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View Full Version : Romney: Govt disaster relief is immoral and should be privatized. Is he right?



Little-Acorn
06-18-2011, 01:29 PM
Mitt Romney recently said something to the effect that Federal assistance to the flood and tornado victims in the Midwest, is "immoral" and should be privatized. Predictably, a few leftists are seizing the opportunity to announce that Romney opposes all disaster relief, and all that usual tripe.

But in fact, the people who wrote and ratified the Constitution apparently agreed with Romney. At least, they wrote a passage into the Fundamental Law of the Land forbidding such relief from the Fed govt.

Article One Section Eight says:


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To highlight some relevant parts without taking them out of context:


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

And then string them together:


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes to provide for the general Welfare of the United States;

What the so-called "Welfare clause" really says, is that the Fed govt can have the power to collect taxes, but is only authorized to spend them only on certain things. When the country was first founded, the Constitution hadn't been written, and wouldn't be for another dozen years. The country ran under the Artricles of Confederation instead - a document that loosely bound the new states together to act almost like small, independently-functioning cooperating countries. And the AoC gave the central government NO power to levy taxes at all. It could only ask states for contributions - a request the states often wound up shortchanging or ignoring altogether.

The AoC was so weak, that the new Constitution replaced it... including a carefully-worded clause giving the new government the power to collect taxes, but carefully restricting what it could spend them on.

Keep in mind that "general welfare" had a very specific meaning at that time. It referred ONLY to programs that would help everyone in the country the same amount; and specifically excluded programs that helped only partial groups or sections of the country.

Even when it was first written, this clause caused arguments between some of the Founding Fathers themselves, notably between James Madison who advocate small govt, and Alexander Hamilton who wanted bigger govt. But they weren't arguing over whether it gave the Fed govt permission to spend everything on everybody. Both agreed that it did nothing of the kind. They only argued whether it applied solely to the functions explicitly written in the Constitution already, or whether it gave permission for a few extra programs that would help everyone in the nation equally but were not explicitly written in the document.

In fact, they all agreed that this "General Welfare clause" is a RESTRICTION on Fed govt spending, not a broad permission to spend whatever it wants on anything that might help anybody. If it were the kind of broad permission that today's leftist fanatics dream of, then 3/4 of the rest of the Constitution would be irrelevant - the parts that specifically authorize the govt to run the military, courts, post roads, foreign relations etc.

This fact is something the leftist fanatics are desperate to keep people from learning. It takes away their most cherished fib in support of their Government-Uber-Alles agenda.

As I mentioned, Mitt Romney recently said something to the effect that Federal assistance to the flood and tornado victims in the Midwest, is "immoral" and should be privatized. Predictably, the leftist screamers quote the first part, carefully leave out the second, and then lie about it, pretending that Romney opposes all disaster relief. It's a response typical of those who would rather incite hysterical mobs than find solutions.

Who is more "immoral" - Mitt Romney, or the screaming mad leftists who lie about him and try to get government to forcibly take the money people could have donated themselves... and even bind our children and grandchildren to debts they never asked for?

States, of course, are free to donate as much as they like to disaster relief (unlike the Fed govt, which violates the Constitution when it does this)... and so are any and all private relief groups, as Romney advocates. In a country that spends literally billions every year on vacations, lavish cellphone contracts, Presidential campaigns, and Starbucks coffee, clearly programs to help the disaster victims are very possible.

If as much advertising were aimed at such a worthwhile cause as is currently aimed at the fripperies, is there any reason to think it won't be equally (or more) effective? The leftist screamers insist they won't work, against all available evidence... but all that really means, is that the leftist screamers are unable (and perhaps unwilling) to do it.

How much is, in fact, donated privately by normal Americans to help disaster victims, not only here but around the world... even as our government takes more and more from us, leaving us less to donate?

Far from being "immoral", Romney's advocacy of private assistance to disaster victims is (and has always been) the most generous way to help those in need. It is, in fact, moral. And even legal.

Too bad we can't say the same for the leftist fanatics' big-government schemes.

Kathianne
06-18-2011, 01:36 PM
interesting post. Thanks. Are the 'discussions' in the Federalist papers? If so, do you have the relevant numbers?

LuvRPgrl
06-18-2011, 01:49 PM
Yes

Little-Acorn
06-18-2011, 02:29 PM
interesting post. Thanks. Are the 'discussions' in the Federalist papers? If so, do you have the relevant numbers?

