View Full Version : Eternal justice, just?
I wana prefix this by requesting (as bizarre as it may seem) that the topic is keep as a-religious as possible, in not citing certain doctrines or scriptures etc, but just as a more general discussion on the aspect of an afterlife. Though purly for the purposes of clarity I will use the words 'heaven' and 'hell' given they're the best description.
Would you rather live a life in a universe in which
a) All people, be they good or evil, worshipful or not, go to heaven to spend an eternity in paradise. No one is sent to a hell, to be tortured for eterniy for what they did/thought on earth.
b) Some peoe go to heaven to spend an eternity in parasdise, the rest are sent to hell to be tortured for eternity. Because of what they did/thought on earth.
c) Once you die that is it, no afterlife, heaven or hell, no paradise, no torture. Nothingness.
Considering not only what effect this may have on you and your loved ones, but also people you can never know.
Your thoughts?
Dilloduck
09-07-2011, 03:22 PM
What is the benefit of pretending we have a choice in the matter ?
What is the benefit of pretending we have a choice in the matter ?
Follow that to it's logical conclusion and this entire board is pointless unless any of us are able to influence, say, American forgien policy.
If you don't want to take part I'm not forcing you, please go find another thread.
Follow that to it's logical conclusion and this entire board is pointless unless any of us are able to influence, say, American forgien policy.
In theory, we can influence the thought of other voters.
Nukeman
09-07-2011, 04:04 PM
Personally I would have to pick A. given that I believe that people are good, they just have bad upbringings and sometimes make poor choices. So should someone be punished for all eternity for what happened in the blink of an eye?? My answer is NO. Before anyone starts down the Hitler/Stalin/Mao path, you sometimes have to take the bad with the good......
For those that are for damnation and all that keep in mind, you're condemning someone for ALL ETERNITY for a literal blink of the eye moment in time. Is that really how things should be?????
If as you say EVERYONE is in the afterlife than the "evil" people will be reminded of their deeds and what they did. I think that in and of its self would be a form of torture to them so even though they are living in paradise!!!
In theory, we can influence the thought of other voters.
Indeed. But I'm not wasting my time having a discussion about having a discussion (mildly Python-esk) anyone who wants to do that can go make there own thread and get there kicks there.
Personally I would have to pick A. given that I believe that people are good, they just have bad upbringings and sometimes make poor choices. So should someone be punished for all eternity for what happened in the blink of an eye?? My answer is NO. Before anyone starts down the Hitler/Stalin/Mao path, you sometimes have to take the bad with the good......
For those that are for damnation and all that keep in mind, you're condemning someone for ALL ETERNITY for a literal blink of the eye moment in time. Is that really how things should be?????
If as you say EVERYONE is in the afterlife than the "evil" people will be reminded of their deeds and what they did. I think that in and of its self would be a form of torture to them so even though they are living in paradise!!!
For the same reasons, almost, I'd pick C. Not picking B is obvious IMO (though some/many will prob disagree) who could ever want to subject others to eternal punishmen? But I'd shy away from A because the idea of Child Molesters and they like spending eternity in paradise is too per ewe for me to accept.
The good do good in life and hopefully get rewarded in it, as we'd also hope the evil get punished, but once that's done, the evil deserve neither eternal punishment or paridise. IMO.
I kinda like the original Jewish pipedream, before Christians invented hell. Basically, the good people see paradiseand the bad people cease to exist.
Dilloduck
09-07-2011, 06:31 PM
If life had a point it might be more intersting but why is the ending so important ?
darin
09-08-2011, 05:29 AM
I used to believe in eternal hell for 'non believers'. Lately I'm starting to think more about Grace. A band called Reliant K has a lyric which says "...The beauty of Grace is it makes life not fair". Some christians, now - this is only based on my subjective observations - fear one thing most: They fear they will NOT be 'rewarded' for their faith. Going hand-in-hand with that, some christians seem to fear, second-most, NON-believers will not be punished for their lack of same. Grace makes life NOT fair. Grace is not justice. To bring justice means each gets what is coming to them - what they deserve. Grace makes Justice its Bitch. Grace takes what we are owed - what we deserve - and grabs it by the neck, and chokes the power away. My grace to forgive my children, whether they ask or not - is boundless. How can I have this, and God does not?
