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johnwk
06-13-2011, 01:37 PM
On June 11th, 2011, while appearing on FoxNews, Journal Editorial Report, Herman Cain in defending the “fairtax” (H.R. 25) made the following statement in response to the fear that we would still pay taxes calculated from incomes under the fairtax. Herman Cain stated:


”In the legislation there is a clause that says the fairtax cannot go into effect until the 16th Amendment is repealed. So that puts pressure on the States and on Congress to repeal the 16th Amendment before the fairtax, the national consumption tax, goes into effect.”


The truth is, if H.R. 25 were adopted by Congress the 23 percent tax goes into effect immediately. However, if after a seven year period, during which time the America People most certainly will get comfortable to paying and complying with the tax, and the Sixteenth Amendment is not repealed, Congress will presumably end the 23 percent tax. And if one believe that baloney ….


Here is the text of H.R. 25:


TITLE IV--SUNSET OF SALES TAX IF SIXTEENTH AMENDMENT NOT REPEALED
SEC. 401. ELIMINATION OF SALES TAX IF SIXTEENTH AMENDMENT NOT REPEALED.


“If the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States is not repealed before the end of the 7-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this Act, then all provisions of, and amendments made by, this Act shall not apply to any use or consumption in any year beginning after December 31 of the calendar year in which or with which such period ends, except that the Sales Tax Bureau of the Department of the Treasury shall not be terminated until 6 months after such December 31.”


So, Herman Cain has in fact misrepresented the fairtax when stating it will not go into effect until the 16th Amendment is repealed.


But let’s pretend H.R. 25 is adopted and the Sixteenth Amendment is repealed before the seven year period. Well surprise, surprise! Congress still maintains power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains and other income. For example, prior to the adoption of the 16th Amendment Congress adopted the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 which was calculated from profits and gains, and it was upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy. Also prior to the adoption of the 16th Amendment Congress laid a tax calculated from income during the Civil War and this tax was likewise upheld in Springer vs. United States. And so, the repeal of the 16th Amendment as it is worded in H.J. RES 16 [the fair tax companion legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment] is totally meaningless and an illusion to end taxes calculated from profits, gains, and other incomes unless specific language is contained in the repeal forbidding Congress to lay any tax calculated from income, e.g., The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money


I have tried for years to get the ringleaders of the “fair tax” to adopt the above wording into their repeal of the 16th Amendment, but they persist in refusing to adopt such language. Why?


So, the question is, why does Herman Cain continue to misrepresent what H.R. 25 would actually accomplish?


Finally, why does Herman Cain not support the following tax reform which also would deal with annual deficits?



Proposing a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution of the United States.


“SECTION 1. The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money


NOTE: these words would return us to our founding father’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN (http://townshipnews.org/?p=1360) as they intended it to operate! These words would remove the existing chains of taxation which Congress now uses to enslave America‘s businesses, its industrial and manufacturing base, and they would end the slavish tax which now confiscates the bread which working people have earned!


"SECTION 2. Congress ought not raise money by borrowing, but when the money arising from imposts duties and excise taxes are insufficient to meet the public exigencies, and Congress has raised money by borrowing during the course of a fiscal year, Congress shall then lay a direct tax at the beginning of the next fiscal year for an amount sufficient to extinguish the preceding fiscal year's deficit, and apply the revenue so raised to extinguishing said deficit."


NOTE: Congress is to raise its primary revenue from imposts and duties, [taxes at our water’s edge], and may also lay miscellaneous internal excise taxes on specifically chosen articles of consumption. But if Congress spends more than is brought in from imposts, duties and miscellaneous excise taxes during the course of a fiscal year, then, and only then, is the apportioned tax to be laid.


"SECTION 3. When Congress is required to lay a direct tax in accordance with Section 1 of this Article, the Secretary of the United States Treasury shall, in a timely manner, calculate each State's apportioned share of the total sum being raised by dividing its total population size by the total population of the united states and multiplying that figure by the total being raised by Congress, and then provide the various State Congressional Delegations with a Bill notifying their State’s Executive and Legislature of its share of the total tax being collected and a final date by which said tax shall be paid into the United States Treasury."


