Where's the outrage: Instead of mandating "safer" vehicles, let's learn to DRIVE

[darin]

Summary: Grandmother, Mother, Daughter killed due to shitty driving ability after blow-out.




http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FAMILY_TRAGEDY_WRECK?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-21-00-42-04

WILSON, N.C. (AP) -- A New York family returning from Disney World was devastated Saturday evening when women representing three generations were killed in a wreck on Interstate 95 in eastern North Carolina.

[Gunny]

Summary: Grandmother, Mother, Daughter killed due to shitty driving ability after blow-out.

And? I foresee a lawsuit blaming the vehicle manufacturer and tire manufacturer as co-defendants. Doesn't matter Grandma and Mom weren't smart enough to at least pull the Abe Lincoln's head penny test.

Most at fault, IMO ... where's granddad and/or dad to make sure Mom's vehicle is safe? Really. Letting your woman drive off without PMing her vehicle.

[darin]

And? I foresee a lawsuit blaming the vehicle manufacturer and tire manufacturer as co-defendants. Doesn't matter Grandma and Mom weren't smart enough to at least pull the Abe Lincoln's head penny test.

Most at fault, IMO ... where's granddad and/or dad to make sure Mom's vehicle is safe? Really. Letting your woman drive off without PMing her vehicle.

The fault lies squarely at the feet of the driver, Gunny. No amount of Preventive Maintenance Checks and Services prevents equipment failure. The "lost control" aspect is what lead to the deaths.

[Gunny]

The fault lies squarely at the feet of the driver, Gunny. No amount of Preventive Maintenance Checks and Services prevents equipment failure. The "lost control" aspect is what lead to the deaths.

I don't disagree. Was just pointing out how I foresee the blame being cast.

[logroller]

Summary: Grandmother, Mother, Daughter killed due to shitty driving ability after blow-out.

Apparently the mother and gma were ejected, not minding NC's seatbelt law...or common sense. Perhaps if we had a law against foolishness this tragedy could have been averted.

Does anybody find it odd that all three women had the same last name???

[ConHog]

without knowing the condition of the tire prior to its blowing out, I'd be hard pressed to place blame on anyone for the accident. Sometimes accidents really are accidents.

That being said, the two women who weren't wearing seat belts probably didn't do themselves any favors. I wonder if they were among the fools who think seat belts are more bad than good.

[logroller]

The fault lies squarely at the feet of the driver, Gunny. No amount of Preventive Maintenance Checks and Services prevents equipment failure. The "lost control" aspect is what lead to the deaths.

Naw. its that damned Disneyworld attraction which lead to the deaths. Puts a whole new meaning into "Happiest place on Earth" --perhaps they should change it to "the happiest you'll ever be"

[darin]

Apparently the mother and gma were ejected, not minding NC's seatbelt law...or common sense. Perhaps if we had a law against foolishness this tragedy could have been averted.


We need laws against death. That'd save more folk.


Does anybody find it odd that all three women had the same last name???

Most of the time families carry the same last name.

[KartRacerBoy]

Unfortunately, most folks really think of cars/vehicles as appliances. Getting them to care about driving skill ain't gonna happen for 90% of them. For my nephew's 16 bday, I got him a safe driving course given by a local BMW club. Tire Rack's HQ is only 10 miles from me and they hold the safe driving program on their test track. He got to take his car on a wet skidpad, autocross the car, spin it, learn control. He said the best part of the course from a safety perspective was allowing all the kids to get into the cab of an 18 wheeler and learn about how huge their blind spots are.

My daughter is only 8 but when she gets to driving age, we'll find a course like that for her. I'll also take her autocrossing so she learns what vehicle limits are.

[logroller]

without knowing the condition of the tire prior to its blowing out, I'd be hard pressed to place blame on anyone for the accident. Sometimes accidents really are accidents.

That being said, the two women who weren't wearing seat belts probably didn't do themselves any favors. I wonder if they were among the fools who think seat belts are more bad than good.

Well luckily, they didn't crash into a lake.

[ConHog]

Well luckily, they didn't crash into a lake.

Statistically speaking, what are the odds of drowning because you're car crashed into a lake and you couldn't get your seat belt undone?

[logroller]

Statistically speaking, what are the odds of drowning because you're car crashed into a lake and you couldn't get your seat belt undone?

Statistics/Schmistics. I dont need no egghead telling me I gotta put on my seatbelt. :laugh2:

[sundaydriver]

Summary: Grandmother, Mother, Daughter killed due to shitty driving ability after blow-out.

