i like to think that they will not battle, its just my hope not my prediction, as you said shia and sunni had their differences long time ago, and i think they may battle for control over each other, like in Iraq, the sunni and shiaa are raging wars against themselfs to take control over the country, they talk about each other like if they were from different religions, while they are both from the same one, the differences between us is very trivial, just in our preception of some stories, we like Umar, they hate Umar, thats all, does that need to cause all that chaos and war !!!, its stupid.

for me, if i have to choose between sunni and shia, i would like to see sunni in power, shiaa have strange habits, very strange ones, and they are far more strict than sunni.

They don't want Israel taken down too fast either. Because they need someone to blame and keep the masses occupied and hate driven so they don't pay attention to their own miserable lives and blame the government...

unifying the people and diverting them from their own problems by either making them concentrate on a real or imaginary enemy had been a historic practice since centuries ago, every leader who face a crack among his own people always tend to unify it by making them hate something, make them dedicate themselfs to a cause, that may be right or wrong, but its just a tactic to divert them from the low standards of living being provided to them and to prevent them from revolting.

Mubarak could have announced war against Israel to divert the people from the revolution, but i do believe that he loved his country, thats why he kept it safe for the past 30 years, he befriended all the countries in the world, and he kept us away from war.

anyway, about MB using that tactic to divert people from their pain, i dont think that is possible, because the people have already revolted, there is no going back now, none will be quiet again until he gets his rights, many reforms have already been made, good ones, that will affect the whole country, mane ministers from the previous regime has been arrested, many bank accounts have been suspeded including the accounts of Mubarak Son, Gamal Mubarak, alot of money is going to be confisicated, more than 50-100 Billion$ is expected to be returned, thats my prediction, there is no formal assessment till now, but i am sure that there are more than 250 Billion $ stolen from egypt, if we can just get 50 or 60 billion back, we will be able to end the foriegn debt, they are just 33 billion.

so for now, the people have woken up at last, and i hope egypt will be different.

I love being wrong and I hope many years from now you can make me a joke in a conversation. But just keep the predictions in the back of your mind for a while and see how things develop.

I Hope so too my friend :salute:

i will make sure to remember your predictions, and we are going to talk about them again in many years from now, after we see the changes.

Kathianne

02-21-2011, 12:25 PM

Yeah, at least he's got that going for him. And I think he has time to consider options.

You have been proven right quite regularly on Egypt. I first started this thread because I had feeling this was going to be BIG. You turned it into a sticky for the same reason well before it erupted. The next biggie will be Libya, that country's going to explode. I'm expecting Kaddafi to do a Mussolini routine at the end of a rope. Maybe a few family members along with him.

Indeed:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/21/us-libya-venezuela-idUSTRE71K40R20110221

Venezuela denies Libya's Gaddafi en route
12:05pm EST

CARACAS (Reuters) - A senior source in the Venezuelan government denied on Monday reports that Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi was traveling to the South American oil-producing nation led by his ally President Hugo Chavez.

The Caracas government "denies such information," the source told Reuters.

British Foreign Secretary William Hague said earlier he had seen information to suggest Gaddafi had fled Libya amid violent protests in several cities that have unsettled the government, and that he was on his way to the South American oil-exporting nation.

Several media had also reported rumors that Gaddafi was headed to Venezuela. Chavez and Gaddafi have visited each other and enjoy warm political relations.

(Reporting by Frank Jack Daniel, Writing by Andrew Cawthorne; editing by Philip Barbara)

China too is having problems, but they won't get out of control:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_china_jasmine_revolution

China stamps out attempt at Mideast-style protests
By ANITA CHANG, Associated Press Anita Chang, Associated Press Mon Feb 21, 5:20 am ET

BEIJING – Jittery Chinese authorities staged a show of force to squelch a mysterious online call for a "Jasmine Revolution," with hundreds of onlookers but only a handful of people actively joining protests inspired by pro-democracy demonstrations sweeping the Middle East.

Authorities detained activists Sunday, increased the number of police on the streets, disconnected some cell phone text messaging services and censored Internet postings about the call to stage protests in Beijing, Shanghai and 11 other major cities.

