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OCA
05-08-2007, 04:18 PM
Read the comments afterward, gives you some hope.


Haditha case set to unfold starting May 8
North County Times ^ | April 28, 2007 | MARK WALKER



NORTH COUNTY -- The first criminal case to be heard in the killing of two dozen Iraqi civilians in Haditha in 2005 will unfold one week from Tuesday when Marine Capt. Randy W. Stone appears in a Camp Pendleton courtroom.

Stone is accused of two counts of dereliction of duty and violation of a lawful order for allegedly failing to accurately report and investigate a suspected violation of the law of war, according to the charges against him filed by the Marine Corps on Dec. 21.

The 34-year-old New York native was the staff legal adviser of Camp Pendleton's 3rd Battalion when the Haditha killings took place in the aftermath of a roadside bombing that destroyed a Humvee and killed a lance corporal on Nov. 19, 2005.

Stone continued to hold the battalion's top legal position until shortly before the charges against him and similar accusations against three other officers were filed. Four enlisted men also were charged with unpremeditated murder and negligent homicide as a result of the civilian deaths.

Military law experts and historians have said the charges against Stone represent the first time a legal officer has been accused of criminal conduct arising out of a wartime setting.

During what is known as an Article 32 hearing, Stone's attorneys and Marine Corps prosecutors will present their cases.

At the conclusion, the hearing officer will recommend whether he believes Stone should be ordered to court-martial. That decision will be made by Lt. Gen. James Mattis, the convening authority over the case as head of Marine Corps forces in the Middle East.

Several sources with intimate knowledge of the case have told the North County Times that they believe Stone stands the best chance of seeing charges dropped.

He is essentially accused of not ordering his own investigation, instead relying on written reports from the Marines who were there and after-action reports filed by other officers.

Efforts to reach Stone's lead attorney, Charles Gittins of Middletown, Va., were unsuccessful. Military prosecutors are forbidden from discussing pending cases.

The Haditha killings occurred on a day when there were four insurgent attacks in the city, part of what defense attorneys say was a day of coordinated attacks against U.S. forces in the Anbar province west of Baghdad.

The violence was so intense that Marine commanders dispatched two quick-reaction forces, ordered one airstrike and had two helicopter gunships respond to the attacks.

The civilian deaths the Marines are accused of came in the wake of the Humvee attack. The killings started with the slaying of five men who emerged from a car that drove up shortly after the Humvee was blown up, and the killing of 19 others in an attack on four nearby homes where the Marines say they were under attack by small-arms fire.

Defense attorneys contend the men charged with murder properly responded to being attacked. Attorneys for the officers contend their clients accurately reported what they knew and also are not guilty of any wrongdoing.

No Iraqi witnesses are expected to appear at any of the hearings, and there were no forensic tests on any victims because family members refused requests to allow exhumations.

The Marine Corps in recent days has granted immunity to at least eight of the men who were at Haditha. A sergeant who was accused of five counts of murder saw charges dismissed after prosecutors said his testimony at upcoming hearings outweighed his involvement. A lieutenant who was part of a reaction force and allegedly ordered the Marines to assault the homes also has been granted immunity.

As the first case to reach court, Stone's hearing is expected to draw dozens of reporters to a media center the Marine Corps has established deep inside Camp Pendleton. The center features large television screens to view proceedings broadcast from a nearby courtroom that has limited seating.

Less than three months before the Haditha killings, President Bush had praised Stone during a 2005 visit to San Diego for a rally to "stay the course" in Iraq.

During his speech, Bush noted that Stone's grandfather, Leon Stone, fought as a Navy sailor supporting the Marines in the battle of Iwo Jima during World War II.

"And today ... Captain Randy Stone carries on a proud family tradition," Bush said. "Captain Stone is a Marine officer now serving in Iraq. He knows that he and his generation are doing the same vital work in this war on terror that his grandparents did in World War II. He also knows how this struggle will end."

If Stone is ultimately ordered to trial and convicted of all the counts against him, the maximum punishment he could face would be two years in jail and a dismissal from the service.

An Article 32 hearing for the highest-ranking officer charged in the case, Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani, is scheduled to begin the last week in May.

Contact staff writer Mark Walker at (760) 740-3529 or mlwalker@nctimes.com.



