Remains of war dead dumped in landfill

[red states rule]

This made me sick when I read this. Is there ANYTHING the government can do right? There is no excuse for this kind of disrespect to those who gave everything for this country





The Dover Air Force Base mortuary for years disposed of portions of troops’ remains by cremating them and dumping the ashes in a Virginia landfill, a practice that officials have since abandoned in favor of burial at sea.

The mortuary in Delaware, the main point of entry for the nation’s war dead and the target of federal investigations of alleged mishandling of remains (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/air-force-mishandled-remains-of-war-dead-probe-finds/2011/11/08/gIQABKuE1M_story.html), engaged in the practice from 2003 to 2008, according to Air Force officials. The manner of disposal was not disclosed to relatives of fallen service members.

</ARTICLE>
Air Force officials acknowledged the practice Wednesday in response to inquiries from The Washington Post. They said the procedure was limited to fragments or portions of body parts that were unable to be identified at first or were later recovered from the battlefield, and which family members had said could be disposed of by the military.

Lt. Gen. Darrell G. Jones, the Air Force’s deputy chief for personnel, said the body parts were cremated, then incinerated, and then taken to a landfill by a military contractor. He likened the procedure to the disposal of medical waste.

Jones also could not estimate how many body parts were handled in this way. “That was the common practice at the time, and since then our practices have improved,” he said.
Gari-Lynn Smith, portions of whose husband’s remains were disposed of in the landfill after his 2006 death in Iraq, said she was “appalled and disgusted” by the way the Air Force had acted. She learned of the landfill disposal earlier this spring in a letter from a senior official at the Dover mortuary.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/remains-of-war-dead-dumped-in-landfill/2011/11/09/gIQAz7dM6M_story.html

[logroller]

"body parts"....:puke:

[red states rule]

"body parts"....:puke:


So you find this story funny LR? Or am I missing something here?

[logroller]

So you find this story funny LR? Or am I missing something here?

Perhaps it is I who am missing something. Since when is puking meant to imply humor?

[red states rule]

Perhaps it is I who am missing something. Since when is puking meant to imply humor?

We may have another glitch in the board. When I made my post I could have sworn it was LOL icon

Perhaps I need to get to the optometrist once I am done with the dentist

My apologizes LR

[logroller]

We may have another glitch in the board. When I made my post I could have sworn it was LOL icon

Perhaps I need to get to the optometrist once I am done with the dentist

My apologizes LR
Ah, no worries. The dentist eh? Maybe your teeth hurt so bad you can't see straight; hopefully the dentist will kill two birds with one stone.

[red states rule]

Ah, no worries. The dentist eh? Maybe your teeth hurt so bad you can't see straight; hopefully the dentist will kill two birds with one stone.

No, the tooth is doing great. I had a crwon put on and the nerve was fired up. The Dentist gave me some pain meds and an antibiotic and all is well now

Back to the tpopic at hand, I do hope the asshole who approved this is fired, loses all pension and retirement benefits, and is publicly branded for this

and all criminal charges that can be pressed are pressed

[fj1200]

What was criminal?

[red states rule]

What was criminal?

Off the top of my head there has to be a law against the improper disposal of human remains

[fj1200]

Off the top of my head there has to be a law against the improper disposal of human remains


Lt. Gen. Darrell G. Jones, the Air Force’s deputy chief for personnel, said the body parts were cremated, then incinerated, and then taken to a landfill by a military contractor. He likened the procedure to the disposal of medical waste.

Seems proper.

[red states rule]

Seems proper.

Proper if you have no moral convictions, a human conscious, or zero respect for the dead

[fj1200]

:rolleyes: I thought we were talking about criminal activity.

[red states rule]

:rolleyes: I thought we were talking about criminal activity.

Gee, now dispoing of human remains is on the same level as disposing of medical waste

I do need to get up to speed on the new norms being set

It is criminal to improperly dispose of human remains at a damn landfill. It is amazing somone like you FJ would yawn over something as digusting as the treatment of our war dead

[fj1200]

You brought up criminal and as far as new norms, they've updated their procedures since '08 presumably. Also, the remains of our fallen soldiers had already been returned to their families and properly buried.

[red states rule]

You brought up criminal and as far as new norms, they've updated their procedures since '08 presumably. Also, the remains of our fallen soldiers had already been returned to their families and properly buried.


Last I checked it is criminal to improperly dispose of human remains

From the OP:

The Dover Air Force Base mortuary for years disposed of portions of troops’ remains by cremating them and dumping the ashes in a Virginia landfill, a practice that officials have since abandoned in favor of burial at sea.

The mortuary in Delaware, the main point of entry for the nation’s war dead and the target of federal investigations of alleged mishandling of remains (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/air-force-mishandled-remains-of-war-dead-probe-finds/2011/11/08/gIQABKuE1M_story.html), engaged in the practice from 2003 to 2008, according to Air Force officials. The manner of disposal was not disclosed to relatives of fallen service members.