Police took at least three people away in Beijing, one of whom tried to place white jasmine flowers on a planter while hundreds of people milled about the protest gathering spot, outside a McDonald's on the capital's busiest shopping street. In Shanghai, police led away three people near the planned protest spot after they scuffled in an apparent bid to grab the attention of passers-by.

Many activists said they didn't know who was behind the campaign and weren't sure what to make of the call to protest, which first circulated Saturday on the U.S.-based Chinese-language news website Boxun.com....

Gaffer

02-21-2011, 01:10 PM

Indeed:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/21/us-libya-venezuela-idUSTRE71K40R20110221

China too is having problems, but they won't get out of control:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_china_jasmine_revolution

I read about china's unrest but hadn't heard about kaddafi going to Venezuela. I guess that's why his son kept insisting he was there and leading the military against the revolt. Interesting that he's not looking among the arab nations for a safe haven. I wonder if Odessa has been reactivated?

Nukeman

02-21-2011, 01:29 PM

How about this... Two Col. In the Lybian Air Force refused orders and flew to Malta for asylum..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110221/ap_on_re_eu/eu_malta_libya

VALLETTA, Malta – Two Libyan air force jets landed in Malta on Monday and their pilots asked for political asylum amid a bloody crackdown on anti-government protesters in Libya, a military source said.

The two Mirage jets landed at Malta International Airport shortly after two civilian helicopters landed carrying seven people who said they were French. A military source familiar with the situation said the passengers had left in such a hurry that only one had a passport.

chose to leave instead of firing on thier own people... We see this type of restraint in these countries and we still have the looney left on here saying OUR military would fire on us!!! Hmmm

namvet

02-21-2011, 08:47 PM

I read about china's unrest but hadn't heard about kaddafi going to Venezuela. I guess that's why his son kept insisting he was there and leading the military against the revolt. Interesting that he's not looking among the arab nations for a safe haven. I wonder if Odessa has been reactivated?

Venezuela denies Libya's Gaddafi en route

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/21/us-libya-venezuela-idUSTRE71K40R20110221

namvet

02-21-2011, 08:52 PM

How about this... Two Col. In the Lybian Air Force refused orders and flew to Malta for asylum..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110221/ap_on_re_eu/eu_malta_libya

chose to leave instead of firing on thier own people... We see this type of restraint in these countries and we still have the looney left on here saying OUR military would fire on us!!! Hmmm

Fox TV said today Gadhafi duck ordered his air force to attack and destroy any bases that had munitions that protester could acquire.

namvet

02-21-2011, 08:53 PM

I think I hear Reagan laffin'

Kathianne

02-21-2011, 08:59 PM

Venezuela denies Libya's Gaddafi en route

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/21/us-libya-venezuela-idUSTRE71K40R20110221

You just pasted the same link as my first. :thumb:

namvet

02-21-2011, 09:25 PM

You just pasted the same link as my first. :thumb:

ok Kath. im sufficiently embarrassed. first day with my new eye's :laugh2:

Kathianne

03-05-2011, 05:58 PM

And in the news again:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5haEU3JtZ6nzUc86-vNABliMMhUIw?docId=CNG.97f06e36a1a0cb62da2c4bda698 70ba9.561

'Two dead, church torched' in Egypt sectarian clash

(AFP) – 10 hours ago

CAIRO — Two men were killed during clashes in Egypt between Muslims and Christians, which also saw Muslims set fire to a church in the village of Sol, south of Cairo, a security official said on Saturday.

"Two people were killed, and the Shahedain church set on fire in clashes between two families," the official told the MENA news agency.

The violence was triggered by a feud between the families, which disapproved of a romantic relationship between a Christian man and a Muslim woman in the province of Helwan.

It culminated in fighting on Friday in which both of the couples' fathers were killed, another security official said.

After the funeral for the woman's father on Saturday, a group of Muslims headed to the village church and set it on fire.

The army, which has been maintaining security in Egypt since police disappeared during anti-regime protests last month, managed to put the fire out and restore calm to the area, the official said...

abso

03-05-2011, 11:56 PM

And in the news again:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5haEU3JtZ6nzUc86-vNABliMMhUIw?docId=CNG.97f06e36a1a0cb62da2c4bda698 70ba9.561

thats the usual expected result when a romantic relationship starts between any christian and a muslim, when the woman is muslim, muslims get angry, and when the woman is christian, christians get angry.