Honestly, I'm to the point now where I gives a damn about hell and sin. I believe in, and trust in God because my life is better for obeying Him. My life here, on earth, is immeasurably better for choosing to believe in, and trust in, and acknowledge Christ. For me, God is tangible and effective in adjusting my mindset, fears, and puts my life into perspective otherwise unavailable. For that reason alone I maintain my faith - NOT for the sake of eternal reward - but for the sake of "its the right thing to do, for me and my family".
PostmodernProphet
09-08-2011, 07:00 AM
some of you are annoying....I would rather not spend an eternity anywhere near you......(chloe?.....would you be willing to date me for a couple of decades during the third millennium of eternity?.....you could pencil it in).....
avatar4321
09-08-2011, 11:28 PM
I used to believe in eternal hell for 'non believers'. Lately I'm starting to think more about Grace. A band called Reliant K has a lyric which says "...The beauty of Grace is it makes life not fair". Some christians, now - this is only based on my subjective observations - fear one thing most: They fear they will NOT be 'rewarded' for their faith. Going hand-in-hand with that, some christians seem to fear, second-most, NON-believers will not be punished for their lack of same. Grace makes life NOT fair. Grace is not justice. To bring justice means each gets what is coming to them - what they deserve. Grace makes Justice its Bitch. Grace takes what we are owed - what we deserve - and grabs it by the neck, and chokes the power away. My grace to forgive my children, whether they ask or not - is boundless. How can I have this, and God does not?
Honestly, I'm to the point now where I gives a damn about hell and sin. I believe in, and trust in God because my life is better for obeying Him. My life here, on earth, is immeasurably better for choosing to believe in, and trust in, and acknowledge Christ. For me, God is tangible and effective in adjusting my mindset, fears, and puts my life into perspective otherwise unavailable. For that reason alone I maintain my faith - NOT for the sake of eternal reward - but for the sake of "its the right thing to do, for me and my family".
I've actually been thinking of grace a bit too. And the Hand of Divine Providence in the lives of individuals and in the world.
I remember someone mentioning the other day about Eternal Damnation. I can't preach Eternal Damnation. I don't feel it in my heart. What I do feel is the absolutely love of God. I feel His power. The joy that comes from recognizing His hand in all things. When you have felt the love of God how can we think of being damned to hell? Christ has overcome Hell. He has overcome death. They are so insignificant when it comes to the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I just did a quick search. I can only find 11 mentions of Damnation in the Holy Bible. Compare that to the 159 times Grace is mentioned in the Bible. Or the 361 times Love is mentioned (That's not including the other words for love such as charity. Add another 24 for that).
God has not revealed to us the fulness of what Eternal Damnation looks like. But I don't think it matters. I don't think it's what the world generally pictures it as. I think that's likely a caricature. And I dont think that's what God wants us to focus on. After all. We are called to preach the Gospel or the Good News. Not Damnation. We are called to share God's love and His Grace, not His Justice.
I don't know all the details of how things work in the Eternities yet. But I think when we get to the other side of the veil things will be much different than we would otherwise imagine.
Monkeybone
09-09-2011, 07:25 AM
Personally I would have to pick A. given that I believe that people are good, they just have bad upbringings and sometimes make poor choices. So should someone be punished for all eternity for what happened in the blink of an eye?? My answer is NO. Before anyone starts down the Hitler/Stalin/Mao path, you sometimes have to take the bad with the good......
For those that are for damnation and all that keep in mind, you're condemning someone for ALL ETERNITY for a literal blink of the eye moment in time. Is that really how things should be?????
If as you say EVERYONE is in the afterlife than the "evil" people will be reminded of their deeds and what they did. I think that in and of its self would be a form of torture to them so even though they are living in paradise!!!
