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Kathianne
08-23-2011, 10:25 AM
KRB asked a question the other day, http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?32265-De-Facto-Halt-on-Deportations&p=486376#post486376 #7

I didn't respond, but yes I'd heard of him and read some of his writings. He is brilliant, though I haven't always agreed with him. I do with much of what he says here however:

http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/94055/posner-recession-depressions-entitlements




August 23, 2011 | 12:00 am



This article is a contribution to 'Is There Anything That Can Be Done? A TNR Symposium On The Economy.' Click here to read other contributions to the series.

(http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/93966/tnr-symposium-economy)

If the notion that we are merely living through the aftereffects of a mere “recession” that ended in 2009 sounds somewhat ridiculous, that’s because it is. If we were being honest with ourselves, we would call this a depression. That would certainly better convey both the severity of our problems, and the fact that those problems have no evident solutions.


The American economy currently has both a short-term problem and a long-term problem. The short-term problem is that the economy is depressed; it is growing more slowly than the population, with the result that per capita income is declining. The high rate of un- and underemployment is a factor, but is itself the product of other factors, having mainly to do with the reluctance of over-indebted consumers (over-indebted in major part because of loss of equity in their houses, the major source of household wealth) to spend, the reluctance of the impaired banking industry to make risky loans, and the reluctance of businesses to invest and to hire, which is due in part to weak consumer spending and in part to profound uncertainty about the nation’s economic future.


The roots of this catastrophic situations lie primarily, I think, in the incompetent economic management of the Bush administration and the Federal Reserve. The persistence of the depression, however, is due in part at least to surprising failures of the Obama administration—poor leadership, poor management, the sponsorship of incomprehensibly complex health care and financial regulation laws that have created widespread uncertainty that has discouraged consumption and investment, and the inability to explain the nature of the economy’s problems to the general public. These failures caused the stimulus enacted in February 2009 to be botched in both in its design and its administration, resulting in the discrediting of deficit spending as a response to depression.


So what can be done now? Probably nothing. Anything that involves spending, such as a new stimulus program, would come too late to be effective. Measures that would not involve spending, such as devaluing the currency (which the Federal Reserve could do by buying a great many bonds, thus flooding the world with dollars), could stimulate our exports and hence production and hence employment and reduce imports (which would further help domestic production), but they are too risky given the interdependence of our economy and the economies of the rest of the world. Europe is staggering and would be hurt by our devaluing, and our banks and other financial institutions are heavily involved in those European economies...

fj1200
08-23-2011, 10:34 AM
http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/94055/posner-recession-depressions-entitlements


The roots of this catastrophic situations lie primarily, I think, in the incompetent economic management of the Bush administration and the Federal Reserve.

Huh? Did he forget who the president is now?

Kathianne
08-23-2011, 10:38 AM
Huh? Did he forget who the president is now?

roots and then?

Although I agree that the problems didn't begin with GW, have to go back to mid 90's. ;)

fj1200
08-23-2011, 10:45 AM
roots and then?

Although I agree that the problems didn't begin with GW, have to go back to mid 90's. ;)

Oh yes, roots, and I even pulled the quote. :laugh: I still need to read the whole link.

I put the roots then further back with ever increasing reg.s and not cutting the corporate rate to remain competitive in the world.

ConHog
08-23-2011, 10:49 AM
Oh yes, roots, and I even pulled the quote. :laugh: I still need to read the whole link.

I put the roots then further back with ever increasing reg.s and not cutting the corporate rate to remain competitive in the world.

I blame FDR, that rat bastard.

KartRacerBoy
08-23-2011, 12:32 PM
I'd love to see Posner appointed to the SCt but we'll never see it. I'd personally love to see him defend his book "Sex and Reason" (an economic analysis of sex) in front of Congress. :laugh:

I don't think we're heading into a depression. I think it will be much more like Japan's "lost decade" of very low economic growth. Although if the Europeon countries default, depression it may be.

KartRacerBoy
08-23-2011, 12:38 PM
BTW, I've actually met Posner. I filed an appeal in the 7th Circuit in Chicago personally once. He was in the clerk's office when I filed it. I was with a buddy and when we were in the parking garage, we quickly changed by our car from our suits into shorts and shirt for golf. Turns out we parked next to Posner's car. He walked up while we were still in our underpants on and just muttered "Indiana lawyers" with a grin and got in his car. I requested oral arguments but it was denied. Methinks he remembered our encounter...

ConHog
08-23-2011, 12:38 PM
I'd love to see Posner appointed to the SCt but we'll never see it. I'd personally love to see him defend his book "Sex and Reason" (an economic analysis of sex) in front of Congress. :laugh:

I don't think we're heading into a depression. I think it will be much more like Japan's "lost decade" of very low economic growth. Although if the Europeon countries default, depression it may be.

