If govt doesn't file for stay of Obamacare-Unconst ruling,are they in contempt of Ct?

[Little-Acorn]

The District Court in Florida has declared that ALL of Obamacare is unconstitutional, and is void.

The govt can now apply (maybe to an appeals court) for a quick stay of the District Court's ruling, so they can keep implementing Obamacare while the cases work their way up to the Supremes.

If they don't file for that stay, but keep implementing the present parts of Obamacare (say, they keep forcing people to keep 25-year-old "children" on their policies against the policyholder's desires, for example)... does that mean the Obama administration is operating in contempt of the court?

Can Judge Vinson then find that the administration official(s) responsible for forcing people to let the 25-yr-olds stay on their policies, is in contempt of his clear order throwing out Obamacare... and throw that official(s) in jail for contempt of court?

...all the way up to the top?

[Kathianne]

The District Court in Florida has declared that ALL of Obamacare is unconstitutional, and is void.

The govt can now apply (maybe to an appeals court) for a quick stay of the District Court's ruling, so they can keep implementing Obamacare while the cases work their way up to the Supremes.

If they don't file for that stay, but keep implementing the present parts of Obamacare (say, they keep forcing people to keep 25-year-old "children" on their policies against the policyholder's desires, for example)... does that mean the Obama administration is operating in contempt of the court?

I don't know, but it's interesting that the severability option was negated by the administration, (defendants) themselves:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-turn/2011/01/left_unreasoned_and_unprepared.html

Lots of links:


Posted at 6:32 PM ET, 01/31/2011
Left unprepared for ObamaCare ruling
By Jennifer Rubin

Liberal pundits who have consulted liberal law professors about liberals' great achievement -- ObamaCare -- are pronouncing the ruling by Judge Roger Vinson to be much to do about nothing. The ruling is. . . um. . . thinking of a case liberals hate. . . um. . . just like Bush v. Gore ! (Except it has nothing to do with the Equal Protection Clause or any other aspect of that case.) It is, we are told, "curious," "odd," or "unconventional."

These are complaints, not legal arguments. And they suggest that the left was totally unprepared for the constitutional attack on their beloved handiwork. After all, the recent mocking by the left of conservatives' reverence for the Constitution suggests they are mystified that a 200-year old document could get in the way of their historic achievement. They are truly nonplussed, and so they vamp, not with reasoned analysis but with an outpouring of adjectives.

Liberals are particularly perturbed by Judge Vinson's ruling on severability, the determination as to whether the individual mandate is so central to the law as to make the law unrecognizable and unenforceable without it. But here, the left has only the administration and the Democratic Congress to blame. From the opinion (the defendants are the Obama officials):


Having determined that the individual mandate exceeds Congress' power under the Commerce Clause, and cannot be saved by application of the Necessary and Proper Clause, the next question is whether it is severable from the remainder of the Act. In considering this issue, I note that the defendants have acknowledged that the individual mandate and the Act's health insurance reforms, including the guaranteed issue and community rating, will rise or fall together as these reforms "cannot be severed from the [individual mandate]."

Oops. Not some crazy judge, but the administration was the source of the notion that the individual mandate can't be severed from the rest of the law.

But it's not just the administration; it seems Congress did its part to contribute to the invalidation of the whole statute. Judge Vinson observes that "the Act does not contain a 'severability clause,' which is commonly included in legislation to provide that if any part or provision is held invalid, then the rest of the statute will not be affected." He observes that this defect is not necessarily determinative. However, "The lack of a severability clause in this case is significant because one had been included in an earlier version of the Act, but it was removed in the bill that subsequently became law." Oh, now, there's a problem...

[Gaffer]

Maybe if they hadn't kept it secret until the last minute and then rushed it through they might have noticed this little missing part. 2700 pages of trash.

[Little-Acorn]

So, if the Obamanites don't file for a stay, and keep implementing the current parts of Obamacare, can Judge Vinson start hauling them into court and throwing them in jail for contempt of court?

[Gaffer]

So, if the Obamanites don't file for a stay, and keep implementing the current parts of Obamacare, can Judge Vinson start hauling them into court and throwing them in jail for contempt of court?

I hope so.

[Psychoblues]

I see some sickness right here in this thread. I can only hope that the Patients Rights And Affordable Care Act will cover it for you guys. I've got my own problems as well but so far the VA is doing well for me even if it is a shame that I can't get better healthcare that I hear is available via the Patients Rights And Afforable Care Act. Isn't all that healthcare from private sources? I heard for 2 years that it was going to be all government maybe like the VA or the Health departments. Was somebody being deliberately misleading?

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

I heard for 2 years that it was going to be all government maybe like the VA or the Health departments. Was somebody being deliberately misleading?

Psychoblues

That's the left's ultimate goal...Obamacare was the first step toward it. Those assholes are wringing their hands and having wet dreams in anticipation of steering all the money spent on healthcare through DC. After they've blown it on saving the SF marsh rat and a myriad of other pet projects, good luck getting what ever care you need.

[Psychoblues]

That's the left's ultimate goal...Obamacare was the first step toward it. Those assholes are wringing their hands and having wet dreams in anticipation of steering all the money spent on healthcare through DC. After they've blown it on saving the SF marsh rat and a myriad of other pet projects, good luck getting what ever care you need.

Well, Mm, you think what you want and it really is just thinking that you have and no facts to back it up but I just can't go with all the hate and fearmongering about this law. Whatever you may think of the law you simply must understand and accept that our healthcare system is almost hopelessly broken. I remain convinced of the accuracy of the CBO forecasts in both financials and quality of care considerations.

I have no clue where this country might be without it's government. Actually, yes I do know. We would not be a country, freedom and liberty would certainly only be nothing else to lose, between lawlessness and disease our population would be wiped out probably in less than a century, the infrastructure would completey collapse wrecking entire population centers, etc., etc. I don't want that for my grand children.

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

Well, Mm, you think what you want and it really is just thinking that you have and no facts to back it up but I just can't go with all the hate and fearmongering about this law. Whatever you may think of the law you simply must understand and accept that our healthcare system is almost hopelessly broken. I remain convinced of the accuracy of the CBO forecasts in both financials and quality of care considerations.

I have no clue where this country might be without it's government. Actually, yes I do know. We would not be a country, freedom and liberty would certainly only be nothing else to lose, between lawlessness and disease our population would be wiped out probably in less than a century, the infrastructure would completey collapse wrecking entire population centers, etc., etc. I don't want that for my grand children.

Psychoblues

Do I really need to post the video of Obama saying he wants to see us wind up with single payer healthcare for you to believe it? As for the CBO forecast, remember the old addage "garbage in, garbage out". They were give numbers of pure fantasy to arrive at their conclusion of pure fantasy.

As for the drivel about not having a government, who in hell is calling for that? All most of us are asking for is one that acts like stewards of the money they take away from us and one that operates within the confines of the Constitution.

