Atheists Angry After Wis. Gov. Changes ‘Holiday’ Tree Back to ‘Christmas’ Tree

[red states rule]

It is that time of year once again, and the War on Christmas has started. We have the usual "offended" folks screaming about having to be exposed to - gasp - Christmas





First, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (http://www.debatepolicy.com/topic/politics/scott-walker-PEPLT006878.topic) took on public sector unions.

Now he's re-igniting the Christmas (http://www.debatepolicy.com/topic/religion-belief/religious-festivals/christmas-12014001.topic) wars.

Walker said Monday that the evergreen decorated with ornaments and adorned with a star in the center of Wisconsin's Capitol Rotunda is a Christmas tree, not a holiday tree as it's been called for the past 25 years.

The roughly 30-foot-tall tree was called a Christmas tree from the first display in 1916 until 1985. That's when politicians bowed to concerns about government endorsing religion and started referring to it as a holiday tree.

The Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation has opposed the term Christmas tree, saying it offends nonreligious people and amounts to a government endorsement of Christianity.

The president of that group, Annie Laurie Gaylor, called Walker's decision rude and insensitive to non-Christians.

"The reason that it was turned into a holiday tree was to avoid this connotation that the governor chooses one religion over another," she said. "It's essentially a discourtesy by the governor to announce that. He intends that to be a slight and a snub to non-Christians, otherwise he would not do it."

Walker, in a press release, downplayed any potential controversy by simply referring to the decoration as a Christmas tree and not noting any change. His spokesman Cullen Werwie confirmed that the designation and change from past practices was intentional.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-christmasvsholida,0,7175928.story

[Gunny]

It is that time of year once again, and the War on Christmas has started. We have the usual "offended" folks screaming about having to be exposed to - gasp - Christmas

People who don't want to celebrate Christmas don't have to. Not to offend those that may actually remember what Christmas is, but the notion that Christmas is anything more than commercialism run amok anymore is absurd. It's about getting, not giving.

Thanks to the media, people who don't want to listen to those that worship the religion of atheism whine about it, STILL have to. Seems to me if atheists move to China, everyone will be happy.

[cadet]

It's a religious holiday, that's the basics of it. We celebrate Jesus birthday, any and all who don't like it, ignore the thing and celebrate your own dang holiday! I'm not gonna say anything about yours! It's your own dang fault you live in a country that is mostly christian!

We have freedom of religion too you know! It's not bash the Christians day, cause then your going against OUR rights!

Now, I'm going to give gifts, drink, and be merry. :cheers2:

[Gunny]

It's a religious holiday, that's the basics of it. We celebrate Jesus birthday, any and all who don't like it, ignore the thing and celebrate your own dang holiday! I'm not gonna say anything about yours! It's your own dang fault you live in a country that is mostly christian!

We have freedom of religion too you know! It's not bash the Christians day, cause then your going against OUR rights!

Now, I'm going to give gifts, drink, and be merry. :cheers2:

They're hypocrites, simple as that. They whine and cry Christians are trying to shove their beliefs down their throats while attempting to do the same thing to Christians with their beliefs.

[Thunderknuckles]

I have to hand it to Walker. The guy has no fear of stepping into an arena that other politicians avoid for the sake of political correctness and their own careers.

[logroller]

People get so upset about traditions; Not me, I think we should restore the grand tradition of community joining together, singing and dancing around the tree, then setting the tree ablaze.-- you know, be merry!

[Noir]

Personally I'm furious, how dare they, the swine. Have they no respect!

[DragonStryk72]

People get so upset about traditions; Not me, I think we should restore the grand tradition of community joining together, singing and dancing around the tree, then setting the tree ablaze.-- you know, be merry!

And I'll raise you women dancing naked around it.

[DragonStryk72]

Personally I'm furious, how dare they, the swine. Have they no respect!

Calling something by its proper name now is disrespectful? It's a Christmas tree, not a "holiday" tree, just as it's not a pancake. A pancake is a totally different thing. Freedom of Religion is not freedom from religion. You have no more right to demand we stop celebrating Christmas than I have to demand a muslim remove his turban.

[Noir]

Calling something by its proper name now is disrespectful? It's a Christmas tree, not a "holiday" tree, just as it's not a pancake. A pancake is a totally different thing. Freedom of Religion is not freedom from religion. You have no more right to demand we stop celebrating Christmas than I have to demand a muslim remove his turban.

Rawr, was just having a joke.*

There are wayyy more important things to be concerned about (like, Muslims being able to cover their faces, that *is* a legit concern imo) but whether or not you wana call something a chirstmas tree or a holiday tree or a Jew tree or feth knows what else isn't of the greatest concern.*

[DragonStryk72]

Rawr, was just having a joke.*

There are wayyy more important things to be concerned about (like, Muslims being able to cover their faces, that *is* a legit concern imo) but whether or not you wana call something a chirstmas tree or a holiday tree or a Jew tree or feth knows what else isn't of the greatest concern.*

Yeah, I just get tired of people throwing special names for things that are patently wrong just for the sake of not offending people who are going to be offended over stupid shit anyway. I don't know, I guess it's the writer in me, but it just grates on my last nerve

[Abbey Marie]

Let's call it the tannenbaum and really confuse them.

[ConHog]

People who don't want to celebrate Christmas don't have to. Not to offend those that may actually remember what Christmas is, but the notion that Christmas is anything more than commercialism run amok anymore is absurd. It's about getting, not giving.