Kathianne

03-06-2011, 02:50 AM

thats the usual expected result when a romantic relationship starts between any christian and a muslim, when the woman is muslim, muslims get angry, and when the woman is christian, christians get angry.

Sure it is 'expected' the anger that leads to those not performing honor killing when expected. I do believe this conversation and your denial of such occurred much earlier in the thread. So honor killings are to be expected in Egypt now.

abso

03-06-2011, 04:58 AM

Sure it is 'expected' the anger that leads to those not performing honor killing when expected. I do believe this conversation and your denial of such occurred much earlier in the thread. So honor killings are to be expected in Egypt now.

i didn't deny its existence, i said it doesn't exist on a large scale as you think.

and you already ignored what i said, that christians also practice the same tradition, its a tradition not a religion, i mentioned before the incident in which a christian man killed his christian sister and her baby and injured her husband and their daughter, he just opened fire on the whole family because she married a muslim man and ran away from her family because her christian family didn't agree with such marriage.

its a tradition in ME not to allow the women to marry men from other religion, and even when men marry women from other religion, the men's families disagree but they don't tend to express their disagreement in a violent way.

so for the woman's family, its a very serious problem which they tend to act violently because of it.
but for the man's family its a problem but not as big as it is for the woman's family.

the honor thing is not religious, its just tradition, some families even have a tradition that does not allow their boys or girls to marry anyone outside the family, and such tradition is for both, men and women.

i have discussed this problem before, and explained it, families in ME doesnt accept the fact that their girl might marry someone from other religion.

and the number of incidents is very low, because its rare to find muslim and christian marrying each other in ME.

there is different kind of honor killings, which is religious in that case, when a man kills another man who raped his daughter or wife, such honor killing is something i support in case if the court didnt send him to death row or if the court found him not guilty or dismissed the case for any Procedural error, in such case if the father or husand is 100% sure that this man is the rapist, then i wont even care if they kill him.

Kathianne

03-06-2011, 05:05 AM

Abso, I wonder if you realize just how much :dance: you have to do to make coherence of the differences between religion and tradition? The whole fabric of your society is rooted in Islam.

abso

03-06-2011, 06:59 AM

Abso, I wonder if you realize just how much :dance: you have to do to make coherence of the differences between religion and tradition? The whole fabric of your society is rooted in Islam.

so the christian who killed his sister and her baby, also did that because of Islam ? :rolleyes:

Kathianne

03-06-2011, 07:03 AM

so the christian who killed his sister and her baby, also did that because of Islam ? :rolleyes:

Culture. The old eye for an eye. Like anyone else, you're missing the forest through the trees.

abso

03-06-2011, 12:53 PM

Culture. The old eye for an eye. Like anyone else, you're missing the forest through the trees.

that incident wasn't eye for an eye !!!, it wasnt revenge, the muslim man did nothing to him except marrying his sister, but you think that he killed his sister because muslim men would do the same and would kill their sisters if they married christians ???

so correct me if i am wrong, you mean, when a muslim man kill his sister for marrying christian, its because of his religion, but when a christian man kill his sister for marrying a muslim, its because of culture. :rolleyes:

seems that its not me who is justifying or searching for excuses for muslims, its you who is justifying and searching for excuses for christians.

Kathianne

03-06-2011, 01:08 PM

Abso, I read I think 4 versions of the story. I posted the one with the fewest editorializing adjectives. I just went to find one with more details, instead I found this first:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/261405/egypt-s-copts-suffer-more-attacks-nina-shea

Egypt’s Copts Suffer More Attacks
March 5, 2011 5:05 P.M.
By Nina Shea

Copts in Egypt are begging for Egyptian Armed Forces protection today after a Muslim mob of several thousand attacked their church in the village of Soul, about 30 kilometers from Cairo, last night. The Church of St. Mina and St. George was torched, and its clergy are unaccounted for. The fire department and security forces failed to respond to Coptic pleas for help during the arson attack.