They did it in secret, the families were not told, they since have stopped, The Feds investigated the CRIME, and it is shocking to me the yawn being offered in response to this
story

[fj1200]

Last I checked it is criminal to improperly dispose of human remains

From the OP:

The Dover Air Force Base mortuary for years disposed of portions of troops’ remains by cremating them and dumping the ashes in a Virginia landfill, a practice that officials have since abandoned in favor of burial at sea.

The mortuary in Delaware, the main point of entry for the nation’s war dead and the target of federal investigations of alleged mishandling of remains (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/air-force-mishandled-remains-of-war-dead-probe-finds/2011/11/08/gIQABKuE1M_story.html), engaged in the practice from 2003 to 2008, according to Air Force officials. The manner of disposal was not disclosed to relatives of fallen service members.


They did it in secret, the families were not told, they since have stopped, The Feds investigated the CRIME, and it is shocking to me the yawn being offered in response to this
story

Yes, improper disposal is likely criminal; what was criminally improper of the alleged mishandling?

[red states rule]

Yes, improper disposal is likely criminal; what was criminally improper of the alleged mishandling?

How about what the allegedly dumpoed at the landfill

I guess it would take too much time to bury the remains at the Tomb of the Unknown in Arlington

Yea, that would make sense and honer the dead

Can't have any of that right?

[fj1200]

Appalling; not criminal. I'm glad that they've updated their procedures.

[red states rule]

Appalling; not criminal. I'm glad that they've updated their procedures.

Reminds me of your defense of R's on spending FJ. You are way to willing to accept whatever crumbs are offered up and act like you are lucky to get them

I do hope noone in your family ended up in the landfill

It seems they only updated their "procedures" only after getting caught

[fj1200]

:rolleyes: They got "caught" in 2011, they updated their procedures in '08.

[red states rule]

:rolleyes: They got "caught" in 2011, they updated their procedures in '08.

Something happened to make then change their behaviour. I doubt it was guilt or a sense they were doing something wrong

[fj1200]

Anything criminal? Who directed them as to proper practice?

[red states rule]

Anything criminal? Who directed them as to proper practice?

FJ you are amazing. In the OP it clearly states the Feds opened a criminal case. You really should replace Carney as Obama's Press Sec

I did not expect anyone here to excuse the remains of our war dead tossed in the landfill - but I was wrong

[fj1200]

So charges were filed and people are now in jail?

But please continue to create my position for me and base that on facts not in evidence.

[red states rule]

So charges were filed and people are now in jail?

But please continue to create my position for me and base that on facts not in evidence.

Anything you say Jay

I guess if you were a alwyer for these cruds you would offer a plea deal and have them plead guilty to littering

Thnk you for your support of the troops FJ. I am sure they are grateful

[fj1200]

^Melodrama much?

[red states rule]

^Melodrama much?

No, you proved me wrong

I did not think anyone would blow off the treatment of our war dead.

I am sure you will not want to discuss this topic at your local VFW

[fj1200]

I simply asked what was criminal and at whose direction did they act?

[red states rule]

I simply asked what was criminal and at whose direction did they act?

and that has been answered

Simply because you want to ignore the answer (like you did with the spending "cuts" the R's did not get in their budget deal) is not my probem

[fj1200]

and that has been answered

Simply because you want to ignore the answer (like you did with the spending "cuts" the R's did not get in their budget deal) is not my probem

Neither has been answered by you but I found it anyway. They were civilians working under Air Force direction and are the whistleblowers in question. The Federal investigation is being done on behalf of the civilians that blew the whistles on their Air Force supervisors.


The three whistle-blowers said they went outside the chain of command after their supervisors failed to address problems there."In house, it was falling on deaf ears," Zwicharowski said.
All three said the Air Force retaliated against them. Parsons said he was fired in 2010 but reinstated almost immediately, while Spera and Zwicharowski said they received letters of reprimand. Zwicharowski also said he was put on administrative leave for eight months and at one point was labeled "mentally unstable."
The Office of Special Counsel, an independent agency within the federal government, is investigating the claims of retaliation.
Air Force spokesman Todd Spitler declined to respond directly to the claims of retaliation but said the actions of the whistleblowers have resulted in changes at the Mortuary Affairs Operations center.
http://news.yahoo.com/dover-mortuary-whistle-blowers-shocked-problems-231804309.html

[Abbey Marie]

This line from the article is interesting:

...and which family members had said could be disposed of by the military.


It sounds like the families could have asked for the ashes from the body parts if they wanted them, but declined?

[fj1200]

^True, it seems to me that you would be reopening old wounds if more remains were returned later. What galled me was the lack of respect in some of those cases, more-so since they were under military direction.

[Abbey Marie]

^True, it seems to me that you would be reopening old wounds if more remains were returned later. What galled me was the lack of respect in some of those cases, more-so since they were under military direction.

It should go without saying that we treat our war dead with the utmost respect. I'm really surprised that this was done. I'm also surprised the families declined, if that is the case.

[Noir]

Why are the remains not sent to relatives?

[Psychoblues]

Why are the remains not sent to relatives?