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TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: haditha; iraq; wot
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1 posted on 04/28/2007 10:26:26 AM PDT by RedRover
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To: 4woodenboats; aculeus; American Cabalist; AmericanYankee; AndrewWalden; Antoninus; AliVeritas; ...
PING!
For a list of all Haditha threads, click at the link.


2 posted on 04/28/2007 10:32:10 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover
Perhaps the North Carolina Attorney General should be appointed to investigate the prosecutors.



3 posted on 04/28/2007 10:32:21 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: All
If you would like to help with the civilian lawyer’s legal fees for the
Haditha Marines you can do so by going to these sites.

Defend Our Marines

Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt

SSgt. Frank Wuterich

Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani

Marine Defense Fund






4 posted on 04/28/2007 10:33:44 AM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: RedRover
Stone is accused of two counts of dereliction of duty and violation of a lawful order for allegedly failing to accurately report and investigate a suspected violation of the law of war, according to the charges against him filed by the Marine Corps on Dec. 21.
See what's going on? The prosecution wants to FIRST try to nail somebody for failing to accurately report a "crime" that never happened. Catch 22.


5 posted on 04/28/2007 10:37:47 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: RedRover
Interesting, Red.

If Capt. Stone’s Article 32 hearing isn’t postponed it will be the first 32 hearing and the charges against him seem to be the weakest against any of the Marines. It seems the government isn’t very confident in their charges.



6 posted on 04/28/2007 10:38:17 AM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: PAR35
It’s high time somebody lifted the lid on this travesty. And it won’t be the media and it won’t be Congress.



7 posted on 04/28/2007 10:38:54 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover
Several sources with intimate knowledge of the case have told the North County Times that they believe Stone stands the best chance of seeing charges dropped.

See how they're hedging their bets already.

They want to make sure that the anti-Marine sentiment in the media continues unabated.

Also note the leaks from "sources with intimate knowledge..."

Who are they and why are they leaking? Why doesn't the military care?


8 posted on 04/28/2007 10:41:59 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: RedRover
Stone is accused of two counts of dereliction of duty and violation of a lawful order for allegedly failing to accurately report and investigate a suspected violation of the law of war, according to the charges against him filed by the Marine Corps on Dec. 21.
Sheesh, so the dog ate his homework. And this is the lead case!


9 posted on 04/28/2007 10:51:32 AM PDT by smoothsailing ("Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"--President Ronald Reagan)
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To: RedRover
it won’t be Congress.
You don't have any confidence in the veterans in Congress? Murtha, Kerry, etc?


10 posted on 04/28/2007 11:00:17 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: jazusamo; All
For more about Capt. Randy W. Stone, see here.

11 posted on 04/28/2007 11:12:28 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: Lancey Howard
Catch 22 pretty much states the csse against Capt. Stone.

...”He is essentially accused of not ordering his own investigation, instead relying on written reports from the Marines who were there and after-action reports filed by other officers.”....

He did an investigation. He’s accused of believing the reports presented by the Marines on the scene and other officers. I guess the prosecution thinks he should have assumed they were lieing? Lest anybody forget, the Marines were trying to take Haditha back from the insurgents that ruled the town before the December elections. They were pretty busy trying to install law and order.



12 posted on 04/28/2007 11:24:42 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: Girlene
"....for allegedly failing to accurately report and investigate a suspected violation of the law of war
See the problem here? This crap almost makes me want to side with the rats. If Bush wants this war run by the scumbag liberal ACLU lawyers of JAG and NCIS, then maybe we should get the hell out of Iraq until somebody with the stones to WIN takes over.

"the law of war" (spit)
It's a "law" that applies only to US soldiers and Marines, of course. It makes me throw up in my mouth a little.


13 posted on 04/28/2007 11:40:37 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: xzins
I would be surprised if the same people leaking to WAPO are the same leaking to NCT, as WAPO appears to try to discredit NCT with stories designed to put on a different spin.
Also, WAPO has received unfettered access to the entire 10,000(?) page case, not so with NCT.

Much as I appreciate NCT's drastically more objective stance, it's clear there are leaks from multiple sources.

I don't like the fact that anyone is leaking anything while we have troops who rely on secrecy of their movements to stay alive

I will not forget the UN reporting daily on Israeli troop movements during the latest 2 pronged assault from Hezbollah & Hamas, sometimes within minutes of a strategic move.