Thanks to the media, people who don't want to listen to those that worship the religion of atheism whine about it, STILL have to. Seems to me if atheists move to China, everyone will be happy.

Trace this back to what I've been saying for years. Uneducated morons think the First Amendment guarantees freedom FROM religion, it does of course no such thing.

[ConHog]

Let's call it the tannenbaum and really confuse them.

It's a festuvus for the rest of us.

[Trigg]

I'm trying not to be cynical here, BUT

Has anyone else noticed that the worse the economy is and the longer the recession goes on, the MORE stores "celebrate" Christmas????

Around 2007 everywhere you looked the stores were celebrating the "holidays", very few ever said anything about Christmas. NOW they are practically shouting it from the rafters. CHRISTMAS SALE, magazines from Khols and Macy's have Christmas specials.

I do believe they think we are simple minded. Lets placate the christians so they come to our stores. They certainly don't want to offend anyone during a recession now do they.

[logroller]

I'm trying not to be cynical here, BUT

Has anyone else noticed that the worse the economy is and the longer the recession goes on, the MORE stores "celebrate" Christmas????

Around 2007 everywhere you looked the stores were celebrating the "holidays", very few ever said anything about Christmas. NOW they are practically shouting it from the rafters. CHRISTMAS SALE, magazines from Khols and Macy's have Christmas specials.

I do believe they think we are simple minded. Lets placate the christians so they come to our stores. They certainly don't want to offend anyone during a recession now do they.


Are you suggesting there is an economic interest in the celebration of Christmas??? :eek:



It's a religious holiday, that's the basics of it. We celebrate Jesus birthday, any and all who don't like it, ignore the thing and celebrate your own dang holiday! I'm not gonna say anything about yours! It's your own dang fault you live in a country that is mostly christian!

We have freedom of religion too you know! It's not bash the Christians day, cause then your going against OUR rights!

Now, I'm going to give gifts, drink, and be merry. :cheers2:

Interestingly, those traditions come from what was originally Saturnalia, a roman pagan holiday replete with a week-long period of lawlessness(Dec 17-23). No School, special markets were created, gambling was legal, gifts were given...


And I'll raise you women dancing naked around it.

Yup, I'd imagine that too; funny you'd say that because togas weren't worn in favor of more colorful outfits-- something I'd equate to modern Christmas sweaters. I can imagine the young kids, home for the holidays, loathing these gifts from their grandparents.:laugh:

[fj1200]

Let's call it the tannenbaum and really confuse them.

Good plan, that and having them mad at Christmas so that they won't have time to remove Christianity from the rest of society. :salute:

[logroller]

Good plan, that and having them mad at Christmas so that they won't have time to remove Christianity from the rest of society. :salute:

Hey I've got an idea FJ, a 'Holiday Tree' sales campaign-- it's an untapped market.:coffee:

Funny story, when I was younger my mom let me pick out a new ornament each year. Around eight I became aware of the six pointed star as the Star of David (David's my name)-- she bought it for me and I still hang that six inch blue star on my tree every year. So really, my tree is a holiday tree.:laugh:

[Noir]

Let's call it the tannenbaum and really confuse them.

May be displaying my ignorance somewhat but iirc tannenbaum was the codename for a Nazi germany & Facist Italy take over of Swizardland, so yeah it would mildly confuse me =/

[fj1200]

Hey I've got an idea FJ, a 'Holiday Tree' sales campaign-- it's an untapped market.:coffee:

Sweet idea. Who do you know in DC that can throw in a $1 per tree tax to fund a board to promote Big Holiday Tree? BHT will be run out of my basement of course. :laugh:

[logroller]

May be displaying my ignorance somewhat but iirc tannenbaum was the codename for a Nazi germany & Facist Italy take over of Swizardland, so yeah it would mildly confuse me =/

Well, you may be correct; but tannenbaum (meaning 'fir tree' in German), as a tradition dates back to (i think) the 16th century, obviously pre-dating Nazi Germany. Besides, we're talking about holiday traditions, not military conquests. Being confused doesn't speak to your ignorance... Swizardland though, might be held against you.;) I'll just assume it was an autocorrect failure

[Abbey Marie]

Well, you may be correct; but tannenbaum (meaning 'fir tree' in German), as a tradition dates back to (i think) the 16th century, obviously pre-dating Nazi Germany. Besides, we're talking about holiday traditions, not military conquests. Being confused doesn't speak to your ignorance... Swizardland though, might be held against you.;) I'll just assume it was an autocorrect failure

Yes, what he said.

[red states rule]

Let's call it the tannenbaum and really confuse them.

To all those government workers who are pissed of over this, Giov Walker can tell them they can work Christmas Day if they do not honor the holiday

Of course they will not receive any holiday pay or time and half for the hours they work

"Issue" resolved

I wonder how many will acccept the offer?

[red states rule]

Ah, now we have an "offended" atheist speaking out over this latest outrage




Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the atheist group Freedom From Religion Foundation, has some strong words for Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker.

Wednesday, I caught up with Gaylor to discuss the lawmaker’s recent decision (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/atheists-angry-after-wis-gov-changes-holiday-tree-back-to-christmas-tree/) to change the official reference to the state capitol’s “holiday tree” back to a “Christmas tree.” Gaylor didn’t hold back on her opinions about the governor or on his decision to make the name change.

During our exchange, she dismissed Walker as “…a Teabagger governor wearing religion on his sleeves“ and claimed that his recent decision is rooted in an effort to appeal to ”religious right” voters. Furthermore, she made it clear that she believes the governor is trampling on the rights of non-believing citizens.