Wikipedia points to some of them:


The two primary authors of The Federalist essays set forth two separate, conflicting interpretations:

James Madison advocated for the ratification of the Constitution in The Federalist and at the Virginia ratifying convention upon a narrow construction of the clause, asserting that spending must be at least tangentially tied to one of the other specifically enumerated powers, such as regulating interstate or foreign commerce, or providing for the military, as the General Welfare Clause is not a specific grant of power, but a statement of purpose qualifying the power to tax.[16][17]

Alexander Hamilton, only after the Constitution had been ratified, argued for a broad interpretation which viewed spending as an enumerated power Congress could exercise independently to benefit the general welfare, such as to assist national needs in agriculture or education, provided that the spending is general in nature and does not favor any specific section of the country over any other.[18]

-----------------------
[16] Madison, The Federalist No. 41 General View of the Powers Conferred by The Constitution, The Independent Journal
[17] Madison, James. (3 March 1817) Letter to the House of Representatives,Veto of federal public works bill, March 3, 1817
[18] Hamilton, Alexander. (5 December 1791) "Report on Manufactures" The Papers of Alexander Hamilton (ed. by H.C. Syrett et al.; New York and London: Columbia University Press, 1961-79)

Little-Acorn
06-18-2011, 03:40 PM
BTW, it turns out that Romney never said that Federal disaster relief was immoral, at all.

From the transcript of what actually WAS said:

KING: Governor Romney? You’ve been a chief executive of a state. I was just in Joplin, Missouri. I’ve been in Mississippi and Louisiana and Tennessee and other communities dealing with whether it’s the tornadoes, the flooding, and worse. FEMA is about to run out of money, and there are some people who say do it on a case-by-case basis and some people who say, you know, maybe we’re learning a lesson here that the states should take on more of this role. How do you deal with something like that?

ROMNEY: Absolutely. Every time you have an occasion to take something from the federal government and send it back to the states, that’s the right direction. And if you can go even further and send it back to the private sector, that’s even better.

Instead of thinking in the federal budget, what we should cut — we should ask ourselves the opposite question. What should we keep? We should take all of what we’re doing at the federal level and say, what are the things we’re doing that we don’t have to do? And those things we’ve got to stop doing, because we’re borrowing $1.6 trillion more this year than we’re taking in. We cannot…

KING: Including disaster relief, though?

ROMNEY: We cannot — we cannot afford to do those things without jeopardizing the future for our kids. It is simply immoral, in my view, for us to continue to rack up larger and larger debts and pass them on to our kids, knowing full well that we’ll all be dead and gone before it’s paid off. It makes no sense at all.

Now we find out that the screaming mad leftists even lied about his original quote, too.

He was talking about the idea that the states and the people should be dealing with many of the things the Fed govt has usurped (including disaster relief), and that it was immoral to keep racking up huge debts for our children and grandchildren to pay.

Shoulda known. :dunno: My apologies, all. That's what I get for assuming that something a leftist told me about a conservative, or even a semi-conservative, was true.

revelarts
06-18-2011, 06:04 PM
Acorn you typically ignore post post like this but
I'd like you and others here to answer a question for me?

Which one of the 2 candidates is closer to the framers views on the constitution ...
Ron Paul or Mitt Romney?

Kathianne
06-18-2011, 06:09 PM
Acorn you typically ignore post post like this but
I'd like you and others here to answer a question for me?

Which one of the 2 candidates is closer to the framers views on the constitution ...
Ron Paul or Mitt Romney?

Who cares? Ron Paul is a nutter. I'm not keen on Romney either, but he's more than a bit better than the nutter. Racist.

Little-Acorn
06-18-2011, 06:58 PM
Acorn you typically ignore post post like this
Now why do you suppose I do that? ;)


but
I'd like you and others here to answer a question for me?

Which one of the 2 candidates is closer to the framers views on the constitution ...
Ron Paul or Mitt Romney?

Were you going to open your own thread on this subject? Or are you deliberately trying to hijack this one?

fj1200
06-18-2011, 07:53 PM
Privatized? As in insurance? The F' you say!!!

revelarts
06-18-2011, 08:11 PM
Now why do you suppose I do that? ;)


Frankly Acorn i think it's because your a pretty decent rational person that doesn't a have good rational response.