[Psychoblues]

Do I really need to post the video of Obama saying he wants to see us wind up with single payer healthcare for you to believe it? As for the CBO forecast, remember the old addage "garbage in, garbage out". They were give numbers of pure fantasy to arrive at their conclusion of pure fantasy.

As for the drivel about not having a government, who in hell is calling for that? All most of us are asking for is one that acts like stewards of the money they take away from us and one that operates within the confines of the Constitution.

Yes, Mm. I would like to see that video as well as that legislation. I've never heard Obama support single payer other than tacit discussions during the legislative process. I would LOVE to have single payer healthcare in this country but what does that have to do with Government healthcare like the VA or the Health Departments? Single payer, universal coverage, public options all are more attractive to me than what we have but I'm not willing to give up simply because it's not perfect in my eyesight.

Listening to most rightwingers and especially libertarians one can only conclude that they resent and distrust government and even each other in the government. What a damned hoot!!!!!!! I think our government is doing very well as the stewards of what is left of a bankrupt economy exacerbated by 2 unpaid for wars, tax cuts that have never been reconciled, devastating freemarket collapse and infrastructure failure, etc. It's like we had a radio in the White House for 8 years and somebody forgot to turn the damned thing on.

There are many sins against our Constitution in the last decade, Mm. And I, maybe like you, would like to see them all prosecuted to the full extent of the congress and the law.

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

Yes, Mm. I would like to see that video as well as that legislation. I've never heard Obama support single payer other than tacit discussions during the legislative process. I would LOVE to have single payer healthcare in this country but what does that have to do with Government healthcare like the VA or the Health Departments? Single payer, universal coverage, public options all are more attractive to me than what we have but I'm not willing to give up simply because it's not perfect in my eyesight.

Listening to most rightwingers and especially libertarians one can only conclude that they resent and distrust government and even each other in the government. What a damned hoot!!!!!!! I think our government is doing very well as the stewards of what is left of a bankrupt economy exacerbated by 2 unpaid for wars, tax cuts that have never been reconciled, devastating freemarket collapse and infrastructure failure, etc. It's like we had a radio in the White House for 8 years and somebody forgot to turn the damned thing on.

There are many sins against our Constitution in the last decade, Mm. And I, maybe like you, would like to see them all prosecuted to the full extent of the congress and the law.

Psychoblues

Queue it up... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE

[texastom]

Yes, Mm. I would like to see that video...

Psychoblues


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE

[Missileman]

I think our government is doing very well as the stewards of what is left of a bankrupt economy exacerbated by 2 unpaid for wars, tax cuts that have never been reconciled, devastating freemarket collapse and infrastructure failure, etc.

You can't be stupid enough to believe that the feds have been careful with our money...or can you?

[Psychoblues]

He says there that he is a proponent of single payer and universal healthcare. He never made it part of his policy. That speech was before the AFL-CIO people that have maintained good healthcare for decades but at tremendous costs to them and their employers. Both of them know that something has to be done and the most attractive of their choices is single payer, universal care and public options for healthcare. All of these are American win/win solutions.

There is a lot to not like about the Patients Rights And Affordable Costs Act and the way I have it figured the lack of any of the three above mentioned payment systems is the biggest thing to not like about it.

Yes, most people can't balance a $500 checking account. Finding major fuckups in the federal systems from DoD to food stamps would be no surprise to me. System improvements is a fluid operation and requires constant vigilance. Even then, shit happens. I can remember the chicken littles of the 50's running around with their "the sky is falling" bullshit and it made a significant impression on me. Fuck a damned chicken little. I have things to do.

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

He says there that he is a proponent of single payer and universal healthcare. He never made it part of his policy.

On the contrary...Obamacare will launch us toward single payer if it's allowed to stand. It is set up to put the Health Insurance companies out of business.

[Psychoblues]

On the contrary...Obamacare will launch us toward single payer if it's allowed to stand. It is set up to put the Health Insurance companies out of business.

You are wrong as President Barack Hussein Obama has never made single payer any part of his stated policies but I do hope and millions others hope that he does and if not single payer then universal care or public options. The freaking health insurance companies sure as hell haven't held up their end of the American bargain for as long as I've had any business with them. Look what a mess we have now. All of this falls squarely on the backs of the sickness and death profiteers. If the Healthcare industry goes public or non profit it will not be as any practises of President Obama or anyone other than their own selfish and hateful and non-caring for their patients selves. They've had years to strut their stuff. It just ain't working out for the rest of us.

Psychoblues

[logroller]

On the contrary...Obamacare will launch us toward single payer if it's allowed to stand. It is set up to put the Health Insurance companies out of business.

Yea, and this would be a bad thing?


You are wrong as President Barack Hussein Obama has never made single payer any part of his stated policies but I do hope and millions others hope that he does and if not single payer then universal care or public options. The freaking health insurance companies sure as hell haven't held up their end of the American bargain for as long as I've had any business with them. Look what a mess we have now. All of this falls squarely on the backs of the sickness and death profiteers. If the Healthcare industry goes public or non profit it will not be as any practises of President Obama or anyone other than their own selfish and hateful and non-caring for their patients selves. They've had years to strut their stuff. It just ain't working out for the rest of us.

Psychoblues

Amen brother. Unfortunately the current legislation, as is, doesn't solve the healthcare problems either; so change, we still need.

[fj1200]

Whatever you may think of the law you simply must understand and accept that our healthcare system is almost hopelessly broken. I remain convinced of the accuracy of the CBO forecasts in both financials and quality of care considerations.

What is the track record of the CBO? I think it more appropriate to understand the government's role in BREAKING our HC system; deregulate NOW. ;)


I have no clue where this country might be without it's government.

Who's making that argument or did we just need a strawman appearance?

[fj1200]

I think our government is doing very well as the stewards of what is left of a bankrupt economy exacerbated by 2 unpaid for wars, tax cuts that have never been reconciled, devastating freemarket collapse and infrastructure failure, etc.

Oh brother, did your dog die to during that time?

I apologize for bringing back those memories if so ;)

[fj1200]

Yea, and this would be a bad thing?

Do you like being able to mitigate risk?

[logroller]

Do you like being able to mitigate risk?

Of course, wouldn't universal healthcare mitigate risk? The issue is rather we should have a choice in doing so. Foundational liberty would indicate yes, though I contend the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness shouldn't be construed as independent of the public good; where the right to not mitigate my risk shall enjoy the same protections as those who do. If I don't have insurance, not because of financial insolvence, but of mere choice, I still enjoy the benefits of a healthcare system funded in no insignificant degree by those who have insurance, both public and private. If it came down to denying care to someone without insurance, I'd agree their risk wasn't mitigated; but that isn't the way the system works-- they still get the care, they just get stuck with a bill that the rest of us may end up paying for anyways. (I believe half of all bankruptcies have experienced a serious health problem, not to imply this alone was a contributing factor)

In conclusion, govt already mitigates the risk; private insurance serves as supplement to those services, as they mitigate their risk at the expense of the general public. Why should private insurance reap the lion's share of funding, when the lambs are left to the gov't to care for?