When I asked the famed atheist leader why she opposes calling the decorated tree what many claim it is — a Christmas tree — she said, “Because it’s not inclusive.”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/atheist-responds-to-christmas-tree-gov-walkers-a-teabagger-wearing-religion-on-his-sleeves/

[fj1200]

She wants to be "inclusive" into a religiously based holiday? :confused:

[Abbey Marie]

:lame2:
Ah yes, calling a Christmas Tree a Christmas Tree is oh so offensive. But using the term "teabagger" is not. Gotta love those atheists.

[Missileman]

:lame2:
Ah yes, calling a Christmas Tree a Christmas Tree is oh so offensive. But using the term "teabagger" is not. Gotta love those atheists.

Teabagger is an atheist term? Strange, I don't recall ever using it.

[red states rule]

Teabagger is an atheist term? Strange, I don't recall ever using it.


Try reading the post




During our exchange, she dismissed Walker as “…a Teabagger governor wearing religion on his sleeves“ and claimed that his recent decision is rooted in an effort to appeal to ”religious right” voters. Furthermore, she made it clear that she believes the governor is trampling on the rights of non-believing citizens.



It is a common disgusting insult libs have used for two years to describe those who have a different opinioon on the role and size of government

and this liberal atheist used it as well

[red states rule]

:lame2:
Ah yes, calling a Christmas Tree a Christmas Tree is oh so offensive. But using the term "teabagger" is not. Gotta love those atheists.

She probably gets PO'd when someone tells her "God bless you" after she sneezes

[Missileman]

Try reading the post



It is a common disgusting insult libs have used for two years to describe those who have a different opinioon on the role and size of government

and this liberal atheist used it as well

One atheist using the term doesn't establish ownership to the group. Abbey should have leveled her criticism at Gaylor. Just like most Christians don't subscribe to the Phelps' doctrine, most atheists don't subscribe to these idiots.

BTW, there are way more Christian liberals than atheist liberals.

[red states rule]

One atheist using the term doesn't establish ownership to the group. Abbey should have leveled her criticism at Gaylor. Just like most Christians don't subscribe to the Phelps' doctrine, most atheists don't subscribe to these idiots.

BTW, there are way more Christian liberals than atheist liberals.


Cristian liberal?

That ranks up there with efficient government, objective MSM, and religion of peace

Keep the humor flowing MM

[Missileman]

Cristian liberal?

That ranks up there with efficient government, objective MSM, and religion of peace

Keep the humor flowing MM

You can try to deny or laugh it off it all you want, but the FACT is that 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christians. With over 30% of the population in the Dem(liberal) camp, the math paints your denial dead wrong.

[Abbey Marie]

One atheist using the term doesn't establish ownership to the group. Abbey should have leveled her criticism at Gaylor. Just like most Christians don't subscribe to the Phelps' doctrine, most atheists don't subscribe to these idiots.

BTW, there are way more Christian liberals than atheist liberals.

I would agree with you, if I hadn't seen so many atheists do similar things before. After a while, you get a feel for what a group generally does and thinks.

[Wind Song]

Atheists should understand that Christmas is a commerical holiday, therefore a secular free market event. The tree issue is ridiculous. I support atheists when their kids have been bullied but not over the tree trip.

Here's the kind of lawsuit where atheists win:
Remember your Creator
in the days of your youth
An athlete is not crowned unless
he competes according to the rules
This is the will of God………..

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/11/02/faced-with-the-threat-of-a-lawsuit-indiana-high-school-removes-godly-sign/

[Gunny]

You atheists need to go smooch your own asses and STFU.

[Wind Song]

You atheists need to go smooch your own asses and STFU.

How Christ-like of you!

[Wind Song]

Atheist friends, neighbors, coworkers, and family are no less moral, no less loving, and no less American than religious Americans are. :salute:

[Missileman]

I would agree with you, if I hadn't seen so many atheists do similar things before. After a while, you get a feel for what a group generally does and thinks.

You think I should extrapolate that in general Christians think and act like the Phelps since there are so many examples of the Phelps in the news? Maybe I should also conclude that all Christians have no morals at all based on the numerous examples of clergy who molest children, do drugs, frequent hookers, steal money, etc.

[Missileman]

You atheists need to go smooch your own asses and STFU.

Go fuck yourself, Gunny and shut your own ignorant mouth.

[LuvRPgrl]

Teabagger is an atheist term? Strange, I don't recall ever using it.

Strange, I havent seen anyone claim TEABAGGER is an atheist term

[LuvRPgrl]

You can try to deny or laugh it off it all you want, but the FACT is that 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christians. With over 30% of the population in the Dem(liberal) camp, the math paints your denial dead wrong.

using your math, Christians outnumber atheists in every group possible except one:Those who oppose atheism.
Hence, your statement has about as much relevance as purple ball bearings.

[LuvRPgrl]

Atheist friends, neighbors, coworkers, and family are no less moral, no less loving, and no less American than religious Americans are. :salute:

Im assuming you have the same set of Biblical standards for non Christians as you do for Christians?

[Gunny]

How Christ-like of you!

Losers like you don't deserve God's grace. He gives it to your loser ass anyway.

[Gunny]

Go fuck yourself, Gunny and shut your own ignorant mouth.

Really.

You're a loser. You've been one for years and I've waxed your ass at will. How about YOU fuck off, pissant? You couldn't argue your way out of fucking kindergarten much less your lame-ass Gog hating bullshit.

Fuck off and die, fuckwit.

[Missileman]

Really.