According to a report from the Washington-based Coptic American Friendship Association, the mob, chanting “Allahu Akbar,” pulled down the church’s cross and detonated a handful of gas cylinders inside the structure. The ensuing fire destroyed the church and all its contents, including the sacred relics of centuries-old saints. It is reported that a romantic relationship between a Christian man and a Muslim woman, which sharia forbids, and the refusal of the woman’s father to kill her to restore the community’s “honor,” aroused the Muslim ire. An account of this incident is here. (I also received a message from a Coptic friend that this week members of the Muslim Brotherhood, shouting “Allahu Akbar,” stormed a Christian school on Thabit Street in downtown Asyut and attempted to take it over. Egyptian security forces, including an army unit, intervened and routed out the Brotherhood members. The school had been built by Presbyterian missionaries in the early 1900s, and is now directed by Presbyterian Pastor Naji. Christian leaders from this southern area expressed a deepening sense of insecurity as the Muslim Brotherhood emerges from the underground.)...

There are growing concerns that Egypt’s 10 million or so Coptic Christians are being targeted under the cloak of political chaos during these uncertain times. A friend reports that the local Egyptian police have abandoned their posts in the provinces and thus many churches no longer have armed guards protecting them as they did following the al-Qaeda-inspired church bombing of New Year’s Day in Alexandria. Egypt’s army is one of the largest recipients of U.S. military aid.

Back to Egyptian tradition:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/muslim-christian-clash-in-egypt-over-forbidden-relationship-49299/

...Violence erupted when it was discovered that a Coptic Christian man and a Muslim woman in the village of Soul were in a romantic relationship. The father of the Muslim woman was killed Friday by his cousin because he did not kill his daughter to maintain the family’s honor, according to Assyrian International News Agency (AINA).

The woman’s brother then killed his father’s cousin in revenge and then on Saturday a Muslim mob attacked St. Mina and St. George church and torched it.

A security official on Saturday confirmed with MENA news agency that at least two people were killed and the church was set on fire during the clash.

The Egyptian army, which has been maintaining security after President Hosni Mubarak was ousted, put out the fire and restored peace to the area.

It is not socially permissible for a Christian man and a Muslim woman to be in a romantic relationship in Egypt. And a Christian man can only marry a Muslim woman if he converts to Islam.

abso

03-06-2011, 04:09 PM

Kathianne

03-27-2011, 09:30 AM

Well it seems Abso will be gone, but this article from NYT points to what I feared from the beginning. Anyone that still is under the delusion that the new unrest in the ME is one of freedom, better pull their head out of the sand:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/islamist-group-is-rising-force-in-a-new-egypt-94057

Islamist group is rising force in a new Egypt

Michael Slackman, The New York Times, Updated: March 25, 2011 11:35 IST

Cairo: In post-revolutionary Egypt, where hope and confusion collide in the daily struggle to build a new nation, religion has emerged as a powerful political force, following an uprising that was based on secular ideals. The Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist group once banned by the state, is at the forefront, transformed into a tacit partner with the military government that many fear will thwart fundamental changes.

It is also clear that the young, educated secular activists who initially propelled the nonideological revolution are no longer the driving political force -- at least not at the moment.

As the best organized and most extensive opposition movement in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood was expected to have an edge in the contest for influence. But what surprises many is its link to a military that vilified it...

"We are all worried," said Amr Koura, 55, a television producer, reflecting the opinions of the secular minority. "The young people have no control of the revolution anymore. It was evident in the last few weeks when you saw a lot of bearded people taking charge. The youth are gone."
...

Gaffer

03-27-2011, 11:06 AM

Kathianne

04-05-2011, 08:08 PM

Yep, it's coming down to the radicals taking over Egypt. Gonna happen in all the other arab countries as well. They will all use democracy and freedom as the cause for uprisings to take down the dictators. Then the radicals will get control of the various parliaments that get established and each country will fall in line. It will then be up to the most powerful and influential country to gain supremacy over all. Then the caliphate is established. It's a very long term plan that will take many years. This is just the beginning.

Indeed. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110405/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_rising_islamists

Islamists look for gains in Egypt's freer politics
By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Hamza Hendawi, Associated Press 2 hrs 59 mins ago

CAIRO – Islamic hard-liners, some of them heavily suppressed under three decades of Hosni Mubarak's regime, are enthusiastically diving into Egypt's new freedoms, forming political parties to enter upcoming elections and raising alarm that they will try to lead the country into fundamentalist rule.