I used to believe in eternal hell for 'non believers'. Lately I'm starting to think more about Grace. A band called Reliant K has a lyric which says "...The beauty of Grace is it makes life not fair". Some christians, now - this is only based on my subjective observations - fear one thing most: They fear they will NOT be 'rewarded' for their faith. Going hand-in-hand with that, some christians seem to fear, second-most, NON-believers will not be punished for their lack of same. Grace makes life NOT fair. Grace is not justice. To bring justice means each gets what is coming to them - what they deserve. Grace makes Justice its Bitch. Grace takes what we are owed - what we deserve - and grabs it by the neck, and chokes the power away. My grace to forgive my children, whether they ask or not - is boundless. How can I have this, and God does not?
Honestly, I'm to the point now where I gives a damn about hell and sin. I believe in, and trust in God because my life is better for obeying Him. My life here, on earth, is immeasurably better for choosing to believe in, and trust in, and acknowledge Christ. For me, God is tangible and effective in adjusting my mindset, fears, and puts my life into perspective otherwise unavailable. For that reason alone I maintain my faith - NOT for the sake of eternal reward - but for the sake of "its the right thing to do, for me and my family".
I've actually been thinking of grace a bit too. And the Hand of Divine Providence in the lives of individuals and in the world.
I remember someone mentioning the other day about Eternal Damnation. I can't preach Eternal Damnation. I don't feel it in my heart. What I do feel is the absolutely love of God. I feel His power. The joy that comes from recognizing His hand in all things. When you have felt the love of God how can we think of being damned to hell? Christ has overcome Hell. He has overcome death. They are so insignificant when it comes to the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I just did a quick search. I can only find 11 mentions of Damnation in the Holy Bible. Compare that to the 159 times Grace is mentioned in the Bible. Or the 361 times Love is mentioned (That's not including the other words for love such as charity. Add another 24 for that).
God has not revealed to us the fulness of what Eternal Damnation looks like. But I don't think it matters. I don't think it's what the world generally pictures it as. I think that's likely a caricature. And I dont think that's what God wants us to focus on. After all. We are called to preach the Gospel or the Good News. Not Damnation. We are called to share God's love and His Grace, not His Justice.
I don't know all the details of how things work in the Eternities yet. But I think when we get to the other side of the veil things will be much different than we would otherwise imagine. To me you guys are all hitting the nail on the head for Option B. Avatar gets it the most, imo, especially within the last paragraph. Can you be condemed to eternal damnation? Yes. But you can also repent, therefore God's Grace. Are we to preach fire and brimstone? Maybe to some, but that mostly turns people off. If you think that people deserve paradise, then talk to them about it. Spread the good news, not the gonna getcha news.
avatar4321
09-09-2011, 10:36 AM
To me you guys are all hitting the nail on the head for Option B. Avatar gets it the most, imo, especially within the last paragraph. Can you be condemed to eternal damnation? Yes. But you can also repent, therefore God's Grace. Are we to preach fire and brimstone? Maybe to some, but that mostly turns people off. If you think that people deserve paradise, then talk to them about it. Spread the good news, not the gonna getcha news.
Im not sure I agree with option B though. Im not sure I agree with any options presented here.
darin
09-09-2011, 12:32 PM
If you think that people deserve paradise, then talk to them about it. Spread the good news, not the gonna getcha news.
Just a point of order - No man 'deserves' anything from God. ;)
chloe
09-10-2011, 06:04 PM
I wana prefix this by requesting (as bizarre as it may seem) that the topic is keep as a-religious as possible, in not citing certain doctrines or scriptures etc, but just as a more general discussion on the aspect of an afterlife. Though purly for the purposes of clarity I will use the words 'heaven' and 'hell' given they're the best description.
Would you rather live a life in a universe in which
a) All people, be they good or evil, worshipful or not, go to heaven to spend an eternity in paradise. No one is sent to a hell, to be tortured for eterniy for what they did/thought on earth.
b) Some peoe go to heaven to spend an eternity in parasdise, the rest are sent to hell to be tortured for eternity. Because of what they did/thought on earth.
c) Once you die that is it, no afterlife, heaven or hell, no paradise, no torture. Nothingness.
Considering not only what effect this may have on you and your loved ones, but also people you can never know.
Your thoughts?