You're a loser. You've been one for years and I've waxed your ass at will. How about YOU fuck off, pissant? You couldn't argue your way out of fucking kindergarten much less your lame-ass Gog hating bullshit.

Fuck off and die, fuckwit.

Only in your dreams asshole. You bring nothing to the table but the scribblings of ancient mid-eastern goat herders. That's why you're so defensive...you don't even believe in your own bullshit. You're debating skills are a fucking joke and the Bible is the punchline.

[Missileman]

using your math, Christians outnumber atheists in every group possible except one:Those who oppose atheism.
Hence, your statement has about as much relevance as purple ball bearings.

It's not my math idiot, it's a fact. "Teabagger" is a liberal slur, not an atheist one. As such, there are way more Christians who use it than atheists as there are wayyyyy more Christian liberals than atheist. How's that for relevant, moron?

[red states rule]

It's not my math idiot, it's a fact. "Teabagger" is a liberal slur, not an atheist one. As such, there are way more Christians who use it than atheists as there are wayyyyy more Christian liberals than atheist. How's that for relevant, moron?

"Christian liberals"

Are they the same Chirstians who support the slaughter of millions of unborn children every year and dismiss it as a "choice" and/or "medical procedure"

[Missileman]

"Christian liberals"

Are they the same Chirstians who support the slaughter of millions of unborn children every year and dismiss it as a "choice" and/or "medical procedure"

I see where you're going. You'd argue that those Christian liberals who use the term "teabagger" aren't real Christians. Well, those atheists who bitch about Christmas trees aren't real atheists.

[Abbey Marie]

I see where you're going. You'd argue that those Christian liberals who use the term "teabagger" aren't real Christians. Well, those atheists who bitch about Christmas trees aren't real atheists.

Fair enough. :cool:

[LuvRPgrl]

It's not my math idiot, it's a fact. "Teabagger" is a liberal slur, not an atheist one. As such, there are way more Christians who use it than atheists as there are wayyyyy more Christian liberals than atheist. How's that for relevant, moron?a

Yea, and there are waaaaaaaay more geniuses that are Christians, since there are so many more Christians
There are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more poor people that are Christians since there are so many more christians
there are " drivers " "

[LuvRPgrl]

I see where you're going. You'd argue that those Christian liberals who use the term "teabagger" aren't real Christians. Well, those atheists who bitch about Christmas trees aren't real atheists.ee

yea, except atheists for the most part are opposed to Christmas trees, or at the least you would have to say that most who are opposed to the trees are atheists
but we dont know how many christians are opposed to teabaggers.

[Missileman]

ee

yea, except atheists for the most part are opposed to Christmas trees,

That's quite a claim...back it up.

[red states rule]

I see where you're going. You'd argue that those Christian liberals who use the term "teabagger" aren't real Christians. Well, those atheists who bitch about Christmas trees aren't real atheists.

Where did I say people using that term were not Christian? The people who use that term are desperate to try and elevate their position by trying to smear their opposition.

Seems to me the atheists are the ones howling the loundest on this story unless I am missing something, and this atheist "leader" used the term to insult Gov Walker

I would like a Christian liberal to explain how they can be a Christian and support the murder of the helpless unborn at the same time

[LuvRPgrl]

Originally Posted by Abbeyhttp://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=504181#post504181):lame2:
Ah yes, calling a Christmas Tree a Christmas Tree is oh so offensive. But using the term "teabagger" is not. Gotta love those atheists.


Teabagger is an atheist term? Strange, I don't recall ever using it.
Abbey didnt say it was an atheist term, she said atheists use the term.

[fj1200]

Abbey didnt say it was an atheist term, she said atheists use the term.

Not exactly, she should have said, "gotta love that​ atheist."

[LuvRPgrl]

Not exactly, she should have said, "gotta love that​ atheist."


nope. Abby didnt say all atheists use the term, or they own it, or mostly only atheists use the term.
@What she did say is that "those" atheists, meaning the group of atheists who are in favor of not using the term christmas tree,
and even at that, she didnt say all of "those" atheists use the term,
if abby wanted to designate all atheists use the term, have to love atheists,

MISSLEMAN sounds like you want to go toe to toe again, I guess you dont mind getting your butt kicked by using inaccurarte analogies.
I'll be back tonight to oblige you.

[Missileman]

Where did I say people using that term were not Christian? The people who use that term are desperate to try and elevate their position by trying to smear their opposition.

Seems to me the atheists are the ones howling the loundest on this story unless I am missing something, and this atheist "leader" used the term to insult Gov Walker

I would like a Christian liberal to explain how they can be a Christian and support the murder of the helpless unborn at the same time

It was clearly your implication...one that you repeat in the last line of this post.

[Missileman]

nope. Abby didnt say all atheists use the term, or they own it, or mostly only atheists use the term.
@What she did say is that "those" atheists, meaning the group of atheists who are in favor of not using the term christmas tree,
and even at that, she didnt say all of "those" atheists use the term,
if abby wanted to designate all atheists use the term, have to love atheists,

MISSLEMAN sounds like you want to go toe to toe again, I guess you dont mind getting your butt kicked by using inaccurarte analogies.
I'll be back tonight to oblige you.

LOL! The only thing inaccurate around here is the self-appraisal of your debating prowess.

[Gunny]

Only in your dreams asshole. You bring nothing to the table but the scribblings of ancient mid-eastern goat herders. That's why you're so defensive...you don't even believe in your own bullshit. You're debating skills are a fucking joke and the Bible is the punchline.