[fj1200]

Of course, wouldn't universal healthcare mitigate risk? The issue is rather we should have a choice in doing so. Foundational liberty would indicate yes, though I contend the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness shouldn't be construed as independent of the public good; where the right to not mitigate my risk shall enjoy the same protections as those who do. If I don't have insurance, not because of financial insolvence, but of mere choice, I still enjoy the benefits of a healthcare system funded in no insignificant degree by those who have insurance, both public and private. If it came down to denying care to someone without insurance, I'd agree their risk wasn't mitigated; but that isn't the way the system works-- they still get the care, they just get stuck with a bill that the rest of us may end up paying for anyways. (I believe half of all bankruptcies have experienced a serious health problem, not to imply this alone was a contributing factor)

In conclusion, govt already mitigates the risk; private insurance serves as supplement to those services, as they mitigate their risk at the expense of the general public. Why should private insurance reap the lion's share of funding, when the lambs are left to the gov't to care for?

No, it would pay a medical bill. Is that really the basis we should be using to justify more and more regulation of HC delivery and the creation of an ever increasing entitlement program? Grocery stores reap the lion's share of food revenue in this country but the state is responsible for caring for the lambs via food stamps.

[Little-Acorn]

Judge Vinson said in his ruling that since Obamacare is unconstitutional, his ruling is an order to the government to stop implementing it.

If the govt appeals to a higher court (Circuit Court of Appeals, or the Supreme Court)... AND if they apply for a stay of execution of the District court's ruling, AND if the higher court grants that stay, then the govt can keep implementing Obamacare until a final hearing.

I have heard no reports that the govt has appealed (though I'm sure they will), or that they have filed for a stay.

A poster on another borad has pointed out that there is a Federal law saying that, if a court throws out a law, there is a two-week grace period in which the govt can keep enforcing the law. After that, they must stop, unless a court issues a stay or overrules the first ruling.

So, in two weeks, if any insurance company in those 26 states announces that 25-year-olds are not allowed on their parents' policy, they are acting legally, and the Fed govt can do nothing to force them to do otherwise.

Whether that situation continues, depends on what higher courts say in the future - either regarding a stay, or an appeal of the case itself.

[Missileman]

You are wrong as President Barack Hussein Obama has never made single payer any part of his stated policies but I do hope and millions others hope that he does and if not single payer then universal care or public options. The freaking health insurance companies sure as hell haven't held up their end of the American bargain for as long as I've had any business with them. Look what a mess we have now. All of this falls squarely on the backs of the sickness and death profiteers. If the Healthcare industry goes public or non profit it will not be as any practises of President Obama or anyone other than their own selfish and hateful and non-caring for their patients selves. They've had years to strut their stuff. It just ain't working out for the rest of us.

Psychoblues

Obamacare as it stands right now WILL end up becoming a single-payer system because the insurance companies WILL close their doors. They are being asked to provide something that they were never intended to provide...coverage for pre-existing conditions. It's a no-win situation for them. If it's a sound policy, then why not apply it to auto and life insurance?

As for single-payer, ask a Canadian how it's working out for them.

[Psychoblues]

Obamacare as it stands right now WILL end up becoming a single-payer system because the insurance companies WILL close their doors. They are being asked to provide something that they were never intended to provide...coverage for pre-existing conditions. It's a no-win situation for them. If it's a sound policy, then why not apply it to auto and life insurance?

As for single-payer, ask a Canadian how it's working out for them.

I won't debate apples and oranges with you, Mm. Health insurance is not like and has never been like any other. I can only HOPE for single payer or the others I've already told you about. Our system is freaking wrecked in the worst way. For all practical purposes many of the American health statistics rate higher in some 3rd world countries.

I have many Canadian friends. They are not coming across the border in any significant numbers to be seen in American hospitals and clinics. Other than with rare exception they seem to be content with their system. See, that's the difference between them and us. Although they may only be content and not loudly jubilant with their system we HATE about everything about our own. That may not mean much to you but by God it means plenty to this old man.

Psychoblues

[NightTrain]

See, that's the difference between them and us. Although they may only be content and not loudly jubilant with their system we HATE about everything about our own.

Psychoblues

Every Canadian I've ever talked to says their healthcare system sucks. I have yet to speak to a Brit that has anything positive to say about their system, either.

My health care coverage for my kids and I is outstanding. Great coverage with timely access to the best medical care in the world.

"We" don't hate it, you do not speak for me or anyone I know. In case the obvious has once again eluded you, the vast majority on this very board is against it.

[Psychoblues]

Every Canadian I've ever talked to says their healthcare system sucks. I have yet to speak to a Brit that has anything positive to say about their system, either.

I haven't heard any such thing from my Canadian friends and contacts and the clinics and hospitals along the US/Canadian border are not reporting any stampedes of Canadians looking for American healthcare. In fact, exactly the opposite is occurring. Even the Holy Grail of the teabagger movement, Sara Palin, admits to having seeked out Canadian medical treatment for herself and her children. I haven't heard any Brits complain either, or German, or Japanese, or Koreans or anyone that has experience in a more efficient system and and can competently compare the US system to it. I could say a lot more but this will do for that right now.

My health care coverage for my kids and I is outstanding. Great coverage with timely access to the best medical care in the world.

I'm perfectly happy for you. I wish everyone were as happy as you with their healthcare system and options. But the majority, like me, are not. And I'll tell you something about that timely access and best in the world thing you're dreaming about. It's a simple thing, I think Loretta Lynn had a song about it. If you've never had a T-Bone steak, peanut butter tastes just fine.

"We" don't hate it, you do not speak for me or anyone I know. In case the obvious has once again eluded you, the vast majority on this very board is against it.

Well "we" do hate it and that would be me and about 62% of Americans in the latest polls. I've never pretended to speak for you and probably would not even if I could. Certainly I've known ever since I came here that most and sometims all here disagree with me on about everything. I like it that way, or have you not noticed, speaking of the obvious eluding anybody?!?! These disagreements challenge me, make my old mind crank up a little bit, maybe stave off some alzheimers, get me more prepared for my Democratic Party Executive Committee meetings. I don't take much here seriously but occasionally I spot trends that I do better research on and report that to the State Committee. Stuff like that WBC thing you keep playing like a child on. The State Committee and the Democratic Party have fully and publically condemned the actions of the Phelps family and any others that would resort to such loathsome behavior in the execution af ANY right to protest for ANY reason. I haven't heard a word from the Republicans on that one and based on what I see in my thread there I don't anticipate seeing much in the future.