Well lets see. A high center of gravity heavy vehicle with 8 passengers and luggage a blows a tire at probably 70-75 mph. I think the end result would probably be a crash, driving ability or not.

I was a passenger in a good handling sports when the right rear tire blew at 65mph. It was a handfull in traffic for a good driver when the ass end came around as fast as it did. The tires were also brand new with only a few hundred miles on them.

[darin]

Unfortunately, most folks really think of cars/vehicles as appliances. Getting them to care about driving skill ain't gonna happen for 90% of them. For my nephew's 16 bday, I got him a safe driving course given by a local BMW club. Tire Rack's HQ is only 10 miles from me and they hold the safe driving program on their test track. He got to take his car on a wet skidpad, autocross the car, spin it, learn control. He said the best part of the course from a safety perspective was allowing all the kids to get into the cab of an 18 wheeler and learn about how huge their blind spots are.

My daughter is only 8 but when she gets to driving age, we'll find a course like that for her. I'll also take her autocrossing so she learns what vehicle limits are.

That's honestly a GREAT display of LOVE for your family. Fantastic.


Well lets see. A high center of gravity heavy vehicle with 8 passengers and luggage a blows a tire at probably 70-75 mph. I think the end result would probably be a crash, driving ability or not.

I was a passenger in a good handling sports when the right rear tire blew at 65mph. It was a handfull in traffic for a good driver when the ass end came around as fast as it did. The tires were also brand new with only a few hundred miles on them.

....not sure what to say except you're wronger than two boys in a bathtub. Good drivers 'save' vehicles from crashing because they practice the same movements. If one can cause a car to fish-tail on purpose, they wont freak-the-hell-out when it happens by accident.

[ConHog]

Statistics/Schmistics. I dont need no egghead telling me I gotta put on my seatbelt. :laugh2:

I hope you're kidding. Seat belts may possibly be the greatest safety advancement in the history of automobiles. (Although I must say one would have to give serious consideration to the brake light for that honor :laugh:)

[gabosaurus]

And? I foresee a lawsuit blaming the vehicle manufacturer and tire manufacturer as co-defendants. Doesn't matter Grandma and Mom weren't smart enough to at least pull the Abe Lincoln's head penny test.

Doesn't matter what kind of accident it is or who/what is responsible. The only winner will be the lawyers. It is the nature of their profession to make a profit off personal tragedy.

[darin]

Doesn't matter what kind of accident it is or who/what is responsible. The only winner will be the lawyers. It is the nature of their profession to make a profit off personal tragedy.

...and the folks who hire them. The folks who use tragedy as a lottery ticket.

[logroller]

Most of the time families carry the same last name.

I understand that, but this sounded to me as though they were blood-related.


a 22-year-old woman, her mother and grandmother

Am I alone in that interpretation?

[fj1200]

My wife had a blowout on her way to work a week ago, thankfully she got over three lanes of traffic without issue.

Phew, new tires for her.

[Kathianne]

Statistics/Schmistics. I dont need no egghead telling me I gotta put on my seatbelt. :laugh2:

I wouldn't start a car without my seatbelt on or anyone else in my car. I don't like mandatory laws though. A better one to me would prevent anyone or their estate, suing because of injury or death that wasn't wearing one. I can also understand auto insurance adding language that would prevent claims of injury as a result of not wearing a seat belt. Sometimes those with evolutionary problems just need to be held responsible for their own stupidity.

[logroller]

Statistically speaking, what are the odds of drowning because you're car crashed into a lake and you couldn't get your seat belt undone?

Probably not nearly as high as drowning because one doesn't know how to swim. But for whom it may concern--I use my seat belt!


I hope you're kidding. Seat belts may possibly be the greatest safety advancement in the history of automobiles. (Although I must say one would have to give serious consideration to the brake light for that honor :laugh:)

Of course. I was just mimicking the illogical reasons for not using them. By the same logic, car safety equipment should include flotation devices. The others are kinda boring, like "they're not comfortable."

Here's a guy riding in comfort.


http://youtu.be/JcVSQh5MbTo

[KartRacerBoy]

....not sure what to say except you're wronger than two boys in a bathtub. Good drivers 'save' vehicles from crashing because they practice the same movements. If one can cause a car to fish-tail on purpose, they wont freak-the-hell-out when it happens by accident.