You bring nothing to the table but junk fucking science that defies its own laws. You call me defensive? LMAO! Your ass hits every religion thread there is and has in the past 8 years I've seen your fool ass posting like you just can't stand ANY Christian getting a word in edgewise on your pathetic ass.

Try getting your punk-ass head out your ass, worthless one.

[Gunny]

I see where you're going. You'd argue that those Christian liberals who use the term "teabagger" aren't real Christians. Well, those atheists who bitch about Christmas trees aren't real atheists.

Yeah, you are. You are as bad as any. Whining your ass off any time someone mentions God or Christianity. You are the proof of your own losing argument. Try to not be so damned scared. After all, if you're right, no one will know it. If we're right, you're fucked.

[LuvRPgrl]

LOL! The only thing inaccurate around here is the self-appraisal of your debating prowess.

once again junior, I only mentioned debating you, not my overall debating skills, and besides, it isnt just my opinion.\\\
\I
there are a few others, at minimum, who pm ed me and said they like it when you and I go at it.

[Gunny]

How Christ-like of you!

I'm all kinds of Christ-like. You can have your opinion. Just keep it off me. You're wrong. Simple as that. People like you and Misseditallman need to just shut the fuck up and you'd never hear from me.

[red states rule]

It was clearly your implication...one that you repeat in the last line of this post.

Now it is an implication? :laugh2:

I have to admit you are very Christian like and very generous. Everytime you post something you give away your ignorance

[Missileman]

You bring nothing to the table but junk fucking science that defies its own laws. You call me defensive? LMAO! Your ass hits every religion thread there is and has in the past 8 years I've seen your fool ass posting like you just can't stand ANY Christian getting a word in edgewise on your pathetic ass.

Try getting your punk-ass head out your ass, worthless one.

Your ignorance of science is only eclipsed by your inability to tell the truth about my posting habits. I'll wager I've posted in less than half, perhaps even less than 25% of the religion threads.

[Missileman]

Yeah, you are. You are as bad as any. Whining your ass off any time someone mentions God or Christianity.

Too bad you can't back up that accusation with some posts, asshole. Your one lame dink whose shit is so weak he has to resort to lies.

[Missileman]

once again junior, I only mentioned debating you, not my overall debating skills, and besides, it isnt just my opinion.\\\
\I
there are a few others, at minimum, who pm ed me and said they like it when you and I go at it.

Did they pat you on your little head and tell you "you're winning"? That's so cute!

[Missileman]

Now it is an implication? :laugh2:

I have to admit you are very Christian like and very generous. Everytime you post something you give away your ignorance

Since I never said that you said they aren't real Christians, I'm not sure what your problem with what I wrote is. You did imply they aren't real Christians at least twice, why deny it?

[Missileman]

I'm all kinds of Christ-like. You can have your opinion. Just keep it off me. You're wrong. Simple as that. People like you and Misseditallman need to just shut the fuck up and you'd never hear from me.

Look, asshole! I'll post in any fucking thread I want to and if you don't like it, tough shit. You need to quit squealing like a little bitch and grow the fuck up. If you don't want to read what I have to say, put me on ignore. Better yet, just once, post a logical refutation of something I've written...not that such a thing is within your grasp. Maybe you can hire a surrogate.

[LuvRPgrl]

Look, asshole! I'll post in any fucking thread I want to and if you don't like it, tough shit. You need to quit squealing like a little bitch and grow the fuck up. If you don't want to read what I have to say, put me on ignore. Better yet, just once, post a logical refutation of something I've written...not that such a thing is within your grasp. Maybe you can hire a surrogate.

uh, the last five posts here by you have are nothing but insults, how can one logically respond to that?

[Missileman]

uh, the last five posts here by you have are nothing but insults, how can one logically respond to that?

It's four of five and I'm responding in kind.

[LuvRPgrl]

It's four of five and I'm responding in kind.

nope, and I knew you would make that claim, but you said, I WILL WAGER....making a bet has nothing to do with logic, and it started by calling Gunny names and a liar

[Missileman]

nope, and I knew you would make that claim, but you said, I WILL WAGER....making a bet has nothing to do with logic, and it started by calling Gunny names and a liar

You need to explain what's insulting in post #67.

And if you're trying to accuse me of starting the insulting posts in this thread, you're dead wrong.

[logroller]

Just trying to make sense of the disagreement here. I think its worth noting that not all Christians have Christmas trees, but most who put up Christmas trees-- do so as Christians.

I think why atheists get upset IS NOT because they think the Government should be more athiestic, but rather, nondenominational, ie no establishment of religion. Putting up "Christmas" trees on public land suggests otherwise.

[LuvRPgrl]

You need to explain what's insulting in post #67.

And if you're trying to accuse me of starting the insulting posts in this thread, you're dead wrong.
Yea, ok, that one was to RSR

and I never said anything in any way shape or form that you started it.

[Missileman]

Just trying to make sense of the disagreement here. I think its worth noting that not all Christians have Christmas trees, but most who put up Christmas trees-- do so as Christians.

I think why atheists get upset IS NOT because they think the Government should be more athiestic, but rather, nondenominational, ie no establishment of religion. Putting up "Christmas" trees on public land suggests otherwise.

And I'd wager that the majority of atheists could care less about Christmas decorations.

[LuvRPgrl]

And I'd wager that the majority of atheists could care less about Christmas decorations.

but yet they dont do anything significant to try to stop those with the same atheistic beliefs, to stop from acting like asses,

[Missileman]

but yet they dont do anything significant to try to stop those with the same atheistic beliefs, to stop from acting like asses,

So what? It doesn't make them a party to the complaining.