Some militants, taking advantage of a security vacuum, aren't waiting for the political process. They have attacked Christians and liquor stores, trying to impose their austere version of Islamic law in provincial towns.

The Islamists' newfound energy prompted the ruling military to warn on Monday that Egypt "will not be turned into Gaza or Iran."

...

While the Brotherhood has long been Egypt's best organized opposition movement, the Salafis are a new player in politics. Salafis are ultraconservatives, close to Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi interpretation of Islam and more radical than the Brotherhood. They seek to emulate the austerity of Islam's early days and oppose a wide range of practices they view as "un-Islamic" — rejecting the treatment of non-Muslims as citizens with equal rights as well as all forms of Western cultural influence.

Salafis traditionally stayed out of politics, rejecting democracy because it replaces rule by God's law with the law of man. The movement grew in recent years because it was tolerated and even encouraged by the Mubarak regime to counter the Muslim Brotherhood.

With Mubarak gone, the Salafis have abandoned their disdain for politics.

...

Gaffer

04-05-2011, 08:14 PM

The only thing that will stop egypt becoming an islamic theocracy would be if the military takes complete control and sets up one of its officers as dictator.

Kathianne

04-05-2011, 08:16 PM

The only thing that will stop egypt becoming an islamic theocracy would be if the military takes complete control and sets up one of its officers as dictator.

Seems they are sending out warnings, but truth is we'll have to see if the military leadership tends towards Iranian version or not.

Gaffer

04-05-2011, 08:23 PM

Seems they are sending out warnings, but truth is we'll have to see if the military leadership tends towards Iranian version or not.

Based on the reports I have read the military there seems to be more secular oriented. Why? I don't know. Would be something abso could maybe explain. At the same time, they don't seem to be too concerned about attacks on non-muslims. Maybe they just like the secular ideas of drinking and carousing.

Kathianne

06-28-2011, 04:53 AM

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-egypt-political-battle-20110627,0,4462222.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fnews%2Fnationworld% 2Fworld+%28L.A.+Times+-+World+News%29

I really am sorry to say, "I told you so..." really. I wish it weren't what it is.

Egypt's pro-democracy activists feel their grip slipping
Opposition groups seek to postpone September elections amid fears that the more unified Muslim Brotherhood and members of the former regime will gain too much influence.

By Jeffrey Fleishman, Los Angeles Times

June 27, 2011

Reporting from Cairo

Sensing the revolution that overthrew President Hosni Mubarak is slipping from their grasp, activists and opposition groups are pressuring the ruling military council to postpone Egypt's elections in September amid fears that Islamists and members of the former regime will gain too much power.

The attempt by fledgling political parties to win more time to organize coincides with a renewed push to draft a new constitution before the parliamentary elections so that no political bloc, especially the Muslim Brotherhood, will have unchecked influence to set the laws of the land.

The pressing concern among independents and secularists is that the Brotherhood, the nation's largest and best-organized party, may win about 25% of the seats in parliament and control even more through a coalition. This could give the organization the power to infuse the new constitution with conservative Islamic ideals to limit rights for women and non-Muslims.Really? Who'd have thought?

"The Brotherhood is tyrannical in its opinions and views, and I think they will take the side of the Islamist businessmen who fund it and have strict Islamic ideologies," said Khalid Sayed, a member of the Jan. 25 Youth Coalition. "Whatever constitution they might form would not fulfill the demands of Egyptians for civil rights and democracy."

The other worry is that members of the former ruling National Democratic Party will run as independents or merge with new parties. Mubarak, his sons and his Cabinet ministers are facing corruption trials, but many businessmen and tycoons at the core of the NDP still have the clout to manipulate clans and regional leaders to deliver votes from the Nile Delta to the southern deserts.

"It's a rotten policy," said Mamdouh Hamza, an engineer and longtime dissident who is guiding many young activists. "The Muslim Brotherhood and the former NDP members could win 90% of the vote if elections are held in September. That means the real revolutionary powers and the silent majority will get nothing."Again, who would've thought?

Hamza's math may be too generous to the Brotherhood and holdover NDP politicians, but it indicates that burgeoning political parties, some of them lacking the 5,000 required signatures to register, cannot compete against more entrenched forces.