"wronger than 2 boys in a bathtub." :laugh: My wife would vehemently disagree. She would say "wronger than my lard ass hubby gettin' in the shower with me." But that's just her. :laugh:

Seriously, surprise affects response. I race karts for 6 years and was used to a loose, oversteering kart. I lost a rear wheel one day (the entire hub, wheel, and tire -- let me tell you how high THOSE bounce) -- on a straight part of the track. I spun so fast I had no idea why until I looked at my kart in the haybales and someone pointed at my wheel assembly in the pitlane.. Now I'm not saying I'm ACE the racing driver, but I have more skills than most. Whether you spin or hold on and keep it straight is more a matter of luck when you have a blowout than anything else, IMO. So fj's wife was luck or good or both. I'd bet on lucky. And hurrah that fj still has his wife (I hear she makes the BIG bucks! Not sayin' how....).

[fj1200]

I'd bet on lucky. And hurrah that fj still has his wife (I hear she makes the BIG bucks! Not sayin' how....).

Or the brilliance of Subie design and handling when suffering a blowout on the driver's side front. But Kerb, an SUV is probably a bit more predictable, and reacts more slowly, than your kart.

I used to tell my wife that we would compare w-2s at the end of the year to decide who the man-of-the-house would be... it hasn't been me for quite some time... fml. :laugh:

[KartRacerBoy]

Or the brilliance of Subie design and handling when suffering a blowout on the driver's side front. But Kerb, an SUV is probably a bit more predictable, and reacts more slowly, than your kart.

I used to tell my wife that we would compare w-2s at the end of the year to decide who the man-of-the-house would be... it hasn't been me for quite some time... fml. :laugh:

Sure my kart was short wheelbase and hyperresponsive, but an SUV has a high CG, so when that blowout happens and the corner drops down, there might be hell to pay. Could be worse. If it's a front tire blowout and the driver hits the brakes, that could be BAAAAD.

[fj1200]

Sure my kart was short wheelbase and hyperresponsive, but an SUV has a high CG, so when that blowout happens and the corner drops down, there might be hell to pay. Could be worse. If it's a front tire blowout and the driver hits the brakes, that could be BAAAAD.

True, and exactly the point D was trying to make. It seems every time there is a teenager(s) who gets in an accident and dies it's because, frequently, they have a high HP car that they can't control in the first place, zero experience to control it, and they will over correct which makes the whole situation worse.

Of course seatbelt usage would have helped, the mortality rate for those without (2 for 2) is greater than those with (1 for 6) if I gleaned the information correctly.

[logroller]

Or the brilliance of Subie design and handling when suffering a blowout on the driver's side front. But Kerb, an SUV is probably a bit more predictable, and reacts more slowly, than your kart.

I used to tell my wife that we would compare w-2s at the end of the year to decide who the man-of-the-house would be... it hasn't been me for quite some time... fml. :laugh:

Ah! That's why the remodel omitted the man-cave. I surmise it's small price to pay for having a sugar mama.;)



Sure my kart was short wheelbase and hyperresponsive, but an SUV has a high CG, so when that blowout happens and the corner drops down, there might be hell to pay. Could be worse. If it's a front tire blowout and the driver hits the brakes, that could be BAAAAD.

But but...SUV's are so much safer when plowing into others.


True, and exactly the point D was trying to make. It seems every time there is a teenager(s) who gets in an accident and dies it's because, frequently, they have a high HP car that they can't control in the first place, zero experience to control it, and they will over correct which makes the whole situation worse.

Of course seatbelt usage would have helped, the mortality rate for those without (2 for 2) is greater than those with (1 for 6) if I gleaned the information correctly.

Well here in CarNation, the land of drag-racing and dirt tracks:salute:, if you're driving a big fat pig of a car b/c its safe (and cool), one mustn't compromise straight-line acceleration. That's in the CarNation Constitution; so's the right to cheap gas.

I've never understood why driving is allowed at 16 and not 18. Or the age to drink(legally) at 21 and not 18. Just seems overly complicated, anybody know?

Only mentioned the two older women weren't wearing them and were consequently ejected. No mention of the others, though 2 outta 3 is pretty convincing.

[fj1200]

Ah! That's why the remodel omitted the man-cave. I surmise it's small price to pay for having a sugar mama.;)

Not omitted, it's just going to be in the basement which is not priority. It also has a furnace sitting smack dab in the middle of it so until that's updated/moved the MC must wait.

[ConHog]

Ah! That's why the remodel omitted the man-cave. I surmise it's small price to pay for having a sugar mama.;)




But but...SUV's are so much safer when plowing into others.