[red states rule]

Since I never said that you said they aren't real Christians, I'm not sure what your problem with what I wrote is. You did imply they aren't real Christians at least twice, why deny it?

My only comment about Christians was when I asked how a liberal can be both a Christian and support the slaughter of million of unborn babies by abortion

Good examples are Kerry and Pelosi

I also said I would like to hear their reasoning

As far as the topic of this thread, the idiots who get "offended" over Christmas happens every year and will continue as the "offended" get their tail feathers in an uproar over any hint of Christmas displayed in public

[red states rule]

Look, asshole! I'll post in any fucking thread I want to and if you don't like it, tough shit. You need to quit squealing like a little bitch and grow the fuck up. If you don't want to read what I have to say, put me on ignore. Better yet, just once, post a logical refutation of something I've written...not that such a thing is within your grasp. Maybe you can hire a surrogate.

Don't you have a terribly empty feeling...... in your skull?

[Missileman]

Don't you have a terribly empty feeling...... in your skull?

I haven't said anything out of line to you, why are you trying to start a flame fest with me?

[cadet]

I wonder when people will start getting upset and pissy about Hanukkah.

[LuvRPgrl]

So what? It doesn't make them a party to the complaining.
an
some would say they are being complacent. some wouldnt. its a matter or opinion. the person who stated the opinion obviiously thinks so, then you countered saying youi dont. thats all, then I stated why I think it is, thats about all there is to it
Personally, I think the whole thing is stupid. Just let people do what they want to do and leave them the hell alone, if someone wants to celebrate christmas, let em. If some part of the govt pitches in, so big deal. The govt pitches in much more on other more important issues, go after them for that instead of some stupid issue like endorsing christmas. Calling it chrismas isnt going to affect anyone except those that allow it to piss them off.
.......and they arent offended, they are pissed off because their attempt to totally eliminate christmas from out culture is being dealt a blow.
.
so, let me celebrate christmas and if you dont want to , then dont, just dont step in and try to ruin my christmas holiday, or in other words
THEY CAN JUST FUCK OFF (spoken in my best christian accent possible.)

[ConHog]

My only comment about Christians was when I asked how a liberal can be both a Christian and support the slaughter of million of unborn babies by abortion

Good examples are Kerry and Pelosi

I also said I would like to hear their reasoning

As far as the topic of this thread, the idiots who get "offended" over Christmas happens every year and will continue as the "offended" get their tail feathers in an uproar over any hint of Christmas displayed in public

I would imagine there isn't a single person who is truly outraged over any Christmas stuff. It's all pure manufactured faux rage. I mean seriously who they think they are fulling pretending they are all upset that some courthouse has a nativity scene in the front lawn? LOL they are so transparent. That's why I don't get upset at em anymore I just laugh and make fun of their faux rage.

[LuvRPgrl]

LOL! The only thing inaccurate around here is the self-appraisal of your debating prowess.

oh yea, yea yea, that reminds me, you still believe plants dont use minerals from the ground to help them grow?hahahhahahhaha

[Missileman]

oh yea, yea yea, that reminds me, you still believe plants dont use minerals from the ground to help them grow?hahahhahahhaha

That's a lie.

[logroller]

an
some would say they are being complacent. some wouldnt. its a matter or opinion. the person who stated the opinion obviiously thinks so, then you countered saying youi dont. thats all, then I stated why I think it is, thats about all there is to it
Personally, I think the whole thing is stupid. Just let people do what they want to do and leave them the hell alone, if someone wants to celebrate christmas, let em. If some part of the govt pitches in, so big deal. The govt pitches in much more on other more important issues, go after them for that instead of some stupid issue like endorsing christmas. Calling it chrismas isnt going to affect anyone except those that allow it to piss them off.
.......and they arent offended, they are pissed off because their attempt to totally eliminate christmas from out culture is being dealt a blow.
.
so, let me celebrate christmas and if you dont want to , then dont, just dont step in and try to ruin my christmas holiday, or in other words
THEY CAN JUST FUCK OFF (spoken in my best christian accent possible.)

Uh, it kind of IS a big deal. You can say its opinion, but that's not really what laws are supposed to be based on. I think its important for people to be respectful of other beliefs, because often is the case that when something is challenged it has unforeseen and undesirable consequences. Is Christmas a secular holiday? Clearly it is not; so govt putting up "holiday" decorations which pertain specifically to Christmas is an exercise of religion by the establishment, which isn't against the law; as there is no law made by Congress, it hasn't violated the 1st amendment. If anything, the law designating December 25th, Christmas Day, as a federal holiday violates the first amendment. If people continue to exercise their religious freedoms and snub their noses at those who dissent, you drive them to take legal action and could very well see the Christmas holiday vanquished at the federal level. Just saying, if you don't find a way to get along, you force the hand of government to intervene; and I don't think anyone here wants that to happen. :thumb:

[Missileman]

Uh, it kind of IS a big deal. You can say its opinion, but that's not really what laws are supposed to be based on. I think its important for people to be respectful of other beliefs, because often is the case that when something is challenged it has unforeseen and undesirable consequences. Is Christmas a secular holiday? Clearly it is not; so govt putting up "holiday" decorations which pertain specifically to Christmas is an exercise of religion by the establishment, which isn't against the law; as there is no law made by Congress, it hasn't violated the 1st amendment. If anything, the law designating December 25th, Christmas Day, as a federal holiday violates the first amendment. If people continue to exercise their religious freedoms and snub their noses at those who dissent, you drive them to take legal action and could very well see the Christmas holiday vanquished at the federal level. Just saying, if you don't find a way to get along, you force the hand of government to intervene; and I don't think anyone here wants that to happen. :thumb:

The Christmas tree is most definitely a secular decoration even thought it's associated with a religious holiday.

