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View Full Version : I cannot shake your hand, sir. I'm a Muslim and you're a man



stephanie
01-21-2007, 01:41 AM
:dunno:

By MARTIN SMITH - More by this author »

Last updated at 22:07pm on 20th January 2007


A Muslim woman police officer has sparked a new debate by refusing to shake hands with Britain's most senior police chief for religious reasons.

The incident happened at a passing-out parade where Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair was inspecting a line-up of 200 recruits.
In addition to refusing a traditional congratulatory handshake from Sir Ian, the WPC - who wore a traditional Muslim hijab headscarf - also declined to be photographed with him as she did not want the picture used for 'propaganda purposes'.

The woman had earlier insisted that it was contrary to her religious teaching for her to touch a man.

Now The Mail on Sunday has learned that her gesture has sparked top-level discussions at Scotland Yard.

Some officers argue that her attitude towards men might impede her ability to detain offenders.

However, it is clear that she is happy to come into contact with men, just not shake their hand or kiss them.

An inquiry has now been launched and the unidentified WPC - described as 'a non-Asian Muslim' - could face the sack if it is considered that her strict religious beliefs prevent her performing as an effective police officer.

However, senior commanders are worried that dismissing her would deepen the atmosphere of mistrust between the police and the Muslim community.

The incident happened at Imber Court, Scotland Yard's sports and conference centre at Thames Ditton in South West London, when the 200 recruits attended a passing-out parade having completed their 18 weeks' basic training.

A senior police source said: "Before Sir Ian arrived she told her training supervisor that she was not going to shake his hand because it was against her religion.

"She also said she did not want her picture taken with the commissioner because they would only use it for propaganda.

"Sir Ian was informed on his arrival of the officer's request. This has never happened before and he was bloody furious. But he agreed to go along with it so as not to cause a scene.

"He went out and shook the hand of every single new recruit apart from her. It was very obvious and very embarrassing.

"There was a great deal of discussion about it afterwards. People were asking how the hell is she going to make an arrest if she refuses to touch men."

Having completed her 18 weeks' initial training, the WPC has now been assigned to a West London police station as a beat bobby.

Like all newly qualified officers, she will remain on probation for two years to satisfy her superiors that she is suitable for the job.

A Scotland Yard spokeswoman said of the Imber Court incident on December 21 that normally the police would have refused a request not to shake Sir Ian's hand.

"It was only granted by members of training staff out of a desire to minimise any disruption to other people's enjoyment and to ensure the smooth running of what is one of the most important events in an officer's career,' she said.

"The commissioner did question the validity of this request and the matter is being looked at by the MPS."

The spokeswoman added that the officer has completed all basic training, including the safety course 'which requires recruits to come into physical contact with each other regardless of gender'.

Asked about the officer's ability to make an arrest, she said: "There is a standard between personal and professional life. A passing-out parade is a personal event. You are not fulfilling a professional duty there."

Scotland Yard has allowed Muslim WPCs to wear an adaptation of the hijab since 2001.

But, despite a vigorous recruitment campaign, there are still only around 300 Muslims among the Met's 35,000 officers and fewer than 20 are women.

The incident is the latest in a series of 'political correctness' and race-related rows under Sir Ian's command at the Met.

Last October, at the height of the Israel-Lebanon conflict, PC Alexander Basha, 24, was moved from Diplomatic Protection Group duties at the Israeli Embassy because he feared his Lebanese relatives could be targeted if he was seen on TV.

In June 2005 Sir Ian was judged to have 'hung out to dry' three white detectives - who were accused of rudely mispronouncing "Shi'ites' - to prove his anti-racist credentials.

An employment tribunal said that while he was deputy commissioner in charge of discipline and diversity he had prejudiced disciplinary proceedings against the men because he wanted to make an example of them.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=430249&in_page_id=1770

Gaffer
01-21-2007, 02:23 PM
If they can't conform to the dress regs and the normal routines of duties they need to get another job. Plain and simple. If their religion takes priority over their job, they need to get another job.

This is why the UK will fall to the muslims shortly after france does.

Gunny
01-21-2007, 02:48 PM
:dunno:

By MARTIN SMITH - More by this author »

Last updated at 22:07pm on 20th January 2007


A Muslim woman police officer has sparked a new debate by refusing to shake hands with Britain's most senior police chief for religious reasons.