His passion also reveals that the revolution that toppled Mubarak in February is an unfinished battle among secularists, clerics, the old political guard and emerging players with pretty phrases and little experience. The country that inspired the Arab world with a whirlwind 18-day revolt is in the midst of a messy drama to reinvent itself after nearly 30 years of repressive rule.

Activists and liberals argue on talk shows for keeping the revolution vigorous and pure. But the sound of unity that once echoed through Tahrir Square has splintered into a discordant mix of power plays and self-interests.

"The liberals have failed to form a true ideological party that knows the street language of the people," said Shady Ghazali Harb, a leader of the revolution who has formed his own party.

Evolving alongside this clamor is the stirring of a new political Islam. Young members of the Muslim Brotherhood and more radical Salafist sects are increasingly disenchanted with the rhetoric and ideologies of their elders. The youth are breaking away to form their own parties and factions in a quest for an identity that better speaks to the democratic aspirations of the uprisings sweeping the region.

The nation's political imbalance has led interim Prime Minister Essam Sharaf to call for a delay of the September poll. It was a move to calm activists and political parties calling for nationwide protests July 8 and seeking to collect 15 million signatures on a petition to support drafting a constitution before elections.

The military council appears to want to quickly hand over the government to elected officials while retaining a large degree of power behind the scenes. More than 77% of Egyptian voters in a March referendum agreed to hold early elections but to only amend the current constitution, which would later be rewritten by a parliamentary committee. To undo the results of the referendum would lead to questions about the military's authority and why it vetoed Egyptians' first exercise in real democracy...

Hello all those that want 'to stand up to tyranny' in US, be careful what you wish for...

Gaffer

06-28-2011, 09:28 AM

It's going to get worse as the brotherhood gains more power. The Copt's are already under attack. Even a rumor of a church being built brought out a mob with bulldozers.

Secularists and commies will get the same thing they got in iran back in 79. Once again the left will fail to achieve a communist state in a muslim country. Talk about carter 2.

Kathianne

06-29-2011, 11:30 PM

the only question is how worse will it get?

http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-u-resume-formal-muslim-brotherhood-contacts-025327189.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has decided to resume formal contacts with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, a senior U.S. official said on Wednesday, in a step that reflects the Islamist group's growing political weight but that is almost certain to upset Israel and its U.S. backers.

"The political landscape in Egypt has changed, and is changing," said the senior official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "It is in our interests to engage with all of the parties that are competing for parliament or the presidency."

The official sought to portray the shift as a subtle evolution rather than a dramatic change in Washington's stance toward the Brotherhood, a group founded in 1928 that seeks to promote its conservative vision of Islam in society.

Under the previous policy, U.S. diplomats were allowed to deal with Brotherhood members of parliament who had won seats as independents -- a diplomatic fiction that allowed them to keep lines of communication open.

Where U.S. diplomats previously dealt only with group members in their role as parliamentarians, a policy the official said had been in place since 2006, they will now deal directly with low-level Brotherhood party officials....

there really are no limits to where the administration will sell out, none.

Gaffer

06-30-2011, 09:00 AM

The MB is the grandfather organization of almost all the terrorist groups out of the ME. And our govt wants to sit down and talk with them? Making deals with a fundamentalist group who's religion teaches it's okay to lie to infidels for the benefit of allah.

Just like in the 30's we are having the appeasement of evil and the birth of the caliphate. The only question is, who will emerge supreme, sunni or shia? There's a BIG religious war coming in the next 20 years.

jimnyc

11-23-2011, 11:50 AM

abso

11-23-2011, 12:23 PM

Abso - just saw you online and it made me think of the news last night. First off, hope you and the family are ok...

But what's up in Egypt? More riots and more killings this week. Is there a power play going on? Maybe you can best explain it to us?

thanks jim, i am fine, hope you are ok too.

the people got tired of the military supreme council, they ignored many of the people's requests, just like Mubarak, although they sometimes try to do what the people want, but at many other times they just force their opinion on the people.

the riots started last friday, with the families of the dead and injured people in 25 jan revolution, at first they were just camping there, they have some demands related to the martyrs fund, they want to control it, i don't have much information about their other demadns, then in friday the police along with the army tried to force the families out of the square, when the people heared about that, they decided to go there, everyone is now very aggressive towards the army and the police, so they never waste any chance to have a clash with them, they went there, then the real problem started, thousands of people who decided to stay in the square, blocking the movement of cars and practically paralyzing the life of the people living there, and also causing major traffic issues in cairo because Tahrir square is a main square in cairo and many bus lines in our transport system passes through there, so for people to camp there and close the square, thats a major problem for other people.