[logroller]

The Christmas tree is most definitely a secular decoration even thought it's associated with a religious holiday.

Agreed. I was merely saying that the insistence upon calling it, "Christmas", runs the risk of violating the standing law regarding the test for such displays.The precedence of the Supreme Court only requires it to have secular purpose, not be "exclusively secular." Therefore, they can call it whatever they desire, so long as it doesn't become exclusively non-secular. My point was that if, specifically when objections arise, people(esp. govt officials) argue
'we're a Christian country; therefore it's a Christmas tree', they run the risk of denouncing the secular purpose; thereby failing the legal test. Its best to just say, 'whatever, call it what you want, as will I."

Honestly, this probably much ado about nothing, I doubt there's any widespread objection over what they call the tree. Just a few loud ones who like to argue over religion. The loudest, I'd venture to guess, are actually the Christian right who like to make an issue over this to promote their religion, not the secularists who oppose it.

[Missileman]

Agreed. I was merely saying that the insistence upon calling it, "Christmas", runs the risk of violating the standing law regarding the test for such displays.The precedence of the Supreme Court only requires it to have secular purpose, not be "exclusively secular." Therefore, they can call it whatever they desire, so long as it doesn't become exclusively non-secular. My point was that if, specifically when objections arise, people(esp. govt officials) argue
'we're a Christian country; therefore it's a Christmas tree', they run the risk of denouncing the secular purpose; thereby failing the legal test. Its best to just say, 'whatever, call it what you want, as will I."

Honestly, this probably much ado about nothing, I doubt there's any widespread objection over what they call the tree. Just a few loud ones who like to argue over religion. The loudest, I'd venture to guess, are actually the Christian right who like to make an issue over this to promote their religion, not the secularists who oppose it.

I disagree on the insistence part. It is a Christmas tree...it's always been a Christmas tree. Calling it something other than a Christmas tree serves no purpose.

[logroller]

I disagree on the insistence part. It is a Christmas tree...it's always been a Christmas tree. Calling it something other than a Christmas tree serves no purpose.

but it hasn't, this is why promoting it as a Christmas tree does the history of the tradition a disservice. Read more here--http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html

[red states rule]

I would imagine there isn't a single person who is truly outraged over any Christmas stuff. It's all pure manufactured faux rage. I mean seriously who they think they are fulling pretending they are all upset that some courthouse has a nativity scene in the front lawn? LOL they are so transparent. That's why I don't get upset at em anymore I just laugh and make fun of their faux rage.

So why did Santa get kicked out of a cancer treatment center?

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?33343-Cancer-center-s-Santa-gets-boot

I guess middle of the road folks like you can dismiss the "offened" libs when they try to put a damper on the Chirstmas seaon for the rest of us. I prefer to expose them and subject them to the public ridicule they deserve

[Missileman]

but it hasn't, this is why promoting it as a Christmas tree does the history of the tradition a disservice. Read more here--http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html

I guess I missed it, but I didn't see it called anything other than a Christmas tree in that whole article.

[logroller]

I guess I missed it, but I didn't see it called anything other than a Christmas tree in that whole article.
Greens/ evergreens---that's what Christmas tree is.

King Tut never saw a Christmas tree, but he would have understood the tradition which traces back long before the first Christmas, says David Robson, Extension Educator, Horticulture with the Springfield Extension Center.The Egyptians were part of a long line of cultures that treasured and worshipped evergreens. When the winter solstice arrive, they brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death.
The Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a fest called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. They gave coins for prosperity, pastries for happiness, and lamps to light one's journey through life.
Centuries ago in Great Britain, woods priests called Druids used evergreens during mysterious winter solstice rituals. The Druids used holly and mistletoe as symbols of eternal life, and place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits.
Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early traditions.

The history of Christmas tradition, including the evergreen, lights and gifts, the time of year its celebrated, even, as I pointed out earlier on in this thread, obnoxious attire like Xmas sweaters, owes its history to secular, even heathenish traditions; yet this isn't the story which is told about Christmas; but rather, it's a celebration of Jesus's birthday (which was actually in late summer, not about the winter solstice) The real story of Christmas is how to spread Christian doctrine by adopting secular beliefs-- Which people are free to do, but not govt.

[LuvRPgrl]

Agreed. I was merely saying that the insistence upon calling it, "Christmas", runs the risk of violating the standing law regarding the test for such displays.
The issue is not about us calling it a Christmas tree, but rather that many of us dont want some group to come along and force us to start changing how we celebrate the holiday. Leave us alone, we will leave you alone.

.The precedence of the Supreme Court only requires it to have secular purpose, not be "exclusively secular." Therefore, they can call it whatever they desire, so long as it doesn't become exclusively non-secular. My point was that if, specifically when objections arise, people(esp. govt officials) argue
'we're a Christian country; therefore it's a Christmas tree', they run the risk of denouncing the secular purpose; thereby failing the legal test. Its best to just say, 'whatever, call it what you want, as will I."


Honestly, this probably much ado about nothing, I doubt there's any widespread objection over what they call the tree. Just a few loud ones who like to argue over religion. The loudest, I'd venture to guess, are actually the Christian right who like to make an issue over this to promote their religion, not the secularists who oppose it..
so, what evidence do you have if any, that leads you to such a guess?