NOTE: our founder’s fair share formula to extinguish a deficit would be:


States’ population

---------------------------- X SUM TO BE RAISED = STATE’S SHARE

Total U.S. Population



This is to insure that those states who contribute the lion’s share of the tax are guaranteed a representation in Congress proportionately equal to contribution, i.e., representation with proportional obligation!


"SECTION 4. Each State shall be free to assume and pay its quota of the direct tax into the United States Treasury by a final date set by Congress, but if any State shall refuse or neglect to pay its quota, then Congress shall send forth its officers to assess and levy such State's proportion against the real property within the State with interest thereon at the rate of ((?)) per cent per annum, and against the individual owners of the taxable property. Provision shall be made for a 15% discount for those States paying their share by ((?))of the fiscal year in which the tax is laid, and a 10% discount for States paying by the final date set by Congress, such discount being to defray the States' cost of collection."


This section respects the Tenth Amendment and allows each state to raise its share in its own chosen way in a time period set by Congress, but also allows the federal government to enter a state and collect the tax if a state is delinquent in meeting its obligation.


Bottom line is, why is Herman Cain misrepresenting the “fairtax” and not supporting a return to our Constitution’s original tax plan?


JWK



Are we really to believe the founder of fairtax.org., Leo E. Linbeck Jr. and Herman Cain, both former ringleaders of the federal reserve banking cartel which plunders our national treasury?

darin
06-13-2011, 02:03 PM
I'd hope you'd have the balls to just claim he 'lied'. Maybe he was simply wrong, or mistaken, or understands things differently than you?

DragonStryk72
06-13-2011, 02:57 PM
I'd hope you'd have the balls to just claim he 'lied'. Maybe he was simply wrong, or mistaken, or understands things differently than you?

Or maybe he just wants to jump up and down like a child again, and scream about the fair tax. After all, jwk has already stated he's not here to debate.

to JWK: Go read every single other thread you've posted on this subject, and go sit off in that corner you keep hiding in every other time you've been put to task on this. You aren't even worth the time or energy it would take to just tell you you're wrong again, on the same subject as you've been told so repeatedly. You are stuck on the word IF, and you haven't actually refuted me and fj from the others attempts. Just throw in some poor spelled and worded curses, and let's all just move on. there are better things to do.

johnwk
06-13-2011, 03:18 PM
Or maybe he just wants to jump up and down like a child again, and scream about the fair tax. After all, jwk has already stated he's not here to debate.



My interest is to always get to the truth and facts.


I still would like to know why Herman Cain misrepresented the fairtax while on FoxNews and why he wasn‘t questioned on his misrepresentation. Herman Cain’s exact words were: ”In the legislation there is a clause that says the fairtax cannot go into effect until the 16th Amendment is repealed. So that puts pressure on the States and on Congress to repeal the 16th Amendment before the fairtax, the national consumption tax, goes into effect.”


But the truth is, if H.R. 25 were adopted, the 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured property, and, the 23 percent tax upon the selling price of property which working people have in their labor, would both take effect immediately, and not only after the 16th Amendment is repealed. Why is Herman Cain misrepresenting the alleged “fairtax”? Is he trying to hide what the proposal really is, which is a clever proposal for a massive expansion of what Congress may tax?


I would also like to know why Herman Cain supports creating a new entitlement, the “fairtax” family consumption entitlement which would be the largest ever in America’s history and proposes to put every American family on a monthly government subsistence check, which would make a majority of voters dependent upon the federal government for paying the tax on a rationed supply of their necessities of life.


In addition, Herman Cain’s “fairtax” entitlement would send a monthly bonus check to those who are not gainfully employed and already on the public dole. Why does Herman Cain want to reward and give a monthly bonus to the unproductive with another entitlement check which is financed by the productive who work to pay for their keep?