Noir, the article reports the disposal of unidentifiable body parts found on the fields of battles. That's pretty self explanatory to me and considering that my daughter and I are veterans and could have been dismembered in battle I can assure you that I would certainly want our identifiable remains properly handled and respected. Insofar as those remains that could not be identified I would certainly give the military permission to dispose of them even if they could be tissues from us. Some may be squeamish about the practice of cremation, incineration and disposal of those unidentifiable ashes into a landfill, into a lake or even into a commode. I'm not. But, I am happy that the practice has been changed and I'm also happy that no criminal charges have been filed, no one is being put in jail, a few Air Force officers have been relieved but I'll guarantee you they will continue to serve out their careers or be allowed to retire at full pay and benefits and that is a good thing.

Psychoblues

[red states rule]

Noir, the article reports the disposal of unidentifiable body parts found on the fields of battles. That's pretty self explanatory to me and considering that my daughter and I are veterans and could have been dismembered in battle I can assure you that I would certainly want our identifiable remains properly handled and respected. Insofar as those remains that could not be identified I would certainly give the military permission to dispose of them even if they could be tissues from us. Some may be squeamish about the practice of cremation, incineration and disposal of those unidentifiable ashes into a landfill, into a lake or even into a commode. I'm not. But, I am happy that the practice has been changed and I'm also happy that no criminal charges have been filed, no one is being put in jail, a few Air Force officers have been relieved but I'll guarantee you they will continue to serve out their careers or be allowed to retire at full pay and benefits and that is a good thing.

Psychoblues

And here I always thought the Tomb of the Unknown was where those reamins were to be buried

Amazing PB how you foamed at the mouth and wanted Pres Bush being tossed in a jail cell over how he protected America; yet you also yawn over human remains being tossed in a landfill and are happy no charges will be filed - and the fools who came up with this plan will servbe out and collect their retirement

[Psychoblues]

And here I always thought the Tomb of the Unknown was where those reamins were to be buried

Amazing PB how you foamed at the mouth and wanted Pres Bush being tossed in a jail cell over how he protected America; yet you also yawn over human remains being tossed in a landfill and are happy no charges will be filed - and the fools who came up with this plan will servbe out and collect their retirement

I guess it is amazing to you, rsr. If you understood the article you would also find it amazing that families are offered up any identifiable remains and are protected and respected as they certainly should be. In the case of "unidentifiable" remains all kinds of questions tend to come up. I would be willing to expect the US taxpayers to spend a few million dollars in each case doing DNA analyses and using every tool available to properly identify the remains but thus far that has not been deemed practical or a reasonable use of funding.

I am a veteran, rsr. I can assure you that the prior practice of the disposal of unidentifiable remains was in keeping with then existing regulations. No crime or dereliction of duty has been charged or demonstrated that I have been made aware of.

I've already given you my feelings in the event my remains may have been co-mingled with those of another or even of a horse, pig or whatever. Have you ever been on a battlefield collecting remains, rsr? I don't think you have. It's a messy deal, don't you imagine?

My opinions in this case are based on my experience as a member of the Armed Forces of the United States, a thinking pragmatic and careful considerations. That generally removes most propensities towards faux rage and misplaced concern.

Psychoblues

[Gunny]

:rolleyes: They got "caught" in 2011, they updated their procedures in '08.

WTF is your problem? Not a big deal to you, huh?

Disgusting. You AND them.

[red states rule]

WTF is your problem? Not a big deal to you, huh?

Disgusting. You AND them.

It is sick to see the lack of outrage on this story Gunny

[fj1200]

WTF is your problem? Not a big deal to you, huh?

Disgusting. You AND them.

Didn't really read the whole thread did you?


What galled me was the lack of respect in some of those cases, more-so since they were under military direction.


It is sick to see the lack of outrage on this story Gunny

Why do you want an Air Force official to go to jail?

[Nukeman]

I'm going to start off by saying that IF any full body parts that were IDENTIFIABLE were disposed of then this is appaling, now the article states that these were "pieces" found AFTER the remains were sent state side to the families.

The "body parts" in question were very small pieces that were difficult or imposible to identify, after a burial has taken place for the soldier what is the family to do with finger they just found or the ear?? Personaly I would rather they cremated and disposed instead of "SENDING" me an additional part of my child.... The wound really does not need to be reopend.

This truely is being sensationalized and every attempt to pull at heart strings is taking place with this article. Are those of you here really saying that if your son/daughter lost their life and they were sent state side for full burial and 6 months later a "finger" was found that belonged to them you want the AF to send you that finger???? This is what we are talking about here small pieces from explosions not whole remains.. As appalling as it may seem what would you have them do with the pieces.

If I am not mistaken the FAMILY was asked if they wanted the remains in question and they replied NO....... So if the family was OK with it why are you not.. After all it is their decision not ours..

Red, do you understand the Tomb of the Unkown soldier?? they do NOT place EVERY unkown body part there, there is an Unkown Soldier burried there who is representative of ALL Unkown soldiers.....