I don't believe in any of the 3 concepts you listed but if you are asking the online posters to choose 1 out of just those 3 options, I will pick A.
SassyLady
09-12-2011, 01:12 AM
I believe in life after death, however, I don't believe in heaven or hell as described by man, so can't vote for any of your options.
I believe in life after death, however, I don't believe in heaven or hell as described by man, so can't vote for any of your options.
Indeed, though it's a question of which you'd prefer, not which you believe to be true
SassyLady
09-12-2011, 11:56 PM
Indeed, though it's a question of which you'd prefer, not which you believe to be true
Wouldn't that be like asking you which would you prefer as your last meal....chicken, beef or pork?
Wouldn't that be like asking you which would you prefer as your last meal....chicken, beef or pork?
Indeed, and given the parameters of the question I would answer chicken.
darin
09-13-2011, 10:57 AM
I believe in life after death, however, I don't believe in heaven or hell as described by man, so can't vote for any of your options.
I know heaven exists...I can show you were to find it. ;) We should date.
I believe in life after death, however, I don't believe in heaven or hell as described by man, so can't vote for any of your options.
Are you telling us you prefer heaven as revealed o you by woman?
Thunderknuckles
09-13-2011, 11:34 AM
Regardless of your beliefs, I don't know how anyone would not answer A.
Maybe even B for some of you more cynical bastards out there.
Regardless of your beliefs, I don't know how anyone would not answer A.
Maybe even B for some of you more cynical bastards out there.
Whats so wrong with C?
Thunderknuckles
09-13-2011, 11:48 AM
Whats so wrong with C?
Nothing wrong with it at all. I just find it hard to believe anyone would actually choose eternal nothingness over eternal paradise if they actually had a choice in it.
Nothing wrong with it at all. I just find it hard to believe anyone would actually choose eternal nothingness over eternal paradise if they actually had a choice in it.
If it means child rapists and such not also getting an eternity in paradise i'm all for it.
Thunderknuckles
09-13-2011, 12:02 PM
If it means child rapists and such not also getting an eternity in paradise i'm all for it.
That's an interesting thought. Would you therefore condemn everyone to the void in order to stop a minority of bad apples from entering paradise? I would not, but then again that might stem more from my own definition of paradise where among other things, all wounds are healed.
That's an interesting thought. Would you therefore condemn everyone to the void in order to stop a minority of bad apples from entering paradise? I would not, but then again that might stem more from my own definition of paradise where among other things, all wounds are healed.
Condem to what? Nothingness, no knowledge of nothingness. Its hardly a condemnation if you will never have any realisation of the nothingness that now consumes you.
In the same manor that you have no knowing that you were 'condemned' to billions of years of death, before you where born.
Thunderknuckles
09-13-2011, 12:38 PM
Condem to what? Nothingness, no knowledge of nothingness. Its hardly a condemnation if you will never have any realisation of the nothingness that now consumes you.
In the same manor that you have no knowing that you were 'condemned' to billions of years of death, before you where born.
I don't quite buy that based on the fact that for a brief moment in time, you have been given consciousness and now know the difference between that and nothingness. When faced with the possibility of returning to eternal nothingness, the conscious mind rebels and does not want to accept it even though deep down, it knows it must. Isn't this why we have religions in the first place? Once born, human beings want very badly for there to be an option A at the end of the road.
I pose your original question to you in this way:
If faced with your imminent demise and by some miracle you were given the same 3 choices you posed, would you really choose C over A and B?
I don't quite buy that based on the fact that for a brief moment in time, you have been given consciousness and now know the difference between that and nothingness. When faced with the possibility of returning to eternal nothingness, the conscious mind rebels and does not want to accept it even though deep down, it knows it must. Isn't this why we have religions in the first place? Once born, human beings want very badly for there to be an option A at the end of the road.
I pose your original question to you in this way:
If faced with your imminent demise and by some miracle you were given the same 3 choices you posed, would you really choose C over A and B?
Yes, most certainly.
Thunderknuckles
09-13-2011, 12:53 PM
Yes, most certainly.
I think I might have said the same in the arrogant days of my youth but I'm middle aged and far more cowardly now :)
If you truly can make that choice, my hat is off to you.