Were you going to open your own thread on this subject? Or are you deliberately trying to hijack this one?

Theread is about how constitutional a supposed quote of Mitt Romey's was.
Being a republican candidate.
You promoted the virtues of his Constitutional position.
I point out that another candidate is even more consitutional.

and kath throw insults we'd epect from the left,
Graffer agrees and
you sir avoid the question.

So all I'm left to assume is that the U.S. Constitution is not the primary concern for some on the right.

Mitt Romey is not bad on some issues but Off on civil liberties, off on gun rights, off on health care to name a few main points.


If it were about a constitutional candiate Ron Paul would have the nomination.
If we just look at the issues the records and constitution.

Gaffer
06-18-2011, 08:20 PM
Let me be clear here Rev. I don't like romney for the same reasons you don't. I also don't like Paul because he's a nut. He is a strict isolationist and hasn't figured out that we are at war with islam. He's not even on my radar as a candidate.

Little-Acorn
06-18-2011, 08:23 PM
Frankly Acorn i think it's because your a pretty decent rational person that doesn't a have good rational response.

Wrong guess.


Theread is about how constitutional a supposed quote of Mitt Romey's was.
Nope. The thread is about whether Romney's opinion that Federal disaster relief should be privatized, is right.

Once again, are you going to open your own thread, about the other subject you wanted to discuss? So it won't look like you are trying to change the subject here and/or hijack this thread?

Kathianne
06-18-2011, 08:25 PM
Frankly Acorn i think it's because your a pretty decent rational person that doesn't a have good rational response.




Theread is about how constitutional a supposed quote of Mitt Romey's was.
Being a republican candidate.
You promoted the virtues of his Constitutional position.
I point out that another candidate is even more consitutional.

and kath throw insults we'd epect from the left,
Graffer agrees and
you sir avoid the question.

So all I'm left to assume is that the U.S. Constitution is not the primary concern for some on the right.

Mitt Romey is not bad on some issues but Off on civil liberties, off on gun rights, off on health care to name a few main points.


If it were about a constitutional candiate Ron Paul would have the nomination.
If we just look at the issues the records and constitution.

I'm left of you? Perhaps, but not necessarily. That I think Ron Paul a racist and nutter? Without doubt. He is.

revelarts
06-18-2011, 08:52 PM
Wrong guess.

your not a decent rational person?;)



Nope. The thread is about whether Romney's opinion that Federal disaster relief should be privatized, is right.

Once again, are you going to open your own thread, about the other subject you wanted to discuss? So it won't look like you are trying to change the subject here and/or hijack this thread?

"whether Romney's opinion that Federal disaster relief should be privatized, is right"
Um OK...
Ron Paul would agree with that and so do I.

revelarts
06-18-2011, 09:12 PM
Let me be clear here Rev. I don't like romney for the same reasons you don't. I also don't like Paul because he's a nut. He is a strict isolationist and hasn't figured out that we are at war with islam. He's not even on my radar as a candidate.

I didn't think you we're a Romney fan.

I think it nuts how far we gone from the constitution, and nuts that we keep electing people that are just a little right or a little left BUT mostly don't care about the Constitution.
We're a LOOONg way down a dark ally and I don't know anyone else really serious about the constitution except for the guy people keep calling Crazy.

If I see republicans vote in another HALF-@$$ --big gov't --corporate loving-- warmongering --politician I'm probably gonna puke.

We've had a faux good ole boy, Bush, bring us more govt and less constitution now we've got a slick Chicago lawyer bringing us more gov't and even less constitution.

Ron Paul is Probably more sane than both you and me Gaffer.
But I'd rather see an honest nut in the white house than another lying crook.



I'm left of you? Perhaps, but not necessarily. That I think Ron Paul a racist and nutter? Without doubt. He is.
uh no , no he's not.
Please show me a racist vote or statement or just stop trying to convince me of this.
There's got to be some evidence. If it where anyone else on the right being called a racist everyone here would be crying foul before even hearing the evidence. But somehow Paul doesn't get the right's Automatic Cover of OUTRAGE at the very charge of racism.

I don't get it.

But I don't want to "hijack" the thread on this.

Kathianne
06-18-2011, 09:25 PM
I didn't think you we're a Romney fan.

I think it nuts how far we gone from the constitution, and nuts that we keep electing people that are just a little right or a little left BUT mostly don't care about the Constitution.
We're a LOOONg way down a dark ally and I don't know anyone else really serious about the constitution except for the guy people keep calling Crazy.