Psychoblues




Psychoblues

[Missileman]

I haven't heard any such thing from my Canadian friends and contacts and the clinics and hospitals along the US/Canadian border are not reporting any stampedes of Canadians looking for American healthcare. In fact, exactly the opposite is occurring. Even the Holy Grail of the teabagger movement, Sara Palin, admits to having seeked out Canadian medical treatment for herself and her children. I haven't heard any Brits complain either, or German, or Japanese, or Koreans or anyone that has experience in a more efficient system and and can competently compare the US system to it. I could say a lot more but this will do for that right now.


Do you EVER get a story right? Maybe you just like making up shit and trying to pass it off as fact.

Sarah Palin was taken by her parents to a hospital in Canada when she was a child. The hospital in Whitehorse, Canada was the closest hospital to the village of Skagway where she grew up.

At this point, I'm inclined to think that the only Canadian you know is the bottle of Canadian Club you crawled out of to post your lies.

[Psychoblues]

Do you EVER get a story right? Maybe you just like making up shit and trying to pass it off as fact.

Sarah Palin was taken by her parents to a hospital in Canada when she was a child. The hospital in Whitehorse, Canada was the closest hospital to the village of Skagway where she grew up.

At this point, I'm inclined to think that the only Canadian you know is the bottle of Canadian Club you crawled out of to post your lies.

Well damn, Mm. She exxagerates so damned much I can never tell when she's telling the truth or just shitting her rather clueless base. Didn't someone say that she killed a wild Indian with her bear hands and ate his still beating heart while his wife and children watched in horror? That's one tuff bitch, my friend.

Psychoblues

[fj1200]

For all practical purposes many of the American health statistics rate higher in some 3rd world countries.

Such as?

[Psychoblues]

Such as?

How many do you want, cowgirl? For starters lets look at Chile, #35 in the world for life expectancy according to National Center for Health Statistics, Cuba # 37 and the good ol' USofA #42.

The World Health Organization ranks the USofA 72nd in overall level of health from a field of 191 nations.

The CIA Word Factbook reports the USofA ranking 41st in the world for lowest infant mortality and 46th in the world for highest life expectancy.

On a sidenote, in 2001 46.2% of all bankruptcies were due to healthcare expenses. By 2007 that number had risen to 62.1%. This is unprecedented at any time or place in history. I've know we were in helathcare crises since about 1986 but I had no idea really how bad it really is. Is this the kind of world we want to live in? Maybe you. I can't afford it. And don't give me those right wing talking points, fj. We've probably been over them before.

Psychoblues

[actsnoblemartin]

two questions about healthcare

why is it so god damn expensive that no one can afford, and why are hospitals making 100,000 errors per year?

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=546&q=hospitals+make+100%2C000+errors+per+year&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.howtosurviveyourhospitalvisit.com/

1.5 million medication errors wow!

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/14/why-does-us-health-care-cost-so-much-part-i/

interesting article about

The graph below tells a compact story of United States health spending relative to that of other nations.

Shown on the horizontal axis is the gross domestic product per capita in 2006. The vertical axis represents 2006 health spending per capita. The data points in the graph represent two dozen developed countries that are members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (O.E.C.D.).

[actsnoblemartin]

http://www.huliq.com/50811/socialized-medicine-pros-and-cons

The Harvard School of Public Health and Harris Interactive have conducted a poll over the issue of Socialized Medicine. More than 2,000 people were asked their opinion about this kind of health care. The results are dubious.
Socialized Medicine

First of all, about 67% of the questioned had a good notion of the term, about 30 were not quite sure of the right meaning, and the rest just didn't know or didn't answer that question.

[Missileman]

Well damn, Mm. She exxagerates so damned much I can never tell when she's telling the truth or just shitting her rather clueless base. Didn't someone say that she killed a wild Indian with her bear hands and ate his still beating heart while his wife and children watched in horror? That's one tuff bitch, my friend.

Psychoblues

I see...you make something up and it's Palin's fault.

[Nukeman]

two questions about healthcare

why is it so god damn expensive that no one can afford, and why are hospitals making 100,000 errors per year?

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=546&q=hospitals+make+100%2C000+errors+per+year&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.howtosurviveyourhospitalvisit.com/

1.5 million medication errors wow!

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/14/why-does-us-health-care-cost-so-much-part-i/

interesting article about

The graph below tells a compact story of United States health spending relative to that of other nations.

Shown on the horizontal axis is the gross domestic product per capita in 2006. The vertical axis represents 2006 health spending per capita. The data points in the graph represent two dozen developed countries that are members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (O.E.C.D.).

Martin there are over 150 million hospital visists to the ER and inpatient stays (average 4 days). Now out of that there were 36 million inpatient stays of average 4 days with medications being given at least 4 times a day for each patient and also each patient receiving multiple medications. So for simplicity sake lets say they each receive 3 meds 4 times a day times for days that equals

1 billion 728 million doses prescribed and administer on the INPATIENTS. Now we need to add to this the number of ER visists as well which were over 118 million last year with an average of 4 doses of medication to stabilize and treat that adds another 472 million medication doses for a grand total of

2 billion 200 million doses of medication

And you really have to ask why there are 1.5 million errors??? that is an error rate of .00006% let me see that type of accuracy in any other profesion out there..

Is the healthcare industry perfect?? NO! Can it be better?? YES! would I trade ours for the socialist style of other countries?? HELL NO!! those types of systems may work for countries that have fewer people than we have in one state, but they will not work on the large scale that is needed in the US.

[fj1200]

interesting article about

The graph below tells a compact story of United States health spending relative to that of other nations.

Shown on the horizontal axis is the gross domestic product per capita in 2006. The vertical axis represents 2006 health spending per capita. The data points in the graph represent two dozen developed countries that are members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (O.E.C.D.).

We've certainly blown past any economies of scale there haven't we?

[fj1200]

How many do you want, cowgirl? For starters lets look at Chile, #35 in the world for life expectancy according to National Center for Health Statistics, Cuba # 37 and the good ol' USofA #42.

The World Health Organization ranks the USofA 72nd in overall level of health from a field of 191 nations.

The CIA Word Factbook reports the USofA ranking 41st in the world for lowest infant mortality and 46th in the world for highest life expectancy.

It's a shame that life expectancy doesn't show the whole picture regarding HC:


Broad population metrics, such as life expectancy, are affected by behavior. Our lower life expectancy is not attributable to poor U.S. health care. It stems from the higher U.S. rate of homicides and the death rate from transportation accidents.

In their book "The Business of Health," Robert Ohsfeldt and John Schneider explain that the U.S. homicide rate of 7.3 per 100,000 population is eight times the rate in France. The U.S. death rate from transportation accidents is also higher than in other countries. When life expectancy data are adjusted for differences in homicide and transportation death rates, U.S. life expectancy is slightly higher than for all other countries.