I don't think NCT or any individual would betray our troops in such a way, but I do believe that WAPO and individual reporters on their own initiative would, if it gave them a scoop. And if in that scoop they found a helmet or two, it would not be the 1st time in recent years that our treasonous media got our troops killed.

Cheney has brought that up at least once that I have seen - he was furious, but not one of our intelligence agencies lifted a finger to find the perp....actually there was that one woman from the CIA, but surely she was just the tip of the traitor brigade.

From the DIA burying Able Danger to the CIA leaks & Wilson/Plame CIA/Justice Dept. coup attempt on the white house to congress ho's meeting with our enemies, we either do a top down restructuring beginning with interviewing everyone who had access to leaked classified information under penalty of perjury or let them retire.

I'd sure rather see some new blood in those agencies/congress than see one more drop of blood be let from our soldiers in harm's way due to politics/treasonous reporting/encouraging our enemies.


14 posted on 04/28/2007 11:44:37 AM PDT by 4woodenboats (We have a President, not a babysitter. Let him do his job, and the Military do theirs.)
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To: 4woodenboats
“we either do a” = “we need to do a”



15 posted on 04/28/2007 11:51:05 AM PDT by 4woodenboats (We have a President, not a babysitter. Let him do his job, and the Military do theirs.)
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To: RedRover
Not Me Lie but We Lie.

Pray for W and Our Marines



16 posted on 04/28/2007 12:40:54 PM PDT by bray (The Surge is Working against both Enemies of America)
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To: RedRover; jazusamo; Girlene; xzins; smoothsailing; All
Spent a little time browsing around some of the links, and ran into this site from the CBS 60 Minutes story by Rich Pelley. I fully expected to get a blast of left-wing MSM-type pandering to the defeatist populous, but I quickly found a lot of respect and appreciation for the subjects in the photographs and their descriptions (you have to hover over each one) that at times brought a lump to my throat.
This series needs wider dissemination, both with us and the rest of the citizenry -- it is powerful.

Lucian Read Photography ^

[Opens in seperate window]

There are several shots taken during the Haditha operation, though I did not recognise any of the faces or names, other than the one of Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas, KIA 11/19/05. Look under 'Western Al=Anbar'.


17 posted on 04/28/2007 12:43:14 PM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional !!)
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To: 4woodenboats
I will not forget the UN reporting daily on Israeli troop movements during the latest 2 pronged assault from Hezbollah & Hamas, sometimes within minutes of a strategic move.
The UN served the same function during Vietnam, tipping off the NVA to US military missions.


18 posted on 04/28/2007 2:11:49 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: brityank
Thanks for that link. Those are some great photos. I think Lucian Read is the same photographer who took the black and white portrait photos of the Kilo Company that have shown up on some of these threads.



19 posted on 04/28/2007 3:22:22 PM PDT by Girlene
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To: RedRover
They should put the Joint Chiefs and Rumsfeld in a cell for treason over this despicable case. The seven of them combined couldn’t wipe the behinds of a single Haditha defendant.



20 posted on 04/28/2007 3:27:56 PM PDT by montag813
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To: Lancey Howard
I never knew that, thanks.



21 posted on 04/28/2007 3:58:22 PM PDT by 4woodenboats (We have a President, not a babysitter. Let him do his job, and the Military do theirs.)
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To: RedRover
....”Stone is accused of two counts of dereliction of duty and violation of a lawful order for allegedly failing to accurately report and investigate a suspected violation of the law of war”...

There was no innacurate reporting by the four officers who are charged. They reported the Haditha incident accurately and then the Public Affairs officer modified the info for the press release.

From this NY Times link, “Military Cites ‘Negligence’ in Aftermath of Iraq Killings” ,http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/world/middleeast/22haditha.html

....”The captain, Jeffrey S. Pool, told General Bargewell’s investigators that he was given reports from battalion commanders that accurately described the marines’ killing of civilians, said lawyers who read the report. But Captain Pool said he issued a news release blaming insurgents for the deaths because he believed that the killings were ultimately a direct result of the roadside bombing of the marines, the lawyers said.

“The way I saw it was this,” Captain Pool told two colonels questioning him, according to a lawyer who read the report to a reporter. “A bomb blast went off, or was initiated, that is what started, that is the reason they’re getting this, is a bomb blew up, killed people. We killed people back, and that’s the story.” (Since the investigation, the captain has been promoted to major and is again working as a public affairs officer in Anbar Province.)