The incident happened at a passing-out parade where Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair was inspecting a line-up of 200 recruits.
In addition to refusing a traditional congratulatory handshake from Sir Ian, the WPC - who wore a traditional Muslim hijab headscarf - also declined to be photographed with him as she did not want the picture used for 'propaganda purposes'.

The woman had earlier insisted that it was contrary to her religious teaching for her to touch a man.

Now The Mail on Sunday has learned that her gesture has sparked top-level discussions at Scotland Yard.

Some officers argue that her attitude towards men might impede her ability to detain offenders.

However, it is clear that she is happy to come into contact with men, just not shake their hand or kiss them.

An inquiry has now been launched and the unidentified WPC - described as 'a non-Asian Muslim' - could face the sack if it is considered that her strict religious beliefs prevent her performing as an effective police officer.

However, senior commanders are worried that dismissing her would deepen the atmosphere of mistrust between the police and the Muslim community.

The incident happened at Imber Court, Scotland Yard's sports and conference centre at Thames Ditton in South West London, when the 200 recruits attended a passing-out parade having completed their 18 weeks' basic training.

A senior police source said: "Before Sir Ian arrived she told her training supervisor that she was not going to shake his hand because it was against her religion.

"She also said she did not want her picture taken with the commissioner because they would only use it for propaganda.

"Sir Ian was informed on his arrival of the officer's request. This has never happened before and he was bloody furious. But he agreed to go along with it so as not to cause a scene.

"He went out and shook the hand of every single new recruit apart from her. It was very obvious and very embarrassing.

"There was a great deal of discussion about it afterwards. People were asking how the hell is she going to make an arrest if she refuses to touch men."

Having completed her 18 weeks' initial training, the WPC has now been assigned to a West London police station as a beat bobby.

Like all newly qualified officers, she will remain on probation for two years to satisfy her superiors that she is suitable for the job.

A Scotland Yard spokeswoman said of the Imber Court incident on December 21 that normally the police would have refused a request not to shake Sir Ian's hand.

"It was only granted by members of training staff out of a desire to minimise any disruption to other people's enjoyment and to ensure the smooth running of what is one of the most important events in an officer's career,' she said.

"The commissioner did question the validity of this request and the matter is being looked at by the MPS."

The spokeswoman added that the officer has completed all basic training, including the safety course 'which requires recruits to come into physical contact with each other regardless of gender'.

Asked about the officer's ability to make an arrest, she said: "There is a standard between personal and professional life. A passing-out parade is a personal event. You are not fulfilling a professional duty there."
Scotland Yard has allowed Muslim WPCs to wear an adaptation of the hijab since 2001.

But, despite a vigorous recruitment campaign, there are still only around 300 Muslims among the Met's 35,000 officers and fewer than 20 are women.

The incident is the latest in a series of 'political correctness' and race-related rows under Sir Ian's command at the Met.

Last October, at the height of the Israel-Lebanon conflict, PC Alexander Basha, 24, was moved from Diplomatic Protection Group duties at the Israeli Embassy because he feared his Lebanese relatives could be targeted if he was seen on TV.

In June 2005 Sir Ian was judged to have 'hung out to dry' three white detectives - who were accused of rudely mispronouncing "Shi'ites' - to prove his anti-racist credentials.

An employment tribunal said that while he was deputy commissioner in charge of discipline and diversity he had prejudiced disciplinary proceedings against the men because he wanted to make an example of them.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=430249&in_page_id=1770

Hogwash. Sounds like an official event to me.

jillian
01-21-2007, 04:06 PM
Actually, orthodox Jewish men don't shake the hands of women. Personally, it's always offended me, but the roots go back a real long way. Difficult to change people in that regard. I'm also not sure the act of not shaking hands is such that it would affect the job responsibilities of the woman in question.

Gaffer
01-21-2007, 04:40 PM
Actually, orthodox Jewish men don't shake the hands of women. Personally, it's always offended me, but the roots go back a real long way. Difficult to change people in that regard. I'm also not sure the act of not shaking hands is such that it would affect the job responsibilities of the woman in question.