U.S. health-care expenditures per capita are much higher than in France, but that spending results in access to high-quality care and the latest medical advances. In terms of quality indicators, such as five-year age-adjusted survival rates for almost all cancers, the United States has significantly higher survival rates than France.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/25/AR2009092503391.html

More from Messr.s Ohsfeldt and Schneider:


1. The top chart above (data here) shows both: a) unadjusted life expectancies for the U.S. and other OECD countries, and b) standardized life expectancies which are adjusted for the effects of premature death resulting from non-health-related fatal injuries. For unadjusted life expectancy, the U.S. ranks #14 out of 16 countries, but for the adjusted standardized life expectancy the U.S. ranks #1.

2. The bottom chart displays five-year age-adjusted cancer survival rates for the U.S. and selected European countries, showing that the U.S. has the best record for five-year survival rates for six different cancers. In some cases the differences are huge: 81.2% in the U.S. for prostate cancer vs. 41% in Denmark and 47.4% in Italy; 61.7% in the U.S. for colon cancer vs. 39.2% in Denmark; 12% in the U.S. for lung cancer vs. 5.6% in Denmark.http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/08/us-vs-europe-life-expectancy-and-cancer.html

And infant mortality? An apples to oranges comparison.


How does this skew the statistics? Because in the United States if an infant is born weighing only 400 grams and not breathing, a doctor will likely spend lot of time and money trying to revive that infant. If the infant does not survive -- and the mortality rate for such infants is in excess of 50 percent -- that sequence of events will be recorded as a live birth and then a death.

In many countries, however, (including many European countries) such severe medical intervention would not be attempted and, moreover, regardless of whether or not it was, this would be recorded as a fetal death rather than a live birth. That unfortunate infant would never show up in infant mortality statistics.http://www.skepticism.net/articles/2002/000022.html


On a sidenote, in 2001 46.2% of all bankruptcies were due to healthcare expenses. By 2007 that number had risen to 62.1%. This is unprecedented at any time or place in history. I've know we were in helathcare crises since about 1986 but I had no idea really how bad it really is. Is this the kind of world we want to live in? Maybe you. I can't afford it. And don't give me those right wing talking points, fj. We've probably been over them before.

My bankruptcy attorney wife would dispute those numbers but I know that they were compiled by the darling of the left so I'll see what I can find on that later. Either way 100% of bankruptcy filings were due to too high levels of debt.

Now, how about your talking points?

[logroller]

Aw yes, statistics...reminds of a quote by Mark Twain


There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

In all fairness to the BK numbers and heathcare expense. I believe the correlation also includes things such as losing your job because you get sick and can't work and the debt you accumulated while working begets insolvency, so its not exactly accurate to imply causation.

Let's take a simple public heath issue: neighbors let their dogs crap in my yard and leave it there. :poop: Accepting there are series of hygiene issues which can result from this occurence, how would govt best address the issue. As talking points: we shall consider three and only three solutions with increasing levels of personal freedoms.

Solution 1: Ban dogs in public.

Solution 2: Dogs's only allowed in designated dog areas w/ govt provided poop bags.

Solution 3: Gov't provided poop bags.

What steps, and their costs, are associated with implementation/enforcement and how would these funds be raised?
How effective would the policy be? eg. Cost/Benefit
How intact are individual rights?

Just kidding. But I do hate picking up someone else's dogmess.

[actsnoblemartin]

thank you for your post, I found it very useful


Martin there are over 150 million hospital visists to the ER and inpatient stays (average 4 days). Now out of that there were 36 million inpatient stays of average 4 days with medications being given at least 4 times a day for each patient and also each patient receiving multiple medications. So for simplicity sake lets say they each receive 3 meds 4 times a day times for days that equals

1 billion 728 million doses prescribed and administer on the INPATIENTS. Now we need to add to this the number of ER visists as well which were over 118 million last year with an average of 4 doses of medication to stabilize and treat that adds another 472 million medication doses for a grand total of

2 billion 200 million doses of medication

And you really have to ask why there are 1.5 million errors??? that is an error rate of .00006% let me see that type of accuracy in any other profesion out there..

Is the healthcare industry perfect?? NO! Can it be better?? YES! would I trade ours for the socialist style of other countries?? HELL NO!! those types of systems may work for countries that have fewer people than we have in one state, but they will not work on the large scale that is needed in the US.

[Psychoblues]

I see...you make something up and it's Palin's fault.

I think it's palin that make's shit up and blames everybody else not only for her lies but for her ignorance as well. You don't see very well, do you, Mm?

Psychoblues

[Psychoblues]

http://www.huliq.com/50811/socialized-medicine-pros-and-cons

The Harvard School of Public Health and Harris Interactive have conducted a poll over the issue of Socialized Medicine. More than 2,000 people were asked their opinion about this kind of health care. The results are dubious.
Socialized Medicine

First of all, about 67% of the questioned had a good notion of the term, about 30 were not quite sure of the right meaning, and the rest just didn't know or didn't answer that question.

Thanks for sharing that, marteen. For those that are interested it makes for some solid objective reading even if I don't agree with all of it. ;)

Psychoblues

[fj1200]

Aw yes, statistics...reminds of a quote by Mark Twain


There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Did he lose an argument that day? ;)

[Psychoblues]

Martin there are over 150 million hospital visists to the ER and inpatient stays (average 4 days). Now out of that there were 36 million inpatient stays of average 4 days with medications being given at least 4 times a day for each patient and also each patient receiving multiple medications. So for simplicity sake lets say they each receive 3 meds 4 times a day times for days that equals

1 billion 728 million doses prescribed and administer on the INPATIENTS. Now we need to add to this the number of ER visists as well which were over 118 million last year with an average of 4 doses of medication to stabilize and treat that adds another 472 million medication doses for a grand total of

2 billion 200 million doses of medication

And you really have to ask why there are 1.5 million errors??? that is an error rate of .00006% let me see that type of accuracy in any other profesion out there..

Is the healthcare industry perfect?? NO! Can it be better?? YES! would I trade ours for the socialist style of other countries?? HELL NO!! those types of systems may work for countries that have fewer people than we have in one state, but they will not work on the large scale that is needed in the US.

I don't know how in the world I passed this as I have called myself keeping up with this thread!!!! Great stats, nukeman, and thanks for your sharing. In proper perspective many things are not the doom and gloom as purported by the naysayers, fearful and agenda driven partisans. This is not to excuse any medical errors ever in any case but that kind of success is unheard of in any field or endeavor in which I have been involved. Thanks again, nm!

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

I think it's palin that make's shit up and blames everybody else not only for her lies but for her ignorance as well. You don't see very well, do you, Mm?

Psychoblues

So you now deny making up the post about her taking her children to Canadian doctors?

[Psychoblues]

So you now deny making up the post about her taking her children to Canadian doctors?

No. I was responding to your horse-pucky post to me about palin and her positive experience and relationship with the Canadian healthcare system.