Lawyers for the four officers charged with failing to properly investigate the civilian killings blame the inaccurate news release for creating the false perception that the Marine Corps chain of command had covered up the killing of civilians.”.....

There was no coverup; there was no innacurate reporting by the officers. These charges should be dismissed. In the leaked Bargewell report, Capt. Pool admits he changed the wording. He’s not charged.



22 posted on 04/28/2007 4:11:09 PM PDT by Girlene
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To: RedRover
I am so glad they are starting with the officer because if he is found innocent than the rest will be either dropped or also found innocent. This is very good news or at least potentially.



23 posted on 04/28/2007 4:14:44 PM PDT by napscoordinator (.)
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To: Girlene
“All levels of command tended to view civilian casualties, even in significant numbers, as routine and as the natural and intended result of insurgent tactics,” General Bargewell wrote in his report, according to two people who have read it. “Statements made by the chain of command during interviews for this investigation, taken as a whole, suggest that Iraqi civilian lives are not as important as U.S. lives, their deaths are just the cost of doing business, and that the Marines need to get the job done no matter what it takes.”
....and that's the way it is.


24 posted on 04/28/2007 6:05:51 PM PDT by 4woodenboats (We have a President, not a babysitter. Let him do his job, and the Military do theirs.)
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To: 4woodenboats
Is this guy Bargewell a Clinton scumbag?



25 posted on 04/28/2007 9:14:48 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Lancey Howard
Well, I just read a bio of Maj. General Bargewell and he is surely somebody who deserves respect, if you can believe the Washington Post. Perhaps his backhanded slap at the Marines was from jealousy. Heck, maybe he’s got a burr up his behind because his Special Forces let bin Laden get away after the Marines had him in their sites in Afghanistan. “Operation Anaconda” I think it was called. I heard a bunch of snot-noses threatened to resign their commissions if the Army’s Special Forces didn’t get cool stuff to do like the Marines.

We obviously never learned anything from the hostage rescue debacle in 1980.



26 posted on 04/28/2007 9:23:26 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: RedRover
“...in the aftermath of a roadside bombing that destroyed a Humvee and killed a lance corporal on Nov. 19, 2005.”

Perhaps I’m just too damn picky. Maybe I just get blinded by hate when I see this disgusting injustice being leveled against our fighting Troops.

Perhaps I despise the media so much, that anything they report, will never be what my eyes need to see.

BUT damnit, he was not just “a lance corporal”.

He was a man, he was one of our warriors, a patriot, a brother, a US Marine and he actually had a Freaking NAME.

He was Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas....and his name should not be forgotten.

May our brother, a Marine, Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas.....RIP.



27 posted on 04/29/2007 12:06:54 AM PDT by Gator113
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To: Gator113


Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas, 20, from El Paso, Texas



The farewell service for LCpl. Terraza in Iraq


28 posted on 04/29/2007 5:47:15 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: Gator113
Good point. Thanks for making it.



29 posted on 04/29/2007 8:12:33 AM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Girlene; napscoordinator
I need to create a tentative schedule for the hearings. Basically, it seems they're scheduled for a month, from May 8 to June 8.
Of course, even the May 8th date has not been officially confirmed by the Corps so this is still speculative.

I can understand that the schedule must be a logistical nightmare. If I were Gen. Mattis, I'd want to conclude all the Article 32s before commencing the court martials. But it's possible that some cases could go to a court martial before all the Article 32s have been held. In any event, if the cases go to courts-martial, there may not begin until Sept. or Oct. So it's possible we may not have verdicts in the cases until early 2008.


30 posted on 04/29/2007 9:04:26 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover
I don’t know how to post photos here because I haven’t bothered to learn how yet, so thank you for posting those.



31 posted on 04/29/2007 1:43:47 PM PDT by Gator113
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To: Girlene; freema
I forgot to note that Capt. Stone’s civ attorney is none other than Charles Gittins, the attorney who represented Lt. Pantano.



32 posted on 04/29/2007 2:06:00 PM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: Lancey Howard
More thoughts on the matter here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1822199/posts

Start at Post 27 and 35, then from 57 on....