There was a time in America when even the unemployed were expected and required to contribute their fair share in meeting the expenses of government. A wonderful example of this principle is exhibited in the public laws of Maryland’s Dorchester County, under which all able bodied residents of the county above twenty and under fifty years of age were “compelled to labor two days at least in every year in repairing the roads of said county, with the privilege, however, of furnishing a substitute or paying to the road supervisors seventy-five cents for each day such person may be summoned to labor, the money thus paid to be expended in repairing the roads.”


And the law went on to indicate that “anyone neglecting or refusing to perform such labor, or to provide a substitute, or to pay seventy-five cents per day for each and every day he may be summoned to work, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon trial and conviction before a Justice of the Peace, shall be fined seventy-five cents for each day`s delinquency and costs, and shall stand committed until the fine and costs are paid.”___ SEE SHORT vs. STATE OF MARYLAND, decided February 27th, 1895, upholding the law and not violating (a) the 13th or 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, or (b) the 40th section of Art. 3 of the Constitution of Maryland.


So, why is Herman Cain so willing to tax the productive to make the unproductive easy in their laziness? Should they not be required to work for the taxes they get?


And why is it that our “conservative” talk show hosts fail to ask Herman Cain to address these specific issues, nor why he chooses to not support a return to our Constitution’s original tax plan which is explained at the top of this thread? And who among the following list of “conservative” talk show hosts has ever taken the time to discuss our Constitution’s original tax plan as our founding fathers intended it to operate? Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Laura Ingraham, Schnitt, Mark Levin, Dennis Prager, Bill O'rielly, Mike Gallagher, Lee Rodgers, Neal Boortz. Tammy Bruce, Monica Crowley …. WHO? And yet, many of the above give a thumbs up to the alleged fairtax. Why?


Something stinks like a fish when our “conservative” talk show hosts give a thumbs up to the fairtax and Herman Cain who is willing to tax the productive to make the unproductive easy in their laziness using his family consumption entitlement. Should the unproductive at least be required to work for the taxes they get?


JWK


Our tyrant in the White House forces the productive to pay taxes so he can spread their wealth, but he does not force his beloved 40 % who pay no income taxes to work for the taxes they get.

fj1200
06-13-2011, 09:58 PM
My interest is to always get to the truth and facts.

No it's not. Don't kid yourself.

DragonStryk72
06-13-2011, 10:46 PM
My interest is to always get to the truth and facts.




Now that's just an out and out lie, because we have provided you with facts, and all you do is jump on your same tired old argument. Your time here is both sad, and almost pitiable if it weren't for your clear cut narcissism.

DragonStryk72
06-13-2011, 10:48 PM
I still would like to know why Herman Cain misrepresented the fairtax while on FoxNews and why he wasn‘t questioned on his misrepresentation. Herman Cain’s exact words were: ”In the legislation there is a clause that says the fairtax cannot go into effect until the 16th Amendment is repealed. So that puts pressure on the States and on Congress to repeal the 16th Amendment before the fairtax, the national consumption tax, goes into effect.”


But the truth is, if H.R. 25 were adopted, the 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured property, and, the 23 percent tax upon the selling price of property which working people have in their labor, would both take effect immediately, and not only after the 16th Amendment is repealed. Why is Herman Cain misrepresenting the alleged “fairtax”? Is he trying to hide what the proposal really is, which is a clever proposal for a massive expansion of what Congress may tax?


I would also like to know why Herman Cain supports creating a new entitlement, the “fairtax” family consumption entitlement which would be the largest ever in America’s history and proposes to put every American family on a monthly government subsistence check, which would make a majority of voters dependent upon the federal government for paying the tax on a rationed supply of their necessities of life.


In addition, Herman Cain’s “fairtax” entitlement would send a monthly bonus check to those who are not gainfully employed and already on the public dole. Why does Herman Cain want to reward and give a monthly bonus to the unproductive with another entitlement check which is financed by the productive who work to pay for their keep?


There was a time in America when even the unemployed were expected and required to contribute their fair share in meeting the expenses of government. A wonderful example of this principle is exhibited in the public laws of Maryland’s Dorchester County, under which all able bodied residents of the county above twenty and under fifty years of age were “compelled to labor two days at least in every year in repairing the roads of said county, with the privilege, however, of furnishing a substitute or paying to the road supervisors seventy-five cents for each day such person may be summoned to labor, the money thus paid to be expended in repairing the roads.”