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

No. I was responding to your horse-pucky post to me about palin and her positive experience and relationship with the Canadian healthcare system.

Psychoblues

You're the one who tried to insert Palin into the argument with a fabricated story about her taking her kids to a Canadian doctor...are you drinking again?

[Psychoblues]

You're the one who tried to insert Palin into the argument with a fabricated story about her taking her kids to a Canadian doctor...are you drinking again?

Haven't had a drink in many moons, Mm, and I really don't appreciate you going there. But, you're entitled I guess but it doesn't go well with any honest persona whether cyber or otherwise.. Why are you being so adamantly in denial about palin's wonderful opinions and experience/s with the Canadian healthcare system? Are you having another one of those paranoid/schizo episodes?

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

Why are you being so adamantly in denial about palin's wonderful opinions and experience/s with the Canadian healthcare system?

They exist only in your mind. You can't compare the 1960's Canadian Healthcare with what they have today AND expression of gratitude for care recieved 40-50 years ago is NOT an indorsement of the current Canadian Healthcare...well, unless you're a fuckin idiot.

[Psychoblues]

They exist only in your mind. You can't compare the 1960's Canadian Healthcare with what they have today AND expression of gratitude for care recieved 40-50 years ago is NOT an indorsement of the current Canadian Healthcare...well, unless you're a fuckin idiot.

Do you have anything showing where palin has taken back her praise of the system? Of course she maintains gratitude, I would hope, but she makes a damned good living condemning systems, yes even the system that existed in Canada in the 60's, that exist not only in Canada but about everywhere including what we have right here in the USosA. I'm eagerly awaiting to hear any proposals from her and her ilk but so far it's just condemnation and zero ideas.

At some point we really do need to get back to the ridiculous contempt of court charge levied against the administration of President Barack Hussein Obama by a pissy tailed activist judge. I think la would appreciate that.

Psychoblues

[logroller]

No. I was responding to your horse-pucky post to me about palin and her positive experience and relationship with the Canadian healthcare system.

Psychoblues


I think it's palin that make's shit up and blames everybody else not only for her lies but for her ignorance as well. You don't see very well, do you, Mm?

Psychoblues

All this talk of shit reminds me of the dogmines in my frontyard?

QUESTION: Could health insurance be mandated by a state?

Just curious, what if the feds required each state to implement its own healthcare plan which reduces/covers the federal medicare/medicaid expenses, as opposed to withholding funds. I mean the states would be pissed, especially those who mooch of the fed funds, but couldn't that result in better apportionment of funds? State taxes would soar, but atleast the people could move.

Should I start a thread on this? Gonna do a little research on constitutions...unless someone knows already. In that case, let me know!

[red states rule]

Do you have anything showing where palin has taken back her praise of the system? Of course she maintains gratitude, I would hope, but she makes a damned good living condemning systems, yes even the system that existed in Canada in the 60's, that exist not only in Canada but about everywhere including what we have right here in the USosA. I'm eagerly awaiting to hear any proposals from her and her ilk but so far it's just condemnation and zero ideas.

At some point we really do need to get back to the ridiculous contempt of court charge levied against the administration of President Barack Hussein Obama by a pissy tailed activist judge. I think la would appreciate that.

Psychoblues

I am not surprised you fell for this PB. You libs are so full of hate for Ms Palin you run around saying she said she could see Russia from her house - when it was an actress who played Ms Palin on TV who actually said it

[red states rule]

Well PB so much for your lie about a majority loving Obamacare

Seems a majority want the states to be able to tell Obama to shove Obamacare




54% Say States Should Have Right To Opt Out of Health Care Law



More than half the states are challenging the constitutionality of the new federal health care law in court, many focusing on the requirement that every American must have health insurance. More voters than ever oppose that requirement and think states should have the right to opt out of some or all of the health care law.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 39% of Likely U.S. Voters at least somewhat favor a federal law that requires every American to buy or obtain health insurance, while 58% at least somewhat oppose such a requirement. The new findings include 21% who Strongly Favor the requirement versus 44% who are Strongly Opposed. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

Most voters have expressed skepticism about requiring all Americans to obtain health insurance since the debate over health care began heating up early in the Obama presidency. Opposition is up five points from last March just after Democrats in Congress passed the health care law with that mandate.

Fifty-four percent (54%) of voters now say individual states should have the right to opt out of the entire health care plan, up from 47% in December 2009. Thirty percent (30%) disagree and say states should not be able to do that. Fifteen percent (15%) are not sure.


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/february_2011/54_say_states_should_have_right_to_opt_out_of_heal th_care_law

[logroller]

Well PB so much for your lie about a majority loving Obamacare

Seems a majority want the states to be able to tell Obama to shove Obamacare

Thx for the post red. Was this meant as an answer to my question, that the issue is the unconstitutional usurpation of power by the fed, not individual rights!

[red states rule]

Thx for the post red. Was this meant as an answer to my question, that the issue is the unconstitutional usurption of power of power by the fed, not individual rights!

It is clear to anyone with an IQ above room temp that it is NOT

The US Constitution LIMITS the power of the government and it is common sense the Feds do NOT have the power to force a private citizen (under threat of fines and JAIL) to buy a product/service

To libs like PB the US Constitution is a pain in the ass and a barrier to imposing liberalism on the American people

[Psychoblues]

Thx for the post red. Was this meant as an answer to my question, that the issue is the unconstitutional usurpation of power by the fed, not individual rights!

I just found this, lr. It isn't very comprehensive but it's clear that neither side of this issue has any wiggle room for failure. I anticipate the law staying in place in one form or another for at least the rest of my life.


NBC/WSJ poll: Public Divided On Health Law And Repeal


Mark Murray writes:

With House Republicans today set to vote on -- and pass -- their legislation to repeal President Obama's signature health-care law, a brand-new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds that the American public is divided on the law and the repeal effort.

Thirty-nine percent believe the health plan that Obama signed into law last year is a good idea, versus another 39 percent who think it's a bad idea.

But those saying it's a good idea is at its highest level since September 2009, and those saying it's a bad idea is at its lowest level since June 2009.

The poll also finds that 46 percent of respondents are opposed to repeal (with 34 percent strongly opposed), while 45 percent support the repeal effort (with 35 percent strongly in favor).

The full NBC/WSJ poll, which will be released beginning at 6:30 pm ET, was conducted Jan. 13-17 of 1,000 adults (200 reached by cell phone), and it has a margin of error of plus-minus 3.1 percentage points.


More and comments: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/19/5877937-nbcwsj-poll-public-divided-on-health-law-and-repeal

Psychoblues.

[red states rule]

I just found this, lr. It isn't very comprehensive but it's clear that neither side of this issue has any wiggle room for failure. I anticipate the law staying in place in one form or another for at least the rest of my life.


NBC/WSJ poll: Public Divided On Health Law And Repeal


Mark Murray writes:

With House Republicans today set to vote on -- and pass -- their legislation to repeal President Obama's signature health-care law, a brand-new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds that the American public is divided on the law and the repeal effort.