I don't think we are in a depression, but I do think we are on the cusp.

Kathianne
08-23-2011, 12:43 PM
I'd love to see Posner appointed to the SCt but we'll never see it. I'd personally love to see him defend his book "Sex and Reason" (an economic analysis of sex) in front of Congress. :laugh:

I don't think we're heading into a depression. I think it will be much more like Japan's "lost decade" of very low economic growth. Although if the Europeon countries default, depression it may be.

I see that he lecture at U of C, I'm going to check the calendar and see if any are open.

KartRacerBoy
08-23-2011, 12:46 PM
I see that he lecture at U of C, I'm going to check the calendar and see if any are open.

If you go, ask him if he remembers the "indiana lawyers" I was the one in the blue briefs.

Kathianne
08-23-2011, 12:48 PM
If you go, ask him if he remembers the "indiana lawyers" I was the one in the blue briefs.

:thumb: I've a friend that went to school with me there. Every once in awhile one of us will call the other and say, 'let's go'. I'll see if he's listed in this semester's calendar.

ConHog
08-23-2011, 12:59 PM
If you go, ask him if he remembers the "indiana lawyers" I was the one in the blue briefs.

WHy does he know the color of your panties? OH never mind, I'm sure I'll regret asking. :laugh:

Kathianne
08-23-2011, 01:02 PM
WHy does he know the color of your panties? OH never mind, I'm sure I'll regret asking. :laugh:

I considered asking, but anticipated that it would be a likely regret. ;)

ConHog
08-23-2011, 01:03 PM
I considered asking, but anticipated that it would be a likely regret. ;)

It was like the last slice of pizza. You damn well know you don't need it, and that ultimately you would probably regret going there, but you just couldn't resist anyway.

fj1200
08-23-2011, 01:20 PM
I didn't respond, but yes I'd heard of him and read some of his writings. He is brilliant, though I haven't always agreed with him. I do with much of what he says here however:

http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/94055/posner-recession-depressions-entitlements

I am underimpressed with Mr. Posner and this bit.


The result is a quandary. I don’t see a way out of it. I hope others do.

He just rehashed known facts and threw in his towel; what was the point of it? Is he getting paid for signing his name to this?

Kathianne
08-23-2011, 01:48 PM
I am underimpressed with Mr. Posner and this bit.



He just rehashed known facts and threw in his towel; what was the point of it? Is he getting paid for signing his name to this?

Very understandable and wouldn't be shocked that you stopped going over it.

You do understand that it was a symposium put together by TNR?


This article is a contribution to 'Is There Anything That Can Be Done? A TNR Symposium On The Economy.' Click here to read other contributions to the series. (http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/93966/tnr-symposium-economy)


http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/93966/tnr-symposium-economy

KartRacerBoy
08-23-2011, 02:08 PM
WHy does he know the color of your panties? OH never mind, I'm sure I'll regret asking. :laugh:

My legal briefs are always memorable.

Binky
08-23-2011, 02:11 PM
As far as I'm concerned, I think part of the blame for this depression we are in has to lie directly with the consumers/homeowners. In their never ending drive for bigger they have managed to land themselves in such huge mansionlike homes, wanting to "live like the stars", and that with those comes mammoth sized monthly payments. So huge in fact, they can't even begin to allow for breathing space, so to speak, when something goes awry and they up and lose their jobs or have to take a leave of absence. And since this is the age of the constant gratification of charging insurmountable amounts of debts on credit cards to appease themselves and/or their children, they have created demons not so easily removed and which keep arriving at their doors waiting to be fed.

The people required larger (homes/vehicles) and more goods to define themselves. They feel better about themselves the larger the gunk and the amount they have in their lives. It defines who they are. And when they can no longer afford to appease themselves and can't make the payments they promised to pay, they lose the junk that had become a part of them. And when people can't pay, and are unable to squander the money as they once did, companies have to cut back staffing and the amount of product they make. Next thing you know, there's a lineup at the unemployment office. Along with having to pay the huge monthly payments comes the large utility bills rolling in as well to keep it all bright and cozy. The utility companies, manufacturers, markeplace etc. are all greedy for our dollars. And it's the greed that has put Americas economy on the brink of collaspe. The greed to have more. The greed to spend more. The greed to control more.

Home builders, for the most part, as it stands right now, have pretty much priced themselves out of the market. With the number of homes left standing empty across the country, the need for more new housing isn't going to pop up anytime soon. For the time being and quite possibly years, it is sitting stagnant.

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that we can't blame just one part of the industry or any part of them without including consumers. It is the greed that has driven them all.