And the law went on to indicate that “anyone neglecting or refusing to perform such labor, or to provide a substitute, or to pay seventy-five cents per day for each and every day he may be summoned to work, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon trial and conviction before a Justice of the Peace, shall be fined seventy-five cents for each day`s delinquency and costs, and shall stand committed until the fine and costs are paid.”___ SEE SHORT vs. STATE OF MARYLAND, decided February 27th, 1895, upholding the law and not violating (a) the 13th or 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, or (b) the 40th section of Art. 3 of the Constitution of Maryland.


So, why is Herman Cain so willing to tax the productive to make the unproductive easy in their laziness? Should they not be required to work for the taxes they get?


And why is it that our “conservative” talk show hosts fail to ask Herman Cain to address these specific issues, nor why he chooses to not support a return to our Constitution’s original tax plan which is explained at the top of this thread? And who among the following list of “conservative” talk show hosts has ever taken the time to discuss our Constitution’s original tax plan as our founding fathers intended it to operate? Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Laura Ingraham, Schnitt, Mark Levin, Dennis Prager, Bill O'rielly, Mike Gallagher, Lee Rodgers, Neal Boortz. Tammy Bruce, Monica Crowley …. WHO? And yet, many of the above give a thumbs up to the alleged fairtax. Why?


Something stinks like a fish when our “conservative” talk show hosts give a thumbs up to the fairtax and Herman Cain who is willing to tax the productive to make the unproductive easy in their laziness using his family consumption entitlement. Should the unproductive at least be required to work for the taxes they get?


JWK


Our tyrant in the White House forces the productive to pay taxes so he can spread their wealth, but he does not force his beloved 40 % who pay no income taxes to work for the taxes they get.


Again, go read every single other thread you've posted on the Fair Tax. Stop wasting our time.

johnwk
06-14-2011, 06:48 AM
Again, go read every single other thread you've posted on the Fair Tax. Stop wasting our time.



Translation: You don't want to deal with the fact Herman Cain is a freaken liar as I documented above!


JWK


Are we really to believe the founder of fairtax.org., Leo E. Linbeck Jr. and Herman Cain, both former ringleaders of the federal reserve banking cartel which plunders our national treasury?

DragonStryk72
06-14-2011, 10:36 AM
Translation: JWK is a humongous prick with no life, who doesn't want to debate. All hw wants is to manipulate others words, and jump up and down like a troll.

JWK




There, corrected for accuracy. JWK, I say absolutely nothing other than what I directly, and exactly mean to say. Everyone on here has pretty much given up on you uttering anything worth hearing. again, go to any other thread that you pussied out of on this same subject, read it, and go back to cry in your corner.

There is no sarcasm in the above. I mean it precisely.

johnwk
06-14-2011, 05:04 PM
There, corrected for accuracy. JWK, I say absolutely nothing other than what I directly, and exactly mean to say. Everyone on here has pretty much given up on you uttering anything worth hearing. again, go to any other thread that you pussied out of on this same subject, read it, and go back to cry in your corner.

There is no sarcasm in the above. I mean it precisely.



As I correctly wrote, you don't want to deal with the fact Herman Cain is a freaken liar as I documented above!


JWK


If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [Herman Cain's fairtax family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

jimnyc
06-14-2011, 05:06 PM
As I correctly wrote, you don't want to deal with the fact Herman Cain is a freaken liar as I documented above!

Is he a liar or someone who misspoke? Can you prove he is this liar who set out to deceive? If not, he simply made a mistake.

Gaffer
06-14-2011, 06:05 PM
As I correctly wrote, you don't want to deal with the fact Herman Cain is a freaken liar as I documented above!


JWK


If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [Herman Cain's fairtax family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

I didn't know Cain was a democrat. Sounds like he's a czar in the present administration. Why the CDS? Did you get fired from a Godfathers Pizza restaurant?