[LuvRPgrl]

[QUOTE=logroller;505207]but it hasn't, this is why promoting it as a Christmas tree does the history of the tradition a disservice. Read more here--http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html[/QUOT

America has a long standing tradition of adopting other traditions and then making them uniquely American by changing them.
Otherwise we wouldnt be Americans, we would just be transplants from whereever our ancestors came from.
How it started or use to be is irrelevant for our discussion, as it is now a Christmas celebration as a Christmas tree, and thats all that really matters for our purposes.

[logroller]

but it hasn't, this is why promoting it as a Christmas tree does the history of the tradition a disservice. Read more here--http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html

America has a long standing tradition of adopting other traditions and then making them uniquely American by changing them.
Otherwise we wouldnt be Americans, we would just be transplants from whereever our ancestors came from.
How it started or use to be is irrelevant for our discussion, as it is now a Christmas celebration as a Christmas tree, and thats all that really matters for our purposes.

The adoption of the tree tradition took place well before America existed; the tree didn't really gain popular practice in America until the great depression, as nursurymen looked for another market for their product. So the only thing uniquely American about the Christmas tree is the commercialization of Christmas. Is that all that really matters for our purposes? I suppose you're right on the money.

[Gunny]

Who gives a f*ck what atheists think? Fact is, if Christians made as much noise and whined and cried and soiled their diapers like atheists do, they'd annoy me too.

The difference between the usual morons, missileboy being the most prominent and broken record ... I've never told him to believe anything. Not any other atheist. The atheists are the ones doing all the jaw-jacking.

Try shutting your damned mouths, huh? For all his talk, MM has consistently whined in EVERY religious thread on this board and USMB before that with the same lame shit but he to this day couldn't tell you what most Christians on this board believe. Why? No one can get a word in edgewise around his squalling about HIS religion of non-belief.

[Gunny]

Athiests & 2609

A winning combination.

[Shadow]

So why did Santa get kicked out of a cancer treatment center?

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?33343-Cancer-center-s-Santa-gets-boot

I guess middle of the road folks like you can dismiss the "offened" libs when they try to put a damper on the Chirstmas seaon for the rest of us. I prefer to expose them and subject them to the public ridicule they deserve

Yeah...I didn't get that one either. When asked the following was brought up...

The director of the state chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union declined comment but pointed to the association's national website. It said while "some limited governmental celebrations of Christmas are not per se unconstitutional ... the burden for the government to show that its activities do not have the purpose or effect of endorsing a religious message is high."


How exactly is Santa a religious symbol?

[logroller]

How exactly is Santa a religious symbol?
Santa is Saint Nicholas--revered highly among orthodox denominations.

He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the shoes of those who left them out for him, and thus became the model for Santa Clause, whose modern name comes from the Dutch Sinterklaas. -wikipedia

[Shadow]

Santa claus has also been said to have pagan roots.

Numerous parallels have been drawn between Santa Claus and the figure of Odin (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Odin), a major god amongst the Germanic peoples (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Germanic_peoples) prior to their Christianization (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Christianization). Since many of these elements are unrelated to Christianity, there are theories regarding the pagan (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Germanic_paganism) origins of various customs of the holiday stemming from areas where the Germanic peoples were Christianized and retained elements of their indigenous traditions, surviving in various forms into modern depictions of Santa Claus.[13] (http://www.debatepolicy.com/#cite_note-12)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus

At any rate...in our culture he was always more of a commercial/universal character. Giving gifts world wide to ALL good children.

I Just think he was more of a melding of several cultures,and has never really been tied to ANY religion specifically.

[red states rule]

Christmas liberal style


http://www.strangepolitics.com/images/content/112600.jpg

[Shadow]

Christmas liberal style


http://www.strangepolitics.com/images/content/112600.jpg


They just gotta suck the life out of everything little thing...don't they. Must suck to be so miserable all the time.

[red states rule]

They just gotta suck the life out of everything little thing...don't they. Must suck to be so miserable all the time.


The ACLU was their own take on Christmas, and we know how much the left loves the ACLU

http://www.strangepolitics.com/images/content/104407.jpg

[Missileman]

For all his talk, MM has consistently whined in EVERY religious thread on this board and USMB before that with the same lame shit but he to this day couldn't tell you what most Christians on this board believe.

You're a fucking liar! You should take your own advice and STFU!

What else should we expect from a self-proclaimed real Christian except the violation of a holy commandment at the drop of a hat?

[red states rule]

You're a fucking liar! You should take your own advice and STFU!

What else should we expect from a self-proclaimed real Christian except the violation of a holy commandment at the drop of a hat?

Now I know why the only place you are ever invited is outside

[Missileman]

Now I know why the only place you are ever invited is outside

You don't know anything. You're an internet parrot. A proficient copy and paster without the capacity to form your own opinion.

[red states rule]

You don't know anything. You're an internet parrot. A proficient copy and paster without the capacity to form your own opinion.

But you seem to post on my threads and respond to my posts son. Calm down and take a pill

Why not lower your blood pressure and slit your wrists?

[Missileman]

But you seem to post on my threads and respond to my posts son. Calm down and take a pill

Why not lower your blood pressure and slit your wrists?

I have to usually wait for someone other than you to post in your threads so I have something intelligent to respond to.

To ensure your genes don't pollute the pool, why don't you go fuck yourself?

[Abbey Marie]

This has gotten too ugly to be of any further use. Closed.