33 posted on 04/29/2007 2:30:53 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: RedRover
I didn’t want to hear that, Red. I could kick the dog.



34 posted on 04/29/2007 2:32:52 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: 4woodenboats
rock the boat bump



35 posted on 04/29/2007 2:37:00 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: brityank; lilycicero
They are simply the most beautiful creatures on the face of the earth to me.



36 posted on 04/29/2007 2:40:06 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: Gator113; freema
Families of the Haditha Marines have found these threads on FR. If the Terrazas family sees this, semper gratus.

37 posted on 04/29/2007 3:11:54 PM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover; Gator113
Red, thank you.
I could hardly respond to your post, Gator- so I just didn't respond at all.




38 posted on 04/29/2007 3:37:48 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: freema
And how!



39 posted on 04/29/2007 4:43:15 PM PDT by lilycicero (SSgt Wuterich and his squad don't make deals!)
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To: freema
That’s probably the best response of all. Thank you, (insert the heart thing here, because I don’t know how. ;)



40 posted on 04/29/2007 9:45:08 PM PDT by Gator113
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glockmail
09-06-2007, 08:16 AM
A video taped from a Scan Eagle unmanned aerial vehicle — purported to show the action that took place in Haditha when 24 Iraqi civilians and insurgents were killed — was heavily edited by government investigators, a NewsMax investigation reveals.

The reason, according to an inside source: to avoid showing anything that exonerates the Marines who were accused of murdering the victims.

Four Marines originally faced murder charges stemming from the Haditha incident. Charges against three of them have since been dropped, but Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich is still facing a court martial.

NewsMax can reveal that the video — which was broadcast by CNN — was a small, carefully edited part of what the Scan Eagle transmitted during its daylong surveillance flight over the battle scene on Nov. 19, 2005. And shockingly, the approximately one hour of edited footage was the only Scan Eagle footage provided to the Marines’ defense teams by the prosecution.

According to CNN, “The video appears to show that, throughout that day, Marines engaged in fierce firefights and called in air strikes to level buildings — often with no definitive idea of who was inside."

Had the entire video been shown it would have revealed that the Marines knew exactly “who was inside” — insurgents were clearly shown entering the target buildings before the structures were bombed. If CNN had been able “to review the whole video, they would see that we did indeed have a definitive idea of who was inside,’" an intelligence officer told NewsMax.

The insurgents’ car parked outside the buildings “was packed to the gills with weapons, and we had just witnessed them complete an ambush on our ambulance,” the officer said. “We saw them enter the house, clapping each other on the back and congratulating themselves.”

The Marine intelligence officer who monitored the Scan Eagle’s video transmissions throughout the day told NewsMax that there was continuous video feed from the Scan Eagle for 8 to 10 hours. Yet barely an hour of it was provided to the Marines' defense teams by the prosecution or the Naval Criminal Investigation Service.

“Someone, under the supervision of NCIS, screened this video feed, and made the conscious decision to preserve only four segments of approximately 15 minutes each — according to the defense attorneys who received it upon discovery release,” our intelligence source confided.

“This 8 to 10 hours, viewed in its entirety, shows men in black, with weapons, fleeing the neighborhood of houses 1, 2, 3 and 4 [the area where the civilians and eight of the insurgents were killed]. It follows their route as they meet up with other insurgents throughout the city. It clearly demonstrates the magnitude of the insurgents’ organization, skill, and timing in attacking Marines.”

The video, he recalled, “shows them parking, exiting the vehicle, and entering the housing complex. It shows Marines assaulting the building, insurgents fleeing out the back of the building, and Marines falling back from the assault as the insurgents defend the house.”

Finally, the intelligence officer revealed, the full, undoctored Scan Eagle video “shows an insurgent, at the end of the day, under continuous observation from the air and under continuous pursuit and fire, emerge from a family's home holding their children hostage, in order to protect himself from further air strikes.”

The deliberate editing of the video to show the defendants in the worst possible light, the Marine intelligence expert told NewsMax, “should have the defense screaming prosecutorial and NCIS misconduct.”

The media have focused on the killing of five young men who arrived in the midst of the insurgent ambush in a white car, usually described as a taxi, and were gunned down by Wuterich and/or Sgt. Sanick P. Dela Cruz. Dela Cruz was one of the Marines originally accused of murdering civilians before charges were dropped when he agreed to testify against his fellow Marines.