SassyLady
09-15-2011, 12:27 AM
Are you telling us you prefer heaven as revealed o you by woman?
maybe..
SassyLady
09-15-2011, 12:27 AM
Indeed, and given the parameters of the question I would answer chicken.
and you'd be OK with eating chicken for eternity???
I believe that we create reality through our thoughts....and I prefer to not concentrate or chose one of your options because in my reality none of them exist.
SassyLady
09-15-2011, 12:29 AM
Noir ... off topic, but why do you have those symbols below your name?
and you'd be OK with eating chicken for eternity???
I believe that we create reality through our thoughts....and I prefer to not concentrate or chose one of your options because in my reality none of them exist.
Would I be 'okay' with eating it? No. But that wasn't your question. You asked me to chose from one of three options. The taste of Pork and Beef literally make my gag, chicken doesn't, so based on 'lesser evil' logic I chose chicken. Doesn't mean I would want or like it.
And I find that an odd concept, reality is as it is regarless of our thoughts. ie no amount of thinking you can fly is going to interupt the reality which states you can't.
Noir ... off topic, but why do you have those symbols below your name?
No reason, couldn't think of anything else to put there
SassyLady
09-15-2011, 10:56 PM
No reason, couldn't think of anything else to put there
Seriously, your brain is so empty that is all you could think of putting there? Be truthful....what are you trying to say to everyone by using those symbols?
SassyLady
09-15-2011, 11:00 PM
Would I be 'okay' with eating it? No. But that wasn't your question. You asked me to chose from one of three options. The taste of Pork and Beef literally make my gag, chicken doesn't, so based on 'lesser evil' logic I chose chicken. Doesn't mean I would want or like it.
And I find that an odd concept, reality is as it is regarless of our thoughts. ie no amount of thinking you can fly is going to interupt the reality which states you can't.
At one time no one thought we would be able to soar with the birds ... be we do now.....so, somewhere, someone's thoughts created reality. Same with every invention known to mankind ... someone's thoughts created it.
And I know that you are smart enough to know that I'm not talking about "thinking about a dollar bill will put one in my hand"....but I do know that my positive thoughts have brought me a very good life...because I believe it's what I focus on and what I'm grateful for.
Seriously, your brain is so empty that is all you could think of putting there? Be truthful....what are you trying to say to everyone by using those symbols?
Yes, lol. It so happened that at the time I had two Wiki articles open. One about the swastika, and one about the Thron. I tried to think of a quick quip invoking some throns and when that faiked just banged in some swastikas. What what do tout ink I'm tryin to say, that in secretly (but not so secretly) a Nazi, Buddhist or Hindu? xD
At one time no one thought we would be able to soar with the birds ... be we do now.....so, somewhere, someone's thoughts created reality. Same with every invention known to mankind ... someone's thoughts created it.
And I know that you are smart enough to know that I'm not talking about "thinking about a dollar bill will put one in my hand"....but I do know that my positive thoughts have brought me a very good life...because I believe it's what I focus on and what I'm grateful for.
Yes we can change the physical reality, but not the meta-physical reality. ie I have a phone meaning I can talk to anyone else with a phone worldwide. However, we have not been able to think ourselves into being pyshic, but rather manipulate the physical world to make it such that I can put my voice in the head on someone else thousands of miles away.
And you think that answering a simple hypothetical question is somehow goin to disrupt your positive thoughts and good life?
All dogs go to heaven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zht6VcR0t6U"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zht6VcR0t6U
http://www.newser.com/story/119693/family-dog-kills-boy-4.html
http://abcnews.go.com/US/pet-pit-bull-kills-pregnant-woman-pacifica-california/story?id=14289961
Not all people do
chloe
09-16-2011, 10:57 PM
"You don't think, therefore i am."
God
Noir your new sig is funny:laugh2:
"You don't think, therefore i am."
God
Noir your new sig is funny:laugh2:
Thankyou kindly ^,^ thought of it myself lol (or atleast I know I didnt read it anywhere and a search or two on google doesn't show it attributed to anyone else)
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