If I see republicans vote in another HALF-@$$ --big gov't --corporate loving-- warmongering --politician I'm probably gonna puke.

We've had a faux good ole boy, Bush, bring us more govt and less constitution now we've got a slick Chicago lawyer bringing us more gov't and even less constitution.

Ron Paul is Probably more sane than both you and me Gaffer.
But I'd rather see an honest nut in the white house than another lying crook.



uh no , no he's not.
Please show me a racist vote or statement or just stop trying to convince me of this.
There's got to be some evidence. If it where anyone else on the right being called a racist everyone here would be crying foul before even hearing the evidence. But somehow Paul doesn't get the right's Automatic Cover of OUTRAGE at the very charge of racism.

I don't get it.

But I don't want to "hijack" the thread on this.

When Paul refused to distance himself from his own racist newsletters or the racist sites that were part of the Paul storms? Yeah, I blame him.

revelarts
06-18-2011, 10:22 PM
I'll be taking all undue Ron Paul Abuse over in the Ron Paul wins Straw poll thread please.
;)

---
But the General welfare clause was even thought written a bit loosely during that time.
the Anti Federalist Papers point it and several other legal openings for abuse of the wording of the Constitution.
Nearly all of them have been exploited just as they predicted.
Despite the clear intentions , written and spoken from the federalist papers and other letters and writings of the framers.
Patrick Henry was one of the writers of the Anti-Federalist papers.
this quote is from the writer alias "BRUTUS"
Anit-Federalist paper Brutus #6

http://www.constitution.org/afp/brutus06.htm



...But it is said, by some of the advocates of this system, "That the idea that Congress can levy taxes at pleasure, is false, and the suggestion wholly unsupported: that the preamble to the constitution is declaratory of the purposes of the union, and the assumption of any power not necessary to establish justice, &c. to provide for the common defence, &c. will be unconstitutional. Besides, in the very clause which gives the power of levying duties and taxes, the purposes to which the money shall be appropriated, are specified, viz. to pay the debts, and provide for the common defence and general welfare." I would ask those, who reason thus, to define what ideas are included under the terms, to provide for the common defence and general welfare? Are these terms definite, and will they be understood in the same manner, and to apply to the same cases by every one? No one will pretend they will. It will then be matter of opinion, what tends to the general welfare; and the Congress will be the only judges in the matter. To provide for the general welfare, is an abstract proposition, which mankind differ in the explanation of, as much as they do on any political or moral proposition that can be proposed; the most opposite measures may be pursued by different parties, and both may profess, that they have in view the general welfare; and both sides may be honest in their professions, or both may have sinister views. Those who advocate this new constitution declare, they are influenced by a regard to the general welfare; those who oppose it, declare they are moved by the same principle; and I have no doubt but a number on both sides are honest in their professions; and yet nothing is more certain than this, that to adopt this constitution, and not to adopt it, cannot both of them be promotive of the general welfare.

It is as absurd to say, that the power of Congress is limited by these general expressions, "to provide for the common safety, and general welfare," as it would be to say, that it would be limited, had the constitution said they should have power to lay taxes, &c. at will and pleasure. Were this authority given, it might be said, that under it the legislature could not do injustice, or pursue any measures, but such as were calculated to promote the public good, and happiness. For every man, rulers as well as others, are bound by the immutable laws of God and reason, always to will what is right. It is certainly right and fit, that the governors of every people should provide for the common defence and general welfare; every government, therefore, in the world, even the greatest despot, is limited in the exercise of his power. But however just this reasoning may be, it would be found, in practice, a most pitiful restriction. The government would always say, their measures were designed and calculated to promote the public good; and there being no judge between them and the people, the rulers themselves must, and would always, judge for themselves....

red states rule
06-19-2011, 06:34 AM
Is this the same Ron Paul who said America brought 9/11 on itself? What an asshole!

I thought you would have higher standards in selecting a candidate Rev

revelarts
06-19-2011, 09:07 AM
Is this the same Ron Paul who said America brought 9/11 on itself? What an asshole!

I thought you would have higher standards in selecting a candidate Rev

I'll Answer the that in the other thread.

red states rule
06-19-2011, 09:09 AM
I'll Answer the that in the other thread.

Here is the reason I can't stand him

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