Those media have generally sought to portray the Haditha ambush as a massacre by Marines on a rampage, and the media’s bias has been on display as recently as Friday when major newspapers largely ignored a key development in Frank Wuterich’s Article 32 hearing.

As reported by Nat Helms — who is covering the hearing for NewsMax as well as for the "Defend our Marines" Web site — the prosecution’s star witness all but collapsed on the witness stand after a withering cross-examination.

Wrote Helms: “During four hours of cross examination by defense attorney Lt. Col. Colby C. Vokey, Dela Cruz was unable to clearly explain his previous testimony. At one point he simply stopped talking and stared into the distance, seemingly at a loss for words. At other times he simply rambled on until he was ordered to quit talking.”

Richard Thompson is president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, a legal advocacy group that has represented Marine Lt. Colonel Jeffrey Chessani, who was charged with failing to fully investigate and report Iraqi civilian deaths in Haditha. Thompson wrote:

“The government has spared no expense seeking to find wrongdoing on the part of our hard-fighting Marines. They should spend like resources investigating … allegations of investigatory misconduct.”

© 2007 NewsMax. All rights reserved.

PostmodernProphet
09-06-2007, 08:21 AM
Railroading Of Haditha Soldiers

why "railroading"?.....they are being tried by an American military tribunal, with American military defense lawyers, American military judges, based upon testimony by American military witnesses.....

why do you assume they won't get a fair trial?......

glockmail
09-06-2007, 08:23 AM
Duh. Did you read post 2? It proves the accusations in post 1.

PostmodernProphet
09-06-2007, 08:28 AM
to me, you both sound like the liberals who whine that the terrorists can't get a 'fair' trial in front of a military tribunal......

if a US soldier does something wrong, do you think the others in his squad shouldn't testify against him?.....that the military shouldn't investigate and bring charges?.....

glockmail
09-06-2007, 08:32 AM
to me, you both sound like the liberals who whine that the terrorists can't get a 'fair' trial in front of a military tribunal......

if a US soldier does something wrong, do you think the others in his squad shouldn't testify against him?.....that the military shouldn't investigate and bring charges?.....
Then you couldn't have read the NewsMax report.

I think if there is a trial then the defense should see all the evidence, not just what the prosecution doctored. This prosecutor has pulled a "Nifong" on these Marines, and should be held to account.

diuretic
09-06-2007, 09:05 AM
Well if they did and they wanted to keep it a secret then it's sort of out of the bag now eh?

If there's any evidence of that activity I'm sure the defence will be all over it because I would imagine that Newsmax has provided all this information to the defence counsel.

PostmodernProphet
09-06-2007, 09:12 AM
sorry, but I don't believe anything I read in NewsMax or Salon.com......

Gaffer
09-06-2007, 10:06 AM
The last I heard all charges against all the Marines had been dropped and only the one against the investigating officer was still on going and that was expected to be dropped as well. This was obviously a railroad job and you can bet it goes back to a certain congressman named murtha. He wanted the convictions so he could be proven right.

After the last charge gets dropped the Marines charged will be suing murtha for slander and liable. I really want to see that pig taken down.

glockmail
09-06-2007, 10:55 AM
sorry, but I don't believe anything I read in NewsMax or Salon.com...... That's dumb. Even a pure opinion piece will have snippets of facts. Its up to the reader to asertain what is usable information.

PostmodernProphet
09-06-2007, 12:54 PM
Its up to the reader to asertain what is usable information.

and besides choosing to believe it.....how did you "ascertain" that this particular snippet from Newsmax was true?

Gunny
09-06-2007, 04:16 PM
Then you couldn't have read the NewsMax report.

I think if there is a trial then the defense should see all the evidence, not just what the prosecution doctored. This prosecutor has pulled a "Nifong" on these Marines, and should be held to account.

I don't believe that. Court martial proceeding are automatically sent to the next higher authority for review. I haven't met too many Marine Corps officers who were willing to perjure themselves for a conviction.