the real problem then started, i don't know who started it, maybe the police with its very wrong methods in finishing a demonstration, or maybe the military, or maybe the people themselfs started it, but anyway, violence started, police forces along with army police attacked the people and the people also attacked, more than 40 to 50 people were killed and over than 1000 people were injured.

i got tired from hearing about the stories and what happened, everyone has his own story, so i decided to go there and see myself, but this week was my mid-term exams, i will finish tomorrow, and i intend to go to Tahrir Square after the exam.

i just hope that i dont get shot when i go there tomorrow, getting shot by my own country's police or army is not a part of my to-do list.

by the way, for now the people in the square have increased their demands, they now demand the resignation of the military supreme council and that they relinquish control of the country.

jimnyc

11-23-2011, 12:37 PM

Thunderknuckles

11-23-2011, 12:56 PM

Yikes, it's one thing to have police keeping things civil, and I can even see some clashes with them. But when the military starts killing their own citizens, there is a problem. Sounds like things are seriously out of control at the Square. Be careful if you go there!

I honestly haven't read or watched enough on this situation yet, but is the military effectively running the country right now?
The military has been in control since Mubarak was ousted. The issue now, and I think Abso already touched on it, is that the Military Supreme Council has yet to hand over control to civilians and the people have have run out of patience. This was a concern we all shared when the military took "interim" control. Would they relinquish it? The answer to this question will be made clear over the next few days/weeks. The military has since stated that they will begin the transition. Let's hope for the best.

jimnyc

11-23-2011, 01:16 PM

The military has been in control since Mubarak was ousted. The issue now, and I think Abso already touched on it, is that the Military Supreme Council has yet to hand over control to civilians and the people have have run out of patience. This was a concern we all shared when the military took "interim" control. Would they relinquish it? The answer to this question will be made clear over the next few days/weeks. The military has since stated that they will begin the transition. Let's hope for the best.

I can understand the military intervention a bit in helping run the country until new leaders can be installed, but I wouldn't support them shooting citizens. I think they would be best with some sort of democracy... Anyone know the latest with the Muslim Brotherhood? If they're trying to take over, THAT'S where the military should intervene!

ConHog

11-23-2011, 01:23 PM

I hope that Abso's cousin's wife is faithful to him so that Abso doesn't have to participate in an honor killing.

Thunderknuckles

11-23-2011, 01:28 PM

I hope that Abso's cousin's wife is faithful to him so that Abso doesn't have to participate in an honor killing.
Was that really necessary?
You know it will lead to nothing but a pissing match so why bother?

ConHog

11-23-2011, 02:27 PM

Was that really necessary?
You know it will lead to nothing but a pissing match so why bother?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUFQ2ECfPOw

:laugh2:

fj1200

11-23-2011, 02:29 PM

... they have some demands related to the martyrs fund, they want to control it...

by the way, for now the people in the square have increased their demands, they now demand the resignation of the military supreme council and that they relinquish control of the country.

Control is a good thing. You should be demanding more economic freedom and private property rights if you want to improve the lot of your countrymen.

abso

11-24-2011, 11:15 AM

Yikes, it's one thing to have police keeping things civil, and I can even see some clashes with them. But when the military starts killing their own citizens, there is a problem. Sounds like things are seriously out of control at the Square. Be careful if you go there!

I honestly haven't read or watched enough on this situation yet, but is the military effectively running the country right now?

yes, the one who controls the country now is Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, He is the commander-in-chief of the Egyptian Armed Forces and the Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, the de facto head of state of Egypt.

the army denies the charges of killing people, always saying that the army never fired a bullet at the egyptian people, while that maybe correct, but for the army to allow the police to act with such cruelty, that is a problem as you say, the army is in charge now, Tantawi can order the police and control it as he see fit, so for him to just say that the army didnt fire, that doesn't mean that the police didn't fire too, he must control the interior ministry, their cruelty will never be tolerated by the people again, if the situation evolves any further than it already has, maybe it will be the dawn of civil war in egypt.