DragonStryk72
06-14-2011, 07:38 PM
As I correctly wrote, you don't want to deal with the fact Herman Cain is a freaken liar as I documented above!


JWK



Oh look, misspelled almost swearing. Gee, it's almost like I referenced that earlier in the thread, as if somehow, your arguments are the same repetitious crap moved from thread to thread, until you can't come up with an argument again, and then we come back to a week or two later.

johnwk
06-14-2011, 08:30 PM
Is he a liar or someone who misspoke? Can you prove he is this liar who set out to deceive? If not, he simply made a mistake.

Herman has been promoting the "fairtax" on the radio for years along with Neal Boortz and the very issue about the American People winding up with the 23 percent tax and existing taxes calculated from incomes has been raised a number of times, including the seven year sunset provision. But Cain and Boortz give the same packaged answer over and over, that the "fairtax" will not take effect until the 16th Amendment is repealed.

But you could be correct, only Herman Cain knows what is in his own mind, and maybe he has not read the bill and intends to find out what's in it if it ever were to pass, just like the health care bill.

JWK

johnwk
06-14-2011, 09:14 PM
I didn't know Cain was a democrat. Sounds like he's a czar in the present administration. Why the CDS? Did you get fired from a Godfathers Pizza restaurant?

Herman Cain in my opinion is an opportunist who decided to run because he knew he would have an instant following from “fairtax” supporters. As a matter of fact, he was encouraged to run by many of his talk show listeners. Unfortunately, I have not found one supporter of the "fairtax" who has actually read the text of the bill, and those I know who have studied the actual text of the proposal have come to many of the same conclusions that I have.

In regard to Godfather’s Pizza, I’ve owned my own business since the mid 1960’s and have been quite successful, but I did try Godfather’s pizza once and it's crap, and doesn’t come close the NYC Pizza sold at Lombardi’s in Soho, or Ray's, in the Village.

JWK

Our tyrant in the White House forces the productive to pay taxes so he can spread their wealth, but he does not force his beloved 40 % who pay no income taxes to work for the taxes they get.

fj1200
06-14-2011, 09:22 PM
Herman Cain in my opinion is an opportunist who decided to run because he knew he would have an instant following from “fairtax” supporters. As a matter of fact, he was encouraged to run by many of his talk show listeners. Unfortunately, I have not found one supporter of the "fairtax" who has actually read the text of the bill, and those I know who have studied the actual text of the proposal have come to many of the same conclusions that I have.

Such the damning evidence there. :rolleyes: Considering that he has run for office before I'd say he's shown an interest in serving his country.


In regard to Godfather’s Pizza, I’ve owned my own business since the mid 1960’s and have been quite successful, but I did try Godfather’s pizza once and it's crap, and doesn’t come close the NYC Pizza sold at Lombardi’s in Soho, or Ray's, in the Village.

Quite the political analysis there, no wonder you have it out for HC.

johnwk
06-15-2011, 06:38 AM
Such the damning evidence there. :rolleyes: Considering that he has run for office before I'd say he's shown an interest in serving his country.


.

Just like he served his country working with the Federal Reserve which has been plundering what America's businesses and labor have produced with its Notes made a "legal tender" in defiance of our founder's prohibition to make notes of any kind a legal tender.


Hmmmmmm, I see your pal, Leo Linbeck, founder of fairtax.org was also part of the federal reserve money laundering operation. Guess the federal reserve bankers need that expansion of Congress' taxing authority under the "fairtax" to insure interest will be paid on their federal reserve monopoly "notes"


JWK


History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance. ___ James Madison

fj1200
06-15-2011, 11:05 PM
Just like he served his country working with the Federal Reserve which has been plundering what America's businesses and labor have produced with its Notes made a "legal tender" in defiance of our founder's prohibition to make notes of any kind a legal tender.

:laugh: The talking points list running a little low?


Hmmmmmm, I see your pal, Leo Linbeck, founder of fairtax.org was also part of the federal reserve money laundering operation.

:eek: :rolleyes: Get some new material man.