Well here in CarNation, the land of drag-racing and dirt tracks:salute:, if you're driving a big fat pig of a car b/c its safe (and cool), one mustn't compromise straight-line acceleration. That's in the CarNation Constitution; so's the right to cheap gas.

I've never understood why driving is allowed at 16 and not 18. Or the age to drink(legally) at 21 and not 18. Just seems overly complicated, anybody know?

Only mentioned the two older women weren't wearing them and were consequently ejected. No mention of the others, though 2 outta 3 is pretty convincing.



Your post reminds me of a funny story of when I was a kid. We had a German exchange student my junior year of high school. He was a year older than I . He thought it was strange and we were backwards that we could drive at 16 , but that he couldn't legally drink beer.

We quickly convinced him that it was he the German who was strange and mixed up because we had a car, and knew where we could find beer, all the while he had no car in Germany. He was 17 and had never been behind the wheel before.

[logroller]

Your post reminds me of a funny story of when I was a kid. We had a German exchange student my junior year of high school. He was a year older than I . He thought it was strange and we were backwards that we could drive at 16 , but that he couldn't legally drink beer.

We quickly convinced him that it was he the German who was strange and mixed up because we had a car, and knew where we could find beer, all the while he had no car in Germany. He was 17 and had never been behind the wheel before.

Brother inlaw is German national. It's a different culture,with neighbor bars you can walk to and public transport for commutes. He said the German driving standards are very high, took him a year to get a license. Traffic enforcement is high too--Lots of cameras, speed traps and automated ticketing. Leaving patrols free to ticket for things like passing on the right and left-lane lolly-gagging. Go figure, Germans are good at efficiency... drinking too; pretty much every holiday: Christmas, Father's day, Oktoberfest, of course; involves the family loading a wagon up with booze and caroling about the town.

[ConHog]

Brother inlaw is German national. It's a different culture,with neighbor bars you can walk to and public transport for commutes. He said the German driving standards are very high, took him a year to get a license. Traffic enforcement is high too--Lots of cameras, speed traps and automated ticketing. Leaving patrols free to ticket for things like passing on the right and left-lane lolly-gagging. Go figure, Germans are good at efficiency... drinking too; pretty much every holiday: Christmas, Father's day, Oktoberfest, of course; involves the family loading a wagon up with booze and caroling about the town.

My German brother passed away a few years ago. Developed a rare form of brain cancer that killed him within 2 years of it being diagnosed. I thankfully got to see him 3 times in those 2 years. Once he came here and spent a month with us, and twice we traveled to Germany and spent 2 weeks at a time with him. Most likely the cancer was due to Chernobyl. He was from Lubeck if you know where that is.


The funny stories I could tell about that maroon would crack you up. He was so serious when he got here. Arrived in a three piece suit, left in jeans and Hog sweatshirt. First thing he did when he got back to Germany was call and tell us he wanted to come "home."

I'll share some stories in the lobby sometime.

One lesson I'll share now. NEVER call a German a NAZI just because you're mad at him/her. That shit pisses em off.

[J.T]

One lesson I'll share now. NEVER call a German a NAZI just because you're mad at him/her. That shit pisses em off.

That's why I call her a Nazi in the first place- to piss her off :)

[ConHog]

That's why I call her a Nazi in the first place- to piss her off :)

We've already established that you're an asshole. No need to post further evidence attempting to convince us.

[logroller]

That's why I call her a Nazi in the first place- to piss her off :)

That's not surprising. You should change your title to "Pointlessly effective", or is it "Effectively pointless"; You're the grammar gestapo, which is it?

Nevermind. "Grammar Gestapo", that's it; GG, for short.:dance:

[ConHog]

That's not surprising. You should change your title to "Pointlessly effective", or is it "Effectively pointless"; You're the grammar gestapo, which is it?

Nevermind. "Grammar Gestapo", that's it; GG, for short.:dance:

JT should be JD, Just another Douchebag.

[J.T]

JT should be JD, Just another Douchebag.

You're the one who compared having you around children to force-feeding those children feces

[Gunny]

without knowing the condition of the tire prior to its blowing out, I'd be hard pressed to place blame on anyone for the accident. Sometimes accidents really are accidents.

That being said, the two women who weren't wearing seat belts probably didn't do themselves any favors. I wonder if they were among the fools who think seat belts are more bad than good.

Agreed. That's unfortunately not how these vultures that make a living out of tragedy view things. Sometimes, shit just happens.

I also agree that type of vehicle, skill of the driver and conditions all play factors in this case. A car is not going to roll as quickly as an SUV/truck.