Thirty-nine percent believe the health plan that Obama signed into law last year is a good idea, versus another 39 percent who think it's a bad idea.

But those saying it's a good idea is at its highest level since September 2009, and those saying it's a bad idea is at its lowest level since June 2009.

The poll also finds that 46 percent of respondents are opposed to repeal (with 34 percent strongly opposed), while 45 percent support the repeal effort (with 35 percent strongly in favor).

The full NBC/WSJ poll, which will be released beginning at 6:30 pm ET, was conducted Jan. 13-17 of 1,000 adults (200 reached by cell phone), and it has a margin of error of plus-minus 3.1 percentage points.


More and comments: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/19/5877937-nbcwsj-poll-public-divided-on-health-law-and-repeal

Psychoblues.

So a poll from MSNBC shows support for Obamacare

As I posted before PB maybe a poll of the MSNBC Newsroom would show support - but the rest of the polls I have seen show a majority want Obamacare repealed

Perhaps you want to continue to ignore the 2010 election where the winners ran on repealing Obamacare

[Psychoblues]

WSJ----WALL STREET JOURNAL----RUPERT MURDOCK

Probably dubious at best.

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

Do you have anything showing where palin has taken back her praise of the system? Of course she maintains gratitude, I would hope, but she makes a damned good living condemning systems, yes even the system that existed in Canada in the 60's, that exist not only in Canada but about everywhere including what we have right here in the USosA. I'm eagerly awaiting to hear any proposals from her and her ilk but so far it's just condemnation and zero ideas.

At some point we really do need to get back to the ridiculous contempt of court charge levied against the administration of President Barack Hussein Obama by a pissy tailed activist judge. I think la would appreciate that.

Psychoblues

How am I supposed to post her retraction of something she never said? And you wonder why I suspect you have some cerebral disorder?

[Missileman]

I just found this, lr. It isn't very comprehensive but it's clear that neither side of this issue has any wiggle room for failure. I anticipate the law staying in place in one form or another for at least the rest of my life.


NBC/WSJ poll: Public Divided On Health Law And Repeal


Mark Murray writes:

With House Republicans today set to vote on -- and pass -- their legislation to repeal President Obama's signature health-care law, a brand-new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds that the American public is divided on the law and the repeal effort.

Thirty-nine percent believe the health plan that Obama signed into law last year is a good idea, versus another 39 percent who think it's a bad idea.

But those saying it's a good idea is at its highest level since September 2009, and those saying it's a bad idea is at its lowest level since June 2009.

The poll also finds that 46 percent of respondents are opposed to repeal (with 34 percent strongly opposed), while 45 percent support the repeal effort (with 35 percent strongly in favor).

The full NBC/WSJ poll, which will be released beginning at 6:30 pm ET, was conducted Jan. 13-17 of 1,000 adults (200 reached by cell phone), and it has a margin of error of plus-minus 3.1 percentage points.


More and comments: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/19/5877937-nbcwsj-poll-public-divided-on-health-law-and-repeal

Psychoblues.

So where's the poll with te 62% favorable view of Obamacare that you've been slinging around?

[Psychoblues]

So where's the poll with te 62% favorable view of Obamacare that you've been slinging around?

It's a different poll asking different questions. But if a poll from the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch is going to be dismissed out of hand as being liberally biased then I think I'm wasting my time trying to find the other one. This country is certainly about evenly split on the healthcare reform right now. I can't wait for all the rest of the components to kick in and the American people can finally rest at night without worrying that a sickness might bankrupt them, that if they have an accident the ambulance doesn't have to jump hoops trying to find an emergency room that will accept their kind of insurance, that young college students can go to graduate school or even law school or medical school and be covered on their parents health insurance, oh there are so many excellent things coming out of this bill in the near future and when the American people know about it they will curse the day they ever heard a gene beck or bill o'really tirade about the evils of the healthcare reform. That will indeed be a blessed day!!!!!!!!!!!


Psychoblues

[red states rule]

WSJ----WALL STREET JOURNAL----RUPERT MURDOCK

Probably dubious at best.

Psychoblues

Funny how libs dismissed the polls showing Dems were going to get their collective asses kicked in the last election

Tell me PB why did so many Dems who supported Obamacare LOSE last November?

and why did so few Dems who survived did NOT run ads promoting their YES vote?

And why were Dems told NOT to run on the passage of Obamacare after the recess of Congress when they left DC to campaign?

I know I am probably wasting my time asking you these questions since you have ducked all my other questions. You seem to have a phobia when it comes to being asked to defend your posts lately

[Missileman]

It's a different poll asking different questions. But if a poll from the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch is going to be dismissed out of hand as being liberally biased then I think I'm wasting my time trying to find the other one. This country is certainly about evenly split on the healthcare reform right now. I can't wait for all the rest of the components to kick in and the American people can finally rest at night without worrying that a sickness might bankrupt them, that if they have an accident the ambulance doesn't have to jump hoops trying to find an emergency room that will accept their kind of insurance, that young college students can go to graduate school or even law school or medical school and be covered on their parents health insurance, oh there are so many excellent things coming out of this bill in the near future and when the American people know about it they will curse the day they ever heard a gene beck or bill o'really tirade about the evils of the healthcare reform. That will indeed be a blessed day!!!!!!!!!!!


Psychoblues

You're the one throwing a 62% favorable polling number around...I see no reason why you should hesitate to prove its existence other than the really obvious one.

[red states rule]

You're the one throwing a 62% favorable polling number around...I see no reason why you should hesitate to prove its existence other than the really obvious one.

Pack a lunch

You are in for a very long wait

[Missileman]

Pack a lunch

You are in for a very long wait

I already KNOW that a 62% favorable poll doesn't exist.

[red states rule]

I already KNOW that a 62% favorable poll doesn't exist.

It does exist

In the "mind" of PB

it is nothing more then wishful thinking of his part

[Psychoblues]

I already KNOW that a 62% favorable poll doesn't exist.

Tis' true I cannot find the link but it was being reported on all the news stations including faux just a few weeks ago. At this point it doesn't matter. We just went through a murderous election cycle where every lie that can be told with no chance of a proper rebuttal was made and we are still evenly split with the pro reform edging out by about a half of a percent. We'll look a lot better as the population becomes more exposed to the reforms and can see how the reforms help them in their own lives. Of course we'll always have the idiots like gene beck and shrill o'really to badmouth about everything including what republicans want and need in their own pursuits of happiness. I hope you cats can cut through that bullshit.