Like I said if religion gets in the way of doing ones job, its time to get another job. How many orthodox jews are cops?

jillian
01-21-2007, 05:25 PM
Like I said if religion gets in the way of doing ones job, its time to get another job. How many orthodox jews are cops?

Well, one has to ask if shaking hands is part of the job of law enforcement. I'm not defending the practice, just so you know. And it offends me no end on a personal level.

As for orthodox jewish cops, I'd venture a guess there are more than a few. There's even one Chasidic cop (the first one, I believe) in Rockland County, NY.

Gaffer
01-21-2007, 06:00 PM
If shaking hands is bad then there are many other things she can't do as well to perform her job. Is she going tobe able to arrest a pig farmer? Can she detain someone with a dog? does she have to stop during her patrols and pray five times a day? If she is fasting during ramadi is she going to have strength enough to perform her duties during the day? would she arrest a muslim for assaulting a jew?

I would ask these kinds of questions of anyone that puts their religion over their job.

jillian
01-21-2007, 06:40 PM
If shaking hands is bad then there are many other things she can't do as well to perform her job. Is she going tobe able to arrest a pig farmer? Can she detain someone with a dog? does she have to stop during her patrols and pray five times a day? If she is fasting during ramadi is she going to have strength enough to perform her duties during the day? would she arrest a muslim for assaulting a jew?

I would ask these kinds of questions of anyone that puts their religion over their job.

I think they're good questions. And I suspect the answer varies with the individual. Certainly she should have to answer them and others, as should anyone who has religious requirements which could impact on their job.

Gunny
01-21-2007, 08:27 PM
Actually, orthodox Jewish men don't shake the hands of women. Personally, it's always offended me, but the roots go back a real long way. Difficult to change people in that regard. I'm also not sure the act of not shaking hands is such that it would affect the job responsibilities of the woman in question.

Shaking hands is a courtesy, custom and/or tradition in Western society, especially at a congratulatory ceremony. Participating in official functions is very much a part of the job.

For this woman to attempt to present it as anything else is just crap. She's grandstanding, trying to force her religion on others.

jillian
01-21-2007, 10:06 PM
Shaking hands is a courtesy, custom and/or tradition in Western society, especially at a congratulatory ceremony. Participating in official functions is very much a part of the job.

For this woman to attempt to present it as anything else is just crap. She's grandstanding, trying to force her religion on others.

I don't know that she's grandstanding. I do think questions need to be asked to see if her beliefs will keep her from doing her job. You also know that the law requires reasonable accommodation of religious beliefs, right? In other words, if there is one job she can't do, but another job she can, they have to give her the one she *can* do.

Gaffer
01-21-2007, 10:24 PM
I don't know that she's grandstanding. I do think questions need to be asked to see if her beliefs will keep her from doing her job. You also know that the law requires reasonable accommodation of religious beliefs, right? In other words, if there is one job she can't do, but another job she can, they have to give her the one she *can* do.

So if she doesn't like doing something she can claim its against or interfers with her religion and get another assignment. There should not be any job she can't do, regardless of her religion.

Gunny
01-21-2007, 10:26 PM
I don't know that she's grandstanding. I do think questions need to be asked to see if her beliefs will keep her from doing her job. You also know that the law requires reasonable accommodation of religious beliefs, right? In other words, if there is one job she can't do, but another job she can, they have to give her the one she *can* do.

That's called "catering to religion," and it is discrimination, plain and simple. She can use her religion to handpick her job while John Q ends up doing the one she can't with no choice in the matter if he wants to maintain employment.

Hugh Lincoln
01-23-2007, 12:57 PM
If they can't conform to the dress regs and the normal routines of duties they need to get another job. Plain and simple. If their religion takes priority over their job, they need to get another job.

I agree, but it's not religion at issue here, it's race.

If a WHITE MALE cop in Britain tried pulling this, everyone would laugh. But since she's a brown female, she can do whatever she wants. This would apply even if sex weren't an issue. Indians in NYC, for instance, can demand to wear turbans and beards on duty. They get away with it. But no white cop could say he was a Hindu and wanted to grow his hair long. It wouldn't pass the laugh test.

The real story here is that multiracial societies are failures in progress.