I was in a spinout on the Buckman Bridge in Jacksonville, FL and we did just that -- spun out. My brother had a Z28 at the time and it just wasn't going to roll. My truck would never have survived like conditions.

[ConHog]

Agreed. That's unfortunately not how these vultures that make a living out of tragedy view things. Sometimes, shit just happens.

I also agree that type of vehicle, skill of the driver and conditions all play factors in this case. A car is not going to roll as quickly as an SUV/truck.

I was in a spinout on the Buckman Bridge in Jacksonville, FL and we did just that -- spun out. My brother had a Z28 at the time and it just wasn't going to roll. My truck would never have survived like conditions.

That is unfortunately something that people RARELY, if ever think about. Center of gravity, you just can NOT handle an SUV like it's a sports car.

[darin]

That is unfortunately something that people RARELY, if ever think about. Center of gravity, you just can NOT handle an SUV like it's a sports car.

Depends on the SUV. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz7q7ViUZxs


What the operator of the Vehicle in the OP failed to do, wasn't something miraculous. It wouldn't have taken Michael Schumacher at the wheel. Basic emergency driving skills are what's needed. I'd wager 90% of drivers lack even BASIC emergency vehicle dynamics knowledge for their car.

[ConHog]

Depends on the SUV. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz7q7ViUZxs


What the operator of the Vehicle in the OP failed to do, wasn't something miraculous. It wouldn't have taken Michael Schumacher at the wheel. Basic emergency driving skills are what's needed. I'd wager 90% of drivers lack even BASIC emergency vehicle dynamics knowledge for their car.

I'm sure you're right. I would go further, I would say 90% of drivers have no business driving, but what are you going to do? Tell those people to stay home?

This was an accident, they happen, and nothing is going to change that.

[KartRacerBoy]

I had a friend with a Suzuki Samari in the 80s. Short wheel base, very high CG. I drove it once and that was enough for me. I had an 86 VW GTi at the time. What an enormous difference. On a mildly curvey on ramp, that thing was tippy as hell. I realize vehicle was an extreme, but I've driven modern SUVs since and I hated them all. I really don't understand why anyone chooses them over minivans, which handle much better, IMO. I've autocrossed a Honda Odyssey, and that thing was pretty fun for what it was. SUVs? Not for me or my family.

[darin]

I'm sure you're right. I would go further, I would say 90% of drivers have no business driving, but what are you going to do? Tell those people to stay home?

This was an accident, they happen, and nothing is going to change that.

yah mon. Maybe we require re-licensing? Harder to get a carry permit than a driver's license; look what kills more folks per year?

[ConHog]

yah mon. Maybe we require re-licensing? Harder to get a carry permit than a driver's license; look what kills more folks per year?

Oh, we actually are in agreement here. BUT that's another topic, because I do NOT believe that a person should have to prove they can handle a top heavy SUV at 60 MPH during a blowout in order to obtain a DL.

It's a sad story, but ultimately there is a reason they call them accidents.

[darin]

Wasn't accidental in the purest sense - it's the logical conclusion of a blown tire at high speed, and a terrible driver.

Sudden flats don't cause cars to flip...very unlikely. Even Mythbusters did an episode - they couldn't get the thing to even hardly swerve during a blow-out.

[ConHog]

Wasn't accidental in the purest sense - it's the logical conclusion of a blown tire at high speed, and a terrible driver.

Sudden flats don't cause cars to flip...very unlikely. Even Mythbusters did an episode - they couldn't get the thing to even hardly swerve during a blow-out.

Freak accidents happen man, there BIGGEST mistake was not having their seat belts on.

[darin]

Sure they do. This case was not a freak accident. Not-wearing-seatbelts didn't kill those involved. Poor driving/decision-making on the part of the driver did. This is a case of homicide: man-caused death.


Freak accidents happen man, there BIGGEST mistake was not having their seat belts on.

[ConHog]

Sure they do. This case was not a freak accident. Not-wearing-seatbelts didn't kill those involved. Poor driving/decision-making on the part of the driver did. This is a case of homicide: man-caused death.

You think it was homicide? Holy shit, are you being insane in this thread.

[KartRacerBoy]

Sure they do. This case was not a freak accident. Not-wearing-seatbelts didn't kill those involved. Poor driving/decision-making on the part of the driver did. This is a case of homicide: man-caused death.

So if you're so hard core on driving skills, dmp, what have you done to hone your own? Or do you simply assume you could control a vehicle in the blowout situation?