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

Tis' true I cannot find the link but it was being reported on all the news stations including faux just a few weeks ago. At this point it doesn't matter. We just went through a murderous election cycle where every lie that can be told with no chance of a proper rebuttal was made and we are still evenly split with the pro reform edging out by about a half of a percent. We'll look a lot better as the population becomes more exposed to the reforms and can see how the reforms help them in their own lives. Of course we'll always have the idiots like gene beck and shrill o'really to badmouth about everything including what republicans want and need in their own pursuits of happiness. I hope you cats can cut through that bullshit.

Psychoblues

Obamacare IS unconstitutional and Obama and his administration know it. That is why the justice department will not join in a request to fast-track the 26-state lawsuit to the Supreme Court.

[red states rule]

Tis' true I cannot find the link but it was being reported on all the news stations including faux just a few weeks ago. At this point it doesn't matter. We just went through a murderous election cycle where every lie that can be told with no chance of a proper rebuttal was made and we are still evenly split with the pro reform edging out by about a half of a percent. We'll look a lot better as the population becomes more exposed to the reforms and can see how the reforms help them in their own lives. Of course we'll always have the idiots like gene beck and shrill o'really to badmouth about everything including what republicans want and need in their own pursuits of happiness. I hope you cats can cut through that bullshit.

Psychoblues

PB I will put this as nicely as possible

YOU ARE A DAMN LIAR

There has NO POLL showing the level of support for Obamacare as you claim

Now once again you try and squirm off the hook when you can't back up your LIES

And please stop trying to dismiss the election results because the voters were to damn stupid to understand how damn great Obamacare is

Over 700 waivers covering over 3 million workers have been given by the administration. Dems exempted themselves from Obamacare.If Obamacare is so damn great then everyone would be demanding to be covered by it

[Psychoblues]

Obamacare IS unconstitutional and Obama and his administration know it. That is why the justice department will not join in a request to fast-track the 26-state lawsuit to the Supreme Court.

I'll believe it's unconstitutional when it is completely eliminated and that will NEVER happen. This legislation is too important and the American people and the American medical communities have demanded it for over a century now.


Psychoblues

[fj1200]

I'll believe it's unconstitutional when it is completely eliminated and that will NEVER happen. This legislation is too important and the American people and the American medical communities have demanded it for over a century now.

Yes, yes, 62% of them I hear. :rolleyes:

[Missileman]

I'll believe it's unconstitutional when it is completely eliminated and that will NEVER happen. This legislation is too important and the American people and the American medical communities have demanded it for over a century now.


Psychoblues

It's already been ruled unconstitutional...apparently you'll NEVER believe it.

[red states rule]

I'll believe it's unconstitutional when it is completely eliminated and that will NEVER happen. This legislation is too important and the American people and the American medical communities have demanded it for over a century now.


Psychoblues

When did it become constitutional for the government to force people ro buy insurance?

When did it become constitutional for ILLEGALS to be given coverage at the expense of US taxpayers?

[Psychoblues]

It's already been ruled unconstitutional...apparently you'll NEVER believe it.

Let me repeat to you just once more, slowly this time. One piss-assed judicial activist don't stop no show.

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

Let me repeat to you just once more, slowly this time. One piss-assed judicial activist don't stop no show.

Psychoblues

One lying cocksucker-in-chief can't declare it constitutional either.

[red states rule]

Let me repeat to you just one more time, slowly this time. One piss-assed judicial activist don't stop no show.

Psychoblues

But a majority of the voters, scared Dems worried about their jobs in 2012, and 4 Judges on the USSC will drive a stake thru the heart of Obamacare and reduce libs like you into babbling incoherent fools

Please remember that Judge used OBAMA's OWN WORDS AGAINST HIM in the ruling

You seem to have an issue admitting Obama was opposed to forcing people to buy insurance PB

[Psychoblues]

One lying cocksucker-in-chief can't declare it constitutional either.

Between the President of the United Stateds of America, all of Congress and Senate and so far a few Federal Courts that conservatives like to ignore the Act looks to be on solid constitutional ground. Stamp your feet and cry out, "it ain't so, it ain't so" but it is so and there is nothing that you can do about it.

My, my. Did you kiss your mother with that filthy mouth?

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

Between the President of the United Stateds of America, all of Congress and Senate and so far a few Federal Courts that conservatives like to ignore the Act looks to be on solid constitutional ground. Stamp your feet and cry out, "it ain't so, it ain't so" but it is so and there is nothing that you can do about it.

My, my. Did you kiss your mother with that filthy mouth?

Psychoblues

It wasn't ALL of Congress you twit

[red states rule]

Between the President of the United Stateds of America, all of Congress and Senate and so far a few Federal Courts that conservatives like to ignore the Act looks to be on solid constitutional ground. Stamp your feet and cry out, "it ain't so, it ain't so" but it is so and there is nothing that you can do about it.

My, my. Did you kiss your mother with that filthy mouth?

Psychoblues

PB Obamacare is pn the way out. Obama top "accomplishment" has been ruled unconstitutional and all you care about is attacking the opposition

It does not matter to you your party violated the own ers manual of the country to ram thru a bill that forced private citizens to buy a product under the threat of fins and jail

No what matters most to you is a Federal Judge applied the law and tossed out your sides attempted power grab

Like Virgil, it is clear you do not give a damn about the law, the US Constitution, or what is right. What is matters most to you is how this affects the power of the Dems, and your guy Obama

Party over country once again from another liberal

[fj1200]

Let me repeat to you just once more, slowly this time. One piss-assed judicial activist don't stop no show.

Psychoblues

Isn't activism "legislating" from the bench? Which is exactly the opposite of what happened with Vinson.

[red states rule]

Isn't activism "legislating" from the bench? Which is exactly the opposite of what happened with Vinson.

Any time any Judge rules with the US Constitution libs like PB blow a fuse. You see, libs like PB see the US Constitution as a road block to implementing the lefts agenda

Rather then attempt to explain WHERE in the US Constitution the power to force private citizens is granted to the government - PB has another of his endless temper tantrums and amusing tirades

[Psychoblues]

It wasn't ALL of Congress you twit

And what part of Congress was not allowed to vote on the Patients Rights and Afforable Care Act?

Psychoblues

[Missileman]

And what part of Congress was not allowed to vote on the Patients Rights and Afforable Care Act?

Psychoblues

I was of course referring to your bullshit implication that legislative support for Obamacare was unanimous.

[Psychoblues]

I was of course referring to your bullshit implication that legislative support for Obamacare was unanimous.

I never made any such implication. Don't put your dopey-assed imaginations off on me, OK?

Psychoblues

[red states rule]

I never made any such implication. Don't put your dopey-assed imaginations off on me, OK?

Psychoblues


Any time any Judge rules with the US Constitution libs like PB blow a fuse. You see, libs like PB see the US Constitution as a road block to implementing the lefts agenda

Rather then attempt to explain WHERE in the US Constitution the power to force private citizens is granted to the government - PB has another of his endless temper tantrums and amusing tirades

[red states rule]

Some in the liberal media are willing to admit the truth - even as libs like PB refuse to come to grips with reality

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