Fact is, Marine Corps court martials are slam-dunks. The Article 32 hearing pretty much determines guilt or innocence even though it is called a "fact finding hearing." If the Article 32 hearing determines there is enough evidence to go to trial, it more than likely means there's enough evidence to convict, or the SJA won't prosecute.

glockmail
09-06-2007, 08:28 PM
and besides choosing to believe it.....how did you "ascertain" that this particular snippet from Newsmax was true? Read the quotes and other facts, then google if you want confirmation. Its fairly eay to determine what portion of an article is fact, waht is conjecture, and what is pure opinion. EVERY report is biased, so you have to excercise your brain cells constantly. Even a "dry" source, such as a history book, is biased.

glockmail
09-06-2007, 08:31 PM
I don't believe that. Court martial proceeding are automatically sent to the next higher authority for review. I haven't met too many Marine Corps officers who were willing to perjure themselves for a conviction.

Fact is, Marine Corps court martials are slam-dunks. The Article 32 hearing pretty much determines guilt or innocence even though it is called a "fact finding hearing." If the Article 32 hearing determines there is enough evidence to go to trial, it more than likely means there's enough evidence to convict, or the SJA won't prosecute. In todays pollitically charged evnironment, don't you think certain Marines will forsake hid honor to score points? Marines are no different than most in that regard.

diuretic
09-06-2007, 08:36 PM
I would think that anyone who is socialised into a military force such as the USMC would find it very difficult to deliberately and with plenty of time to think about it go way outside the expected code of behaviour. I'm not saying it's not possible, just it would be very difficult for the individual. I'm not referring to action in "hot blood" as it were and I'm not making a reference to the courts martial under discussion.

PostmodernProphet
09-06-2007, 08:38 PM
okay, googled.....found no other claims that the government edited the video so that it was more damaging to the soldiers.....

Psychoblues
09-06-2007, 09:13 PM
Just how does US military jurisprudence work?


"Maj. Gen. Richard Huck, Col. Stephen Davis and Col. Robert Sokoloski all received letters of censure for their responses to the killings in Haditha, the Marines said in a statement.

Lt. Gen James Mattis, a senior Marine general looking into the officers' conduct, concluded they did not intend to cover up the case or break military laws.

"He did determine that their actions, or inactions, demonstrated lack of due diligence on the part of senior commanders and staff," the statement said.

Iraqi witnesses say U.S. troops massacred two dozen unarmed men, women and children at Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005, in retaliation for the death of one of their comrades.

Lawyers for the defendants say the civilians died during a chaotic house-to-house battle in the western Iraqi town."

Much More: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N05241896.htm

I've seen more deliberation and more severe punishment for unauthorized use of floor wax.

glockmail
09-07-2007, 06:12 AM
okay, googled.....found no other claims that the government edited the video so that it was more damaging to the soldiers.....
The fact is that the video was 8 to 10 hours long, and the prosecuter only gave the defense one hour of it. The claim of "more damaging" is the opinion.

PostmodernProphet
09-07-2007, 06:55 AM
The fact is that the video was 8 to 10 hours long, and the prosecuter only gave the defense one hour of it. The claim of "more damaging" is the opinion.


and I suspect an alternate 'opinion' might be that the plane didn't hang around outside that particular house for ten hours.....NewsMax has chosen it's position, so have you.....however, I have seen no facts that support that either is true.....I fully expect, under law, that if the defense counsel demanded a copy of the full ten hours, they would get it......

Gunny
09-07-2007, 08:35 AM
In todays pollitically charged evnironment, don't you think certain Marines will forsake hid honor to score points? Marines are no different than most in that regard.

There are no real points to score in military justice.

glockmail
09-07-2007, 12:36 PM
and I suspect an alternate 'opinion' might be that the plane didn't hang around outside that particular house for ten hours.....NewsMax has chosen it's position, so have you.....however, I have seen no facts that support that either is true.....I fully expect, under law, that if the defense counsel demanded a copy of the full ten hours, they would get it...... What you assert would not an opinion, but an out-and-out lie by Newsmax.

PostmodernProphet
09-07-2007, 01:06 PM
???....if you asked me if I think Newsmax lied?.....yes, I think they lie as frequently as Salon.com......

glockmail
09-07-2007, 03:00 PM
???....if you asked me if I think Newsmax lied?.....yes, I think they lie as frequently as Salon.com......
Can you prove it?

PostmodernProphet
09-07-2007, 04:31 PM
Can you prove it?


can I prove the truth of my statement?.....that I believe they lie?.....no, you're just going to have to take my word for it.....I may be lying to you about my beliefs.....